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An Extraordinary Union by Alyssa Cole
14 Plays22 minutes ago
Welcome to the first Smut Report book club! We’ve done buddy reads before, of course, but this year we’re going a little more unstructured. Our plan is for each of us to take a turn picking a book to read—any book, for any reason—and our discussion may be based on a specific idea or it may simply be a discussion of what the book is doing on its own merits.
Our first book discussion is An Extraordinary Union by Alyssa Cole.
Show notes at smutreport.com/podcast
Recommended
Transcript
Introduction to the Podcast and Book Club
00:00:03
Speaker
Hello and welcome to the Smart Report podcast and welcome to our inaugural episode of the Smart Report book club because we are making our buddy reads just an official book club. Why make it more complicated than it needs to be?
00:00:17
Speaker
right I mean, that's what we've been doing basically. But but now we're just calling it book club. Yeah. Just book club. We don't need to make any fancy stuff. We don't need to like do themes unless we really want to. Well, going to do a pirate. the The bracket is guys. The bracket is not the same as book club, though. Let's be clear about this. There's no time for that in the calendar right now. You will take those brackets out of my cold, dead hands. Everyone loves the brackets.
00:00:45
Speaker
Well, I'll fight you on this. o TBD. TBD. So we have it it's not on the calendar. So who knows when that's happening? I'll make it happen.
Book of the Month: 'An Extraordinary Union' by Alyssa Cole
00:00:54
Speaker
This month, I, Erin, have selected an Extraordinary Union by Alyssa Cole for our book club buddy read.
00:01:03
Speaker
So let's get started. as I said, I'm Erin. I'm Holly. And I'm Ingrid. So funny enough, I don't know if you guys saw that Julia Quinn is running a Kickstarter for your you to get like beautiful bound editions for like sprayed edges historical romances. like one month for a year and they've announced the the first three books and an extraordinary union is one of them oh wow so that's happening i i don't know if the kickstarter is live yet if it is i'll put that in the notes and if not then i'll put like the announcement about it at forthcoming in the notes that's really cool Yeah, but the first book is going to be a new
Initial Impressions and Character Dynamics
00:01:47
Speaker
Eloisa James. So I think it's going to be a mix of new published books that are getting published through Kickstarter and reprints. So the first three are a new Eloisa James, which is going to be single POV first person. And I do not like that. Like, that's why I read historicals. I don't want Not Your Mama's historicals. Anyway, that's a rant for a different time.
00:02:06
Speaker
And then An Extraordinary Union and Lord of Scoundrels, also classic. Oh, so all right. Okay. Sorry, fearless leader. we derailed you. Let's talk about our book. Lead us. Okay. Take us back. There we go. Let us talk about our book.
00:02:22
Speaker
So we're going to try something a little different also. We're doing lots of different things today. Instead of doing each of us our one sentence summaries, we're going to take a turn breaking down our heat factor character chemistry and plot summaries that we include at the beginning of all of our reviews. And then we'll each give our overall impression. Okay. so the heat factor is this.
00:02:46
Speaker
It's there, but not intense. It's more yearny than Bernie. Oh, like that. More yearny than Bernie. Yep. Yearny than Bernie. Cool. it's more yearny than Bernie. Yes.
00:02:56
Speaker
More angsty than in your pants-y. Panksty. More angsty than panksty. All All right. Well, before that gets too derailed, ridiculous rhymes. The character chemistry is i don't trust you, but you're hot.
00:03:16
Speaker
So hot. Can we modify that at all? I don't trust you. Well, for for Malcolm, it's like, oh, my God, there has never been a more amazing woman in the universe. Yeah, I was going to say, I don't trust you, but you're is Elle. And Malcolm is like... And Elle is like, I don't trust you, but you're hot.
00:03:37
Speaker
Yeah. Kind of in that tone, even. Yes. and She's like... so yeah very low ah Yeah, she has a very low threshold for bull honky. And he's like, I'll take all of you, including any bull honky you may have. Yes. So...
00:03:54
Speaker
Exactly. Yeah. Okay, so the plot is Malcolm and Elle are both undercover in Richmond, Virginia during the Civil War. Elle is posing as a slave in a senator's household, and Malcolm is posing as a Confederate officer, soldier, unclear.
00:04:17
Speaker
Confederate somebody. And they work together to gather information for their boss, Abraham.
00:04:33
Speaker
I mean, right? Yeah. There were a couple times I was like, huh. because yeah They were like, for Abraham. Yep. We're friends of Abe. It's like, if you're a friend of Abe, then okay, I can do this. You're right.
Exploring Power Dynamics and Historical Context
00:04:47
Speaker
Okay. So overalls. Ingrid, what is your overall impression then? I had a bit of a time with this one because i was so sensitive about this book. Oh my gosh.
00:05:01
Speaker
I was just sitting there like it was like I didn't have skin for Elle and it was really difficult. So I will say this. If I weren't in i can't handle life, I'm too sensitive mode, I would say this. Overall, the book is gripping and it's definitely got spy vibes. I think it's a little bit lighter on the romance.
00:05:23
Speaker
Hmm. for me, my overall takeaway was, and I feel like I should add a caveat here that because I read so many books, I have sometimes I'll read a book and I'll just be like, I don't care about this.
00:05:38
Speaker
ah And I would rather read ah the stuff that was really engaging to me. So this one was a little bit that for me because when they were having their pants feels or having sexy times, I was like, let's get on with the spy stuff. yeah There's exciting things happening. We don't have time for this. ah yeah So that was my situation. It was more of a, I would have liked it almost to be a closed door romance and focus on the thriller kind of elements. You know that the tension, the ah like subplot tension is chef's kiss when you're like, oh my gosh, I don't need to hear about how good it feels when he puts his hand on your pants, get moving like that.
00:06:21
Speaker
something else entirely, entirely. So Polly, what was your overall? So this is a reread for me. i have read this book before several years ago. Okay, Holly, did you cry?
00:06:34
Speaker
No, i didn't cry. i all right I didn't. I did not cry. For me, i like I found the most interesting part of this book to be their really complicated way that they' that their chemistry works together, right? And how they're trying to navigate what this relationship is and their power dynamics between them. And, like, I know that Malcolm is supposed to be like, really, he's like, so gone for her, and really trying to not exert his power over her. But there are a couple of times when he's just like, but I'll do anything to have her and like,
00:07:10
Speaker
i don't know how I feel about how this hits for me you know like i don't know how I feel about me right these particular dynamics but Alyssa Cole is kind of is aware of them and she's playing with them and they're really complex and fleshed out and dynamic mom and I think that that for me is the greatest strength of this book I have this on my list of things to talk about but I want to know if Holly since this is a reread has your initial impression shifted i guess or has your overall impression shifted from your initial read to now I'm gonna go look up my old review and see what I said Okay. In my initial overall, I said an excellent romance with a bonus lesson on how to be a good ally.
00:07:47
Speaker
yeah. so I feel like, yeah. And I feel like i was much more enthusiastic about the love story the last time around and more enthusiastic than either of you were about like the love story. Yeah. I mean, I probably would have been more enthusiastic about everything five years ago too. Let's be honest.
00:08:07
Speaker
So we're just different readers in a different place right now. Okay, but I do want to talk about this. So I think this is a great place to start with their relationship because there's the spy versus spy element going on So that comes with trust, right? Initially, Elle meets Malcolm and neither of them knows that the other is anything but what they seem to be. right So when she goes to meet her quote package, it's him. And she's like, hold on.
00:08:34
Speaker
How do I know if I can trust you? Which for me, I was like, Come on. I mean, the spy game is the spy game. There's always a little bit of like, who do I trust? But like you were given this information by a trusted source. But anyway, so it's the spy versus spy. There's the trust inch issue going on there with the spy versus spy element. But there's also the trust issue going on, especially for Elle, as she is kind of unwillingly falling in love for a white man who has...
00:09:00
Speaker
Absolutely all the power, all the power. And yeah I want to talk about also, we'll get there, but how he is so unaware of how much power he has at some moments that he gets himself into a pickle. So let's go. Ingrid, you were going to say something. I think you were also going to try to ask a question or...
00:09:17
Speaker
flesh some No, well, I was just, i was going to go on. Holly had said about like how he said, you know, I'll do anything for you. And I wanted to touch on kind of like, it might bleed into the allyship thing. But when I was reading it, because of the way that his relationship with violence against women kind of tends to crop up here and there. When I was reading it, I didn't read it as like, I will do anything to have her. I read it as i will do anything to have her. And in my head, it felt more like I will listen. i will find that tenderness. I will soften myself because she is so angry for a good chunk of the book.
00:09:52
Speaker
And it was so important that he accommodate that anger, like that he allow it to exist. And so when I was reading it, when he said, I will do anything to have her, I wasn't hearing that. And so I'm really, I probably would have normally. And I wonder if five years ago, I would have read it the exact same way. And maybe I was just looking at it differently in light of just the world that we live in now. But I think I was paying more attention and maybe wanting to see him allow her the power of that anger you know what I mean that's interesting but it's possible I just wanted to see that yeah I think I read it a little bit more like Holly did at least I think like Holly did but where when I read those moments it was after Elle had been like leave me alone This is a problem for me. Like, yeah yes, there's anger. There's so much anger. And I think we can get into that, too, when we get into some of the historical narrative stuff. But she also knows that it is dangerous for her. Right. Like he he is a white man and she is a black woman. And yes, she is not really enslaved. She is playing a role. She is thinking differently. I will get out of this when I go, by when the submission is over. But she's still but she that he can do anything. And she can't say anything yeah if right and they have a relationship with her. her being
00:11:15
Speaker
technically a free woman like is meaningless if she's playacting a slave in the south Well, right and meaningless let's also clarify, this is looking at the time and oh my gosh, I'm about to pull an errand. It's also really important to look at like the exact time in Civil War history that this is happening because this is happening when, well, dang it, what's that act where there was this period of time where it didn't matter if you were free.
00:11:39
Speaker
Yeah. If you looked like a slave. Yeah. Yeah, the Fugitive Slave Act, they could just grab you. And that was that. And it didn't matter. And there's the subplot about yeah her old boyfriend from up north who was born free and was taken. And she is able to buy him and rescue him. And he's a very minor side plot. But the third book is about him. But just pointing out that like she is functionally a slave at
Character Motivations and Societal Influences
00:12:05
Speaker
this point in time. And she knows she has resources, more resources than the average person.
00:12:10
Speaker
slave to be able to escape at that point because she has connections but okay and training yeah and training has yeah i want to come back to this we're gonna if i go forward we're gonna derail it but i fabulous fact as i was reading this i also read the small and the mighty by sharon mcmahon and so she goes it's like it through history you know lesser known names in history doing historical things And there was a time when, like, Black women in particular were not considered citizens at all. ok Because they were no longer property, but they didn't have rights to do other things, right? They didn't have rights to...
00:12:51
Speaker
be a full citizen. And so there was this no man's s land of time. So that's also a consideration that if you don't have that historical background, and I didn't have that historical background before, and I was a history major, but I focused more on labor history. So yeah, but let's stick with this power differential issue. Now we've given a foundation. Like going back to this, like Malcolm and the way he's feeling about Elle. Can I just read a very short passage? Yes.
00:13:15
Speaker
Okay. And this is towards the end of the book. This is from chapter 15. So when it came to people, Malcolm always knew when he had someone hooked, it was something he just felt like hunger or thirst. He was more certain about Elle than he had about been about anything in his life. Yet he couldn't feel anything tying her to him other than his will that she have him.
00:13:39
Speaker
And that was the line where I was like, like, like i is this icky? I'm not sure. You know? and I think this is after they've had sex. I think this is, they're like kind of staring down the end of their mission and they're like, all right, we've gotten most of what we need.
00:13:55
Speaker
And tonight, We're extricating ourselves from this situation. Peace and out. And at this point, she still is like, you know, I like you for now. You're a great partner to work in the field with. But once we give our reports, see you later. Yeah. So that's interesting. I see what you're saying there. I think in that particular instance, I felt like that was an insecurity on his part.
00:14:19
Speaker
It is. and there There's nothing security to keep her with him except for the fact that he wants her to stay with him. Right. But it's like maybe it was I felt like it was this culmination of the whole time their whole relationship was based on his strong desire to keep pulling at her and pulling in her. And yeah, I don't think I actually finished my thought because I got sidetracked by the the historical Yeah. Components. But he is pursuing her. Like I said, it's dangerous for her to choose him. And so when she says, no, I cannot do this for reasons.
00:14:56
Speaker
And they're not just like, I like you, but I don't want you. You know, they're like... For real, like... They're not because like, oh, my long lost love. Yes. Yes. It's like, if something goes wrong, i lose every time. And then he's like, but I'm going to continue to pursue you, even though you said this to me. Yeah. No, you're right. Advocating for the author here.
00:15:17
Speaker
I want to recognize the discomfort that we the readers felt... hmm. when we were seeing him try to approach this like any other relationship yeah i've got to have you you're the one for me i'm so in love with you i'm fascinated by you and can't leave you alone right so doing it one time not going to be as effective Like, yeah, here's here's the scene that really drove this home for me, because because I you know, I hate that kind of discomfort. I really don't like it. But in this book specifically, and I think, again, had I read this before, I'm not sure I would have seen what the author was doing as well. Because, look, I'm a white lady. There are experiences that I I just don't have organically. Well, in this scenario, watching her, like feeling that discomfort repeatedly and feeling that sense of danger and discomfort was important for me to get it. And then when yeah I was simultaneously, she's angry because she's like, you know, yeah, you're a good looking dude.
00:16:21
Speaker
I could still die. Like, this is bad. you You got to leave me alone for my own safety and well-being. You got to leave me like leave me alone. This is bad for me. Right. Mm hmm. Mm hmm. Because I recognize the anger. I'd like to think I'm, you know, with it emotionally enough to recognize what was going on. But what just about broke me in the part where I was like, I feel like I'm going to die if I keep reading this book. It was just too much for me. It was when they're intimate. And she's's she kind of breaks down because she's like, I've been sitting here trying to avoid this exact situation that I'm entering into willingly. And I cannot turn off my ingrained training that I'm not safe and that this is bad.
00:16:58
Speaker
Do you know what Yeah. That was really heartbreaking. And to include that in a romance novel, like romance novels are supposed to be once we finally bang, safe with
Romantic Narrative and Historical Realism
00:17:09
Speaker
you.
00:17:09
Speaker
Right? But in this one, Alyssa Cole, you are you are forced to sit there and look at this guy and realize that he is... the hero in this book and it still doesn't mean she's safe and it still doesn't mean she's, she can relax and it still doesn't mean that it's going to be okay. And that even when they finally are intimate, that her life is such that she can't relax. This isn't the the beautiful moment that other characters get to have because of the the position she has in life.
00:17:37
Speaker
And I just, said yes, the, the muddiness and the gray, but it's, you can't even gray area with the way that he's not getting her position and her vulnerability. I'm I think it's so important as the author. if she had yeah If she had let up on it in any other, if she had let up on it, it would not have been as powerful. She had to do it.
00:17:54
Speaker
No, I 100% agree with what you're saying. And I guess in the way the conversation's going, it's making it sound like me feeling weird about Malcolm and his pursuit is a bad thing. Right. Yeah.
00:18:06
Speaker
And I get it It's not. It's, it means that this book is more complicated and is not a book where I can just be like, yes, I 100% feel yeah good. la la not Like I 100% feel good about this pairing. Yeah. And I would say that she mostly gets the reader there.
00:18:26
Speaker
I would say given their situation and the fact that she is not rewriting history and she can't erase the power differentials and the fact that I According to Aaron, in four years, Elle is going to suddenly no longer be a citizen at all, not just through three fifths of a citizen. Yeah. and given all of that, i think that Cole does get me there as close to there and feeling good about their relationship as is possible. giving up history Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I agree with that. I was going to add that i guess the flip side of the coin that Ingrid was talking about.
00:19:02
Speaker
it was very jarring, eye-opening forefront of my brain for me that Malcolm, even though he was trying to be the best guy, and just like, oh my gosh. I will always remember Holly being like, oh, my big beautiful brain and whenever we had that conversation. Yes.
00:19:26
Speaker
even though he was like just a hundred percent so earnestly trying to be a good man He was still approaching the relationship with his lens of the privilege of a white man. at The whole situation, he was just still kind of lacking the awareness of the degree of privilege under which he was operating.
00:19:51
Speaker
Can you give an example? Some of the best examples aren't even like necessarily interpersonal between them. But like, for example, they have to send off their reports and he just sends off his report and he's like, cool.
00:20:04
Speaker
She's brilliant. I got some stuff. We did our stuff. Everything's great. And she sends off her report and then she gets some information back and she's like, did they not listen to me because I'm a woman? Yeah.
00:20:16
Speaker
or because I'm a black woman. and you know, he didn't even think about that. Or how about the scene where, let's simplify it and take it back to the relationship, where he sees her in the hall early in the book when Mary kind of walks in on them. He's like flirting with her, kind of like borderline canoodling with her in the hall. And...
00:20:35
Speaker
He's like, oh, man, that was a bad idea. That could have been bad. But like she was aware that it was a bad idea from the get go. But he just, you know, we all for the potential outcomes, all we have is the context of the experience that we've lived and like the knowledge that we've pulled inward. And so he just doesn't have that same context or awareness that she does. And so he's like, yeah, you know, like.
00:20:56
Speaker
I really like her. I'd never do anything to hurt her, but he has no concept of like you trying to canoodle with her in the hallway is hurting her. It could put her at risk, you know? Right. And it's, it's just, he can have weak moments, but she can't have weak moments. Yeah. There's also the part where he is just, and this is not relating to Elle so much at all, but Elle's,
00:21:15
Speaker
She's masters. Not really. It's a complicated situation, not just because she's a spy, but like the house that she's working in there's the daughter of the house and the daughter of the house is the kind of person who okay, illustratively, for example, Malcolm walks in on her in a shop where she is trying to use her position in a social group. to scare the shop owner into lowering the price of the thing that she wants because no good confederate would sell for that much and she's gonna go tell all of her ladies in the ladies league that he might be a spy for the north you know kind of a thing and so she is she is very manipulative mm-hmm
00:22:00
Speaker
Oh, she was. I loved her. She was terrible. She was terrible. Oh, we needed her. And she was and her mother was like abusive to her. So you kind of see there's a scene where she is the product of her situation. She's not just like some one dimensional soul like sociopath. Yeah. Evil other woman. Yeah. So she's been pursuing Malcolm because he's a hot new thing. He's the hot new item in town. And so they end up alone together in her father's study, right? Or something like Her father's office. And he thinks that she's going to show him some plans that they are trying to get.
00:22:35
Speaker
but he's alone with her in a room if this were a regency romance the guy would have been like no i could never be in a room alone i'm going to get trapped but he's just like oh yeah everything's fine here and she manipulates that situation to the point where his life is in jeopardy right it's a bad situation and he is just like it doesn't even occur to him Right. that That somebody could be playing him.
00:23:01
Speaker
Right. That he thinks the whole time that he is playing her and she is playing him instead. Yeah. So that was interesting to me. But that's another I feel like that's another illustration where we get his I thought it was really well done. cool.
00:23:14
Speaker
To be to put this in. Right. Because he is in most ways. He's a hyper competent hero. He's like a standard romance hero. He's really tall. He's got black hair. He's got big shoulders. He's got pretty muscles. He's Scottish.
00:23:32
Speaker
He's really good at people. He's like really good at talking to people. He's like a perfect shot. The one time he has to shoot somebody, he does it with perfect accuracy. True. Like he's really good at what he does, but still, you know, it's like Greek tragedy. It's his who his hubris is his downfall.
00:23:49
Speaker
Classic. yeah Okay, so this seems like a good spot to shift to this like historical fiction situation we've got going on here. And let me explain what I mean.
00:24:02
Speaker
ah When I say that historical romance can do two things. Well, historical fiction can do two things. One is illuminate history that people might not already be aware of. Right. So an author chooses a story, sets it in a situation where some historical like real historical information can be illuminated. Right. So I think in this case, what we've got is, you know, it's not the white political history that we all learn in our school. This is like much more in the social weeds of black history in the United States. Okay. So that's one. The second kind of element that we get here is historical fiction as a method to illuminate the current issues that we experience now. but using the remove of history to give us some space. Right. So i love that in this book. I love the way that both of those things kind of occurred in this book, especially, like I said, I was reading The Small and The Mighty at the same time. It's like, oh my gosh. Actually, I have some thoughts about, so with respect to Illumination of like Modern Times. Oh, this was so hard to read. Yeah. So, so good what do you guys think? What do you think? What do you think about this? Well, okay. So this was published in 2017. wow.
00:25:27
Speaker
oh which was also during the bad times but like that when we thought it was the baddest times yeah we thought it was so bad we were wrong um oh god and so i i've read the whole trilogy and like the whole thing is just like so full of rage Because I feel like a lot of Alyssa Cole's historical fiction, historical romance, is I think it's almost all interracial.
00:25:54
Speaker
it It is. All of it takes place in the United States and is about like race in America. And they are about the work that has to happen, but are deeply optimistic for the future. And these books are still holding on to that optimism and the acknowledgement of the work. But they're, I feel like they're just so angry at the middle that this bullshit is still going on. Yeah, that's an interesting observation or an interesting way to frame that. Because as I had not read these before. I've read a lot of historical fiction that talks about a lot of issues, right? That is still, you know, relevant mental health stuff, whatever. Or, you know, women's rights, you know, like thinking of my Regency romance reading. So yes, a lot of this was like, oh man, this is still extremely relevant.
00:26:49
Speaker
but But also, sorry, the harping on the so the small and the mighty. I just I feel like this is one of those times when historical understanding deepens fictional understanding or how I'm interpreting stuff. And I've been reading a lot of like social history stuff since last year.
00:27:09
Speaker
And it's just absolutely infuriating. It is rage making. And it is like, well, many people, mostly people of color or people who are already in marginalized communities have said this has been going on forever. You just didn't know because it wasn't your problem before. yeah And yeah, I mean,
00:27:27
Speaker
yeah Yeah. All kinds of things have already happened in the United States to marginalized people. And I won't get into like the specific history, but in this context, I felt like the historical fiction component of it.
00:27:46
Speaker
i mean, I was able to draw a lot of parallels, but I care, you know? And I felt like when I finished, I wonder if the historical lens gives people too much room to be like oh I'm glad it's not like that anymore yeah you know well I could I could see that I'm gonna be honest with you I'll be honest with you because you know how I was really struggling with this one last night because what happened is is that I'm reading this book while I'm tracking the news and checking in with because you know i used to live in Minnesota so checking in with people from Minnesota and
00:28:23
Speaker
Yeah, I feel like that is definitely, definitely, i have definitely worn those blinders in the past where I've been like, oh, man, look at how far we've come. So glad that this is like better, you know. and well and that's not untrue.
00:28:39
Speaker
it is. it was. Broadly speaking, better. what but well, let's yeah And i feel like one thing that I'm understanding differently, like when I was reading this book with these different goggles on, right, was while I'm reading this romance, right, I'm looking at these two and I'm like, oh, because even when they were like sorting out their issues together, I just really wanted to picture them like in Kentucky in their little cabin, you know, with their family and like, you know, they just mind their own business and they get to have the life they want, right, you know? And I'm suddenly aware of that they are always,
00:29:14
Speaker
it does even if they get that there's always going to be that undercurrent of a lack of safety yeah and that when thinking about that i'm sitting here and i'm like that's just never gone away ever it's never gone away so yeah you can pass whatever laws you want even at the end of the civil war like they're good they're free you know like well yeah but like anti-miscegenation laws were on the books until like 100 years later Right. Yeah, right. But like you sit there and you're like, oh, but they freed the slaves. All good. Checkbox, you know, but i think a lot of people don't understand that it just wasn't like that. So then, you know, the frustration with like, oh, just let it go. Wasn't that bad. We've come so far. No, not really.
00:29:56
Speaker
So I don't know. It was difficult reading it because it was just like, yeah,
Character Development and Relationship Progression
00:30:02
Speaker
yeah. There was, i read it with an awareness. It would have been so much more comfortable if I could have gone back to my comfortable little suburban white lady viewpoint where I was like, oh good. They got away from the slavers and they're in their cabin now, but it's just, you can't do that. But that's why I have to give, i was so impressed with how Alyssa Cole, like she didn't shy away. This is a romance novel and she did not shy away from creating those moments of important discomfort you know what i mean that was ballsy and fantastic and she did it in a way where I feel like it wasn't in your face overt that takes skill like she crushed it was really good and it's interesting because you're you know you're talking about how you want to be able to picture them in their cabin in Kentucky at the end And then being happy. And the thing is, i could picture them in their cabin being happy in Kentucky. Like, Alyssa Cole did it enough where I could take a step back. And and I'm just thinking about, like, we've talked, it I think we talked about it again, like, in a podcast a few weeks ago, about the French, that French Revolution book, right? Where I could not turn my brain off. And maybe it's just because... For the French Revolution, I know what's coming is like basically war is coming. And whereas for them, what's coming is like, just kind of slow attrition of. like social bullshit yeah so so maybe that's what the difference is is like i like there's not there's not an event coming it's just there's kind of like like a slow seeping lack of safety rather than i see where you're i see where you're going with that because i have that issue reading some historical narratives so i was like oh man Kind of like the French Revolution. It's like the Battle of Culloden. There was something else I was like, this is not... there was Maybe it was one that I read. It was set during Reconstruction. And then i was like, oh, no. like I know what's coming after this. It was good for a second. And now it's not going to be good.
00:32:02
Speaker
And yeah, I think for me, my i felt i was like, okay, like people find their happiness. People find their happiness in uncomfortable, hard, challenging, whatever times. Like, I guess this is also maybe a conversation about where romance falls in the space between pure comfort reads and realism, you know, where it's like people can still be happy and life is not all butterflies and rainbows. But I did think about not an event, but the fact that they were going to be living in a community and have to deal with that community and that community's prejudices and like how their kids would be treated in that community. And, you know, hopefully they have a welcoming community that's a small town and people know them and care about them and... And it won't be a big deal. It will won't be a big thing. But like their children are going to be technically illegitimate. They're also going to be biracial. You know, like. Right. All these things I'm like, man, so many things could just be really hard going forward. And it's kind of like, I really hope that they land in a good place and can continue to rely on each other and their family. You know, like that. was where That's our happy ending. I'm not sure I can trust everybody else in the world, but okay, let's lend optimistically. Well, and I do think it's interesting that, you know, he does in the book, he does have an example for that. Or was it him or her that had friends where it was like, it was him, ah the German fellow and his wife, you know? So like he has some frame of reference for how it could be. And he knows it's not going to be easy, but they have each other and they build something, you know, with with people and it's okay. But, you know, that also broke my heart because I was like, but I just, I feel like it just stinks so much that it has to be. yeah the standard is so much lower. Yeah.
00:33:55
Speaker
But it was, for me, it wasn't even like, oh, the white people. Cause I could see the exclusion from both the white community and the black community. You know what i mean? It's not just, it's not like, oh, we can easily find another spot for ourselves over here with this community. It's like, you really have to intentionally look for your found family. Let's tie into all of our yeah of our conversations. Yeah. Yeah.
00:34:19
Speaker
So, yeah, I feel like when you're just going into a romance for like pure escapism or just like just to feel good, you know, this is not maybe that. But it did a really good job of doing what it was trying to do. i think. yeah Even if I was like, oh, close the door. I'm just let's get on with the excitement. But Ingrid, you made a really good point about for why it should be open door. well no. And I think actually...
00:34:45
Speaker
All the sex scenes did a lot of work about their relationship, right? Because there there's a later one where she takes control in the bedroom. Like in the first sex scene, she's just like, okay, you make me, I want you to make me feel good. Give me some comfort. Like, I am going to take myself out of this and like, you just make me feel good. And then later, there's another scene where she is like, nope, I'm in charge. And I'm gonna make us both feel good this time. And I mean, and so it's very intentional. They're very, the scenes are very intentionally building on their relationship and specifically about Elle's feelings about the relationship. So I don't think it would work closed door, even if you guys were like, Let's get back to the excitement. Mine was just, mine was just, so there were so many layers of discomfort that were important layers, but it was just one of those things where I was like, normally scenes with intimacy are, they release some of that pressure.
00:35:41
Speaker
a And these were not doing that particular job. So it it was just, it was intense. But I will, I was going to say, so you know, we're talking about their happily ever after and just knowing too much and and stuff. And I will say that I think the part that made it okay for me, can I just, can I read a little clip of it? Is this. So they're going to bed and he says, do you think things will ever be put all right? He asked all of this devastation, all of this loss. She sidled up against him beneath their warm blanket. I don't know. She said, I want to tell you yes, but I can't see into the future. The only thing I know for sure is that I love you. And I think I always will. And like, I don't know. Well, it just kind of works because it's one of those things where it's like, that's the grounding, right? Right. You can't control all this other stuff. It would be really easy to be like, well, because otherwise, how many periods in history would we have to black out? Like, none of these people get happily ever afters. Like, you know, they're they're trying to figure it out
Themes of Vulnerability and Empowerment
00:36:32
Speaker
their own way. And, you know, they're not going into it being like, we're go to have a great life together. hmm.
00:36:37
Speaker
They're just going to yeah you make a really good point about other periods in history, too, because there were points when I was reading this where I was like, it's very clear here because she is a black woman and he is a white man. And the power differential is very clear. It's less clear, usually in i keep on going back to Regency romance because that was my, you know, origin story where they're both white and maybe around the same class. Maybe there's a little class difference, but women in Regency romance also did not have rights.
00:37:07
Speaker
Right. Exactly. Like they were completely subject to their husband. It's like all of their property, if they got married, became their husband's property. They like marital rape. What's that? Right.
00:37:19
Speaker
And yeah, exactly. So it occurs in other places, but it's so much less apparent. It's so much less obvious. though it still existed. Yeah. Right. So they're still, they still have to find their happiness within the framework of that legality or that legal structure or that social structure. Right.
00:37:32
Speaker
Right. It's just a lot easier to pretend that that's not a thing. Right. if we're If we're just like dukes in a ballroom. Right. Yeah. Well, and I i also think that one of the, i don't know that it's a newer trend, but like there are a lot of books, you know, historical books that are trying to cope with that. I think we're more aware of that kind of forced vulnerability in a lot of these books because like women can't own property and you can't divorce and buth blah, blah, blah, blah. And like the forced dependence on. Mm-hmm.
00:38:01
Speaker
Yeah.
00:38:09
Speaker
the guy put a property in her name or we know like they're trying to like do what they can to have the hero be the good guy by not being like the other men of his time you know what i mean Hashtag not all dukes. like Not all dukes, man. Yeah, right. So it's like, so what do you do? Is a good guy in these situations where there's there is no way out of having this like forced dependence, this like, you know, societal imposed vulnerability, right? What do you what how how do you how do you depict a good partner who is naturally more powerful. And it's, you know, like, do you orchestrate scenarios where she gets to take back some of that power? Do you have her grapple with that and see enough that it feels like a safe bet to put her life in his hands? I mean, what do you, how do you depict that? And so this was just really interesting because it wasn't just that she was a woman. It was...
00:38:59
Speaker
in the greater context, there were so many layers of powerlessness. And it was just, I thought, you know, she really thought through how to, she didn't shut, she didn't, she didn't do the opposite of that. She leaned into every layer. Right. Yeah.
00:39:11
Speaker
Yeah. Right. Exactly. Oh man. I'm glad I picked this one for this month. Cause it's been on my TBR since 2019 or 2018. I was like, this is the year. And I feel good about reading it with you.
00:39:27
Speaker
reading it with you I, it kind of feels like, you know, when you go to the gym and you're like, I don't want to go to the gym. And then afterwards you're like, okay, that did feel good. You know, like taking a shower or whatever. So, cause I, I am not partaking of the adult beverages at the moment. And when I was reading this, I was like, I, this is, I, this was not the time for me to give up.
00:39:47
Speaker
my like twice a week glass of wine you know what I mean this is not the time it just was like all of it lined up but you know what I muscled through and it felt so good and I have to say I I really loved this book it was so good it was it wasn't and it wasn't easy but it would have been that's the thing it would have been so easy like when I read it back in the day with my comfortable little blinders on But I liked it. I appreciated it so much more at the way that the craft of it and everything now. So I'm glad that I read it when I read it.
00:40:18
Speaker
It was very good. Okay. So can I ask you guys like a random off-topic question about this book in your opinion? Yes. Please. I'm very curious. Okay. we've talked in the past about how, for example, authors including made up song lyrics and poetry is the worst. Yeah. Zero out of time. you guys think that Cole's use of quotes in this book was effective or distracting? I was like, okay. Okay.
00:40:50
Speaker
But I don't, I guess it ties into her character. um Well, first, it ties in a few different ways, right? Because there's no TV. Yeah. So in historical periods, first of all, people, people used to have better memories. Like people used to be able to, I was in, I was a history major. I took a class on Elizabethan England or Queen Elizabeth actually. And we were studying,
00:41:14
Speaker
the Spanish Armada in particular and the like first person historical accounts of that day recounting in particular Elizabeth's speech are basically the same so like they multiple people who saw her giving the speech wrote it down afterwards and they're almost identical Right, because they're not standing there with paper. They're almost identical. So this is how historical memory has worked in the past, right? People were very good at using their brains to collect information. We are less reliant on that kind of information right now or that kind of telling because we have just use other resources to record. yeah and then And so we don't do it anymore. you know So in that way, first of all, for entertainment purposes, and second of all, just because of the way that they were using their brains, it totally tracks that these characters would recite excerpts of poetry to each other. yeah or Yes, exactly. And also the fact, so the second layer here is that Elle has an eidetic memory.
00:42:11
Speaker
It's like purely eidetic too, right? It's like reading and visual. Yeah. So she can see or read anything and recount it perfectly. right And so that also illustrates this part of her character where she can read anything and recall it with perfect acuity. So she always has a reference for any given moment or opportunity. So in that regard, i got it.
00:42:34
Speaker
I was like, okay, here's where we are. This
Quotes and Historical Authenticity
00:42:37
Speaker
totally tracks. But I still was like, oh, man, I didn't take English for a reason. Yeah.
00:42:44
Speaker
Stop making me think about poetry. Sorry, Ingrid. I'll be honest. It didn't bother me not even a little bit. like oh normally yeah Normally, I'd be like, this is the worst. I absolutely hate this. Yes, we get it. You're brilliant. But for some reason, like the only part of me that I remember while reading that was like, ugh, was because I was sitting there and i was going, how come I can't remember anything?
00:43:04
Speaker
i can't quote. So- Kids will tell me knock-knock jokes and I'll be like, I'm going to remember that one and it's gone. You know what I mean? I can't remember anything. So I'm sitting here and I'm like, dang it, not only is she – do you remember that conversation you had, Erin, where you were like talking about how people can just connect art together, you know, in like a synergistic thing? I'm always so impressed.
00:43:24
Speaker
but Right. so I had my Erin moment where I was like, I'm so annoyed that I cannot do this. Like I'll read a quote and be like, oh, yes, that is so – I would love to be able to repeat that in the right setting someday and I can't do it. So that is the only thing that annoyed me. holly What about you? Okay, so i'll I'll be honest, I when they quote things, I just kind of like skim the quotes. so I, I'm like, okay, I acknowledge what this is doing, and the work it's doing, but I'm not in like deep quote analysis at this point. You know, I'm just like, all right, you guys are like reciting some poetry to to each other. Like, that's cute.
00:44:02
Speaker
Thank you. So I guess I'm kind of in the middle. it It doesn't annoy me, but it wasn't like, oh yeah, this really adds to the story for me. Yeah. I mean, I guess, except in the way that like,
00:44:13
Speaker
They do use it as ah like a bonding experience. you know It's a thing that connects them to each other. Because for Elle, reciting poetry also like has kind of some trauma associated with it.
00:44:27
Speaker
Because when she was a kid, she would go around on the abolitionist circuit and be like... look like black people have brains too and I can recite all this poetry but the way he responds to her poetry recitation is I think one of the most effective ways that it builds the connection between the characters Yeah, especially that's true, especially because when it kind of starts off, she's like, Scottish poets. And he's like, what? What?
00:44:56
Speaker
I love Scottish poets. Eventually, even though they're not her favorite, maybe she can find a, what is it, by Burns or something that resonated with both of them, you know, in the moment or something. It's nice. Yeah. oh Yeah, that's a good question. I didn't even think about that. Okay. Okay.
00:45:13
Speaker
I feel like, I don't know, we don't really have anything else to talk about unless you guys have other burning questions. No, and since it's book club, we don't really have recommendations to give either, do we? Oh, good point. like In the future, we could talk about read-alikes unless any of you guys can think of a read-alike
Conclusion and Next Book Preview
00:45:29
Speaker
right now.
00:45:29
Speaker
ah No, but I will strongly recommend the whole trilogy. The third book in particular, which is about Daniel, L's friend, the free man who was captured by slavers and sold into slavery in the South.
00:45:43
Speaker
The book about Daniel is amazing. And it is so messy. And I want to say probably the angriest of the three books. Yeah.
00:45:55
Speaker
I want to say it was came out around when the Black Lives Matter stuff was going on. So it was like, or she was writing it. that i I'll have to double check the date on that one. But it, um an unconditional freedom is the third one. But the second one is also nice. It's about Malcolm's brother. So, you know, fun connection there. But i don't know. if Does anyone else have other recommendations that are kind of related?
00:46:21
Speaker
Well, I feel like some Beverly Jenkins historicals where she's tackling yeah similar issues. right Like I read Indigo. i felt like that one was really, i liked Indigo. Okay. But speaking of next time, I'm going to take us out, even though Erin's in seeing, because that's just how we roll. Next time we're reading Swordheart. by T. Kingfisher. And Ingrid will be our fearless leader in book club. i'm so excited. And if you want to read along, we'll be doing that kind of towards the end of February. So like read it in February and then you can also tell us what you think of Swordheart. And give us questions of that you want us to talk about too.
00:46:58
Speaker
Oh yeah, that's a good idea. And that conversation is probably going to be a lot less serious than this one. And...
00:47:09
Speaker
Anyway, the show notes will be at smutreport.com slash podcast. And you can talk to us on social media and maybe we'll respond to you.
00:47:22
Speaker
But if we don't, it's not because we don't like you or we think we're too cool. We're just tired. Yeah. Yeah. But before book club, if you need more Smut Reports people talking in your ears, you can tune in every week for tumble reads in between.
00:47:39
Speaker
book club conversations but I have no idea what our tumble reads conversation is going to be next time because that's just chaos and until then keep it smutty folks that's my report