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Ep. 38 - When You're Just Not Feeling the Love w/ Stephanie Drury of Stuff Christian Culture Likes
107 Plays3 years ago
Our guest this week is Stephanie Drury, curator of Stuff Christian Culture Likes! Stephanie grew up with parents who were in ministry and bounced from church to church, and was engrossed in Christian culture most of her life. However, in her late teens, she started drifting away from the type of evangelicalism she had always known. Stephanie has a fascinating story, and a lot of salient points about the church's handling of mental health issues, their actions towards marginalized groups of people, and the general lack of compassion for real people who are struggling. Her social media pages are fantastic, and you can follow her on Twitter @stuffcclikes, Instagram @stuffchristianculturelikes, and Facebook by searching "Stuff Christian Culture Likes!"
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Transcript
Fake Driscoll Twitter Account
00:00:00
Speaker
So that's when I started the fake Driscoll Twitter and just kind of would say stuff in Mark's voice to like, just as a parody and within like 12 hours of starting that account, I got an email from Mars Hill where it had all this legalese and they were saying that it was like, you're allowed to have a Twitter account, but you need to make abundantly clear that this is a parody and it's not really Mark. I go, I don't know how much clearer it could be than being called fake Driscoll. And so I made that my bio, like Mars Hill said to tell you, this is a parody account.
Recording on Vacation
00:00:47
Speaker
Hey, everybody. Welcome to another episode of Growing Up Christian. I'm Sam. And I'm Casey. And I'm coming to you from a space above a garage. I am on vacation and I'm squeezing this in and my computer is being a little weird. So I don't know if I'm going to have any like audio issues on this because I can't get to my audio settings. So if it ends up coming through weird on the recording, I guess I'll just deal with it. And Casey gets to have fun trying to fix it.
00:01:16
Speaker
I didn't realize the Hampton Inn had like a garage attic apartment. Cool. No, I'm actually, we're staying with family and it's my wife's cousins letting us use his space. He's got this huge room up here. It's really cool. That's a super dope spot to do my things. You can see probably all of his cool, I'm good at stuff equipment behind me. Yeah. Like lots of music equipment and stuff. There's no, there's no turd pipe.
00:01:43
Speaker
It's like great over your head this time. Nope. We're not coming from my garage right next to where all my plumbing connects to.
Road Trip Adventures
00:01:50
Speaker
So that's fun. Dude, so coming through. All right, so I'm in I'm in North Carolina. Obviously, that's far from Massachusetts. We drove.
00:02:02
Speaker
with our kids in a van. And they were surprisingly great. I was a little nervous about how that was going to all play out. Kids were awesome, barely complained. I mean, they asked how much longer, about every hour or less. But other than that, it was fine. And we had pretty smooth sailing going through Connecticut, New York, Maryland, West Virginia. And then we got to Virginia.
00:02:32
Speaker
was just traffic. We sat in at least two hours of traffic just in the state of Virginia, and it was all related to car accidents. Now, we lived in Virginia, Casey, and I had forgotten that we talked about this, but now I very much remember talking about how bad Virginia
00:02:53
Speaker
Yeah, I feel like people say that everywhere. That's true. They do. But I'm going to go ahead and believe that it's true after my experience, my anecdotal experience, because we're not in Virginia for that long in six car accidents, six car accidents is why we were stuck in traffic. Now, I hope nobody died raining or anything. Nope. No, it was fine. Weather was fine. And I do like how in the south, like rain is a is a reason why you might get into a wreck. Yeah.
00:03:22
Speaker
I know. It rained. It rained. How are we ever going to get where we need to go? It's raining, guys. We need to stay home.
Virginia Traffic Woes
00:03:32
Speaker
And on one of them, dude, it was like you see the line turn red. You got Google Maps up. Shout out to Google.
00:03:38
Speaker
response to the podcast. And you see the like that long red line in this, like you scroll up and it shows you where the car accident was. And while we're just watching that, it's just like more accidents popping up because everyone just getting gotten fucking fender benders or something like because they're on their phone and then they rear end the person stopping. So bad. We were in so much traffic.
00:04:02
Speaker
And that's definitely how I'm going to die. Yeah. And then we saw like a trailer flipped over on the side of the road that detached from somebody's truck. It's like, I don't know. Of course, like I said, I hope nobody died, but also if they after that level of inconvenience for me, they kind of deserve it. Yeah. I mean, why not, right? I mean.
00:04:20
Speaker
Dude, the, uh, I almost, I almost witnessed a car wreck like that this week. I was coming back from, I don't know, Kansas city or something like that. And, uh, there's this person in front of me and they were driving pretty fast. You know, it's speed limit 75. So everybody's doing like 80.
00:04:42
Speaker
83 somewhere in there right and this person is in front of me going pretty fast they had kind of weaved through traffic a little bit and Ahead of them is like an old Ford Ranger and it's towing a trailer in the left lane Doing like 60. I mean this thing's like it's putting along. It's going very slow I don't know why they're in the left lane. They don't have their flashes on or anything like that and I'm following this guy and I'm watching him and he's just like gaining on these people
00:05:12
Speaker
Like I mean closing the distance quick and I'm watching him I'm like, is he just trying to like push them out of the way or what is he doing? And then yeah, you have that realization where you're like he doesn't see that car and all of a sudden like Brakes locked up and the thing starts fishtailing and stuff like that And I mean it was ever you could see it for you know He had a good like two minutes of visibility on this thing before he got to it
00:05:41
Speaker
He was for sure like buried in his phone or something like that. That's ridiculous. Now look, I'm not passing judgment on people who are buried in their phone because I probably was at the time too. You had to look up to see that. Yeah, it's a skill like you got to you got to work to get better. Yeah, man. Yeah, let's that's a that's a good position to take on using phones on.
00:06:04
Speaker
I think you should never use your phone while you're driving until you're over the age of 30. Yeah, and then it's okay. I don't know if the statistics would show that but you know, you could look into it. Well, I guess just the liberal media. Yeah, the looking at it. The mainstream media has a lot to say about looking at your phone while driving.
Socioeconomic Contrasts in Rural Areas
00:06:27
Speaker
Uh, dude, okay. A couple of things to note for the bet. I found notable on my drive here. So with some of the car accidents, we got jumped off the highway, kind of like rerouted us to like avoid them. And I saw kind of for the first time you would call this out before when you're like talking about like these areas that have, uh, maybe the local community is struggling financially, but the church in the area is certainly not.
00:06:55
Speaker
And I saw that. I mean, one of the roads we went down, I was like, okay. It was just like, look, and of course, no disrespect towards anyone who lives in these types of situations. There was like, but it was just like trailer parks and like houses with their porches falling off. And like, for like a mile, it was just a lot of dilapidated housing structures. And then I saw like,
00:07:21
Speaker
a break in the houses and then set back this nice brick church really like kept up well and like, Jesus Christ, this is what Casey's always talking about.
00:07:35
Speaker
And I couldn't believe it like it really was I I don't even know what like though I don't even know the word for it I just saw it and thought oh, yeah, this is really fucked up like this church isn't can't be for those people I don't know who's going to this church. Maybe no one's really going to anymore, but
00:07:53
Speaker
I was just like, this feels a little dark. You can clearly tell that this community is struggling financially. It's rural, right? There probably isn't great jobs in the area as far as like, oh, let me go to this business and get a good salary here. There's no office job. I mean, we're in the middle of nowhere. I think it was Pennsylvania maybe. We might have been in Virginia. But
00:08:18
Speaker
or West Virginia. We're not in West Virginia long on the trip. But either way, I was like this, it feels bad when there's not a lot of good opportunity. But for some reason, like the church is maybe the best, you know, business decision, like, that just felt really, yeah, those little towns, man, there, there are, they're dying out there in a lot of those rural parts of the country and stuff, because there's just no economy out there.
00:08:42
Speaker
Yeah, like the mid sized ones, you know, like there's a few here in Kansas that seem like they're just building and building and building and building like, uh, Salina Dodge city garden city. They're like not big cities or anything by any means, but you know, 30, 40, 50,000 people, like those ones are doing great, but the surrounding communities of like these, you know, the old school, like little bitty town with this one intersection downtown area that has had
00:09:11
Speaker
never had more than like one restaurant one little store and stuff like there's just nothing for people. In those areas so they're they're drying up. Yeah yeah it's really wild i mean i don't often go through areas like that just you know i even out where i live is not role we like to pretend it is but if you live in massachusetts you're really not. Too far from something like this usually like something around but i'm like.
00:09:41
Speaker
You know, Pennsylvania is obviously really big, or maybe we're in Virginia, but there's not a lot of, there's a lot of similarities. And when you're just like, even on the highways, just all, like you just, you just see, it's all scenery. But if you get off, it's just like little podunk towns. Yeah, I forget really, you do. And those obviously the people who get frustrated by, I'm sure for the most part, they're the people who get liberal elites and bullshit like that. But of course I would, you know, push back and talk about maybe the misunderstandings of what
00:10:11
Speaker
their political parties doing for them in those communities as well, not saying that there's an easy answer to it. But point being, those people, regardless of your political affiliation, are really, despite the words that people use to get them on board in the rhetoric that they might find compelling, they're definitely left in the dust by pretty much everybody.
00:10:35
Speaker
And I don't even know what the right answer to that is too, right? You're not gonna just build a skyscraper there and rent that space out to a bunch of corporations. There's no good solution to that. The factory closed. I mean, it's possible it went overseas, but maybe it's just an industry that's dying. I don't know. It really does suck. And I actually felt a little bit a level of disappointment outside of the church thing too, just being like,
00:11:05
Speaker
a lot. If you grow up in that community, your chances of getting out of it are obviously harder. It's just like any type of issue that you would... It almost feels like in some level the same issues that you experience or that you hear from people in inner cities when it comes to economic disenfranchisement and less opportunity, it really affects these
00:11:30
Speaker
communities similarly. I think yeah, I think there's some similarities there for sure. Like, you know, get a job, help yourself out. It's like where there are no jobs, like there are no jobs here. Unless you want to serve breakfast at the local diner. It's like, yeah, most of these towns don't even have one of those, you know, most of them don't even have a grocery store. You know, you have to drive 30 40 miles, 50 miles sometimes to get to a town that has
00:11:59
Speaker
something, you know, and now it's a Walmart and the type of thing. I don't know. It's weird right now, man. There's like this such a misalignment of like, what's available and and what's needed. And
00:12:13
Speaker
Even like my company has a manufacturing facility in the little town that's closest to me and they have a decent sized staff and they cannot keep staffing. Really? Yeah, it's a small town. You know there's people there that need work but for some reason, you just cannot keep people on staff.
00:12:36
Speaker
You know, they'll put up ads and stuff and they'll get three applications over the course of months. And it's, it's tough right now. Everybody, every business that I deal with, you know, which I deal with a lot of car dealerships and repair shops and stuff, they're all short-handed.
00:12:51
Speaker
And I don't know where the help's gonna come from because there's also like a total like lack of people in trade schools and stuff like that. Like we need those people. And if we continue to need those people and not get those people, the next wave of like technological advancement is gonna render them obsolete. Because there's a lot of these jobs that I think machinery can eventually replace.
00:13:18
Speaker
Yeah, I know. It's true. I mean, you can spend millions on automation upfront. And if you have the capital and the ability and the credit to do so, I mean, it'll save you money over time. And then the jobs will be available or people who can install fakes from machines. That's really a weird shift in our society right now because it's happening so fast, right? You look at people in their 40s and 50s. It's like, who's going to adapt to that? Nobody.
00:13:46
Speaker
The technological shifts happen so fast that the adjustment has to happen over a generation, like with the next generation coming up and learning that. Not that there aren't any, but there's few people who are going to make those shifts in their career and learn those things as time goes on.
00:14:04
Speaker
Even the mentality of the people who are raising the next generation. We all got that. You need to go to college because we couldn't go to college. It'll get you a good job. The amount of millennials who got fucked by college is most of them. It wasn't a good decision for a lot of people.
00:14:22
Speaker
It wasn't like they were trying, no one was trying to give us bad advice or put us in debt for no reason. Anyone who gave us that advice was trying to look at the opportunities that they felt like they missed and hope that we were able to have
00:14:38
Speaker
More opportunity, you know if we didn't everyone who graduated with like English degrees or hey Bible degrees like what do you get? I mean that was my fault Yeah, I'm like now I don't know so it's tough like you look at the the inform like I was specifically told not to get into trades, right? Like you don't want to do that. You want to go to college and get a desk job or something. Yeah, so in lighter news It's my dog's birthday today
00:15:03
Speaker
Hey, happy birthday. How old? He's he's nine. So this is my German Shepherd Django. Yeah, so probably going to take him outside, let him find a nice turd to eat. Just really enjoy himself. Live his best life. I have some lighter news to more stuff from my
00:15:26
Speaker
from that I saw on my trip here. This is the last thing I got. And I laughed very hard at this. So one of the accidents that we pulled off the road and hit an alternate route for was in West Virginia. We ended up passing the West Virginia-Virginia line on this little back route. And another one of these very rural type towns. And as soon as we get off the highway, start driving maybe like two minutes,
00:15:56
Speaker
And I see like this rundown looking building, but it's got the book, like the sign that says gentleman's club on it. And I don't know what I mean, it just didn't look nice. And it looks pretty bleak. Yeah, it is like, come check out our day shift. And then underneath it said closed because of Covid. And then. But what was interesting is there wasn't just one
00:16:22
Speaker
Another mile, less than a mile down the road. Less than a mile down the road. Another gentleman's club. Closed. Another mile down the road. Another gentleman's club. I passed four. Four gentleman's clubs in this town. On this road. And one of them, this is the best part, was literally right next door to a middle school. Nice. Was this like close to a state line?
00:16:45
Speaker
Yeah, it was the West Virginia, Virginia state line. I think we were still in West Virginia. So that's funny because I've noticed that like I traveled a lot for a few years, you know, and went to some crazy out of the way places. Yeah. Yeah. And
00:17:02
Speaker
Like there's a town like that in Wisconsin. So if you go to like Northeast Wisconsin, there's a town right on the border with Michigan that's split in half. I don't remember what it's called on the Wisconsin side. On the Michigan side, it's called Iron Mountain, I think. But anyways, it's a very small community, a very out of the way place. And it's like biggest boom season is like snowmobile season. It's on the trail.
00:17:31
Speaker
People go, if you're not familiar with that tire to the country, one of the things people like to do is they'll get snowmobiles and they'll just go on these long distance treks. So they might be out for days driving across the entire upper peninsula of Michigan or the northern part of Wisconsin or something like that.
00:17:50
Speaker
And it's funny because the little downtown area in the Wisconsin side of town is the same thing. It's got four different strip clubs all in a row. And you're like, how do they staff these? How do they keep these places open? There cannot be that many people here for that. But it is funny. That's one of those loophole situations.
00:18:17
Speaker
Oh yeah. You can't on this side of the line, but over there you can. Dude, I think being next to the middle, like being next to, I don't know if you watch the show Parks and Rec, but a little bit. It's been a while. That was the first thought that came to my mind when I saw the strip club next to a middle school was like, that would be an episode of Parks and Rec where somebody wants to open. There's all this back and forth on whether or not that's a goofy ass town meetings. They would always have like their town hall meetings and
00:18:44
Speaker
the crazy people from town would give their position and say all sorts of weird stuff. And that felt like an episode of Parks and Rectomy because there's no chance that that has not come up many times at their town meeting, whether or not you should have a strip club. You walk out the front door of the middle school and you can see the strip club right there. So it's like you can see all the people in the parking lot just chilling and smoking their cigarettes and then from the middle school front door.
00:19:12
Speaker
Like, at least put it next to the high school. Maybe build up like a pipeline. Yeah, pipeline. That gentleman's club pipeline. Yeah. What cracks me up is like porn stores.
Introducing Stephanie Drury
00:19:27
Speaker
Oh, yeah. There's so many big signs for those two on the way down. Oh, yeah. That's like a total like truck route sort of thing, you know. Yeah. But they're never nice. And I'm not talking about like, you know, you got like the
00:19:42
Speaker
Surillas, couples, whatever story, you know, like those are fine. I'm sure that they're kind of all over. They look clean. They're usually in a decent like, like in shopping part of town. Okay, then you get like, like there's one in downtown Wichita, like south of the of the main drag, they're called the circle cinema.
00:20:05
Speaker
Dude, it is a nightmare. It's this round building and it looks like no one has done any maintenance on this thing since 1977 when it was built. It just looks ragged and then you'll be driving by and you'll see some
00:20:24
Speaker
You know kind of doughy old man sort of like shuffling out of there with this brown paper bag kind of looking over his shoulder and stuff. Yeah, like what are you doing man? You know the internet exists. You don't have to buy analog porn.
00:20:42
Speaker
That's what doesn't make any sense about how these things things in this. This is one that we always would notice on the way because it's like also I think middle of nowhere, Pennsylvania. Pink. I don't remember. You can see it from the highway and there's like nothing around it. But I want to say it was like there's I want to say it might be called the Lions Den. I don't know. There's this huge billboard. Yeah. That I remember seeing all the time because and they've updated it. I was like, you know, I haven't done that trip since we moved back from
00:21:11
Speaker
So it's been about, yeah, it's been like 10 years since I've made this trip. And I, you know, you forget a lot about the trip. But then driving down, I just saw the billboard and I'm like, Oh, no shit line lines, then still in business. And I think they have a new billboard like, I think that's a chain. Okay, there's there's lines, then all over the place. Like if you hit if you hit the highways across the country, you'll see lines then signs are like, I know they advertise the amount of whatever it is that
00:21:39
Speaker
just like porn or 10,000 videos. Yeah, you're like, cheaper. I guess. But then you like, you know, we left the house at 345. And so like when you're passing, when you're passing the, the rest stops and shit at like in the middle of the night and all the truckers are just parked there. I mean, you know, that's what they're all doing in the back of their little cabs there. It's just watching the porn they picked up at the lines then so
00:22:06
Speaker
Maybe, uh, shaking hands with a friend they met inside. Yeah. Oh yeah. Hanging out with the, you go to like, like I 70, which cuts across Kansas, like from Kansas city to Denver. There's one like right as you leave civilization, like west of Celina that.
00:22:24
Speaker
it's an old dilapidated gas station. And it's like, I mean, it's the middle of it. There's nothing around this thing, not a town for quite a while. And it's like this crappy, disgusting old gas station. And they didn't even it's a hand painted sign and they didn't even finish it. They just it just says adult. Nice. There you go. Perfect. Yeah, there's always like two cars. Unless there's only one.
00:22:52
Speaker
I love when you see that, dude. You're like, this place isn't going to last long. It's like the brunch crowd at the local strip club. Oh my God. All right. Well, I'm going to go ahead and let's go ahead and introduce our guest here. I do want to make a quick note. I'll make that. Do I want to make that before or after? It doesn't matter. Our guest is Stephanie Drury. She is known as Stuff Christian Culture Likes.
00:23:17
Speaker
on Instagram and Twitter. She posts just, you know, goofy shit that Christians like a lot of mega passive stuff. She calls out a lot of bullshit from evangelical Colton and she was really fun. It was great to talk to her and hear her story. You know, these accounts that have that kind of blow up calling out these cultures and
00:23:39
Speaker
whatever, you don't know who they are behind them. I mean, obviously, we got to talk to Christian nightmares. Granted, we don't even know his real name, so we still don't really know who he is. But getting to know these people and hearing them and their stories and why they do what they do is really fun and putting a personality behind these accounts. And it's cool. So we had a great conversation with Stephanie. The thing I do want to point out, I think I call it out in the episode too.
00:24:05
Speaker
just for my own peace of mind and people listening who know me, my family, things like that. We do talk about discipline and growing up getting spanked, people breaking cycles and things. And I was making a reference to people breaking cycles.
00:24:25
Speaker
I think people will understand. Okay. I just feel bad. I feel bad. I made a comment about like, Oh, my dad was mercilessly beaten. And then he, like breaking that cycle, like for some people might look like, you know, just not doing that, maybe just thanking kids. But my point, the only point I want to make is, it sounds like I just talk about my dad being abused as a kid. And I just don't, that's not what I was trying to do. I was just trying to make like a general statement about
00:24:53
Speaker
breaking the cycle. So yeah, he wasn't right. Yeah, I don't mean as far as I know, I don't I just want to make the point that I'm not
00:25:00
Speaker
throwing out there that my dad's a victim of childhood abuse. I just think that's important to, you know, to mention in case people are going to listen. Now they're going to be anyone who listens. It's like, it's like, oh, interesting. They talk to my dad like, I see you. I didn't realize you were abused as a kid. What are you talking about? Like, oh, yeah, your son just runs his mouth like a fucking idiot. Stay strong, Mr. Shipman. Yeah. I don't know. I felt I've been feeling a little weird about that. I just wanted to make the call out. That's all. Get off my case, man.
00:25:30
Speaker
Yeah. Good episode. Definitely some interesting things about how Stephanie grew up and her parents and stuff like that. I think you'll find it fascinating. Join the Discord if you want to hang out with us and a whole bunch of other cool people of similar upbringing. You can find the link to it in any of our social media. There's usually some pretty funny stuff being posted around in there.
00:25:58
Speaker
a lot of like, drive by things crazy things you saw. Yeah, sharing people sharing pictures of goofy Christian shit they find in the wild is always fun. Yeah, it's a blast. So join us there. And, you know, as always, if you like the show, we would really appreciate it if you'd leave us a review on iTunes. Share with a friend. And yeah, so with that in mind,
00:26:27
Speaker
Enjoy our conversation with Stephanie Drury. All right, everybody. We are here with our guest, Stephanie Drury. You might know her as stuff Christian culture likes on Instagram and Twitter.
Growing Up Evangelical
00:26:44
Speaker
And Stephanie, thanks so much for hanging out with us. Thanks for having me on.
00:26:48
Speaker
Yeah, so I feel like there's a lot about you that is going to be interesting that I have really no clue about. I feel like I'm pretty new to, I'm not super new to the Instagram, but following you on Twitter is a bit newer and I feel like that lets people into your life a little bit more.
00:27:06
Speaker
It's probably maybe not. I don't know. Well, maybe I don't read good on Instagram. Oh, it's been laughing at your mind for a while. That's for sure. Oh, dude. Thank you. No, Instagram, I just I've been doing the Twitter for like 10 years. And then I just only like a year ago, I started just basically doing what I do on Twitter, I just copy it and put it on Instagram, just in case like the platform dies. I won't I just can't do tik tok. I'm
00:27:35
Speaker
that ship is sailed. But I'm like, I'm fluent in Instagram. So yeah, it's just a bunch of like double I feel I feel bad about the double posting. Yeah, well, people are not I'm new to Twitter. And that is a weird world. I'm not sure I love it yet. But well, it's such like my kids are 16 and 19. And they're like, only old people are on Twitter. And I'm like, I think you're right. I do. Yeah, the generational thing.
00:28:02
Speaker
I like that idea. How old are you guys? Can I ask just for point of reference? Yeah, so I'm 33. I'm 34.
00:28:14
Speaker
OK, perfect. So it's like, yeah, a little bit of a little bit of a gap, but not enough where it doesn't seem like we're on too dissimilar of a wavelength when it comes to Christian experience. It's like we all have the same resilience about switching over to TikTok. I think that's an age. That's between us and the younger generation. We're like, it's just such a toilet.
00:28:41
Speaker
That's the next gap. So Stephanie, let's get an idea of like just your general Christian upbringing. I know there's all you've done. It seems like you've been involved in a few different Christian circles that have had a lot of issues. But let's see where it all started. Yeah. So my parents are with the navigators.
00:29:06
Speaker
And I don't know if you've heard of them. They were started around the same time as Campus Crusade for Christ, like in the 50s. So it was all under the Billy Graham umbrella. Like if you're climbing, you know, if you go up to the top of the chain and it's just like this ministry. They run Nav Press Books, which, you know, is a big, I guess, Christian publishing house out of the Colorado Springs. But my parents, like my dad's an ordained Southern Baptist minister, but we did like kind of
00:29:35
Speaker
free ball ministry everywhere, like kind of lived in different places. And I wasn't ever really quite sure what they did besides people would, they'd ask me like, what does your dad do? You guys have a nice enough house and a pool and stuff. I'm like, I don't know. We pray and people send us money. So that's kind of how that went. But we, you know, we're caught, they were constantly having Bible studies and we're like, they went to like three church services, like every Sunday at different churches a lot of the times because there was like networking involved.
00:30:06
Speaker
Um, just very like Christian music, focus on the family, Dobson, Bill Gothard seminars, that sort of thing. Okay. All the good stuff. Maybe they like licked envelopes for Christian solicitation letters. So did. Oh my God. The envelopes, the amount of mail coming in and out of our house. Yes. Yeah. What about you guys? Are you preacher's kids or just who? Oh, I, you know.
00:30:35
Speaker
If they have, I haven't heard too much about it, because again, they got a lower profile, but Bill Gothard focused on the family. Oh, campus crusade. I know there's, there's kind of controversy there. And you get this when that family, do you remember that documentary, the family that came out, I want to say a couple of years ago, I think it's still on Netflix, but it was it's about this, basically a cult out of
00:31:01
Speaker
Washington, DC, where member high ranking government officials are members of this thing. And the guy who started the National Prayer Breakfast is at the top of that chain. Well, they were showing a lot of footage in that documentary at Glen Airy in Colorado Springs. And I'm like, I basically grew up there. We went back there all the time. That was like the headquarters of the navigator. So that's when I started to go, Yeah, I kind of grew up in a cult. And
00:31:27
Speaker
It's just when it started to really click. It's like, well, it would make sense. Clint Airy was the headquarters? Mm-hmm. For the navigators. Yeah. So there's a castle out there, General Palmer built, the guy who founded Colorado Springs. And it's gorgeous. It's right by the Garden of the Gods. It's like where all the rock formations are. I mean, it really is kind of like a little Garden of Eden out there. But to make all those connections has been pretty major for me.
00:31:55
Speaker
Yeah, that's weird, man. I've been hiking at Glen Eyrie before. I feel like there was a fire there at some point and they haven't really let anyone back in since. I think you're right. I think I heard something about that. Yeah.
00:32:08
Speaker
So your parents did the navigators, you didn't really understand what they did. Were you, did you have like a regular, like throughout your childhood, uh, a regular like Sunday, that's like church service that you were a part of, or did you guys do a lot of traveling? What was that like? Yeah. Yeah. We, we were, we mainly went to Baptist and Bible churches.
00:32:25
Speaker
And we'd be at one for a few years. And then my parents would have some kind of dust up with the leadership. And a lot of it had to do with the giving. You know what? They would get confronted on how they spent the money that the church donated to their ministry. And then they'd get mad. No way. Uh-huh.
00:32:43
Speaker
Like on that pool? When they drive, what kind of car do you drive? You know what? That's interesting. They drove like these, the highest end. I remember they're into these Mitsubishi's that I want to say it's not a Galant. It had a Diamante or something. This is the 80s and 90s, but it looked exactly like a BMW. Like it was, it was like the highest end without, it wouldn't get them in too much trouble.
00:33:05
Speaker
It's like pseudo luxury. Exactly, exactly. It's like the top of the line Camry. Yes, the glorified Lexus, that top of the line. I guess a Lexus is a glorified Camry. You know, we did not personally do that, but we got invited to lots of fancy trips. Like there was a guy out of Oklahoma City whose pool at his house was shaped like an oil derrick.
00:33:35
Speaker
that we would go visit. And he take us on these trips and I'm like, I love this life, you know, like going to their house. I'm like, they live in a palace. They basically did in Oklahoma City, of course, but they would take us on trips. They like
00:33:49
Speaker
we were gifted hashtag gifted all you know stuff constantly so that was it was a real mindfuck because you're looking at your friends whose parents like go to a regular job and I'm like what do you guys do all day besides like make a pot of coffee and sit on the couch and you know talk to people about their spiritual lives and
00:34:11
Speaker
I don't know. I don't know. It's like being a senator. It's like less about the salary and more about them perks. Oh, they had a lot of perks that they were very attached to. And to be fair, I do think that they truly believed in Jesus and they tried a lot. They tried. I think they had true conversion experiences, like in the late 60s when the Jesus movement was happening.
00:34:40
Speaker
And that's when they got involved with the ministry. They didn't really grow up in Christian households, really. So it was like a big thing for them to hear the good news and to experience something. And I'm down with that. And I feel like I always had that awareness growing up. Like, like I didn't have a problem with Jesus. I felt like I had a special, if I can say this, a special awareness that what I was seeing and what was true about Jesus, like they didn't really jibe.
00:35:09
Speaker
And that's one of my earliest memories, is kind of being aware of that. So I think that actually really helped me throughout growing up. We think that's a tough thing for... Okay, you talked to somebody who's completely outside of...
00:35:26
Speaker
Evangelical circles and they're only looking in at some of like the scandals and stuff like that. I think it's really easy to categorize all of it as like this big nefarious scam meant to like hoodwink people. And like growing up in it, I mean, even if you have a really bad taste in your mouth, like we knew so many people through those those churches and organizations and stuff that were good people with good intentions that
00:35:55
Speaker
Maybe the message got co-opted. You know, it doesn't excuse the bad things that they did, you know, misusing funds and stuff. And of course, you know, anybody who was an abuser is, there's nothing to say about them other than, you know, screw them. But there's a lot of good people that maybe took part in things that raised, you know, make you raise an eyebrow now. But, you know, they just, they weren't
00:36:17
Speaker
evil to the core or anything like that. I mean, I feel like I know what you're saying there because I have a lot of that same experience where I'm like, yeah, they're not bad people. Just the message was co-opted. Yeah. And that makes it tough. You know, you have to hold that tension for a lot of it. And you also want to name outright abuse and especially if they won't acknowledge it. And so I think that's where a lot of the most damage is done.
00:36:45
Speaker
in that space. They so frequently don't acknowledge it either, and that's what's really difficult. There's so many opportunities to do the right thing and acknowledge the issues and sweep them along. If you just did the right thing, you might not have so many people hating you right now. There'd still be plenty.
00:37:06
Speaker
just be like, Oh, shit, this person did this and we need to deal with it. And then people might actually respect you even if they don't agree with you. Exactly. Yeah, like this circle the wagons around the worst people and it's like sometimes you want to just grab somebody that you know, it'd be like, you have no kinship with this person. They suck. Just let them suck. We don't have to defend them. Yeah, and they're invested for a reason. They're like this person, I need this person to hold up my the
00:37:35
Speaker
scaffolding that I've created around my worldview so that I don't have to let it crumble and face the sorrow and grief under that. That's what I think. Yeah, 100% comes down to yeah. So did you I mean, your parents did that all through high school. Did you like carry on to like,
00:37:58
Speaker
Christian college? What was your Christian experience after kind of moving out on your own in heaven? Did you make your faith your own? Was it a personal thing? You know, I did. I did. And I feel like I said a little bit earlier that I had
00:38:16
Speaker
an actual encounter with whoever Christ truly is, Christ consciousness, whatever you want to call it, that really sustained me and I couldn't explain it to anyone. So it was really, it was private. And for that reason, when I went to college, I went to and didn't
Mental Health and the Church
00:38:32
Speaker
go to Christian schools. I went to the University of Arkansas and then I graduated from Texas State University.
00:38:37
Speaker
And they, when I was there, I would kind of like, would check out ministries like Campus Crusade, and see what was going on, because that was comfortable and familiar. But it's also, that's when I started to get really tired of it. Like, all right, you want us to witness? I'm like, that's the dumbest thing I've ever heard of. You know, witness, do you know the whole witnessing culture? Like,
00:38:59
Speaker
Yeah, we went to Liberty University. Oh, that's right. That's right. You talked about that. Oh my goodness. That's one of your required classes. Of course it is. It's so, it's the stupidest thing. It's so contrived. It's so manipulative. It's so not what Jesus did. Like didn't Jesus live to be 30 before he even opened his mouth about any of his close ministry?
00:39:24
Speaker
He just had friends, you know, right? Anyway, yeah, don't get me started on that. But I just remember like really losing momentum with it around college, as far as the culture and again, kind of being confused about relationships as far as like, all right, they're pressuring, they really want us to get married. What is that about? And purity culture and being like, what is this shit? And also, is yeah, so much around that. So I just started like,
00:39:54
Speaker
having like my anxiety and depression started surfacing around then. And I really felt like it was connected to that I was actually diagnosed with depression when I was 13. And no one did it went untreated. It was just like, it was a diagnosis. And they're like, Oh, okay, so that's what's wrong with you. You're depressed, nothing happened. And I started actually having panic attacks in college. And I knew it had to do with all of this morality and
00:40:25
Speaker
Also, the fact that I just wasn't loved. There wasn't love in the community. There wasn't love in the church that I could find. There were people who didn't go to church that I found to be really loving and caring. And so I had to reconcile that. And that was like a giant thing I'd been suppressing probably all my life to realize. Yeah.
00:40:50
Speaker
I do think my parents loved me, but they loved me as much as they could. And they had their own stuff they were dealing with from their growing up. And there just weren't a lot of resources there. And so I was kind of on my own.
00:41:06
Speaker
came crumbling down just when you're really, it's terrifying to have anxiety and depression. And you're always wondering, is my life, am I going to die any second by my own hand or by a heart attack type of thing? And it wasn't as easy to talk about back then. So this was like the mid 90s, I guess. And I was kind of alone with that. So I really do think that the cognitive dissonance required to be in Christian culture
00:41:34
Speaker
was at the root of that. Yeah. Did you start getting your, like, so I'm guessing that your untreated depression had a lot to do with just mental health issues not being taken seriously in the church. Is that the case there? Yeah. Yeah. And, you know, just, just lack of family support. Like they, just the whole culture of not listening, just inability to listen and to be told you just need to pray harder and obey God better.
00:42:02
Speaker
when you're trying to go to them with what is this profound grief I'm feeling that I'm constantly trying to shove down. And I now see my all anxiety and depression as a kind of canary in the coal mine.
00:42:19
Speaker
going something's wrong and you need to pay attention. It's your body trying to get your attention because the body keeps the score and all of your stuff is stored in your cells. And if you press it down long enough, it's, it's, it's going to come out sideways, you know? So, uh, did you start dealing with it? Yeah. Sorry. Did you start dealing with before you like your faith started? Like before you started having like this disconnect or does that like a simultaneous kind of thing? Yeah, I think.
00:42:48
Speaker
You know, they were so intertwined. I think it was kind of like chicken egg with the two things. So I'm just really grateful. It's that's so much more acceptable to talk about now. Because being alone with it is the very worst part. Yeah, I can imagine that being
00:43:04
Speaker
I, luckily, you know, I mean, I never outside of like your typical childhood here and there's of feeling down in the dumps. It's like that. It's like anyone's experienced that on a general level. And I just can't imagine the feeling that it was for people who had actual depression and anxiety that
00:43:24
Speaker
just that was a baseline for them or a constant and went untreated. And that, you know, I could actually probably trick myself into thinking that because it was like, you would have loads like moments here or there. But because like, if I did pray and read my Bible, like, given enough time, I'm going to feel better because that's just how I was. So but I could probably trick myself into thinking that.
00:43:50
Speaker
So prayerful reflection prescribed to you did work. Is that what you're saying? Yeah, I can trick myself at that time. I don't think I was doing it into thinking that like, oh, I prayed and read my Bible, and three days later, I'm feeling better. So maybe there is something to that message as opposed to doctors consistently give you the placebo drug, Sam. Yes. Well, you know what?
00:44:10
Speaker
That's how it works, you know, like you have no other option. You're like, I have to feel better. And so I'm going to make myself feel better. The Bible, you know, and they're the Bible, certain parts of it can be comforting to think certain parts not. But I know what you mean, like, okay, I'll just dig into this and keep on not trusting my heart because it's deceitful above all things who can know it.
00:44:34
Speaker
So yeah, yeah, it's like horse. I mean, I don't know. Dig if you're into horoscopes, but I know. And it's like it's like that. Oh, you everyone sees themselves in something if you're just told it the right way. And Christianity uses a lot of similar mechanisms, I think. Yeah, yeah, I can totally see that.
00:44:53
Speaker
So you said you stopped going to church around like being in college and you, but you didn't really start thinking like, you felt that disconnect of, I don't, you had your own personal experience with Christ, as you said, or whatever that is. And then you stopped really going to church because of the disconnect in behavior and life change. But what was next for you when you like,
00:45:20
Speaker
as far as how, what your involvement looked like in Christianity from there. You know, I never really fully stopped going to church because there, there was always something about church that I like. Like I could, I can go to almost any church and like, I like going when they're empty and there's no one else here.
00:45:37
Speaker
because it's the people, it's the culture that's really triggering for me, but there's something holy there that I do like. And I couldn't even name that at the time. I'm still trying to separate the culture out from actual ancient Christianity. And so I got married and moved to Seattle. My husband, he
00:46:00
Speaker
has a, let's see, his master's in theology from Regent College. He's a Baptist preacher's kid too, but from San Francisco Bay Area. So different, you know, you'd think that would be a different culture, but it's not. It's like, I was like, yay, I'm getting out of the South. But this culture around this, you know, the West Coast Christian is exactly the same. Let me tell you, it's exactly the same as the uniform.
00:46:25
Speaker
Yeah, but we went so we moved to Seattle and I That's when my panic attacks started ramping up after a little bit because My siblings they were gradually, you know, they graduated college and moved away too and they were also having anxiety and they Started therapy. So we each started therapy in different states, you know and they and we each asked our parents will you go to counseling with us because
00:46:55
Speaker
This is the root of a lot of issues here is, you know, some relational stuff. And so we need to discuss our upbringing and discuss our current relational patterns. And our parents told each of us no, and they said,
00:47:09
Speaker
It's too bad we're never going to talk to any of you ever again. Like this was the email that I got from, yeah, my parents flat disowned me. I had my pastor, our pastor at the time, we were going to a Presbyterian church and he knew my parents. And so he emailed them and CC'd all of us. He's like, I would love to mediate with you if you don't want to go to counseling. Like maybe I could be the mediator since you know me.
00:47:30
Speaker
And their response was, it's too bad that Stephanie has chosen to walk away from us. And it's too bad that our grandchildren will grow up not knowing us. And our pastor replied to it, and he's like, this is heartbreaking. No one said anything about never seeing you again. Stephanie wants a relationship with you.
00:47:52
Speaker
And it looks like there needs to be mediation in order for there to be both sides to be heard. And they're just like, it's just this is so tragic. Stephanie has done this. And to this day, that's what they want. Yeah. Yeah. And they did it on my brother. Yeah. And they did it to my brother and they did it to my sister. There's only three of us in the family. Yeah. Yeah. So I what is it? Yeah.
00:48:19
Speaker
So are they still involved in ministry and stuff like that, or are they retired from it? Well, that's another interesting story because my husband, David, emailed the head of the navigators and goes, do you know that you have people on your staff who are ministering to people who are not in relationship with their children?
00:48:37
Speaker
And the navigator's response was, oh, Stephanie's parents are really scary, so we're not going to confront them. That was their response. God damn. That's like running them up. Thank you. They were so protected. So 10 years later, that guy retired, and we heard about it. So David emailed the new head of the navigators, and he explained the situation.
00:49:01
Speaker
And this guy listened. And this guy said, Yeah, that's an issue. That's really too bad. And we can't be having that. And so he went to my parents, they told the parents, they told my parents, and I guess they told everyone in the organization that they were restructuring.
00:49:15
Speaker
I mean, I'm not saying that they just made up a story. I think they actually were restructuring. And they go, if you're on staff, we need you to reapply for your job so we can do a fit thing and figure out where to redistribute everybody. And as part of the new contract with my parents, they go, you're going to need to go to counseling with your children and be in relationship with them. And they had all these resources for, I guess there's a lot of reconciliation ministries and people who are
00:49:43
Speaker
mediators with juris doctorates and stuff who will do this, which is great. And so they offered all these resources. And my parents response was we're going to retire instead of do this. That's unfucking believable. And no one really. Yeah, that's what everyone says. And no one also, no one cares, you know, it's like, it's, that's the problem is that there's just so much like,
00:50:09
Speaker
Huh, how about that? Well, that's really too bad. And no one thinks about the impact that has on kids who are products of this. But I think that this is what is at the heart of Christian culture is that they will disown you.
00:50:23
Speaker
or you're abandoned if you don't fall in line because I don't like to throw the word cult around, but that's what cults do. They're like, you need to line up and do what we say and any independent thinking is seen as an affront. Yes, that's where my anxiety and depression was like screaming at me.
00:50:43
Speaker
And it was terrifying to realize this, like I did have like a massive grief response. And I got, you know, I luckily found a really good counselor who I've had bad counseling, and I've had really good counseling this time. I had really good counseling, because they basically saved my life and, and said, just just help me see a way forward and and grieve what I needed to.
00:51:07
Speaker
and separate from all of that. But that's why I started Stuff Christian Culture Likes because that culture was just, I saw how devastating it was to me and to all of my friends growing up and people who were either in the church or were leaving it, it all came down to this. And no one could really quite put a name to what the exact problem was. But just there's so much lament around
00:51:36
Speaker
around it. And it's not born of love. Love doesn't do that to you. Love heals. Love allows.
00:51:44
Speaker
I mean, it's interesting because earlier you were talking about, you know, you do feel that your parents loved you in the way that they knew how, but as soon as that, because it's not like counseling is like, correct me if I'm wrong, it doesn't sound like you walked into that conversation saying, or maybe your siblings did, but we reject our faith and it harmed us and we need counseling. It sounds like that wasn't really part of the conversation. So they weren't,
00:52:11
Speaker
There was no talk of walking away from the faith, it sounds like. No, there was a counseling part. They had a problem. Yeah. Yeah. Well, if you've got, if you don't want to apologize for stuff, the thing is they can't apologize. Like they don't feel sorry for things. They don't, they've never apologized to me for anything. Um, they were, yeah. And that's, you know, that's what it comes down to. And that's how I'm able to have healthy relationships now is to realize, Oh, is this, can this person care about my feelings?
00:52:41
Speaker
And that's all it takes. All you need is reciprocity and for someone to listen to you and take you seriously. And that's it. But there's so many people who can't do that, as I'm sure you both know.
00:52:55
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. Well, and I mean, there's got to be like some deep psychological damage. Something happened to them at some point at an earlier time that that has just robbed them of their humanity in that way. But I get what you're saying. Like, you know, I kind of I feel that too, where it's like getting really frustrated and disillusioned with constantly hearing
00:53:20
Speaker
the language of loving your neighbor and ministering to people and caring for the community and bringing people in and you know all of that all of that verbiage that gets used all the time within church and within christian you know everything and yet just never feeling it like needing something needing help or needing just something as simple as friendship
00:53:45
Speaker
and just not getting it. It's like this is a burden and we have bigger fish to fry. We're trying to send so and so to the mission field in Papua New Guinea or something like that. So you're being a pest. And really what it comes down to is not like ministering to people a lot of times. It's like you're driving by and you're like, hey, we're headed this way if you guys wanna come, but just be quiet.
00:54:14
Speaker
It's so sterile and just like, I don't know, it just feels like cold and sterile and like indifferent towards people. Yes, it is because there's no love. And it's like they're out. So at least in I think what we came up in, like, there was that emphasis on like, there would be the conversations around, you know, what it's like to be Jesus. But it was never because
00:54:41
Speaker
It was never because that was just what you should do in light of what you believe it's, it got turned into a soul saving game, right? You do it so that other people can then you can like, it's they want to be mimetic in some way and then and then but once you when you lose it when you don't have the same beliefs anymore, now that's a threat and now you're going to hurt the cause of bringing people in.
00:55:03
Speaker
and rinse and repeat.
Deconstructing Evangelical Culture
00:55:07
Speaker
And it does become devoid of any real love. It's just their actions for the sake of gaining a desired outcome as opposed to just for the sake of them. Yeah. Yeah, that's it. I mean, it doesn't, love needs to be the center of it. And if it's not, then
00:55:27
Speaker
everything is going to end in harm. So that's when, when I started really deconstructing that as part of, of all of this, I started my Stuff Christian Culture Likes blog. I was actually, and we did blog, this was in, I want to say it was 08 that I started it because that's when everyone was blogging. And I was on a road trip with my really good friends who are atheists and
00:55:53
Speaker
that this was, uh, let's see, McCain and who, who was running? Was it Bush or what am I thinking of? Oh, they're talking about 2008 was McCain. That was McCain and Palin against, uh, the, yeah, Obama, Obama and Biden. So we were, you know, we had all this time in the car and these eight, these people had grown up without any kind of religious, I guess, like some random religious stuff, but they're, you know,
00:56:19
Speaker
atheists. And they're like, what is the Christian draw to these warmongers? And I'm like, Oh, let me tell you all about that. They're like, jeez, I'm like,
00:56:28
Speaker
Yeah, I kind of do. They go, you should start a blog. I'm like, yeah, maybe we shouldn't. So I just at the time that book called Stuff White People Like was big. And I mean, this was like I keep saying like 15 years ago by now. But so I was like, OK, I know it's not Christian culture like so that's and I like there was already a Stuff Christians like blog with this guy, John Acuff ran it. And that was huge. But it was also straight up Christian culture. And I was trying to like
00:56:55
Speaker
in a parse out what is actual ancient Christianity and what is evangelical culture. So that's what I was kind of trying to highlight. If I were to do it now, I would call it evangelical stuff because that's kind of the buzzword. But right, that's when I started that it was a big part of my deconstruction and it like
00:57:14
Speaker
You know, I started the Facebook page along with it and then the Twitter and, you know, people were like on board with it because it was speaking to a lot of the stuff. And now there's all this stuff. I mean, there was that people have always been doing. I'm not saying I was the first at all, but it just the response kind of like overwhelm me. Like, goodness, there's more people talking about this out here. This is great. I've never been able to talk about it.
00:57:38
Speaker
Yeah, that must have been fairly validating and reassuring, especially because when you actually when you remove yourself from those circles, you forget. And if you're not around it and around people who are dealing with the same things, you forget that. I mean, I mean, I think that's what's so neat about what we're seeing now. It's a terrible word for it because it's people talking about their pain. But it is like, I mean, holy shit, like it's across
00:58:02
Speaker
I mean, at least our country, like there's something particularly American about our brand of evangelicalism. Other countries, I'm sure deal with it in similar ways. But obviously what I know is what I see here. And you've just been watching like
00:58:17
Speaker
You've been watching this come to a boil for a while and now even the response to the evangelical culture now is like they're finally talking about all these expats and they're like doing it so poorly and they don't even know what to do to keep it in and it's all just like grasping at straws and saying stupid shit.
00:58:37
Speaker
try to dismiss it when you got to dismiss such a huge movement. It's not like small anymore. It's like everyone's talking about it, posting about it, joining in on the conversation. And it's happening so publicly that their lack of response for so long and then their response to it has been pretty poor. Yeah, 100%. Did you get any pushback from people you knew or family members or anything? I mean, besides your
00:59:04
Speaker
I'm sure your parents aren't a big fan. Well, they don't talk to me, so I don't know. But what they will tell people is that I tell lies about them on the internet. That's gotten back to me. But that's about it.
00:59:21
Speaker
That, you know, yeah, it's sad. My kids are 19 and 16. My 19-year-old barely remembers them, and my 16-year-old doesn't at all. And I'm like, it's just how we had to do it, because it was a harmful, toxic relationship. But I want to say that, just to brag on my kids, sort of, for a second, that they are really good with people.
00:59:46
Speaker
their friend groups, they are like, you know, that person doesn't care about my feelings. So I'm just not going to hang out with them anymore. And I'm like, I still can't do that. And I'm 46. So they've seen it modeled. And you know, we love them. And we we validate their feelings. And we
01:00:02
Speaker
Listen to them and that's really all it takes we don't punish you know cool light skill to have before you 30 So my son the 19 year old he he's like my friends make fun of me because you guys have never punished me and
01:00:20
Speaker
And he said, he said, you guys just asked me, like, well, what do you want to do? And how do you feel about that? And what do you think the consequences would be? And I'm like, yeah, I guess that's true. Like, we don't spank, we don't ground, you know, and we just asked them what they think. And like, who are we to tell them what to do when they're great kids? Like, I don't know. I don't know. I'm just so glad that
01:00:47
Speaker
to be breaking the cycle I guess is what I'm trying to say yeah that's like life that's paired I mean that's I feel like every well not everyone but that's the conversation my wife and have a lot too is like you're just like all right like what can we just do better I don't know I mean my kids will probably have something that they're
01:01:05
Speaker
that they'll talk to their friends about when they're my age and they're trying to raise kids. And there's going to be something they want to do better too. But the idea behind breaking the cycle in certain cycles is that feels like what parenting should be. And I don't know why that was, I don't know. I'm not sure that that conversation was exactly the same. But also, when you look at some of the cycles that boomers are trying to break or people in the previous generations,
01:01:35
Speaker
A lot of people who grew up in the 70s were beaten really bad by their fathers. The fact that I was just spanked when my dad might have been mercilessly beaten, it is still breaking some sort of cycle, right? Well, actually being spanked, that is beating. And that has taken me a long time to realize in therapy. They're like, you were beaten.
01:01:59
Speaker
I'm like, no, no, no, you kind of, you know, it was it's corporal punishment. It does the same thing to your, your,
01:02:07
Speaker
cerebral cortex, it affects you psychologically. So I just want to throw that out there. But I suppose an occasional spank is an improvement over being mercilessly beaten with a belt, I suppose. But there's this adopted culture where they were like, have the instrument with which you spank your kids, have it out so that they can see it all the time.
01:02:30
Speaker
It's that is just really messed up. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. That's a tangential question for you. But because you guys are both parents. So like I was watching this thing the other day, it was a Dr. Phil episode about this like weird, just grotesque
01:02:47
Speaker
quote unquote, school for troubled girls, had all these women that had gone to it. And it was interesting because they used the same curriculum that they used at my Christian school, which was super fun. But a cornerstone of this place and like their view on like what's wrong with the world and stuff. And I've seen this to a lesser degree, but in other circles is like spanking, like spanking has been
01:03:13
Speaker
ousted from society and this is the result. Look at all these terrible kids. Why is spanking like such a cornerstone thing for those groups of people? Like what is it about that that makes them so obsessed with it? I feel like I can tell you why. Because it gets results.
01:03:32
Speaker
When you have a need to control someone or something, especially a small child that is utterly dependent on you, that is your temptation. You want to beat the shit out of them. I get it. I've been there. It's so difficult.
01:03:47
Speaker
When this when this you have you have changed you have rearranged your fucking life for this child you have given them you All your finances all your retirement like all every emotional droplet and then they're like I don't want to eat my pee and you're like I
01:04:04
Speaker
I am going to put my fist through this wall just to not it's just like it activates something in you so I think that give that is why like historically you beat children's like they're seen not heard and it takes different iterations throughout every generation but I just want to validate the the primal thing that will come up and you know what that could probably come from the history of being spanked and
01:04:29
Speaker
I think that when you personally were spanked, it's more of a like an impulse to do to your own kids. Because I do have friends who grew up like hippies who weren't spanked. And they're like, God, I don't really want to do that to my kids. I get mad at them. But I'm like, No, I've had like extreme anger reactions where I'm like, I need to go into another room because you just really something happened with my mood just now. So
01:04:55
Speaker
Um, I just want to put that out there. Has anybody tried tasing? Okay. I don't want to, yeah, we shouldn't joke about that because they do that. That has happened. You know, I'm not trying to say, I'm not trying to say, don't joke about it because it does seem ridiculous. But you know, you wouldn't believe what they do. Like I've talked to, I talked, I work with survivors as part of, um, just some side stuff that I do. And they're like, you know, the Doug Wilson Cole, like I was beaten with special, like certain, um,
01:05:23
Speaker
Like insulation tubing because they there's all this paraphernalia that these ministries put out there like this won't leave bruises on your children So you won't get in trouble. So she was this God. Yeah, and yeah
01:05:36
Speaker
Beating seems to be a central part of cult discipline. Almost every cult, if you read into them a little ways, you find out that they beat people who were a problem.
01:05:54
Speaker
benign, you know, at face value, like the most benign, like Heaven's Gate. Yeah, they're like these vegan, non aggressive, hippie types, you know, crazy, by all counts, but they beat their members, you know, it's, it's, but your explanation of that makes so much sense. I mean, I, I guess I've never heard it explained that way. But it's, yeah, I guess, I mean, it makes sense.
01:06:20
Speaker
Now, I do want to make a quick note. I was being, just for the sake of anyone listening, not to clear things up with you, because what do you really know about my life or my parents' history? But I don't know that my dad was mercilessly beaten. I was just trying to make a hyperbolistic split, so I want to clear the end there.
01:06:39
Speaker
I want to say that I haven't like, flown off and like, beat my children, but I wanted to, you know, I just I just want to acknowledge. Oh, yeah. I hope I don't get in trouble for saying I mean, I hope that I say that because I want to validate that impulse. Like, it's like, I'm so frustrated. And they're like, Good, thank you for talking about this to me, your counselor, this is where you should bring it, you know, and
01:07:02
Speaker
I mean, my kids are still young. My kids are five and four. And when you're trying to put them to bed and they're throwing a fit. And you've had a long day and they will not stay in there. Yes. Yeah.
01:07:14
Speaker
It's the first time it's sunk in because that's the reaction that you would get as a kid. If you get out of bed, again, you're getting spanking and then you would stay in bed because that was scary. I wanted to say that so many times because I know it will work and that's when the results being kicked in. It works. It gets you what you want in the moment.
01:07:34
Speaker
I just well, my friends who foster their the there's rules strict rules with foster parents like absolutely no spanking of any kind. And when I first heard that, I'm like, how do you write that? I didn't know you could parent without spanking, you know, this is before I had kids. And anyway, but it's just scientifically proven. It's it's clinically linked to anxiety and depression, all manner of mental illness to be spanked in childhood. So it's it's a bad thing. I know, like I said, it forces you to acquiesce.
01:08:03
Speaker
I know of a couple who chose not to, someone I know through someone, but they chose not to foster because they couldn't not, they couldn't not spank. They're like, it's a biblical mandate and we want to do like help children, but we just, we can't in good conscience foster kids without spanking them. So. Biblical pandate. Pretty fucked up, but.
01:08:27
Speaker
Is that like a passage in the Bible? Spare the rodswell, child. Yeah, you could like, you could link it if you wanted to. I don't think it's, I mean, it was a Bible was written in a time where you would beat your kids for not listening. So I mean, themes are there for sure. Those underlying verse themes like, you know, you got to stand for the national anthem.
01:08:51
Speaker
Okay. You know, I had a counselor tell me once she, she said that passage actually when they're speaking, where they're speaking of the rod, that is the shepherd staff that was very tall and had the crook in it. And it was so the sheep could see where the shepherd was and have guidance. And that's what the rod was so that your child could always see where you were and know that you were a secure and safe and loving presence that it was never meant to say, you need to beat your children with the rod.
01:09:19
Speaker
Interesting. Well, we fucked that one up, I guess. You guys must be reading New King James. That's the official translation of Liberty, I understand.
01:09:33
Speaker
Stephanie, I don't know if this is something you go into, if we can clip this if it's not and strike the question from the record, but you you were part of Mars Hill, is that? Oh, well, I don't know if you want to go into that. Oh, absolutely. No, I love talking about it. Christianity Today will not talk to me about it because I'm yeah, I'm I'm I saw a screenshot of a DM that the producer of Christianity Today sent my friend
01:10:01
Speaker
And he said that I am hostile. I have vitriol and I'm quote, frankly, vulgar. I'll talk to you all about it. You know, it's cool to do an entire podcast on a pastor that called women penis homes, but I'm too vulgar for doing a parody account and saying things like he said. Anyway, fun things to say about the
01:10:24
Speaker
like oral sex and stuff like that. I don't know if he was obsessed with that. Did you read his thing where he goes, do not jerk off in the mirror, because that's sinful, because that's basically being gay. And it's like, okay, Mark, I guess that's something you do and you struggle with. So thank you for letting us in on that. He's a narcissist. And he loves himself. And he thinks he's all horny. Oh, God, I wish my fake Driscoll account hadn't gotten taken away. Twitter just shut it down. Like no explanation around November. So
01:10:54
Speaker
I could be saying so much from that thing. But let's see, Mars Hill, a lot of my friends were going to it because it started around the time I moved here in the late 90s. And we got involved with the Presbyterian Church, a PCA church at the time. So I wasn't tempted by Mars Hill, but I did go to one sermon just because everyone was talking about it. And my vibe was
01:11:23
Speaker
The fuck is going on here. This guy is horrible Like there's just the vibe was horrible and the the audience was hanging on to his every word Just like it was a concert, you know, like oh, that's so great What are you saying? And I'm like, this is anyway, I do remember one thing he said from the pulpit whatever during the sermon was wives need to have sex with the lights on if that's what their husband wants and
01:11:47
Speaker
And I remember thinking, how many sexual abuse survivors are in this audience of at least 1000 people were there? I'm like, and how much harm is this going to do to them? The fact that he said this. So that was just my that was my first impression. So shortly after that, I started therapy, that really good therapy I told you about. And part of that was being in a group therapy setting. And there were women there who had gone to Mars Hill, they were members, and they were shaking.
01:12:13
Speaker
They were like physically shaking because they go, I'm going to get in so much trouble if they find out I'm here. As a member, I signed a covenant is what they called it. Not even a contract, a covenant is what they called it. And they said, it says I'm not supposed to get counseling from anyone who isn't in Mars Hill, like that Mars Hill doesn't approve.
01:12:31
Speaker
But those counselors just make me feel worse because they go, I had a job, I had a career, I was pressured to quit it and have babies. So I quit my job and I have these babies and now these women were experiencing suicidal ideation and they wanted to harm their children. And they were terrified of these impulses and they had nowhere to go because the Mars Hill counselors were telling them, you just need to pray harder and submit to your husband more.
01:12:55
Speaker
And so as a last ditch effort, these women, like just a small number of them came, but they were like going to get in trouble if it was found out that was where they were. And I'm like, how do I call this out? This is like a, this is a huge attack and it was hugely triggering for me.
01:13:08
Speaker
to be like, yeah, you're stuck, you're silenced, your hands are tied. So that's when I started the fake Driscoll Twitter and just kind of would say stuff in Mark's voice to like, just as a parody and within like 12 hours of starting that account, I got an email from Mars Hill where it had all this legalese and they were saying that it was like, you're allowed to have a Twitter account, but you need to make abundantly clear that this is a parody and it's not really Mark. I go, I don't know how much clearer it could be than being called fake Driscoll.
01:13:36
Speaker
And so I made that my bio, like Marcel said to tell you, this is a parody account. But yeah, so I did that for a little while. And when Mark, when Mark finally like step down, I remember like being told I got three separate messages from different people who are like, don't tell anyone this, but like you and Warren Throckmorton were the main reason he had to step down because they couldn't handle the social media onslaught.
01:14:04
Speaker
So really? Yeah, I'm not. Yeah, yeah, I guess except I accept everyone's like, aren't you glad he stepped down? And I go, No, he's just gonna move and start another church. And he totally did. In Arizona. And are you up on that about how he's separating families from each other and hiring private investigators to follow the people who are dissenting against him and stuff? Are you keeping track? Oh, my God. He's insane. It's his church in the Scientology route in Arizona. It's so very so
01:14:33
Speaker
That's fun. Wait, so you started the fake Driscoll account after you had left? How long did you go there for? I was never a member of Mars Hill. Oh, you weren't a member. I went to one sermon at Mars Hill, like 06. But I was in group therapy with women who were members of Mars Hill. And that's when I said, I have to start exposing this in some way.
01:14:59
Speaker
How do I do that? Wow. In my Liberty days, I remember him being, I get the height of his popularity. It was probably, I guess it would have been 2008 was when I went through the whole like, I'll check this guy out. And I listened to like a number of his sermons and
01:15:19
Speaker
It's so weird to look back on because at that time I was eating that shit up too. I was like, oh my God. To see the way that he taught and the way he had that authority and that this is right, that was appealing at that time. You liked seeing that kind of confidence. I'm not saying for everyone, but for me who is like Mr.
01:15:43
Speaker
Evangelical poster child and now it's like you hear any hint of that at all and it throws up so many red flags. It makes me cringe thinking about how much I found what he had to say is like a mix of entertainment and then
01:16:05
Speaker
It was also, I think maybe because at that time, I think maybe what he was meeting for people was like, there was no question. It was like, I'm giving you the answers. But he would do it with this facade of occasionally dangle this carrot in front of you that says, it's okay to think differently about a couple of things here and there. And he would let you know very clearly which ones those were. But
01:16:28
Speaker
as things went on. And I remember it like I would have been and probably I forget what his book came out one of like he wrote a couple but the one that like he got in trouble for boosting or something like that. But that was one of the first like that when I like the his like first like publicly shameful things, right? Hmm.
01:16:48
Speaker
I can't remember. Yeah, I guess he was. Because he was like, oh, he's the cussing pastor. Didn't he get that? Oh, yeah. But it was cool. That was cool. If a woman pastor had been that, that would be vulgar, frankly. Well, the first problem is the woman was a pastor. Exactly. That would never happen. That's not their goal. I mean, we wrote those female apostles out of the canon to nip that in the bud right away. Yeah.
Leaving Christianity and Finding Inclusivity
01:17:16
Speaker
So what do you think about stuff now, Stephanie? I can't tell if you still have any... Yeah. Well, I'm a member of a vineyard church. I tried to leave Christianity and I tried it out. I'm like, oh my God, if the people who...
01:17:34
Speaker
with my parents told me about God and they don't love me and they're treating me in this way, then God must not exist. And I found that not to be true.
01:17:48
Speaker
the experience I referenced earlier, I mean, I wanna say it was, I've had like some mystical experiences that won't allow me to let go of this and have really been a guidepost for me and I'm really grateful for them. I don't like to talk about them because not everyone has them and they're very strange and abstract to a lot of people. But I just wanna say that I do, this is the reason that I still go to church. I go to a Vineyard church on the weekends that has women pastors and they're affirming.
01:18:17
Speaker
Because I don't think I can sit under a male pastor again. And I can't be a member of the church. They don't call themselves penis homes. Like even though even the progressive pastors that I've had like male pastors that call themselves progressive, they just they have tons of internalized misogyny. And so do I, you know, patriarchy, but it's just something that I cannot raise my children in or I just can't be there anymore. It's just too, too much. So another thing is I love
01:18:46
Speaker
going to Catholic Mass. And before the pandemic, I went every single day before work because there was a Catholic cathedral right by my office. And now that I'm working from home, I can't do it as much, but I go as much as I can because I love it.
01:18:59
Speaker
And I won't convert to Catholicism because they don't allow women to be priests and the whole gay thing. And several other things associated with organized religion. But I have to say, I love Jesus. I love going to churches. And there's something special to me about Catholic churches because the Blessed Sacrament is there.
01:19:22
Speaker
And, you know, the whole doctrine of transubstantiation where they say that, you know, Catholics believe that they're, that's the actual presence of Christ in the host. And that, you know, I was always taught growing up, oh, Catholics, that's idolatry, they worship.
01:19:37
Speaker
Statues they worship Mary like that's nuts transubstantiation isn't real and now I'm kind of like there's something magical about being in this peaceful church like Catholic churches feel different than Protestant churches and But what my conclusion to that is that the Blessed Sacrament is there? So there's just something mystical and lovely about being in a Catholic Church I just I really love it and I'll go up and get a blessing when everyone else is getting communion and that's really special to me like I feel something when I'm there and I
01:20:05
Speaker
I just have to believe that love is the bottom line and it does exist. It's just obscured in the church in a lot of places out of the need for control. So if we can just bring the focus back to loving people and elevating people on the margins like Jesus did, I think that's actual Christianity.
01:20:30
Speaker
Yeah, it sounds like sounds like you draw a lot of like peace and and such from like
01:20:40
Speaker
You know, just being in a spiritual environment and some of the ritual and symbolism and stuff like that involved. Is it kind of like a meditative state for you when you're in those atmospheres? It can be, but more than that, it feels like I'm connecting with something kind of heavenly.
01:21:07
Speaker
if I can say that. I want to differentiate it from meditation just in that I believe I practice Transcendental Meditation. And I believe that that is kind of letting go of your thoughts and settling into your body and feeling. And that's how I differentiate meditation from
01:21:24
Speaker
what I experience in churches. So I get what you're saying because it is so peaceful, but there's just something to it. I just feel really reassured and safe. I feel like there is love there. So I think it says something too that I feel safer in empty churches than I do when there's people there because the people have historically been pretty harmful. Not all, you know, hashtag not all
01:21:52
Speaker
Christians, some of my greatest healing has been through love. Other people have shown me, but there's a lot of baggage around it. It says something though that I even like to go because people say you should not still want to go to church. Most people who've been through what you've been through don't even want to walk into the building. And I'm like, yeah, I know.
01:22:12
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, seriously. I think I mean, I think what you had to say about that is really neat. I think it's well, I think it's beautiful. I think that, you know, a lot of people in your in your space of the continually calling out the bad aspects of bad culture, you know, they get lumped in with, oh, you like
01:22:36
Speaker
people who just hate the church or another one of those people who abandoned the faith and now they're just reeling against something that they're angry with a God they don't believe in. They say all those dumb fucking things about it. But for you to be able to have those experiences, call out that culture and still find peace and meaning and love in that space as done in a way that feels authentic. I think it's really cool.
01:23:06
Speaker
Yeah, it's been a gift. It really has. I feel hesitant to even be really talking about it because I don't want to make anyone feel like, oh, you need to go back into a system that has harmed you. But that's not what I'm experiencing when I do it. I'm pretty careful about that now. Yeah.
Creating a Safe Space Online
01:23:27
Speaker
Finally, at this ripe old age of 46. Well, Stephanie, this has been a lot of fun. I really appreciate your talking with us, telling us your story, and I really appreciate your Instagram and your Twitter accounts, that's for sure. Thank you so much. Is there anything you want to say that you didn't get to, or you have any thoughts that you want to get out before we wrap up here?
01:23:55
Speaker
Oh, that's so kind. I don't think so. I've talked quite enough and I just really appreciate your curiosity and having a platform. So thank you guys. Yeah. Yeah. Um, so on Twitter and Instagram and Facebook, it's what, it's just stuff. Christian culture likes. You can find you there. Uh, Facebook and Twitter. I'm sorry. Facebook and Instagram are at stuff. Christian culture likes and Twitter is stuff. CC likes now. Okay. Uh, Facebook count has recently, I can't post to it.
01:24:26
Speaker
It's very strange. Oh, that's fun. Yeah. Yeah, that's it kind of happened around the same time as the Twitter, big Driscoll Twitter going down. But we'll have to get Zuck on the phone. I know. I know. What's going on, you guys? So he's building a rocket. I mean, I only I just kind of mouth off and I just want to create a safe space for people who need to be construct the stuff and don't know how to start. So that's all I'm doing. I won't write a book. I won't.
01:24:55
Speaker
Take money for anything I do because I don't want that conflict of interest because I've seen what that does So you're calling what you do a ministry though People have told me that it's acted like that, but that's fine, but you know, I'm not going around saying anything
01:25:20
Speaker
But, I mean, you guys, I think that what you guys are doing is really, you know, cathartic for a lot of people, so this actually seems like a ministry in its own right, maybe. Thank you. Hey, maybe Liberty is, maybe they can accept their role in this, as pushing me into the ministry then. Yeah, don't hold your breath, right? Man, well, Stephanie, thanks so much, and I guess everyone, we will see you next time.
01:26:00
Speaker
you