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S1 E18 - Jamie Waggoner - Author, Pagan High Priestess and Witch
14 Plays7 days ago
In this Week's episode i have the pleasure of speaking to Jamie being a Pagan Priestess and Witch
We also talk about witchcraft, magic and the Occult.
We also speak about how to Clear, Ward and Protect Spaces from Negative energy, and we discuss Five Natural Allies for Paranormal Protection
Recommended
Transcript
Intro
Introduction of Jamie Wagner and Discussion on Paganism
00:00:12
Lee Hatfield
Hello everybody and welcome to the latest episode of SIPA Paranormal Chronicles. Today I am more than delighted to have Jamie Wagner with us. Jamie is an author, a pagan high priestess, a witch, community leader and creative professional.
00:00:28
Lee Hatfield
Jamie, welcome and thank you for coming.
00:00:32
Jamie
Oh, thank you so much, Lee. I'm really delighted to be here.
00:00:36
Lee Hatfield
So as we've just been talking offline, I know absolutely nothing about paganism. I'm going to put my hands up and say and know nothing. So let's let's let's jump straight in. And if you can explain to me what paganism is and then lead into what does a pagan high priestess does, please
00:00:58
Jamie
Sure, I would be pleased to do that. So, you know, like like many spiritual spiritualities, religions, things like that, there's not just one thing that's paganism. There's lots of different variations.
00:01:12
Jamie
And people believe a lot of different things.
00:01:14
Lee Hatfield
Yeah, something that's a little bit of a lighter color, but without being, like the other thing, like about why it gets dirty.
00:01:15
Jamie
Myself, personally, I'm what they call a hard atheist. That means I believe in all the gods around the world throughout time and throughout belief systems.
00:01:27
Jamie
But I choose to interact with just a a small few of them that really resonate with my practice.
00:01:31
Lee Hatfield
Yeah, which goes with everything.
00:01:33
Jamie
And within paganism, there are differing beliefs. know, some some folks, you know, they see gods as archetypes. You know, they see, you know, mythology as a pathway to personal improvement and things like that.
00:01:42
Lee Hatfield
And then it's adjustable, so.
00:01:45
Jamie
So it can really vary. And I think, you know, when most people think of someone that's a pagan or a witch, they maybe immediately think of like Wicca.
00:01:54
Lee Hatfield
Yeah.
00:01:54
Jamie
But it's just that's just one thing in a very, very broad category of of belief systems. And, you know, mostly I work with gods from Greek mythology, although I do work with some other pantheons, a Welsh pantheon and some other pantheons.
00:02:04
Lee Hatfield
Yeah.
00:02:09
Jamie
And within paganism, there are some folks that like to try and reconstruct what pagan belief systems might've been like and what pagan practices might've been in ancient times.
00:02:21
Jamie
They're called reconstructionists. I'm not one of those. I'm very eclectic. I do research a lot because I write about about the gods and about to work with them, how to practice with them.
00:02:30
Lee Hatfield
So how did
00:02:32
Jamie
However, um you know, Within, i have a lot of respect for ancient ways, ancient belief systems, but I also try to incorporate sort of my modern take on them.
Jamie's Journey into Paganism
00:02:43
Jamie
So I hope that answers your question.
00:02:45
Lee Hatfield
yeah also so how did you get involved with paganism
00:02:50
Jamie
Well, um so back in the late 1990s, when I was in college, I'm totally going to date myself now.
00:02:55
Lee Hatfield
But because
00:02:58
Jamie
But I have a degree in philosophy um um and I majored in philosophy. And my for my final thesis project, I decided to write a paper about reemerging goddess traditions and goddess groups and circles that were forming at that time.
00:03:14
Jamie
And back in those days, there really was kind of a resurgence of this research.
00:03:17
Lee Hatfield
can all change it.
00:03:20
Jamie
And a lot of people were, a lot of women in particular were writing about it. And I was really studying it from an academic sort of perspective. my My background is not in paganism. I was raised in the Christian church in a pretty conservative family.
00:03:36
Jamie
So i for me, it was just academic interest. And then, you know, started researching more and more. And but i mean, over a year or two, I just ended up falling in love with the goddess.
00:03:48
Jamie
it just really It just really spoke to me and spoke to my heart. so
00:03:52
Lee Hatfield
so
00:03:52
Jamie
Yeah, I kind of came in through the academic door.
00:03:55
Lee Hatfield
okay so could you say kind of hand on heart yeah as of this day i'm going to follow the pagan faith or was it kind of a blend in you know from like weeks and months kind of thing
00:04:04
Jamie
but Yeah.
00:04:11
Jamie
It's definitely a blend. know, like I said, I have ah a Christian background and being a philosophy major, I actually did study religion and Christianity.
00:04:21
Jamie
Quite a bit. And, you know, there are a lot of women in the Bible that don't really get spoken about as much as some of the main narratives.
00:04:25
Lee Hatfield
I was returning.
00:04:31
Jamie
So I think for me, that was kind of the bridge. You know, I started studying like Mary, the mother of Jesus and Mary Magdalene and some of the other figures. And that just sort of bridged into these ancient goddesses.
00:04:44
Lee Hatfield
Perfect. So with it being, I'm going to be a little bit naive here. Do you, does your group call it, thanks, does your group kind of call itself ah coven or just a pagan group?
00:04:51
Jamie
Great.
00:04:53
Jamie
who Yeah.
00:04:59
Lee Hatfield
Is is there a correct title for it?
00:05:01
Jamie
oh ah ah Yeah, again, it just kind of varies. I used to belong to an organization called the Sisterhood of Avalon. That was the first pagan group that I belonged to. And I ah ah worked with that organization for about 15 years.
00:05:15
Jamie
And in that group, there was kind of like an overall sort of
00:05:18
Lee Hatfield
reason i
00:05:19
Jamie
overarching like community standards and kind of community beliefs that we all sort of agreed to and and united us.
00:05:23
Lee Hatfield
books of searching simple
00:05:26
Jamie
But locally, on a local level, we had what you we called it hearth circles.
00:05:30
Lee Hatfield
And it was a a name that kept coming up as well.
00:05:31
Jamie
So basically, like you know and it would be what some people would call a coven. We got together and we did like full moon rituals and we did you know we studied and tried to improve our magical skills and do all of those things.
00:05:43
Jamie
Now, ah Now, I don't actually belong to a specific organization. I'm pretty much a solo practitioner when it comes to a lot of things, although I do have a collaborative teaching project with my really good friend Murphy, and it's called Way of the Weaver. And we teach magical technologies and ritual skills and things like that in sort of a open source environment. So we teach you the skills, and then you can take it and do whatever you like to do in your personal practice or form your own communities.
00:06:14
Jamie
And, you know, yeah, we don't really call ourselves a coven in that way either. We we basically call ourselves weavers, and you know, because we're sort of weaving those strands of
Daily Pagan Practices and Misconceptions
00:06:23
Jamie
magic and community and learning.
00:06:23
Lee Hatfield
Right, right. right
00:06:26
Jamie
So, you know, there's lots of different things. Within paganism, I think people like to sort of play around with terminology because there's room for that.
00:06:28
Lee Hatfield
like
00:06:35
Lee Hatfield
Yeah, and one thing that I could say, like said the beginning, yeah I'm very naive with regard to paganism, but if somebody said to me, yeah oh I'm a pagan, then you start going down the road the route of like, okay, yeah is it like a Druid festival?
00:06:52
Lee Hatfield
yeah Are you dancing around a cauldron late at night? yeah Because you don't know, you're just going to get these random thoughts in your head. So what would be a I'm going to say a typical day in the life of a pagan.
00:07:05
Lee Hatfield
So like with regard to your practices.
00:07:09
Jamie
Yeah. Oh, that's a great question. And I think also people kind of maybe rely but on what they see in film and media. Right. So, you know, there certainly, there certainly is like Druid festivals and things like that. Myself, I'm not a Druid. I'm,
00:07:24
Jamie
But, you know, and and there might even be dancing around cauldrons, right?
00:07:24
Lee Hatfield
and one
00:07:28
Jamie
But, which would sound like fun to me.
00:07:28
Lee Hatfield
yes
00:07:31
Jamie
But as far as like a typical day, what this means for me is, you know, I, is a big part of me, like paganism and magic for me go together.
00:07:31
Lee Hatfield
yeah
00:07:41
Jamie
So, you know, my my witchcraft and magic practice is part of everything I do. And for me, it looks like Waking up in the morning, when I go downstairs to get my coffee, i pass our house altar, which is dedicated to the Greek god Hades.
00:07:57
Jamie
And I sort of give him a nod. I might just give him a little kiss or a little moment there to recognize him every morning. you know I get dressed. And part of what I'm doing is I use like a special oil that I've blended for the properties of the the herbs inside of it.
00:08:12
Jamie
And you know i'll I'll do some sigil magic on my wrists for like protection and to go about my day.
00:08:17
Lee Hatfield
now
00:08:19
Jamie
You know, and it also just, you know, a big part of most forms of paganism is trying to be in tune with the natural world. So I always try to make sure I step outside.
00:08:29
Jamie
i try to make, you know, take notice of what's blooming now, what's happening outside, what's going on, you know, and just sort of being in tune with that. the evening, one of the things I do at the liminal time of day, so like sunset, twilight, I will go outside and either read or so speak a short invocation to Hades and I'll stomp the ground three times because that's ah ah an ancient tradition of how you get the attention of underworld gods, you stomp.
00:09:02
Jamie
And I mean, that's very, it's a very simple thing, right? That's what an average day would be like.
00:09:06
Lee Hatfield
Right. And you mentioned yeah about being a witch and you mentioned about being magic. In this day and age, you mentioned those two words and people are automatically going to go to Harry Potter because that's that's the thing now.
00:09:19
Jamie
like
00:09:21
Lee Hatfield
So when you refer to to magic, I'm only saying Harry Potter because my wife's a really big fan, but but when when you refer to to magic and and being a witch,
00:09:27
Jamie
and
00:09:33
Lee Hatfield
What does that mean to somebody like myself that doesn't know and doesn't understand these practices?
00:09:39
Jamie
Right. So oh magic, to me to me, it almost like once you learn to be attuned to it,
00:09:50
Jamie
it almost feels like another force that's active in the in the universe, somewhat somewhat like gravity, right? And if you're not really attuned to it and you didn't really study it, you wouldn't know it's there. It's just it' just acting in the background. And I think we live in, it's an animistic viewpoint. We live in a reactive, reflexive, constant exchange with everything around us.
00:10:15
Jamie
And when you can pay attention and tap in that's the magic, right?
00:10:17
Lee Hatfield
or picking which someone identifies as a witch.
00:10:20
Jamie
There's a really famous quote that magic is the ability to change consciousness at will. So there's a lot of intention setting. There's a lot of, you know, mindfulness practices that go into it and just learning to work with energy and to get more in tune with what's happening around.
00:10:40
Jamie
I also think Harry Potter is wonderful. Read all the books, you know, movies, done all things. But I would say, honestly, if you're looking like if you want to know, like what magic actually looks like in a visual sense, Doctor Strange is a better interpretation.
00:10:57
Lee Hatfield
Oh, gotcha.
00:10:58
Jamie
Because, you know, you know, they're like spinning the sigils and they're like spinning these sort of energetic portals to like do what they want. And, you know, a lot of it, ah ah a lot of magic is is very much unseen. It's working with energies.
00:11:12
Jamie
And, you know, learning the properties of plants so that you can employ those as allies in your work. You know, so it's, yeah, I mean, I feel like that's not, it's not enough to describe it, but it's one of those subtle things that's very hard to put into words.
00:11:30
Jamie
And, yeah. And, you know, and go ahead.
00:11:33
Lee Hatfield
and god so yeah So I ask these kind of questions simply because, yeah, with my group being ah ah paranormal investigators, when when you go, oh, yeah, I'm a paranormal investigator, and people go,
00:11:49
Lee Hatfield
Like, I'm sorry, you what? You do what? And this slide i think it's I think you probably get the same kind of reaction when you go, oh yeah, yeah, I'm into paganism or I'm a witch, that kind of thing.
00:11:53
Jamie
Yeah.
00:12:00
Lee Hatfield
And you you kind of get the same response.
00:12:00
Jamie
Yeah. Yeah.
00:12:02
Lee Hatfield
People just look sideways at you and think, like, is this person weird?
00:12:04
Jamie
yeah i
00:12:07
Jamie
Well, I think a lot of people when they hear paganism, kind of like you said, is this like a Druid thing? i mean, I think your, their minds immediately go to like people that are LARPing. Right. But, you know, I'm not LARPing.
00:12:07
Lee Hatfield
yeah
00:12:22
Jamie
i actually, i usually just wear normal clothes to do everything I do. i And, you know, my my gods are as real to me as, you know, someone would feel like the Christian god is, right?
00:12:31
Lee Hatfield
she
00:12:36
Jamie
Or, you know, any of the Abrahamic religions or the Buddha or anybody else.
00:12:36
Lee Hatfield
about my contest.
00:12:40
Jamie
My gods feel very real in that way. And, you know, Witchcraft, it's interesting. you know Over my life, I have gone back and forth about identifying with that term because it's you know it has such like heavy historical context to it.
00:12:59
Jamie
And a lot of times people don't understand and they they seem they they seem to feel like there's something malicious about it. There's some ill intent. And By and large, that is not the case. I mean, I can't speak for all humans, of course, but know it's more of like what I told you is it's a more animistic viewpoint of the world and the fact that if we put our intentions out there, the world does respond.
00:13:26
Lee Hatfield
And this is a term that I've i've heard before, but um'm I would probably class you as a a white witch compared to a dark witch. Would that be correct?
00:13:37
Lee Hatfield
Because like white...
00:13:37
Jamie
No, I would say I'm a, I would say I'm gray for sure.
00:13:44
Lee Hatfield
Yeah, because I mean...
00:13:44
Jamie
Because, you know, because there's, there's not, I don't really, I don't really think there's a binary like that.
00:13:46
Lee Hatfield
Go on, sorry.
00:13:52
Lee Hatfield
Okay, okay, okay.
00:13:53
Jamie
Right. There's, there's not, you know, you know what I mean? Like we're, we're all shades of we say for the most part. Yeah. Yeah.
00:14:01
Lee Hatfield
So, so, oh, come
00:14:02
Jamie
And, you know, there are people that there are people that have a very, so I mean, I have a strict ethical code. I wrote it for myself. That's like one of the things we teach in Way of the Weaver is to write, you know, because there's really not a scripture for how to do this stuff.
00:14:15
Jamie
So, you know, we teach people to write their own code of honor. And so I live by my ethical code. And, you know, there are a lot of people in the world that think that acts that could potentially be seen as manipulative, such as I'll just, you know, like the worst one, like cursing someone.
00:14:32
Jamie
there are people that, you know, that that is very much off the table. Like they they will not dabble in that whatsoever. And, you know, then there are others that that don't see any problems with that.
00:14:44
Jamie
And it's actually part of their practice, right?
00:14:46
Jamie
So for example, where I live in the Southern United States, there is a really big hoodoo and root worker tradition.
00:14:46
Lee Hatfield
like
00:14:50
Lee Hatfield
course pop
00:14:54
Jamie
And a lot of those things have to do with cursing magics, protection magics, things that people might look at it and be like, ah is that morally ethical?
00:15:04
Jamie
But when you think about it, those types of magics developed in communities that were so marginalized, they had no other recourse. They were not supported in a cultural context, a social context. The judicial judicial system was often against them.
00:15:21
Jamie
So that's how those things develop. So
00:15:23
Lee Hatfield
okay
00:15:23
Jamie
you know, that's why I say it's kind of gray, you know, you
Pagan Traditions and Ethical Codes
00:15:25
Jamie
have to kind of, you have to lift the lid and peer a little further into what's going on.
00:15:26
Lee Hatfield
yeah
00:15:31
Lee Hatfield
yeah so being a ah ah stereotypical christian we have our specific traditions easter christmas etc are there any uh specific traditions within paganism
00:15:47
Jamie
yeah, yeah, absolutely. know, What people people often refer to that as the wheel of the year. And there are certain time points on the wheel of the year that really have to do with astrological events for the most part.
00:16:00
Jamie
know, you've got like the summer solstice and the winter solstice. You've got the vernal equinox and the autumnal equinox. Those are all really big times where most of us that work with magic feel like perhaps the veil is a little bit thinner between seen and unseen
00:16:15
Lee Hatfield
Just. But it should be
00:16:17
Jamie
And we can maybe tap into that current of magic a bit easier. May Day is another big one for a lot of folks. Samhain, or what most people would call Halloween, or you know All Saints Day, All Souls Day, that time period.
00:16:32
Jamie
All of those, they have a lot of power. And a lot of pagans will honor and recognize those, as well as you know I told you like some folks do try to do like a reconstructionist viewpoint.
00:16:39
Lee Hatfield
but it should be doing everything Okay.
00:16:44
Jamie
And so they will research ancient Roman festivals or ancient Greek festivals or things like that.
00:16:46
Lee Hatfield
report of them
00:16:49
Jamie
And they'll celebrate those days as well.
00:16:53
Lee Hatfield
Would you say that there's any, what's the word, misconceptions? So I've kind of said, look, I'm naive. I want to learn about paganism.
00:17:02
Jamie
and
00:17:03
Lee Hatfield
Please tell me about it. But do you, is it so like a, know, do some people kind of point at you with misconceptions to go, oh, you're going to do this, you're going to do that? And if so, can you name some that you've not already mentioned?
00:17:18
Jamie
Yeah, I think, I think, you know, for me, and again, like, keep in mind, i i was a Christian for many, many years. I mean, I was baptized in the church, you know, i that's that's my background. i have great respect for all the world religions.
00:17:33
Jamie
I'm just lucky enough to found to find something that is really meaningful for me, you know. I think that there is a common misconception that, you all pagans worship the devil, all witches are, you know, consorting with Satan, but like sort of like the, like the, the witch panic of like the late eighties and early nineties really hasn't faded. That's still kind of around sometimes.
00:17:58
Jamie
And, you know, certainly myself, like my patron deity being Hades, I get that a lot. And I think that, you know, as far as misconceptions go, that's probably one of the big ones. And then we also talked about like, well, what do you do? Because there's no scripture, there's no rules. Like, how do you have ethics?
00:18:18
Jamie
And, you know, I think, you know, that that kind of works in there too. A lot of, like most vegans I know have an ethical code that they operate.
00:18:26
Lee Hatfield
Yeah.
00:18:27
Jamie
They just have determined it for themselves.
00:18:27
Lee Hatfield
and Right, right. And it's weird, like, but yeah, I'm from England originally, and we've got some yeah pretty dark history, and we have a similar kind of history to what was happening in Salem in the sixteen hundreds
00:18:37
Jamie
Right,
00:18:41
Jamie
right, right. Mm-hmm.
00:18:43
Lee Hatfield
And, know, let's face it, in this day and age, if if the if they had the same principles, it would be okay if you can if you can float, yeah you know, you're a witch and all and all this kind of stuff.
00:18:56
Lee Hatfield
And it's like, yeah, yeah.
00:18:58
Jamie
ah right right
00:18:59
Lee Hatfield
And it's like, yeah, how how times have changed.
00:18:59
Jamie
very
00:19:02
Lee Hatfield
So if you could change one thing for paganism so that people understood it more, what would that be?
Inclusion and Misconceptions in Public Ceremonies
00:19:13
Jamie
I think just more inclusion, especially in the United States, majority of the the people that live here, you know, prescribed to some form of Christianity. That's, you know, the dominant religion here, you know, followed by, you know, jewish the the other Abrahamic religions too, you know, Muslims, Jewish people.
00:19:32
Jamie
I think it would be beneficial to not only for pagans like myself, but for also for the indigenous stewards of this land that were here before America was colonized to recognize more belief systems and sort of try to work that in to ceremony.
00:19:45
Lee Hatfield
course just smith the day
00:19:54
Jamie
For example, if somebody is you know opening a new building, there might be a prayer that's offered. you know Can we include multiple types of prayer so that it you know you if you don't if you've never heard heard anything, if you've never seen it in action,
00:20:09
Jamie
it feels unapproachable and scary, but if it just, if you normalize it, then it's not so scary, right? right
00:20:17
Lee Hatfield
yes
00:20:17
Jamie
So I think inclusion is probably the the big one that that I would say.
00:20:23
Lee Hatfield
Okay. So the reason why i've actually got you here, you wrote an article for Haunted Magazine, which I think is one of the best magazines out there.
00:20:31
Jamie
Yes.
00:20:34
Lee Hatfield
But... most A lot of it's in England, so I'm biased. But you wrote an article, How to Clear a Ward and Protect Spaces Like a Witch.
00:20:44
Jamie
Sure.
00:20:44
Lee Hatfield
So if we can go through some of the points that you mentioned, and then you can kind of explain.
00:20:44
Jamie
Yeah.
00:20:50
Lee Hatfield
so So you mentioned fumigation. I hope I say this right, lustration and sound and movement. movement So can you explain how you come to that to that for me, please?
00:21:03
Jamie
Yeah, absolutely.
Space Clearing Techniques
00:21:04
Jamie
So again, you're working with those subtle energies. So this is to, if you if a space is off or you so or you suspect that there are some entities or spirits that are hanging around that maybe aren't welcome, this is a way to kind of clear that space for a reset.
00:21:22
Jamie
So fumigation is basically sacred smoke. It's been called a lot of different things. And I will like... get on my soapbox, because I do this every time, please don't call it smudging.
00:21:35
Lee Hatfield
Okay, great.
00:21:35
Lee Hatfield
think the saying has to call it the same, it should be,
00:21:35
Jamie
Smudging is a very specific practice among certain indigenous people.
00:21:41
Jamie
And if they choose to teach you, that's wonderful. But if you've not learned from an indigenous elder, please don't call it smudging. So I'll get off my soapbox.
00:21:50
Lee Hatfield
okay like
00:21:50
Jamie
But it doesn't mean that we can't do it. I mean, people have used smoke to cleanse for millennia, probably, you know, as long as we've had fire.
00:21:56
Lee Hatfield
the same has to call
00:21:58
Jamie
When I do it, I like to use certain herbs that I know work really well for this.
00:22:00
Lee Hatfield
it should be
00:22:04
Jamie
And it honestly, it kind of depends on what's happening to whether it's a situation where someone just feels stagnant energy in the home, like, you know it just kind of stuck.
00:22:04
Lee Hatfield
I don't know what I mean, save project that they approved it should be the exact same as the save of the project before they approved it.
00:22:13
Jamie
Or if it's a situation where someone's scared, I would use different herbs for that, right? I'll pick out kind of the ally that suits that
00:22:19
Lee Hatfield
They're the same thing, it's just you doing it in bulk.
00:22:20
Jamie
Basically, you just, you know, you want to have like a fire safe device that you could hold in your hand.
00:22:22
Lee Hatfield
I know it has to be different between you. I've never said no crunches.
00:22:26
Jamie
You know, like is where that cauldron comes in, like a small metal cauldron, you know, or something like that, that is, you know, going to be, you know, fireproof you can kind of carry from room to room and basically just waft the smoke, just fumigate the smoke with, you know, and speak the intention of,
00:22:42
Jamie
you know, as I move, as I, as the smoke floats through the room, the room is clear, the room is clear and just kind of, you know, that's fumigation. Very simple. Lustration is, is almost the same only with water.
00:22:55
Lee Hatfield
Complete opposites.
00:22:56
Jamie
So you can, yeah, yeah, yeah. But it's the same idea and really kind of the same protocol as well. Right. So I prepare herbal waters, but you can certainly just do it with a little bit of spring water or even with a little bit of salt water works really well.
00:23:11
Jamie
And again, you just kind of, You want to have like a little bowl and something that you can sprinkle with.
00:23:17
Jamie
A sprig of rosemary works really well for this. Rosemary is a very good space cleanser. And you just dip it in the water and you move from room to room and you're just sprinkling, you know, with that intention of clearing the room.
00:23:30
Jamie
And the other really common way to clear a space is through sound. And this one I will often use, if there is something that's very disturbing in a space.
00:23:43
Jamie
Because just kind of that the using sound, I like to make a big ruckus, like basically get pots and pans, bang them together as hard as you can. You know, if you have a multi-story environment, you want to start at the top, move to the bottom. And you want if you can, if it's safe, have the doors and windows open while you're doing this.
00:24:01
Jamie
And you just want to make as loud a ruckus as you can and just, you know, kind of yell like, you're not welcome here. You're not welcome here. And, you know, just bang, bang, bang and get everything closets, you know, cabinets, get ah ah get everything you have and just, you know, get it all out of there.
00:24:17
Jamie
And then using sound, too, is a really nice reset. So you could combo these techniques. Right. So say you want to fumigate with a little bit of rosemary or something. And so you waft your smoke around.
00:24:28
Jamie
And then, you know, you definitely want to kind of, you know, you're clearing something out, you're creating a vacuum. So you want to make sure that you're, you know, setting it back properly. And there's not just a vacuum there for more stuff to come in. Right.
00:24:40
Jamie
So you might use like, that's where sound can, you can use it in a smaller way, like a small bell or a small chime, you know, you kind of like walk through, like after you've cleansed it, you're sort of consecrating it for,
00:24:52
Jamie
you know, the people that are living there or the activities that go on there to give them a fresh start. I hope that makes sense.
00:24:59
Lee Hatfield
Yeah, it is. And for the sound of movement, is that the same? like i've I've seen a couple of TV shows where they've they've got like a metal bowl and they're going around the edge of the bowl. Is that the same kind of principle?
00:25:12
Jamie
Yeah, a singing bowl. Yeah. Yeah.
00:25:14
Lee Hatfield
Yeah. Okay.
00:25:15
Jamie
yeah
00:25:16
Lee Hatfield
So that wasn't the only part of this particular article. You talk about the warding of space as well. So this has got two points to it.
00:25:28
Lee Hatfield
I'm probably going to say this completely wrong, but I'm sure you'll correct me. Protective cygills, sigils, and then your magical bows barriers.
00:25:35
Jamie
Sigils. Sigils. Yeah.
00:25:39
Lee Hatfield
So if you can explain about those two for me, please.
00:25:41
Jamie
Yeah. So again, because we were talking like we just spoke about clearing, right? And so you don't want to create a vacuum once you've got things cleared out. You want to protect the space.
00:25:52
Jamie
Sigils are, you know, they are basically little symbols that represent things and they come in many different forms. you would be familiar with when the cross is like an early sigil of protection.
00:26:05
Jamie
either the you know Either the cross as we know it in Christianity or in X has also been used for protection for millennia. Sigils, you can use runes like Norse runes, you can use those as sigils.
00:26:13
Lee Hatfield
Yeah. Yeah.
00:26:18
Jamie
Many pagans are very fond of using the pentagram, the five-pointed star, as a protective sigil.
00:26:20
Lee Hatfield
don't homeless yeah
00:26:25
Jamie
So what those are, they they're basically acting on the subtle plane as like, if it's almost as if you wrote a sign that says, this home is protected, do not enter.
00:26:30
Lee Hatfield
oh
00:26:38
Jamie
Only you're doing it an energetic way. So basically, you you know to do, for example, what I do at my own home is I move around each window and door in my home.
00:26:49
Jamie
And I like to use water and draw a sigil. I usually use the pentagram on each of those spaces.
00:26:54
Lee Hatfield
that naked you
00:26:56
Jamie
And so I'm basically putting that do not enter sign for every entrance in my house. And you can, I mean, again, this is not something that, you know, if, you know,
00:27:05
Lee Hatfield
here
00:27:07
Jamie
For example, like if you if you are a Christian and you want to use this, use the cross and speak a prayer and do it at all your windows, right?
00:27:08
Lee Hatfield
why don we hair stick
00:27:15
Jamie
It will still work in the same way. It's all about the intention and and having having done it and like laid it down. So.
00:27:24
Lee Hatfield
And I've seen a again on TV and it's in colour, so it must be real. when I've seen examples of where they've put, I'm assuming it's a signal at each corner of the house on the outside.
00:27:41
Lee Hatfield
Is that the same same kind of thing for warding your space?
00:27:43
Jamie
Yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah, exactly. The same concept of warding a space. i like I have like a physical way of warding my space that I really like.
00:27:53
Jamie
I mentioned hoodoo, the magic of the South. in hoodoo, one of the things that you protect your house with are railroad spikes, like old iron railroad spikes.
00:28:03
Lee Hatfield
Yeah, that's what I saw.
00:28:05
Jamie
And so in each corner of my house, I've driven a railroad spike into the ground.
00:28:07
Lee Hatfield
Yeah.
00:28:10
Jamie
Another old, and again, like, you know, coming from England, you know that the iron is supposed to protect you against ferries too.
00:28:17
Lee Hatfield
yeah
00:28:18
Jamie
I don't know if you want to, if you want ferries in your garden, you may not want to use the iron railroad spikes, but know, another, like from Appalachia, that region of the United States, an old method for warding a space is to take nine needles, like needles or straight pins that you'd use for sewing and to place them almost like a little barrier across your driveway.
00:28:39
Jamie
so that only the people you want to come in can come in. So yeah, there's like physical ways of warding.
00:28:44
Lee Hatfield
Yeah, it's a shame that i've mean that I'm interviewing you now because a few weekends ago i was actually talking to somebody about fairies so like but could have
Herbs and Warding Techniques
00:28:52
Lee Hatfield
crossed over. and now i yeah Okay, so the five natural allies for paranormal protection.
00:29:02
Lee Hatfield
If you could talk about each one of those for me, please.
00:29:05
Jamie
Well, you have to remind me because I don't have the article in front of me right now.
00:29:09
Lee Hatfield
say oh just Jamie, I just thought it would be off the top of your head. so
00:29:14
Jamie
Well, I actually work with a lot of herbs. And so I, for the article, I picked like five that are, you know, pretty easy for people to find if they want to use them and that are pretty accessible.
00:29:25
Lee Hatfield
Okay.
00:29:26
Jamie
So you'll have to remind me.
00:29:27
Lee Hatfield
oh Okay. Just this once, okay? I'm not going remind you about anything else. Okay. So the first one is mugwort.
00:29:37
Jamie
Yeah. Mugwort is fantastic. It is such a go-to and it is been, again, used for many, many years to protect spaces and also to protect, like animals, like cows and horses and things like that.
00:29:42
Lee Hatfield
will be
00:29:47
Lee Hatfield
heard
00:29:52
Lee Hatfield
There you
00:29:53
Jamie
mugwort is, it's very, uh, easy to find it burns. It has like kind of a a ah similar effect as, as sage as like white sage.
00:30:04
Jamie
Yeah, and it's ah ah it's a very good, it's been mentioned in, there's an old Norse poem about the magical herbs of protection and mugwort is one of those that's listed in it.
00:30:16
Jamie
So, and I think, you know, kind of like anything else, like if something has been used for a particular purpose for a very long time, that just adds to its power. You're just sort of like, you keep like honing it, like, you know, like you would like a sharp implement, like the usage just kind of continues and adds to what it can do.
00:30:37
Jamie
Yeah. So mugwort's a big one.
00:30:38
Lee Hatfield
okay OK, so the next few I've actually heard of. So yeah, great. Rosemary is the next one on the list.
00:30:46
Jamie
Yeah, rosemary is great. It's great for kind of clearing out energies and spirits in a more gentler, and gentler way. I think mugwort is a little it's a little harsher and rosemary is a little softer.
00:30:58
Jamie
It's also great where if you just want to clear your personal energy, you know, like just your, you know, if you want to incorporate, you know sort of like a rosemary scent or a rosemary like body wash or something like that, it's kind of great for your person.
00:31:10
Jamie
And it's also very protective against nightmares, which can be really, really good. so you yeah want to put a sprig of rosemary above your bed, or you can even put it under your bed. it it will help with that.
00:31:22
Lee Hatfield
Interesting. Next time I have a ah nightmare, I'll try rosemary.
00:31:25
Jamie
Yeah.
00:31:26
Lee Hatfield
okay Okay, so Jupiter is is the next one. Not the planet.
00:31:31
Jamie
Oh, juniper.
00:31:31
Lee Hatfield
the
00:31:32
Jamie
Yeah, juniper.
00:31:32
Lee Hatfield
Yeah.
00:31:33
Jamie
Yeah.
00:31:34
Lee Hatfield
Well, okay.
00:31:34
Jamie
Juniper is that.
00:31:35
Lee Hatfield
Typo. Typo. Definitely a typo because it says Jupiter.
00:31:37
Jamie
That's okay. No, juniper. Yeah. Yeah, I have juniper bushes in my yard. Juniper is some, again, just kind of like mugwort, again, coming from sort of the the the the area of the world that my ancestors came from, which is England, Scotland, Wales.
00:31:53
Jamie
There was often a, you know, people would burn juniper branches certain points in the year. They would drive their cattle between them to sort of cleanse and protect their cattle.
00:32:03
Jamie
They would burn juniper in the home to sort of fumigate the whole home. It's just, also it smells are really good when it's burning. And you know if you've noticed something about all of these things like mugwort and especially juniper and rosemary, they have sort of a tang, like an astringent sort of quality to the smell.
00:32:25
Jamie
And that's on purpose, right? That's something that will sort of shake up energy and and move it along. It's not like you're burning rose petals, right?
00:32:35
Lee Hatfield
Yeah, yeah, for sure.
00:32:36
Jamie
You know, that's like a more welcoming sort of thing. You want that little tang, you want you want to cleanse, you know?
00:32:43
Lee Hatfield
OK, and number four on the list, another one I've heard of, yay for me, is BlackBerry.
00:32:50
Jamie
Blackberry. Yeah. I have blackberry brambles that grow all around my house. So if you think about it, blackberry is very thorny. And so using blackberry, i use that more as a protective type of herb because it can, you know, literally provide a barrier around somewhere. Right.
00:33:14
Jamie
So if I were using this on home, I mean, I have wild blackberry in my yard, which I let grow because it's great, great protection. But if I were using this on someone's home, I would probably make like a tea of blackberry.
00:33:22
Lee Hatfield
right
00:33:28
Jamie
And we would do sort of that that method I taught you about the sigils. We would kind of use that blackberry tea in the same manner because you're not only putting a protective sign there, you're doubling up because you're using the herb too.
00:33:40
Jamie
And if you just think about it, I mean, blackberries are delicious, but how many of us have like ended up with scratches you know all over it Yeah, it's it's really something that really, you know, it's like, don't come in here.
00:33:46
Lee Hatfield
Oh, 100%. Oh, cool.
00:33:53
Jamie
don't It's almost like a barbed fence, right?
00:33:56
Lee Hatfield
ah cool Okay. And the last one, it's Sam4.
00:34:01
Jamie
Camphor, yeah.
00:34:03
Lee Hatfield
Okay. Okay.
00:34:03
Jamie
Camphor is a camp the heavy artillery.
00:34:04
Lee Hatfield
come
00:34:07
Jamie
This is for for um energies or spirits that are very stubborn and really won't leave or they're getting a little ugly and aggressive with you. Camphor, I don't know if you've ever smelled Vicks VapoRub, like this the the salve that you rub on your chest.
00:34:22
Lee Hatfield
Oh, yes. Yeah. Yeah.
00:34:25
Jamie
That's camphor, like that smell.
00:34:26
Lee Hatfield
well
00:34:27
Jamie
And you know what that does to your sinuses, right? Like it opens them up, totally like clears them out. Camphor actually comes in little white blocks. And if you're going to use it, i would say, don't start with camphor. Okay.
00:34:40
Jamie
like Start with rosemary, work your way up to camphor. Okay. Like, you know, you just, you know, camphor is very smelly and you only want to, you want to be very careful about burning it because it can really irritate like the sinuses and the lungs if you're not careful.
00:34:54
Jamie
but yeah, that's for, that's a heavy hitter for when you've got a really serious situation. And again, going back to the hoodoo tradition, hoodoo and root work is very practical.
00:35:04
Jamie
And so I, um, practitioners that will actually just take the Vicks VapoRub and like run it, run their finger in it and run their finger along door frames for protection.
00:35:15
Jamie
Yeah. Which is, I think quite brilliant actually.
00:35:16
Lee Hatfield
Oh, wow, that's crazy.
00:35:18
Jamie
Yeah.
00:35:18
Lee Hatfield
Yeah, yeah. so up I'm going to go out and get some tonight. So I'm like, go for it.
00:35:23
Jamie
Yeah, you should. Yeah.
00:35:24
Lee Hatfield
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:35:24
Jamie
I'm like, that's brilliant. You know, use what you have around people. I think people imagine witches having these like beautiful cabinets full of like jars and things like that. You know, you can get rosemary at the grocery store.
00:35:36
Lee Hatfield
Yeah.
00:35:37
Jamie
You know, it's it's not there. There's a certain aesthetic that you see on Instagram or TikTok. But some of us have that aesthetic, but some of us are very practical.
00:35:45
Lee Hatfield
the next time i go next time i go to the store and see someone buying Rosemary, it's like, are you an alchemist?
00:35:52
Jamie
What are they?
00:35:53
Lee Hatfield
ah ah you like Yeah.
00:35:54
Jamie
Yeah.
00:35:55
Jamie
You might just be making it. You might be making roast chicken. You might be fumigating a home. We we don't know.
00:35:55
Lee Hatfield
So...
00:35:59
Lee Hatfield
yeah Yeah. yeah So would you actually... call yourself
Current Projects and Future Plans
00:36:05
Lee Hatfield
an alchemist? Because you've mentioned about all these different like herbs and what to do with them and how to protect you.
00:36:11
Lee Hatfield
But alchemy kind of comes into that that that, under that umbrella as well. So would you actually call yourself an alchemist?
00:36:20
Jamie
i I think that there are certain parts of alchemy that I use for sure. Most of the time I call myself an esoteric herbalist because I study plants so much, but I'm using them in the esoteric or the magical manner.
00:36:34
Jamie
To me, alchemy has a lot more precision. then what I do, there's a lot about like planetary hours and times of the day and particular metals.
00:36:44
Jamie
And i tend to, you you know, I tend to just kind of, like we said, be very practical about what I'm doing, especially because I'm teaching so much. Right. And when I'm teaching, you know, you don't, you want to give people like solutions that are easy for them, that they can, that they can access and that they can perform themselves.
00:37:02
Lee Hatfield
that will be most useful.
00:37:03
Jamie
And i really admire alchemists. They are incredibly smart individuals. And I was certainly, there's always a little bit of alchemy to magic, right? If you think about the old alchemists that are trying to turn lead into gold, that that's what you're doing a lot of times. You're trying to turn something that that's not a scenario you want or ah you you know a situation that's going on.
00:37:26
Jamie
into something better and you're kind of using magic to do that. And maybe you're using plant allies, maybe you're using mineral allies. oh But yeah, the and i i i don't really I don't really call myself that, but I think there's definitely elements of alchemy going on.
00:37:42
Lee Hatfield
Okay. Okay. So unfortunately, and I could talk about this all day, we haven't mentioned Harry Potter much, so we should go back there. But and I know that you've you've released some books and you've had your own documentary.
00:37:56
Lee Hatfield
So what's if you want to first first boost your books, by all means, mention what books you've you've written.
00:38:02
Jamie
there
00:38:02
Lee Hatfield
and But then I'd also like you to tell me what's next for Jamie Wagner.
00:38:07
Jamie
Okay, well, thank you so much. Actually, I'm enjoying myself too. I wish we could keep talking.
00:38:11
Lee Hatfield
Yeah. Yeah.
00:38:12
Jamie
oh So the the the book that just came out in 2024, that's Hades. I have it right here. It's Hades, Myth, Magic, and Modern Devotion.
00:38:19
Lee Hatfield
for me
00:38:21
Jamie
So if you're interested in the Greek god of the underworld, I have put a book together about sort of how I got to work with Hades and what I understand about him and his mythology.
00:38:23
Lee Hatfield
you know what we know what the issue is now anyway. So I reset this. Well, I think there's four projects available now there. Because one of them, so
00:38:32
Jamie
He's a mysterious character. you have to really turn over a lot of rocks to like find know find out more about him. And so I put all that together in the book. And also there's a lot of magic in there too. So if you're curious about cleansing,
00:38:46
Jamie
you know cleansing
00:38:46
Lee Hatfield
because one of them
00:38:48
Jamie
warding, casting a circle, making a condenser, which is basically what I talked about, sort of the herbal tea, like planning a ritual, those types of things.
00:38:48
Lee Hatfield
so
00:38:51
Lee Hatfield
they're only there right now last one that did the list but please
00:38:56
Jamie
All of that's in here, which I think is applicable for many situations, even if you're not interested in Hades.
00:38:57
Lee Hatfield
even when you have approve it should not remove the whole condition because it's still late.
00:39:02
Jamie
like Yeah.
00:39:03
Lee Hatfield
So I tried to give both situations, one that should remove it and one that shouldn't.
00:39:04
Jamie
Currently, well, I'm also part of the Feminine Macabre, which is how I got in Haunted Magazine. So the Feminine Macabre is a series of journals of the paranormal that is written by all women or non-binary individuals.
00:39:12
Lee Hatfield
Yeah,
00:39:18
Jamie
And I think they are on journal seven right now. I have an essay on scrying in journal four. But those are really great.
00:39:26
Jamie
So check those out. friend Amanda Wimmer puts those out and she is absolutely fantastic.
00:39:26
Lee Hatfield
that's pretty good.
00:39:28
Lee Hatfield
Okay. jerking
00:39:31
Jamie
And I see what is coming up next.
00:39:34
Lee Hatfield
yeah okay probably
00:39:35
Jamie
Those are the books that are out right now. What's coming up next is that I am... starting in the in August, I'm doing my River Sticks book club again. like The one we have right now is just wrapping up. I basically take people chapter by chapter through the book and we do all the exercises together and we have group discussions and I even throw in some other stuff that didn't quite make it into the book but and we have a lot of fun. so
00:40:00
Lee Hatfield
Right.
00:40:00
Jamie
That group is starting up again on August 6th and runs through early December and there are lots of details about it on my website. That's how you can find out all the info and With Way of the Weaver, our classes are always ongoing. There's always something going on. Right now, ah ah see, we're in May.
00:40:17
Jamie
We have a, we have a, what we call Weaver Camp in June. I don't know when this episode will post.
00:40:21
Lee Hatfield
there could be lots at times.
00:40:23
Jamie
It might be over by then, but it's basically a four day retreat for, for adults. And we do a lot of magic and ritual at that.
00:40:29
Lee Hatfield
end of the report
00:40:30
Jamie
And we also have what we call spider threads, which is our longer program over that takes place over about five months. And we teach you sort of in depth and in person.
00:40:41
Jamie
how to, how do basically, how to start your magical practice and how to deepen that. And some, some you know, intermediate to advanced skills that you don't find a lot of other places. And as far as writing goes, right now I'm writing kind of sequel to Hades, but it's kind of a standalone book.
00:40:52
Lee Hatfield
I
00:40:57
Jamie
The working title is called One Foot in the Underworld, and it expands out and talks a lot more about all of the other gods, demigods, characters that live in the underworld, and also with the magical practices around the the threshold between living and dying and working with that liminal space.
00:41:18
Jamie
So...
00:41:19
Lee Hatfield
i I'm going to be looking at the website for the rest of the night now going, oh, yeah, I need to order that book. I need to do this. And I need to do Jamie.
00:41:27
Jamie
Yeah, yeah, I'm really excited. Yeah, I'm really excited.
00:41:29
Lee Hatfield
It's.
00:41:29
Jamie
And then like way, way down the road, I'm also, I've started working on an underworld tarot deck. It's based on the Rider Waite Smith tarot. So it's 78 card deck, but it's all the Greek underworld. But that is, i mean, it takes a while for an artist to make 78 cards.
00:41:46
Lee Hatfield
good thing So when it work
00:41:47
Jamie
So yeah, so that's a little further down the road.
00:41:51
Lee Hatfield
when do you hope that will be finished by optimistically?
00:41:53
Jamie
Oh, gosh. Optimistically. Well, the the next book, One Foot in the Underworld, is probably going to be coming out next year in 2026.
00:42:01
Lee Hatfield
myself down
00:42:02
Jamie
I think that the tarot deck will be either in 2027 or very early 2028.
00:42:03
Lee Hatfield
personally start to work on
00:42:08
Jamie
It kind of depends on my publisher's schedule.
00:42:09
Lee Hatfield
here mostly And the artist, obviously, because he's like, see, all these little cards that he's got to draw.
00:42:13
Jamie
Yeah. Yeah.
00:42:17
Jamie
Yep, exactly.
00:42:18
Lee Hatfield
Jamie.
Conclusion and Invitation for Future Discussions
00:42:18
Jamie
Exactly.
00:42:19
Jamie
It's a lot of work.
00:42:19
Lee Hatfield
it
00:42:19
Lee Hatfield
Yeah. Jamie, it's been an absolute pleasure. I've learned so much. I want to learn more. so I'm definitely going to be going out and buying your book and be having a good read.
00:42:30
Jamie
Oh, yay.
00:42:31
Lee Hatfield
Yay, you've got another subscriber.
00:42:33
Jamie
Yeah. Well, you know, if you buy one from my website, I'll sign it for you and I'll send you some stickers and everything.
00:42:34
Lee Hatfield
But...
00:42:38
Jamie
So you get a nice little care package from the underworld in the mail.
00:42:43
Lee Hatfield
i How could I refuse that? Come on, let's face it. Yeah, how could I?
00:42:47
Jamie
Yeah.
00:42:48
Lee Hatfield
that I'll be looking at definitely definitely looking at that this week, definitely. Okay, Jamie, it's been an absolute pleasure.
00:42:52
Jamie
Yeah.
00:42:54
Lee Hatfield
I could talk to you all night. You've been absolutely fascinating. I thank you for your time. And please come back.
00:42:59
Jamie
so
00:43:00
Lee Hatfield
If you ever want to have another chat about something else, then we can definitely do that. So I appreciate it. Thank you very much.
00:43:07
Jamie
I would love to, lee It was really a pleasure. Thank you.
00:43:11
Lee Hatfield
ah ah Take care. Bye-bye.