Become a Creator today!Start creating today - Share your story with the world!
Start for free
00:00:00
00:00:01
S1 E34 Dr Ciarán O'Keeffe - Parapsychologist
15 Plays2 days ago
In this week’s episode and 6 months in the making, I am more than delighted to speak to Dr Ciarán O'Keeffe. Cairan is an English psychologist specialising in parapsychology and forensic psychology.
Ciarán is renowned for being a skeptic, but he tells me how he loves to hear of personal ghost stories
We both have a common love for the Borley Rectory Story, once named the most haunted place in England.
We also discuss the Enfield Poltergeist and the procedure of separating natural and supernatural phenomena.
Cairan tells me about his experience with green fog, and we discuss the importance of reviewing evidence.
We also talk about demonology, and the Anneliese Michel case, are poltergeists’ violent spirits or just clumsy ghosts
Recommended
Transcript
Intro
Introduction of Dr. Kieran O'Keefe
00:00:12
Lee Hatfield
Hello everybody and welcome to the latest episode of SIPA Paranormal Chronicles. Today I am more than delighted to have somebody that I've been following for a long long time.
00:00:24
Lee Hatfield
And don't mean that in a bad way, I mean I'm not a stalker, I mean in a good way with his work. Dr. Kieran O'Keefe who is an English psychologist specialising in parapsychology and forensic psychology.
00:00:37
Lee Hatfield
Kieran, welcome.
Effort to Feature Dr. O'Keefe
00:00:39
Dr. Ciaran O'Keeffe
Good evening, Lee, or good day, or whatever time of day it is for you, but good evening it is for me. as you can tell, it's quite dark in the background, but yes, thank you so much for having me on.
00:00:51
Lee Hatfield
Yeah, I know that I started this podcast back in February and I thought to myself, I want to get as many, and I'm going to be really modest now, as many big people as I can onto the podcast. And because i've like I know you from your first TV days, it's like, I'm going to reach out to Kieran O'Keefe and see if he responds.
00:01:16
Lee Hatfield
Now, Kieran, how long did it take?
00:01:20
Dr. Ciaran O'Keeffe
It took over a year, I think, in the end, wasn't it?
00:01:23
Lee Hatfield
see yeah i think well i think it was and I think it was a little bit short.
00:01:26
Dr. Ciaran O'Keeffe
Was it longer than that?
00:01:29
Lee Hatfield
I think it was like December, January time when I actually yeah reached out to you and I got a response on a Friday evening in June. It was like, no.
00:01:39
Dr. Ciaran O'Keeffe
Oh, that's not too bad. That's sixth that's about six months. Not too bad. My usual record is over a year. So, yes, you're doing well.
00:01:46
Lee Hatfield
Oh, I feel honored.
Early Experiences with Ghost Hunting
00:01:51
Lee Hatfield
Okay, so Kieran, you've been involved with yeah the investigating and power psychology for a long time. So can we go back to your very first experience and how you decided that you were going to like channel your career into searching the paranormal?
00:02:16
Dr. Ciaran O'Keeffe
Yeah, that's a really good question. I think there's two separate things there because you talk about a first experience. My first ever ghost hunt was about the age of six, am living in a street in and just outside of Norwich in Norfolk, kind of the east eastern area of of England.
00:02:22
Lee Hatfield
Thank you.
00:02:35
Dr. Ciaran O'Keeffe
And there was a rumour that there was a ghost in a burnt out pig farm at the bottom of our street. And a bunch of us six-year-olds got together bravely one one evening and convinced our parents to let us stay out at you know a few hours later. And we traipsed down to this burnt-out pig farm, hoping to catch a ghost, and were standing round kind of out the entrance to the pig farm, not necessarily wanting to go in.
00:03:02
Dr. Ciaran O'Keeffe
And a few of us threw stones in, thinking that we would disrupt the ghost in some way, and hit a wasp's nest. And the only thing we captured that night was a lot of wasp stings as we you know ran back to our homes crying.
00:03:16
Dr. Ciaran O'Keeffe
So that was my first experience, ghost hunting.
00:03:16
Lee Hatfield
up
00:03:20
Dr. Ciaran O'Keeffe
But the seeds of interest were there, even at that age, even though that was kind of my first ghost hunt.
00:03:21
Lee Hatfield
Thank you.
00:03:26
Dr. Ciaran O'Keeffe
I was fascinated by ghost stories at a young age. I was a voracious reader of M.R. James, H.P. Lovecraft, you know, a lot of the classics, as well as contemporary authors like James Herbert, Stephen King, Clive Barker.
00:03:42
Dr. Ciaran O'Keeffe
and And that was even... At that age, you know, like eight, nine years old, my parents were genuinely worried about my reading habits, you know, the stuff I was reading. But I was just fascinated by this.
00:03:53
Dr. Ciaran O'Keeffe
And then at the same time, Arthur C. Clarke's Mysterious World was on. kind of He had this series on English TV, and I was enthralled by that.
00:03:58
Lee Hatfield
Right.
00:04:04
Dr. Ciaran O'Keeffe
But actually, 1984 was the pivotal moment for me because that's when I saw the movie Ghostbusters.
00:04:12
Lee Hatfield
by
00:04:12
Dr. Ciaran O'Keeffe
and everything else was ah ah was it was an interest and I was fascinated by ghosts. 1984, even though that was a movie, that was me kind of
Academic Pursuits in Parapsychology
00:04:24
Dr. Ciaran O'Keeffe
hearing almost parapsychology, the word, for the first time.
00:04:25
Lee Hatfield
Thank you.
00:04:28
Dr. Ciaran O'Keeffe
And it led me on an investigation to find out more about parapsychology and find out what's going on. and even called up Columbia University which was featured in the movie, to ask them about their parapsychology unit, which of course they didn't have one.
00:04:43
Dr. Ciaran O'Keeffe
So the lady at the end of the phone wasn't too happy. But she mentioned about the Institute of Parapsychology in North Carolina, where parapsychology started ah ah about 100 years ago.
00:04:54
Dr. Ciaran O'Keeffe
And I investigated that and I asked for advice about what what I should do to be a parapsychologist.
00:04:55
Lee Hatfield
Thank you.
00:05:02
Dr. Ciaran O'Keeffe
I carried on doing ghost hunting through my teen years. And I ended up going to university in the States and doing a parapsychology thesis at the Institute of Parapsychology supervised by them.
Borley Rectory and Haunted Places
00:05:15
Dr. Ciaran O'Keeffe
and So that's kind of, you know, ah brief summary of my journey. But it also, you can see how it answers two parts to your question. What because what were the early experiences?
00:05:27
Dr. Ciaran O'Keeffe
But then what led me on this journey kind of parapsychology? So I think that hopefully that answers your question.
00:05:34
Lee Hatfield
Yeah, and it's it's interesting you mention some of your reading material because I used to be ah big fan of some of the books you've mentioned.
00:05:46
Lee Hatfield
And it's interesting because yeah you mentioned ah James Herbert, I believe, and yeah the rats and and those those kind of books absolutely fascinated me.
00:05:58
Dr. Ciaran O'Keeffe
Yeah.
00:05:58
Lee Hatfield
And I think that was kind of my first... kind of insight into stuff that was outside of the norm, if you like. But as a kid, I always used to be fascinated with Borley Rectory.
00:06:13
Lee Hatfield
So, yeah, I was born in the 60s, living in Lincolnshire. And Borley Rectory was always, know, whenever
Enfield Poltergeist and Public Fascination
00:06:22
Lee Hatfield
I ah ah saw a book on it, I'd always read up on it.
00:06:25
Lee Hatfield
And it wasn't until i I wrote a small paper for a course I was doing last year, I think it was, that I read and found out that not all of it was as true as what what is put in most books.
00:06:39
Lee Hatfield
And I was absolutely heartbroken.
00:06:40
Dr. Ciaran O'Keeffe
Yeah.
00:06:43
Lee Hatfield
Like, this this has been a place that i worshipped for as long as I can remember, and then to find out that some of the reports were fake.
00:06:43
Dr. Ciaran O'Keeffe
yeah
00:06:51
Lee Hatfield
And, like, I was gutted, absolutely gutted, with regard to that.
00:06:55
Dr. Ciaran O'Keeffe
Yeah, I know what you mean. here Here is the most haunted house in England, which is the kind of title that's given to it by many people, but also the title given to it by Harry Price, the investigator of Borley Rectory.
00:07:11
Lee Hatfield
Exactly.
00:07:11
Dr. Ciaran O'Keeffe
And so, yeah, it's huge in terms of it being on such a high pedestal to be known as the most haunted house in England. in England of course unfortunately it doesn't exist now it was you know burnt down many many decades ago but still yeah you read about the case as a young boy and often the coverage of it paints this picture of a fascinating case that has got so much phenomena happening to it and just you know yeah one of the best cases and yet yeah when you start to dig into it a lot more
00:07:23
Lee Hatfield
Yeah.
00:07:44
Dr. Ciaran O'Keeffe
And there's been a few recent publications actually over the last three to four years that have gone into it in great depth. You find out actually a lot of it eer is kind of self-publicizing on the part of Harry Price.
00:07:59
Dr. Ciaran O'Keeffe
You know, a little bit of exaggeration here and there in terms of him trying to you know make it more than it was, but also some key characters.
00:08:02
Lee Hatfield
Exactly.
00:08:08
Dr. Ciaran O'Keeffe
involved in that case or, you know, residents of the case as well who may have fabricated some of the evidence as well. So it's unfortunate.
00:08:19
Dr. Ciaran O'Keeffe
I still think you and I should not be too despondent and too upset about the case because it still is a fascinating case and if anything it almost typifies typifies a lot of the great cases that we can deal with you know that there's this huge huge mythology and kind of amazing reputation around them but some of them when you get into the other layers
00:08:28
Lee Hatfield
exactly
00:08:43
Dr. Ciaran O'Keeffe
You find a little bit of ambiguity or maybe a little bit of questionable facts that are thrown in. And I think that, yeah, I and think for that reason, Borley Rectory for me still is fascinating and still is fascinating because it kind of illustrates the frustration, if not the fascination and enthusiasm that we have for ghost hunting.
00:08:55
Lee Hatfield
yeah That's right. And I i think you can say say the same for the Enfield poltergeist as well.
00:09:10
Lee Hatfield
There's been movies about it, you know documentaries about it. And if you dig deep into that as well, there's a few doubtful experiences or occurrences that are not exactly true to the written story.
00:09:27
Dr. Ciaran O'Keeffe
Yes, but also i think what's what's interesting about the Amfield Poltergeist, there you've got a case from 1976 that was just over a year, a poltergeist case in North London.
00:09:38
Dr. Ciaran O'Keeffe
And like you said, you know we've got Conjuring 2, which was said to be based you know on that based on a true story of the Warrens' involvement. I'm sure there are Warrens, Warren fans out there in North America, no matter where you turn. um And it painted the picture that they were the key investigators in the Enfield Poltergeist case, which of course they weren't.
00:09:59
Lee Hatfield
Yeah.
00:10:01
Dr. Ciaran O'Keeffe
It was Guy Lien Playfair and Maurice Gross who were employed by the Society for Psychical Research. But regardless of that, you've got that movie, you've got a number of documentaries, like you said, some ah ah BBC dramatisation as well, various documentaries.
00:10:18
Dr. Ciaran O'Keeffe
kind of representations of it and again you're absolutely right it kind of paints that picture as here is an amazing case but when you look at some of the hidden layers it makes you start to question you know what's going on in terms of the facts but also i think there's a lot of and not necessarily created publicity around it by those involved at the time, and but there is just a lot of publicity that's been created about it because I think it captured the imagination of people.
00:10:50
Lee Hatfield
Yeah.
00:10:51
Dr. Ciaran O'Keeffe
When the internet really blew up, you had a lot more discussion about it and and footage and audio footage from it on YouTube and various other platforms and platforms. And I think that kind of had a snowball effect to create poltergeist case that was seen as the most amazing one.
Personal Ghost Hunting Experiences
00:11:12
Dr. Ciaran O'Keeffe
And yet you can you only need to look you know a little bit to find poltergeist cases that are bigger, and better and more phenomena and more witnesses, you know, and stuff that feels more evidential.
00:11:27
Dr. Ciaran O'Keeffe
You only need to look very, very briefly to find that. But for some reason, Enfield Poltergeist kind of captured the imagination, you know, and as this again, it's on that high pedestal like Borley.
00:11:34
Lee Hatfield
Yeah.
00:11:39
Lee Hatfield
And it's it's interesting because the the most latest Enfield Poltergeist TV series, a three-parter, was actually shown over here in Canada a couple of months ago.
00:11:49
Dr. Ciaran O'Keeffe
How brilliant.
00:11:51
Lee Hatfield
So it was like, oh, yeah, must put it on record and watched it. and Because, it like you say, it's an iconic story.
00:11:58
Dr. Ciaran O'Keeffe
Yeah.
00:11:58
Lee Hatfield
It's an iconic blast from the past, so to speak. And when I was in the UK, I used to work in London as a paramedic. And I was based in Barnet. And I used to go to Enfield and places around that all the time.
00:12:13
Lee Hatfield
But it wasn't until after I left that I found out about the Enfield poltergeist. So yeah, the chances of me driving down that street are quite high.
00:12:26
Dr. Ciaran O'Keeffe
yeah
00:12:26
Lee Hatfield
And it's always weird how you find out about this kind of stuff afterwards.
00:12:31
Dr. Ciaran O'Keeffe
Absolutely. Yeah, no, you're absolutely right.
00:12:33
Lee Hatfield
yeah
00:12:34
Dr. Ciaran O'Keeffe
it's it's It's m similar to can of my journey. If I look at some of the places that I stayed in and as part of my journey, there were aspects of it that I only found out later. A prime example would be, so you talked about Enfield.
00:12:52
Dr. Ciaran O'Keeffe
A prime example for me would be when I studied in America, my undergraduate degree, where I did them the parapsychology thesis, and I lived in a town called Chestertown in Maryland on the Chesapeake Bay, about 45 minutes outside of Washington, D.C.
00:13:09
Dr. Ciaran O'Keeffe
But for a significant part of that degree, I was working down at the Institute of Parapsychology in North Carolina, in Durham. Unbeknownst to me, Chestertown was where the inventor of the Ouija board lived over a hundred years ago.
00:13:25
Lee Hatfield
Oh, wow.
00:13:26
Dr. Ciaran O'Keeffe
And it was in Chestertown that he came up with the idea for the Ouija board as we know and love it today. For the first two and a half years of me living in Chester, I had no idea that that was the case.
00:13:38
Dr. Ciaran O'Keeffe
And I don't know what it is. It's just one of those things, isn't it? You don't tend to look on
Skepticism and Open-mindedness in Ghost Hunting
00:13:41
Dr. Ciaran O'Keeffe
your doorstep for weird and wonderful things that you're fascinated by.
00:13:43
Lee Hatfield
Exactly.
00:13:45
Dr. Ciaran O'Keeffe
And it was just pure luck that I found out
00:13:46
Lee Hatfield
Yeah.
00:13:48
Dr. Ciaran O'Keeffe
about two and a half years like you know but after I'd started to live in there. So yeah, yeah.
00:13:53
Dr. Ciaran O'Keeffe
Similar experience to your Enfield one.
00:13:54
Lee Hatfield
and and this yeah And it's funny, like you say that, and it's so it's kind of like a mind blown experience.
00:14:01
Lee Hatfield
It's sort of like, oh, my God, I did not know that. and you yeah And then you make make the effort to go and yeah to find out more about it and go and visit the location or whatever.
00:14:05
Dr. Ciaran O'Keeffe
Yeah.
00:14:10
Dr. Ciaran O'Keeffe
Exactly.
00:14:11
Lee Hatfield
but Yeah.
00:14:11
Dr. Ciaran O'Keeffe
Yes. I don't make that mistake now, though.
00:14:12
Lee Hatfield
yeah
00:14:14
Dr. Ciaran O'Keeffe
I made that mistake when I was in Chestertown. Now, everywhere I've been in the last 30 years, that's pretty much what I do the first month, is do a lot of research locally just to make sure I'm not missing some, you know, and lovely occurrences and some lovely cases that might be sitting right on my doorstep.
00:14:27
Lee Hatfield
Yeah.
00:14:34
Lee Hatfield
Well, it's funny you say that because a week on Tuesday, the wife and I are going on vacation and we're going to Fiji. So I've been sort like Googling most haunted places in Fiji.
00:14:45
Lee Hatfield
Yeah. And seeing how local we are to where we're staying to hurt yeah to hopefully but hopefully to go and yeah not necessarily investigate, but to go and see these places and talk to the locals and stuff like that.
00:14:49
Dr. Ciaran O'Keeffe
Perfect.
00:14:57
Dr. Ciaran O'Keeffe
Brilliant.
00:14:57
Lee Hatfield
But once you get it once you get it in your blood, yeah It never leaves. yeah You may take a ah ah back step or a back seat every now and then, but it always comes back and you've always got that interest and you've always, as soon as something new comes up or there's a new site, a new location, you you always jump at that chance to go to go and investigate or to get some more research.
00:15:21
Lee Hatfield
Do you find exactly the same?
00:15:24
Dr. Ciaran O'Keeffe
Yes, absolutely. I don't think I'm tired of ghost hunting, but also hearing about ghost stories for my entire career, from even those early days of of visiting that pig farm and reading James
Methods and Natural Explanations in Ghost Hunting
00:15:40
Dr. Ciaran O'Keeffe
Herbert and reading those early books. Even from that, I have not tired of it.
00:15:46
Dr. Ciaran O'Keeffe
And yeah, anywhere I go, similar to your Fiji excursion coming up, anywhere I go I'll be on the lookout for potential haunted locations but I'll also be contacting local ghost groups as well to find out about any ghost hunts going on or if they've got any tips or stories that I should be hearing of and and you're right that it's kind of ghost hunting and fascination with ghosts is is in the blood in some way and
00:16:20
Dr. Ciaran O'Keeffe
and And I guess it is, on reflection, it is something that's very true for me because I'm a parapsychologist, but of course I'm a well-known skeptic as well.
00:16:32
Dr. Ciaran O'Keeffe
And so people find it strange that I would reach out to local ghost hunters or local ghost groups. But know yeah over the past 10 years of growing reputation in England and ghost hunters kind of getting it now, that I'm as fascinated by ghosts as they are.
00:16:50
Dr. Ciaran O'Keeffe
You know, that that passion, that embedded passion that we've got for ghost hunting and and for and for investigating stories and hearing of people's ghost stories has always been there.
00:16:51
Lee Hatfield
Yeah.
00:17:01
Dr. Ciaran O'Keeffe
And just because I have a slightly different perspective, it doesn't mean that I'm arrogant enough to dismiss what they do and how they do it. You know, we've all got a similar sort of passion and enthusiasm for it, just slightly different ways of going about it. And I don't think that's wrong. And I just think, you know, I love, like i said, I love hearing the stories and I love hearing about the ghost hunts.
00:17:26
Lee Hatfield
Exactly. And that was one one of the things that I know one of one of the first TV shows that you was on was Most Haunted. And the fact that you would blatantly go, well, this could be A, B, C and D doesn't necessarily mean it's going to be of a paranormal nature.
00:17:46
Lee Hatfield
And I've always kind of taken that on board. and the fact that yeah I've looked into the yeah the EMF can can produce hallucinations and yeah black mold can produce hallucinations.
00:18:02
Lee Hatfield
Back in the day when you first started doing things like Most Haunted, that kind of information wasn't readily available like it is now. And there's so many different groups that are coming out into the open now.
00:18:17
Lee Hatfield
People didn't used to talk about it, but now, If you go into a bar like i do, and if I'm wearing a T-shirt, people ask what it is. Oh, I've had an experience once. And then they they go into telling you the experience.
00:18:31
Lee Hatfield
And there's more...
00:18:31
Dr. Ciaran O'Keeffe
yeah
00:18:33
Lee Hatfield
reality now occurring where people are understanding that it's not necessarily going to be of a paranormal nature. There could be a rational explanation for what's happening.
00:18:47
Lee Hatfield
And that yeah that that's but that's a benefit to yourself, been doing what you do, and other groups that are genuine looking for a yeah a natural phenomena rather than something of a paranormal nature.
00:19:00
Dr. Ciaran O'Keeffe
Yes, but it's also interesting you hear that because you say that because in the UK, the number of groups that are looking for, you know, natural phenomena, I can count on one hand, as in natural phenomena as opposed to supernatural phenomena, you know, where their where their sole motivation is looking for the natural phenomena.
00:19:17
Lee Hatfield
Yeah.
00:19:21
Dr. Ciaran O'Keeffe
That's on one hand. But there's also... many, many groups who are there to ghost hunt and to find evidence of ghosts. But they have, like you say, that awareness of the alternative, the natural explanations as well.
00:19:37
Dr. Ciaran O'Keeffe
And so they are looking for things like black mold or they're looking for things like infrasound or yeah EMF, et cetera, to help explain these experiences.
00:19:48
Dr. Ciaran O'Keeffe
But you also get the other end of the spectrum of people that are just not interested in the natural explanations at all. you know, and and to an extent, i don't mind that.
00:19:54
Lee Hatfield
Exactly.
00:19:59
Dr. Ciaran O'Keeffe
But let's talk about it in terms of belief and perspectives. You've got cynicism all the way to dogmatism. So often people think of me as being a skeptic, and they think that I'm a cynic, which means that I'm closed-minded to the possibility, and I don't want to hear anything you know about ghosts. I'm not cynical.
00:20:18
Dr. Ciaran O'Keeffe
I'm skeptical, which is kind of the middle point. Skeptical means open-minded but questioning. And of course, I'm fully aware of all the natural explanations. If I go to the other end, you've got dogmatism, which is an extreme level of belief that's almost the same as cynicism. It's closed-minded.
00:20:37
Dr. Ciaran O'Keeffe
It's not listening to all alternatives. i ever have a problem that end. I don't have a problem with people that believe in ghosts at all, especially based on their own personal experiences. But I also don't have a problem if people continue...
00:20:50
Dr. Ciaran O'Keeffe
to believe in ghosts and believe in ghostly evidence if they're presented with my argument for some of the natural explanations, but they choose to go, yes, it's interesting, but I still think what happened to me was real and it was a ghost.
00:21:07
Dr. Ciaran O'Keeffe
At least they've listened rather than just ignored and dismissed it. I don't mind that sort of conversation, and I think that sort of conversation is quite healthy, actually.
00:21:19
Lee Hatfield
Yeah. And a few years ago, when we first created SIPA, I was talking to a friend of mine, told him what we were doing and how we were going about it. And he went, oh, that's complete BS.
00:21:34
Lee Hatfield
And went, well, what do you mean it's complete? He goes, well, it's it's all rubbish. And I went, oh, so obviously you've got some evidence to prove that.
Unexplainable Phenomena and Subjective Experience
00:21:41
Lee Hatfield
And I called him out on it. And he went, well well, no, it's just my personal belief. And I said, well, what we do, we were if we get invited to a property, we will do all the normal checks.
00:21:54
Lee Hatfield
If they've got noises in the attic, we'll check for rodents. And like like you say, EMF and black mold and and stuff like that. And said, it's not until... where we've absolutely ran out of natural phenomena like issues, but then we kind of put the other hat on and have a little bit more fun.
00:22:15
Lee Hatfield
And then we will go to see if we can actually communicate. So we do all the normal stuff first and say, OK, unfortunately, you've got large EMF in this area.
00:22:27
Lee Hatfield
we can't really move forward until you get that rectified, then we'll come back and will and we'll yeah we'll continue the investigation.
00:22:35
Dr. Ciaran O'Keeffe
yeah
00:22:36
Lee Hatfield
And once I'd explained to him about that, his attitude completely changed and went, oh, okay, tell me more.
00:22:40
Dr. Ciaran O'Keeffe
Yeah.
00:22:43
Dr. Ciaran O'Keeffe
yeah i think, yeah.
00:22:44
Lee Hatfield
And then he was more interested about how we're doing it.
00:22:46
Dr. Ciaran O'Keeffe
I think you're absolutely right. it A simple way that I put it to people is I say, look, there are natural and supernatural explanations for people's experiences when they're reporting ghosts.
00:22:59
Dr. Ciaran O'Keeffe
I have a list of natural explanations. People report and I hear that what they're saying. I'll go through my natural list and I'll tick them off or cross them out.
00:23:13
Dr. Ciaran O'Keeffe
I go, it's not that one, it's not that one, it's not that one, if I am able to. Once I've discounted all of those at the bottom of the list, it's supernatural explanations. And I think what you're proposing and what you do as a group it's is a very good way of doing It's that discounting all of these natural explanations and then leaving a supernatural one at the end.
00:23:33
Lee Hatfield
Exactly. Yeah.
00:23:35
Dr. Ciaran O'Keeffe
With the caveat, which of course you will find and have found in the past with your investigations, the caveat being it is not always easy to discount or find the natural explanation because the moment has gone.
00:23:52
Dr. Ciaran O'Keeffe
You know, when people are having an experience, you're not often there.
00:23:52
Lee Hatfield
yeah
00:23:56
Dr. Ciaran O'Keeffe
They're reporting it after the fact. And it's difficult to go back and measure a lot of what might have been going on at that particular point in history.
00:24:06
Lee Hatfield
That's right. And ah ah a perfect example is back in June, the three of us went to a lovely little hotel just over the border and in the US, and it's got a history of like ghost stories and and this kind of stuff.
00:24:21
Lee Hatfield
And we rented the most two important the most highly active rooms in the hotel. And we're setting cameras up, and there's a ah ah cabinet with a TV on.
00:24:36
Lee Hatfield
And the door creaks open. Of course, we haven't got any cameras set up at this time, but this door creaks open. And it's got a wooden latch on it. So we're all looking at each other and going, in door just creaked open.
00:24:49
Lee Hatfield
But rather than than go, oh my god, it's ghost. Oh, yeah. yeah Let's check that box. We then put the latch back and we were banging on the table. were stamping on the floor, banging the sides of it, and we were doing everything we possibly could to make that cupboard door open.
00:25:06
Lee Hatfield
And we could not replicate that cupboard door opening no matter how close to the latch we'd we'd put it. And we were back and we we stopped what we were doing, and for like half an hour, we're doing trying everything we possibly could to get this cupboard door to open, and we could not do it.
00:25:25
Dr. Ciaran O'Keeffe
Yeah, but then that's what I was saying earlier. There's the frustrating part of ghost hunting, and then there's the same part of ghost hunting, which is the reason why we continue do it.
00:25:37
Dr. Ciaran O'Keeffe
The fascinating part.
00:25:38
Lee Hatfield
Exactly.
00:25:39
Dr. Ciaran O'Keeffe
And that's a prime example, the frustrating part.
00:25:39
Lee Hatfield
Yeah.
00:25:42
Dr. Ciaran O'Keeffe
And the most frustrating part for me, and for you, is not having it recorded. ah So not being able to replicate exactly, I mean, you did your best, you're not able to replicate exactly what happened, but also the evidence now is anecdotal evidence that's reported by you and the group.
00:25:48
Lee Hatfield
Yes.
00:26:00
Dr. Ciaran O'Keeffe
So that's the frustrating part, but then that is not unusual in ghost hunting, you know especially with poltergeist cases, this idea that phenomena can happen when it's least expected, but can also often happen when you are not paying attention.
00:26:18
Dr. Ciaran O'Keeffe
And that's what I find really interesting about ghost hunting and you know cases generally.
00:26:18
Lee Hatfield
Yeah.
00:26:23
Lee Hatfield
Exactly. Yeah. So let's go into some of your more confusing or unexplainable questions.
00:26:34
Lee Hatfield
experiences. So are there any that stick in your mind all the time that yeah if somebody asks you this question, you can go, okay, yeah, there's this, this when that happened, and I can't explain it?
00:26:46
Lee Hatfield
Do you have those kinds of stories?
00:26:48
Dr. Ciaran O'Keeffe
Yeah, I have, ah ah i call them head-scratching moments, which frustrates the hell out of my wife because she says, no, forget it, you've got to say that it was a ghost. And I say, well, no, it's a head-scratching moment because I can't explain it. A couple of classic ones, a haunted nightclub in northwest of England, kind of Liverpool,
00:27:11
Dr. Ciaran O'Keeffe
area and had investigated it with a group for about six months so once or twice a week for six months and all of the phenomena associated with the place started when a group of staff sat down and did a seance after the club had closed so late one night they'd cleaned everything up and they did a seance They did the sound. They said the atmosphere changed.
00:27:36
Dr. Ciaran O'Keeffe
Fire exit doors opened of their own accord. Saw a shadow walk behind the bar. Objects move over the course of several days following
Audio Evidence in Paranormal Investigations
00:27:45
Dr. Ciaran O'Keeffe
the sound. So kind of a definite change.
00:27:48
Dr. Ciaran O'Keeffe
They called in the local ghost group and I was based at the university in Liverpool and after a few months that group called me in to investigate with them. Fascinating case. the the the The nightclub when we started investigating had officially closed.
00:28:04
Dr. Ciaran O'Keeffe
It was being sold off for redevelopment and somebody else was buying it and it's now I think Jim. But... After about six months, all of the staff that were in that original sales happened to be in that property on one particular night, purely by chance.
00:28:22
Dr. Ciaran O'Keeffe
At no point had we had the whole group together, five yeah five of them. We hadn't had all five of them together. so
00:28:34
Dr. Ciaran O'Keeffe
Two of them were part of the investigation that particular night and a cup and three of them had been passing by and seen the lights on, knocked on the door and they came in. they said that they would do happily do the seance again just to kind of replicate it so we could see where they're all sat and everything and and they weren't scared by it because we asked them we were concerned about kind of the ethics of it and they said no no it's fine we know this place is closed we're not coming back here again so it's not a problem what they did was do the sound up and and i was filming using a thermal imaging camera
00:29:07
Dr. Ciaran O'Keeffe
And I always set it to black and white rather than the color that you see on a lot of TV shows. Set it to black and white so that if there's a drop in temperature, it shows up in green. And you can immediately see that relative drop in temperature.
00:29:21
Dr. Ciaran O'Keeffe
So I was filming them in black and white, not for a TV show, but for a record of the event. After about 20, 30 minutes, a couple of them went, well, nothing's happening. We don't feel like you know there's anything here. And we don't feel you know like we're in contact with anything. So we'll stop.
00:29:37
Dr. Ciaran O'Keeffe
And I said, well, don't stop because it's a rare occurrence that you're all together. Give it maybe another 10, 15 minutes. If nothing happens, we'll just call it a night. What I didn't tell them was that on the thermal imaging camera, what I saw was almost like a green fog kind of approaching from the side of the room towards the science table, which indicates a drop in temperature.
00:30:02
Dr. Ciaran O'Keeffe
and sure enough after a few minutes they said oh it feels like there's something here with us and they were doing some glass work on the table which i'm not a fan of but they were getting very excited by what's happening and they reported a definite atmosphere change for them and of course what was happening is this green fog had approached the sales table and it almost kind of enveloped the table and the people sat around it and just sat there for about 30 minutes whilst they were making all this contact And then one of them sat at the table said, it feels like whatever was here is now going away.
00:30:40
Dr. Ciaran O'Keeffe
And right before she had said that, this green fog just removed itself from the the table in the group and started to travel along the floor back out of the room.
00:30:52
Dr. Ciaran O'Keeffe
like a weird fog. And, you know, what's fascinating about it is you get people's experiences interpreting it. So you get the subjective experience of people going, weird atmosphere, there's something here with us.
00:31:05
Dr. Ciaran O'Keeffe
And you get a tangible, objective measurement. that there is a drop in temperature, yet no windows had been opened inadvertently, no doors had been opened, there was no reason why there should have been a drop in temperature, and certainly not one that gave the appearance of almost like a fog travelling at floor level towards them. So that, for me, is a wonderful head-scratching moment. The moment has gone.
00:31:31
Dr. Ciaran O'Keeffe
Can't go back into that property and replicate what happened and find out what happened ham So, yeah, that was a definite head-scratching moment.
00:31:41
Dr. Ciaran O'Keeffe
Really odd.
00:31:42
Lee Hatfield
that is
00:31:42
Dr. Ciaran O'Keeffe
Really odd.
00:31:43
Lee Hatfield
That is, yeah. And like you say, the fact that you cannot explain it and with you having the background that you have, for someone like you to experience that, it's like, so lot no i I just can't.
Personal Belief and Supernatural Explanations
00:31:58
Lee Hatfield
I just can't.
00:31:59
Dr. Ciaran O'Keeffe
Yeah.
00:31:59
Lee Hatfield
And I think people actually...
00:32:00
Dr. Ciaran O'Keeffe
Answer.
00:32:02
Lee Hatfield
enjoy having you say that because of your background, because of the yeah yeah academic background and stuff like that, that if you can't explain something, it's got to be something, let's be just say, really cool and yeah so a like outstanding for them to to be involved with that.
00:32:25
Dr. Ciaran O'Keeffe
Well, i'm I'm very grateful you say that. I think, and it's wonderful if people are thinking that, I think in a way it's kind of overestimating the fact that I am just human and people have experiences no matter what.
00:32:38
Dr. Ciaran O'Keeffe
Yes, I'm an experienced parapsychologist with 40 plus years now and ghost hunting 40 plus years. and So I have all that experience and all that knowledge. But by the same token,
00:32:51
Dr. Ciaran O'Keeffe
People always ask me, what is the best evidence that we can get on a ghost hunt? And yeah the example I gave you is lovely because it's objective and it's subjective. You've got the thermal imaging footage plus the people's experience.
00:33:05
Dr. Ciaran O'Keeffe
But I always say, you know what? The best evidence you can get for a ghostly experience is your own. 100%.
00:33:12
Lee Hatfield
Yeah.
00:33:13
Dr. Ciaran O'Keeffe
It's your own often subjective experience. Because let's not forget... When we investigate properties, we are investigating those properties largely because somebody has visited it or lived in it or worked in it as a security guard or a cleaner or something and reported an experience.
00:33:33
Dr. Ciaran O'Keeffe
But what they were doing was probably not ghost hunting. They were doing anything but ghost hunting and they had a natural experience. So for people to go into those properties and have a similar sort of experience,
00:33:46
Dr. Ciaran O'Keeffe
That for me is the best evidence. You know, you can give me loads of photos and EVPs and film footage. And yes, it's impressive, but you can still always question it. And I love it.
00:33:57
Dr. Ciaran O'Keeffe
Don't get me wrong. There are some photos that I love and some EVPs that I love and videos that I do love.
00:33:58
Lee Hatfield
yeah
00:34:02
Dr. Ciaran O'Keeffe
Don't get me wrong. But I just think in terms of the best evidence, when people ask me, what is the best evidence? I always say it's your own.
00:34:10
Dr. Ciaran O'Keeffe
you know And there's nothing you can do to necessarily convince me that it is a real ghost experience. You have to be convinced yourself. And so all I'm going to do is offer an alternative explanation to make you think about the alternative
00:34:10
Lee Hatfield
yeah
Academic Study of Demonology
00:34:27
Dr. Ciaran O'Keeffe
explanation. If you then feel that, no, your experience was genuine and it was a ghostly experience, then fine.
00:34:33
Dr. Ciaran O'Keeffe
That's absolutely fine.
00:34:34
Lee Hatfield
Yeah, that's it.
00:34:35
Dr. Ciaran O'Keeffe
I respect that.
00:34:37
Lee Hatfield
one of my favorite experiences that I had, the the place that it went to last night, we was there 18 months ago.
00:34:48
Lee Hatfield
and I was doing just a solo walk around in an area of of cells that's called the Hell's Angel Wing. And I'm doing my normal thing. I've got my body camera, I've got my audio, and I've got my camera, meel the other camera with me.
00:35:03
Lee Hatfield
And I'm just asking yeah the normal questions that everybody asks. If there's anybody here, please make a sign, make a sound. And and I'd very much appreciate that. And I did not hear it at the time.
00:35:14
Lee Hatfield
But on review on the audio, I heard a double breath straight after I said i would appreciate that. Now, I've got a friend who is very knowledgeable with audio and he's he's got his own podcast, but he does that kind of feel for his work.
00:35:35
Lee Hatfield
I sent it to him to say, i would like to know, if possible, what this was. And he even broke it down to voice waves and said, this is your voice wave.
00:35:46
Lee Hatfield
The double breath is this. And as you can see, there's two different kind of levels. He went, so definitely it wasn't you. and the closest person, apart from me, was maybe 40 to 60 feet away, but it was a double breath that I heard on the audio.
00:36:04
Lee Hatfield
And it's like, that's that's that's gold for me.
00:36:07
Dr. Ciaran O'Keeffe
Yeah, amazing.
00:36:08
Lee Hatfield
Because, yeah, because it's something that I, you know, only I experienced it, but I cannot explain it. I did not hear it at the time. But to have a professional in the audio world break it down to the but bare bones, so to speak, and to say, this was your voice, this was the voice, and it was two completely different.
00:36:29
Lee Hatfield
like wavelengths it was like okay yeah i'm not gonna say it's a ghost i'm gonna put it to the unexplained pile the head scratching pile yeah
00:36:31
Dr. Ciaran O'Keeffe
Brilliant.
00:36:37
Dr. Ciaran O'Keeffe
Yes. A head-scratching pile. Yes. But it's lovely to have that. But it's also lovely to have that kind of you know external expertise you can call upon.
00:36:48
Dr. Ciaran O'Keeffe
But I don't think everybody has that... ability But also kudos to you for inviting that external expertise.
00:36:50
Lee Hatfield
no
00:36:55
Dr. Ciaran O'Keeffe
I think too often what I do see with some amateur ghost hunters is attempts to analyze stuff like that themselves. I don't mind it, you know, at a cursory kind of superficial level.
00:37:08
Dr. Ciaran O'Keeffe
But if you're getting to the point of thinking that audio, an audio footage is something paranormal, then why not get that expertise in just a double check?
00:37:22
Dr. Ciaran O'Keeffe
Or if a photograph you think is a ghost or a film is is of a ghost, whatever it is, then get in the experts.
00:37:22
Lee Hatfield
yeah
00:37:30
Dr. Ciaran O'Keeffe
You know, it's the same thing that I talk about with them infrasound. I work with some amazing people and have done in the past who are expert acoustic engineers and acousticians generally who, yes, I have amazing and and, you know, full knowledge of infrasound. And it's one of the things I absolutely love talking about.
00:37:55
Dr. Ciaran O'Keeffe
But my background is not acoustics. So I will always defer to the experts, you know, in terms of how you measure it or whether it's present or that sort of thing.
00:37:58
Lee Hatfield
Yeah.
00:38:04
Dr. Ciaran O'Keeffe
And I think there needs to be a lot more of that, you know, to either develop your own expertise or to be to recognize that we don't necessarily have that or we reach a point of
00:38:07
Lee Hatfield
Yeah.
Ethical Considerations in Investigations
00:38:15
Dr. Ciaran O'Keeffe
not knowing.
00:38:16
Dr. Ciaran O'Keeffe
So we need to call in experts.
00:38:19
Lee Hatfield
Yeah, and what's interesting about that location is we went there about three months later, so this was last year, exactly the same room. This time I'd got my two friends with me. One was sat maybe 30 feet away from me.
00:38:34
Lee Hatfield
The second one was maybe halfway between us both. And he was talking and you can hear the talking on the audio. And we were with another group that were doing something else in the building.
00:38:45
Lee Hatfield
And also got my my three recording devices. I walked out into the corridor. You can see the camera pan down the corridor so you know that somebody that nobody's there.
00:38:56
Lee Hatfield
My colleague is still talking. And as I walk back into the room, I kind of hear like a wah. But I didn't hear it at the time. Again, this was on review. So as soon as i heard that on the audio, I went to my body camera for the exact same time.
00:39:12
Lee Hatfield
It was on the body camera. And for my cap my my other video camera, it was on that as well. And again, i sent it to the same guy and he come back and went, yep, you've got another good catch in exactly the same building, exactly the same room.
00:39:26
Lee Hatfield
So there's something happening in there.
00:39:26
Dr. Ciaran O'Keeffe
I am.
00:39:28
Lee Hatfield
But, yeah, you can't explain it. And again, it was another personal experience. But two experiences that I never heard at the time, but you only hear it in review.
00:39:32
Dr. Ciaran O'Keeffe
Hmm.
00:39:38
Lee Hatfield
And that's why reviewing your evidence is so important because not –
00:39:42
Dr. Ciaran O'Keeffe
But also it's fascinating fascinating to hear about a case in a location that you have uncovered that has given you repeatable phenomena as well, because I think that's always a little bit of the Holy Grail, is finding phenomena that is yeah is repeatable.
00:39:52
Lee Hatfield
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
00:40:01
Dr. Ciaran O'Keeffe
You hear about it in some particular locations. and some I've investigated some amazing locations worldwide myself where you hear about this repeatable phenomena, but even the repeatable phenomena is not every single time you visit.
00:40:16
Dr. Ciaran O'Keeffe
You know, it might be once every couple of months or once a year even, but it's happened over a century, that sort of thing.
00:40:18
Lee Hatfield
yeah
00:40:21
Lee Hatfield
yeah
00:40:23
Dr. Ciaran O'Keeffe
But to get a situation where you visit it twice and you captured a similar sort of EVP is, yeah, it's fascinating.
00:40:30
Lee Hatfield
Yeah, and like say, that makes this hobby, job, whichever you are makes it worthwhile because you are getting the unexplained evidence that you've analysed, you've had tested, and you cannot like explain what it is.
00:40:38
Dr. Ciaran O'Keeffe
Yeah.
00:40:50
Dr. Ciaran O'Keeffe
Exactly.
00:40:50
Dr. Ciaran O'Keeffe
yeah. Hmm.
00:40:50
Lee Hatfield
So one thing that after doing the the stalking bit with regard to you to just find out a bit about background, I did come across the School of Parapsychology.
00:41:02
Dr. Ciaran O'Keeffe
so yeah
00:41:02
Lee Hatfield
And I noticed that there's there's a few courses that you teach. And I noticed that you had one on demonology. So where did where did your interest in demonology come about?
00:41:17
Dr. Ciaran O'Keeffe
That's a very good question. So I've always been fascinated by it. brought up and I was brought up in an Irish Roman Catholic family and surrounded by discussions of religious parapsychological phenomena, stigmata, levitation, xenoglossy, which is speaking a language of which
Challenges in Proving the Paranormal
00:41:37
Dr. Ciaran O'Keeffe
you've got no prior knowledge, but also demonic possession and exorcism.
00:41:43
Dr. Ciaran O'Keeffe
Never been in a situation as ah as a boy witnessing any of this stuff, but there's mention of it in the book and discussion about it. So that was ah kind of a little bit of a fascination there But the reality in terms of really being interested in demonology hit home about 20, 25 years ago when I started to realize that in North America there were more and more individuals who were calling themselves demonologists and going into haunted properties and saying that the haunting experiences or the haunting phenomena was caused by demons. And this is about 25 years ago
00:42:24
Dr. Ciaran O'Keeffe
I'm sure the listeners will be thinking, yeah, you know, it's really kicked off in the last five or so years, which it has to a huge extent on TV shows where, you know, we know certain groups, certain individuals will say that a haunting experience is down to a demon and every single haunting experience is.
00:42:44
Dr. Ciaran O'Keeffe
So I was very conscious of this, but I was very conscious, you know, that
00:42:45
Lee Hatfield
Yeah.
00:42:50
Dr. Ciaran O'Keeffe
that is not demonology. You know, demonology in my world, and I say my world, my academic and scientific world, means something totally different. It doesn't mean somebody that dresses in black, although I'm wearing black now, so doesn't, doesn't play well, but it doesn't mean somebody that, you know, dresses in black and and carrying a silver crucifix, you know, and declaring everything as being de demononic. That isn't it?
00:43:14
Dr. Ciaran O'Keeffe
Not demonology. Demonology is kind of, you know, it's it's an academic endeavour. It's understanding demons. It's understanding the hierarchy of demons. It's understanding how demons are discussed throughout history.
00:43:33
Dr. Ciaran O'Keeffe
But also individuals and and who claim that they are possessed by demons, there could be alternative explanations for.
00:43:44
Dr. Ciaran O'Keeffe
and But also you look at any number of different cultures historically, and they will have different ways of interpreting. demons But also you've got a discipline there that looks at and demons and demonology from a medical perspective, from a sociological perspective, cultural perspective, psychological perspective, community perspective, you name it.
00:44:07
Dr. Ciaran O'Keeffe
It's almost like the development of a natural phenomena rather than a supernatural phenomena. But we have that term now and it's been, if anything, it's a term that has been exacerbated and exaggerated by religion more than anything else. And now it appears that a lot of ghost hunters are adopting it.
00:44:25
Dr. Ciaran O'Keeffe
So it's one of those topics that I'm fascinated by. And one of the fringe areas that I study is it and teach about on the School of Parapsychology is religious parapsychology, demonology, demonic possession, exorcism.
00:44:40
Dr. Ciaran O'Keeffe
Fascinated by it, but also incredibly skeptical about it. I know.
00:44:45
Lee Hatfield
yeah
00:44:46
Dr. Ciaran O'Keeffe
and I've done extensive research, especially around demonic possession. You know, so, yeah, so that's kind of where it comes from.
Balancing Personal Belief with Scientific Skepticism
00:44:53
Dr. Ciaran O'Keeffe
And that's my approach.
00:44:56
Lee Hatfield
Yeah, because I know a good example of not doing it the correct way is the Anneliese Michelle case where yeah she died of malnutrition.
00:45:08
Dr. Ciaran O'Keeffe
Oh, yes. Yeah.
00:45:13
Lee Hatfield
think the parents and the priest were actually convicted of negligence in the end.
00:45:19
Dr. Ciaran O'Keeffe
Yeah.
00:45:20
Lee Hatfield
So that kind of puts it into perspective that not everything is what it seems.
00:45:28
Dr. Ciaran O'Keeffe
Yes.
00:45:29
Lee Hatfield
And for anybody that wants to anybody that wants to go into that field, that should be a perfect starting point, that that case for Annalise, to say, yeah this is what went wrong and this was not proven to be demonic.
00:45:29
Dr. Ciaran O'Keeffe
Exactly.
00:45:37
Dr. Ciaran O'Keeffe
Yeah.
00:45:44
Lee Hatfield
It was just bad actions and practices by the parents and the clergy.
00:45:49
Dr. Ciaran O'Keeffe
Yes, and you know coincidentally, we're talking about the same period when the Enfield Poltergeist happened. and 1976 was when Anneliese Michelle unfortunately died as a result of malnutrition and 60 plus exorcisms that were conducted you know over the course of however many, you know a couple of years.
00:46:11
Lee Hatfield
Yeah.
00:46:16
Dr. Ciaran O'Keeffe
But quite extreme intervention. and But also let's not forget that in that situation you also get ah ah lot of support for the idea that she was demonically possessed from her family but also herself she had a very strong belief in this so it wasn't just you know that nobody had a belief in it and these priests came along there was a definite belief that was happening but yeah fascinating case if anybody is interested in demonic possession do look at the annalise michelle case it was around 1975 76 maybe a few years before then when it all started but that was germany
00:46:59
Dr. Ciaran O'Keeffe
and yeah, fascinating case. There is actually a Hollywood movie that was done, a version of it, which is The Exorcism of Emily Rose, which is a movie directed, I think written by, but directed by Scott Derrickson, who who has done a couple of Possession movies, but he took the Annalise Michelle case and transposed it into America, so changed it to an American thing, but actually it's
00:47:08
Lee Hatfield
Yeah, that was based on, yeah.
00:47:26
Dr. Ciaran O'Keeffe
It's quite a good representation of the case in terms of the ethics and kind of the extreme intervention, which was very harmful at the time.
00:47:37
Lee Hatfield
Yeah, because when I decided that I was going to really dig deep into the paranormal and yeah started doing the investigations, I decided that I was going to try and boost my knowledge level.
Career Management and Future Projects
00:47:51
Lee Hatfield
So ah ah do similar courses to what to what you. you have there was ghosts and poltergeists and one of them was actually an introduction to demonology because yeah you can't talk about the paranormal and not include demonology even though a lot of it is misconstrued into something that it's not and it was interesting to say that the guy that was teaching was if the roman catholic church take on some priests as trained exorcists, one of the first courses they teach them is mental health issues.
00:48:30
Lee Hatfield
Because back in the day when we didn't have all this technology and this knowledge, people with mental health could have been but misdiagnosed as being like possessed.
00:48:44
Dr. Ciaran O'Keeffe
Yeah. yeah
00:48:46
Lee Hatfield
And the fact that the Catholic Church are teaching priests about mental health issues first before they go into anything else, I think that kind of proves a little bit of a point, so to speak, that you've got to look at the natural things before before you look at the unnatural.
00:49:05
Dr. Ciaran O'Keeffe
It does, it does. But I tell you know, students on my course, so I run a course, Deliver Us From Evil, course on Exorcism and Possession, very quickly realize that even though that is a strength with some of the training that happens in the Catholic faith, and there are other other faiths that do that to to to teach them about mental health,
00:49:28
Dr. Ciaran O'Keeffe
It's also one of them one of the weaknesses. And the reason why because, yes, mental health may be responsible, mental health issues might be responsible for outward appearing symptoms that are misinterpreted as demonic possession.
00:49:43
Dr. Ciaran O'Keeffe
But certainly not by priests now who have that training. But yes, mental health may be responsible for it a lot. But I always say psychology, psychiatry and neurology, we need to have full knowledge of those things.
00:49:56
Dr. Ciaran O'Keeffe
So not just the psychiatric, which is the mental health issues, but there's a huge psychological issue, which is not around mental health.
00:49:57
Lee Hatfield
Yeah.
00:50:04
Dr. Ciaran O'Keeffe
but it's around things like suggestion. It's around things like belief in attention or blindness, loads of psychological concepts that have nothing to do with mental health, psychiatry to do with mental health, but then also ne neurology.
00:50:17
Dr. Ciaran O'Keeffe
that a psychiatrist wouldn't necessarily know and a psychologist wouldn't know that there are things that can happen in the brain that are not about mental health but are about things going wrong, you know, with your neurology.
00:50:21
Lee Hatfield
yeah
00:50:30
Dr. Ciaran O'Keeffe
And priests don't know about it. Skeptics don't know about it. People don't know about it. So I mention that because there's a gap there. of knowledge that even the most ethical priest that has been trained on mental health issues but also identifies a case who then he takes to the bishop you know to get that everla extra level of scrutiny or to take to a gp or doctor or take to a psychiatrist
00:50:41
Lee Hatfield
Yeah.
00:50:58
Dr. Ciaran O'Keeffe
They're only tapping into one area of expertise. In an ideal world, it's almost like a triage, in an ideal world you would be taking them to a psychologist and a psychiatrist and a neurologist for a check first before you make that decision to do an exorcism.
00:51:13
Lee Hatfield
Yeah. And I, yeah, having a paramedic background, yeah. Yes, there were a lot of psychiatric cases that I've been to and I've seen. And the way that the brain works, we don't know half of it.
00:51:28
Lee Hatfield
Yeah. Even something like anesthesia, they're not quite sure how it works. They just know that it does work. Yeah. And it's a short term and it's like,
00:51:40
Lee Hatfield
Really? Yeah. I'm going for an operation on a broken leg. Oh, yeah, we're going to put you under for an hour. Okay. Let's just hope the hope that I come back out the other side. Yeah.
00:51:49
Dr. Ciaran O'Keeffe
Yeah, exactly.
00:51:51
Lee Hatfield
yeah And it's funny that yeah that we talk about ah demonology and stuff because if people get... a scratch. They automatically assume that it's a benevolent spirit, that somebody or something is out there attacking them.
00:52:05
Dr. Ciaran O'Keeffe
Hmm.
00:52:11
Lee Hatfield
But what I enjoy telling people ah ah I try not to be smug about it, but sometimes you can't help. Whereas if I'm going to be talking to you and you've got your back to me and I'm not of this realm, so to speak, and I call out Kieran, you can't necessarily hear me.
00:52:29
Lee Hatfield
So I'm going to shout louder. You still may not hear me. So the next natural human action is for me to reach out and tap you on the arm, tap you on the shoulder to get your attention.
00:52:41
Lee Hatfield
And I try to tell people that, That could be the action of an innocent, let's go there, an innocent spirit, an in innocent yeah apparition, is trying to get your attention by touching you.
00:52:55
Lee Hatfield
And that transference of energy could be what's caused a scratch. And it doesn't necessarily mean it's a benevolent entity that's that's out to get you, so to speak.
00:53:06
Dr. Ciaran O'Keeffe
Yeah, i think I think that's a great way of interpreting it, and it very much ties into some of the papers that I've written over in the last five, six years, arguing that...
00:53:17
Dr. Ciaran O'Keeffe
If the phenomena is real, the phenomena is real universally, but there's a different way of labelling it. You know, so you're talking about scratches and one person might interpret the scratch as being an aggressive act.
00:53:31
Dr. Ciaran O'Keeffe
Your interpretation, which is a lovely one, is that no, actually, it might not be that. It might be that they're trying to get there get your attention. Another interpretation might be that it's an accident. They didn't intend to scratch you, as we see you know in everyday life that could potentially happen.
00:53:46
Dr. Ciaran O'Keeffe
Another interpretation could be that it's a demon. There's lots of different interpretations. It's the same example that I use and with my students for poltergeist activity. if If, you know, ah a China cup smashes to the ground in a poltergeist case, what is that? Is that a poltergeist?
00:54:07
Dr. Ciaran O'Keeffe
And your interpretation of that is that it's violent, it's aggressive? being destructive. Or is it a clumsy ghost that's just walked past a China cup and knocked it to the ground? You know, you don't know.
00:54:18
Lee Hatfield
yeah
00:54:19
Dr. Ciaran O'Keeffe
You don't know. The phenomena might be real, but your interpretation of that can vary. There can be so many different interpretations.
00:54:29
Lee Hatfield
I'll see You're now married. I'm married. yeah You wake up in the morning and you've got a scratch. yeah okay Did the wife scratch me in the middle of the night and she doesn't know about it?
00:54:42
Lee Hatfield
Or do we have a poltergeist sharing our room with us that we don't know about? And you've got to be really like logical, like we like we mentioned earlier.
00:54:47
Dr. Ciaran O'Keeffe
yeah
00:54:52
Lee Hatfield
And so like, OK, the chances are yeah it was wifey. She got yeah was having a bit of a dream, turned over and scrapped her with her sharp nails. yeah It's not going to be of a paranormal nature.
00:55:06
Lee Hatfield
ah ah And that's the mentality that you've got to have nowadays, which is lot of people don't do that.
00:55:10
Dr. Ciaran O'Keeffe
exactly
00:55:12
Lee Hatfield
so The fact that yeah I follow you on on social media, yeah know maanaana you've got children. How do you manage to separate your normal university work life with your investigating and TV appearances plus with your social life? Because you must be an extremely busy man.
00:55:40
Lee Hatfield
to Does your wife get involved with with these investigation as well?
00:55:41
Dr. Ciaran O'Keeffe
yeah
00:55:44
Lee Hatfield
Or is she kind of like, well, you go and do your thing, Kevin.
00:55:45
Dr. Ciaran O'Keeffe
Well, the thing is, yeah well, the the fascinating the fascinating thing is that my wife and I actually met on a ghost hunt. She was running a ghost hunt for a charitable organization and they were she was looking for allwe a celebrity to step in at the last moment, a ghost or paranormal celebrity, and the recommendation was...
00:55:54
Lee Hatfield
Oh, wow.
00:56:07
Dr. Ciaran O'Keeffe
Me and I turned up and that's it. You know, we've we met and here we are all these years later, married and have a family. So there's there's a an equal fascination with the paranormal.
00:56:19
Dr. Ciaran O'Keeffe
And I think what's lovely about our relationship is that I'm very much team sceptic and she's very much team believer in this, which is a
00:56:19
Lee Hatfield
Right.
00:56:26
Lee Hatfield
Oh, I know where that's come from.
00:56:29
Dr. Ciaran O'Keeffe
which is, yes, ah ah a lovely dichotomy. But it it kind of answers your point about you know, being a busy man, you know, we we have fascinating conversations about some of the phenomena, even what we've just talked about in terms of exorcism, you know, and that sort of thing. We've been talking about that quite a bit the last few weeks and our different views on that.
00:56:50
Dr. Ciaran O'Keeffe
and My university work, even though I'm involved in psychology, also involves parapsychology. I still do parapsychology research within a university setting. The ghost hunting stuff is separate to that, obviously, and but it's part and parcel of, I think, getting a real sense of people's experiences and a real sense of haunted locations. So I think they they you know very much kind of support each other and kind of you know marry with each other.
00:57:19
Dr. Ciaran O'Keeffe
in terms of those interests. So there is an overlap there definitely, but also there's an overlap in terms of me being a parapsychologist and a very public, very vocal side of that is is talking about the sceptical explanations I have on the various shows that I'm part of, which effectively is my research.
00:57:39
Lee Hatfield
Yeah.
00:57:41
Dr. Ciaran O'Keeffe
you know So it's not seen in any other way of that. But yeah, the whole family's fans. the paranormal too, so have a great time.
00:57:51
Lee Hatfield
ah ah I can imagine. It's quite funny how my wife, she's she loves watching all the shows. And, yeah, I've i've interviewed Kate Shirell, Barry Guy, yeah and now yourself, yeah to to add to my celebrity list.
00:58:06
Dr. Ciaran O'Keeffe
Oh, yes.
00:58:10
Lee Hatfield
And I love watching the shows that are on, and we both go, yeah. There's a cryptid, quick, set your camera to blurry.
00:58:21
Lee Hatfield
yeah and And stuff like that, because some of it is like, it's it's painful to say, oh, this door just slammed, but you don't see what's behind the door.
00:58:22
Dr. Ciaran O'Keeffe
Yeah. Yeah.
00:58:32
Dr. Ciaran O'Keeffe
yeah
00:58:32
Lee Hatfield
So you get all this TV that's giving us a bad name, but the the work that you do and the work that the true groups do, I think kind of kind of makes up for that.
00:58:45
Lee Hatfield
Most definitely.
00:58:46
Dr. Ciaran O'Keeffe
yeah
00:58:48
Lee Hatfield
So being ah ah a scientific background for yourself, do you think there's ever going to be a time where we can prove or disprove the existence of the afterlife spirits?
00:59:05
Lee Hatfield
Or do you think it will always remain like personal belief and interpretation?
00:59:10
Dr. Ciaran O'Keeffe
and
00:59:12
Dr. Ciaran O'Keeffe
i don't I don't think we will. No, I don't think we will. and And the reason why is because even if you were to find some way of definitively proving that it is, all the the only thing you'd be definitively proving is that something paranormal is going on.
00:59:28
Dr. Ciaran O'Keeffe
So let me give you an example. If a medium is in a haunted location and communicates with a spirit, right, or sees an apparition in front of them, the number of supernatural explanations for what is happening is vast.
00:59:41
Dr. Ciaran O'Keeffe
It's not just that they might have seen an apparition. It might be that they've got a telepathic link with somebody in the afterlife. It's nothing about the spirit actually appearing in front of them. It might be that the spirit in the afterlife has projected clairvoyantly into their brain an image of themselves that they perceive then as being external.
01:00:00
Dr. Ciaran O'Keeffe
It might be that they have picked up on a historical kind of, you know, ethereal record of that particular location. And therefore it's playing back like a stone tape theory, you know, scenario, but it's in front of them.
01:00:15
Dr. Ciaran O'Keeffe
And that's what I mean. even Even if you could find some definitive way to show... that when people are looking at apparition, it is not psychology and it is not the environment, but it is something supernatural.
01:00:28
Dr. Ciaran O'Keeffe
I still don't think that there's any way that you can show what particular thing is going on in terms of a supernatural explanation. And let me throw in a caveat. At least I don't think that that's going to be possible in my lifetime.
01:00:43
Dr. Ciaran O'Keeffe
If I was able to predict, could it happen beyond my lifetime, then I think I would be a richer man than I am because I would have the predictive capability to know what's going to happen in the future.
01:00:55
Dr. Ciaran O'Keeffe
And I just don't. But certainly in my lifetime, that will not happen. And I think just in inherent in my answer is something that I think people should be very conscious of, that it's very, very easy to criticize a skeptic for having lots of different natural explanations for what goes on.
01:01:13
Dr. Ciaran O'Keeffe
But I could be equally critical of people who say that there is only one explanation for their ghostly experience, and that is it is a ghost. The number of supernatural explanations is genuinely vast.
01:01:27
Dr. Ciaran O'Keeffe
And if anything, the list of supernatural explanations is longer than the list of natural explanations.
01:01:33
Lee Hatfield
Yeah, and that's what makes it interesting and makes it fun and give people like ourselves the chance to get us our teeth into something that we are not 100% sure exactly what it is.
01:01:50
Lee Hatfield
And for people to say that ghosts and spirits and other entities don't exist... So a like you can't go down that road because there's so many things that happen.
01:02:02
Lee Hatfield
We get people's stories. I've given you a couple of stories. You've given me a couple of stories that we cannot explain. We do not have a rational explanation for them.
01:02:14
Lee Hatfield
But what we saw, what we heard, what we experienced has still happened. We just can't explain it. And it's as simple as that.
01:02:22
Dr. Ciaran O'Keeffe
yeah
01:02:23
Lee Hatfield
And and it's the same as yeah UFOs or it's the same as cryptids. We see things. There may be a rational explanation, but there also may not be.
01:02:35
Lee Hatfield
And that's what makes this environment like one of the ah ah cool hobbies rather than going out playing golf ah ah so or something like that.
01:02:47
Dr. Ciaran O'Keeffe
Exactly. Yes.
01:02:48
Lee Hatfield
Yeah.
01:02:49
Dr. Ciaran O'Keeffe
Agreed.
01:02:49
Lee Hatfield
So Kieran, I could absolutely speak to you all night. I know we've been talking for an hour. We've not even touched on your TV shows. But what yeah we could do a part two next year if you're more than happy to do that.
01:03:05
Dr. Ciaran O'Keeffe
i'm happy I'm happy to do a part two even later on this year, to be honest. I've thoroughly enjoyed the chat.
01:03:11
Lee Hatfield
how but How about doing a Halloween special? How does that sound?
01:03:15
Dr. Ciaran O'Keeffe
Yeah, let's do it. I would love it.
01:03:16
Lee Hatfield
Yeah.
01:03:17
Dr. Ciaran O'Keeffe
Yeah.
01:03:18
Lee Hatfield
Okay. So we'll talk offline when we're going to do that because I have got quite a few episodes planned up until I think the end of September. You're going out next week. You heard it first here because my special people go out.
01:03:32
Lee Hatfield
I kind of bumped them to the front of the list. But what's next for Dr. Kieran O'Keefe?
01:03:39
Dr. Ciaran O'Keeffe
Wow. Loads is happening. Yeah, we'll we'll talk next time about some of the media projects, but and you know, and some of the listeners will know about Uncanny, the BBC show that I'm part of, and we're about to start a tour, an Uncanny tour that starts in two weeks, theatre tour, which goes around.
01:03:56
Lee Hatfield
Nice.
01:03:58
Dr. Ciaran O'Keeffe
various theatres for about six months various evenings so that'll be fun we are recording more episodes for from uncanny which is kind of an exclusive actually we keep dropping hints now and then but lot of fans are saying is there more uncanny coming out well yes there is we're We're doing recordings for some more episodes, both Halloween and Christmas episodes. So fingers crossed those will come together.
01:04:24
Dr. Ciaran O'Keeffe
and And I'm writing. I'm doing lots of work at the moment looking at something called and dimensional slips, which is very, very similar to magic flights, kind of, and time slips that sort thing.
01:04:36
Lee Hatfield
If you're telling me, don't tell me that because I'm looking for somebody to come and talk to me about time flips. So we can talk about that next time as well.
01:04:45
Dr. Ciaran O'Keeffe
could Talk about that too.
01:04:48
Lee Hatfield
Oh, my God. See, yeah you just created extra episodes for me, Kieran, and um I thoroughly appreciate it.
01:04:55
Dr. Ciaran O'Keeffe
Brilliant.
01:04:56
Lee Hatfield
Okay, my friend, it's been an absolute pleasure. We'll talk offline when we're when you're going to come back for for part two. And I absolutely thank you for that because, like say, there's so much stuff that we haven't covered.
01:05:09
Lee Hatfield
Will you stop being such an adventurous and busy person? Because it's like it's given me all this all this information that I can ask you
01:05:20
Dr. Ciaran O'Keeffe
Brilliant. Well, no, we should. We would just look forward to part two. I think that's the advantage, isn't it? So, yeah, no, it's been it's been brilliant.
01:05:25
Lee Hatfield
That sounds... That would be great. Yeah, i like I say, I've thoroughly enjoyed it. I know it's getting late. Your neck of the woods is almost bedtime. So you have a great what's left of your evening.
01:05:36
Lee Hatfield
Enjoy your wine. And no doubt we'll speak again soon.
01:05:38
Dr. Ciaran O'Keeffe
Fabulous.
01:05:40
Lee Hatfield
Okay.
01:05:40
Dr. Ciaran O'Keeffe
Yes, look forward to it, Lee. Cheers. Bye-bye.
01:05:43
Lee Hatfield
Take care. Thanks. Bye-bye.