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Bi+ Representation in LGBT+ Charity with Dominic Arnall
3.6k Plays2 years ago
We're all aware of the unfortunate statistics showing that the bisexual community receives a tiny minority of LGBT+ charity resources despite making up a majority of the community itself. But how does that play out and what does it actually mean for Bi+ people?
We chatted about that and more with Dominic Arnall, CEO of “Just Like Us” (an LGBT+ young people’s charity) and the only out bisexual man running a queer charity in the UK. He explained what happens when the “B” is neglected in the non-profit space, why we need resources that are dedicated specifically to the Bi+/fluid community (and for kids especially), and what those programs might look like if they were properly funded and prioritized.
We also discussed the current political climate and the targeting of trans kids, why the “B” & “T” communities are intertwined and benefit by standing up for each other, and how queerness and gender are evolving and being viewed by young people today. We also touched on Dominic’s own bisexual journey, how his marriage and child have intersected with his queerness, and things to consider when coming out as Bi+ in the workplace.
Follow Dominic on Twitter: https://twitter.com/Dominicarnall
Follow Just Like Us on Twitter: https://twitter.com/justlikeusUK
Support Just Like Us: www.justlikeus.org
Two Bi Guys is produced and edited by Rob Cohen
Created by Rob Cohen and Alex Boyd
Logo art by Kaitlin Weinman
Music by Ross Mintzer
We are supported by The Gotham
Made on Zencastr #MadeOnZencastr
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This podcast is sponsored by BetterHelp. Visit betterhelp.com/twobiguys to get 10% off your first month.
We're going on a Bi+ trip to Maine in June 2023! Join the email list to get all the info: https://my.trovatrip.com/public/l/survey/rob-cohen
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Transcript
Introduction and Importance of Bisexuality
00:00:00
Speaker
🎵
00:00:12
Speaker
Hello and welcome back to Bye Guys. I'm Rob. I'm here today with a special guest who is in the LGBT plus charity space where bisexual people are often left behind and we're going to talk about that today and how that plays out and what we can do about it. My guest today is Dominic Arnall. He is the CEO
00:00:33
Speaker
of Just Like Us, the LGBT Plus Young People's Charity based in the UK. He is coming to us from across the pond, as some of our favorite guests do. He was previously the chair at MindOut, a charity for LGBTQ mental health services.
00:00:50
Speaker
And also previously the head of projects and programs at Stonewall, a UK charity fighting for freedom and equality for the LGBTQ plus community. And he is pretty sure, quote, that he's the only bisexual man running an LGBT plus charity in the UK. At least that is what we messaged about. So well, I believe you will talk about that. Welcome to to buy guys, Dominic.
00:01:16
Speaker
Oh, thank you very much. Certainly only out bisexual guy, I think.
Dominic's Personal Journey of Self-Discovery
00:01:21
Speaker
Okay, well, that's important. That is very important because, as we know from bi invisibility and erasure, if we're not out, then you don't know and you often can't implement the things that might benefit the community.
00:01:35
Speaker
So I want to ask you all about that. I have many questions about that. But before we get into it, as we always do, I want to hear about you and your story and your bi journey. So first of all, what pronouns do you use and how do you identify sexuality or any any other spectrums you want to identify on? So I use he and him and I identify as a cis man, as a bi cis man. Yeah, that's me.
00:02:03
Speaker
Cool. Cool. So sometimes that question is like half the episode and then sometimes it's quite straightforward. So in terms of the bisexual identity, when did you first start to notice that in your life and tell us about that journey and when you came out and
00:02:24
Speaker
Well I really like the framing of that question I must say when did you first start to notice that in your life because I think that very often I'm asked when did you know you were bisexual which is such a complicated question because what would you mean when did I know the word bisexual when did I use the word bisexual when did I start having feelings or
00:02:43
Speaker
But I think to use your question, when did I notice? We would have been at school, I think primary school. I certainly had attractions to all sorts of people and they weren't necessarily kind of sexual attractions, but they were attractions and they were people that I wanted to be with and spend time with.
00:03:03
Speaker
And I remember definitely being very young and seeing there was a boy that I just sort of always wanted to play with and be near, even though I didn't really know him very well.
00:03:15
Speaker
And I think that that sort of process has sort of carried on throughout my life really. So it's just been a sense of knowing that my attraction is not limited to one gender and sort of never has been. I think in terms of my bisexual journey, it's been, I was going to say it's been a bit unusual talking to bi people, it's often not that unusual actually.
00:03:38
Speaker
But it feels unusual when you're talking outside by conversations. So I came out about 15 to my parents.
Challenges of Being Bisexual in the Workplace
00:03:47
Speaker
It didn't go very well. And, resultingly, I didn't tell anyone else for three or four years, probably. So until I was 18, 19. And then I was sort of out to all my friends.
00:04:00
Speaker
And, you know, life took a few turns. I took a job. I was doing something else. I'd met someone. And suddenly I realized I sort of wasn't out anymore. So the new circular friends I had were people that I knew through my partner. And, you know, I started thinking, well, you know, maybe I'm maybe I'm not that bisexual after all. Maybe, you know, maybe this is my life now. Maybe this is who I am.
00:04:26
Speaker
And life kind of carried on like that for quite a while. And then when I was 35, I started working for an LGBT charity and I still wasn't out. And I was very scared of coming out an LGBT charity, possibly more scared than I would have been at a non LGBT charity, actually, particularly as when I came out at Stonewall, there weren't any bi men there, to my knowledge. Well, there weren't any bi men out there, I should say.
00:04:56
Speaker
and turned out they were by men there. So I then sort of, I then kind of came out of work and then I realized, oh my goodness, I've now got to tell my partner,
00:05:14
Speaker
And I don't want to go over too many of your questions here, but this is kind of my story, I guess. So I came out of work. I sort of started being progressively more and more out because none of my friends were really new. And what was strange is my friends from way back home
00:05:30
Speaker
all new. And I didn't really realise that I had been sort of leading this slightly strange life existing in different ways, in different spheres. And it almost happened without me recognising it, or I had just got so good at it that I didn't even occur to me. And I sort of decided that I was going to be out in all spheres. I was going to be an out by man now.
00:05:56
Speaker
And so I wrote an article for The Independent, which is a newspaper we have in the UK. I was working Stonewall so I could do stuff like that. And I wrote it on a celebrity that had been sort of a gay man celebrity that had been really biphobic. And I wrote an article on why that was paying for and why we need to be better on this as a community. And it was really funny because the first thing that was happening in my mind was that I wasn't really worried about my friends because I had now told
00:06:26
Speaker
my various groups of friends. I'd now told my partner. I was really worried about posting on Facebook and having kids at school. I didn't really know that well. Suddenly find out I was bisexual. And I was worried that they would think we always knew that.
00:06:42
Speaker
And that was painful to me for some reason, and I'm still not entirely sure why, but that's what I was trying to avoid all those years, I think. That said, I've now been out for six or seven years to absolutely everybody. Flags, pins, whatever I can get away with, and it's been great.
Understanding Bisexual Identity
00:07:00
Speaker
And that's not to say that everyone's coming out story is great, because I think we've got to be really careful around those narratives. But for me, certainly, it's become something that
00:07:11
Speaker
in contrast to me hiding it has become incredibly important to me. That's awesome. I have a few follow up questions, but also we have a lot in common. I'm also out for about six or seven years. So like something was in the air around 2015, 2016.
00:07:31
Speaker
well i just don't think there were that many by people you know i'm sorry again out um and i think that that in all spheres there weren't that many by people out so that there just wasn't the kind of scope for it a lot of the time i mean i the the reason i i came out of work was that someone said to me have you ever been with a man well i said
00:07:51
Speaker
Yeah. And he said, well, how can you call yourself straight then? And I was like, but, you know, and I was in this awkward, centrist space that we're familiar with thinking, well, you know, what do I call myself? And he was saying, well, I choose the word bisexual for that, you know, rather presumptuously, but also for me, true, because that bisexual has always been the thing that has felt true in all spaces.
00:08:16
Speaker
Whereas all the other words, you know, you can't really call yourself gay if you're married to a woman, you certainly can't call yourself straight if you've been with men before. So everything felt like it was kind of uneven and not quite a good fit. And that's why I use the word to this day.
00:08:34
Speaker
Cool, that's awesome. So many straight men do continue to use that word even when they're having sex with men, but that's a topic for another time. Or go ahead. I think it's a really important topic because certainly in the UK, there's been lots and lots of research that shows that particularly in this sort of young cohort, about 50%, this crazy high statistic of young people would consider themselves not totally straight and not totally gay.
00:09:01
Speaker
massive amount and about 2% call themselves bisexual. So we have a slight branding issue
00:09:10
Speaker
That is fascinating because most gay men that will say they don't believe in bisexuality will have a great story about a straight guy they took home. It's true in my journey as well. I certainly didn't use that word for a long time and I think that's really interesting.
00:09:32
Speaker
It is, it's fascinating. It's something I'm always interested to talk about. But I also want to go back for a second and like, I think it's interesting you said your story may be different than other bi pupils, but actually not so much because I've heard so many times this idea of existing in different spaces in different ways. And even when you come out, that doesn't mean you're out to everyone. It's a constant decision when you're with
00:10:00
Speaker
in new spaces and with new groups of people. And I also like something no one's ever mentioned that I very much identified with when you said it was like, when I started coming out, like, okay, the first few, it was kind of hard to do, I worked myself up to it. Then I went through a phase where I was like, excited to tell people, especially straight, straight people, because I was like,
00:10:22
Speaker
guys, I figured something out that you guys don't know yet. And I was excited to kind of tell them after I broke the ice. But then I thought about my old friends from high school or college, especially the ones who were queer themselves or gay themselves. And I had this anxiety about coming out to them because I thought,
00:10:43
Speaker
Oh, they're gonna say we already knew that and like they're gonna be ahead of me and like they might have realized something about me that I should have realized before could have I mean, I certainly could have if I had the language and
00:10:59
Speaker
knowledge. You said you weren't quite sure why you had the anxiety and I'm not quite sure either, but this is helping me realize it might have been just some shame about not knowing it for myself until my 30s. Maybe you're right.
Influence of Coming Out Narratives
00:11:17
Speaker
I think there were two kinds. There was the shame of not knowing it, and then there was the fact that this had been used to
00:11:25
Speaker
not me specifically, but being queer have been used to bully me at school. So the idea that under those circumstances it wouldn't have occurred to me just felt really silly. But there you go. Yeah. And when you were 15 and you said you came out to your parents, did you use the word bi then? I used bi or bisexual, I can't remember, but I did use the word.
00:11:51
Speaker
And I used the word because we, do you know the band Placebo? No. So I don't know if they're quite big in the UK, but the singer is this bi man called Brian Mulco and he has like this awesome hair and he was amazing. And I saw him singing and I read him as gay and someone said, no, no, no, he's bisexual. And I thought,
00:12:17
Speaker
That's what I am too. So I told people, I was like, oh, I'm like Brian Mulco, right? That was my kind of my fit in. And I remember my dad sort of saying, look, everybody goes through things, everybody has things happen to them. But you've got to decide what you want your life to be like.
00:12:38
Speaker
And I had this
Improving LGBT Youth Experiences
00:12:41
Speaker
sense I was at this fork in the road where I got to choose this right path or this wrong path. That's the image that I had in my head. And to this day, I regret that I did that very literally.
00:12:54
Speaker
you know, I said, right, I'm going to make the choice to date women. And it's funny, you know, because it's not the most disastrous coming out story. I mean, I've heard worse. I've heard of people being kicked out of the house and all that, and that didn't happen to me. But it is amazing how in that moment you are so incredibly vulnerable and so
00:13:17
Speaker
sort of able to be influenced. And now part of our work when we get young people talking is we get them to tell their coming out story to groups of parents. And you can almost see these groups of parents who at first are thinking, well, I'm not LGBT, this has nothing to do with me. And then when the kids say, actually, this was what happened when I come out, you see these ears picking up like, wait a minute.
00:13:41
Speaker
I should probably listen to this just in case. Yeah, interesting. Okay, I want to get into that more in a minute. But it's also interesting. It's like some of the horror stories of coming out when people react really badly. It's like, that is bad. But
00:13:57
Speaker
at least you know it's a bad reaction and sometimes when you get that middle of the road reaction you don't even realize there's anything wrong with it and you actually internalize the repression. I think that's really well put. And so it can actually have a long-term effect even if it doesn't seem as bad in the moment.
00:14:18
Speaker
I mean that's exactly what happened with me is that what I got what I felt was a caring response so therefore I felt I should listen to it as one does with one's parents and I wouldn't even say it wasn't a caring response but it definitely wasn't a response that I needed to live as me.
00:14:45
Speaker
You mentioned your partner. Yeah. I'm curious, how did you meet her and how did your sexuality affect your partnership or your marriage and like when, you know, what was coming out to her like? So we we were set up on a blind date in London and we turned up and we just sort of got on very well straight away. And that was eight years ago now. So we just sort of talking and talking. And it just sort of went very well. Like, you know, I can't remember. It sounds ridiculous.
00:15:14
Speaker
exactly when. I know I would imagine we've been together about a year. That's roughly right. And I came home and I sort of said, you know, I've got something to say that I thought bisexuality was this, but it turns out that it's actually more like this.
00:15:34
Speaker
And that's probably a bit more like me. And then of course, that was sort of fine. I think the more difficult bit was then I was working for an LGBT organization and I was a bi man. So then I was writing about it and I was talking about it. And I think we did go through a bit of a moment where she was trying to work out, well, why has this not come up before?
00:15:57
Speaker
you know, why has this sort of suddenly come up?
Intersectionality: Bisexual and Trans Identities
00:16:00
Speaker
Has something happened? You know, has it been precipitated by an event that you now, and that's why you're sharing it. And that wasn't the case. I mean, other than the event of someone at work just telling you a little bit more about it.
00:16:12
Speaker
So, but I mean, since then, she's been she's been absolutely fantastic. I think there's something unique about being bi and that you have to come out coming out to your partner is a is a bi and a trans experience, you know. Yeah. It's not something that if you're if you're gay or your lesbian, you'll go through as he's coming out to your partner's parents, you know, all these like little interesting things that you kind of go through.
00:16:39
Speaker
And for me, it just became quite important to tell people because I'd spent so long not telling anyone. So I became like Mr. Bye Guy for a while, like just talking about it as often as I could.
00:16:54
Speaker
Same. I went through that period. I may still be in that period. Oh yeah, me too. When you told your wife you thought bisexuality was this thing, but actually it's this, do you remember what you actually were thinking and what you said?
00:17:11
Speaker
Well, I remember what I must have said, because this is what I had thought, is that I had sort of thought that being bi was a kind of, you know, I sort of thought that being married meant that I wasn't bi anymore. That's what I had in my head, being in this long term relationship, having been with a woman for so long.
00:17:33
Speaker
And I suppose I viewed by being biased behavioral rather than it being something that was part of me. And I think that that's where I got it wrong. And that's where, you know, when I had the conversation at work and they said, well, no, you know, it's not straight, is it? And I was sort of thinking, well, no, well, maybe this box does fit me the best. I mean, it's funny because, you know, it's just never been very simple with me. I've never felt a really clear cut. That's definitely me. You know,
00:18:03
Speaker
I've come to really love the term bio bisexual because it just sort of fits me the best and it's not a lie and it encompasses sort of all of me. Your sexuality is complex and not simple. I've never heard that before.
Need for Bisexual Resources and Representation
00:18:22
Speaker
It's interesting because so much of their narratives by LGBT organisations and LGBT peoples to a degree focus on this sense of being sure.
00:18:33
Speaker
and being certain and there being a moment, you being miserable, there being a moment and everything being fine. And that's not my story. And actually the more and more people I meet, that story doesn't encompass all of our communities at all. Sometimes it can be a bit more complex than that.
00:18:52
Speaker
Yeah, exactly. I do. I do think there's so many people in marriages who think if I come out, that means something's going to change in the relationship or the structure of it will change or we, you know, we'll have to have an open relationship, but many people actually remain monogamous and still being out to their partner is important because it's your personal identity is important, not because you need to be polyamorous necessarily.
00:19:20
Speaker
No, exactly. And of course it's, you know, I think for some people polyamory is the answer. I think for me, being in a monormous relationship was fine and I didn't want that to change. I wanted to be heard and I didn't want to lie about it, if that makes sense. It felt like an expression of honesty to me.
00:19:40
Speaker
It's so funny how to many people, straight people, that might not make sense. But of course it is possible to love your wife and love your marriage and want to be monogamous and also not want to lie to your wife about this important thing every day. Of course that's possible and yet
00:20:04
Speaker
many people will say, well, why, why would you bring it up? And they don't get it. And so thank you for sharing that and putting it that way.
00:20:17
Speaker
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Speaker
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00:22:05
Speaker
Let's get into your work and your charity work and let's talk about LGBT youth. So first of all, tell us a little about Just Like Us. What is it? Why was it created? And how did you get involved and what do you do there?
00:22:20
Speaker
So essentially over the last 30 years in the UK, the LGBT community, certainly in legislative terms, has taken some pretty huge steps forward. So, you know, we've got equal marriage, we've got, you know, you're able to serve in the armed forces, which you weren't, you're able to adopt.
00:22:39
Speaker
same-sex couples were able to access fertility treatment and there were lots and lots of changes that happened very quickly which led to ILGO which is a membership organisation for a LGBT organisation saying well the UK is the best place in the world to be LGBT and that's quite a high accolade and it's quite interesting I think because the experience of lots of people I knew at school wasn't really living up to that
00:23:04
Speaker
And of course, it makes sense if you think about it, that it doesn't matter if you're at school and you're being bullied and you're being bullied to the extent that you can't face it anymore. You know, the fact that you might be able to get married one day or that you might be able to adopt, it just sort of couldn't be less important. You know, you're trying to get through the day. So just like us perform really to improve the experiences of LGBT plus young people.
00:23:28
Speaker
and not by doing lessons to straight people saying, this is what a lesbian is, this is what a gay person is, but really bringing the stories to life of LGBT plus people throughout history, throughout culture, throughout science, and giving schools a complete curriculum that match their key stage, sorry, key stages, all the years at school, really to allow them to deliver LGBT inclusive content, whatever it is that they teach.
00:23:55
Speaker
And one of the programs we do is we have the ambassador program. So we train 18 to 25-year-old volunteers to speak in schools, workplaces, and the media about their experiences as LGBT plus people. Cool. That's awesome. What kinds of trends are you seeing lately with LGBT youth? How has it changed over the course of time that you've been at Just Like Us?
00:24:19
Speaker
Well, I think when I started in the sector, which was in 2015, there was a real sense of progress, like things were just sort of marching onward and it felt like things would just continue to get better and better. I must say, despite that, there was still very little biodiversity at that time, very little.
00:24:38
Speaker
And I think that, and I know that you've seen some of this in the States as well, there's been a bit of a disruption, to say the least, to that progress. And now it's starting to look like actually we're going the other direction and the experience, particularly of transgender young people, is getting incredibly difficult. Not that it wasn't always difficult, but I would say it's getting worse because there's a feeling in the media, certainly, that this is a hot topic.
00:25:09
Speaker
Every prime ministerial candidate we've got an election going at the moment is being asked what is a woman as this sort of missus despite you know all sorts of issues that being war in europe this is the number one issue apparently that candidates must discuss so it's become incredibly difficult over the time i've been in the sector.
00:25:29
Speaker
to be an LGBT plus young people person. And I think one of the differences people don't realise is that there are schools doing brilliant work, there are schools we work with that are incredible, but there are still schools doing absolutely nothing. There are still schools that refuse to do anything, refuse to provide support,
00:25:49
Speaker
We'll talk to the schools about, you know, all the old religious evils, etc. And we believe certainly that we don't believe, you know, that schools need to know absolutely everything. But we think it's right that students know about the existence of LGBT plus people.
00:26:04
Speaker
and they know that being LGBT plus is okay because if you don't know about the existence of LGBT plus people and you are LGBT plus, then you grow up as so many of us did thinking you're the only person in the world that has ever gone through this. That's an enormous burden to put on young people. So that's what we're trying to change.
00:26:26
Speaker
That's awesome. Yeah. I mean, really for kids, it's like, if you don't know this stuff exists, how can you even connect it to yourself or you just feel so alone? And that's what I'd, me too, like I had
Being a Bisexual Father
00:26:40
Speaker
all these thoughts and I just assumed no one else thinks this. And so I'm not going to think it either. And I just kind of pushed it.
00:26:47
Speaker
away. But like you said, though, with trans and non-binary kids and gender fluid, gender queer, gender non-conforming, this is sort of the most targeted group right now over there and definitely over here. It's like a political lightning rod, unfortunately. How do you guys address
00:27:09
Speaker
gender and trans youth. And bisexual people are overrepresented among trans and non-binary people. There's a lot of crossover. Absolutely. And I'm always saying this when we talk about LGBT people and trans people, like two completely different groups of people. A, it's not true there are lesbian trans people, there are gay trans people, but there does seem certainly in my circles to be an overwhelming number of bi trans people.
00:27:37
Speaker
And that plays out in our research as well, an awful lot of trans people. And I wonder if there's something about looking at your identity in depth, which we all have to do as LGBT plus people, that makes you kind of consider yourself in a way that other people don't. And that's just a guess.
00:27:56
Speaker
But I think that bi people are trans people, trans people are bi people. And we've always had that kind of sharedness in the community. And I think that when the major LGBT organisations, certainly in the UK, were ignoring trans people, of course, they were also ignoring bi people. So we've also had that kind of shared feeling of being the kind of outsider quiz as well.
00:28:20
Speaker
Uh-huh. Do you see a shift in the number of—I mean, you mentioned a statistic earlier, but in the actual work you're doing, do you see more kids identifying as any of the LGBT letters? Is there a particular letter or letters that
00:28:39
Speaker
is increasing more at the moment? So all of the LGBT letters are increasing in proportion to kids that identify as straight, but by kids particularly I'm happy to say that there are more kids that feel comfortable with ID as by certainly in our research than there have ever been before.
00:28:58
Speaker
which is phenomenal because I think that in schools, what it means is that kids are hearing the word bisexual. They're kind of understanding the term and they're relating the term to their own lives in a way that I think took me rather a long time to do. And of course, kids today are having this wonderful thing where they're able to say who they are.
00:29:20
Speaker
and they won't take no for an answer. It's just the most wonderful thing to see kids of that age so confident and so able, so articulate in speaking their truth. It's wonderful.
00:29:32
Speaker
It is amazing, like I want to see what these kids, the kids who are lucky enough to grow up somewhere where it's accepted and visible, what's that going to be like when they become adults? Because like you and I, we're doing cool stuff, but we were both pretty, me more than you, but we were both not at the level some of these kids are at today with the comfort at such a young age. So it makes me hopeful.
00:30:02
Speaker
It really makes me hopeful, too. And what I hope is that I think that certainly in the LGBT community, there are certain people of, you know, my generation who kind of are trying to pull the ladder up a bit, you know, and who are sort of saying, well, you know, I'm gay, but all this stuff of gender is ridiculous or whatever. And I think that that is really something that all of us need to watch, because
00:30:28
Speaker
And we were at the other end of that, you know, and we should remember that we shouldn't allow ourselves to have such short memories. And what I have and what I hope for the kids that are growing up today is that they get a sense of that as well. They remember that when they get older, there will be things, you know, which you and I haven't heard of that they haven't heard of yet. Right. There will be there will be new things that that neither us know. And I hope that they embrace them and they remember the discrimination that they faced.
00:30:56
Speaker
as I hope for all of our community actually. Right, me too. Something I'm noticing, I'm curious if you have too, is like with young people especially and even some people in their 30s around my age is like
00:31:12
Speaker
They don't necessarily want to identify as bi. Maybe it's our branding issue. Maybe it's like stigma. But they will say stuff like, well, but I'm not straight either. And I have no label. Or I am whatever I want to be today. So it's this fluid identity. But they don't want to assign a specific label to it. Are you seeing more of that? And if you are, how do you target a group like that for these kind of resources?
00:31:42
Speaker
So I, funnily enough, yes, particularly in that kind of 30 plus category you talked about. I think that's quite common and the kind of who cares, I'm just me thing seems to be like a phase people go through later on in life where they start to think that maybe labels don't matter at all and maybe we can all just
00:32:03
Speaker
It's a sort of slightly utopian vision, isn't it? I want that someday, but I'm not sure I'm there yet. It would be wonderful, but I don't think any of us are there. I don't think society's there, and certainly the support structures aren't in place for young people that want to grow up because they can't be whatever they want. They will
00:32:24
Speaker
soon realise that people who reflect their identity aren't represented in books and aren't represented on the television and people will tell them that who they are is wrong. So they will then have to go through this process of reclaiming this identity again. And I think in that environment, saying, well, I'm just me is fine if that's your story, but it's also a reflection of the kind of slightly more privileged position you found yourself in. And it's not a position that is available to everyone.
00:32:53
Speaker
Yeah, well said. That's a, yeah, interesting perspective on that. I agree. And now word from our sponsor, BetterHelp. You know, when I was first recognizing my bisexuality and coming to terms with it, I thought it was something I would take to the grave and never tell anyone. I was very stuck focusing on problems instead of solutions. I was very wrapped up in fear of what would happen if I came out
00:33:22
Speaker
And I was not really thinking of all the joy and positive changes that would come from coming out. One of the things that really changed things for me was therapy and finding a therapist. It's helped me to stop focusing on those fears, and it's helped me to be more authentic, get in touch with my feelings, speak my truth, and relate and communicate better with other people.
00:33:42
Speaker
There's this perception that if you see a therapist, it means something's, quote, wrong. I totally disagree. I think everyone can benefit from talk therapy. So if you are thinking of giving therapy a try, BetterHelp is a great option. Full disclosure, I have not tried BetterHelp myself. I already have a therapist for many years who I love, but BetterHelp is great for many people. It's convenient, it's accessible, it's affordable, and it's entirely online.
00:34:07
Speaker
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00:34:42
Speaker
let's talk a little about the B in the charity space in general. So something we hear a lot is that bisexual people receive something like less than 2% of the resources that go to LGBT plus groups, very little funding, very little things specifically targeted for the B in LGBT. So we hear that a lot, but I'm curious,
00:35:10
Speaker
How do you actually see that playing out? Is that actually a big deal or are the other resources helping by people? Let's start there. I mean, this is a big, big topic. That's a really big question. It's a difficult one. Are the resources helping by people? Well, sometimes, I guess is the answer. I think generally an acceptance of more queer people is helping by people. It's good that by people are able to get married in same-sex relationships.
00:35:37
Speaker
So it's a little of each. The progress has helped. I think the trouble is that in a kind of slightly trickle down way, it was expected at some point, it seems like that's all by people needed is to have those kind of crumbs from the table. And that isn't and has never been true. And there are a great many by specific issues. And sometimes it can be categorized as well, you know, where are our bars?
00:36:02
Speaker
I'm thinking, well, certainly in the UK, our border control has turned back by people to countries where they can be killed.
00:36:11
Speaker
on the basis that they can just be with, well, can't just be with the other gender. And of course, you know, huge disparities in sexual health, huge disparities in mental health, certainly substance abuse, drug misuse, and I'm not, of course, suggesting this is all by people, but certainly it seems to be more prevalent with by people, everything that I just said. So there are huge issues that need to be tackled and that aren't being tackled. A lot of the time I would say by mainstream LGBT
00:36:41
Speaker
organizations. I'm lucky being by myself that obviously this is important to me and I'm able to keep an eye. But then I think something that is really important is who is in that organization. So for me, I think about a quarter of our staff are bi, which means that if you need to call someone for a case study, you can probably work that out. It means that your first thought isn't necessarily going to be a gay man or a lesbian.
00:37:09
Speaker
And it means that you kind of probably understand these issues in a little more depth. So when someone's talking about something that's not sexual orientation, like mental health, you're going to be thinking, well, of course, that's very prevalent with bi community in a way that perhaps you're not if you're not part of the bi community.
00:37:27
Speaker
So we do a number of things that are specifically aimed at bi people and we make sure that our LGBT resources are inclusive of bi people and that we're talking about bisexuality as a spectrum and all that sort of thing all the time. Some of the stuff that's got the best response is that we do these media pieces
00:37:48
Speaker
because although you hear about LGBT in the media, a lot of it's negative or a lot of it's focused on adults. So we get the voices of young LGBT people to speak in the press about something they really love. So you'll have like a bi person that's like 18 saying, I really love Brooklyn 99, this is why it meant a lot to me.
00:38:07
Speaker
And that's the kind of stuff that we want young people to find when they're searching, you know, about being bi, about their identity. We want them to find, like, bi people talking about cool shows, they like stuff that they can get into. And that's that's what we're trying to create in the moment. Yeah. Focus on the positive and like the joyful aspects of it for kids. I mean, at the moment, so particularly in the UK, I don't know if this is true in the US, but
00:38:35
Speaker
LGBT charities talk about suicide a lot. They talk about self-harm a lot. And there are reasons for doing that, which I understand. But we just have to be very careful about what we're telling kids about themselves. I mean, for me, no one should be walking into a school saying LGBT people are four times as likely to attempt suicide. It's a really dangerous thing to do. And actually, we're duty bound to tell some of those great stories from our community.
00:39:03
Speaker
so people know that actually being LGBT can be really great.
00:39:07
Speaker
That's really interesting. I never really thought about how tricky that can be in that space. So I'm curious if you could expand a little. We know that mental health outcomes are worse for bisexual people than straight, gay, lesbian. We know that physical health outcomes are often worse as well. How do you, as a charity, address that without always talking about the negative and the downsides? How do you balance that?
00:39:37
Speaker
Well, firstly, I think it's important who you're talking to, because I think we, like all charities, can be a bit guilty of you get your speech, the thing that you say, and then you go out and you sort of say everyone. Whereas actually who you're talking to is very important. So for me, if you're talking to young people, you should be telling them where to get support with their mental health. Absolutely. Signposting them to resources.
00:40:00
Speaker
But we don't need to do a kind of a pitch for money, for example, which might focus on the negative or a pitch for support, which you might do to teachers. You might say, look, this is why it's important that you're supporting bisexual young people specifically, because actually the mental health rates are worse, for example.
00:40:18
Speaker
And that's an appropriate message when you're trying to drum up support, whether that's financial support or whether it's making sure that an institution is doing its job. Personally, I don't think it's an appropriate message for young people. I think the message for young people should be that you can live a wonderful life, that there is a community there waiting for you. And if you need help, that help is available and here it is. Interesting.
00:40:44
Speaker
Yeah, I was gonna ask, you kind of answered this, but let me throw it at you again, like, you know, how does your bisexuality affect the work you do at Just Like Us or other work you've done? It sounds like there's like an intangible thing that makes a lot of sense to me of just like,
00:41:03
Speaker
we will, I will be, you'll be looking at the issue a little differently and you may think of something that a gay or lesbian person might not even realize, you know, to phrase something a certain way. Is it mostly that kind of X factor or are there other things too?
00:41:20
Speaker
I think it is that, because I think that diversity, and this is true of other diversity strands as well, when you're doing something on behalf of someone, it's never going to be quite as good as if you've got the right people in the room. And I think that's the case for all diversity work, and why diversity work is a part of that.
00:41:42
Speaker
But I think there's also, when you're in a space that's had a lack of bi people and certainly leadership of LGBT charities in the UK and from what I understand pretty similarly in the UK, in the US, bi communities have been extremely critical, rightly so, of LGBT charities who have ignored them,
00:42:03
Speaker
made jokes sometimes, used the words gay and lesbian as a synonym for LGBT, you know, used homophobic without mentioning biphobic, the sort of whole nine yards. And that's happened for a really long time. And because of that, I think bi people in the UK can be quite critical, quite cynical of LGBT plus charities. And I don't think that they're wrong, I should say.
00:42:31
Speaker
But it's nice to be a bi man that's out as a bi man running an LGBT charity because I hope that that does something to soften that as well. I hope that I can show that we're doing good work and they know that I'm coming from a really authentic place.
00:42:48
Speaker
cool awesome yeah it seems like when when bi people are invisible at the top of organizations like yours then we're then we're just bound to be erased in a trickle-down way but when you've got somebody you know with this stuff in mind then you just kind of that that trickles down as well and it's we're part of the conversation absolutely i mean it's not uncommon certainly about
00:43:14
Speaker
Not so much nowadays because the community has done a great job of calling them out on it. But it used to not be that uncommon in the UK to have a list of, say, 100 LGBT athletes or 100 great LGBT leaders. And there wouldn't be a single bi person on the list. That happened a number of times.
00:43:32
Speaker
Because LGBT, you can keep having letters, but unless you're actually planning to do some of the work that underpins that and understand the needs of those groups, then really, you're still just saying, let's be mean gay. Right. Here's a random question. Let's say you were hired by the UK government to sort of
00:43:55
Speaker
correct the buy erasure and the charity space and they gave you all the resources you asked for. What would you target? What do you think to help the bi and trans communities really sort of the most targeted? Where would you focus on? What do you think are the biggest things that were lacking at the moment?
00:44:15
Speaker
So you know what, firstly, I would fund bi groups by specific groups. So despite working for an LGBT charity, I would say that we have to do our bit and we have to be inclusive. But the situation in the UK is that bi work isn't funded at all. So you've got big LGBT groups that are, you know, going through a journey of bi inclusion.
00:44:38
Speaker
But I don't think that that would ever be enough, actually. I think however good we are, there are specific needs of the bi community that LGBT charities aren't set up to address. So I think that the correct funding, and there are some absolutely brilliant ones we have here in the UK, we have Biscuit, which is a resource for bi women. We have the Bisexual Index, run by Marcus Morgan, which is fantastic.
00:45:01
Speaker
And I think that these are the sorts of groups that we need to make sure that we're funding by Pride in the UK to make sure that by people are having their needs addressed specifically as well as generally.
00:45:12
Speaker
Yeah. I love that because I'm part of a couple of bi organizations and we have very little money and we could use, we could do a lot. Like we have the sort of infrastructure built already to do stuff for the bi community. We just, there's only so much we can do with basically no budget. I think, and bi organizations have been doing a lot on very little for a long time, incredibly resourceful.
00:45:39
Speaker
And that's good and it's bad. It's good because it means that such a time when bi organisations are being funded and certainly the LGBT consortium in the UK has undertaken a review and is looking specifically at how you can get money to buy organisations, which is great. And what really struck me when I looked at the findings of that review is how little they wanted.
00:46:02
Speaker
you know we're not talking about millions and millions of pounds here, it was just so very reasonable. So I think for me that's the most urgent thing actually because those same bi organisations have really good connections with the community and are really well placed to do the work, they just need the money. Yup, agree, okay give us money.
00:46:27
Speaker
So I found an article where you were interviewed and you were talking about coming out in the workplace, which I think is a big topic for bi people. We talked about it last season. Even if you're out to your friends or family, it's another big decision to come out at work or not. If you're bi, you don't necessarily need to, but then
00:46:54
Speaker
So I'm curious, why do you think it's especially hard for buying people to come out in the workplace? What was it like for you? Do you have any advice for people who might be out in other spheres but are not out at work? So it's difficult me speaking on this because I've worked for LGBT organizations for a while, and there's certainly the perception that it would be easier to be out at an LGBT organization.
00:47:20
Speaker
I don't know if this is part of the question, that hasn't always been true and I've absolutely experienced biphobia working for LGBT organisations at LGBT conferences but I think that because of that it's slightly difficult to talk about being out at work in non-LGBT environments because I never
00:47:43
Speaker
I think this is the problem as a bi person. You're not sure if you're safe to be out. And then if you're not out, you feel desperately guilty that you took that decision. I worked for a mental health organization after I worked for Stonewall and I decided that I was going to be sort of fully out to everyone there.
00:48:00
Speaker
And it was, you know, it was sort of fine. I think if anything, there was a bit of a sort of, there was a bit of a feeling like, oh, is that it? You know, are people not more interested or bothered? And I was lucky that they weren't. But I don't know that the NGO sector is typically representative of most places in the UK, but that was my experience.
00:48:24
Speaker
Cool. Okay, and then finally I wanted to ask you about another piece you wrote that I thought was great. You wrote a piece in Pink News about how becoming a bisexual dad means that you feel you need to speak out even louder for the sake of our children. So I'm curious if you could tell us a little like
00:48:46
Speaker
what has the experience of becoming a bisexual dad been like and how has it affected your sense of identity or your bi identity or otherwise?
00:48:57
Speaker
When I wrote that article, I think my child was about two weeks old. So I was sleep deprived and I was incredibly anxious about almost everything. And yet my identity kept kind of playing on my mind.
00:49:16
Speaker
And I think that I was worried that people would think that it was weird, I was worried that she would, my daughter would feel, you know, some way about it when she got older, that there was that all this sort of stuff started flashing up. And I think is, as is so often the case, I kind of came to the conclusion that a lot of it was projection, a lot of it was things that I felt about myself at various parts of my life, I didn't want to
00:49:42
Speaker
up when I had a daughters and like sprang up and hit me in the face, you know, big, big time. And I think that I really wanted to just talk about it, you know, out of everything I've written, that is the article that most people have talked to me about. Because I think being like being out at work, you know, coming out as a father, there's something that feels a bit unsafe about that, you know. And I wanted to make sure that by people knew that
00:50:14
Speaker
can have whatever we want and in my case it was it was a child and we can be parents and actually a lot of us are parents you know yeah but certainly when I was looking there weren't many bi-male role models that you know when I was looking around and no one was talking about the fact they had kids and I thought actually that's that's an important thing for people to realize we've always of course got one eye on young people and I think
00:50:40
Speaker
when i told someone and i remember their response to me was that i asked them if they were going to come out to their parents and they said no grandchildren have always been really important to my parents and i couldn't tell them i'm bi on that basis and i remember thinking well that's unusual because you know whoever you end up with now in the uk you you can have kids
00:51:00
Speaker
But I thought, I didn't think she was wrong. I think she was still right because there's some sort of setting that kicks off in parents to say, my child is LGBT. Does that mean, you know, that they're going to lead a certain life and I'm not going to have children? So I think for all LGBT people that yes, we can have children is really, really important. And I think particularly in the bisexual space, just because I hadn't seen it before.
00:51:25
Speaker
that was the first line of questioning from my parents when I came out to them was all about, do I still want kids or not? So even though to me, I was like, why are you asking that? That's not what I'm talking about. It is for a certain generation or maybe for straight couples, that's very tied together. Yeah, I just really love the part of the article where you talked about how
00:51:51
Speaker
the fatherhood identity at least two weeks in was really consuming all your other aspects of your identity and your bi identity almost like faded at that time because you were so focused on this kid. And you know, I'm curious like how that's evolved over time. I think there were two reasons for that. One was that I wasn't working. So because I was on parental leave,
00:52:16
Speaker
I wasn't engaging with LGBT stuff every day the way that I would if I was at work. And the second one is that those early weeks as a parent were, for me, the most terrifying time of my life.
00:52:30
Speaker
you know, to have a baby that was my responsibility essentially to keep alive in those early stages was incredibly scary. And that sort of fear, that sort of, I have to make this work, took over absolutely everything. I'm pleased to report that that feeling probably lasted about eight weeks. And then finally, the rest of your kind of personality starts to come back completely.
00:52:56
Speaker
in dribs and drabs over the next year. And since then, it's been really important to me to sort of recognize that all sorts of people can be parents and to make sure that when we're talking to parents, we're talking about the fact that kids could be LGBT and how would they respond if that happened? Because I think if you can just set that thought in
Future Aspirations for Inclusivity
00:53:20
Speaker
motion, I think a lot of parents, a lot of people that I speak to when they told their parents,
00:53:25
Speaker
their parents ended up being fine, but they weren't fine right away. And there's this kind of cliche with LGBT people where you say, well, you know, you've had X long time to get used to it. They've just had to get used to it in an instant. And, you know, you think, well, fair enough, but maybe they could do a little more thinking in advance about what if their kids are LGBT and how would they respond? And actually, I think probably the world would be a much better place if they did. So we try and start that journey a bit early.
00:53:54
Speaker
That's awesome. Yeah, I know. Hopefully more people are imagining that possibility because the odds of it happening are increasing. I also thought it was kind of sweet in the piece that you were nervous about the future conversation with your child and coming out to them. And I just thought to myself, I understand that anxiety and where it comes from, but
00:54:23
Speaker
if he can articulate all this now in this article, I'm pretty sure he'll be fine when that conversation comes up by that time. I had some people message me and say very similar things. I had some other bi dads message me, which was really great, and just say, look,
00:54:43
Speaker
You forget, don't you? The problem isn't children. The problem is the wider world. Children are enormously accepting. Of course, no one should know that better than me in my work. Children are always accepting of difference, Ashley, is my experience. The only time is when they've been taught not to be.
00:55:04
Speaker
we're parents, so. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. I think, you know, if you can sort of set containers and safe spaces and normalize queerness from a young age, both as a parent and, you know, in schools and through the charity work, like the rest may hopefully fall together naturally and there will just be less shame and repression and stigma and bullying
00:55:29
Speaker
to begin with, if you establish these norms early. I think so. I think the thing of doing the gay lesson, as I said earlier, the thing of saying, right, well, this is who we are, even pride, really these are, for me, transitional stages.
00:55:46
Speaker
going towards a future where people don't feel like they have to jump from one thing to the other. People can feel that they can come out of their pace to who they want to, they can be who they want to in all walks of their life, but not like they're keeping a secret, like that's who they are. And I think for buying people that jacket sometimes fits a little better than this, right, you wear this, now you're this.
00:56:08
Speaker
Yeah, interesting. Cool. Well, thank you so much for being here, Dominic. This has been a fascinating conversation. You can follow Dominic on Twitter at DominicArnold, and you can support Just Like Us at www.justlikeus.org. So thanks so much for being here on Two Bye, guys. It was great to have you. Oh, thank you. I follow the podcast, so it's been a real pleasure to be on.
00:56:39
Speaker
2 by Guys is produced and edited by me, Rob Cohen, and it was created by me and Alex Boyd. Our logo art is by Caitlin Weinman, our music is by Ross Mincer, we are supported by the Gotham, and we are part of the Zencaster Creator Network. Use promo code 2 by Guys to get 30% off your first three months of Zencaster. Thanks for listening to 2 by Guys.