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#96 Matthew Roberts - 2015 USS Theodore Roosevelt Gimbal UAP & High Strangeness
526 Plays1 year ago
In 2015, Matthew Roberts was a US Naval service member stationed onboard the USS Theodore Roosevelt when the Gimbal UAP was seen and recorded. Subsequently, he transferred to the Office of Naval Intelligence in Washington D.C. where he began to have frequent, and often intense, personal experiences with the phenomenon. He discovered through a long, painful, and terrifying journey that the truth of the phenomenon has deep and profound implications for the future of the human race. He is also the author of Initiated: UAP, Dreams, Depression, Delusions, Shadow People, Psychosis, Sleep Paralysis, and Pandemics.
Matthew Twitter: https://twitter.com/Matthew82571642
Matthew's Book: https://www.amazon.co.uk/Initiated-De...
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Matthew Twitter: https://twitter.com/Matthew82571642
Matthew's Book: https://www.amazon.co.uk/Initiated-De...
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Transcript
Introduction & Podcast Context
00:00:01
Speaker
You're listening to the Anomalous Podcast Network. Multiple voices, one phenomenon.
00:00:37
Speaker
Welcome back, everybody. It is great to be here. As always, lovely to see everybody here in the live chat. All I ask as usual, if you just keep it cordial and polite, then that'd be great.
00:00:50
Speaker
Normally, my interviews go for around an hour, but some of you may have seen that I'm actually carrying an injury at the moment. I've torn a calf muscle. So as I'm sat now, I'm not in too much bad pain. I've took some painkillers. But if it gets really bad, I've mentioned to Matthew as well that we may go a little bit shorter, but we'll just see how we go. So I just wanted to put that out there. So yeah, let's not waste any more time.
Matthew Roberts: Military Background
00:01:14
Speaker
I'd like to welcome my guest today, Matthew Roberts. Matthew, how are you?
00:01:19
Speaker
Good. How are you Vinny? Thank you for having me. I'm not bad at all. Thank you. Thank you for being here. I think the best thing to do really is just to give a bit of a background on yourself, if you don't mind, which led you to sort of joining the military, if you don't mind.
00:01:32
Speaker
Um, yeah, well, uh, what led me to joining the military is that I liked, I really liked traveling. And, um, I thought to myself, well, you know, I, I was going to join the military. So I figured what branch of the military is going to have me traveling the most. And I, being on a big gray floating ship, um, seemed to be the best option, you know, cause you're constantly moving. Um, yeah.
00:01:58
Speaker
And so I definitely loved seeing the world and traveling. So that was kind of why I chose the Navy. And I wanted to choose an interesting job. I didn't want to just do anything.
00:02:15
Speaker
that you would typically think of as being a naval seafaring job.
Role as Naval Cryptologist
00:02:25
Speaker
So I decided to go into cryptology. And that's how I became a naval cryptologist. So what does that entail exactly? Well, it entails quite a bit of school to learn how to do your job. It's very complex. I work with a lot of
00:02:44
Speaker
complex equipment. It's a very highly technical job and it's a subset within intelligence. It signals intelligence is what I did all day long.
Initial Skepticism on UFOs
00:03:03
Speaker
So in your sort of younger years, again, before you joined the military with regards to the UFO subject, what was your level of interest, if any at all? I had I had absolutely no interest in it whatsoever, to be honest. You know, I would see like ancient aliens come on TV and I kind of rolled my eyes and
00:03:24
Speaker
changed the channel. Anytime I saw someone bringing it up, it was just like, okay, time to walk away now. I have no interest in this whatsoever. And I thought it was just the realm of tinfoil hats and conspiracy theories. I didn't think that there was anything to it. And I didn't think it was at all interesting, to be honest. I just,
00:03:52
Speaker
me and UFOs were not something that went together. That's understandable and I've met a lot of people that are like that and then obviously since they've maybe had an experience or a sighting it's you know it's a paradigm change to them so yeah I can understand that.
2015 UFO Events & Ship Exercises
00:04:09
Speaker
So let's lead up to kind of what happened in 2015. I mean everybody's familiar I think with the
00:04:16
Speaker
the gimbal and the go fast videos. But am I right in saying that you were stationed at the time in off of Oceana in that kind of training range? Yes. Yeah, we were we were we were the ship was actually stationed at a Norfolk, Virginia at the time. And so we were doing our workup cycle and that.
00:04:36
Speaker
entailed kind of going down by Florida like we often did because we were an aircraft carrier. I mean, our job was to capture planes, catch them and catch and release all day long. That's what we would do. Pilot proficiency training, they would come and land on the deck.
00:04:58
Speaker
And we would do that kind of thing all day long. But this time we were doing our workups, our workup cycle, getting ready for deployment. So they put you in these situations where they say, OK, you're off the coast of this or that hostile country. And then they throw these scenarios at you to see how are you going to react. And they'll test the entire ship, right? We'll go into this.
00:05:27
Speaker
you know, play acting scenarios of, you know, there's a missile inbound port side and it's just hit the side of the ship and all the way from the skipper down to the lowliest seaman on the ship, you know, how are you going to react to that and how well are you going to do it in terms of flooding, putting out fires, getting the word out that this has happened to you, that you've been attacked,
00:05:56
Speaker
You know, and it's just and and that's what we were doing out there at the time. And did you have a good relationship with a lot of different people on the ship, you know, whether it be the pilots and things like that, was it was it like a group thing or was it was it quite separated?
00:06:12
Speaker
Um, you know, it was really, it was quite separated for me, uh, in my particular job. Uh, so we worked, uh, in a skiff on the ship. Um, which everybody's heard a lot about this with, you know, on the news with the Trump documents and things like that. But, but a skiff is just where you keep sensitive compartmented classified information.
00:06:40
Speaker
And so that was where I worked. And of course, not everyone had access to this space. There was an access list. So it was very tightly controlled who was coming and going. So I didn't really see a lot of people throughout the course of my day. I just kind of stayed in there. And I would communicate from there whatever I needed to communicate to people.
00:07:05
Speaker
But the pilots, I did see them coming and going from the flight deck all the time.
00:07:13
Speaker
my space just so happened to be by one of the ready rooms. So I would see pilots coming and going all day long. And I, and in fact, when, when the two pilots that came forward on the show unidentified, when they came forward, I was watching that show and I was like, Oh yeah, I recognize them. I remember them. Cause I would see them in the hallways all the time, you know, coming and going from the ready rooms.
00:07:41
Speaker
So how many squadrons did you have? Because obviously Ryan Graves from the Red Rippers was the more than one sort of group on the... You know, I didn't even really get into it much. I don't really know how many squadrons we had. We had like a helo squadron. We had the fighters, obviously, then a marine squadron.
00:08:06
Speaker
I don't know. There might have been more than I might be leaving someone out. I don't know. That's fine. No problem at all.
Encounter with Gimbal Footage
00:08:12
Speaker
So let's bring it right up to the day or around the time of these interactions with these objects. How did you first hear about it and what was the kind of general buzz surrounding it like?
00:08:25
Speaker
Um, yeah, I was, you know, I was, we were sitting in our space and, uh, we had just finished the workup cycle. So we had someone in our space, a handful of people that had come on board to evaluate us specifically and how we reacted to things.
00:08:44
Speaker
And so we had just finished up that portion, to my knowledge, the entire COM2X was finished. It was over. And there weren't to be any more exercises. So we were just kind of waiting for our grade and to be debriefed as to how well we did. I knew we did well, obviously. I mean, I was pretty certain of that.
00:09:12
Speaker
But so as we're sitting there waiting, one of my buddies comes in and he worked in
00:09:24
Speaker
Well, he worked in Civic, which is the Carrier Intel Center. And he was an intelligence specialist. And so he was working more closely with what the pilots were doing. And he would do that on a daily basis. And so he comes in and he says, hey, check this out.
00:09:50
Speaker
and so he shows me where it is that the file is and I go into my computer and I open it up and I take a look at it and that was it was the gimbal footage. And the night before I know that we had launched
00:10:09
Speaker
launched some jets and I wasn't sure why. I remember I was climbing into my rack and I heard that they were launching jets and I thought the exercises were over. I'm not sure what's going on. So that was what was going on apparently.
00:10:30
Speaker
And I, of course, I could not watch this footage enough. There were some files there, and among them were the gimbal and the go-fast footage.
00:10:43
Speaker
And so I found myself just watching this footage over and over again because it was just, to me, the most amazing thing I had ever seen in my life. I've seen footage shot from gun cameras. I was very familiar with that.
00:11:03
Speaker
And so when I saw this, it just kind of didn't make any sense the way it was flying. And it didn't seem to have the regular kind of flight surfaces that you would see.
00:11:20
Speaker
And so I think I kind of immediately knew what it was. And it was kind of a, it was a very big shock to me because, you know, I had no interest in this whatsoever. Didn't think it was real. Didn't really care. And then here it is smacking me in the face, you know? And so that was a very eye-opening moment for me.
00:11:49
Speaker
Yeah, I can imagine. There's been a lot of talk recently about the actual length of the original footage captured of the gimbal in particular, with people saying that there are still another four minutes of footage that is not out in the public. Did you see a longer version than what is currently out there? I did not. No, I did not see a longer version. The clip I saw was the exact same clip, exact same length. So it had been cut down to that by the time I saw it.
00:12:19
Speaker
So I wasn't aware of any longer version, but I'm sure that there not only are longer versions, but other videos as well. I'm sure of it. I mean, because I knew that I had heard that the pilots were sharing videos kind of amongst themselves of what was happening. So there's more. I'm sure of that. Yeah.
00:12:48
Speaker
Excellent. Because I think with the way the pilots are describing the objects and they're looking at the situational awareness screen, saying that obviously there's a fleet of them. And yeah, I can just imagine that if that footage was made available, that it would definitely change the conversation even further. So yeah, that would be amazing. I just want to highlight this question here from Yornay. She says, how clear was the footage that you saw? Is it the same version that was made public?
00:13:15
Speaker
Yes, yes, it was. Because I mean, there's also conversation, isn't there, about the possibility of it just being another F-18 shot from a certain angle where you don't see the kind of thermal heat coming off of it. So what do you say to things like that? I tell them that that's an impossibility. I mean, the pilot's essay is going to tell them if that's a friendly F-18 or not.
00:13:46
Speaker
When I hear people say that, it just bothers me to no end because it implies that we don't know what we're doing in the Navy, which of course is ridiculous. We know exactly what's going on around the ship. And so if we have an unknown
00:14:06
Speaker
Something like that escalates very quickly. We're not just like, oh, unknown flying around the ship, turn out the lights if you're the last one in the room and let's all hit the sack. I mean, that's not the way that happens. This is a multi-billion dollar aircraft, or we have billions of dollars worth of aircraft on board, not to mention the ship itself. I mean, that's a lot of money riding on that, and not to mention human life.
00:14:36
Speaker
It just, it's absolutely ridiculous to me when people say, or imply that, that we somehow wouldn't know what that is, right? I mean, that's why the pilots went up there to take a look to begin with, because we didn't know what it was. So that's what they were doing out there. And so it's just ridiculous, these people like Mick West that imply otherwise, you know? It's just the dumbest thing I've ever heard.
00:15:05
Speaker
So you say that the pilots were sent out there specifically to look for these things. Does that mean there would be other data?
UFO Events: Duration & Theories
00:15:11
Speaker
So like radar, which hasn't obviously been made public either. So if we did have all this data, it certainly would paint a better picture for everybody to really get to know what it potentially could be. Certainly what it wasn't. Right, exactly. Yeah. And the pilots going up there, they would have seen that this is a jet.
00:15:33
Speaker
A jet within their scopes that they're looking at, they've seen that a million times by this point. They're not going to be fooled into thinking a jet is something it's not at this point. They're very well trained in that way. Having accumulated as many flight hours as you would have to have in order to
00:15:58
Speaker
be going on deployment number one, and then also taking off and landing on a carrier, which is not easy. You pretty much know what things are when you see them. Yeah, absolutely. And I just wanted to quickly touch upon the Go Fest video as well, because if I'm right in saying that was shot the same day,
00:16:23
Speaker
wasn't it? You know, it may have been. I'm not exactly sure. It may have been different days. I don't know. So this whole event went on for several days. This wasn't just a one day event. And so that's another reason why I have a problem with some of these explanations, like people want to say it's drones or whatever. And I don't
00:16:50
Speaker
I don't know how you would have that kind of battery life or fuel on board that for several days you're doing this. And people say, oh, it could have come from a cargo ship nearby or whatever.
00:17:08
Speaker
Again, it just really bothers me that people think that we have no idea what's going on. It makes it sound like we couldn't find our way out of a paper bag. We can put a missile on a pinpoint out there somewhere on land.
00:17:25
Speaker
If we had to find our way out of a paper bag, we couldn't do it. It's a ridiculous thought. It really is. And so of course, we would have known what ships were around us. We would have had a very good situational awareness of what was going on. So there would have been no way that drones could somehow creep up on us like that. It's not very believable.
00:17:53
Speaker
Absolutely. I've got a question here from George. He asks, did the pilot get a response from the UAP, a friend or foe? If so, what was the response? You know, I don't know. I mean, I had heard recently this wasn't something I knew at the time, but that something that I heard was that it was identified as friendly. I don't know if that's true or not.
00:18:24
Speaker
I don't know. Interesting. Definitely interesting. So you mentioned that you were at the end of the workup. So I assume like not long after this event happened that you then went on deployment, if I'm right. So did the buzz continue once you kind of left the training areas and went overseas?
00:18:58
Speaker
in the know or within intelligence or that had clearances. This wasn't the whole ship knowing about this. But I would say that for the most part, the ship was kind of abuzz with it at the time in terms of the people that I was coming in contact with. At one point I was going into a briefing and I heard a couple of the pilots
00:19:01
Speaker
the the the
00:19:25
Speaker
standing on a doorway to the room where this briefing was happening inside civic and I they were saying they were talking about it right they were like oh have you seen the UFOs you know the the videos and so they were kind of discussing that so people were talking about it
00:19:45
Speaker
I kind of didn't really feel a need to talk about it. And then it just kind of went away when we went on deployment. But that same buddy of mine, I was walking past him one day, actually headed to civic and he was headed the opposite direction. And he
00:20:10
Speaker
And I hate to say this, but he did that creepy little girl voice from Poltergeist. He said, they're back. And I kind of looked at him. I was in a hurry. I had a ton to do on deployment. I didn't have time to just even stop and think about this too much.
00:20:29
Speaker
And as I'm passing him, I'm kind of like, what, you know, are you serious? And he's like, yeah. And I was like, no way. And then I was just kind of on my way. This is in passing. Um, and so they did, they came back when we were on station. Wow. So was that described as a similar object to the gimbal?
00:20:52
Speaker
Uh, you know, I never heard any description of it at that time. Um, like I said, I was busy with my stuff. I was working maybe 15, 20 hours a day. So, uh, I did be in an active war zone, I suppose. Right. Yeah, exactly. I had other things to do. Um,
00:21:12
Speaker
No, that's understandable completely. So let's fast forward a couple of years to, you know, the release of the videos from To The Stars Academy.
Public Release & Personal Impact
00:21:22
Speaker
Do you remember how it's where you were or when you first saw it on the TV or in the papers or anything and how it made you feel? Yeah, I you know, I was it was another kind of I feel like this the release of it to the New York Times and seeing it
00:21:41
Speaker
kind of on my phone was a bigger shock to me than the event itself, if that makes any sense because-
00:21:50
Speaker
Because I wasn't busy at the time, right? At the time I had transferred to Washington, DC. I was working at the Office of Naval Intelligence. And my brother texts me one day and says, hey, there's this article in New York Times about UFOs and the government's UFO program. And he said, there's footage.
00:22:11
Speaker
And I said, oh, you know, I'll check it out. I really to me, this was not a conversation I wanted to have with him because my job was not something that I discussed at all. I wasn't at liberty to discuss it. So I couldn't really talk about things that I had seen behind closed doors. But so I watched the footage and I just kind of
00:22:39
Speaker
you know, it was a big shock to see this footage that I first saw on a skiff. Now I'm watching it on my phone. That was something that never happens. So I, it was, you know, to see it, it's like, this is classified. Why is this out in the public? You know, and I was just very uneasy about that. Just kind of very immediately uneasy about that because you,
00:23:07
Speaker
When you deal with classified material and classified information, it's just drilled into you that there's a place and a time for that. And watching it on your cell phone is not something that should be happening. So I was just very shocked by all of that. And that kind of made me want to dig into the topic
00:23:34
Speaker
a little bit more because it mentioned specific people and organizations. And I knew being an intelligence analyst, I thought, well, I'm going to drill down on those sources and see what I can find for myself.
00:23:50
Speaker
So where does that lead you? Where did you start? If you don't mind me asking. Yeah, so I read some valet and I read, you know, some of Tom DeLonge's books because he was, you know, with TTSA and mentioned in the article. Yeah.
00:24:10
Speaker
And I couldn't, you know, I of course, I knew that these people were credible people. You know, Chris Mellon, Assistant Secretary of Defense for Intelligence. I mean, these people aren't just just anybody coming out and saying this, you know, so I knew that there was some weight behind this.
00:24:29
Speaker
Uh, so I just started reading books, you know, uh, first Tom DeLong stuff, then Tom DeLong had written the forward or a valet had written the forward to one of Tom DeLong's books. So I, that's what got me into valet. One thing kind of led to another and, um, man, it was a crazy ride. Absolutely. And I suppose the one thing is, is if all of what we've discussed so far wasn't, you know,
00:24:58
Speaker
exciting enough and let's move on to what happened to you after all that and boy a lot happened so I mean I'll leave it up to you where to start but what was the first thing afterwards or that came to light about you actually experiencing something for yourself?
00:25:19
Speaker
Um, yeah. So I, you know, I, I became an experiencer after that. I guess that's the word you would use. Uh, and I, you know, I, I went through this, this experience where I, the first thing that happened, um, was, you know, when I started digging into this, I started to feel very uneasy about things because I, I didn't want to believe, you know, that
00:25:48
Speaker
beings were in people's room at night, that any of this was happening. And so that made me very uneasy. But I was still looking into it nonetheless, because I thought, well, you know, I didn't think UFOs were real. So why would I think that any of this other experiencer stuff isn't real?
00:26:09
Speaker
Right? And so, you know, I just I the first book that I came across that really had to do with this topic, which just was was also another life altering experience was that I had this day of coincidences. People sometimes call them synchronicities, but they were
00:26:36
Speaker
They were coincidences that were so far out there that they were terrifying when you put them all together. And it led me to reading this book called The Cavallion by the Three Initiates.
00:26:59
Speaker
And that was the first book I read because I knew that that had something to do with this after this day of impossible coincidences that just scared the bejesus out of me, right? Because it was so purposeful, too. It was coincidences in such a way that something wanted me to know that these coincidences were constructed this way, right?
Philosophical Exploration & The Caballion
00:27:25
Speaker
And that is terrifying to think of.
00:27:29
Speaker
And so, you know, I read this book, The Caballion by the Three Initiates, and it was written in, I think, 1909 or eight or something by a guy named William Walker Atkinson. And it just describes these seven universal principles that govern the universe. And then, of course, everything that followed that, you know, beings in my room at night, whatever,
00:27:58
Speaker
other experiences I had, they all kind of fit in with that book. And that book is certainly not something I would have read otherwise. You know, he was a rather famous occult writer. Wow.
00:28:19
Speaker
I mean, you mentioned that beings in your room, can you are you able to kind of expand on that a bit and describe kind of what happened and you know what they look like and whether any kind of messages were relayed or or things like that? Yeah, so I mean, I saw several different types throughout these experiences. The first one was. And I I was not a religious person at the time, I never
00:28:46
Speaker
have believed in that. I've never been a churchgoer. I wasn't raised in a household where anybody believed any of that. So I was very much science based and grounded. My parents were both college graduates with STEM backgrounds. So
00:29:07
Speaker
to think of some white bearded man in the sky was just total fantasy to me and not even in the realm of anything that I believed. But so the first experience I had was I was in my room after having read The Caballion, I was asleep one night and I felt something grab my arm and wake me up.
00:29:36
Speaker
So I open my eyes and I'm in my room and I'm laying on my back. I don't ever lay on my back when I sleep because I eventually will just snore myself awake if I do that. So I wake up on my back and I'm looking at my window and I thought,
00:29:57
Speaker
the windows going blurry, you know, like my vision was clear, and then it starts going blurry. So I went to go raise my hand to my face to wipe the sleep out of my eyes, and I couldn't move. Wow. So I thought, wait a minute, I woke up to something grabbed my arm. And so I kind of fight to turn my head to the right, and I see this shadowy figure standing over me.
00:30:25
Speaker
just like a torso, two arms, and a head bent over looking at me. And as I'm looking at this, all of a sudden, my room starts to light up from behind this entity and this golden light. And then the light becomes blinding it so bright. And then the light concentrates into these rays of golden light coming out of her head.
00:30:54
Speaker
And I thought to myself, what is going on? This is bizarre. So I fell back asleep. And then I started having this sexual dream, which was also an odd dream because it was just an ex of mine from 20 years ago and myself.
00:31:18
Speaker
and there was nothing else around. It was just total pitch black darkness, right? And so then I wake up again, I'm back in my room and I can see that there's this woman on top of me who has blue skin and my hands are on her thighs and I can feel her skin is not like normal human skin. It's thicker and tighter than normal human skin.
00:31:49
Speaker
You know, and I realized that in talking about this, people are like, wow, this guy has lost his mind, right? This is crazy talk. But keep in mind, while this is happening, I'm working at the Office of Naval Intelligence, right?
00:32:12
Speaker
I'm not fooled. I'm not, you know, deluding myself. This is happening, right? And, you know, I started to pick apart that experience in terms of the book, The Cavallion, that I read about.
00:32:34
Speaker
You know, one of the principles is that the universe is mental. Um, that you can think of the universe as a mental creation of a singular consciousness of which we are all apart. Right. And, um, I, I kind of, I feel like that whole experience was just like, uh, a pre prelude of things to come. Right. It was the light rays of light coming from the head kind of.
00:33:03
Speaker
as an allegory for the mental universe. To think of this as a mental thing rather than anything else, right? These experiences that follow, they're all mental. And you need to think of them and kind of conceptualize them in that way as allegory for the mental universe.
00:33:31
Speaker
That's kind of the scope through which I view all of this now. I am not your typical experiencer. I don't have the typical views of this that people normally do. I tend to look at...
00:33:53
Speaker
If I'm looking for sources for all of this, I tend to look at things that have come down through centuries that are time tested. I love the works of Plato. I love the works of other philosophers that spoke on these topics and the nature of reality because they knew what they were talking about. There's a reason their works have survived for thousands of years.
00:34:20
Speaker
No, I appreciate you going into detail there. So would you say from these experiences there was an overall message of positivity or would it lean more towards negativity? I mean, what was the overall kind of feeling you got? I'm glad the whole thing happened to me for sure. You know, believe it or not, so I wrote a book about all of this. It's called Initiated because I realized at the end of this that this was an initiatory process, right, that
00:34:49
Speaker
conditions one's mind to start thinking of the universe in a certain way so that at the end of the experiences, hopefully if you've played your cards right, you come into this thing that has been described as like nirvana or enlightenment at the end, which I certainly did. And in thinking about it allegorically,
00:35:15
Speaker
I came to understand something very important and that is that once you awaken and you can see this and you're thinking in terms of allegory and you're starting to look at the world differently, you can see that reality is in fact just layered allegory. Everything is an allegory and that that's what reality is. It's an allegory for a
00:35:44
Speaker
reality that underlies it and that's what our physical reality is and and it just it blows my mind still to this day uh when i think about it and kind of perceive it out there um i'm not sure if that goes above people's heads but i mean it doesn't necessarily go above my head it's like you said you know
00:36:08
Speaker
you're not the stereotypical experiencer, but then I was thinking straight away, well, is there a stereotypical experience? I mean, I've spoken to a few and then my good friend, Jake Christopher King runs the experiencer group. And, you know, the amount of differences between a lot of what he's come across, I'm sure are just vast. So, you know, I'm sure there's all sorts happening out there.
Roberts' Book & Universal Truths
00:36:31
Speaker
But was this something that still continues to this day for you?
00:36:35
Speaker
Yeah, it does. You know, there was the author of the Caballion was good friends with this woman of the time back in the early 1900s who was named Mabel Collins, who wrote several books about this. And one of those books was
00:37:00
Speaker
when the sun moves northward the way of initiation. And I read several books about initiation. And one of the things she describes is that there is this thing called waking clairvoyance. And I started to experience this voice that I would hear when I was in the state between awake and asleep. And I still to this day hear it. And it will give me
00:37:30
Speaker
the name of an author to read maybe or an artist to look at or something else. And then I'll see how it's connected to all of this, right? And I'll write about it. I'm actually working on another book called
00:37:48
Speaker
Master of Animals is the working title. And I named it after this ancient motif, right? And it's just a motif from all over the world. It was everywhere that depicts a person standing between two animals kind of holding them at bay.
00:38:08
Speaker
And it represents kind of this idea of taking the Buddhist middle road, right? Where you're keeping these beasts at bay in the mind on either side of you. To walk that middle road, that fine line where you are none of those beasts, right? And so that's what I'm calling this new book.
00:38:33
Speaker
I like it. I like the idea of it. I mean, one thing that comes across to me is that throughout all of this, you know, as I'm sure it was terrifying, but you seem quite grounded. So it's almost like you've found a way to deal with it or figure it out. But I mean, during these times, did you have anyone to talk to about it or was it kind of something you kept to yourself?
00:38:51
Speaker
I didn't. I kept it to myself. I talked to my brother about it a little bit, and I was lucky enough that he believed me. You know what I mean? Because he knows me, right? So he knows that I'm a very grounded and serious person, and I had a very serious job, which I also took very seriously.
00:39:18
Speaker
So he knew that if I was saying this, there's something is happening here. So he didn't disbelieve anything that I was telling him. And in fact, to this day, I talk to him about it all the time. And then post my experiences and me figuring it out, I would kind of
00:39:43
Speaker
I became like a philosopher, in a sense, like at work. We would go, like the people I work with, my immediate sphere at work, we would go down and eat lunch together and we would have woke Wednesdays, they called it, where people would ask me about life and I would kind of answer their questions and guide them.
00:40:07
Speaker
Wow, that sounds cool. So you mentioned all this sort of philosophical side of things, do you link now like all different aspects of say the phenomenon, whether it be the occult aspect, the paranormal, the extraterrestrial, do you think it's all linked in some way?
00:40:26
Speaker
Oh yeah, absolutely. I think that all the world's religions relate to this in terms of the philosophy of it. That, to me, at this point is just fairly obvious. And if you know what you're looking at,
00:40:41
Speaker
then you can see that all the world's religions, in fact, are the same. They're all describing the same thing. But a lot of people don't do that because they like to look at these stories and they interpret them in their own way. But once you've seen what I've seen, it becomes clear. It's like, oh, that's what all this is. And I had no idea before.
00:41:11
Speaker
And in terms of the universe being allegory, your last guest, Diana Pasulka, was on. And one of the things that I like to talk about is that whether or not you're an introvert or an extrovert will depend on how you relate to this allegory, right? That is your relationship to the allegory. A lot of people think introversion and extroversion are just these
00:41:42
Speaker
these qualities that you can possess. But they're much more than that. These are two different planes of mental existence that don't see each other at all. And that's kind of the reason for a lot of the strife that we see in politics today. But so Diana Pasulka described something that I thought was very interesting about Ryan Blitzo and his family.
00:42:07
Speaker
And how he was kind of, at the end of his experiences, he had built this garden to feed the world, he said. And that was something that he wanted to do. And so, when you think about eating and drinking, you're consuming, right? You're consuming information, even.
00:42:33
Speaker
And so that too becomes something allegorical. And that's what drinking the body and the blood of Christ is all about. It's an allegory for the knowledge of Christ. And so you have this guy who's decided he's going to build this garden to feed the world.
00:42:56
Speaker
He's acting on this in an extroverted way, right? He's making this garden rather than feeding the world with knowledge, right? So those are like the two different levels, introvert and extrovert. And when you see this in the world, it starts to become fairly obvious that that's the way things are and that's what reality is.
00:43:27
Speaker
It's very scary, actually. Because you can see people relating to one another in an extroverted way. And you can see countries relating to each other in an extroverted way. And it just becomes very, very scary because you know where that can end up, right? Yeah.
00:43:49
Speaker
And a lot of experiencers, they're shown like these apocalyptic scenes, right, of destruction and death and things like that. But that's an allegory for this experience, right?
00:44:04
Speaker
Your inner life is in turmoil at this point right because you're going through this initiation and you You're your whole life has been upended and it's catastrophic and you're very emotional. You're very depressed And and so that's that's kind of they're showing you the extroverted allegory of that to represent what's happening to you inside right and and that
00:44:34
Speaker
And people don't always get the symbolism that Jim Semivan talks about how they speak to us in symbols, right? And so you have to interpret those symbols and interpret the experiences as allegory to kind of unwrap what's happening to you. Makes sense,
Interpreting Experiences & Symbolism
00:44:54
Speaker
yeah. Because I never really stopped to think about it that much. But it does make sense that it's
00:45:03
Speaker
doesn't necessarily depict what it means. You know, you have to translate it to... Yeah, I appreciate that. And it's given me food for thought, let's say. Yeah, and that's why people talk about high strangeness, because they don't realize this about the phenomenon. So they want to take these experiences at face value. And when you do that, it's nonsense, you know. And that's why you call it high strangeness, because it doesn't make any sense any other way.
00:45:32
Speaker
Yeah, valid point. Absolutely. I just got a question here from Jay Allen. Could you ask if we can parallel this with Hitchhiker reported by the DIA folks? If so, do you have any theories regarding the purpose or intent? Maybe comment on the contagion theory. Yeah, I mean, absolutely. I think I think it is contagious because
00:45:56
Speaker
As someone like me, I start to experience things and the people around me knew that I was incredibly level-headed and very just grounded. I've been told by many people in the past that, hey, you're the most level-headed person I know.
00:46:13
Speaker
You know, because there's very little that would ever make me upset. I was just very always calm, cool, collected. And yet here I am talking about this stuff that's in the realm of Tim foil hats. So there must be something to it, you know.
00:46:29
Speaker
And so then it gets other people thinking, well, okay, this is real. And so the phenomenon will recognize, hey, that person, we can maybe get them to realize this as well. Let's try to initiate them too. And so that's how this kind of spreads.
00:46:54
Speaker
I forgot who said it. It was a quote I read recently that once you become aware of the phenomenon, it becomes aware of you. And that's kind of how this hitchhiker effect happens. Because if you're working on this behind closed doors, obviously you know it's real. And then you're going to see
00:47:14
Speaker
extra types of footage, photographs, whatever, and it'll be crystal clear. I've seen some of that, and I don't know why they don't come out with it.
00:47:31
Speaker
that too will get you thinking. And then the phenomenon suddenly has an inroad with you, because you now understand that this is real, you're not waking up in the middle of the night and this is just a bad dream. Some people can't tell the difference, I can.
00:47:52
Speaker
Yeah, so that's how I would describe the Hitchhiker effect anyway. It's just that the phenomenon realizes it has an inroad there with you. So it will latch on to that and kind of follow you.
00:48:09
Speaker
But the question is, the question is, right? And this is the difference between a successful initiation and a failure is that where are you going to go with it? You know, how brave are you? Are you going to go? Are you going to dive headlong into this or are you going to resist it and run away? And most people
00:48:33
Speaker
I think most people find that they're kind of really not brave enough to face it. It's not an easy thing. It is not an easy thing. I have people who come across my book in very paranormal ways, similar to the way I came across the Caballon. And sometimes they're suicidal when they're talking to me, because they're like, am I going crazy? What's happening to me?
00:49:01
Speaker
And that's one of the reasons why I am all for disclosure. This should have never been a secret, ever. It's a part of the natural universe. It's like saying that water is classified or air is classified. It simply is. So let's talk about it. Yeah, absolutely.
00:49:24
Speaker
So do you think disclosure will come sooner rather than later? And if so, where will it come from? Do you think that the government are able to disclose? Do you think they're not because they don't understand it? How do you see things currently? I think that there are very few. There's almost no one who understands this. I would say that
00:49:50
Speaker
And that's very scary to me because, you know, there's all kinds of theories out there that are just bunk. And I hate to think that people in the government are latching on to some of those bunk theories, but I think unfortunately some of them probably are. And that's unfortunate. And, you know, I,
00:50:15
Speaker
So they don't have any idea what's going on. There may be individuals within the apparatus that have an idea just like I do. But of course, people being what they are, they'll say, oh, well, that's just your opinion, right? You don't actually know what you're talking about.
00:50:37
Speaker
But that's not the truth of it. And one of the great things about all of this that I think has come out is just that
00:50:50
Speaker
I was watching an interview with Dr. Gary Nolan the other day. It's kind of a lesser known interview. The podcast host wasn't very well known. But one of the things he said is that there's some really good news in this, in that we have it in our heads that with all of our problems and that we can't possibly solve all of this, that we're going to end up destroying ourselves. But there's good news in that someone
00:51:19
Speaker
was able to move past that, right? Now we have kind of some evidence that there's more, right? We can get past that. And so the question now becomes how do we move from point A where we are now to point B where we kind of suspect they are because they have all this high tech. It didn't destroy them. They can use it responsibly.
00:51:45
Speaker
So how do we get there?
Philosophy, Theology, & Technology
00:51:48
Speaker
And that's the big question, right? And I think that things like philosophy and theology kind of answer those questions. I don't think a mathematician or a physicist is going to be able to answer that for you, but philosophy certainly can.
00:52:09
Speaker
Interesting. Absolutely. And you mentioned Gary Nolan there, and he's been involved with a lot of study of experiences over time. Have you ever been approached by anybody to be looked at, let's say, by any of these people? I was aware of the study that was happening while I was working at ONI, but I
00:52:38
Speaker
I was kind of too late to participate in it. So to my knowledge, my information is not involved in that study. I could be wrong. I don't know, but I don't think so. I mean, I never had any scans. There was certainly some talk of that, but I never ended up getting any brain scans.
00:53:04
Speaker
Interesting. So you mentioned that you're obviously writing the new book. Is there anything else that you've got going on at the moment or always kind of that kind of your main focus?
00:53:12
Speaker
No, I yeah, that's that's kind of my main focus. I I try to keep kind of a low profile I don't I don't I don't there's so many people that you know, they they want followers I just don't you follow me or don't I don't really care. This the choice is yours You know, I mean if you follow me I'm gonna talk about some really interesting things but
00:53:39
Speaker
If you don't, I'm not gonna be heartbroken about it. And I certainly don't, I don't get wrapped up in that drama online too much.
00:53:50
Speaker
It's just it's nonsense that I that I don't feel a need to participate in, you know. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Well, I look forward to the book coming out. I've got you the book on my pile still to read. I could just thank you enough because this has been a fascinating conversation and I've been following you for some time and I really do appreciate you and your outlook. So yeah, once again, thank you so much. Thank you. Thank you for having me, Vinny.
00:54:16
Speaker
My pleasure. Everyone in the live chat, thank you so much. I'm sorry I didn't get to all of your questions. Yeah, thank you for being good. As always, I'm going to be back next week. Go and follow me on social medias to find out who. I'm sorry, I've been redoing my schedules the last few days and it's just completely confused me. So, yeah. Nick Brown, thank you so much for the donation.
00:54:42
Speaker
This is a unique the hitchhiker element is real I'm on the Isle of More Scotland and I sense a presence above me when I'm walking my dog I know it's above me and with me. It's personal. I guess that's a really good point I suppose it is it's personal and it's up to the individual how they perceive things so Yeah, really cool. Once again guys. Thank you so much. Thank you Matthew, and I'll see you next time. Take care