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#91 Katie Howland - IAA/NDAA 2023, AARO & More
374 Plays1 year ago
Katie Howland, MPH is an award-winning humanitarian with experience managing programs related to genocide response, childhood literacy, and global health across the Middle East and sub-Saharan Africa. Currently, Katie leads aid effectiveness efforts at a multi-million dollar international disability organization. In the past few years, Katie advised a Presidential campaign on forced migration and MENA issues, partnered with Nobel Peace Prize winner Nadia Murad's NGO to rehabilitate a classroom destroyed by ISIS, and was recognized in 2021 as one of the country's top 20 LGBTQ foreign affairs leaders by New America and Out in National Security.
Katie has an MPH in Epidemiology and BA in International Security and Conflict Resolution (ISCOR) from San Diego State University. Her work has been profiled by outlets including Forbes, MSNBC, The Hill, and Inkstick, and she is a regular podcast contributor on the national security implications of unidentified aerial phenomena. A sample of Katie's recent awards includes: 2022 Woman with MOXIE, 2020 Aerie Changemaker, and 2019 Rising Aztec.
Katie Linktree: https://linktr.ee/katiehowland
Katie Twitter: https://mobile.twitter.com/katieshowland
Katie Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/katie_s_how...
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Katie has an MPH in Epidemiology and BA in International Security and Conflict Resolution (ISCOR) from San Diego State University. Her work has been profiled by outlets including Forbes, MSNBC, The Hill, and Inkstick, and she is a regular podcast contributor on the national security implications of unidentified aerial phenomena. A sample of Katie's recent awards includes: 2022 Woman with MOXIE, 2020 Aerie Changemaker, and 2019 Rising Aztec.
Katie Linktree: https://linktr.ee/katiehowland
Katie Twitter: https://mobile.twitter.com/katieshowland
Katie Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/katie_s_how...
!! SUPPORT DISCLOSURE TEAM !!
Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/disclosureteam
Buy me a coffee: https://www.buymeacoffee.com/disclosu...
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Transcript
Introduction to Anomalous Podcast
00:00:01
Speaker
You're listening to the Anomalous Podcast Network. Multiple voices, one phenomenon.
Listener Appreciation
00:00:46
Speaker
Hey guys, how's it going?
00:00:49
Speaker
Welcome back to the channel. I just want to give a shout out to everybody for the love that you showed on my last interview with Exo Academia. I got so many positive comments and DMs and everything about that. So guys, thank you so much. It was a really interesting conversation. Now, today we had some more information put out from the government side of things, and I try my best to keep up with
Interview with Katie Howland
00:01:17
Speaker
it.
00:01:17
Speaker
I usually rely on other folk so yeah and I've got one of these fine people with me today. Me and Katie have spoken on book club and in the DMs and privately before but this is the first time she's actually on this show
00:01:35
Speaker
and I cannot wait to have this conversation because hopefully you should be able to break things down, not only for me, but for you guys as well, on the ins and outs of the language that we've been seeing recently with regards to the NDAA, the IAA, all the stuff and all these acronyms that, you know, they're hard enough to learn on their own, let alone everything that comes with them. So let's not waste any more time. Let's bring in my guest. Ladies and gentlemen, please welcome Katie Howland. Katie, how are you doing?
00:02:04
Speaker
Hey, I'm doing good. Thanks for having me. How are you? I'm good. Thank you. I really, really do appreciate you joining me. Um, I love the background as well. By the way, I saw your tweet about the vintage vibes. Oh yeah. That's what I do when I'm not, you know, talking about UAP is I'm like digging through thrift stores. So.
00:02:23
Speaker
I love it. I do. I love it. But talking about you, before we get into this jargon and all this information, I want to know a bit more about you. So let's start with your background, if you don't mind. If you could talk about your career background and some of your personal interests as well, and we can go from there.
00:02:42
Speaker
Absolutely.
Katie's Career Journey
00:02:43
Speaker
So I like to say that I have a very indecisive career. I have a lot of interest. And so I've kind of dipped my toes in a lot of ponds. But I got my undergrad in international security. So that was kind of my focus. And at the time, I didn't know if I wanted to go the intelligence route or more the international development poverty alleviation route. So straight in college, I interned both on Capitol Hill,
00:03:12
Speaker
under then Secretary of Defense, or was he CIA Director then? Leon Panetta, he jumped around a lot. And then also interned for then Vice President Joe Biden on his domestic policy team, primarily working on the mental health response to gun violence after Sandy Hook.
00:03:35
Speaker
So I had done a little bit of policy work, but very, very entry level. And so when I left college, I went and worked as
Interest in UAPs and Defense
00:03:47
Speaker
a military government contractor on a Naval base here in San Diego on a nine nation communications program focused on radio waveforms and defense acquisition. And I lasted five months because I hated it.
00:04:05
Speaker
But I spent some time on base and got to understand a very small bit about how working within the DOD works and some of the challenges, because I worked specifically on a joint Army Navy program. So I had a firsthand look into when you're working on these kind of cross agency, cross branch programs, how challenging it can be to get the tiniest things done. But eventually I switched to kind of international development work.
00:04:34
Speaker
So I did a lot of work with genocide survivors, with global health programs in sub-Saharan Africa. And as a part of that work, I kind of went back and forth between implementing the programs, so physically running programs with these people in other countries, to being a lobbyist. So that's really where I got, I would say, most of my knowledge about the Hill.
00:04:58
Speaker
very, very limited compared to my peers. But I did spend a year basically working with Congress and the White House on trying to get more funding for infectious disease programs, specifically malaria.
Personal Experiences and Science
00:05:12
Speaker
So
00:05:13
Speaker
I was really lucky in that I got to work a lot with Republicans and Democrats and the White House and kind of see their different perspectives and how they operate. And it's helped to really kind of color how I look at these issues. So when I volunteered on the Biden campaign based on my previous work with them and found out about the UAP issue, I was just hooked.
00:05:38
Speaker
And that's how I made it here. So I'm still in my day job doing kind of the humanitarian work. Um, but I definitely come to this work more with my limited defense and policy background in the back of my head. Awesome. That's amazing. So what about the UFO subjects in, in, in like childhood and growing up science fiction and that was that a thing for you? Surprisingly, no. So, um,
00:06:04
Speaker
I was very mainstream science. I got my master's degree in the sciences. I'm technically an epidemiologist, very cut in your eye. And it's funny looking back on it because I do identify as an experiencer, not necessarily with UAP related stuff, although potentially it's a bit of a gray area for me, but I kind of tried to push that stuff down.
00:06:34
Speaker
Um, I think I was so focused on being like this rational minded, you know, oriented person that it was just, it was like this box. I put it in and just set it aside. So it's been a very interesting time since I started getting into UAP kind of unpacking that. Um, but no, I wasn't really into UFOs or anything. I remember when like ancient aliens first came out, like watching it and loving it because I love archeology, not that I think it's a valid
00:07:00
Speaker
Valid show when it comes to science or history, necessarily, but it was like a fun escape. But yeah, no, this is all been kind of new for me, to be honest.
Government Complexity and Secrets
00:07:11
Speaker
But it seems like you've connected with it really quickly. I mean,
00:07:17
Speaker
Obviously a part of that comes from your background within the government and you see it from the government perspective, but there does definitely seem to be something else as well. So, you know, and you mentioned there that you consider yourself as an experiencer or something. Do you want to expand on that at all? You don't have to. I mean, I'm not shy about really anything. So, um, yeah, I, since I was a kid, I've seen apparitions like full bodied apparitions, not like a ton of them, but you know,
00:07:48
Speaker
five or so. I've had a few, a few episodes of precognizance, some that were pretty remarkable in terms of like, dreaming of a really strange place and ending up there like a week later. Other times where like, I've known something really bad was going to happen and then there was like a shooting at a place I was supposed to be. So, you know, I've had like weird anomalous things.
00:08:16
Speaker
recently I've had one or two OBEs while meditating. So like a kind of just like a mixed bag. I think I'm just a little more sensitive to whatever is out there, frankly. I've seen a number of orbs, but they were really, really small. Like, I don't know, this big, but like, I don't know. Like when people talk about orbs in the UAP situation, I feel like they're typically talking about like basketballs or big craft or things like that.
00:08:44
Speaker
But these orbs, both me and my husband saw them on multiple occasions in our house. So it's just been honestly a smattering. So I think the biggest thing I've taken from all of that is to just never say never. I hadn't had an OBE until the last year. I hadn't seen an orb until the last year. I think until you experience these things, it's really easy to be like, oh, no, that's bullshit.
00:09:12
Speaker
You know, I think what this feels really taught me is a lot of humility, frankly. That's amazing. It's funny you mentioned about these small orbs. It was a question I raised with Lou Elizondo in one of the interviews I did with him. It was a listener question or a viewer question and I'd not thought of it before. When I raised it to Lou, he was like,
00:09:34
Speaker
Well, yeah, it's a possibility. And again, I don't think he had ever been asked that question. And why not? Why do we have to assume that everything out there or
00:09:43
Speaker
or within is on a scale that we have to kind of fit in with. I think that's fascinating. I mean, look at like bacteria versus dinosaurs, right? Like those came from the same planet. So I have no idea what that was. If that was, you know, like UAP or if it was a spirit or if it was some weird atmosphere, something, I don't know. All I can tell you is it was always in the exact same spot in my house, both me and my husband saw it on three
Transparency and Government Role
00:10:10
Speaker
occasions separately.
00:10:11
Speaker
You know, and then I have never seen it since. Was it because I had a lot of antiques? I don't know, you know. But I think it's, you know, I've dived really deeply into it because I, like everyone else, I want to know. You know, I want, there's so much we don't know, so many questions we have and
00:10:32
Speaker
Uh, especially coming from a national security background, I got really annoyed that everyone else didn't want to know, you know, cause like, let's say it's nothing weird, nothing anomalous. If the Chinese have this tech, if the Russians have this tech, we better, sorry, I almost, um, we better know about it. You know? And so like, I think that regardless of where you fall on the spectrum, everyone should be talking.
00:10:57
Speaker
I completely agree. Sean raises a good point here. What's up, Sean? Good to see your brother. He thinks orbs could be Earth lights. And I kind of agree to that to some extent. And the thing is with me is that if these orbs are Earth lights, that's still a super exciting prospect because it's still something rare. Well, if it's something natural to this world that is just, you know,
00:11:21
Speaker
Rare and and and yeah like something that's not been studied that much because it's so hard to come across I think that's still a very exciting thing, you know, because we just don't know much about it. So I'm certainly open to it being anything and I would be just as excited about that, you know, it's I think that you just have to come at it with curiosity and be open to any of the possibilities and
00:11:44
Speaker
Absolutely, absolutely. Now let's move into the kind of government and I keep saying government aspects of things because you know one thing that I see a lot of on social media and everything is that people seem to pigeonhole the government as this one thing, this one entity that anything relating to the government is the government, the evil government.
00:12:07
Speaker
But let's go there. Let's talk about the fact that, in my opinion, I think in this day and age, we're seeing a shift within the government. The government has got to be millions plus employees if you break it down to the cleaners, to the Joint Chiefs of Staff and everyone. Do you know what I mean?
00:12:27
Speaker
How would you tell some, if somebody said to you, well, the government are keeping this a secret, what would you say to that person? You have a lot of faith in the ability of government to do anything. Well, um, coming with someone who's kind of been around it. Uh, no, I mean, I think I saw, I saw a stat recently that I think something like 900,000 people have security differences, um, both in the government and as contractors.
00:12:54
Speaker
Obviously, they're not all related to this topic. But if that just gives you an idea of the scope that you're talking about and trying to get any coherent agenda within that group is going to be incredibly challenging. And then you have, you know, different branches competing for different reasons. And are there maybe groups of people that may be trying to obfuscate? Absolutely. But I think anytime you get kind of
00:13:20
Speaker
a conspiratorial like big government is doing XYZ.
Government Process and UAPs
00:13:25
Speaker
Honestly, like I'm telling you because I used to have brunch with these people. They're smart. They're not that smart. You know what I mean? They're humans like you and me. And yeah, I think we need to be very mindful of recognizing the limits of government while not trying to assign it as like this behemoth modelist.
00:13:47
Speaker
Do you still think that secrets can be kept though within small groups within? Of course. I mean, that's, that's, you know, the sensitive compartmentalizing information, information SCI, which is like the highest level of security clearance. You can have different types of it, but, um, it's designed for that reason, right? Like the fewer people you have right into a program, the easier it is to keep these secrets.
00:14:10
Speaker
which is why I think it's so remarkable the way the IAA is setting up the new EAP office. Because the first thing I noticed when I read it was how broadly they're diffusing responsibility and information. It's almost like they're intentionally creating a system where there's going to be so many outlets that it can't be varied. And I think that's intentional. I think that's by design.
00:14:36
Speaker
And where does oversight sit within that? And what does oversight bring? Because people hear that word a lot, oversight, as if it's someone's looking over the shoulder, ready to say, you've not done this, or you've slipped up here. We're going to come down on you and make you bring this information out. Tell us about how oversight works. Well, I think within, I'm going to speak about what I read in the Senate IAA, so the Intelligence Authorization Act, because I have a feeling that's going to be broadly what the final legislation is
00:15:05
Speaker
covering. They focus on oversight in a lot of different ways. First of all, they require a new requirement in the IAA compared to the House NDAA, so the defense versus the intelligence side of things and the House versus that side, is that they explicitly say the deputy director has to be appointed by the Office of the Director of National Intelligence. So let me step back for a second because I just threw a lot of acronyms at you.
00:15:35
Speaker
So you have DOD, right, the military. Then you have the Office of the Director of National Intelligence. The ODNI is in charge of all 18 intelligence agencies. It gets a little convoluted because some of those intelligence agencies are like Air Force Intelligence, Marine Intelligence. So it's a little tricky, but the fact that the original Rubio, Gillibrand, and Gallego legislation said the new AP office can be in DOD,
00:16:05
Speaker
It can be an ODNI, or it can be in a joint component. Well, beauty kind of jumped the gun, right? And they built their AOI, MSG, rest in peace. Thank God. And they kind of jumped the gun. And I think that was intentional, right? I think they saw the writing was on the wall, and they didn't want to lose out to DNI. So what this does is it kind of forces them of, hey,
00:16:32
Speaker
Secretary of Defense can appoint the head of this, Kirk Patrick, but the deputy director is going to be reporting up to the ODNI.
Oversight and Whistleblower Protection
00:16:40
Speaker
So I think that was put in there kind of as a, we got our eyes on you. And that's one way to do oversight, which is to split it. In terms of actual oversight in the way it's typically mentioned though, it's more congressional oversight. And I was actually really pleased when I was reading the IAA because
00:16:58
Speaker
When I first read the defense side from the house, I was a little concerned because they set up this whole reporting mechanism, but then they said that SAPs, sensitive, secure access programs. Special access programs, too many acronyms. We're already then. And I kind of had this moment where I was like, okay, but any program that is dealing with this is going to be a step, right? And so I was concerned that this was just a little way that people could wiggle out
00:17:28
Speaker
Whereas in the IAA, so tired of these acronyms. We need like better ones to talk about this. They explicitly say that's only if those SAPS have already been accurately reported to Congress. And there's a whole legal code about how you report SAPS. So they're required to be reported to certain committees, but even if it's one of those rare, waived, unacknowledged SAPS,
00:17:54
Speaker
there's still technically reporting mechanism where you have to report to the head of the defense committee, the chair and the ranking member, so the head Democrat, head Republican, and the head of the appropriations pay, the money bags, Democrat and Republican. So I think what's really good about this is this basically says like, look,
00:18:16
Speaker
Doesn't matter if it's one of those really really deep programs that even the committees don't know about there still needs to be this oversight from congress and so I think they're really set in the stage to more forcefully You know require the oversight that congress is constitutionally given That's amazing. Yeah, and these are the small
00:18:38
Speaker
points that I struggle struggle with. And that's why I have to keep going to other people to explain. And another point that gets me every time is appropriation bills mixed with authorization. Are you able to break that down? I'm sorry for anybody out there like if you read all these
00:18:54
Speaker
This language that comes out, these are the things that ask where your questions will come from is, what's the difference between this and that and this and that? Katie can break it down. So yeah, appropriation. You're my best to break it down. I like calling my best friend who works at the Pentagon like, hey, could you clarify this real quick to me? No, but it's a really good point because appropriations and authorizations are like the two keys and they have to go together if you're going to have something work.
00:19:22
Speaker
Right now, we're talking only about authorizations. Essentially, the government is allowed to create these offices and create these programs and run them, and they're authorized to exist. But how in the world are you going to run an office if you don't have money for salary, or you don't have facilities, or you don't have a research budget, or you don't have any of that? So that's the appropriation. So you can think of just appropriations as someone's holding the purse, right?
00:19:50
Speaker
Um, so what I'm going to be paying really close attention to, to be honest, I think authorizations have a lot less teeth because you could create the greatest office
Public Advocacy and Participation
00:20:00
Speaker
with all of the most interesting requirements ever. But I want to see how much money is going to be designated, you know? And so I think, you know, we're going to need to pay close attention to that. Um, after the authorization bills pass is how do those funds line up? Um,
00:20:17
Speaker
And a lot of times you'll see sometimes where they'll create something and then underfunded and they are hoping people don't pay attention to that. But I'm confident that this group of fabulous people will hold their feet to the fire. So we might need to be making some calls to appropriators and that's something that I think will probably be doing in the future.
00:20:39
Speaker
Yeah, and I think that's something that you've already shown that is something you can help with because you recently put out the call to action on Twitter with contacting representatives and stuff, which we've seen other efforts before. And then kudos to everybody that's been involved in that before. So how did that come about? What made you want to do that? Or it's a difficult question. Because you did it.
00:21:08
Speaker
Literally it came out of nowhere. You just one day this thing appeared and it was like, oh my goodness. Like this is like, I was going to say, how can we, the people help? And so I guess you're that kind of middle person between, you know, well, we want to speak or show that our message to these higher ups and that. So yeah, what can we do and what will you be doing going forward between now and let's say the end of the year, maybe with the passing of the next NDAA?
00:21:34
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, I think it's something, you know, that was part of my old job. When I was a lobbyist, it was, you know, part-time directly going to the Hill, sitting in members' offices, talking to their staff members, right? But the other part of it was grassroots advocacy. So equipping people with the tools and the resources they need to be confident, because it's a little bit nerve-wracking if you've never done it before.
00:21:59
Speaker
calling your member of Congress and wondering, am I gonna be talking to the member? Am I gonna be talking to a staff member? Are they gonna quiz me? How long will it take? And so my goal is just to make it easy, right? I heard from a number of people after calling in like, oh, wow, that was a lot less scary than I thought it would be. And that's just my goal, right? I had also seen some scripts that have flowed around before that based on my experience were just a little too long.
00:22:25
Speaker
Or, you know, had such disparate messages. And so, you know, I want people to call and talk about whatever their heart desires. But if I can just make it a little easier, then I'm happy to do that. But yeah, I hope to do some more, you know, as we see the NDAA coming through. I don't know if they'll necessarily require any like direct advocacy because that's more conference committee really just like coming together and
00:22:52
Speaker
but I'm a firm believer that thank you calls are also very important, right? Like we need to make sure that we're not just contacting members and we want something, but that they see that we are paying attention. You know, we don't just make one call and forget about it and move on with our lives. So that's something that around the passage of the NDAA I'll probably be promoting. And I really encourage everyone to participate in that because
00:23:19
Speaker
These are members with feelings and they pay attention to how often issues are brought up. And I don't know, I also just like sending thank you cards. That's a good point, actually. That's a really good point. It's like receiving a wedding gift and sending the thank you note afterwards. It's just part of the engagement. I think you have to look at this as not a one off thing, but as building a relationship with your member of Congress, you know, and get get so they know you.
00:23:48
Speaker
get so that, you know, they, they see your phone number come up and they go, okay, I got a file, you know, and that's good because then they know that it's real, um, a real issue they need to pay attention to. And when they have intelligent people calling, right? Who are not going off on some deep end discussion, but are having an intelligent conversation. It goes a long way. Absolutely. Yeah.
00:24:15
Speaker
Walter here makes a good point, keeping the bridges sturdy. Absolutely, Walter, absolutely. So let me talk about, like, people are contacting their congressmen, their senators and representatives and stuff, but a lot of the time, or half the time here and there, they're getting through to staffers. But I think, and from what I've heard of from people I've spoken to, that the staffers are just as important for getting the message through. Can you talk on that as well?
00:24:41
Speaker
Honestly, sometimes more important. So every office is different, right? So I'll speak to the office I worked in back in the day, my first internship on the Hill. It was my job, for example, to answer the phones and tally every single phone call
Congressional Influence and UAP Hearings
00:25:00
Speaker
that came in. What the topic was, whether it was like pro or negative, right?
00:25:04
Speaker
And then at the end of the week, that would be combined with tallies from emails and letters and faxes. Cause some people still fax. I don't know. Apparently some people send smoke signals and beeps too. And you can ask Sean about pagers and then you bring it to the member and you say, okay, so these were the top three issues this week. And that's when people start paying attention. So that's why I was really important to me to.
00:25:32
Speaker
have our outreach all in the same day or the same week because if you're just kind of calling haphazard throughout the year, it doesn't have the same impact. So the staffers, honestly though, they're the ones writing the legislation. Like the member isn't sitting at their desk unless you have like an incredible member that is just super policy wonky. It's their staffers that are writing the legislation. It's their staffers that are doing the research. It's their staffers that are briefing them every day or every week on these issues.
00:26:02
Speaker
So don't be discouraged if you're talking to a staffer. That's probably where you want to be. And it's typically the DC staffers who work on legislation.
00:26:13
Speaker
while every member of Congress will have like a local office, those people are typically more like social workers, right? So they're focusing on what they call case work. So helping people with their immigration, helping people with social security benefits, things like that. So if you want to meet with those folks, that's fine. They might like pass your information to their DC office, but it's really about calling and meeting the DC people. But yeah, so it's
00:26:39
Speaker
Not a problem, not meeting your member. Very, very rarely does that happen. I used to lead big events where, you know, hundreds of people would fly into DC and we'd arrange meetings all day long with different members. And very rarely was it with an actual representative. And we still got huge impact out of it, you know, millions of dollars in funding. So, yeah, so there's something to be said about it.
00:27:09
Speaker
But these staffers have top-secret SCI clearance? Depending on the issues they work on, a lot of them do have clearances. Probably not SCIs, probably top secrets is my guess.
00:27:22
Speaker
But, you know, like if you're a person, so typically like the various legislative aides will have portfolios, like someone might work on housing and education, someone might work on immigration, but the people who work on defense and intel typically have at least some sort of clearance because they have to be able to go into like hearings and educate their members.
00:27:44
Speaker
So there could be that some of the stuff is actually having some of the briefings before the people they work for but could they possibly be seeing some of the videos and the stuff that we're not allowed to see. Yes, and likely before the member at times, depending on the person right and depending on the office and how much.
00:28:01
Speaker
that member gives delegates authority and responsibility to their staff. Yeah, that's entirely possible. And then on top of that, you also have committee staff. So like the Senate Intelligence Committee, for example, will have its own staff that lives at the committee. It isn't necessarily tied to any particular member. And so those members might also get access depending on- And isn't that where we've seen this latest report today come out of the Senate Select Committee
00:28:30
Speaker
And so let's let's jump into it. You know, what one thing I want to do is bring up an article written recently by D.D. Johnson. Let me bring it up and we'll go through the key points. He's around with me. He is. He's incredible. So let me bring this up. And I want to bring up a couple of points and hope that you can expand on them to break them down into a more layman's terms, let's say.
00:28:59
Speaker
Actually, before we do that, one thing I want to, if you could just tell us the difference. I mean, I guess you already have for that. For the next few months, we're going to see this NDAA and IAA language and like these two separate things. What happens towards the end of the year? Do they merge? When do they merge? Like, can you break that down for us? Yeah. So every year the US government is required.
00:29:23
Speaker
to pass 12 authorization bills, funding basically like each topic area, each department of the government. When they don't pass those, that's when you see like government shutdowns, right? Because they have to be able to reauthorize every year that this is allowed to exist within the government and you're allowed to spend money on it. So what happens sometimes is the different components might be merged or sometimes like defense and intelligence, right, will probably be merged
00:29:52
Speaker
That's why you see the first part of the Senate Intelligence IAA is actually just editing last year's defense
Bipartisan Efforts in UAP Legislation
00:30:00
Speaker
NDAA. So it gets a little convoluted. Sometimes they'll even do like rule everything together into one that's called an omnibus. So it's different each year, which is why you can never know exactly how it's going to work. But I would fully expect that the
00:30:18
Speaker
uh, intelligence and defense, you know, will be conferenced and essentially the committees will come together and they'll look at the Intel and the defense on house and Senate and basically find the middle ground, find where their agreements work out little differences here and there. Um, and then that's not voted on like in the committee. It's just kind of, um, conference at that stage, I believe could be.
00:30:43
Speaker
I haven't worked on conference committees before, so, but that's my general understanding of it. Um, yeah. So that should be what's happening this fall. Uh, and I would expect that, you know, hopefully, I mean, ideally you would have this in place before the beginning of the fiscal year, which is October 1st. Um, but that doesn't look likely. So they'll probably, um, do it maybe October, November is my guess.
00:31:11
Speaker
I think, personally, comparing it to last year when we started seeing this language with Senator Gillibrand and everyone bringing in this new language and everything, I think this is moving quicker this year, personally. It is early days, it is early days, but we have
00:31:29
Speaker
This is how Dan shout down the signal puts it is we have trains moving on the track side by side and they're moving at a pace. We're seeing things change, you know, on a fairly progressive way at the moment. So the only thing I would caution there though is that it is an election year. So you're going to have a lot of folks going home and campaigning. So it might get might slow down a little bit towards the end of October.
00:31:55
Speaker
the thing is what i will say to that is we saw that with the january sixth hearings though everything went dead then that that was obviously for front and foremost for everything but since that in the last week or so we've we've seen things go through on the 20th you know without any debates or anything happening and forgive me if i'm not saying it right because you know i don't know the ins and outs but didn't things get passed on the 20th that
00:32:23
Speaker
didn't really get questioned. It just went through. Just went straight through. And I want to also clarify that you know more about the US government than most US citizens do. So I think you don't need to have any qualifications there. But yeah, it's happening. And a lot of it's happening behind the scenes. I mean, if I remember correctly, we didn't see that the IAA had asked for a little few days at least after it had happened.
00:32:48
Speaker
you know, gears are working behind the scenes, you know, because you have people like an intelligence staff member, right? Who isn't as clocked into Jan six, maybe, right? Like, they're still having to do their work. So there's still people having to make their make their paychecks, luckily for us.
00:33:06
Speaker
Yeah, absolutely. Just for you guys in the chat there, it's good to see you guys coming through with some questions. I have highlighted a few that I will ask later on in the interview. I'm going to throw a question your way now, and I'm going to give you two minutes to answer it, because I've literally just had a text saying my daughter's screaming for me. So I want you to just give everybody in the chat two minutes of why it's important or it's good that we're seeing bipartisan effort.
00:33:31
Speaker
Oh, absolutely. So I've had the pleasure to work on two issues that have bipartisan support both before when I talked about infectious disease funding and this. And it's incredibly rare, as I'm sure everyone can see. But I think what it really speaks to, honestly, is the fact that if there's one thing Congress can get behind,
00:33:57
Speaker
and rally around with each other. It's when they feel like their oversight authority or their authority that is given from the constitution is sidestepped. And I think that what we've seen recently is a lot of anger. And I think righteous anger on the side of members of Congress that they have been sidestepped and they don't have all the information because these are folks who are making decisions about
00:34:23
Speaker
you know, the size of our military and how much funding is going to go to countering China versus something else. And if you don't have all the information, how can you make intelligent decisions about those things, you know? And so I think anytime you have a branch of government that feels slighted, everyone's going to rally around themselves. And also just, you know, a fact of our political system that defense is a pretty bipartisan thing in general.
00:34:53
Speaker
Um, so despite this being kind of a scary topic for some, you know, the last thing you want to do is be seen
Progress and Future of UAP Investigations
00:35:00
Speaker
as someone who is putting service members at risk. And I think that's honestly a big benefit of us. Even if you are the biggest piece nick in the world and you don't like how much money we spend on our military or what we've done in the middle East or whatever, um, I encourage you to use language that appeals to your member.
00:35:19
Speaker
So if your member is a right wing military hawk, talk about the need to protect national security and protect our service members. If your member is a left wing progressive, talk about the need to protect whistleblowers and make sure that congressional authority is being respected. So it's about figuring out why your members are supporting the issue and tailoring your messaging.
00:35:49
Speaker
because I think most of us can agree at the end of the day, I don't care why we get more information, I just want more information. Absolutely. There's a great comment here from Jay. That was great. Katie kept up the riff and he's back before she stuck the landing.
00:36:07
Speaker
I will highlight everyone saying he's just refilling his wine glass. I wasn't. I generally went to the bathroom and checked on my daughter. And when I saw that comment, I did refill my wine glass. So I did all that pretty quick as well. So thank you, guys. Good to see you're paying attention. If I had a wine glass, it would be a problem.
00:36:25
Speaker
Well, you know, I get these things. It's 10 p.m. just gone here in the UK. But then surely, you know, working in the higher pressure world that you do, I wouldn't be surprised if you have the odd glass mid-afternoon. You know, I'm a weirdo. I'm a weirdo. I have like three drinks a year. I don't. OK. I think having to work in genocide and all this stuff, if I drink every time I was stressed, I would have a really big problem. That makes sense. That makes sense.
00:36:54
Speaker
I'm a real fun person at parties, let me tell you. Well, that's cool. Hey, you bring the fun however you want. It doesn't have to be alcohol related. So it's all good. It's all good. There's great question here, actually. Wilfred, thank you so much. Any whispers about a new UAP hearing in the next weeks or months? Not that I've heard, but I mean, guys, I'm not relying on some super secret sources. I have friends
00:37:21
Speaker
in DC. So I could be absolutely wrong. Um, I would expect a Senate hearing though. I mean, I don't think the Senate's going to be happy with just letting the house like get their, their side. Okay. Sounds good. No, that's not going to happen. Um, I would expect it, you know, as Jan six stuff has been wrapping down, I think we'll either see it in September is my guess before they recess in September or maybe the lame duck November, December.
00:37:51
Speaker
But yeah, nothing that I know about on my end, I absolutely will share if I hear anything. We appreciate that. Well, one thing I've heard as well is that the Senate, if the Senate talks, that's more important to some degree. Can you tell us why that might be? We want to hear the Senate side of things and why that adds so much more value to what we're talking about. Well, I mean, I think, first of all, the Senate, just by its design, is a much more
00:38:22
Speaker
the word I'm looking for, like reserved institution, right? So even just by design in our constitution, senators are elected for six years instead of having to go up for election every two years. So you're gonna see more steadiness in the approach, right? One of my worries with House advocates, right? Who are pushing this issue forward is they could be out of a job in a year and you might lose that voice. So I think you get a little more stability on the Senate side.
00:38:52
Speaker
The Senate's also typically more, you know, they're in charge of, for example, like approving foreign treaties. So they're typically just a little more in tune to like foreign policy and defense in general. So I think it's just kind of a artifact of how they were set up that it's going to be big.
00:39:13
Speaker
And not to mention the fact that I think we've had fantastic Hill supporters on this legislation. But I think everyone can recognize that this is really being driven at this point by Rubio and Gillibrand. And so I think maybe that is even just an artifact of the fact that Chris Mellon comes from the Senate.
00:39:36
Speaker
Right? Like there's, and maybe he has closer relationships there. So, you know, it's, it's personal, it's by design. And I think, I think it'll be really interesting. I also think that everything is being designed on a much grander scale than we can see at this point, you know, having talked to Chris a few times, he's not one to plant one tiny seed and walk away, right? Like it's a very,
00:40:05
Speaker
we do A, then we do B, then we do C, then we do D, then we do E. And so I think like looking at all of this, looking at who slipped Gallagher, the Wilson Davis stuff and why and the timing. And then we got the immunity language, you know, and then maybe we'll get a Senate hearing and then maybe we'll get, you know, like it's just what's the end goal, right? And I think that right now the end goal in the next five, 10 years eventually is some
00:40:35
Speaker
compulsion language, right? Like you have to start with voluntary information and figuring out where the legacy programs may exist and whatnot. But eventually, I think we're going to go down that path. And it's, you know, come back in five years and tell me I'm wrong. But that's where I think we're headed with things.
00:40:55
Speaker
I we've heard that before. Lou himself has said come back in five years. I think that's where we kind of headed towards. We're arrowing down towards the legacy programs. But in the meantime, we're still up here kind of thing. Damn, I had a question then.
00:41:12
Speaker
I'm going to segue into something else. You're speaking about Chris Mellon, that obviously Lou has done a lot with Chris for helping some of this language come forward and that. Now, I actually spoke to Lou today. I reached out to him. I said, Lou, can you give me a statement on everything that's going on? And I didn't hear anything. And then I saw him tweet. I thought, OK, I'll use your tweet. But then he actually messaged me back. So I got a little statement that I'm going to read out from Lou that is just for this. So I like your thoughts. Great. He knew some many.
Lou Elizondo on Truth and Reconciliation
00:41:40
Speaker
Love it.
00:41:42
Speaker
Well, you know, it's like, because I don't understand a lot of this, it's like, I normally go to either Dan or like, we've got a couple of groups going on on Twitter. And so I thought today is like, you know, I'm not supposed to live in a while or in a few days. So I'll reach out to Lou. And when I say a few days, a while, people are like, I want to.
00:42:04
Speaker
But it's funny because the message says Vinnie, I'm on the road. Here's my statement. You know, that's all good. So Lou says today is yet another indicator to the degree in which Congress remains fully engaged on this topic. The language is not only insightful, but also directive in nature.
00:42:23
Speaker
The days of stonewalling by a select few are nearing an end. I only hope when the truth comes to light that we remain focused on the issues and avoid an unnecessary witch hunt. Truthfulness and reconciliation is more important than reprisal and retribution. Believe me, I am the first one who understands personally and professionally how it feels to be unfairly targeted for speaking the truth, but we must always try to take the high road wherever possible and forgive any transgressions in favor of transparency.
00:42:53
Speaker
so I mean he always comes with them bold statements which I'm you know thank you you know thank you Lou I appreciate that you know it's so funny because when I hear that it's very much reminds me of like the truth and reconciliation commissions and like post apartheid South Africa and Rwanda and whatnot and as someone who works in genocide response I can tell you it's typically much more effective
00:43:20
Speaker
when you focus on truth and reconciliation over punitive justice, not to say that everything should be forgiven, right? If people were harmed and whatnot, absolutely. But at some point you have to, if you really want truth, you have to decide what's more important. So I agree. Yeah, look at the bigger picture. Sometimes that's more important as well as taking it away from the person, don't take it personally sometimes and look at
00:43:46
Speaker
the group it might affect or something like that. I completely, yeah. I mean, it's easy for me to say, but I know there are people like, who have been more involved in this, who are involved in this. So, you know, I have to try and look at it from every aspect. And I think, you know, it's good. And I smile because, you know, I always ask Lou for a statement and he always gives me these big, bold statements, but it speaks truth. He just, he's very eloquent and he's very, absolutely.
00:44:16
Speaker
It's almost like a politician speech. Yeah, we've heard Lou, Lou hint on that for Congress. And yeah, let's take it step by step. Now we were going through, and I'm going to bring this back up. Bear with me is Dean Johnson's article. Now I'm going to skip through a lot of it because I think we've covered some of it. I think when I read it, it said it'll take 30 minutes to read. I was like, oh my gosh, I would see some scholarship.
00:44:46
Speaker
30 minutes to read and then how many minutes to go back and read through all of it again to just understand it. So yeah here's a question then I'm gonna I'm gonna take it off screen is that we've obviously heard recently about the AARO
Classified Briefings and Advocacy
00:45:00
Speaker
or RO so many different pronunciations now to me it looks the same as last year we saw the Gillibrand amendment and all this new language come up
00:45:10
Speaker
And then we saw the DoD throw in AOIMSG, like, it's OK, we're on top of this. And then this year, we're seeing new language. And then we see an arrow come up. Like, is this just not a repeat of last year? Because surely, if we wait until the end of the year, get the NDAA passed, fingers crossed everything runs smoothly. We'll get a better office.
00:45:29
Speaker
beginning 2023. Theoretically, yeah, we'd have the UAP JPO, right? The joint program. Honestly, I read that and I was just like, really? Like, do we have to keep changing the name? I think this is a perfect example of what we talked about, right? Um, I would like to say that it's some big conspiracy to hide the truth. I think it's just dumb. Like, like truly, like, I think they just,
00:45:56
Speaker
didn't realize or didn't care that they were going to suggest a UAP name in this legislation and they wanted to create one because they did. They had to make sure that it was cooperative with the Gillibrand requirements, right? So they had to make some edits. So I think as a part of that, they did the name change.
00:46:17
Speaker
But I think it's hilarious, frankly, because there's no way Gillibrand didn't know during that meeting that they were just tweeting about that this language is in the IAA. So honestly, I have no idea. I think that there may have been a desire to not have UAP in the office name because it's a little less sexy and the media may not pick up on things as easily if they're not paying attention to it.
00:46:44
Speaker
Um, so I think it was important that they did that. And also important that, um, you know, it's UAP, but they're still saying the name of the offices and identified aerospace. The, I don't know what keeps changing underwater phenomenon. I don't know, whatever it was. And I think it's important that they want that in the name. And I think that's really, um, I mean, it's not surprising, right? Like we know this is a trans medium situation. We know that there's a lot going on underneath the water.
00:47:13
Speaker
and that they deferred that discussion to the classified hearing. But I think the fact that they really want underwater, undersea, whichever the word was, in the name, should give us all a big clue as to where these members heads are at and what they're most interested in.
00:47:35
Speaker
Do you think that the staffers, the congressmen, everybody that are having these classified briefings, would they go to these levels if it was something just drones from China and Russia? Absolutely not. I mean, look, are there some that are probably drones from Russia? I'm trying. Absolutely. Right. Absolutely. There are. I mean, we're running the BA 52 while, you know, some of our like
00:48:00
Speaker
old-style cars were on the road. There's some next gen aircraft and drones that we can't even imagine that are being tested right now by us and by other countries. But no, I think that's the biggest argument about there being fire where there's smoke here. You have so
Advice for Advocating UAP Investigations
00:48:20
Speaker
many people with vastly different out views on life and the role of the government who not only are interested in this issue,
00:48:28
Speaker
are more interested in this issue and become bigger advocates after they're briefed. And I think that says everything you need to know, because if we knew it was Chinese, for example, it would be going to another office. And honestly, they should be just as worried as it is. We find out every single UAP ever seen is Chinese.
00:48:53
Speaker
Okay, we need to address that. You know, they're committing genocide right now. Do we really want them to have this check? So I think that it's silly when, you know, career debunkers, I don't mean people that look at these things in good faith, but people who jump to conclusions always think there's nothing to this because these are people who are receiving briefings from people who do know.
00:49:20
Speaker
You know, they don't just let anyone walk on, walk in from the street and brief the Senate Intelligence Committee, you know, even smart people. So, you know, I tend to believe in Occam's razor. You know, the simplest solution is the right solution. And I think that's kind of where I follow these things. Yeah, absolutely. I completely agree. So going forward, we've talked about what's happening now, the language.
00:49:48
Speaker
Do we expect much movement between now and let's say, you know, last year we know the NDAA got passed, you know, what was it, December 27th, almost the edge of the year. Do we just sit tight now and wait? Is there anything we can do? What should we focus on between now and December this year? I think we need to pace ourselves, you know, like Lou's said a long time, for a long time, come back in five years, right? Like, I know it can feel like we want a new hearing and a new bill every month,
00:50:19
Speaker
But a lot has happened this year. And so I think, you know, take a step back, take a breath, be grateful what we've gotten this year, and know that we're set in the stage, right? We're still building. And you don't have something that happens for 70 years. In terms of the US government response, obviously, this phenomenon has existed much longer than that. You don't unravel that overnight, right? It takes time. And so much of the work has been developing relationships.
00:50:49
Speaker
within Congress and within the executive branch. And so I encourage you to work on that. Even if it's not UAP related, get comfortable calling your member. Go have a meeting in person. Read up about some of these topics. If you don't get authorizations versus appropriations, look up 101. And again, send thank yous. God, bake some muffins. Show up at their office.
00:51:17
Speaker
Probably can't eat those. You might have to end back. But you know what I mean? It's a long game. And I think we need to make sure that we don't lose sight of the end goal. And I'm partial given my political background. But one of the things that, when I was interning for Joe, one of the things he said, whether you agree with him or not, is totally fine if you don't, is never
00:51:45
Speaker
throw out something good because it doesn't go far enough. Take a tiny bit of progress and move the ball forward and then build from there. And I think that's what we're doing. I think we're slowly but surely moving the ball forward and it might not be everything we want. But you can look at the IAA as a good example. The IAA had a lot of really interesting steps forward from the NDAA, not only a few months or maybe a month
00:52:11
Speaker
weeks, I don't know, it was short after it, you know, advise creating that core group, whatever that is, I'm really interested in that core group. You know, it talked about like Corso-esque technology transfers to industry and national labs, you know, there's there's steps being made. And sometimes it's literally just a phrase. Yeah, absolutely. Walter again, baby steps. Absolutely, brother.
00:52:40
Speaker
um i just want to give a shout out i know hey it doesn't mean it's you know popularity isn't always the the be all and end all um i was just gonna give a shout out to my brother jason turner i saw him in the chat shout out jason not spoken in a while you know he's part and parcel of everything that's been going on for the past five to six years being part of the the nimitz encounter and everything jason it's always good to see you brother i love you man
00:53:08
Speaker
Um, I just remembered what I wanted to speak to earlier about that. I forgot about was this talk about amnesty and immunity. Now everyone got really excited. Like suddenly we're going to get swathes of people coming in front of public hearings, talking about secrets. Now what it was really from what I garnered was people are going to be able to go through a secure channel to talk classified about this thing. Can you, can you break that down for us a bit better? Yeah, it's, it's not as fun as it sounds. Um,
00:53:37
Speaker
Well, two important things. First of all, it is for that secure channel, right? So just because someone can report something doesn't mean we'll hear about it. We could, Congress could decide that they want to push the executive branch to declassify it and share it. But I wouldn't hold your breath on that. I really viewed it as honestly in service to this information gathering exercise.
00:54:02
Speaker
I really look at this whole thing that's going on right now, the GAO report, the reporting avenue is they're trying to get all the information they can on any existing incidents, programs, you know, technology transfers, you name it. But I think it's also important to recognize what it doesn't do, in addition to not just giving blanket ability to like go on CNN and talk about all this, is it doesn't give immunity from crimes.
00:54:31
Speaker
And I think people are conflating the two. It gives immunity from prosecution for breaking your NDA or some other non-disclosure agreement, security clearance, something. So if you go to the UAP JPO, is that what we're calling it now? Gosh, I don't know. I don't know. The UAP office. I'm just going to call it that.
00:54:55
Speaker
And report that you are involved in blackmail and intimidation and,
Book Recommendations and Closing Remarks
00:55:00
Speaker
you know, something like that in connection with one of these programs. That doesn't mean that you get immunity from being prosecuted for that. So, you know,
00:55:10
Speaker
That might be good in terms of justice that might be harmful in terms of the truth, depending on what was involved. But yeah, it's going to be interesting. And I wish I was someone in that office, but they're going to have a lot to weave through. I'm sure.
00:55:28
Speaker
The thing is, it's funny because people hear the words immunity and amnesty and my DMs suddenly fill up with, is Lou's going to testify finally? And I'm like, no, it's so much more complicated than that. And I'm sure he would, but I think the focus needs this.
00:55:45
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, if he subpoenaed to talk, I'm sure he would, but I think the focus needs to, the focus now needs to shift away from Lou. And also we talk, there are things in there about going back to 1947 and things going to the National Archives and all these kinds of things. There's so much in there. We could talk about that. Well, the one thing that I first noticed too, and I saw in 47, I was like, dang it. They left out the Trinity case, which was in 45. We could go back though.
00:56:16
Speaker
We, yeah, maybe that needs to be the next baby step too. But yeah, it's fascinating. They're empowering this, the GAO, which is essentially like a, you can think of it as like a nonpartisan, both pronouncing it arrow in my office. I like that. I like that. Let's call it arrow. Basically empowering them to go to the archives of the United States and with
00:56:44
Speaker
get access to anything, anything written. Now the obvious problem comes and something that Lou often talks about when you're talking about FOIA is not everything's written down. I, you know, and I just look at it and people get to, well, why not? Is that conspiracy? Not necessarily. I mean, in my old job, right? When I was a lobbyist, I was elected the chair of the malaria advocacy round table. I coordinated with a bunch of different groups. You think that was in writing anywhere?
00:57:13
Speaker
You know, and you can think of similar things where, you know, the conversations that were had or this or that, or if you're doing something highly secret, are you going to write a memo about it? So I'm glad they're going to have access. But again, we have to recognize the limits of these things. And that's where I think having these secure reporting channels, which will circumvent the need to only look at written documents, will be really helpful.
00:57:41
Speaker
Amazing. We're pretty much coming to the end, but I wanted to end it on a slightly more mellow note because it's been intense. I've got so much to take in. I'll do a re-watch of this. I hate watching myself speak, but I need to understand the ins and outs of what we're seeing right now within the government. Now, we've been doing Book Club over the past few months. You've joined in on that.
00:58:06
Speaker
A lot of people always ask me, what books do you recommend on the UFO subject? And I know you've jumped in and read some things. So is there anything that you'd recommend to people to read? Too many. It depends where you are in your journey. If you're just popping in, I really think you can't beat Leslie Kane's UFO's book.
00:58:26
Speaker
It's like a very good entry level, if you're a little skeptical, getting people into it to realize it's a legitimate issue. I'm now more on the consciousness aspect of things, the woo, if you will. I really think you can't disconnect the two to a certain extent. I agree, I agree. I mean, OSAP agreed to, that's why it was created the way it was. But so I'm looking a lot at
00:58:50
Speaker
like anthropology of the supernatural was something that Jay recommended to me recently, which was really good. Look at this coming. She published a photo of us recreating Baywatch. You know, she texted me the photo today and I might just post it myself. So that's what she said. It needs to happen. It needs to happen. Well, if anyone's mad at me, I'm going to blame you guys. Okay. You've got, I'll say this live on air. You've got my backing right now.
00:59:16
Speaker
Okay, I'll post it after this. It is a Baywatch logo with all of us Photoshopped into it. Book Club Baywatch. That's how we live. That's how we live. And you guys say Olaf looks like how Olaf really is. Or should be. Like, he may not have that hair, but it looks like he should be that way. Anyways, you guys will see it.
00:59:35
Speaker
So for everybody, listen, I'm not going to finish now, but Katie's, you can follow Katie on Twitter in the, in the description below after this finishes, go there. Cause you're going to see the book club Baywatch. If you want to see an amazing suit, you have to come to my Twitter. Like forget seeing high definition UFO, UAP photos. You get the book club Baywatch photo, the elusive. Why didn't we add a UFO into the sky in the photo? God missed opportunity. Someone else might do it for us.
01:00:05
Speaker
Shout out to, oh look, Walter saying book club hashtag, question mark. Walter, I'll fill you in. I'll send you the links, brother. It's all about UAP book club. It's a monthly thing we've done in the past. We're having a summer break, but we get together on Priscilla's channel. Every month we read a book and then we get together and we have a panel discussion about the book. And sometimes we even have the author on with us. We're going to get back to it in a month or so. So Walter, I'll send you the details, brother.
01:00:35
Speaker
So Katie, listen, we could go on and on. Um, we really could, but you know what? We're going to stop here because I reckon we're going to need you back on, uh, multiple times in the next few months. Are you kidding me? It's a nice break from work. So happy to be here.
01:00:50
Speaker
I really, really, truly appreciate it. I appreciate you. I appreciate everything you've done. And yeah, I can't sing your praises enough. And anybody that isn't familiar with Katie after this, go into the description, check out her socials, go and follow. You can all get involved. And this is the thing like we
01:01:07
Speaker
we can all play our part. So, yeah, Kate, if you can hang around, I'll say goodbye to everybody in the live chat. Thank you so much for being cordial and asking great questions. I will give a quick shout out to... Sean, thank you so much for the SuperSticker donation, brother. I really do appreciate that. It all goes back into the show and everything. Good to see all my friends and newcomers, and all you guys are always welcome. I'm going to be back on Saturday with James, Ian, Dolly,
01:01:37
Speaker
Danny Silver and Ryan Robbins, the UFO Jesus himself. We're all coming together. Quick shout out, guys. Spring talk. Thank you so much for becoming a member, man. Really appreciate it. Guy has been a long, long, long time supporter of me over on Instagram and everything. So Guy, thank you so much, brother. Good to see you, man. Guys, for now, we're going to call it. Do you know what?
01:02:01
Speaker
I'm going to announce, I'm going to go over and do an impromptu Instagram live. So if anybody wants to jump on, I'm going to be live on Instagram in about five to 10 minutes. But for now, Katie, thank you so much. I really appreciate everything you do. I appreciate you as a person. So yeah, thank you so much. Thanks for having me. You've made it such a welcoming place to be here. So I really appreciate you.
01:02:27
Speaker
Thank you. Take care. And everybody else, if you want to see me on Instagram, come and jump on. If not, I'll see you on the next show for now, guys. Take care. Peace.