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Reclaiming Your Narrative with Court Vox
1.7k Plays3 years ago
Two Bi Guys is now sponsored by Zencastr! You can get 30% off Zencastr for 3 months with promo code: twobiguys -- or just click this link: https://zencastr.com/pricing?coupon=twobiguys&fpr=ex42o. Start recording your own podcast or meetings today!
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Follow Court Vox on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/courtvox/?hl=en
The Body Vox: https://thebodyvox.com/
Squirm: (Objects for Sensory Experiences) www.EverybodySquirm.com
Two Bi Guys is produced and edited by Rob Cohen
Created by Rob Cohen and Alex Boyd
Logo art by Kaitlin Weinman
Music by Ross Mintzer
We are supported by The Gotham
We've talked a lot about fluidity among straight-identified people in the past -- this season, we're interviewing multiple gay-identified men who experience sexual fluidity or who are breaking down the gender binary within the gay community. This week, we chatted with Court Vox, a somatic wellness coach and surrogate intimacy partner, who identifies as queer in addition to gay. We discussed the fluidity that has long-existed in parts of the gay community, why queer people are often most attracted to other queer people, what it's like to be a "surrogate partner" and work with clients on practicing intimacy, how to explore pleasure in your body in nuanced ways and without the pressure to "perform", how accepting yourself and your desires allows you to show up for your partner(s), and how to break free from the narratives that we're taught are acceptable and reclaim your own authentic narrative. And remember to always ask for consent before peeing in someone's Cheerios!
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Transcript
Introducing Zencaster
00:00:00
Speaker
Welcome back to Two Bye Guys. I'm Rob, and I am excited to announce that our very own podcasting platform, Zencaster, has become a new sponsor of the show. Podcasting remotely can be challenging, I should know, but it doesn't have to be. Zencaster's all-in-one web-based solution makes the process quick and painless the way it should be.
00:00:19
Speaker
I've been using Zencaster for two bye guys for the last two seasons now, and it really has done that. It has made everything so much easier. I meet my guests at zencaster.com. There's a little green room so we can chat, we can go over everything. I press record and we start recording right in the same web browser.
00:00:38
Speaker
And then we chat, we can see each other on video, we can record video if we want, we can type notes to each other. It's got all the features you need. Plus, it's recording our audio locally. So it's recording my audio on my computer and my guest's audio on my guest's computer. And that's how Zencaster gives you studio-quality sound. It really sounds like you're in the same room with your guest, even though you're not.
00:01:00
Speaker
Zencaster does post-production on the audio files, so it mixes the sound, syncs the sound, it removes background noise. All these things that used to take up a lot of my time and effort, now I can put that time and effort into the content of the show instead of that busy work.
00:01:16
Speaker
So if you're thinking about starting a podcast, I highly recommend Zencaster. If you go to zencaster.com slash pricing and enter promo code tobuyguys, you'll get 30% off your first three months. That's Z-E-N-C-A-S-T-R dot com slash pricing, promo code tobuyguys, all one word, for 30% off your first three
Meet Court Vox
00:01:37
Speaker
months. It's time to share your story with Zencaster.
00:01:47
Speaker
you
00:01:52
Speaker
Hello, and welcome to Two Bye Guys. I am Rob. I'm excited for this interview today. We've done a lot of theory and identity discussions on Two Bye Guys, and today we're going to talk about that, but also about sex and intimacy and actual nitty-gritty stuff, I think. I'm here today with Court Vox. He is a certified somatic sex educator, a sex and intimacy coach, a surrogate partner intern, and the founder of The Body Vox.
00:02:22
Speaker
through which he coaches clients one-on-one, hosts workshops and retreats across the U.S., and works as a practitioner for back-to-the-body, sensuous retreats for women. He is a guide and resource to individuals of all bodies and orientations, including people in relationships and groups who are ready to find healing with embodied pleasure and to find a more truthful expression of self.
Exploring Identity: Labels and Queerness
00:02:46
Speaker
So welcome to Two Bioguys, Court Vocks. Thank you so much. Who is that bio about?
00:02:52
Speaker
Man, that's a great bio. I wouldn't mean that much. Thanks so much for having me. You're welcome. Thank you for being here. Yeah, I appreciate you having me.
00:03:03
Speaker
How do you identify what pronouns do you use? Gender spectrum, sexuality, whatever identifiers you use. Great, thank you. I go by he, him. I played a little bit with they, them, and it doesn't work for me. I really identify as he, him. And I would say my sexuality, I identify as fluid and pansexual. I wouldn't call myself bisexual.
00:03:33
Speaker
intimate or romantic relationships with women. I have and do occasionally find women that I am sexually attracted to and will have sexual relations with them from a personal perspective. And also in my work, I work very closely with female bodies.
00:03:54
Speaker
It's always interesting to ask that question because, like, you know, many of people I've interviewed on here, there's overlap between people who identify as bi and pansexual. Sometimes there's not overlap, like you identify as pan but not bi.
00:04:10
Speaker
And the reasons for that can kind of be different for everyone. So it's interesting to hear your reasons and why you use those words. I'm just curious, do you identify as a gay man also in addition to pansexual? Is there a crossover of that? Because you used the word gay earlier. Yeah, you know, I toy with the terms gay and queer. I think the way that I present is more gay, right, as a gay male.
00:04:40
Speaker
and how I feel in my body and the types of containers and spaces that I like to inhabit are more queer. I think I'm a little bit weirder than people think I am just by my photos. And I think the word queer and the concept of queer appeals to me a lot more than being a gay man.
00:05:08
Speaker
Yeah, it's too bad that my co-host Alex isn't here for this interview. He's been taking a step back from the podcast a little because he's working at the Trevor Project, but his story sounds similar to yours or at least his sense of identity because
00:05:23
Speaker
I identified a straight for a while before I kind of came out as bi and explored with men. Alex identified as gay, but then kind of realized that was boxing him in and prefers to use the word queer mostly more than anything else. Like, did that evolve for you also over time? Yeah, I think specifically when I started to study this work,
00:05:50
Speaker
and be more involved and connected to my body and my own eroticism. I started to feel like the boxes were it was too much of a box and the inquiry became why not.
00:06:07
Speaker
Like why not explore other body types and not just other body types, but the spirit that inhabits those bodies, right? And so the inquiry was, can I allow myself to be open enough to find erotic connection and soul connection with all different types of bodies? And the answer that I came up with was absolutely.
00:06:35
Speaker
cool. And so did you do that in your personal life before you made it a profession? And how did you approach that? How did you do that? How did I do that? It's easier said than done. I did it by exploring.
00:06:56
Speaker
It wasn't as hard as I thought it was going to be. I was taking a wheel of consent workshop, which is Betty Martin's work, which for anyone that's looking for something that's more of an introduction, that's clothes on, more about directions of touch,
00:07:18
Speaker
a lot around consent. It's a great workshop to start with. I use it a lot in the work that I do as an introductory and as a way to set the container. Anyway, I was taking a workshop in Brooklyn, Wheel of Consent Workshop, and
00:07:36
Speaker
there was a lot of queer women in the group. There was maybe, I want to say 20 participants total. And out of those participants, I think there was only four men or male identifying bodies. And I remember one of the women raised her hand and she said, you know, I just have no desire to be with cisgendered, straight heterosexual men. And
00:08:06
Speaker
I kind of had this moment where I was like, well, if it's not this hat men, who is it? And she kind of was like, I prefer to be with queer men or bi men. And then three other hands went up in the room from women saying, I also prefer be with queer men. And I kind of had this aha moment like, oh,
00:08:34
Speaker
I'm a queer man. That could be me, right? And so that really was a huge eye opener for me in terms of, you know, I had this kind of already always listening that women wouldn't be into me because of my queerness, but in this container, the validation that my queerness was actually wanted and celebrated was a big turning point for me.
Queerness Beyond Norms
00:09:01
Speaker
I find that so interesting. Did you get any insight at that time or later from women who say that? What do you think is behind that? I have some thoughts, but I'm curious what you think.
00:09:16
Speaker
I think a big piece of it is being connected to both masculine and feminine parts of yourself. Also having a language that is not misogynistic, which
00:09:32
Speaker
You know, I'd love to say that that's not existent in gay culture, but it's actually very, I think it's high in gay culture. In queer culture, I think feminism and femininity is really celebrated and also wanted. And so I think it's actually like a meeting of the two, right? These were also queer women, so that identify as bisexual. And so
00:09:59
Speaker
I think it makes sense because if I were to think about the type of women that would appeal to me, I think it would be those type of women too that identify as queer, that are open to all possibilities, regardless of the body that I'm inhabiting, but more of like there feels like a connection is here.
00:10:22
Speaker
Let's pursue that. Let's pursue the kind of essence in the room that we cannot quite name or figure out, and we don't need to. Let's just follow our next best instinct.
00:10:40
Speaker
Yeah, that makes a lot of sense to me. And I think for me, there was something about queerness that really forced me to interrogate my attractions and desires and everything in a way that it wasn't binary. I like this gender or that gender that maybe if people identify gay early, get locked in too. And queerness and thinking about the expansiveness of queerness really
00:11:09
Speaker
forces you to try things out and see what works and what doesn't and why and everything on a spectrum as opposed to disqualifiers. Yeah. Being queer also is a little bit of like, it's a fuck you to society, right? Yeah. I feel like gayness has become
00:11:36
Speaker
something that's almost like accepted in mainstream culture. It's been presented in television and film. You know, I call it, I have a name for it. It's homonormative.
00:11:51
Speaker
And it's this kind of mimicking of heterosexuality that gay people have moved into, which is like this very like, we're married, we have children, we have a dog, we have a house. And it's like, great, you are accepted into mainstream culture and society. And guess what? You're probably bored as fuck.
00:12:15
Speaker
And I think for some people that works really well and I don't want to dog on it, but a lot of times it gets, it's like, what are we striving for exactly? And like, why? Why do we have to have this when really queerness, there's so much more exploration in queerness.
00:12:34
Speaker
Yeah, interesting. I agree. I think queerness is sort of about pushing boundaries within yourself, within society, whatever the boundaries are. And as we expand it, we're going to keep pushing those boundaries, hopefully.
Career Transition: From Disney to Sex Education
00:12:53
Speaker
So tell me a little about how you got started doing the work you're doing, and then we'll get into what it is. But when did you realize you wanted to do this professionally, and how did you carve out the niche at the beginning? Well, I've been a very sexual person my whole life.
00:13:16
Speaker
Predominantly in my thirties, though, is when I really was like, I became just a really big whore. I'm not going to lie. Same. I've talked about this before. In my twenties, I still had kind of the shroud of HIV hanging over my head, as many people have, specifically men in my age group and older, where Truvada had not been introduced yet.
00:13:43
Speaker
And it was still kind of scary to have a lot of sex. And, um, anyway, it was scary for me. And so I didn't have a lot of sex in my twenties. I had two really long-term partnerships, one for four years and another one for five. And when I came out of the second one, um, Truvada had just been introduced and so was Grindr. Um, the kind of like,
00:14:10
Speaker
within a few years of each other. And so it was kind of this perfect storm of like, that's, I distinctly remember having this thought of like, well, if you're going to do it, now's the time, right? I'm single. There was like these protections in place that were not there before. And basically this like menu of men
00:14:35
Speaker
all over the place that were really like there at the grasp of my fingertips. So that was a big part of my journey. I think, you know, I think there's shadow sides and there are a lot of pros to social connection. You know, like everything there's shadow sides but I think there's a lot of great things that come with it too.
00:14:59
Speaker
Anyway, that was the long version. I was studying and I still study Shabari rope bondage and I was practicing with a woman at the time who was a psychotherapist and I was working at Disney and really kind of looking to leave and
00:15:22
Speaker
I was talking to her and she said, well, what do you want to do? And I said, I'd like to be a sex therapist, but not one that just talks to people. I want to be one that facilitates learning through the body and through body-based exercises and touch. And I said, well, I don't think that exists. And she said, have you heard of sexological body work?
00:15:45
Speaker
And at the time I had not. And immediately I left and I was in my car, I Googled it. And I think within a week I had signed up for that training course and then spent the next two years studying while I was working. And I also in that time became a surrogate partner intern. And I've studied Tantra, continued to study Shabari rope bondage and other forms of BDSM and really
00:16:15
Speaker
from all those things have crafted what is now my offering. Another big piece of my journey was working with my teaching partner, Pamela Madsen. And really, she has mentored me in a really immense way, not only in kind of our practice, but in business.
Therapeutic Roles: Surrogate Partner Intern
00:16:40
Speaker
And I owe her a great deal in terms of what I offer my clients today.
00:16:45
Speaker
What is a surrogate partner intern? The intern piece is there because it's an interesting program. They don't deem you an actual surrogate partner until they feel like it. So until you're an actual surrogate, you're a surrogate partner intern.
00:17:06
Speaker
And a surrogate partner is somebody that works with a licensed therapist in a triadic model. The client sees the therapist for talk therapy, and they would see me, the surrogate partner, for touch and body-based learning. Interesting. Okay, so is that a lot of the one-on-one stuff you do? Is that
00:17:30
Speaker
through that title and can you tell us about how that works? So I don't actually, I don't see a lot of surrogate partner clients, mostly because I travel a great deal and the format in which I work, which is an immersion is usually for like three days.
00:17:50
Speaker
at a time. And a lot of times surrogate clients need something that's more consistent. So to come one week and then come next week. And my schedule just doesn't allow for that. But the types of clients that I have seen and are the most common clients that come to surrogacy are latent virgins. So they are
00:18:17
Speaker
26, 30, 40, 50, 60, 70 year olds who are virgins. And normally that is because of a specific reason or experience or instance that has kept them from moving forward. And so it's a very slow and patient process most of the time where
00:18:46
Speaker
we're kind of recalibrating the body and specifically working through traumas that have kept them from experience thus far.
00:18:58
Speaker
I read that Grindr piece where the reporter did a session with you and he didn't reveal your methods, but he talked about some of the things that were sort of blocking him in sex. One of them was like feeling worthy and not feeling worthy and how to
00:19:20
Speaker
how to cultivate that sense of worth and that we deserve to be touched and feel good. And I think a lot of people, myself included, have that feeling in sex of wanting to please the other person and thinking about their needs and not always being in touch with your own needs. Is that a common thing you see? And what are the other kinds of things that are blocking people when they need some help from you?
00:19:49
Speaker
So that is a really big one, worrying about other people's pleasure before yours. And the interesting thing about that is if you're just take two people in an erotic situation, right, and you are worried about the other person's pleasure, and they're worried about your pleasure,
00:20:12
Speaker
That's like a head thing. You're in your head. You're not in your body. You're not in your physical pleasure body. And so no one is walking away feeling satiated. Like as my teaching partner, Pamela Madsen says, you're paying out of each other's piggy banks, which is
00:20:29
Speaker
you know, let them take care of themselves. You worry about your pleasure. And oftentimes it's a lot harder specifically for men to worry about their own pleasure. And a lot of times it's like, I don't even know what my pleasure is. I don't know where I like to be touched. I don't know how I like to be touched. And so a lot of the work that I do is exploration in that. You know, how do you like to be touched?
00:20:54
Speaker
Did you know that this sensation existed? Are you turned on by words and narrative? Is fantasy play exciting for you? What about role play? Do you like to be spanked? Do you like feather light touch? What if I whisper in your ear? Is that exciting for you? It's like a little bit of a menu of like what's possible for you. I think a lot of people come in and they're like, I don't even know. I don't know what I don't know. Right. And so,
00:21:21
Speaker
What happens is I present things like, well, I'm hearing you say this, and I'm hearing a desire for this. What if we tried this exercise? How does that resonate with you? Well, not so much. Great. How about this exercise? Yeah, that sounds exciting. Let's do that. And so it is a little bit of trial and error. Everything that I do is an experiment.
00:21:50
Speaker
I think that's also challenging for men is that they're in just in our culture in general, they want to, it's like a pass fail, right? I want to do really good at this. I want to be the best. What's next? How much can I learn?
00:22:06
Speaker
And for men, it's like we've got to slow down a little bit. This is not about checking things off the box. It's about can you sit with this long enough to not just understand it in your mental brain, but to feel it in your body so that the two connect and you go, oh, yes, this is what I'm looking for. This is what I've been trying to put words around.
00:22:32
Speaker
So I think that is a big issue with men. Being anxious is another one, trying to get things right. And when I look at some of the physical things that men come in talking about, whether that's disconnection from their body, rapid ejaculation, not being able to get hard as much as they want to, it all comes down to a lot of anxiety and a lot of feeling pressure.
00:23:00
Speaker
And with rapid ejaculation in particular, it's like the body is basically like, how quickly can we get this over with so I can leave? That's the message in the body.
Enhancing Relationships through Acceptance
00:23:11
Speaker
And so the work is really about, can you stay in this a little bit longer? It's uncomfortable. Yep. It's uncomfortable. Can you stay in a little bit longer? Can we find,
00:23:25
Speaker
pleasure here. Yeah, that really resonates with me because especially before I came out as bi, like when I identified a straight, I really felt that kind of pressure and performance anxiety and like I want to do this right and perform well and like be hard and come and then we're done. And like it was very, you know, about that end goal and not about
00:23:53
Speaker
the fun stuff you could do to get there or maybe you even don't get there and you just do other stuff which can be fun. And really only when I started exploring with guys did I learn how to do that and how to talk about that.
00:24:09
Speaker
But then I realized I could do that with women too. There's no reason you can't. I was just locked into these gender roles and expectations that I thought were there of me. Do you see that maybe more with straight men? I don't know if you work with any straight men or if it's all queer men, but do you see gender coming into play with that anxiety or expectations?
00:24:35
Speaker
Yeah, I think I have worked and continue to work with straight couples as well as gay couples. I think that the anxiety or the anxiousness and the willingness to please does not have gender bias. There's a through line of that with everyone. Everyone wants to feel like they have offered something to their partner.
00:25:04
Speaker
They want to feel like they're skilled and have been offering pleasure to the person that they love or just the person that they love in that moment. Right. So I think, no, it doesn't, it's not gender bias. Yeah. Have you worked with people who have like, have you worked with bisexual or fluid clients who have sort of moved through that and, and things have come up?
00:25:29
Speaker
Yeah, so I've worked with women who identify as bisexual and they're very comfortable in it. And then I've worked with women who have had no desire to be with other women. And because of this opening of their body and self,
00:25:47
Speaker
and really just the permission to explore and be curious, there are some of the women I've worked with that are curious now. It's like, what would it look like to kiss a woman? So I think that's a beautiful piece of this work for a lot of people. It's like, when you are open and when you become connected with yourself, the possibilities become kind of, the possibilities are more.
00:26:14
Speaker
I have definitely worked with men who identify as bisexual. The interesting thing is when they come to terms with this other side of themselves, which is their gay side, that they're into men and that they're comfortable with it, and that they're finally going, right, I am bisexual.
00:26:35
Speaker
It's interesting to hear them say the relationship with my wife or the relationship with my girlfriend or my sex with women has improved. And it's not surprising to me because what it is, it's like, it's a confidence and it's like a self-acceptance and a knowing that I am a whole person and my desire is not stupid. My desire is not shameful.
00:27:02
Speaker
And when you can accept that in a way that's somatic, that's felt in the body, how you show up for your partner, partners, is going to be different.
Overcoming Stigma in Sexuality
00:27:17
Speaker
And so it's not a surprise to me that it's helped in other relationships. Right.
00:27:23
Speaker
It makes perfect sense to me and is exactly what I experienced too, which was like before the couple years when I kind of knew I had thoughts about guys, but I wasn't out. Those years I had a lot of struggles in my relationships with women and in sex with women. I was so nervous. I felt like I had to prove something. And then as soon as I started coming out,
00:27:48
Speaker
I was so much more at ease that then when I did have sex with women again, it was so much better because my attitude and outlook had changed and I was not trying to prove anything.
00:28:08
Speaker
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Speaker
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Speaker
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00:30:17
Speaker
You know, I think everybody's path is different. Um, and there's a lot of different options, right? I think being authentic and honest with where you are with other people is important. You know, you know, if you're seeking online hookups or seeking connections with people in, um, communities that you meet,
00:30:44
Speaker
You know, speaking like, you know, this is something I'm exploring right now. This is the first time I've kind of dipped my toe in it. And I'm really excited about it. And do you want to help me?
00:30:55
Speaker
helped me explore more. And then I think, you know, there's the professional route, which is, you know, coming to work with somebody like myself. And, you know, even working with traditional sex workers, and really exploring that way, if that feels like a safe enough container for you. I think, you know, there's a lot of different options.
00:31:21
Speaker
is like sex and intimacy is such a foundational part of our lives and is so important and yet it's you know seeking help and sex therapy is is still kind of stigmatized and not yet as accepted as like seeking a psychotherapist but it does seem to me to be like equally if not more important. Like do you see that stigma when people come in to see you or how do you get over that like hump of
00:31:49
Speaker
maybe people feeling ashamed that they're even exploring this stuff, because I know at the beginning I felt kind of ashamed of my sluttiness and desires, but now I'm embracing them.
00:32:03
Speaker
I think some of it is time, right? Allowing yourself to like sink into it a little bit more with each experience, kind of going, yeah, this is, this is okay. I'm safe enough here. I'm not hurting other people. I'm not hurting myself.
Workshops vs. Individual Sessions
00:32:19
Speaker
I feel good. Those are important. Awareness is to have, you know, I think
00:32:25
Speaker
people feel a lot of different ways when they come to work with me. I'd like to use the word nurse cited, which is like a combination of nervous and excited, right? Because, you know, many people know why they're coming and they know a little bit about me, but they don't know exactly what we're going to be doing together. And to be honest, a lot of times I don't either. It's not a lot of like creativity, a lot of,
00:32:54
Speaker
taking information as it comes in and then pivoting, right? I always put together kind of a curriculum for the time that I'm working with someone. And most of the time by the end of day one, I have changed it completely. And it continues to change based on the information that's coming in. And that's kind of the beautiful thing about working with somebody one-on-one.
00:33:22
Speaker
But I think I didn't answer your question. I think to answer your question, it's a lot of permissioning people over and over again. People get the sense like, oh, this is a safe place to explore. This is a safe space to share. I don't have to be mindful of my words here. I don't have to worry if court is going to judge me. It's really a judgment-free space.
00:33:48
Speaker
It starts at the very first intake call when somebody reaches out and we have a discussion. It starts there, not when they walk in my door. It started way before they've even showed up. So we've talked a lot about the one-on-one stuff you do. Tell us a little about the group workshops you run.
00:34:12
Speaker
how are those a different experience for people that participate or what can a group experience unlock for people that maybe isn't necessarily unlocked individually? So I think there's definitely pros to both.
00:34:28
Speaker
you know, some of the men that I work with one-on-one in private, they are higher profile humans and they don't want to be sharing this experience with other people because there is a fear that it would get out past this container. But I think one of the biggest reasons to work in a group space is to heal
00:34:53
Speaker
relationships with other men and also foster community with one another. I think what's interesting about gay men is that they can be really mean. Gay men can be really mean and there is a sort of
00:35:09
Speaker
year that exists, myself included, about walking into a really big gay space and being surrounded by all these people that are potentially judging you. And so to create a space that's like, we're not doing that here, we are actually here to be open with one another,
00:35:30
Speaker
vulnerability is wanted and accepted and invited. Your sensitivity is welcome here. Your desire, your eroticism, all of it is welcome here. And that's a different space to be in. It's almost like foreign, the feeling is foreign. I've been in it and I'm like, this feels strange and also so good at the same time. My workshop,
00:35:58
Speaker
In March, I think the biggest difference between the workshop and the retreat
00:36:04
Speaker
is that there's only gonna be one exercise that we do together that is clothing optional. So most of the time people will be dressed for this three-day workshop. In the retreat, nudity is probably gonna be happening every day.
Commitment to Sexual Wellness
00:36:21
Speaker
And so getting comfortable with your naked body in group settings and also working with a practitioner and also working with the other men who are in community with.
00:36:34
Speaker
So a lot of these workshops are men, groups of men, gay or bi men. But I know you also do the work with women. How is it different? How is the work different? And like, are they looking for different things? Or are they kind of looking for the same things? I think there's a lot of similarity with, you know, what men and women are looking for in terms of
00:36:56
Speaker
feeling connected to their bodies, reestablishing desire or libido, right? A lot of times low libido and low desire really translates to boredom. People are just bored. They've been with the same partner for ages. Their eroticism has changed, their desire has changed, and they haven't found the time, energy, or space to explore it. And there's also that other thing, which is they don't know what they don't know.
00:37:26
Speaker
Um, but they know that there's something more. Um, and I think that's a big driver for a lot of my clients, male or female is that they know that there's something more and they want it. And so they're willing to, to set out on this exploration to figure out what it is. And the truth is there's always more. Once you have more, you're going to want even more. Um, it's like having a really delicious meal.
00:37:53
Speaker
It's not like you have that meal and go, you know what? I feel full. I never want to eat that meal again. It's not how it happens. When you have a really delicious meal, you want it again and you want more of it and you want more of those experiences. And that's kind of what good sex is and what good erotic experiences look like.
00:38:15
Speaker
I think the biggest difference that I experience with men and women is that women are really committed to the work. They're committed to changing neural pathways in their bodies, which takes time. I've worked with a group of women over the past year
00:38:34
Speaker
really like consistently I'm talking like they've done private work with them they've come to to back to the body retreats and really to see the difference of who they are as human beings is drastic and it's exciting it's exciting to see the shifts that are present in their bodies
00:38:56
Speaker
The men that I work with tend to come for three days and then I don't hear from them. I don't hear from them for sometimes a whole year. And then sometimes they come back and sometimes they don't. Sometimes I don't know what the impact of my work is on people. I don't like to bother people.
00:39:19
Speaker
I don't like to be like, hey, how are you doing? Like, how's your life going? Really, you know, I leave the door open. So if people would like to reach out to me, if they need my support, my door is always open. And the goal of my work is not to keep people coming week after week or month after month. It's really to give them a set of tools to take into their lives that they can use on their own.
Body Image and Self-Acceptance
00:39:51
Speaker
I have a handful of listener questions. Want to hear some of those? Yeah. Here's one about body image because you talked about the containers you create and the spaces and body positivity. So here's the question. A listener said, I've been acclimating and accepting myself in a bare identity
00:40:10
Speaker
which has been hard having mostly dated women who have been varying degrees of understanding. I feel like there are some LGBTQ circles where being a larger guy is not welcomed. And of course the leather kink scene is usually more accepting, but any advice on welcoming bodies?
00:40:28
Speaker
You know, I think there's kind of been this movement prior to now around body acceptance and love your body that's kind of been damaging, right? It's like, you know, if you don't love your body, then you're, you're not in a good place. Like you need to strive to love your body and accept your body. And the truth is that it's going to be, you know, I'm just going to speak from an eye place. The acceptance and love of my body is a roller coaster.
00:40:58
Speaker
There are some days when I look at myself in the mirror and I think, fuck, who is that? You are one sexy piece. And then there's days where I'm like, oof, I need to lose 10 pounds. Or, oof, how did I get so chunky in my middle? Or, man, like the bags under my eyes are real big today. And so it's kind of this,
00:41:23
Speaker
acceptance of the fact that you're not always gonna love your body. And I think it's like coming to terms with your body or becoming friendly, becoming friendlier with your body. I think one of the biggest things that I learned doing this work is that I have a love of all different kinds of bodies.
00:41:50
Speaker
And it's not from a visual perspective, it's from a somatic felt place. I love the way that bodies feel in my hands.
00:41:59
Speaker
And that could be really dense muscle bodies. It could be thin bodies. It could be a body that's really fleshy and has a lot of fat on it. I can find pleasure in that. And that's about me. And so to this person, I would say, can you find pleasure in your own body? Can you feel your body and go, ooh, that fleshy belly feels so good to me.
00:42:30
Speaker
I think that's an important piece. Can you find own pleasure in your own body? And look, there's going to be communities that love your body. There's going to be people that really love your body and celebrate it. Stick around with those people.
Reclaiming Self-Narratives for Mental Health
00:42:45
Speaker
And then there's going to be people that are always going to be naysayers and peeing in your Cheerios.
00:42:51
Speaker
You know, those might be not the healthiest people to be around. Yeah, but what if your kink is peeing in Cheerios? If your kink is peeing in Cheerios, just maybe you should clear it with the other people first.
00:43:08
Speaker
Yes, consent before peeing in the Cheerios always. I've never heard that, but that's a nice way to talk about don't yuck someone's yum or something like that. Okay, last question. This one's about mental health. It's another listener question. Someone said, I'd love to hear more experiences of the impact of mental health that recognizing one's sexuality can have.
00:43:34
Speaker
I know for me, it's been a huge step forward in me processing my anxiety and self worth, recognizing my own internalized homophobia unlocked a lot of things in my head. So there's not like a question there. And we, we kind of touched on it about how like, accepting and recognizing certain desires unlocks a lot. But do you have any other thoughts about how mental health is connected to these things we feel in our body and the work that you do?
00:44:04
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, I think, you know, as you connect more and more with your body, and, you know, he named or they named internalized homophobia, and I'm going to actually include internalized misogyny, I'm going to include internalized racism. These are all things that live in our bodies. There's an incredible book called My Grandmother's Hands by Rose Momenicam.
00:44:26
Speaker
which talks about internalized racism and how it's somatically held in our bodies. I highly recommend that book, but it's this sense of having an awareness of all these scripts around us that
00:44:43
Speaker
have been implemented, that have been learned, really. And it's kind of a reclamation of things that are yours, you know, and it's an inquiry to ask yourself, is this mine? Am I racist because this is my story? Or is it because it's something I learned? Am I misogynist because this is something I learned? Or is this who I am? Am I homophobic?
00:45:10
Speaker
because this is something I learned and who I learned it from, or is this something that is mine, right? And so it's kind of an inquiry of reclamation of like, what is mine, right? And, you know, just as you stated, coming into your bisexuality and accepting that was a reclamation of what was yours, was always yours.
00:45:35
Speaker
But there was a narrative around you that was like, this isn't possible, this isn't okay, or whatever the narrative was. But at some point you said, that is not my narrative. And you reclaimed what was always yours. And so what I would say to people is,
00:45:55
Speaker
The reclamation of self, of body, of body autonomy is such an important piece for mental health. Because without it, there's not a connection between the two. You're living someone else's narrative. And so the invitation is to inquire within yourself, what is my narrative? And if I'm living someone else's, how do I reclaim it for myself?
Conclusion and Thanks
00:46:26
Speaker
Yeah, that resonates with me so much. You know me very well after only talking for 45 minutes. But, you know, I think we all are really taught a lot of things about sex and relationships that we internalize and
00:46:44
Speaker
fulfill these roles and kind of go along with expectations. And everyone, I think, has something inside that they hold inside. And hopefully, for many of us at some point, we can reclaim that and be open about it and not be ashamed of it. And I think that's a nice note to end on. Sometimes I ask, is there anything that we didn't cover that's on your mind or that work you do that you want to share? It's OK if there's not. But sometimes I don't know and I don't know.
00:47:15
Speaker
Good, you're using my language, I love it. Actually, so my teaching partner, Pamela Madsen and I, we launched a sensation toy company called Squirm, and it's online, it's everybodysquirm.com. Right now we have one product, it's called the Scratch and Tickle, it's a pair of Rabbit for Gloves and Claws, and we plan to grow the company solely based on sensation play. So,
00:47:43
Speaker
start to really see some things happen in February for Valentine's Day. Cool. Well, check that out. We'll put links in the show notes. We'll put links to Court's website and some of his upcoming workshops and retreats. And, yeah, thank you again for being here on Two By Guys Court. It was really nice to meet you. Nice to meet you as well.
00:48:10
Speaker
Two Bye Guys is edited and produced by me, Rob Cohen, and it was created by me and Alex Boyd. Our music is by Ross Mincer, our logo art is by Caitlin Weinman, and we are supported by The Gotham, formerly IFP. Thanks for listening to Two Bye Guys.