Transcript
Speaker: Hello everybody, welcome back to Artists of the Way.
Speaker: I'm John, the host.
Speaker: Today I'm joined by a friend of mine, Pastor Craig Appel.
Speaker: Craig and I met doing theater.
Speaker: We've been in a couple different shows together.
Speaker: I've had a couple really good experiences.
Speaker: And I wanted to invite Craig on to continue our conversations about artists and the church and get his perspective as a long time pastor, longer than I've been alive.
Speaker: Craig is a wonderful guy, has a really kind heart, really cares deeply for the gospel and for people.
Speaker: We talk a lot about the church and the way it kind of should work internally.
Speaker: We talk about its relationship with artists and to the world, how maybe they can reach people.
Speaker: the world a little bit better, specifically artists.
Speaker: And then we chat a little bit about some of the topics surrounding church hurt and ways that maybe both the church and people who've been hurt by the church can walk through that, maybe in a way that could lead to a little bit more reconciliation.
Speaker: I think it's a really rich discussion.
Speaker: I'm super excited for you guys to hear Craig's heart.
Speaker: Again, he's a lovely man, and it was a joy to have him on the podcast.
Speaker: I'm super excited that you guys are joining us for this episode.
Speaker: Thank you.
Speaker: Yeah, how are you doing?
Speaker: I'm doing all right.
Speaker: For an old guy, keeping busy and enjoying the season of life.
Speaker: That's awesome.
Speaker: Is there any big things that you're working on right now or are you kind of just enjoying the slowness and rest?
Speaker: Yeah, I'm working with a small church right now.
Speaker: about interim ministry as they look for another pastor.
Speaker: I haven't begun that with them yet, but we're in the discussion process.
Speaker: I think that's probably coming up.
Speaker: Cool.
Speaker: Have you done an interim pastor type thing before?
Speaker: I've done it several times.
Speaker: Is that...
Speaker: difficult because I know at least from my perspective from a congregation it's just a weird transitionary thing.
Speaker: Yeah it is.
Speaker: I don't know if difficult is the right word.
Speaker: There's always challenges because it's not just being there and filling the pulpit.
Speaker: It's helping them work through issues that they may have.
Speaker: their pastoral candidate doesn't walk into a hornet's nest or a nest, you know.
Speaker: And sometimes that's a little edgy because they don't always recognize that this could be a problem.
Speaker: Right, yeah.
Speaker: So, yeah, but on the whole, I enjoy it.
Speaker: I really do.
Speaker: It gives me opportunity to meet different groups of the Lord's people that are in there, and that's fun.
Speaker: Cool.
Speaker: Sweet.
Speaker: So steering our direction towards art.
Speaker: One of the questions that I always ask and that I'm curious about for you, what are some ways that you feel like God's using art in your life right now?
Speaker: I'm more a consumer right now than a producer or involved personally.
Speaker: Art is always something that gives pleasure, that...
Speaker: stirs my thinking, that opens my mind to various perspectives.
Speaker: And so I enjoy reading a great deal about it.
Speaker: About the only thing I'm really doing art wise
Speaker: That would be recognized as art.
Speaker: I think there are things that aren't necessarily recognized.
Speaker: I'm attempting to do some poetry, which I've never really done before.
Speaker: I have a pastor friend who posts online poetry, and I was reading some of his, and I'm thinking, you know.
Speaker: Maybe I should give a little thought to that.
Speaker: It's something new for me.
Speaker: But we'll see.
Speaker: I don't know that I'm going to have any published works anytime soon.
Speaker: That's fair.
Speaker: At least for me, it's a new way to think and express.
Speaker: Are you trying to do like...
Speaker: Are you trying to keep it to a specific meter or structure?
Speaker: Are you doing more of like a free verse type thing?
Speaker: Yeah, it's more free verse.
Speaker: Cool.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: That's neat.
Speaker: Well, I hope so.
Speaker: And at the very least, as I say, it's something that is stretching my thinking a bit.
Speaker: Totally.
Speaker: I see value there.
Speaker: I haven't done a lot of poetry.
Speaker: I've dabbled here and there, but they usually turn into more monologue things.
Speaker: But Shay writes a lot of poetry.
Speaker: Does she?
Speaker: Okay.
Speaker: And it is like she has like... I think it's primarily for her a way she just unpacks what she's processing.
Speaker: And so it's very interesting to just see her phone that's just thousands of notes of poems.
Speaker: And she's like, most of these I will not publish or put out there.
Speaker: But just...
Speaker: framing them in that artistic way helps you kind of process and pull those out.
Speaker: Yeah, for sure.
Speaker: Yeah, that's super cool.
Speaker: So, one of the reasons I had you on, other than just wanting to chat and talk about this song, because it's great to talk to you again.
Speaker: It's great.
Speaker: I'm kind of doing this series as I can get people on the idea of art and the church.
Speaker: So I'm trying to get some perspectives from clergy and some perspectives from artists and kind of just unpack what's going on in that relationship there.
Speaker: So...
Speaker: You've been a pastor for probably longer than I've been alive.
Speaker: Yeah, I think so.
Speaker: Can you give us kind of like an overview of what that process was for you of like feeling that calling and just kind of what your story is as far as being led into ministry and just kind of a brief overview of what that's been?
Speaker: Yeah, sure.
Speaker: Originally, I wasn't looking towards the pastoral ministry or ministry in a formal sense at all.
Speaker: I had a cousin who was literally a world-renowned pediatric surgeon, became Surgeon General of the United States under Ronald Reagan.
Speaker: I was enamored with him and the kinds of things that he was doing.
Speaker: That was the direction I was looking.
Speaker: But through various avenues, in particular the pastor of the church I grew up in, the Lord redirected my thoughts.
Speaker: through the encouragement of that pastor and opportunities that he presented to me, even as a freshman in high school, I began to think this is perhaps what the Lord would have me do.
Speaker: So I went to college
Speaker: believing that the Lord wanted me in some kind of a ministry, but through experiences there, became convinced it would be the pastorate.
Speaker: So that's it in a nutshell, really.
Speaker: The call is, you use the word calling, it is a calling, but it's
Speaker: It's something internal, something, I don't want to sound overly mystical, but something supernatural where it's just a conviction from God.
Speaker: And it's difficult to explain, except I truly believe that God, by his spirit and circumstances and people, appointed me.
Speaker: Yeah, that's awesome.
Speaker: I find that...
Speaker: endlessly fascinating just the way god redirects us towards things that we don't expect and then when we get there or when we're headed there we're like oh yeah i like it feels like you had no other choice but that yeah i've definitely sensed that in my own leading towards ministry um yeah it's just the way that he works and leads people and handles it differently with different people it's just so fascinating it is that's awesome
Speaker: So you've been a pastor for many, many, many years, but you and I met doing theater and doing art.
Speaker: First of all, I guess, just what was your draw towards art in general and maybe theater more specifically since that's where we met.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: I hadn't been involved in anything theatrical since high school.
Speaker: I was involved in several plays there.
Speaker: But the church I was pastoring in Muskegon, Pris and John MacDonald were attenders there.
Speaker: They were members there.
Speaker: And one Sunday morning after the service, Pris came up and she said, you know, Master Arts is working on a play right now, Lamp at Midnight, and I think you ought to try out for it.
Speaker: And I said, oh, really?
Speaker: She said, yeah.
Speaker: She said, I think you ought to do that.
Speaker: So I did and was given the role of Galileo and just loved it.
Speaker: And that I was hooked.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: You know, and not only by the joy of it, but also once Pris hooked you, she didn't look.
Speaker: And so that was really my involvement with master arts.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: So, yeah.
Speaker: Was there some particular thing that hooked you or was it just the general experience?
Speaker: Like, was it just so rich or was there a couple things that stood out of like, man, this is great for my soul or for my heart that I'm loving here?
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: The story, the camaraderie of working with the other actors, that was something that I really thoroughly enjoyed.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: And just the ability, I think, to use a gift that I think God had given me, but I really hadn't used much.
Speaker: And was finding pleasure in that.
Speaker: Totally.
Speaker: What are some ways...
Speaker: as you've now done a lot of theater and engaged in other, with other forms of art that you feel like your work as a pastor has informed the art that you've made or vice versa, that the art you've made has informed your work in the church?
Speaker: That's a great question.
Speaker: That really is.
Speaker: Um, how do I say this?
Speaker: Uh,
Speaker: in preaching, preaching is a performance.
Speaker: And I hesitate to use that term because I've listened recently to a preacher that a friend of mine said, hey, you gotta listen to this guy.
Speaker: He's an itinerant traveling evangelist.
Speaker: And he said,
Speaker: his preaching really is a performance in the worst sense of the word.
Speaker: I mean, he begins every sermon with exactly the same prayer.
Speaker: And at different points in the sermon, there's very stilted action.
Speaker: And then it's, you know, I just, so that's performance in a very negative sense.
Speaker: But,
Speaker: But to relate biblical truth and to do it well takes effort, takes work.
Speaker: I was just with a group of pastors where we were discussing reading scripture in the church.
Speaker: and how poorly that's done generally.
Speaker: That those who do really don't read well, even if they get all the words right, it's not communicated well.
Speaker: And so that sense of performance, how can I communicate, genuinely communicate this truth?
Speaker: Well, you well know the difference of somebody in a play just mouthing the words and someone really from within generally conveying what they're saying.
Speaker: And so in that sense, preaching is a performance in the best sense of the word, where if you're a character in a play,
Speaker: you want to have a backstory in your mind at least.
Speaker: It's never expressed, but in your mind.
Speaker: And so what you say comes out of a perceived experience.
Speaker: I think that has to be true in preaching also.
Speaker: Even in theological passages, like even in Paul's epistles, where he's not telling the story per se, to convey the truth there,
Speaker: And to do it well, it needs first to come out of your own experience.
Speaker: Sometimes I preach, I think every preacher, teacher does, you sometimes speak beyond your experience simply because this is so high and exalted.
Speaker: As Paul says in Philippians, I'm not there yet, but I press on.
Speaker: Sometimes you do that, you have to do that.
Speaker: But to communicate well,
Speaker: And like bring the truth to it.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: And portray that.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Because your own life is part of the message.
Speaker: Totally.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: That we had Easter recently and we had the Easter vigil at our church, which was the first time we've done it at our church.
Speaker: I went to my wife's at her Catholic parish a couple of times.
Speaker: Okay.
Speaker: And I just love, it's just, I'm like, it's just four hours of church.
Speaker: How can you know?
Speaker: It's four hours.
Speaker: I've never been to one.
Speaker: Oh, they're fantastic.
Speaker: If you're able to, I think it's great.
Speaker: So it's, it's four hours.
Speaker: Well, it can be four hours.
Speaker: I think our Anglican one was like two, because we were like, we have a lot of young families and the children are not going to want to be there forever.
Speaker: Yeah, sure.
Speaker: And so I read a passage and then the person next to me would read a psalm and then Shay read one of the prayers.
Speaker: And we just kind of did that for probably about half an hour that it was.
Speaker: And I know at Shay's Catholic parish, they would intersperse it with some hymns.
Speaker: And then it's like dim and candlelight and then all the lights come up and it's like, Jesus is resurrected.
Speaker: Everybody, we're going to celebrate.
Speaker: But so in that I was asked to read the scriptures, which I was excited about because I was like, oh my gosh, I get to tell the story of salvation.
Speaker: That's great.
Speaker: But I was like, man, there's some, as an actor, I'm really excited about the things here, but should I like act this?
Speaker: So I like went up to our priest who's like,
Speaker: He's 30 something.
Speaker: He's kind of like a nerd punk type personality.
Speaker: He has like tatted up sleeves.
Speaker: I hope he sees this.
Speaker: He probably will.
Speaker: So I went up to him, and he saw Hamlet, and he geeks out about the acting thing and the arts thing.
Speaker: And I went up to him, and I was like, how much do you want me to go for it?
Speaker: Because I could really go for it and do voices and shout.
Speaker: And do you want me to go for it like that?
Speaker: And he was like, yes, just go for it.
Speaker: I was like, all right, well, Father Chris told me to go for it, so I'm just going to go for it.
Speaker: So Satan had a voice, and I was like,
Speaker: sobbing at points and I like just and but it it was not like a fake false thing and there was a lot of people afterwards that was like man just the power of yes that and I was just like and it's so affirming because I feel like a lot of times we can think of performing like you said as being false but
Speaker: and I think I've said this before on the podcast, so people are probably tired of me saying it, but I feel like there is a certain level of, I know this is true.
Speaker: Um, so it's okay for me to put that effort and that emotion into it, even if I'm not really feeling it right now, cause I know it's true and it communicates truth.
Speaker: It can be, even if it's just in worship, it communicates what I truly believe and feel to God.
Speaker: Um,
Speaker: So yeah, that's awesome.
Speaker: That's cool.
Speaker: So art and the church.
Speaker: Obviously right now I feel like there can be a lot of tense relation, relational things there.
Speaker: There's a lot of artists that don't feel welcome in the church.
Speaker: There's a lot of churches that are very hesitant towards art or some forms of art.
Speaker: Um,
Speaker: Just sort of bird's eye view, what do you feel like the role of art and artists in the church is?
Speaker: I guess to some degree it depends on what you mean by art and artists.
Speaker: Someone who sings, just whether it's a hymn or a contemporary song or whatever.
Speaker: They're an artist and that's art.
Speaker: And there again, as I said concerning preaching, I think it carries the most weight and impact when it comes from their own lived experience and conviction.
Speaker: But as far as the formal art, such as...
Speaker: using theater in the church for example.
Speaker: The church I'm attending in Holland, we've not had that, but this Sunday for the first time they're going to have, I don't know what form it's going, I was asked to participate in it, but
Speaker: for various reasons could not.
Speaker: And so I don't know what form it's going to take, but a woman in the church who's been involved in theater wanted to start a small group that would from time to time.
Speaker: So I'm looking forward to it.
Speaker: It's kind of a first venture.
Speaker: And I'm hoping, I'm sure it will be received well.
Speaker: And I think there's plenty of room for it, especially in this day and age.
Speaker: When...
Speaker: when people are very visually oriented, especially young people.
Speaker: You know, the morality plays centuries ago were performed for a society that couldn't read.
Speaker: We live in a society that doesn't read.
Speaker: So we're back kind of to the same place where to communicate well with some people, we need to visualize.
Speaker: And I think there's a need for that in the church, not just room, but a need for it.
Speaker: That is very interesting.
Speaker: And that's a factor I hadn't thought about before.
Speaker: Because I think if you were to think of our sort of monolithic stereotype of an evangelical church or evangelical Christianity, we've put, and I think rightly so, such an emphasis on the word of God and scripture.
Speaker: And as we should, it's our anchor.
Speaker: I haven't thought, I guess, as much about, we don't, like, I feel like people my age, if they're reading a book, they're probably actually listening to an audio book.
Speaker: That's at least me, because I'm just, I'm just, and so, and I mean, we're watching things all the time.
Speaker: I think we are very visually and auditorially stimulated.
Speaker: So then if we were to walk into what you would stereotypically think of as like, okay, it's kind of a gray or brown building and there's not a lot going on visually and we're going to read scripture and sing some songs and they might enjoy the songs, but they might kind of be in and out on the preaching because it's not stimulating the things my generation has kind of been molded into.
Speaker: That's very interesting.
Speaker: What, so some, the, the church in Holland, one thing I think is cool with that is it sounds like this is a person who is passionate about this, who started it.
Speaker: And it wasn't like the church top down being like, guys, we need a drama ministry.
Speaker: Do you feel like, and some of this might be conjecture on how God's working in churches.
Speaker: So do you feel like churches need to proactively pursue, um,
Speaker: ways outside ways of spreading the gospel outside of how they've traditionally done it.
Speaker: Um, in the sense of like a theater ministry, do, do, you know, if we were to use that as our example, should churches think about, Oh, we should, we should get on this.
Speaker: Or do you think maybe it's more of a, if somebody is passionate about it and the, the, the congregation or somebody in there has that ability and skillset, then utilize that.
Speaker: But, um,
Speaker: Like, I don't know, should churches be thinking about trying to implement and draw those things in more, or should they more just go off of the skill sets of their people?
Speaker: I think in most churches, that's a pretty broad, generalized statement, but in many churches, I think there are people who have skills to communicate truth in a more...
Speaker: dramatic way that aren't using them because they don't see the opportunity.
Speaker: I think churches can put a toe in the water, so to speak, by discovering some of these people and
Speaker: and not launching into a full blown, we're gonna have a theater ministry, but develop some people who perhaps through dialogue, dramatic dialogue, read scripture, with a narrator, and as you said, give Satan a voice, do this kind of thing.
Speaker: And in that way, introduce people to, years ago,
Speaker: in one of the churches I pastored, we decided to have Dawn Day come and do mime.
Speaker: We had never done anything like that before.
Speaker: My mother-in-law, who was alive at that time and attending the church, was an old conservative Dutch lady.
Speaker: And she didn't like the idea at all.
Speaker: Dawn came and did it.
Speaker: And after the service, my mother-in-law said, that was so good.
Speaker: And I said, mom, that was mine.
Speaker: She said, it was?
Speaker: Because she was seeing something, you know, the idea didn't appeal to.
Speaker: We're going to do theater.
Speaker: No, we're not going to do theater in the church.
Speaker: But when she saw how it communicated, she loved it.
Speaker: That's great.
Speaker: I wonder if...
Speaker: Maybe more of the onus should be on artists to make ourselves available to the church.
Speaker: I think that can certainly help.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Because, well, I think about, I did a traveling troupe with Master Arts for a long time, and then, you know, COVID, nothing's ever quite recovered the same after that.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: That was a resource that was available for a long time.
Speaker: And then that opens doors to resources and to conversations like you were talking about where churches can dip their toes in and where they can start to get to know people within that community.
Speaker: Yeah, that's great.
Speaker: We also had one of the traveling groups for Master Arts come and do a full play on a Sunday evening, Driving Miss Daisy, which was wonderful.
Speaker: We had quite a few people from the community came.
Speaker: I think it's an underutilized, for many churches, it's an underutilized art form that can really have impact.
Speaker: Something that's cool about that too is if it's coming from the artist as opposed to from the church, I feel like if you're crafting something from the church, you're going to, even if it may or may not be true, you're going to land on it has to have some kind of message in it.
Speaker: And I think a lot of times that can pigeonhole what they're doing artistically, whereas if they're just bringing in artists,
Speaker: the church can look at it and be like, does this have some themes and things that we like that we just want to put on as an event and to connect some people, as opposed to feeling like this has to be something that purposefully draws people into the gospel.
Speaker: Artists can just create the art and say, this is the art we've made and we've made it to glorify God.
Speaker: And we want to bring it to the church and serve the church in it.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: I think, you know, just for sheer joyful entertainment,
Speaker: Why do we always, again, I'm absolutely committed to the gospel and the word, but I don't know that we necessarily always need to tack a salvation on the end of it, you know, or any kind of heavy theological message, except just to give thanks to God for gifts and skill and joy, you know?
Speaker: I love that.
Speaker: That's great.
Speaker: So thinking about artists themselves, um,
Speaker: I'm sure we both probably know many people, having been in theater, who are really disillusioned with the church, who've been hurt by the church or feel like there isn't a place for them in the church.
Speaker: I have so many friends for whom that's the case.
Speaker: As you've known these people and been a minister yourself, are there ways that you think
Speaker: the church could improve or ways where you think the church could, I guess it's just such a difficult thing to approach and try to reach those people and share the gospel and bring them into what would hopefully be a healthy church.
Speaker: Are there ways where you think the church can get past that boundary or that speed bump?
Speaker: to kind of help reach those people who are disillusioned by the church specifically?
Speaker: I guess it depends on the cause, the root of their disillusionment.
Speaker: Are they disillusioned because the church will not accept and include and positively view their art?
Speaker: Is that why?
Speaker: Or are they disillusioned because...
Speaker: They don't like a particular teaching of the church or the people aren't friendly enough.
Speaker: So I guess it depends on where the disillusion comes from.
Speaker: If it's truly because they don't feel accepted as artists, I think perhaps what you suggested before to put themselves forward a bit and find that, that,
Speaker: small area perhaps in which they can use their art, maybe will help bring about some change.
Speaker: If the church is not open to having some artistic theatrical, for lack of a better term, presentation on a Sunday morning,
Speaker: Can they do it in the children's program?
Speaker: Can they do it in vacation Bible school or whatever and start to use their gift in that area and slowly begin to bring about change?
Speaker: One of the things that I have found difficult as a pastor
Speaker: is how easily people become frustrated with the church for all kinds of reasons and pack up and go somewhere else.
Speaker: I'm especially frustrated.
Speaker: I can understand every church has problems and people do get hurt and the church needs to address those things.
Speaker: Absolutely.
Speaker: But sometimes where no offense has been given, people take offense.
Speaker: They get bent out of shape over something.
Speaker: Rather than going to the right people and talking about it and working through it, they leave.
Speaker: I'm always concerned when they leave and don't go anywhere else.
Speaker: That to me is a deep spiritual problem.
Speaker: That says...
Speaker: They have completely turned off my love for Jesus Christ.
Speaker: Well, you have a problem then.
Speaker: You don't love Jesus Christ enough.
Speaker: And we're instructed in Scripture not to forsake the assembling of our... It doesn't say we've got to go to church on Sunday morning.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: But we should be competing with the Christian people in some way.
Speaker: So that's always a concern to me.
Speaker: In this day and age...
Speaker: it's a lot of frustration with the church and I understand that to some degree yeah but it also concerns me deeply are there ways or or like tips I don't like the word tips because that seems like it should be snappy and easy to do but uh insight into for just members of the church um
Speaker: either who know people in their church who have now left church and are not attending church or, um, just through different, different ways have met people who are like, yeah, I'm a Christian, but I'm really done with the church.
Speaker: And I'm kind of questioning my relationship with God.
Speaker: That's a, I mean, that's a very difficult, tense, uh,
Speaker: minefield filled things to walk through.
Speaker: Do you have any, do you have any experience or thoughts or insights to share with just lay people who have to walk through that with their friends and should obviously as, as a Christian people engage with them in some way?
Speaker: I think it's important that they give their friends opportunity
Speaker: to get their questions or issues out.
Speaker: Not in a gossip way because that does damage.
Speaker: But someone come to them with concern that we're not seeing you.
Speaker: I have a sense that you're upset that you've been hurt.
Speaker: And to talk with them and encourage them
Speaker: not just to pack up, but to go to the people they need to go to, to the person who, scripture's clear, that if someone is caught in a sin, it says, okay, you who are spiritual, restore them, that's the goal.
Speaker: And so, I'm spiritual and I'm hurt, I'm leaving.
Speaker: That's not the biblical pattern, that's not the model.
Speaker: And Scripture says, you know, you go first on your own.
Speaker: We read in Matthew, you go first on your own.
Speaker: And if they don't listen to you, you take a brother or sister with you.
Speaker: You know, it's not gossip.
Speaker: We want to settle this between us because this does not help us and it doesn't honor God.
Speaker: There's not enough of that taking place in the church, either from the leadership or from the laity.
Speaker: Someone leaves and
Speaker: See ya.
Speaker: Where do you think that comes from?
Speaker: Do you think that's like a cultural, are we like, oh, we don't want to rock the boat, so we'll just leave?
Speaker: Or do you think it feels like there isn't an avenue open in the structure we have as like an American church for that?
Speaker: I think a lot of times that's true.
Speaker: We haven't really convinced people that they are able to come and to talk about with the leadership, to talk about their concerns.
Speaker: And so they wind up talking about them with other people and that creates unrest.
Speaker: Somebody who's never thought of the problem before now has thought about it.
Speaker: And yeah, I think some of it's...
Speaker: Intimidation, you know.
Speaker: Boy, I want to go and talk to the pastor.
Speaker: It's hard, also it's not rock the boat.
Speaker: Maybe that's some of it, but I think also it's...
Speaker: there's a certain percentage of our culture that likes to be victimized, to play the victim anyhow.
Speaker: And I've got an issue here with the church and they did me dirt and they owe me an apology and so they brood on this.
Speaker: And of course that's not healthy.
Speaker: So it's a complex thing.
Speaker: The church I'm attending in Holland, I'm not on staff there.
Speaker: I was on the church council.
Speaker: And we had a particular member of the church who was extremely disgruntled and upset and had made it known.
Speaker: I went and sat down with them on several occasions and said, you know, I know you have some deep concerns.
Speaker: pick out the three that are most important to you.
Speaker: And let's sit down and talk about these.
Speaker: And let me see if I can understand where you're coming from and help you understand what's going on in the church.
Speaker: I think that kind of thing is essential.
Speaker: Not just to let people go.
Speaker: Oh boy, am I glad they're gone because they grow old all the time.
Speaker: No, no.
Speaker: Sometimes in a family we have...
Speaker: brothers and sisters that are hard to put up with, but we, we work with them and we love them.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Do you think the onus for that should be more on the pastor and like the, the, the elder or, or board to say, we're seeing somebody that's
Speaker: attending less or is seeming disgruntled, should more of the onus be on them to approach?
Speaker: Do you think?
Speaker: I think both.
Speaker: But yeah, definitely the leadership.
Speaker: If they see somebody has left,
Speaker: They need to know why.
Speaker: Maybe there really is an issue they're not aware of.
Speaker: So they need to know that.
Speaker: But also, out of concern, as shepherds, for one of the sheep, they need to be concerned enough to go and say, where are you?
Speaker: Unfortunately, in many, many churches, elders do not eld.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: You know, they get together and, you know, and decide if we're going to buy a new coffee maker and how much it's going to cost, you know, but they don't really deal with the spiritual issues in the church.
Speaker: And so that's a whole nother issue.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: That's how you choose church leadership and what their qualifications need to be and what their responsibilities are.
Speaker: Totally.
Speaker: I can totally see how that can intersect with some of the things we've picked out, though.
Speaker: Like, I feel like if you tend to have...
Speaker: more of a community of leadership and store instead of like the monolithic pastor specific leader that might make it feel a little more accessible where it's not like there's the one guy that's running the ship but rather oh it's this community of of people that are leading us and caring for us and one of them is paid and and and
Speaker: has the skill set of being a pastor and is sort of, you know, singled out as the shepherd.
Speaker: But these are also all spiritual leaders, not just business leaders.
Speaker: And I think that's a problem that our culture has created.
Speaker: The New Testament model.
Speaker: Paul, after he planted churches, went back and appointed elders in the church.
Speaker: The elders were the pastors and there was always more than one.
Speaker: And so it was a joint responsibility of shepherding the flock.
Speaker: One of them typically would bear the primary responsibility for preaching.
Speaker: I struggled with that for quite a while when I first went into ministry.
Speaker: I thought, where is the biblical model for what I'm doing?
Speaker: Getting paid to be the pastor.
Speaker: And I finally came to the conclusion
Speaker: that Paul speaks of the elder who is worthy of double honor, especially those whose ministry is preached.
Speaker: And I thought, that's who I am.
Speaker: I'm an elder.
Speaker: And I have the double honor and responsibility of being an elder, but also preaching and teaching.
Speaker: And so I'm supported in that.
Speaker: Again, some of the problem is we don't have elders who are truly pastors.
Speaker: And so it falls on one person.
Speaker: And that's not good.
Speaker: That's not healthy.
Speaker: Churches need to develop elders who will... They don't share all the responsibility, but together with the pastor, they oversee the spiritual needs.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: Yeah, that's rich because I like the way that you said...
Speaker: they're not, it feels like they're not pastors and they should be.
Speaker: Any role that's leadership in the church is some kind of pastoral thing at some point.
Speaker: I think deacons, you know,
Speaker: Your ecclesiology varies from church to church.
Speaker: We have deacons that bear responsibility for the physical needs.
Speaker: They decide if we're going to buy the coffee maker.
Speaker: The elders don't do that.
Speaker: The elders have other issues.
Speaker: We have that kind of a dichotomy in the church where I attend.
Speaker: That's awesome.
Speaker: We're talking a lot about the church community and stuff.
Speaker: which I'm great with.
Speaker: Are there things in your experience in arts and in theater where you've seen rich things happen in that community that you think the church could learn from?
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: One of the things in master arts,
Speaker: that comes to mind immediately when you ask that.
Speaker: There was a play I was involved in, and Master Arts has always been open to anybody coming and auditioning and having a role.
Speaker: In this particular play, there was a woman who was a lesbian.
Speaker: Which my theology, okay, I'm speaking only for myself, and my understanding of the word of God says this is not the design that God established.
Speaker: This is not the will of God.
Speaker: But she had a role in the play.
Speaker: And was well received.
Speaker: Now, whether everybody knew, I have no idea.
Speaker: But she was well received by the rest of the cast.
Speaker: Mm-hmm.
Speaker: And that I thought was excellent.
Speaker: I think to accept people as they come and let them participate,
Speaker: where they can, that does not, I think there are limitations as to where you use an unbeliever in the church.
Speaker: For example, you don't let them stand up and preach.
Speaker: They don't believe.
Speaker: And I think there are limitations, but to receive people and let them be part of what's going on to the degree that they can, I think is important.
Speaker: yeah and i saw that in master arts you know and uh to me that that instance stands out as something that was very positive yeah i love that i think a lot of times i think it goes back to what we were talking about with like messages in something that the church is making i think maybe sometimes we feel like when somebody comes into the church
Speaker: We have to make sure, I didn't mean we do, but we get so caught up in it.
Speaker: We've got to save them.
Speaker: We've got to get them to Christ and get them to the cross.
Speaker: And yes, but also that's God doing that.
Speaker: We're just tools.
Speaker: And I think sometimes we try and put the cart before the horse in that of like they walk in and we're like, great, let's get you, let's get you plugged in.
Speaker: And oh, this is, this is your thing.
Speaker: We're going to fix that thing.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Whereas I just, I always go back to Paul saying God's kindness is what draws us to repentance.
Speaker: Mm-hmm.
Speaker: And I agree with you.
Speaker: I think that's a model I've seen several times at Master Arts or just in artistic communities in general of like, okay, yeah, this person is not necessarily, at least from our perspective, living a life that aligns with God's will.
Speaker: But it's not our word.
Speaker: It's not...
Speaker: our place in welcoming them into this community to be like, now, just so you know, one of the things about this community is that we don't like this.
Speaker: So it's, it's okay that you're here, but we want to, I feel like we always feel like we have to set that boundary line and let them know, but they probably know already if you're, you know, if they've looked on your website, most likely they can discern this.
Speaker: Is this like, if we're speaking specifically about LGBTQ plus community as like an example, um,
Speaker: But and I think part of that, too, is it's hard.
Speaker: Like I I I try and do that, but it's really hard to just be like, it's OK that I'm not always saying something to this person and that I'm just loving them.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: But I mean, it's difficult.
Speaker: It is.
Speaker: But with any, you know, I.
Speaker: There are certain sins that Christians, I don't even know how to qualify Christianity anymore.
Speaker: Evangelical Christians or Bible believing Christians or anyhow, there are certain sins that Christians, they're at the top of the list.
Speaker: These sins.
Speaker: And we feel sometimes compelled to make it
Speaker: clear to you, as you just said, that we don't tolerate murder here, or this or this or this.
Speaker: Yeah, those things are sins.
Speaker: But
Speaker: but so is the fact that this guy verbally abuses his wife.
Speaker: And I mean, yeah, when we preach and teach the scriptures, those sins come up and the word of God addresses them.
Speaker: And that's our responsibility is to do that.
Speaker: But to single out somebody and say, you're not welcome here because of your sin.
Speaker: I think that's so wrong.
Speaker: I absolutely agree.
Speaker: One of my favorite writers on the whole topic of the LGBTQ plus community and theology with that, his name's Preston Sprinkle.
Speaker: And one of, yeah, I love when he's talking about.
Speaker: Oh, I'm forgetting the chapter in Romans, but whatever chapter in Romans is that it mentions men sleeping with other men.
Speaker: He's like, okay, yes, like he does his whole dissection of the language and everything and where he lands is, yes, I think that that's saying it's a sin, but it's also highlighting pride and greed and envy.
Speaker: And those are things, if you're preaching this from the pulpit and talking about like sins of Sodom and Gomorrah and all the various things that were there,
Speaker: Don't single out the one.
Speaker: Talk about all of it.
Speaker: And don't single out the person, but share with the whole community.
Speaker: This is the thing that we as the people of God should be.
Speaker: Yes.
Speaker: And this person's sin may not be my sin, but my sin is just as egregious in the eyes of God as their sin is.
Speaker: And my sin...
Speaker: Were it not for Christ, would send me to hell as quickly as anybody else.
Speaker: And I think that that posture, I think some people can take that posture and be like, see, I do bad things too, so you should recognize your bad thing.
Speaker: But I think the importance for us is the humbling of that, of...
Speaker: We are just as much in need of Christ and God and his love and his grace as this person is, and we are the hands and feet of God.
Speaker: So we should share that and let his kindness draw them to repentance and just be open to be his tool for whatever small part of the work he's doing.
Speaker: The glory of Christ, John says in the first chapter of his gospel, he says, and we beheld his glory.
Speaker: The glory as the one and only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.
Speaker: Both.
Speaker: One...
Speaker: or the other is not sufficient.
Speaker: One or the other is a corruption.
Speaker: Both.
Speaker: Needs to be truth, but there needs to be grace.
Speaker: And it's interesting to me that grace is mentioned before truth.
Speaker: I don't know that I preach that too hard, except if you're not showing someone grace, they're not gonna listen to your truth.
Speaker: But I feel like that's when it has the real power.
Speaker: It's not just you.
Speaker: It's not just us saying everything is okay.
Speaker: But it's us saying this is what is true.
Speaker: You know, maybe you qualify that with as I understand scriptures or whatever.
Speaker: But this is what I understand is true.
Speaker: But I love you.
Speaker: And yeah, I don't think you're aligning with truth.
Speaker: that doesn't affect our relationship because I love you and I care about you.
Speaker: And that's what Christ has done for me so many times.
Speaker: For me also, John.
Speaker: For me also.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Wonderful.
Speaker: I have a couple questions I want to ask before we wrap up.
Speaker: Sure.
Speaker: We're getting near our end here.
Speaker: First, I'm just curious, are there artistic experiences, things that you've made or created that really stick out to you as impactful just in your life that you've been like, oh, this was just such a rich, rich thing to be a part of?
Speaker: Hmm.
Speaker: I've had opportunity over the years here and there to do narrations on various, and all of them have been Christian musicals, that kind of thing, which I've always, always enjoyed.
Speaker: In terms of theater, that's because I enjoyed so much of it.
Speaker: Perhaps the most personally impactful play I've been involved in with Master Arts was the Book of Job.
Speaker: It was also the most difficult thing I've ever done.
Speaker: King James Englishman.
Speaker: Oh my.
Speaker: Yeah, that, but also, you know, also...
Speaker: Job, you know, the horror that his life was at the beginning where he loses all of his wealth and all 10 of his children on the same day, and you know, and his wife is nagging him to curse God and die, you know, and Pris MacDonald's saying to me,
Speaker: you have to have a backstory that feeds into that.
Speaker: I said, I haven't got anything like that.
Speaker: And she said, think of the most horrible, tragic things in your life and use those as you approach this, you know, and that made it extremely difficult.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Um,
Speaker: And yet, the ending of that story is so wonderful.
Speaker: So that was tremendously impactful on me.
Speaker: Other things, I don't know.
Speaker: Occasionally, I've done a sermon in character.
Speaker: Those have been fun.
Speaker: But...
Speaker: Yeah, I don't know how to answer any more than that.
Speaker: That's good.
Speaker: So one of the things I try and do with the podcast is I just want to build and offer some resources for people who are wanting to deepen their faith or grow as artists, because I know as a young artist, that was something I needed.
Speaker: What are some resources or things you would recommend for people who are trying to either grow and deepen and enrich themselves as Christians or grow as artists?
Speaker: to me read read read everything that catches your attention um uh
Speaker: Read artistic works, read poetry.
Speaker: If poetry doesn't do it for you, find an author who communicates artistically, Wangren or those kinds of things.
Speaker: To deepen faith, I can only recommend to someone my own
Speaker: my own resources that I'm currently using.
Speaker: Right now I'm reading John Piper's book, Providence, and it's about that thick.
Speaker: I mean, this is the rest of my life.
Speaker: I'm gonna be reading this.
Speaker: But I've had it on my shelf for ages and a young man I know had been reading it and he challenged me to read it and I'm so glad he did.
Speaker: It's just impacted me hugely.
Speaker: Providence,
Speaker: Piper begins talking about the absolute sovereignty of God, that God rules over everything in creation.
Speaker: Anything that happens, he either does or he permits.
Speaker: It all goes back to him.
Speaker: He says that's sovereignty.
Speaker: But he said providence, the providence of God, is that everything God does, he does for our good and for his glory that we might find our joy
Speaker: And I'm just barely into the book.
Speaker: Wow.
Speaker: Another resource that has been... As a matter of fact, I've given away, I think, half a dozen of these books.
Speaker: And I don't often do that because I can't afford it.
Speaker: So don't contact us.
Speaker: Yeah, really, you're not going to get one.
Speaker: But this book has so heavily impacted me.
Speaker: It's...
Speaker: It's simply called Praying the Psalms.
Speaker: And it's by a man by the name of Daniel Henderson.
Speaker: He takes all 150 psalms and he gives you a little background, a little synopsis of them.
Speaker: But then he works through each one of them using the pattern of the Lord's Prayer.
Speaker: He says it begins with reverence.
Speaker: Our Father, hallowed be your name.
Speaker: Okay.
Speaker: And then our response, your kingdom come, your will be done on earth as it is in heaven.
Speaker: Then our requests, give us this day our daily bread.
Speaker: And then our readiness, lead us not into temptation, deliver us as we go out into the world.
Speaker: And then he doesn't use it, but I like the King James version that ends with rest.
Speaker: For yours is the kingdom and the power and the glory forever.
Speaker: I can rest in that.
Speaker: Well, he takes that framework and he works through the psalm.
Speaker: And he says, so as we just read the 23rd psalm, he says, what does it tell us there about God himself?
Speaker: Mm-hmm.
Speaker: What does it tell us about God himself?
Speaker: And he picks those things out and he says, so worship him.
Speaker: Worship him for his presence.
Speaker: Worship him for who he is.
Speaker: Then what's your response to who he is?
Speaker: Express that to God.
Speaker: What are your requests based upon who he is?
Speaker: And not only, and he, this is the pattern and that has just, I don't use it every day.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: I use it probably more days than not during the week, but it's changed my prayer life.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: It's, it's no longer me just coming to God with a list of all the things I want him to do.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: You know, but it's, it's,
Speaker: It's interaction with God.
Speaker: And I do a prayer seminar that I've had privilege to do quite a bit where I tell people that I really believe that
Speaker: Prayer and scripture reading are to intersect.
Speaker: That too often we have two monologues going on.
Speaker: God speaks to us and that's his monologue and then we speak to him and that's our monologue.
Speaker: And they just pass by each other.
Speaker: They do.
Speaker: That it's when the two intersect and we begin to have a conversation about the things God has raised.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: that really we begin to have intimacy with him.
Speaker: And to me, I'm an old guy, and that's something that I've just so recently come to understand and cherish and appreciate.
Speaker: And I ask the Lord, you know, why didn't you show me this?
Speaker: But that to me is something...
Speaker: that I, as I have opportunity to talk with young pastors, I've given some of these books and I say, you know, that's the most important, not praying the Psalms only, but the most important thing you can do for your life and your ministry is to converse with God and interact with Him about what He says in His Word.
Speaker: There's nothing more important.
Speaker: because that's what changes us.
Speaker: It's like Paul says in Corinthians, he says,
Speaker: As we contemplate his glory, he says, he changes us with ever-increasing glory which comes from the Lord, who is the Spirit.
Speaker: That's what changes us.
Speaker: Time spent literally in the presence of God, and that's not easy.
Speaker: I think that's life-changing for anybody and everybody, whether artist or pastor or...
Speaker: Ditch digger.
Speaker: Yep.
Speaker: Our life is to flow out of our intimacy with God.
Speaker: Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker: Yeah, and too often I get caught up in other things and that's lacking.
Speaker: Yeah, it's work.
Speaker: I feel that.
Speaker: Yeah, totally.
Speaker: Well, this has been lovely.
Speaker: Well, it's been good to talk and enjoy.
Speaker: I've enjoyed it too.
Speaker: It's been wonderful.
Speaker: Thanks for coming.
Speaker: No, no, my pleasure.
Speaker: Thank you for asking me.
Speaker: Yep.
