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Shattering Established Paradigms in Science, Medicine, Life and Beyond w/ Mark Gober
192 Plays1 year ago
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Mark Gober is the author of “An End to Upside Down Thinking” (2018), which won the IPPY award for best science book of the year. He is also the author of “An End to Upside Down Living” (2020), “An End to Upside Down Liberty” (2021), “An End to Upside Down Contact” (2022), “An End to the Upside Down Reset” (2023), and “An End to Upside Down Medicine” (2023); and he is the host of the podcast “Where Is My Mind?” (2019).
Additionally, he serves on the board of Apollo 14 astronaut Edgar Mitchell’s Institute of Noetic Sciences. Previously, Gober was a partner at Sherpa Technology Group in Silicon Valley and worked as an investment banking analyst with UBS in New York.
He has been named one of IAM’s Strategy 300: The World’s Leading Intellectual Property Strategists. Gober graduated magna cum laude from Princeton University, where he wrote an award-winning thesis on Daniel Kahneman’s Nobel Prize–winning “Prospect Theory” and was elected a captain of Princeton’s Division I tennis team.
Connect with Mark:
Website: https://markgober.com/
Books: https://markgober.com/books/
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/markgober_author/
Podcast: https://markgober.com/podcast/
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Transcript
Introduction and Book Promotions
00:00:00
Speaker
Hey folks, welcome back to Connected Minds, Christian Jornoff here. Quick reminder, my latest book, How to Actually Live Longer, Volume 1 is out now. If you haven't got yourself a copy, please get yourself a copy, Live Longer.
Introducing Mark Gober and His Work
00:00:13
Speaker
Today's guest is Mark Gober. He is pretty exceptional. He's the author of six books that he has written in the space of about five years. The first one was An End to Upside Down Thinking in 2018, which won the IPPY Award for Best Science Book of the Year. He's also the author
00:00:35
Speaker
of an end to upside down living, an end to upside down liberty, an end to upside down contact, an end to the upside down reset, and an end to upside down medicine, which he published in late 2023. So that was quite a mouthful. That's a lot of different books. He's also the host of the podcast Where Is My Mind?
00:01:00
Speaker
and he has served on the board of Apollo 14 astronaut Edgar Mitchell's Institute of Noetic Sciences since 2019. The rest of the bio will be in the description mark. Thank you so much for joining us. Thanks so much for having me.
00:01:16
Speaker
You're pretty young, bro. I'm not going to ask you on air. I'm 38. I'm 38 as well. Cool. Nice. Jesus, you've done a lot in a very short space of time.
Mark's Journey from Nihilism to Spirituality
00:01:32
Speaker
What got you started on the path?
00:01:35
Speaker
I was working in Silicon Valley. My background is in business. I worked in investment banking in New York and then moved to a firm that was first in Boston, then the majority of my time in Silicon Valley, advising technology-focused companies basically. I had a worldview at the time because I thought this is what science taught us, which is that we live in a universe that's fundamentally random and meaningless.
00:01:56
Speaker
And that when we die, that's the end of our consciousness. And I had this nihilistic worldview, basically that there's no real meaning to my existence. So I was on a treadmill. And I felt that treadmill after just trying to strive so much and trying to achieve over and over again, and then coming back to a baseline. So I felt really lost.
00:02:14
Speaker
in many ways. But then I also came across podcasts for the first time that challenged my worldview. I just kept hearing pieces of evidence that contradicted what I thought was the nature of reality. So then I started to read books and podcasts, excuse me, books and scientific papers. I was just shocked to learn that there was like credible evidence from the US government, declassified documents. The University of Virginia has a division of perceptual studies. It looks at near-death experiences and things like that. The Institute of Noetic Sciences, which you mentioned I'm on the board of,
00:02:44
Speaker
statistically studying the reality of telepathic communications, mind matter interactions. I was just blown away. So long story short, that propelled me on a journey just to want to understand what was going on. And here we are today. And what the fuck is going on? If you don't mind me asking?
00:03:01
Speaker
I think the more I learn, the more I really don't know. But I do think that there's more to reality than meets the naked eye, meaning I don't really like the word spiritual because it can turn people off. But I think science points us toward a nature of reality that has inherently spiritual qualities, meaning that a human being is not just a sack of meat, that there is an essence to us that transcends the body. And that idea alone just opens doors to what might be going on in the world.
00:03:30
Speaker
All right, I'm just going to throw this one at you just for fun. What do you think is the meaning of life?
Life's Purpose: Evolution and Growth
00:03:39
Speaker
My tentative answer today is that it is about evolution, that we are growing and learning.
00:03:49
Speaker
on a level of our essence, if you want to call it a soul that transcends the body. And that's happening collectively through each of our individual souls in this civilization and probably others that exist, including other dimensions of existence. So that evolution can be moving toward a place of what some would call love and compassion to a place of discernment to be able to see through the wolf and sheep's clothing.
00:04:15
Speaker
to work through our own traumas and then to be the best version of ourselves that we can be because it seems like each person here has unique qualities and ways that we can contribute to life in just very different ways. And our job seems to be to evolve to the extent that we can be the best version of that vessel. Yeah, it does seem like
00:04:35
Speaker
We, from an early age, we tend to want to improve things or acquire things or acquire skills. So it does seem like the human nature is to develop further.
00:04:49
Speaker
Everything seems that way. I mean, even when I look at the most, the darkest times of my life or the most challenging struggles, they ended up leading to something beneficial in the end because there was growth that came out of it. And I like in this too, because I was a competitive tennis player growing up. I was the captain of tennis team at Princeton. So like that was a huge part of my life. And I remember often the pain of working out and training led me to be a better tennis player. So there was this paradox of
00:05:15
Speaker
suffering, it was suffering on the one hand, but on the other hand, it actually improved me and it made me grow. So I take that analogy and that metaphor to other areas of life too.
00:05:26
Speaker
All right, so let's talk about your latest book.
Rethinking Health and Disease
00:05:29
Speaker
I mean, you have such a diverse body of work that, like I said earlier, before we started recording, it's challenging to even know where to start. But because it's your latest book, this probably will be freshest in your mind and it's kind of right up my alley. So your last book that you published in late 2023 is An End to Upside Down Medicine. And just to give the listeners a little bit of a taste,
00:05:55
Speaker
This book dives into fundamental beliefs about health and disease. These beliefs are so fundamental, in fact, that most of us probably haven't thought to question them. For example, do bacteria cause disease, or are they part of the body's cleanup crew that appears at the scene of underlying toxicity or injury? Do researchers follow the scientific method when they claim... I lost my place, crap.
00:06:20
Speaker
When they claim to isolate viruses and show that they cause disease in their hosts, how are studies conducted that allegedly demonstrate the transmission of germs from sick people to healthy people? How do long-term health outcomes differ between vaccinated and unvaccinated populations? Controversial.
00:06:43
Speaker
All right, let's start with the first sort of thing. How broken is science today, would you say? Very broken. And I feel like I have just scratched the surface. So many things that I just took for granted. So my journey started with consciousness in the brain. And I always thought, well, the reason that we have conscious experience is because there's a lot of brain activity.
00:07:11
Speaker
and chemical collectivity happening inside of our skull. And look, if you damage the part of the brain that's responsible for vision, there's a corresponding change in the way you see the world through your eyes. So I thought it was very clear that consciousness comes from and is exclusively produced by the brain.
00:07:28
Speaker
The problem with that line of thinking is that it's engaging in a potential fallacy, which some would say is correlation does not imply causation necessarily. And this applies to medicine, which we'll talk about, but applies to consciousness too, and probably many other areas.
00:07:44
Speaker
where we observe something and then we jump to a cause without looking at other possibilities. So how else could we explain the fact that brain activity is related to our conscious experience, but maybe brain activity isn't causing it? Well, if the brain is like an antenna receiver or a transceiver or a transducer or a filtering mechanism,
00:08:03
Speaker
Sure, then the way your brain is operating would affect your consciousness, but your brain's not the origin of your consciousness. So to give a very crude metaphor, imagine you're watching TV and it's picking up a signal from an antenna. So you're watching a television show and then you take a hammer and smash the antenna. All of a sudden, the TV show that you're watching, it's scratchy on the screen. It's not clear.
00:08:25
Speaker
It's because the apparatus that was responsible for processing the signal has been damaged. But the signal itself is still coming through. It's just not being processed. That could be something like what's going on with the brain. But many of us, myself included, jumped to this other conclusion. Brain activity, consciousness, there must be a causal relationship there.
00:08:45
Speaker
There's so many other examples with regard to medicine. So a lot of people get sick in the same place at the same time with similar symptoms, and we say, oh, they caught something. They caught a microscopic bug that went from one person to the other, and it caused these physical symptoms that we see. We create a whole animation in our mind of how this happens, and we jump to the conclusion of what the cause is, when in reality, there are many other possible causes. What were they similarly exposed to? Was there a toxin in the space that they were exposed to?
00:09:14
Speaker
Was there a similar emotional trauma that they were exposed to? What about EMFs? What about electricity? The list could go on and on. So this is, I think, an approach that needs to be applied to every area of science, because we get stuck in a model, it seems, a model of the way reality works from a scientific perspective. Then we take new observations and retrofit it into that old model, presuming and presupposing that the model's correct in the first place. And that's a dangerous place to be, because if the model's wrong, then maybe those new observations
00:09:43
Speaker
would fit into another model better. Right. Exactly. And this model also probably just a coincidence that it allows certain companies that create various symptom masking chemical concoctions to make billions and trillions of dollars. But that's probably just coincidence, right? Probably coincidence.
The COVID-19 Debate and Scientific Methods
00:10:05
Speaker
There just happens to be this incentive for certain models to be in place because then they create the need for certain products.
00:10:11
Speaker
Yeah. So in terms of infection, you've probably looked at a bunch of the research, right? Yes. So do we have actual hard evidence that any
00:10:34
Speaker
quote-unquote pathogen actually is pathogenic in terms of like cox postulates or something at least approaching that sort of thing. Right, so does a microscopic entity cause disease on healthy tissue basically and can it be transmitted from person to person?
00:10:53
Speaker
I mean, I would have thought that that was an easy question to answer before I started researching. Like, obviously, it must be the case that this has been shown scientifically using the scientific method. And what I would say now is that maybe those studies exist, but there are a lot of researchers who have been looking for a number of years. And when they look back at all the fundamental studies, they don't find that to be true. So that doesn't mean that path that microscopic organisms don't exist. So for example, there's no denying that bacteria exist. But
00:11:22
Speaker
We see, so one of Koch's first postulate, and this is how, this is basically to demonstrate transmission. It's a, it's a very clear method where first you want to see that this alleged pathogen, the, the microbe only shows up in sick people, not healthy people. That's problematic for bacteria to begin with because like E. coli, for example, you could have an E. coli infection and it's also existing in healthy people. So bacteria are problematic for that reason among others, but then you want to be, you want to show.
00:11:52
Speaker
You want to be able to introduce that pathogen into a healthy subject and then show that the symptoms emerge in that previously healthy subject and then re-isolate that pathogen. So these are the steps. So you need to isolate the thing first, bring it into a healthy person, show the symptoms and then re-isolate. Super simple.
00:12:12
Speaker
And over and over again, that seems to be problematic. So with regard to viruses, which we can go into if you want, the notion of isolation using the traditional definition of the term, which means to separate from all other things. In virology, they use the word isolation differently, which is the problem, but they don't actually separate it from other things because of the way they've been doing virology since 1954, the key enders and people study. So that's a problem because if you don't have an isolated
00:12:38
Speaker
variable to introduce, you don't actually know what's making people sick. And then also the way that the transmission studies are done typically is many of them are with animals and they inject an unpurified sample, not just the alleged virus into the animal, which is a totally unnatural means. They might inject it into the brain, into the trachea. There are many studies I mentioned in the book. And then sometimes the animals have symptoms and you're like, well, maybe it was because you injected them with something and they are often not running the brains.
00:13:06
Speaker
It's like, well, what if you injected water in the brain? Would that cause a problem? Water in the trachea. So they're not doing those sorts of things. They're not following the scientific method in many cases. And I was just shocked. So was, so, all right, I'm gonna, I know a lot of my listeners already know this, but was, what was the COVID-19 alleged virus? How was that isolated, purified and identified?
00:13:35
Speaker
There's a woman named Christine Massey who along with her colleagues has been submitting freedom of information requests to government organizations all over the world. At this moment, she's done this and her colleagues with over 200 organizations, including the CDC in 40 countries.
00:13:53
Speaker
And every time when she asks for the isolation of SARS-CoV-2, the virus that allegedly causes COVID-19, isolation, again, meaning separation from other things, not introducing it into a cell culture first, which is a bunch of other cellular material, she gets the same response, which is they don't have any records. So that would imply that I guess COVID-19 could come from a virus, but it has not been established yet using the scientific method. And if that's the case, that COVID-19
00:14:22
Speaker
is not caused by a virus, then what is it? And the answer that I often get talking to various people and listening to various doctors is that we don't know exactly what it is, but it could be multifactorial. Many of the symptoms are pretty nonspecific. They're associated with flu-like symptoms that we've seen in other times. Certainly something more significant seemed to go on in many cases with people, and there were a lot of deaths. But why that happened? I mean, there was a ton of fear put out. There was a lot of isolation in the world. We don't know what's going on in terms of toxicity because often it's invisible.
00:14:52
Speaker
what's in the air, what's elsewhere, electromagnetism. There are just many factors that haven't been explored because those possibilities aren't often funded. So I think the short answer is I personally don't feel like I understand what COVID-19 is. The symptoms have emerged for sure, but the cause seems unclear. Yeah.
00:15:13
Speaker
So back in early 2022, I was sick for like 10 days. It was bad, but we just had a baby. So she was about four months at the time. And my wife was sick for about a week, really bad.
00:15:27
Speaker
And I was like 10 days, but it was because we were moving house. So I was like sick and I was just taking aspirants and putting furniture together and working through the sweats and all that stuff. So I extended my illness because of basically my pigheadedness, but it was bad. I was coughing for days. It's so hard that my head was throbbing, right? And I was like, we weren't around anybody to be infected, but
00:15:56
Speaker
Even my wife notices and she's not like mega into the conspiracies and stuff, but even today we're like, yeah, there's constantly spraying up in the skies above us. And we're a tiny village in Portugal. So yes, it's happening everywhere, especially the big cities. So God knows.
00:16:13
Speaker
Could it be something that was sprayed? But my personal sort of less thin foil, hatty version is we're sleep deprived, high cortisol stress because of, you know, not being sleep deprived and stressed over like looking after a new kid that you just got.
00:16:29
Speaker
So that cortisol is immunosuppressive and maybe that, and obviously we're making worse choices in terms of food, we weren't eating as well. So that could have lowered the immune system and that could have maybe caused us to be more susceptible to something. And then, but here's the thing. So my wife was like, I think that was COVID. I'm like, maybe that was COVID.
00:16:56
Speaker
I don't believe in COVID, maybe I was COVID sure, but she's like, no, it could have been COVID. I'm like, okay, but hold on. So we have this super, super nasty thing. You had it. I had it, but a tiny little four month year old baby didn't get it. And she's like, and I'm not like ripping on my wife or anything. It's just funny. She's like, well, maybe she got antibodies to it from my breast milk. I'm like, also,
00:17:18
Speaker
She got the antibodies to it from your breast milk, but you didn't get the antibodies that you made for her in your breast milk and you still got sick. So this is kind of my way to bring her around to the myth of contagion, basically. Dr. Tom Cowan, who's been speaking about this topic for years now, he calls it inventive reasoning, where we come up with a model
00:17:40
Speaker
and then invent things around it to explain the observations. And it sounds like that's what your wife was doing. That's what many doctors are doing. They try to retrofit the observations into the worldview, whereas maybe it was not a contagious bug in the way that we typically think of a pathogen doing it, and there could be many other factors. There's another factor that I didn't mention that I talk about in the book. It could be a kind of a bio resonance that we don't really understand, an energetic thing, which
00:18:06
Speaker
doesn't explain why your child didn't get it. But we also don't understand how resonance works. It could be that certain frequencies match in ways we don't understand. And I talk about evidence that there is an interconnectedness that we don't see with the eyes. And that could play a role too, where you're actually picking something up, but it's not a physical thing. It's energetic.
00:18:24
Speaker
Yeah. Do you know the author Arthur Furstenberg? Yes. So he wrote the Invisible Rainbow. He was talking about those early studies and so on where they were kind of spitting in each other's mouths and they couldn't get people to infect. But he was talking about, and Tom Cowan was talking about these quote unquote pandemics like the Spanish flu and so on.
00:18:48
Speaker
They seem to occur after an increase in the electrification systems, so telegraph and so on and so forth. Could it be some type of 5G systems that were starting to get
00:19:04
Speaker
rolled out, that could be. But what I think is in terms of what Furstenberg was talking about is that flu type stuff, it didn't affect very young people and very old people. So if we look at, if the flu-like symptoms are
00:19:23
Speaker
something like you are detoxing, let's say it's a detox reaction, so the all the coughing and the sputum and all the stuff that's kind of excreting stuff, the high temperature is making the cellular water less viscous so it can, you know, the gunk can come out, quote unquote, maybe first of all, babies don't have, they haven't had decades of accumulated toxins, and then maybe older people
00:19:48
Speaker
Their vitality is so low that they cannot muster up, they don't have the energetic reserve to do that. So I think that's kind of my theories around why some people get sick and other people don't get sick. And then a healthier person will get sick at times and a less healthy person is like, I haven't been sick in two years. Maybe they cannot muster up that sort of
00:20:11
Speaker
the power that needed to do all that detoxing work. That's a really interesting hypothesis. And then at least with regard to children, maybe older people too, maybe there's less of a fear of death if someone's older and approaching death, and then a younger child doesn't have the ability to conceptualize it. So the psychological issues are different for different age groups. But I think the point here, what's more important, what the answer is, is the process we're going through, which is to explore alternatives. We don't hear that done in the media.
00:20:39
Speaker
You have to stick with the script. And if you don't, then you're a conspiracy theorist, which is completely anti scientific. And then these hypotheses, which are excellent, they need to be tested and funded. Whereas right now, where's the funding going? It's going toward the virus hypothesis and all of the treatments that go toward it, which, like you said, that's where the money is. Yeah, man. So have you have you looked you have looked into the long term health outcomes between vaccinated and unvaccinated populations? Have you?
Vaccination and Health Outcomes Debate
00:21:07
Speaker
Yes, and I reference RFK Jr. and Brian Hooker's book called Vax Unvax, which accumulates the studies for this because naively, I would have thought, look, if vaccines make people healthier, the CDC and all the organizations would be parading around studies saying, look, we've evaluated health outcomes.
00:21:26
Speaker
And if you're a part of the vaccinated group, you're going to be healthier in every way. That means you're not going to get the disease that you're vaccinated against, but also by the way, your cancer outcomes, autism, heart disease, and every other thing is at least as good, if not better than the unvaccinated group.
00:21:41
Speaker
That's what you'd expect, but that's not the case. What RFK Jr. and his co-author found, they found many studies showing that the vaccinated groups ended up with more health problems and not just correlated to the thing they were vaccinated against. It might be they end up with more eczema or more heart issues and they go through study by study. That's just one example.
00:22:04
Speaker
I think very damning to the vaccine industry because it seems like it's being concealed and that would be important information to know, especially given that in the US, for example, the number of vaccines for children has gone way up over the last few decades. Yeah, man. I don't know if you know, my first book was on autism.
00:22:22
Speaker
So I actually work with families with autistic kids, not just with autistic kids, but just kids with any other kind of health stuff going on. And it's a very touchy topic, but I actually interviewed Dr. Brian Hooker on my podcast years ago. I think it was maybe 2021 even, so a long time ago. And
00:22:45
Speaker
Yeah, at that time he had published one, recently had published a paper where the longer term outcomes for vaccinated kids, where they were developing more autoimmune type stuff, immune dysregulation type stuff. And then Dr. Tom Cowan, he has that book, Vaccines Autoimmunity and the Changing Nature of Childhood Illness that I've bought maybe
00:23:12
Speaker
close to 10 copies probably by now, and I've given them away to friends and as gifts. And he really kind of also lays out the fact that they might, but here's what I'm sort of wondering. There does seem like those kids get less of the quote unquote childhood illnesses that they're getting vaccinated for. How do we, yes, they might develop autoimmune stuff later on, asthma and so on, but how do we reconcile
00:23:40
Speaker
The fact that I don't know if you looked at the data that they do actually vaccinate kids get less sick with those things less often. Or is that even the case? Yeah. So there's a book called Dissolving Illusions, which has looked at vaccines and things like it. And they have some amazing data on
00:24:00
Speaker
looking at the mortality rates of certain illnesses and then when the vaccine was introduced. And in many, many cases that they show the vaccine was introduced after the mortality rates were falling. So I include those in the book, but at the website, dissolving illusions.com, they have a bunch of these charts and all the sources for it. But I think the point you're raising, I've heard from a number of other people too, is that the vaccines do seem to stop symptoms. Now that raises a question about mechanism for me, because based on what I've looked at with regard to
00:24:27
Speaker
pathogens or alleged pathogens in the case of viruses, they're not causing disease. And so with a vaccine that's supposed to counteract a virus, if the virus isn't there, what is the vaccine actually doing?
00:24:40
Speaker
Perhaps the vaccine has an ability to shut down the body's ability to detoxify. And therefore the symptoms don't emerge in terms of the disease that you're trying to prevent against. But then it's just suppressing the underlying toxicity, which could lead to health problems later down the road. That's my guess. That's exactly what I was thinking, bro. And then there's another thing that could be a similar factor. It's actually the same thing when you think about it. A lot of these toxins,
00:25:08
Speaker
not just in the environment, but the things that they put in the vaccines and so on, the metals and stuff like that, they are immunotoxic, right? So that can suppress the immune system. And then over time, that dysregulation of the immune system messengers, that dysregulation can then make predispose you to more autoimmune type stuff. I think that could be a good hypothesis. Yeah. Yeah. It's a really good point.
00:25:36
Speaker
So damn, that was, that was heavy. How do we, where do you take
Reevaluating Disease Causation
00:25:46
Speaker
it from here? I mean, what else do you discuss in the book that we could discuss? Yeah. Well, I go through alleged infectious disease after alleged infectious disease. So like Spanish flu, rabies, chicken pox, all these things that are assumed to be infectious and show that number one, the virus hasn't been isolated in every case.
00:26:03
Speaker
And then, and secondly, there are other explanations. So you mentioned Spanish flu and they're the Rosenau experiments that were run where people were coughing in each other's faces to try to show that there was transmission of like the deadliest pandemic at the time, and they weren't able to transmit anything. So what I was trying to do is to show that we actually don't have good evidence for transmission. And then the studies that were done, like I mentioned before, they were poorly constructed.
00:26:31
Speaker
And that's just, I mean, if your audience is new to that, like I was really new to it, it's mind blowing because then you rethink everything. Now, when I think of a disease, we have all these labels of this condition, which seems to imply that there is a single solution to that condition. When in fact, I look at it more now, like there are just symptoms that would be a more accurate way to describe it without putting bias. This person has these things emerging and that the cause could be multifactorial every time. Yeah.
00:27:01
Speaker
And the solution is always just help the person get as healthy as they can. That is the solution. Right. So that's, that comes down to nutrition. It comes down to psycho-spiritual issues. What are the subconscious beliefs? What are the stressors going on? It comes down to radiation that people are exposed to, EMFs and so forth. And so it's these other, and of course, toxicity too.
00:27:26
Speaker
What are the environmental toxins people are exposed to? But those are not typically the first lines of thought when we see someone getting sick. We want to point to an invisible pathogen because it creates this war-like mentality, the invisible enemy. We see this with climate change too, human-caused climate change. It's this notion that there is this enemy and we have to do everything we can to stop it, but it's this amorphous thing that we don't really understand. And there are people in white lab coats who do understand it, so we have to listen to them and then listen to the remedies that they propose.
00:27:52
Speaker
And in terms of bacteria, now I definitely, I feel like bacteria can be problematic. What's your take on bacteria? I know viruses, I don't even believe they exist to be honest, but bacteria we know exist. Yeah, this was a tough one for me, especially talking to doctors because there's clear, what we would call infection where we can find large accumulations of bacteria associated with some kind of pain or sickness. And we know bacteria can emit toxins so they can, they can have a by-product that is toxic.
00:28:22
Speaker
But what I found, and then also Christine Massey, who's submitting these freedom of information requests, she's starting to ask now of showing alleged bacterial infections that they follow Koch's postulates and things like that, that they're actually causing disease against healthy tissue. And she's getting responses saying, no, that hasn't been shown. We don't have evidence for that.
00:28:42
Speaker
So the big question is, are they instigators, the bacteria that could they cause disease on healthy tissue? So I had two doctors read my book before it was published, Dr. Andy Kaufman and Dr. Mark Bailey. These are traditionally trained doctors who have now gone to the side where they're questioning everything, virology and germ theory. And so I was asking Dr. Mark Bailey about bioweapons. How does that work? And he said, well, theoretically, you could have a combination of a certain type of bacteria and chemicals.
00:29:12
Speaker
So the chemicals would cause damage the tissue and then the bacteria would proliferate in great numbers but the bacteria on their own would not be proliferating unless there is dead and dying tissue that they would be decomposing because that's the terrain model would say that the bacteria have this natural ability to.
00:29:27
Speaker
Help get rid of dead and dying tissue, but if you don't have those problems or the underlying toxicity The bacteria would not be problematic which would explain why? Many bacteria show up in healthy people, but there's no problem in some cases They can there can be an overgrowth and that leads us to the question of well What is going on in the in the terrain of the body the environment of the body? That's leading to that overgrowth and it could be an underlying toxicity whereby the bacteria they're a secondary effect But they're not the underlying root cause of the problem. They just show up
00:29:57
Speaker
Like firefighters at the scene of a fire. The firefighters didn't cause the fire, but they're there to put it out. Yeah. I remember like maybe a month or two ago, I saw some study that I saved where apparently candida.
00:30:14
Speaker
can absorb metals when there's an overgrowth of bacteria. It could be because they're there to protect from the toxic metals. And I know that also parasites can do that.
00:30:29
Speaker
And that's why you don't want to just, if you think you have parasites or let's say you have a test for parasites, you don't want to just go boom, carpet bomb your gut one time. And because that can spill out a lot of stuff that could potentially make it into the bloodstream, cause a lot of immunoreactivity, inflammation, so on. So I think there's definitely a lot of
00:30:53
Speaker
strength behind the terrain stuff, but in terms of actual research, is any being done or has any been done on the terrain side of things? This is one of the issues because the terrain side proposes alternative hypotheses for symptoms, basically. And that's just not funded quite as much. The pathogenic model is the one that is being funded.
00:31:14
Speaker
The best that I've seen so far is, I mean, I'm sure there are studies, but the freedom of information requests are pretty explicit because it lays out exactly what's being looked for, very logical requests. And then these organizations are replying with, they're unable to give responses to it. So that's a big problem. And then I also wanted to just touch on what you said about parasites and like in fungi and bacteria under the terrain model, which I agree there should be more studies on this. But the implication as I see it is if you get rid of those things that are decomposing or detoxifying the body,
00:31:44
Speaker
then you might actually be just causing the body to hold more toxins. So in the end, you're going to have more of a problem. So the root cause would be to get rid of the toxicity, and then those overgrowth would go away. To me, clinically, I'm not a doctor. This is not medical advice. This would be a hypothesis to look into, is that treat the underlying toxicity first. That's the terrain approach. And then the other problems will go away.
00:32:07
Speaker
Yeah, I definitely think we have to see the allopathic ways very mechanistic in terms of let's suppress something here to dam up the river up here. Nevermind what happens with this damming up of the river, what is going to flood here, as long as the flow here stops, right? So when I work with clients, we always try to do a very comprehensive approach. So we are working on detoxification.
00:32:35
Speaker
and improving gut health at the same time. But it's a gradual process. Mostly the body does the work. We just have to remove impediments and then add the things that are generally missing from the diet. So I think that is the solution. The problem is you can't just go in for seven minutes, get your prescription and then go pay. And it seems like also we've been taught as a society to go for our symptom masking band-aid as opposed to
00:33:04
Speaker
Getting a solution a full solution which takes months of effort and then lifestyle changes. So that's a big problem I've noticed. Yeah, it's about personal responsibility If you really want to heal the quick solutions don't seem to work And there's also an area that I mentioned in the book and I've been studying more recently.
German New Medicine and Emotional Conflicts
00:33:20
Speaker
It's called German new medicine. Are you familiar with it? Yeah Yeah, so the basic concept and I would love to see more science behind it but that the guy's name was dr. Hammer he found that
00:33:31
Speaker
in the late 1970s that when people had an emotional conflict shock, that's the terminology. So some, some kind of conflict that emerged. So this was psychological. There was a lesion in the brain that he could find on CAT scans that would correspond to an organ, which would correspond to symptoms. So now they've mapped this out where if you have certain symptoms, they can tell you a German new medicine practitioner, what was the emotional conflict shock you had?
00:33:55
Speaker
that cause the body to manifest these physical symptoms. And then you can work through that. And if you have a chronic illness, that means they're called tracks where you're having basically reminders of that conflict shock, or you're actually having the conflict shock over and over again. So your body is then being shocked, building up cells to be able to deal with the shock. And then the healing phase is when the symptoms emerge. That's actually your body getting rid of the problem. So it changes the order a little bit versus traditional thinking. And then I also looked at
00:34:24
Speaker
like spontaneous healings that really put into question the nature of consciousness and what it means for health. So one example, Anita Morjani, this is a famous case. She had a near-death experience when she was in a coma. She was in TED terminal cancer. And she had this elaborate experience like many people have described throughout history. She encountered her deceased father who she felt unconditional love for even though they had a problematic relationship while he was alive. She realized things about herself that the way she was thinking about herself was too hard on herself.
00:34:54
Speaker
And she had this realization that the way she thinks affects her body, basically. She came back and then her tumors disappeared. So these cases are not explained through traditional reductionistic perspective. So we're talking about whether it's German new medicine or otherwise, something that is psychological.
00:35:15
Speaker
something in consciousness that's shifting and then physically there's a shift. And I think for the reductionistic way we look at the world that that doesn't compute because we like to see billiard balls. One hits the next hits the next. We can see sequence whereas this other stuff is abstract. What do you mean? Your consciousness shifted then tumors disappeared. But that I think is that's the next frontier.
00:35:35
Speaker
Yeah, man. Have you ever looked into the, I forget the name of the dude. I read his book like five years ago. He is a medical doctor, I think from Peruvian origin. And he started going to Peru to learn with the shamans and then he would sit at ayahuasca ceremonies. And he was, in the book he
00:35:57
Speaker
detailed some, I don't want to say spontaneous healings, but like a lot of stuff got resolved for people by just through the, after a few ayahuasca journeys. So he discussed the study of psychoneuroimmunoendocrinology where, you know, obviously the psyche
00:36:17
Speaker
affects the nervous system, which affects the immune system, which affects the hormonal system. So through that, I think through a lot of these near-death experiences or various sort of spiritual experiences, you might be up on a mountain or even in a nice cathedral, you can actually have these spontaneous spiritual experiences that then affect your
00:36:41
Speaker
nervous system, which then can, for example, just as an example, they can lower various stress hormones. And once those stress hormones are lowered, the immune system can come back into play because adrenaline, cortisol, these stress hormones, they're immunosuppressive because when you're in a stress state, you have to fight or flee.
00:37:03
Speaker
So you don't need your immune system. You don't need your digestion. When you lower those stress hormones through any mechanism, then the immune system can start playing, be a dominant player. And the immune system being active is required for cancer cells to be disposed of, right? Bro, I totally believe this stuff can happen.
00:37:24
Speaker
Yeah, actually, there is a great resource at the Institute of Noetic Sciences website that documents spontaneous healings. And I mentioned this in my book, like case after case, that are just anomalies for the mainstream paradigm. Yeah, and it's like, I'm starting to look at disease or what we call disease or symptoms. These are the body's way of telling us there's something we have to look at.
00:37:48
Speaker
to heal. And when it gets worse and worse, it says this is a serious thing that you need to correct in your life, basically, whether it's physical toxicity in some way, or psycho spiritual toxicity that you need to work on. And an allopathic model is totally the opposite, just get rid of the symptoms and then go to work the next day. That's not to say that there, there isn't a place for that. Because sometimes you need to make the symptoms calm down so you can work on the other things.
00:38:09
Speaker
And even in German new medicine, there is integration with that of, you know, I've talked to practitioners where they say, yeah, just handle the symptoms now, but you know, the psychological route, take care of that separately. So there's an integration of these things that needs to happen. Whereas the allopathic model is the predominant go to it's, it should be the exception, but it's become the rule. Yeah.
Impact of the 1910 Flexner Report on Medicine
00:38:30
Speaker
And they have the goal to call the rest of it alternative, even though this, this has been around for like a hundred, 200 years.
00:38:36
Speaker
Well, the Flexner report in 1910, this was supported by the Rockefeller Foundation, the Carnegie Foundation. Anyone can read this, it's available. It changed the whole medical system in the West that moved us toward allopathic stuff, moved away from osteopathic treatments, homeopathic, more holistic things. So now the way that we've been trained medically, the doctors, and the way that we've been trained societally is a result of that. Okay. So if COVID wasn't an actual virus, what was the whole thing about, bro?
00:39:08
Speaker
I tend to think it was about controlling the population ultimately. And I think people, like I said, people got sick and died. So maybe there's an element of, there's a reality to it, but we've never seen a case where the whole world was locked down in unison like this. I mean, that was just kind of amazing where overnight there was a consensus
00:39:26
Speaker
And now you're going to be locked in your homes and we're going to tell you who's an essential worker or not. And it was an excuse to enact authoritarian things. And that's how it typically works with an alleged emergency. Then there's a savior that comes in to be able to help you. And in the process, they take away rights. So it's like a trick that we see with governments. We've seen it throughout history in different ways. And this was the health version of it. That's how I see it.
00:39:54
Speaker
So I assume in your book and then to the upside down reset, you dig into these topics a lot more, right?
The Great Reset and Voluntaryism
00:40:04
Speaker
Yes. So in 2020, a few months after everything happened with the lockdowns, Klaus Schwab and then Prince Charles announced the great reset. And then Klaus Schwab, who's the head of the World Economic Forum, along with one of his colleagues shortly thereafter published a book called COVID-19 the Great Reset.
00:40:22
Speaker
and the very explicit that covid nineteen presents an opportunity to reset and reshape the world of course they present in a very positive way that this is gonna make us more compassionate and things that sound really nice but what i focus on in that book and into the upside down reset is on basically the weaponization of compassion work where they can make things sound really nice
00:40:43
Speaker
but they actually are a wolf in sheep's clothing. So it requires discernment to see through it. And like every part of the great reset is like that, whether it's trying to treat COVID, whether it's about equality, quote unquote, whether it's about having world governments get together and consolidating power, whether it's about fears of climate change, it's always something that sounds really nice, but it ends up being authoritarian. Yeah.
00:41:07
Speaker
So do you talk about some solution, because the, an end to it, me sort of must entail some solutions. What sort of, what do you offer the reader? I think it starts with the individual every time, just like with health.
00:41:22
Speaker
that we have to take personal responsibility, that it spreads out to families and communities, and then there is either a resistance or just a parallelization, if that's a word, a parallel society that forms where people are doing things from a more liberated perspective and just not listening to the authoritarian stuff.
00:41:39
Speaker
So I really like a framework from Ken Wilber, who's a spiritual philosopher. He says there are these lines of development as we evolve and they're relatively independent, meaning you could be really good on one thing, but not as good on the other. And we need to get good on all of them. The summary is it's waking up, cleaning up, growing up and showing up.
00:41:56
Speaker
So waking up is understanding the truth, having maybe experiences where we've experienced the truth of reality, could be spiritual or otherwise, but that's not sufficient because you could do that. But then you have all this trauma that you haven't worked on in yourself and all your subconscious beliefs that are messing you up. So there's the cleaning up process, which is, can be very challenging and uncomfortable. Then there's the growing up process, which is to acknowledge the reality of evil and deceptiveness in the world and to mature enough to know that those things go on.
00:42:23
Speaker
But then you could have all those things and say, well, I understand what's happening and I'm going to sit on the couch and not do anything. And that's where showing up comes in, which means there's something we've got to do about it. And for each person, it could be different. It could just be like some people taking care of their family differently. For other people, it could be doing podcasts like this. But there's got to be a showing up in the world, a non-passivity to try to enact this. So watching Netflix on the weekend, does that count?
00:42:49
Speaker
I'm going to try to find a reason where it might count, where maybe sometimes need to recharge and it could help you then show up better if you have a little bit of a break, but probably just doing nothing is not going to be good in the end. Yeah, man, for sure, bro. Before that, you also wrote an end to Upside Down Liberty, which give the listeners a bit of a taste of that. Yeah.
00:43:16
Speaker
I talk about statism versus voluntaryism in that book. So statism is the way we do government around the world, which is what we have a compulsory political monopoly that has control over a certain jurisdiction. And we're all taught to think and we've grown up thinking that this is an organization that's meant to protect you.
00:43:36
Speaker
Whereas I would look at it now as a predator rather than a protector. And the reason it's inherently a predatory organization is that there is a lack of explicit consent.
00:43:49
Speaker
So let's think about governments as service providers rather than these just benevolent organizations, just a traditional service provider, because that's what they do. They provide legal services, courts, for example, road servicing, you name it, there's things government does. But then there are other service providers in society, like lawyers, investment bankers, doctors, strategy consultants, that's like what I used to do. And what happens with most other traditional service providers is that there is an explicit agreement between the customer
00:44:20
Speaker
and the service provider. The customer hires that provider, and you often sign a contract. It explains exactly what the service provider's gonna do, how you can terminate, what the pricing's gonna be, and so forth. And there are competitors out there that you can go to. With government, we don't have that kind of an explicit contract that both parties have written together and agreed on. So we have this social contract that everyone talks about, including Klaus Schwab. He says we need to revise the social contract. And I'm like, well, I don't remember signing a social contract.
00:44:49
Speaker
And so with government, they can end up doing, imposing things that we didn't explicitly agree to. It's implied because we live on certain land. And that leads to basically every problem you can imagine. The solution that I proposed in the book, which I'm really summarizing many other philosophers like
00:45:03
Speaker
My favorites are Murray Rothbard. The Mises Institute talks a lot about the Austrian School of Economics. They're based in Alabama. But Ludwig von Mises was an economist who talked about this. Larkin Rose, who wrote The Most Dangerous Superstition. But the idea here is we just need to privatize everything.
00:45:20
Speaker
there should be no public sector if everything were privatized that just means in government we have human beings providing services and in the private sector we have human beings providing services the only difference is government services those human beings have special privileges where they can do a bad job and they're gonna collect tax dollars no matter what where as in the free market if you do a bad job guess what's people gonna go elsewhere.
00:45:41
Speaker
So those mechanics in theory, of course, in theory, we're not there yet, would be a better and freer society because people would be acting under their own volition, but it's not perfect. So it's sort of like a less imperfect solution relative to what we have now, unless and until our consciousness raises collectively, then we could have, it's known as voluntaryism, where every interaction we have is on a fully voluntary basis, where you could have these contractual relationships. You could even have a government, quote unquote, government, but it's providing services, so it could be like a subscription.
00:46:09
Speaker
And guess what? If they do a bad job, people are not going to subscribe. So that's the kind of thought exercise I go through in that book. That's brilliant, bro. Have you been to anarchopulco? I haven't been there, but I've spoken at the Mises Institute's Austrian Economics Conference. Yeah, I think they'll love you at anarchopulco, bro. I was there in February at the 10th, 10th year anniversary. It was pretty cool. Pretty cool.
00:46:35
Speaker
Yeah, you're literally all of these things, you have just someone that's new to all of this stuff that's just woken up. I think if you give them your books, they will probably
00:46:53
Speaker
Know almost everything they need to know just out of to to pick my interest or my to satisfy my curiosity and End to upside-down contact. What's that about?
Exploring Contact with Non-Human Intelligences
00:47:05
Speaker
Mm-hmm. It's about the evidence of contact with non-human intelligences So the subtitle is UFOs aliens and spirits and why their ongoing interaction with human civilization matters So, all right
00:47:23
Speaker
Okay, spirits, bro, I'm gonna have nightmares tonight. Let's talk about spirits. What evidence do we have of this, if any? The way I divide it up in the book is that there is UFO related contact, which is meaning something that's related to an apparent craft.
00:47:44
Speaker
and then other contact that's non-UFO related. And that's more spiritual stuff, which is what I did in my other books like An End to Upside Down Thinking on Consciousness. So I'll give an example. Near-death experiences. Person has little or no brain functioning, and yet they have a lucid experience. This is studied at the University of Virginia. There's a study done by Pym von Lamel, a cardiologist published in the Lancet. This should never happen.
00:48:08
Speaker
elaborate experiences during this time of cardiac arrest or other things. Sometimes people have experiences where they can see things from above their body or hear them.
00:48:18
Speaker
when they're in a place where their brain's not functioning. And then they're resuscitated and they come back and give a perfectly clear view of what happened. These are not hallucinations when they're verified accounts and there's some documented cases of this. So I give that pretext to say that at least some of these experiences are not hallucinations, meaning we need to take seriously what they come back with. And often people come back saying they encountered deceased relatives, spiritual entities, beings of light, they're having contact.
00:48:45
Speaker
Similar to what we hear with psychedelics, for example, Rick Strassman, his book DMT, The Spirit Molecule. People weren't counting enemies all the time. And it's one of the reasons he stopped the studies because he had an ethical issue where it's like, wait, I'm subjecting people to this stuff. Whoa, that's the, and then it's not always a positive experience with these beings. Now,
00:49:03
Speaker
move over to the more UFO side. Dr. John Mack, this was the head of psychiatry at Harvard Pulitzer Prize winner. So like as mainstream as you can be late in his career, he was told, Hey, Dr. Mack, you need to look into these cases of people alleging they were abducted and they had procedures done on them.
00:49:21
Speaker
what Dr. Mack concluded after talking to people, he said, these people had real experiences. So he was a believer by the end that these were legitimate experiences. Interestingly, Rick Strassman's work on DMT, he found very similar things, similar types of abduction experiences, but under the DMT state, whereas John Mack's subjects were not having the DMT state. So these were independent observations of very bizarre things that were
00:49:46
Speaker
corroborating each other. So that's what I go through in the book, these cases where I come to the point that I don't fully understand this, but I don't think we're alone and it might not be physical. Maybe it's multidimensional. Maybe it's physical too.
00:49:58
Speaker
And some of the beings seem to be nefarious, but some of them seem to be really benevolent and want to help. And also this is an ancient phenomenon. So looking back at biblical writings, what we call quote unquote mythologies, if we apply our modern day observations to what they talked about back then, it doesn't sound like myth. It just sounds like they use different words to describe the same thing.
00:50:22
Speaker
So in the end, if David Icke is right, everybody's going to be eating their hat, I think. What's your take on the reptilians and David Icke sort of stuff? Well, I mean, so some of the reptilian stuff, it comes up everywhere. Yeah. There's a study called Free, F-R-E-E, that I cite in the book where they look at contact experiences
00:50:48
Speaker
different types of modalities. And they document the types of entities that are encountered. And there's a whole variety of species. And then there's also the head of an African tribe that David Ike had interviewed. And I quote him in the book. He talked about how their cosmology basically talked about these reptilian type beings. In the Hindu tradition, there are nagas, which are snake-like shapeshifters.
00:51:13
Speaker
So these things are observed by people in different areas independently. And it's hard for us if we haven't had a direct experience of it to like really latch on. But for the people who experience it, there's similar stuff and it's similarly bizarre. Interesting, bro. Like I, you were just
00:51:32
Speaker
one of the most interesting people I've ever spoken to. No word of a lie. Thanks. I think what we have to do is I have to read some of your books and maybe have you come back on again and we can dig in to the nitty gritty a little bit more because hot diggity daffodil bro. Okay, let's just
00:51:56
Speaker
finish up with the
Challenging the Brain-Consciousness Model
00:51:57
Speaker
first book. So that was your debut in 2018. And then to upside down thinking, is that the one where we started in terms of reality isn't what it is. Any other topics in there you want to throw at us? The core idea is trying to
00:52:13
Speaker
to show that the brain does not produce consciousness. And rather, there's a new metaphysical framework needed in which consciousness is like fundamental or something like that. There's a philosopher named Dr. Bernardo Castro, who gives an analogy that I really like it says that all of reality is like a stream of water or waters like consciousness. And each of us is a whirlpool within that stream.
00:52:34
Speaker
So we feel like we're individuals, but we're also interconnected at some other level. And if that were true, imagine if some of the water from my Whirlpool gets into your Whirlpool, that would be like a psychic or a telepathic ability. Similarly, what if my Whirlpool
00:52:47
Speaker
or anyone's whirlpool stops being a whirlpool, delocalizes. That would be like someone's body dying but their consciousness not leaving the stream. It's just transitioning into a new form and could actually potentially recycle into a new whirlpool. That would be like reincarnation. So what I do in the book is I say, look, if there's any single anomaly, like a psychic ability or evidence that consciousness survives when the body dies or reincarnation, if there's even one piece of evidence for one of those things, we can explain it very well by
00:53:16
Speaker
Taking this kind of analogy that consciousness is fundamental which by the way max plonk nobel prize-winning physicist He said I regard consciousness as fundamental. I regard matter as derivative from consciousness That's what he learned in his scientific endeavors. So I said if there's one piece of evidence
00:53:32
Speaker
We have to go more toward a consciousness model rather than it's all material. Consciousness comes from the brain. So the book is piece of evidence after piece of evidence for all kinds of phenomena. So remote viewing, which is the ability to psychically see far away in distance and time that the US government has declassified documents on this. Telepathy, mind to mind communication, precognition, knowing or sensing the future before it happens.
00:53:56
Speaker
psychokinesis, mind-matter interactions, animals who exhibit these abilities, near-death experiences, where you have a lucid consciousness when there's no brain, mediumship, which is communicating with the deceased. There are actually studies at the Windbridge Research Center, five levels of blinding on mediums, and then research at the University of Virginia on children who have memories of a previous life, over 2,500 cases, where sometimes they can find historical records that validate the findings. So what I say is, look at all the evidence, all the peer-reviewed papers, government stuff,
00:54:25
Speaker
If you can't disprove every single one of those, then we've got a problem in our current paradigm. I'm familiar with his work. Yeah. He was actually the very first guest I interviewed on the podcast three years ago and his first book in I think 1990 or 91 was called
00:54:46
Speaker
life cycles, reincarnation and the web of life. So he details, he doesn't detail the accounts. He kind of talks about what's the dude with all the research that did all the reincarnation, children that remember. Ian Stevenson. Ian Stevenson, yeah. So he kind of, he discusses a lot of the stuff in his work. So yeah, that being exposed to that and having him on and really, really his other books, I'm absolutely convinced that
00:55:16
Speaker
we reincarnate. And my personal motto is very similar to what you explained with the stream and the Whirlpools. It's an ocean. Consciousness is the ocean. The universe, the all, is the ocean. And we are waves. So the wave is always water. It surfaces on the water. It appears on the water for a finite amount of time. Then it merges back in. So to me, it feels like
00:55:44
Speaker
My consciousness and your consciousness are the exact same thing. The consciousness of a dog is the same thing. And we all share that. That's kind of the baseline. And then on top of that base, we are just consciousness experiencing itself. And I think
00:56:00
Speaker
Probably why the materialistic dominant paradigm currently wants to push us away from that from a very early age is because if we knew that we are but one consciousness, I think a lot of this division that they used to control us and weaken us by separating us into smaller and smaller groups, that would dissolve.
00:56:25
Speaker
It almost seems like Rudolf Steiner was right that we are kind of, we used to be much more wise and advanced and developed, maybe not technologically, but at least spiritually, spiritually, emotionally, and so on. It seems like we're, it's almost like a wheel that's spinning one direction, and then it's gone the other direction. It seems like we're devolving in terms of consciousness. But maybe that's just because we are in this current time
00:56:51
Speaker
where there's a lot of turmoil because at the start, we also said it seems like we are evolving. So it's a little bit hard to reconcile for me, but maybe you can shed some light. When I wrote the first book and end upside down thinking, I definitely had this conclusion that if we just understood the interconnectedness, if we understood that we were consciousness and the same, even though we're distinct, then the world's problems would dissolve. And I still partially believe it, but then COVID happened. And a lot of people who firmly believe what I just said, where you and I are in agreements,
00:57:21
Speaker
were pushing vaccines, were pushing lockdowns and thought these were all compassionate things. So what I realized is that the consciousness worldview, it promotes compassion and love ultimately, but it has to have discernment with it. So the term I use in my books is compassion with discernment. And often you just have one or the other. You have some people who discern a lot, but they're not compassionate in it where you have people who are super compassionate and they don't want to see the wolf in sheep's clothing. And we need both in order to fully evolve.
00:57:49
Speaker
Love it. Mark, amazing, amazing interview. Tell the listeners where they can find you, your books and how they can connect with you. My website is a good place to start. It's mark gober.com, M-A-R-K-G-O-B-E-R.com. All of my books are on Amazon. They're in hard copy, Kindle and Audible format. I read all the Audibles.
00:58:12
Speaker
And I have a podcast series that goes through consciousness and the brain called Where Is My Mind? It's just eight episodes produced in 2019. It has clips from dozens of interviews I had with people from the University of Virginia, Nobel Prize winner in physics, Brian Josephson. So really credible people looking at reincarnation and psychic abilities. And that's available still on Spotify, Apple Podcast, all the major players. Sweet, we'll link to it. And then final question. So I know
00:58:40
Speaker
You kind of mentioned you're not sure what your next project will be, but what are some ideas floating around in your mind at the moment? Well, I have so many questions still. I mean, the books, like you said, they're intended to be starting points for people and they cite, there's like hundreds of citations so people can learn more, but it's sort of like an introduction to understanding a space. So non-human intelligence, what are people talking about with UFOs? What are people talking about NDEs? And then hopefully the reader can come up with their own conclusions.
00:59:11
Speaker
But it's like one thing leads to the next. So okay, if there are these non human intelligences, what's the real history of the planet? And there are different cosmology is associated with all this stuff. And then what does that imply about how we live life, which I've sort of written about. But there's just all open questions with health and how we treat people and like what we should actually be doing here. So I have these massive questions still.
00:59:35
Speaker
Who are we? Why are we here? What is this place? How did it come to be this way? And then what should we be doing as a result of that? And that can spin into many different areas. And I just don't know where it's going to take me next. Well, I'm looking forward to it because even yesterday I'm here at the computer. I'm just like 10 hours at this computer working on various different things. I'm thinking to myself when I'm let's say 100 or something.
01:00:00
Speaker
Am I gonna regret all this time I spent here? Am I gonna wish I did something else? What the fuck is even my purpose in life? Everyone's like, why am I even here? Is this, am I supposed to be here staring at a computer getting blasted with blue light and breaking my back? Is that really the purpose of life? And some days you just wonder, what is the real reason we are here right now?
01:00:30
Speaker
Well, I can relate very much to what you said. I mean, still today it comes up, but even more when I was working, working all night in investment banking in New York, then working in Silicon Valley around the clock, I didn't have a sense of meaning or purpose. And I can say that when I started getting into the stuff in 2016, things opened up and all of a sudden it felt more and more like I had on purpose. Even if they were still suffering along the way, I had a compass of like, well, I want to keep exploring this.
01:00:55
Speaker
So my hypothesis is that as we align with the truth, this feeling of purpose becomes more consistent because then everything we do is moving toward that truth. The question is, what is the truth we're moving toward? And that's where we're all trying to figure it out. Yeah, I definitely feel at the end of the day, I'm tired, but I feel pretty awesome because I get to work with people, help them with their health journey. So I feel like
01:01:23
Speaker
I'm doing what I'm doing good, right? I feel like that. But sometimes I wonder, is that really the, is there other, you know what I mean? Like, is any of it important, right? Is, is you changing the world
01:01:40
Speaker
Or is that just another deflection from your actual personal journey, personal development? And we were just procrastinating by projecting it. Oh, I'm going to be the savior archetype and help people. And could that be just another way to push off the real work? You know what I mean? That's kind of my question. I totally agree with you. And it's a point I've tried to make in my books, especially with the waking up, cleaning up, growing up, showing up. Some people will say, well, I'm super awake.
01:02:10
Speaker
I know what the reality is. We're all interconnected. And now I'm going to save the world. But then they have the inner work that hasn't been done. I think it all starts with the inner work.
01:02:18
Speaker
it's perfecting the individual. And I talk about this in my second book and end up side down living to be the best version of who we are doing all the cleaning up and everything else. And then what seems to happen is the helping of the world is a byproduct naturally. So when I write these books, it's I'm really curious about shifting my own paradigm and then my life changes. And then I say, I got to share this with people. And then in the process of sharing it and writing these books,
01:02:41
Speaker
the information is like imprinted in my mind because I spent so much time with it and have to back check everything. Because I'm putting out some pretty wild stuff and I have to feel like I'm defending it properly. So then I learned the information better and then I'm a better not only am I improving myself, but then I can share it better to help other people. But it's always started with me. So it's like, yes, helping the world is important. But we we are part of the world. The individual whirlpool or wave is part of the stream or ocean. So you can't ignore yourself.
01:03:09
Speaker
And I think a lot of some teachings say, well, we just have to be of service. Yes. And we have to be of service to ourselves, too. Absolutely. Fill your own cup first. Yeah. Yeah. I actually just last month, I Charlie Robinson's latest book, Hypocrisy. He gave that to me. I retype said it for him. So he's going to be launching that as a second edition in the coming month or two.
01:03:38
Speaker
So just putting it out there, I have a desire to offer myself as a proofreader. If you're looking for proofreaders for your next book, feel free to throw it out, throw it my way. I'd love to be one of those guys. So really looking forward to what the next stage of your sort of journey is as well.
01:04:04
Speaker
I think it's a process of having faith and trust, which I'm still learning because I used to have such a planner's life. I mean, I left my job to pursue this stuff after I wrote my first book and did the podcast. This was late 19, early 2020. And I've been on this journey of writing, not knowing what's next, writing. And each time something unexpected seems to emerge, like I never had an interest in politics.
01:04:25
Speaker
Now I'm writing these highly politically charged books because I thought it was important. So I'm partially talking to myself, but also to your audience that we don't, we always, we don't, we can't always predict how it's going to go. So basically we can project something in our mind, but we have limitations in how we can even imagine things. So I just try to remain open of like the possibilities beyond my imagination sometimes. Love it. Mark, thank you so much for coming on, bro. Thank you so much.