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Ep. 187 – “Kissing & Petting & Not Intercourse:” Pastor Robert Morris Explains It All
428 Plays11 months ago
This week we’re talking about the developing story surrounding pastor Robert Morris of Gateway Church, a multi-campus Texas monstrosity boasting over 100k congregants. Cindy Clemishire is a brave woman who has accused Robert Morris of molesting her from 1982 to 1987, beginning when she was just 12 years old. Although she has sought justice against Morris multiple times, Cindy has watched in frustration and despair as he dodged nearly all consequences for his actions and become a prominent national figure in the Evangelical world. All that began to change just a couple of weeks ago thanks to this blog post… Let’s hope that Cindy finally gets the justice she deserves for the disgusting crimes perpetrated against her!
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Transcript
Introduction and Summer Vacation Stories
00:00:00
Speaker
um I learned to lie and manipulate because I also had rejection. I didn't want to be rejected. So I looked for the girls that would be the most susceptible and I learned how to spot this in girls.
00:00:33
Speaker
Hey, everybody, we are back with another episode of Growing Up Christian. I'm Sam. And I'm Casey. And I just kicked off my summer vacation. whoop I ah school ended for me on Monday, ah June 17. It was great. I had worked the week had the weekend went back for a half day, which felt like a total waste of time for everybody. But you got to get your 180 days in. So I was just glad it was a half day, but dude, ah, fuck. I went out with some people after work. Uh, as we, we did the same thing last year, occasionally I'll go out with some of the people after work, uh, that I work closely with, have a few drinks at home, whatever. Um, so the town I work, so I've talked,
00:01:29
Speaker
I did a more candid talk ah about that girl that my wife and I took care of for a little while, um several months ago. i mean It's been a while since at this point. I don't i don't quite remember the timeline,
Challenges with Former Student
00:01:48
Speaker
to be honest. but ah For people who weren't listening then, um it was a former student of my wife's after she graduated. She was 18. She was in and out of like foster care type things. She was in group homes.
00:02:05
Speaker
um and we so After she graduated, she had nowhere to go, nothing to do. like Her situation was pretty bleak, so we we decided to let her move in with us. um She was had a lot of serious mental health challenges. ah After she was no longer living with us, she got a borderline diagnosis, um which you know we had talked with her psychologist and ah DCF and all these guys. You don't have to be around her too long to know that that's what you're dealing with. um Incredibly challenging.
00:02:50
Speaker
She had she made three attempts on her life while she was living with us. And then she when she left, it was one of the last after the last times that she had an attempt on her life and it was She ended up in a home for a while for like to deal with that kind of stuff. So ah that's the short version of this the story. um she turned she got as This is pretty typical behavior for someone who has not yet begun to deal with their BPD diagnosis. so
00:03:24
Speaker
um She turned volatile on my wife and I. It was just a lot of texts about how we were the worst people who ever existed, and this is all our fault. um And then months and months go by, and my wife might hear from her again. And at one point, it was like, well, um actually, I got this diagnosis, and I'm doing really well now, which was we were you know skeptical of ah what that meant. um
00:03:55
Speaker
And through this, how do I say this succinctly? Basically, my wife works with a person who knows a person that's working with her. um And all that kind of came together towards the end of the school year and more might have been shared than it should be. But essentially, like my wife had been hearing from her again. And we found out that she was looking at, you know, being displaced as far as a living situation goes again.
00:04:30
Speaker
um And, you know, the normal, like that a pretty typical pattern of behavior would be to reach back out. ah try to be like rekindle things, say, I'm sorry, do the things that you got to do to re start rebuilding a relationship. um and And we were suspecting at this point that she's going to be looking to try to ask to stay with us again, um which will not, that just won't be an option. um I don't know if that makes me shitty or if people who are listening to it think it doesn't make me shitty, but definite that's just not, that's not something um's fault that's just not something I'm capable of handling at this time. But anyway, all that preface, um, I forget that she is staying in the town that I work in, but I don't do a lot in the town that I work in other than work. And then I go home. So we're we are out.
00:05:24
Speaker
and everyone left and me and one of my co-workers who he's just a cool guy that I haven't really gotten to know super well outside of work and you know we talk at work here and there but marginally, um, based on, you know, what we're doing and where we're at. So, uh, everyone wanted to scatter pretty early. He goes, Hey, do you want to just grab one more drink? Uh, there's like this, it's like a kind of a hotel bar. It's like a lounge. It's a cool place to hang out. Um, I was like, yeah, I'll go for one more drink. I'll grab some food. We'll chill for a bit. I'm talking to him. And then at the corner of the bar, I hear a voice that I am very familiar with.
00:06:06
Speaker
And it's the girl who lived with us. And I'm just talking to the dude and I see her. i don't see like We don't make eye contact, there's but we're the only two people sitting at the fucking bar at this point. So there's no chance she didn't see me. ah my All I was hoping is that she didn't see me, see her. So I'm talking to my colleague and all of a sudden like, He's talking, he starts kind of looking at me weird while talking and he stops, he goes, are you okay? I was like, yeah.
00:06:43
Speaker
Dude, the color just drained from your face and you look like you saw a ghost. I was like, it's fine, don't, like, I, I'll, talk I will give me, just give it a second. So he keeps talking and I'm just kind of looking at my food and looking at him and then going right back to my food, not doing the normal thing where you kind of just look around here and there. I'm like very calculated and where I'm looking. I know that she leaves the area and I was like, holy shit, dude. That was like, so I gave him a little bit of the story, but that dude, I've never felt like such an insane level of anxiety in like dread and
00:07:25
Speaker
like I this is the last thing on earth that I don't I don't want her when she left she had a lot of horrible things to say about me and and I don't whatever maybe I'm not being critical enough on myself but I don't think any of them were warranted it was all shit like he I always hated her. I never care. I was I made her feel uncomfortable. And like we were getting worried that she was going to try to like spring some real fucked up shit about. Like going in the direction of me making her uncomfortable. um Terrified things going. Yeah, I remember you talking about it at the time and
00:08:15
Speaker
Dude, I was so worried for you. I mean, even that aside, just like, you know, the, the, the suicide attempts and stuff, like, you know, that that in your house and like, you got little kids there. And yeah, I mean, it's just, guys, there's so many things that could that could go terribly wrong, you know, Yeah, I felt like I lived in hell for a year. like i you There was no going home and feeling like that's that's your like place to feel like you can relax and it was never there. Like I'd be out watching TV and she would just come out and sit behind like my house is small, my counter is behind my couch. She would just come and sit at the counter and then start talking to me about everything going on in her life and all of her drama. And I would, I'd turn the TV off, I would listen, I would talk to her.
00:09:10
Speaker
Like, I'd drive her around. and i As far as I could do, or as far as I could tell, i was I was trying my absolute fucking hardest to be ah a good, like, support. um And so, like, When she tried to spin it to say that I always hated her and never did anything and I made her feel uncomfortable, I was like, all right. That's the last, I never, I was like, you know to my wife, I'm like, you can stay in touch with her to whatever extent that you feel is appropriate. If you want to go out for a coffee with her and be someone that she has access to to talk to that's a stable adult, great.
00:09:54
Speaker
uh at maybe at some point it could get like if she wanted like you know if she wanted to come over for dinner if that becomes it something that would be appropriate again cool like that shit's not off the table for me uh but i It's like it's going to be a while. Like she has to do a lot to show that she's doing well and in that she's working towards having appropriate relationships with us after she fucking burned all the bridges. And because she still had no concept that of like what she put us and my fucking kids through. um And my kids don't have like a they we insulated them really well from it. um But either way, I was like when I saw her, I was like,
00:10:43
Speaker
That's a feeling I've never felt, that did that drop, I felt cold. I'm like, this is the experience that people talk, this is the feeling people talk about when they like go to a haunted house and they say they felt like that cold dread come over them. i my Oh my God. It was the Holy Spirit. it Yes, it was up could have been that. ah It was God trying to present themselves in a way ah that would maybe Would open me back up in a way that I've previously been closed off to you but goddamn did not imagine like you getting in your car putting on some terrible like post-punk whatever band and Driving home and all of a sudden just like ah a disheveled head pops up out of the backseat It's a belt around your neck or something there i Anything good
00:11:37
Speaker
he but Oh my god, I was like, I was afraid that she would try to like talk to me or something. And maybe she has a level of self awareness where she knows that that wouldn't be a good idea. And if she did, I would be like, Oh, wow, I didn't see you there. But hearing like my coworker talk about what I looked like and what my like, physical reaction was to it. was funny. um I gave him some of the backstory. He's like, Jesus Christ, dude. And that just, she just pops up here of all places, just like bar backing at this like hotel bar that nobody's at. I'm like, I wanted to go to the management and be like, you're going to, you might want to like,
00:12:23
Speaker
This is someone who was never able to hold down a job because of how like emotionally volatile she was. Everyone else was always wrong. Every boss she had was always terrible. and it was like She always had good reason for either why she had to quit because it was too emotionally traumatizing to work at McDonald's or whatever the fuck. But I was like, God, this can't be happening right now. I just was here to relax after my last day of school. And if this ends up being some sort of catalyst for her, like, trying to inch her way back into my life, I'm gonna lose my fucking mind.
00:13:06
Speaker
But as far as I know, she didn't see me see her. So she can just keep it in her mind that that and and if she assumes that I intentionally did that, she is right. And if she assumes it's because I hate her and was a terrible person, she can be wrong. I just am not ready for that in my life again.
Pet Health Concerns with Loki
00:13:26
Speaker
So. Here we are. But that was a giant, shocking surprise.
00:13:33
Speaker
So we had a we a little bit of a stressful weekend. So we got we went out running around, you know, like sometimes late it, you know, is dusk or whatever. We'll just go out and drive some of the like back roads and look just look at like birds and plants and stuff like that, you know, like raccoons to club to death. Yeah. normal romantic stuff, yeah normal country shit. So we come back, you know, after dark or whatever, and ah like pull into the driveway. And so we have two indoor cats. And then we have an outdoor cat, Loki, who he we've had him for like, he's 11. And when we got him, he was like, he could fit like in the palm of your hand. He was the tiny little guy.
00:14:23
Speaker
He's always been just like this spunky, funny little dude. And has lived in a lot of different places with us and stuff. And he's like a tough little guy. Like- 11 is old for an outdoor cat, especially I feel like in your area. There's so much shit that can kill cats, dude. Yeah. He's pretty smart. And like he he's like ah you know a hardened serial killer. Just really enjoys murdering things. And he's had a bunch of different things like he broke his femur when he was little like came like walked back to the house with a broken femur. Then he had to be like all like wrapped up for you know weeks on end and stuff and he. ah
00:15:10
Speaker
He would disappear at times. Like he'd just leave for a week, week and a half. You know, we lived in several different places where, you know, we hadn't been there long. You wouldn't think that he would know where he was at, but he would just be gone. And we we went out, put up posters. We looked everywhere. We thought like it. Hawk got him or something. and right He's got a real gravelly voice and he's always like real snuffly. So like one night you'd just be like sitting there with the window open or something you'd hear like.
00:15:43
Speaker
is He's back the sound of feline leukemia Yeah So we came back to the house and he's like underneath one of the cars and it's so pot it's just been like miserable here for like five days just sticky and hot and He's breathing like really heavy with his mouth open panting, you know, which is not you don't normally see cats pant and Uh, he, you know, we don't see him all the time. Like you see him in the mornings usually, but sometimes not even then, you know, he shows up when he feels like it. And he's got about 50 different places where he takes naps during the day and stuff. So like he's panting and stuff. And I'm like, God, he is really skinny. Like he looks bad, you know? So we like scooped him up, took him to the, uh,
00:16:35
Speaker
like the 24 hour vet, which sucks. It's they're so bad. Because what day was this? This was Friday night. Right. I. I feel like that kind of this kind of shit always happens on like a Friday night or Saturday. like ah We were talking about that. Yeah, we were texting about it. But for me and my experience owning animals, the only time anything horrible or concerning has happened where you feel like you need to see someone immediately is on a weekend when the vets closed.
00:17:09
Speaker
Yeah, that's like Saturday afternoon is when my dog shows up just covered in blood. Yeah, you're like, Where is it coming from? Where's the hole? But so we we took him in and you know, he's an old cat. And like, you're right, like outdoor cats don't live super long. So like, you're just thinking like, I have a feeling they're going to tell us this is it, you know, so they took him in the back and he wasn't, you know, because he wasn't breathing, like they put him in like an oxygen chamber, which is basically just a fish tank.
00:17:41
Speaker
you know yeah where they're pump you know, full on oxygen into it. Iron lung for cats. Exactly. So they take us into this room and you know, it's like not cheap for the exam in the first place. No. that should um They make like several trips back out to the waiting room and they're like, okay. They charge me for you for, they like keep the, they keep track of how many steps they make and they bill you for the steps too. Yeah. They're like, okay, so we need to, you know, we need you to sign this authorization form. This authorizes us to administer over $600 in care, you know, and I'm like, ah okay. This one authorizes us to have sex with your cat when we're back there. This is like, this is an NDA that we got your cat to stamp. Yeah. Let's talk about that in a little bit. But if we can, I mean, you your cat signed it, dude.
00:18:36
Speaker
Right. So we sit in the waiting room. We were there for like hours, you know, and it's late. I mean, we got there at like 10 o'clock. So it, I mean, we didn't leave until one in the morning. yeah We're sitting in this little like separate room. They brought us into the separate room and the doctor comes in and she's like, Um, look, you know, your cat's not breathing and he's like dehydrated and this and that and the other. And, uh, you know, there's a few different things that this could be like, this could be, you know, severe heart disease. And he could be in the first stages of like heart failure, or it could be this, and this could be wrong and this, and this could be wrong. It's like you m for cats building.
00:19:23
Speaker
Yeah, they gave us like three things that could be wrong with them and all of them were like terrible, you know, and they're like, we, we won't know anything until we run like this full battery of tests, but the tests are $1,200. Jesus. Every one of us, every one of us has at one point sat in a room and talking to people and being like, man, people spend so much money on these pets. Like there comes a point where you just got to say, oh, no, I'm not going to spend any more on them. And, you know, maybe that's just the end for them or whatever. And, you know, nobody does. Everybody goes, OK, you know, you have to feel a responsibility to at least know what's wrong with it. You know, you do. I mean, it's so funny because when my cat, my cat who died a few months back was dying. You know, I made
00:20:16
Speaker
some choices that I maybe not wouldn't have thought I would, but I know that my line is way shorter than my wife's. And there's no shittier feeling than when you're sitting in an office and they look, they tell you what it is and they go, so like, what do you want to do? And you look at each other and I'm like, I know what I want to do is way different than what you want to do. And they go, we'll give you a few minutes to talk it over. And I'm just like, well, I guess that's the end. And she's like, what the fuck? I'm like, Oh, I, sorry. I don't know. I guess I thought we were going somewhere different with that. And he was, we knew like we, we did the test. Like, I think that's where I would always draw the, like, I will, I'll do the tests. Now I didn't do the emergency vet. So that they go, we want to test for these things. It'll be $500. I was like, Oh my God.
00:21:09
Speaker
that's ah That felt like a lot, and that's probably more what it would be if you weren't at an emergency vet situation. You could do like a panel or whatever, and you're like, all right, well I'll do that. but And they ended up being necessary, which I'll get it, you know, but yeah but yeah, like the emergency vet is always like the worst place to have to do all this stuff. yup And so we authorized the test and they're like, now look, All three, like any of these conditions, like these are going to require daily medication for life to treat. And hes he's an outdoor cat. He does what he wants. He doesn't do anything he doesn't want.
00:21:50
Speaker
Yeah, i'm like he was very much on his own terms. And like, in the past, we've had problems with him where like, you know, we've had to give him medicine or something like that, or do something that he didn't like. And he just, he just shunned us for periods of time. You know, he shunned April for like a year. I don't even remember what it was. He just, for some reason, he was like not interested in being around her for like a year. Then he settled down. by his own rules but she says she's telling us this and she's like, and you know, like outdoors is a bad place for him. Like he needs to be indoors and he can't, he can't be inside with our other cats because one of them just bothers him relentlessly.
00:22:33
Speaker
he He doesn't want to be indoors, like he wants to be outside. And cats that want to be outside, they just see that. They're like at the door, constantly just pawing at it and meowing. It never stops. like They're like, this I'm in prison. Yeah so you're just thinking the whole time like I don't know what they're gonna tell us but I know that we can't do that like he will hate it he won't have any quality of life like I don't know what we're about to hear but I know that we can't do it you know and so we waited for hours for the tests and everything to get done and then they came back to us and like he's such a
00:23:11
Speaker
He's such a just like a rough little gremlin, you know, they come in and they're like, well, um, he has asthma.
00:23:24
Speaker
Asthma and they're like, yeah, he is asthma. He's probably a nerd to something you know, so he's like he's got a lot of inflammation a lot of air in his stomach from gulping air and ah This and that like, you know, we're gonna give you a couple of things for him to open up his airways and everything So we yeah, so we got out of there. It was like 1400 bucks by the time I was all said and done and And, uh, you know, I scheduled an appointment with our vet, which our vet super cool. And he's a realistic guy that loves animals, but like, you know, that he's going to give you like a reasonable prognosis on it. You know what you did? But, uh, so it was, it was bad, but the worst, the worst thing about it, God, it was, oh man, it was terrible.
00:24:14
Speaker
felt so bad for this kid, but there's a, so there's people kind of coming in and out, you know, throughout the night while we're there. And, uh, there's this kid that comes in and he's got like a little border collie or Australian shepherd kind of mix. And, um, he's there by himself and probably like maybe like 20, 22, something like that young kid. And uh, this dog was in bad shape. I don't remember exactly. I didn't get all the story on what was going on, but I did overhear some of it. And they basically said like, this dog's liver's failing. Oh my God. There's like, I know why they don't, they don't really, they don't actively try to
00:25:02
Speaker
alter your opinion, you know, your, your decision on things, but like, it doesn't negate the pressure that you feel in that situation. Like they're just talking about, right? And so they're talking to this kid and they're like, you know, he' she's, her liver's failing. She needs surgery now. And like, you know, she, she, we you know, there's the 24 hour surgeon in Wichita. that can do it, but they're very understaffed. Like, you're probably gonna have to drive her to either Manhattan, which is two hours away, or Kansas City, which is two and a half hours to away. And like, she needs to be there 10 minutes ago. You know, and he's already got like $4,000 worth of bill at Humor. Oh my God. What a whole nightmare. He called his mom and he's just like, he's like bawling on the phone.
00:26:01
Speaker
Oh man, it was so awful. And this lady that was sitting next to him, she like paid his bill. Whoa. And it is shocking. It was just like this, you know, redneck
Reflections on Pet Loss and Life Planning
00:26:16
Speaker
looking lady. And that's an episode touched by an angel, dude.
00:26:23
Speaker
It is yeah, but it was just like it was like one extreme to the other and you're just like God this poor kid and you just want to be like Just can you can you guys just tell the kid can you just level with him and tell him that like Hey, it's, it's time to say goodbye to your dog. You know, like he can't, he cannot do this. Like there's no way that he can do it. And he's on the phone with his mom. Like he's like, I can't, I can't afford it. And I have work tomorrow and I don't, and she's going to die. And you're just like, just tell the kid that it's.
00:27:01
Speaker
it's it's over like don't don't put him through that like the and they they told him were flat to his face that like she only had a 5050 chance of survival even with the operation yeah that's fucked up like when my dog was dying it was like my that was wonderful because
00:27:22
Speaker
Every, obviously people love their pets. And I feel like depending on the kind of animal person you get as a vet, you have like the ones who act like they're humans and you owe it to them to do every, like they're your children. Like you do you owe it to them to do everything you can to save their lives. And then you get the more realistic vets who go, I understand that this is a part of your family. This is just what happens sometimes, you know, pet, like my vet was so like, look, we understand that.
00:27:55
Speaker
because it was a similar situation. ah My dog had insulinoma, I believe is what it was very rare. ah died probably six years, seven years before she probably would have if not earlier than she would have if She didn't get this and we're like, like, you know, there's things, there's things you can do and it'll be incredibly expensive for the rest of her life. And there's no guarantees. Or you can do like a palliative care. And they're like, we're not, I mean, yeah it's your choice, but like, there's no, that they were just very, like, there's, there's no shame in just
00:28:35
Speaker
giving your dog the best life you can give your dog until it's time. And you'll know when it's time. And they were like, yeah it took the fucking weight off me, dude, because I like, we had had a vet previously, ah that wasn't like that. And it like, there was so much stress involved. And it was like, It's like if you, they make it sound like if you, like, cause obviously, you know, anything happens to your kid, you go, I'm going to go into, I'm going to take out a second mortgage to pay for my kid's medical care. Like, of course, but you don't have to do that for a pet. Uh, and the people who don't like try to like ease your, your that difficult decision, um,
00:29:18
Speaker
drive me nuts. It pisses me off. And I feel like yeah, hospitals, animal hospitals are more likely to just be like, well, these are your options. Do you want it to die or not? I got other shit to do. Like, I don't know. I've never had good experiences with animal hospitals. People I know have not had good experiences. There's only one in my area and they're go like when my lizard got half its face ripped off, people were like, you could go to, you could go to tops. And then it was like, no, that that's going to cost you $3,000 from there to tell you that your lizard is dead. Like it's not for really yeah always worth it. And, uh, I don't know, but you struggle and i I connect to your pets and you want to, you want to be ah like, you want to do right by them that you care about them. And I don't know, like whatever, however weird it may or may not be to some people, we're not all going to go out and.
00:30:05
Speaker
to the family gravel pit and put a bullet in their head, you know? it the right thing i know it its It's part of, I mean, that's part of the responsibility of, of having a pet. And it's a, it's a part that sucks, you know, but it's like pony up up make those decisions, but yeah it just, they didn't do anything wrong. They were very nice about everything. But I just I was just listening to this and I'm like, just just take this like burden off of this poor kid. Like he can't he can't. My heartbreak and do this. Yeah, I know. I don't know what happened with him, but I want to get him on the podcast, dude. I get to hear how this shit played out. Did he drive to Cincinnati? Did he even go to work? I hope he called out sick the next day.
00:30:57
Speaker
Yeah, maybe so. Probably his first week on the job. He has to already call out. Oh my god. What a horrible thing to hear somebody go through. Yep. I can't wait to make those decisions for my parents. Surprisingly, it's probably a lot easier, actually. Call the plug.
00:31:19
Speaker
You're going to show up to your parents. I have this little DNR paperwork. do Can you guys just fill this out real quick? I tell my dad once in a while, he'll talk ah he'll talk about retirement and stuff and I'm like, like to don't you feel like maybe it's a little selfish to retire? like You know, I'm, I'm not saving any money here. yeah dude One of my colleagues, she's, she's young ish. She's like 10 years younger than I am, but, um, her boyfriend is, uh, it's like serious. I mean, it's not like, Oh, this is my new boyfriend. Like they've been together for a long time. They're going to get married. They have the engagement plan. Like they, they're, it's all on the, on the table and like,
00:32:09
Speaker
A few weeks ago, hit her boyfriend's mom who was only like, she was only like 46, like unexpectedly died. um It's been horrible. They've been going through hell, sorting through all of it. And it's made me go, I have to start having these conversations with my parents, because there's this whole thing where like, if you have a if you have a mortgage, but you don't like have a will, like willing the mortgage to someone in the family, the bank just gets to take your house back. You have to hire a lawyer and be out more money to try to fight it. Usually you can't. like it's It's miserable. The whole process sucks. so you know Her boyfriend's 26. He's the oldest in the family. He's got like a 10-year-old brother and a 19-year-old brother.
00:32:58
Speaker
who aren't like the 19 year olds, not even self self sufficient. Like his grandmother lived with his mom, like, and he has to figure out how to try to keep the house and how to keep his grandma fucking housed and his 10 year old brother. It's such a nightmare. I feel my heart breaks for them. And it's just got me thinking a lot about like, i I just need to start having those awkward conversations where it's like, ah no one's expecting anything, but clearly that doesn't matter. Like we got to figure your shit out because I'm not going to go through, I don't want to go through that hell if like my parents died unexpectedly.
00:33:37
Speaker
and there is so much shit that you have to get in order. It even made me, I'm like, I need a fucking will at this point. like I gotta figure out my shit to put shit in the trust for my kids so that way they're set up for life. Dude, it is death is such a nightmare like in general to deal with. uh and then you think of like the the financial logistics and how fucked up everything is she's like barely has a savings and now she's out like 15 grand between funeral home oh yeah it's terrible i mean yeah it's it's all bad i feel kids you should get life insurance
00:34:14
Speaker
Yeah, just do it, just do it and think about it from like that perspective that someday it's going to save your loved ones from having to deal with just like financial hell trying to just get rid of your corpse and all of the dumb stuff that you've bought over your lifetime. Dude, and I'm like, I'm a pretty cheap person and nothing would make me angry like, I just want it to be clear to my kids, like nothing. Cause if there isn't those conversations ahead of time, people are like, well, I just want to like give them a good funeral and do right by them. I'm like, I promise you, I will be coming after you from the afterlife. If you spend a lot of money on my, my death, like cremations, the way to go, just fucking do it. If, if you don't go, what's the cheapest option possible at every step of the way, then I'm going to be upset with you in the afterlife.
00:35:14
Speaker
Yeah, I, I do think about sometimes though, if like if you, if you weren't cremated and you were buried, there's a chance that like archaeologists could dig you up someday, which would be cool. so cool if Like April and I died in the same at the same time, to drop your corpse in sort of like a scene like ah like you smashed my skull with a rock. and then got buried in lava or something, you know. That'd be sick. It would be cool. I didn't even know just like a finger in in my backside. Yeah, a i finger up the outside. Like a pyroclastic flow hit us and vaporized us, but all that's preserved is like her index finger in my butt.
00:36:01
Speaker
Dude, I didn't even know that you could forego, like if you're gonna do a burial, you can forgo all the chemicals they pump you with. I guess they don't really tell you that, but you can just deny it and you can have your corpse rot a natural rotting death. It's pretty cool. It would make for a great Cannibal Corpse album cover at some point. I just maybe get like the Like, what if you just got the, uh, the chemicals like in your arms and legs? So you had like a rotten torso, bare skull, but then like perfectly preserved arms and legs there, like some sort of disassembled Barbie. That'd be an interesting way to do it. Uh, I don't know if the technology's there yet, but I have thought about like, what could be cool, uh,
00:36:55
Speaker
You know, if you were shot into space, like at a good enough clip to where you could just kind of continue on like the Hubble telescope, you know, just like a big meat torpedo flying towards like, uh, I don't know, the, the Orion's belt or whatever, or. You ever seen those videos? Like we didn't have a science class, obviously really at my school. yeah But I've always wanted to see like somebody in person do like the the nitro or the, the what's not nitroglycerin, but the the, you know, where the the stuff that they dip like the banana in. Liquid nitrogen? Liquid nitrogen. That's what, yeah, like dip the banana in liquid nitrogen and then pound a nail in with it. Like I wonder if you could be frozen and shattered.
00:37:47
Speaker
That would be really cool. I would if I could pick that would be sick. and And at your funeral, it was like they just kind of like prop you up in a cool way. And it's kind of like, um like a dunk tank, right? Everyone just like has baseballs and they throw it at you. It's like a pinata really like a human pinata, the first person to make it explode. gets a good portion of your life insurance.
Controversial Book Discussion: 'Christ Trump'
00:38:12
Speaker
That would be fucking sick. That would be sweet if you were like a five star general or whatever, and they were going to commission like an aircraft carrier, you know, in your honor, like named after the USS Gresseth. And then they dipped me in liquid nitrogen and bashed me against the side of the ship like a wine bottle. That'd be cool. I mean, maybe you could be turned into a bomb and dropped on Palestinians. I mean, that'd be. We could do that with Nikki Haley.
00:38:38
Speaker
yeah I'll sign her up for that. Oh my God. I know you have a topic ah to dive into, but I want to take a quick moment to talk about a book that I've seen circulating in the ex-vangelical social media pages. Yeah, I haven't seen this, so I didn't know about it until you were you mentioned it earlier. So it, it's called Christ Trump. It's like C H R I S T and the T is across and then R U M P or Christ rump, if you will. Um, and it's the subtitle is persecution of a man by a guy named Christopher John Maluso. Now I am aware that we're going to be participating in the same kind of shit that I'm about to make a big deal of. Uh, but.
00:39:35
Speaker
I guess you could say that the news does the same thing when they talk about dumb shit that's going on in the world. So I keep seeing this book go around. The cover is insane. It's like ah light shining down on like like a cross. And that cross has a big red tie draped around it. It's a hideous cover. It actually looks like it was made by AI. I doubt i doubt there's an actual illustrator. I'm sure if you look in the book, it was definitely an AI cover. ah And it just, all I'm seeing everywhere is like people posting it going, this is a real book. Can you believe this is real? Oh my God, what's wrong with everybody? Blah, blah, blah. So I try to, I see that and because it looks like an AI cover, my first thought was, is this actually real? Let me Google it. It's hard. yeah not ah You can't just Google the title of the book and get like a, it doesn't show up at the top.
00:40:31
Speaker
Um, this is what's funny about living in 2024 is quote unquote, this is a real book. Doesn't mean anything because it's sold on Amazon and it's a self published book. Uh, so it's not that you can't like write a book and sell it on Amazon. It's like self published in that. That's like not good, but like, literally anybody can write a book and Amazon will let you go through their publishing platform to get it up on their website. They'll give it like a um
00:41:10
Speaker
and as and an number and shit like that. So like, or even it's got an ISBN number too. So like, um like anyone, I could write a pamphlet and and get it published with Amazon. As long as I'm willing to pay the money, I could publish whatever I wanted. um So to say this is like a real book and having it, I mean, I can't go on Instagram without seeing it reposted and on ex-vangelical pages now. And what um my assumption is is that prior to this, prior to whatever person got that like click baity, like now I'm going to get all the likes that I want on this. I'll be the first one to post it. Like, cool. You got what you wanted. This is not, I'm going to go ahead and just say this is not a real book. It's, it's a book that was typed in bounded and had a cover slapped on it, but it's,
00:42:07
Speaker
currently 1565 on Amazon ah for paperback. And just reading the overview, which I'm guessing is written by the author, ah should give you some insight into how probably poorly written this thing is. I don't think he had an editor at all. um But I find this shit funny because it's like, It's like this obscure book that's, you know, this is the kind of shit that Exvangelicals want to just dump on.
00:42:38
Speaker
And he has gotten more free marketing in the past four days then than he could have ever like paid for. like The amount of marketing he's gotten for his book, it was financially unattainable ah four days ago, but he's it's everywhere now. um But the overview is, and this is also what I think is funny, is you see the cover, you see the crucifix, you see the tie on it, you go, the fucking evangelicals. Look at this dumbass book they wrote.
00:43:11
Speaker
And it's not even really a Christian book. And that's what stuck out to me the most. So the overview says, it's been far too easy for far too long for the cultural imagination of the secular West to envision an aged Christ as some mellow, tie-dyed hippie professor who has you call him by his first name and hands you your first J with a copy of Saul Olinsky's Rules for Radicals. full This is one time I lost you. I'm still reading the same sentence. um Fully a convert to the modernist moral relativism in his end-life utility ah and and but I suggest in this exploration, a different Christ. By age 40, a Marine major, a fit, a poly, a Polonian warrior. All right, so the overview for this book.
00:44:04
Speaker
um
00:44:06
Speaker
is I think one long run on sentence ah that I also just noticed. So I will let you all know when the first sentence is over. ah Here's the overview. It's been far too easy for far too long for the cultural imagination of the secular west to envision an aged Christ as some mellow, tie-dye, hippie professor who has you call him by his first name and hands you your first J with a copy of Saul Alinsky's Rules for Radicals, fully a convert to the modernist moral relativism and his end-life utility and N-U-E, I don't know what that word is, E-N-N-U-I,
00:44:46
Speaker
But I suggest in this exploration a different Christ. By colon, by age 40, a marine major, a fit Apollonian warrior seen lean and sinewy, and michelangeels Michelangelo's last judgment at age 55, a scientist, analyst, and doctor who never jumps to rash conclusions, hoodwinked by tendentious data sets from government labs, He'd solve all worldly woe by the application of crystalline thought. And finally, by age 70, a wisened or or ocular leader who commands all matters in the moment for the common betterment. That is one fucking sentence. That's incredible. So this is just like the schizophrenic musings of some nut.
00:45:39
Speaker
Yeah. And what I go to the reviews and everyone goes, blasphemy, blasphemy, blasphemy, blasphemy, all one stars. And then he has a five star review. And it says, which kind of, this is what gave me a little bit more of an idea of what we're dealing with. So this book by author Chris Maluso is an exploration of the need for a secular savior in our present days, using the Christ avatar and Judaic Christian ethic, The author guides you on a journey through a world under an imaginary auspicious auspices i don't of a Christ never crucified, grown old on earth. Would he be a hippie college professor or rather a martial force for good, a general, a president waging war against the gathering storm of evil?
00:46:28
Speaker
ah Whatever, I don't need to read anymore. ah But ah the book asks, how does one act like the continued Christ? A Christ never crucified through the fire, blah, blah, blah, blah. So anyway, basically, it just uses the motif of the Christ concept and carries on. ah I am obviously uninterested enough to know how he applies that, but it's hardly a Christian book. It's hardly even from the description, like, going that hard on like, christ is ah Trump is our savior, Trump's just like Jesus. It's not really tying it to evangelical Christianity in any way, but it's caught on to the evangelical world and has been shared countless times at this point. And that's what I think is so funny about this space is in what we've talked about plenty of times, Casey is like, we just,
00:47:25
Speaker
In a lot of ways they're just, it ends up being part of the same machine that they hate. It's just like the flip side of the coin. You kind of need, you almost like need those people to keep your, to keep the machine running. Um, and seeing how like that book got shared and then it just, all the other pages that I follow, like I don't, I forget which one shared at first, um, and whatever, share it, joke on it. That's fine. But it. for all the adjacent pages to immediately pick up on it and share it. And they're like, I got it from this page. I got it from this page. Like everyone who follows your page follows those other five pages. I always find myself like, if I see it posted somewhere else first, I have a hard time trying to like rebrand it and make it fun. Like to me, I just go, all right,
00:48:15
Speaker
Someone else already did that. Like maybe there'll be something else I like can dunk on and make fun of before someone else gets the chance. But the whole like recycling of the same content across all these pages gets tiresome to me. And I feel like they kind of missed the mark. It's not even like a really a Christian book. as Some of it's so preachy too, you know, just the like rehashing the same points over and over again. And like, just a reminder, if you think this, then you're an idiot. You know, that kind of stuff just. Yeah, I can't. I can't look at it. I've unfollowed most of them or it muted them at least. yeah I'm honest. I don't do much of anything on social media except scroll Instagram once in a while. I know you never check the the God Squad group chat. That's for sure. The messages have gotten totally out of control.
00:49:09
Speaker
And there's a lot. now they avoid um It's not, it's not that one. It's just, I just have so many, I can't keep up with them. I do the same. I just like, when I wake up and I see too many, I just like swipe all the notifications. I'm like, I'll get to this in a few days if I feel like it. And we're back from Sam's five day pee break. He had to go. It wouldn't stop coming out. I don't know. I went to see a doctor and everything.
00:49:41
Speaker
You see, Sam won't pee at work because the urinals are so close to the ground. yeah so He just paces nervously in his office until it's time to go home.
00:49:53
Speaker
No, we ah we had, as we talked about in the last non-episode, we had some serious internet problems and about the fifth time we got disconnected and had to start over on a topic, we were like, all right, this isn't working. So we're coming back with part two of this episode that we started last week.
Scandal at Gateway Church: Robert Morris
00:50:14
Speaker
And we're going to be talking about the, uh, the, the currently ongoing scandal at gateway church centered around Robert Morris, the, the senior pastor there. And I feel like with these mega churches, like
00:50:33
Speaker
You know that they're out there and you know that they're huge, but like somebody says a name and you're like, i it doesn't register for me, like which ones are which? like Yeah, definitely. The branding is definitely more built around a person rather than the church itself, except for Hillsong. Which is crazy cause even, yeah, you're you're right. Because Hillsong is like songs and it's like, ah it's a brand that that is the church is a brand now. But even Robert Morris, I heard the name and I was like, that sounds familiar. But like it is interesting how large these communities are when you're just not, when you're not paying attention to it anymore. So much of it like falls out your ears a bit where you're just, I don't, it's true.
00:51:25
Speaker
You're like, yeah, that sounds like a big church. I feel like I went to a big church as a kid and had a couple hundred people. And, uh, then you hear about these. It's like, I mean, what, what are we looking at here? Well, okay. So just a quick note on gateway church. So it's a, it's a multi-site mega church based in South Lake, Texas, which is near Fort Worth. As of 2023, it was ranked as the ninth largest in the United States with attendance of almost 26,000 people. Does that include, does that physical attendance? I think that is because they have like nine campuses or something. Okay. Yeah, that would make sense. It's not a particularly old church either. It was started in 1999.
00:52:12
Speaker
I always find the multi-site thing funny. Like what they do is instead of like, you know, build new community or whatever, it's like, let's get a building, put up a giant screen and show a video of what the people at the other building are watching that can also be seen from their home. Yeah. Imagine if you had to report to work to like, join a zoom call. Yeah. It doesn't make any sense. I mean, I guess that's what everybody's work is now. yeah as you say I remember doing that and going, why did they tell me I couldn't work from home?
00:52:53
Speaker
Yeah, that is ah that does seem to be about what it's like. um Okay. What's it say? ah Gateway Church's first service was held on Easter morning, April 23rd in 2000. at the Hilton Hotel and Grapevine, approximately 180 people attended the service. How do you get 180 people? That's crazy. Gorilla marketing, baby. In June 2003, the church moved into its first permanent building, a 600-seat, 64,000-square-foot facility on South Lake Boulevard. In 2010, Gateway opened its current facility, a 64-acre property with 4,000 seats. Jesus Christ, this spirit must have been moving. In 2017, Gateway Church downsized their staff by 10-15%.
00:53:45
Speaker
and gave their senior pastor a pay increase equal to the amount of the salaries cut. you know Senior pastor gets paid off of ah off of net, not gross. so yeah you You got to keep them accountable on the expenses.
00:54:03
Speaker
2008, the church began to work on a new main campus located along State Highway 114, project included 4,000 seed. Uh, boy, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Yeah, whatever. I don't know. It's got like nine campuses. Uh, watch a TV VCR combo of Robert Morris telling you not to, you know. not to lust after your wife or something. After your own wife? Hey, wrong's wrong. Do not imagine. Look, if you're at work and you're thinking about having sex with your wife and you're distracted from making money for a person whose dad gave them the company that now makes money for them without them doing anything, you're sitting against that man. You're sitting against that man and you need to stop it.
00:54:51
Speaker
Do not go to the bathroom and jerk off so you can focus more later. We can't do that. and Do all things unto the glory of God. Isn't that how it goes? Except for jerking off. Yeah. You can't be doing, you can't be doing data entry to the glory of God if you are, if you're thinking about your naked wife. yeah So here's a little note on Pat Robert Morris, the senior pastor, founder, um, This is, so I opened this tab like a week ago when we were first talking about this. I would imagine that they're not going to have this profile up on the website much longer. Probably. What hotel were you staying in last week again? Uh, the Comfort Inn and Suites. Comfort Inn. And did we just, did we check to see if Robert Morris has ties to the Comfort Inn and Suites? No. Hmm.
00:55:47
Speaker
But, um, yeah, that's some sleuthing worth doing, I think. So, okay. So here's his bio, right? Robert Morris, the senior pastor of gateway church, um update that one multi-campus church based in Dallas, Fort Worth, Texas. Since it began in 2000, the church has grown to grown to more than a hundred thousand active attendees. So they're fluffing their numbers a little more than Wikipedia. How bored do you have to be? His television program airs in over 190 countries, and his radio program works upon the word. Ask Robert. YouTube's just available in 190 countries, so they're like, there it is.
00:56:32
Speaker
Uh, his radio program airs in more than 6,800 cities. This is the kind of stuff where like, I feel like you, your, your phone dies. You're forced to like turn on the radio in your car. And when you're like endlessly searching through stations for something other than like the same journey song over and over again, you come across those like Christian channels where it's just some random old prick that's preaching about nothing. that That's the kind of show he has. After you've listened to the ACDC and Guns N' Roses top hits for the seventh time in a row, you're like, I could really listen to somebody tell me something. For real. ah He serves as chancellor of the King's University and is the best-selling author of numerous books, including The Blessed Life, Dream to Destiny, The God I Never Knew, and Grace Period.
00:57:31
Speaker
Robert and his wife, Debbie, have been married 44 years and are blessed with one married daughter, two married sons, and nine grandchildren.
00:57:43
Speaker
So yeah, I wonder if he's still the chancellor at the King's University. Yeah, that's a great question. ah It's probably just a money laundering operation anyways. So, uh, if you're, if you're, I guess we should say like why we're actually talking about pastor Morris. So if you haven't somehow seen the news recently here in the past, like week and a half or so, um, Robert Morris is accused and credibly so of molesting a 12 year old girl.
00:58:21
Speaker
ah back when he was back in the 80s when he was like in his early 20s and just traveling around with his family as like an evangelist and The the woman who he assaulted back in the day She it's it's this is a crazy story and it's one that you you like and It's laid out pretty well in this article. So the the main article that I was looking at here is called, it's on a website called the Wartburg watch. Um, the author is just listed as D.
00:59:00
Speaker
So it's kind of, it's just a blog post really, but, uh, she spent some time talking to this lady, Cindy Klemeshire, who is the, you know, the, the victim and, um, you know, kind of lays out in detail exactly what happened and how her and her family responded to it, which differs significantly from how Robert has framed it to, I mean, literally everyone. Oh, you don't say interesting. Yeah. So, um, is one of his, uh, one of the things he says is like, well, you know, there were only two people in the room. So it's my word against hers. I'm sure that though that was said at some point. Yeah. Yeah. yeah Probably when he's like staring down at his wife. Yeah.
00:59:55
Speaker
Um, All right, so this is ah this is a rough story. if ah If you're, you know, if you don't want to hear details of abuse and things like that, I would skip this section the next five minutes here or whatever. But um I think it's important just to read it and just to get it in kind of in Cindy's words and just lay out exactly what happened here. Because the way that this is represented is a lot of what is causing trouble right now.
01:00:28
Speaker
how it had you know What happened, when it happened, who knew that it happened, and and when did they find out is going to get people in a lot of trouble over this, I think. Maybe not necessarily like legal trouble, but litigation is coming. Yeah, because it's it's past the statute of limitations, right? Yes. So there's only so much that can happen. ah I think a civil suit is still possible. even when like There's no statute of limitation of limitations for civil suits, is that right? Does that happen with Cosby? I think that's what happened with Cosby, right? where no no No, not Cosby. um
01:01:13
Speaker
Weinstein maybe, or? Yeah, it was one of the two. There was some, there were civil, it was that just difference between civil suits and, and i whatever, versus the state of, or some shit, versus the people, versus the person. There's a lot of talk going on around this about rip, like um statute of limitations and, and possibly, you know, reforming that or doing away with it. um Because I mean, well, She kind of says it here, but the the author says, uh, many victims start speaking out in their late thirties to fifties. Cindy realized what had happened when she was 35 while watching an Oprah show featuring a man who described grooming.
01:01:59
Speaker
So at this point, she says, you know, before I get into the story, let me ah just to give you an idea of what we're dealing with here. Let me show you some ah clip of a sermon that Pastor Robert gave where he talked about some of these things here. And I cut a couple of clips from it. that I want to play. And this was from, when was the sermon from? Do we have? 2014, I believe. Okay. And he's talking about, you know, he's in his books and stuff like that. He's talked about how like, he was um very sexually immoral as a teenager. And basically like goes on to do that, you know, the thing where you give your testimony, but you kind of like
01:02:45
Speaker
Oh yeah. Grovelbrag. Yeah. He's doing a little bit of that and he's talking about what a win he was. It's just one of those things that like where you move the goalpost on when you really got saved. You're like, I was saved at 13, but I really got saved at 21 after I was done fucking everyone that wanted to fuck. Pretty much. All right, so here's a clip of him talking about ah You know why this was such a problem for him When I say it was easy for me I I was very immoral and I was immoral a lot and um I can remember a conversation so vague with friends And they they said the one of them said ah You're just blessed
01:03:38
Speaker
That's what they said. Because we would go out and meet girls, and I would end up being immoral just in one night. I hate him. And so they began actually, it's so horrible to share this because of what the word bless means. He's really torn up. He's devastated. And then I've written a book called The Blessed Life, and it's about giving, not taking. Giving what? And it's about giving to give, not giving to get. Giving to get had. That's the total opposite of the way I was before I met Christ. Here's what I've realized. I was not blessed. I was cursed. There was a curse on my life where immorality came easy for me. It's no longer his fault. That's nice.
01:04:22
Speaker
just that's That's the life. That was his frost to bear. yeah that's so He was just super manipulative.
01:04:30
Speaker
I was so good at lying. It was really, ah it was, it was a struggle for me. His curse was being just like the serpent in the garden of Eden. He didn't ask for that. He was born with, that was a sin nature. You know, there's nothing he could have done about that until he got saved. Yeah. What did, what did Paul write about like his, he had one nut that was bigger than the other or something and it was plaguing him or. Then you have like a burden or something. A thorn in his side or something like that? There we go. Yeah. Okay. yeah Almost. it It makes his tunic sprinkle funny. It was just a massive dick that he couldn't contain in any modern tunic at the time. Is that? Just constantly stepping on his own head.
01:05:19
Speaker
That's where the term tripping on your own dick came from was just from the apostle Paul. It was that massive. And talk about a talk about across the bear. Cause he said a lot about celibacy and that guy had a guy had a sword to wield. Yeah, but it was always scuffed up. He wasn't going to use it anyways. And it was one of those real big ones that never gets all the way hard. that's some you know I hear that when they're huge, when they're massive. like urget Yeah, if they're going to get as hard as if they're going to get as hard as a regular person's penis, you actually would pass out because you'd lose too much blood in your head. and
01:06:00
Speaker
just have an aneurysm every time you every time you come you just pass out on top of someone it makes sleeping really ah dangerous you know you wake up every time you wake up with morning wood you just Go right back to sleep.
01:06:20
Speaker
It's just an ongoing, a loop, the constant loop. It's like Groundhog's Day for just waking up hard. It would be great if you did have that problem and just like, you just felt, you just got super nauseous every time you got aroused. I keep puking on my dates. Okay, so let's, let's hear a little more about, uh, ah the the the ultimate suitor, young Robert Morris. I hope he listens to this episode.
01:06:54
Speaker
um I learned to lie and manipulate because I also had rejection. I didn't want to be rejected. So I looked for the girls that would be the most susceptible. And I learned how to spot this in girls. Please hear me. There's a reason I'm i'm sharing this. ah The very thing, ladies, that the world tells you to give a man before marriage so that you can keep him is the very thing that will cause you to lose him.
01:07:25
Speaker
What an argument. Because I was the perv. Oh my God. I looked for girls that were insecure. And I don't know, and now I look back on this, I can tell I did it. It wasn't like a plan that I had, but I could i could spot this. ah Girls were made to be held by men. And if they are not held, if that needs a healthy way by their father, They will meet it in an unhealthy way. But you need to understand that. Hold me, daddy. Does not respect you. He cannot. He cannot love you. I love it that you just set it up like basically. I feel like that's an a part of that whole like purity argument that I forget about, you know, but that argument that they make where they're like, hey, look,
01:08:20
Speaker
um There's an equation here and you can't beat it, right? If if you allow yourself to be had sexed with, good he can't love you. You might as well just, just break up there because you've, you have, you have pushed the wrong button. He can no longer love you and he certainly can't respect you. In fact, he may punch you. Yeah. the The assumption, the assumption is that he goes, he's like, man, look, if they can't respect you, they can't love you and they can't respect you if they have sex with you. You're like, okay, so what's that? like
01:09:02
Speaker
that that's just and and that's this an unreasonable amount of shit to try to even unpack. like doesn't there's no it It takes all agency away from like women, essentially. If I don't have sex with him, if I do have sex with him, it's all it's literally always entirely about how to get a male to feel about you so that way they respect you and can love you.
01:09:28
Speaker
Yeah, it's nice it's not about you talk about what you need. You need, you need a man to hold you. You need daddy. You were made to be held by a man. God, that's creepy. It's really gross. It's a man. Did they just find, I feel like they just find the worst ways to say the like very basic things that they're trying to convey to. like It's one thing to say, yes, the the idea of what he's saying is dumb and wrong.
01:10:03
Speaker
But on top of that, he says it in such a stupid way that like like girls were made to be held by a man. And if if they don't get held by their daddies, then their brains short circuit and they go out and have sex with people who will not respect them or love them. And then the implication of that is that you're worthless track. Like you can't just have made a mistake and have had sex. Like you can't be an adult that had where obviously he's getting into a story that has nothing to do with adults but the broad application is you can't be an adult have sex with somebody go oops without it being like devastating to the core of your identity and that's where like ah that shit gets fucked up right it's like you can't just be an adult that had sex and go
01:10:56
Speaker
Like I don't think I would, I wouldn't do that with that person again. Like it, you know, you talk to a lot of people, not us, because you know, we're still ourselves. We're still, we were godly men, you know? Uh, but better than most of the audience. We didn't take advantage of, we didn't take advantage of women. We didn't respect that's for sure. Or, uh, couldn't love, I should say. Uh, but I.
01:11:25
Speaker
You, yeah, it's just, it's it's silly. You, you meet enough adults as an adult and you're just like, you could, They've all had sex with people that are like, yeah, that was, you know, yeah, I had sex with this person. We had a good time. We had fun. We had sex. It was weird. There was this weird thing about it. It just wasn't right. So I won't do that again. And they move on. And it's like, maybe you didn't have sex. Maybe you made out and did some hand stuff and then you moved on. But whatever it is, like as an adult who made a decision for what you wanted to do,
01:11:57
Speaker
And as a woman with agency, you go, I didn't feel very respected. I think, you know, he got what he came for. But there are women who also get to go and I got what I came for too, which is just to fuck. That was good. I liked it. You can hear anyone, male, female, wherever you are in the gender spectrum, go, I fucked a fuck and it was a good time. And that person is not the kind of person I want to spend any more of my time with. That's fine. But that's not, there's no area for that in this guy's world.
Cindy Klemeshire's Story and Church Accountability
01:12:32
Speaker
It's like, I was calculated. I,
01:12:37
Speaker
if you if you're gonna have sex with somebody it's because you have a problem with your dad and you weren't held enough as a kid and you aren't you don't have any respect for yourself and now you can't even be with a man who has respect for you because if you're gonna be with a man who wants to have sex with you then he doesn't respect you it's like it's the mindfuck is is unending well and it's like it I don't know it's it's all just base boilerplate purity culture crap that everybody said so many times but like It sucks because you think back on like dating and stuff and it's like the the anxiety around this sort of crap is it sucks so much of the fun out of something that should have been like the most fun thing ever. Like it was very exciting and stuff like that. But you know, you always had this like fear in the back of your head, like, whoa, we made out. So like, I mean, how can God bless this when I didn't, you know, when we when we violated our principles and our commitment to him and then
01:13:35
Speaker
And then, man, God, if you break up with someone, do you have to walk around thinking like, well, maybe it's because I allowed him to have sex on me. Maybe I ruined it by allowing him to do that. And I i poisoned the relationship by my, you know, receiving Sexual pleasure. It's just dumb. It's stupid by and like I think outside of my relationship. I think the only like real girlfriend I had was like an eight-week relationship
01:14:09
Speaker
Maybe eight weeks. I don't even know. The timeline is a blur. And it's just funny because in that moment that was still very like I was probably I think I was like a senior in high school. I went to a dance with her at her public school as a homeschooled kid. That was a big move because, you know, people were grinding to get low. And I was like, I don't know what to do right now. I was just like standing there like, I don't know. Do I participate like a sinner? And I send, of course, ah by accident, of course, I was the grindy, not the grinder. I don't, but ah however that works. And I was like, did you get your security deposit back on that rented tux?
01:14:53
Speaker
minus No, I just ah I tucked in an oversized shirt to my oversized khakis where the belt was done too tight. So the button kind of like poked out below it, you know, when it like folds forward and had ah one of those oversized thick ties looked like a total dork. It was ah not a good look and big ties. But i I remember like afterwards we like went somewhere and hung out. You know, you did some you did some making out. And I remember the entire time being paranoid. Couldn't even like just enjoy being like a teenager kissing like your first girlfriend because I'm like, I'm paranoid.
01:15:31
Speaker
what Where is this gonna go? Am I am i gonna am i goingnna be here problem am i going to be the one that tries to go too far? And if I do it, then what's gonna, it was, I just remember constant paranoia for that 30 minutes before like like awkwardly we just sat and watched TV. You know, it was like, I don't. And then shortly after that, she was like, I don't think we should be together. And I was like, ah, I knew I was going to fuck this up. I get it. Yeah. I don't want to be with me either. So I'm with you. Incidentally, there's two people in this room that hate this person right now. I'm going to go listen to Lincoln Park and draw scribbles real hard. yeah
01:16:14
Speaker
That's probably what I was listening to at the time. it's Perfect stuff. no All right, so back to Robert Morris. Let me let me just, I'm going to give you kind of what Cindy has to say about the events here. In 1981, Cindy and her family met Robert Morris at a youth revival in Tulsa. He was a 20-year-old traveling evangelist married to Debbie, his current wife. Cindy was 11 years old. Her family was involved in many evangelistic events, and they were active in church. Morris was invited to do a youth revival in her hometown of Harmony, Oklahoma.
01:16:51
Speaker
After that, he began to regularly preach at their church on Sundays. He would often stay at her home and sometimes bring his wife Debbie and their little boy Josh. Robert and Debbie, by the way, Josh is who is set to take over pastorship of the church. Oh, might as well keep it in the lineage. Yeah. I'm sure he's the most qualified candidate. Robert and Debbie knows no bounds.
01:17:20
Speaker
Robert and Debbie Morris quickly became family friends and Cindy viewed them as safe and friendly. Their families would often go on trips with each other. All that changed for Cindy on 12, 25, 1982. Yes, Christmas night. God. The Morris family came to visit and spent some time there. Cindy sat in the backseat of the car with Robert. He asked her to visit him in his room that night. She shared a room with her sister. Cindy, an innocent 12-year-old girl, movingly described what she was wearing. She was wearing pink pajamas with bloomer pants. She wore underwear underneath. She had a snap-up robe on.
01:18:03
Speaker
ah She sought nothing of visiting a family friend in their bedroom. He told her to lie on down on her back and touched her stomach. He told her to close her eyes, then he touched her breasts and felt under her panties. He warned her, never tell anyone about this because it will ruin everything. She returned to her bedroom and didn't tell her sister what happened. Now here's, so this is, Yeah. So this is what gets, I mean, what a thing to whitewash, right? Is just like, and we'll, we'll, I'll read you his statement and this church's statement later when we get to it. But Robert Morris repeated this behavior until March of 1987. This would happen in Texas and Oklahoma, and the family would stay at the Morris home in Texas. Her father donated money to Robert's ministry, not realizing what was happening to his daughter.
01:19:02
Speaker
Morris wanted to make out and engage in heavy petting. He reportedly told Debbie that he was counseling Cindy. Cindy wondered if Debbie was in denial about what was happening. Things changed when she turned 16. He would take her out in his car and attempt to have sexual intercourse. Once he was fixing a vanity in his home and held up a screw and asked Cindy if she wanted to quote, do this. God, that sucks. Oh, what a fucking pervert. She was 16 at that point. Is that what it said? She was 16. Yeah. So this went on from for four years. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, and it doesn't specifically lay out like how frequent the, the abuse was in this article, but in later.
01:19:53
Speaker
When there, there's emails that she exchanged with him in the early 2000s, which we'll get into, right? But she said, you know, people with a, one of her quotes from the emails was people with a hundred counts of child abuse don't typically pastor churches or something to that extent. But it, so this was something that happened very frequently. Yikes. It was the thing that stuck out to me, especially was.
01:20:25
Speaker
noting what pajamas she was wearing the first time it happened. like And I think what's this is how kids, this is what's crazy about the way kids can partition abuse in their mind. It's like you're trying to find equilibrium so you you know you'll like figure out a way for it to not be something to deal with. But it was impactful enough where like that night and everything about it was seared in her brain indefinitely. like dead yeah that is ah That's a huge turning point in someone's life where it's like to know and remember like what you were wearing is... like i don't remember what I don't even remember what PJs I owned when I was 12, you know what I mean? I have no idea.
01:21:18
Speaker
I can't, other than, the other than, i was other than pair a pair of zip off jeans, other than a pair of zip off at the knees jeans, that's the only thing I know I owned when I was 12 and maybe an orange t-shirt. Like otherwise I don't know. And I can't remember a specific day in which I was wearing anything. It's crazy. Like that's, that's horrific to hear that recount. So by this point, when she know she's 16, it's 1987, right? ah He was a pastor at Shady Grove Church, which would ah would eventually become Gateway Church Grand Prairie Campus, which is interesting. I must have missed that the first time. but So his old church would eventually become a part of Gateway.
01:22:03
Speaker
um So here's how it all kind of comes out, right? Cindy confided in a close friend who knew both families. Her friend said she needed to tell her parents. How old was Cindy then? Do we know? 16. Oh, okay. At 16. Her father was angry and called the head pastor of Shady Grove Church to report Morris. He demanded that Morris get out of ministry or he would call the sheriff. Big mistake. Big mistake. Yeah. and look So, hang on one second. We'll get to it. All right. um Morris reportedly stepped down for ministry for two years. um I was thinking about this because this is something that you hear frequently with church. Like, yeah, somebody there's something is uncovered. People who rightfully should be
01:22:57
Speaker
very angry and want that person prosecuted and gone, you know, in prison. They choose to handle the situation like outside of the law, you know, holy the Duggars. That was the big thing with the Duggar situation. I mean, it's a very frequent thing, you know, and i I think the only thing I would say to that is like. Stop, I'm sure there was. a ah Yeah, well, I mean, yeah. i'm I'm sure there was a lot of pressure from all sides on her father to not go to the police, but still, you know, he should have, he should have protected his, his daughter and, and turned him in. And, uh, you know, so he steps down from ministry for two years. I think I would assume that her father.
01:23:52
Speaker
would intended for him to be done with ministry altogether. Dude, the thing that's sticking out to me though is like he was counseling this girl. It's like I don't do it under zero circumstances like if anyone if any pastor no matter how much I trusted them wanted to counsel my kid it wouldn't be in a completely private unknowable set like what the fuck like kind of fuck the guy this dad too a little bit and I get I get
01:24:29
Speaker
that this world can do that to people can make you pretty fucking blind to that, what's going on. And it can make you overly trusting. And I probably feel that way because I just know enough of this shit at this point. This is older. I don't know. I don't want to like, I will default to how the Cindy That's her name, right, Cindy? I will default to how she feels about her dad to feel that same way. That's on her. I'm just saying, as a parent of a kid, if my daughter was, that's just not normal. To be like, let's go to our bedroom and have these conversations. Even the church I grew up in,
01:25:19
Speaker
was knew was smart about things like that. And they were conservative. There was a lot of problems. I don't love their theology in any way, shape, or form, or at least what it was when I was there. But they made the pastor's office. when You walked into the front lobby, and immediately to your left was the pastor's office. And it was entirely glass windows looking in. There were blinds. So if there was couples in there, but they had, I learned recently from someone who was, who participated in the the church on a, on a, like a more involved level when they were in their early twenties was, um, that they had a hard and fast rule that those blinds never close ever under zero circumstances to those blinds close unless you're in there with multiple people.
01:26:14
Speaker
Right. And you walk into the lobby and it's immediately on your left. And I always was like, Oh, that's crazy. The pastor's office is front and center. And they designed that intentionally out of all of the faults that this church has, they designed that intentionally to protect at least this, which I'll say good on them. It's not rocket science. I don't know that that's what Everybody's understanding of what, why he was with Cindy or spending time with her, or if they knew that he was what that's, he told his wife, Debbie, that he was counseling her who Debbie seems like a winner. So that's the next note here. Cindy received a call from Debbie Morris who told Cindy that she quote, forgave her. What the fuck?
01:27:04
Speaker
It's just unbelievable.
01:27:09
Speaker
that That that's not even okay. Initial reaction. Fuck you. Secondary reaction. That's her trying to fucking keep her world together. That's what that is, right? Wrong on all accounts. But she's probably being pushed to do that by her husband and stuff. But hey, you know you don't participate in that sort of thing. You don't have to. You're an adult, and you can make decisions for yourself. So you know you did a terrible thing. And then i she she has to have actively participated in helping him cover this up over the years.
01:27:49
Speaker
because yeah he was not forthright about this with anybody. And I mean, he straight up like skips over it in his books by the sound of it. Or if he does mention anything to about it, it's like very vague and it's, you know, I was immoral or something like that. Like she was a part of the cover up and it suited her well to to participate in that and be a part of it. ah Two years later, Robert returned to hominy with Debbie, allegedly with James Robinson's blessing. The pressure was on and Robert Morris was aiming for the big time. They told her father that he wanted to get back into ministry. At this point, her father washed his hands of Morris and no longer interacted with him. So strike two for dad. He let him go right back to what he was doing beforehand.
01:28:38
Speaker
with you know no consequences or anything. I'm done with him. That's it. I'm not going to talk to him. Great. Good job, dad.
01:28:52
Speaker
so um Of course, Cindy had a lot of stuff to work out. She did extensive counseling and stuff like that after the fact. and This really becomes a ah thing when she – in 2005, she obtained an attorney to file a civil lawsuit. Robert Morris's attorney responded by implying that they believed it was her fault because she was flirtatious. She asked for $50,000, which was not much in anybody's estimation, right? They responded that they would give her $25,000 if she signed an NDA.
01:29:35
Speaker
which she did not take. Wow, good for her. And so, okay, so here's an interesting thing. um In his book, From Dream to destinment to Destiny, which was written in 2011, he says he stepped down from the ministry when he was 25 due to issues of pride. He claims he was a security guard at Motel 6. Cindy believed that she was he was also a used car salesman. What?
01:30:09
Speaker
Yeah. And it's just, I dunno, it's just dumb like the the clips from the book and stuff are ridiculous. Like he, so he basically is like, you know, God, God told me that I needed to step down and I didn't want to hear it. That's not the answer I was looking for. But you know what? I submitted myself to God. And it only blessed me. It only but wasn't God asking you. It was Cindy's dad. Oops. Yeah. So now that this has come out, uh, like what, I mean, what his response to all of it is lacking.
01:30:53
Speaker
Initially. So initially his response, um, this is from CNN. Uh, Monday, June 17th. So after the blog post popped up and, uh, word started to spread around about the fact that like, this was out online, um, the church sort of tried to like, keep it quiet and they, their word of when they actually were, you know, informed about what was happening.
01:31:29
Speaker
that's And then later, you know, after he resigned, they claimed that like, well, we didn't, you know, we just didn't know and stuff. But here's a, so on that note, here's a a piece from a Slack channel between, uh, the gateway staff and this guy, Thomas Miller. I'm not sure how he's, uh, related here, but.
01:32:05
Speaker
um After the blog post popped up, this is what was posted in their Slack channel. Hi Gateway staff. Some of you may be aware that a couple of blog posts and internet stories have popped up today about Pastor Robert and Gateway Church regarding something from over 35 years ago. I want to provide you with a statement from our elders and from Pastor Roberts so that you would know what the absolute thoroughness and transparency of the situation and so that you can provide this response and context. The statement is to empower you with a response if someone inquires, not as something to proactively send out to people.
01:32:41
Speaker
it is hilar like Hey, look, don't talk about this. If somebody asks you about it, this is what you're supposed to say. We're empowering you with a ah clear script, but you know, don't go talking about it to anybody who doesn't ask. If a congregation member wants to talk further about anything, please direct them to your campus pastor. If a media outlet contacts you, please direct them to Lawrence Swicegood. Thank you, everyone. And the initial statement that they said that they so made publicly, um, it says in March of 1987, this, uh, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. Um,
01:33:29
Speaker
Oh crap. They said, Pastor Robert has been open and forthright about a moral failure he had over 35 years ago when he was in his 20s and prior to him starting Gateway Church. He has shared publicly from the pulpit the proper biblical steps he took in his lengthy restoration process.
01:33:49
Speaker
um Sure, he has. Yeah, right. They talk about when Robert had said that when I was in my early twenties, I was involved in an inappropriate sexual behavior with a young lady in a home where I was staying. It was kissing and petting and not intercourse, but it was wrong. He actually called, he actually called out petting specifically. Give her a little pet. This, this young lady, a young lady. What a fucking pervert.
01:34:22
Speaker
This behavior happened on several occasions over the next few years. In March of 1987, this situation was brought to light and it was confessed and repented of. I submitted myself to the elders of Shady Grove Church and the young lady's father. They asked me to step out of ministry and receive counseling and freedom ministry. Freedom. Freedom. You can just make up words. It's marketing. It's literally just a marketing campaign, all that. Let's just keep making up words to say what we need to get by. Since that time, I have walked in purity and accountability in this area. I asked their forgiveness and they graciously forgave me.
01:35:05
Speaker
Which didn't, I mean, obviously only that some of that's true.
01:35:11
Speaker
Like some people might have who didn't fully know the whole story. Uh, or people who did know the whole story, but were unaffected by it financially. We're just like, yeah, we forgive you. No, we've all done the same thing. It's fine. It's just, it's. Oh man. It's just like watching the, watching the the scaffolding crash to the ground. with someone who's climbed so high. like and it's it's such a different like Watching it happen to a celebrity who has like a dark secret you know that they've managed to keep quiet for you know decades or whatever is is one thing. But it's it's like a whole different thing when it's somebody who's literally just built like an empire for themselves.
01:36:03
Speaker
telling people how to act and what to do and putting them, and just the idea that like, I mean, there was people who knew about this. There was a a group of people who knew about it. She talks about like in 2005 when she said, you know, when she lawyered up and tried to get, you know, and asked for $50,000 and stuff, which some of these people, like some of the people like commenting on this things are like, You know, oh I dragged this up from 35 years ago and oh, she made multiple attempts to try to squeeze them for money. It's like $50,000 is not that much dude. It's not much. And it's the only financial recourse is the only thing these fucking people understand. They don't have, there's no moral guidepost anymore. You, you, you're fully diluted yourself to whatever you need to, to get by, to hold your fucking story together. You know, it makes me think of like,
01:36:59
Speaker
Mad Men. Did you watch Mad Men? Nope. Okay. Nevermind. We'll move on. But for, no, for people who did though, you have like, like, uh, the, uh, I'm b blanking on the damn, the main characters, uh, name, uh, Jim. Don Draper, Don Draper. There we go. Sorry. ah And how like he's constantly doing whatever he wants, but trying to hold his worlds together. And it just is constantly falling. It kind of just makes me think of that where it's like.
01:37:35
Speaker
the
01:37:38
Speaker
You're past any ability for probably any legal recourse. you It's going to be hard to get someone in jail based on this. Now, enough people were told and he did respond in a way that suggests he knew he was guilty and that the people in charge of him also believed that that would be helpful if it if there's any you know room for a prosecution. but
01:38:06
Speaker
I don't know it's easy for you know ah sycophants of people like this to paint people who have allegations towards them as like money grubbers or whatever, but it's like, that is the language they understand and good for you. Cause no one's doing great in this world financially. So if someone fucked you over and they have a lot of money and the only thing that they're going to understand is like a recourse is financial payment. Get fucking get your bag. Who gives a fuck? Fuck that guy. Yeah. Well, fifty thousand dollars not enough. he She should have a lot more of his money.
01:38:44
Speaker
you know One of the things I forgot to mention about him too is that he was part of like Trump's count evangelical counsel or whatever during his first
Robert Morris's Public Image and Influence
01:38:53
Speaker
term. and Trump actually did like a ah like a i don't know if it was a campaign stop or whatever in 2020 at his church. and he His job was to run cover for pussy grabbing. Right. Well, it was really petting and it was, you know, between it wasn't what you think it was. It it's like watching. If you were a person who was abused by somebody. Like that would be bad enough, knowing that they went on about their life and that they didn't have any real ramifications or anything.
01:39:33
Speaker
That would drive you crazy, right? But then to watch someone like build an empire for themselves, to become like a, you know, a national personality and leader within like this, you know, spiritual community or something, to know they're making money on top of money on top of money. And like, they're a part of the president's, you know, spiritual council or whatever. And like the whole time, you know that like, one, guy's a pedophile, two, He's never faced any ramifications for what he did to you other than he had to, he had to go be a security guard for two years. Which he views as penance. Like he writes about it in his book as if like, man, that was him serving his time, doing his- I was a lowly security guard. I had all this potential and these gifts and I could be used in so many ways and I had to humble myself to God and step away.
01:40:31
Speaker
It wasn't what I wanted to do, but you know what? I'm thankful I did. I'm thankful I heeded the call. and like it just to To be a person and watch that guy lie his way up the chain and and lecture people about purity and about you know keeping themselves you know righteous for Christ and this and that and the other. yeah I don't know how you keep your sanity in those situations. and and For the people who didn't know about this, because there's a lot of people in the, there's a lot of people in church leadership, I'm sure, that didn't know that this is what went on. Right? Because it's always been represented as like, well, I had a fling with a young lady. I mean, I had an affair. You know, that's how it was told to them. Right. So like, if that's all you knew about it, I mean, you should have done a little digging, but like,
01:41:27
Speaker
I don't know, what what are you going to do? that's I don't blame those people, but there was at least one senior pastor that was a part of the exchange of emails and stuff in 2005 when she approached them about you know like a civil suit. and really gave them the opportunity to settle out of court, and then they you know negotiated their they try to negotiate their way into an NDA for half the money and stuff. like Which is crazy. That was a bad move. Dude, that is the arrogance of these people, though. That is that is like in a nutshell. year You're Robert Morris, and you know you did it, and that there are people who know that you molested a little girl.
01:42:13
Speaker
and And you're sitting around a table with a bunch of scumbag lawyers going like, 50 grand's a lot. I mean, I think we can get her for 25. It's like it's a negotiation. like It's insane. I mean, honestly, like she pro she might have signed that NDA if they would have just paid her. But like that's that's like a continuation of the arrogance of these people and why like yeah there's you cannot expect somebody like this to to place guardrails on their own selves. like No, absolutely not. It's got to come from outside.
01:42:52
Speaker
and like i mean people are really angry at the church, which the church has issued a new statement saying like, well, you know, we didn't know, I'm sorry. And, no you know, we're, our thoughts are with the victims and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, you know, like, classic. Oh, and we've, and we've hired a, you know, a crisis management law firm to conduct a thorough internal investigation of, you know, the four and a half years here that that are in question, you know, like,
01:43:24
Speaker
it it's just protect the institution that is there at all costs protect the institution and I don't know and it like to be the kind of pet person who comments on these things saying like yeah well you know what does she want money Get out of there like what is wrong with you? But that's just This is gonna make my thing look bad and I have you know, and that makes me uncomfortable So I have to find a way to make this her fault like this is actually a moral failing on her part that my thing looks bad Yeah, you know it might cost some of their ministry's impact and you know who wins there other than satan
01:44:07
Speaker
it's what it is it's what again i mean the only language these people seem to speak is finance they don't speak any i mean again like you said they get to tell themselves that anything that causes a hiccup to the empire they've built is the devil coming out well i already i already asked for forgiveness and here in this bible verse it says that God forgives those who ask for it and I asked for it. So therefore she doesn't have anything to stand on, which is why they probably all love the idea of moving towards a theocracy of some sort, ah just remove culpability completely, let them run their own empire. But it also, here I think we're what's hitting me before we, you know, or like before we wrap up is like,
01:44:55
Speaker
ah Our pal, a friend of the show, Amber. Amber Viola and I were messaging back and forth about this because she sent me a Facebook clip of a woman that she was in masters with ah that goes to his church. And it was like this big, like, pray for us, like, you know, I, when we were, when her and I were going back and forth, we didn't know which way she leaned, which I think is a problem in a situation like this. But it was like, ah I think we need to pray for restoration. He's in a grace period, because that's what you do when people like say they have affairs. So it's like a week or two where they figure their shit out. She's like, but to be clear, he, he didn't have an affair. He's like sexually abused a child. But then her other language was also like, but you know,
01:45:54
Speaker
ah yeah Kind of like that Christian language of, we love him. We want restoration for him. We want to pray for him. And I'm like, so what, do you think he should be pastor again? Like, I don't know. And it's just obviously people like that should never, ever, ever, ever, ever be pastors again, ever. They can't be trusted. And two, like what Amber and I were talking about was how the arrogance The narcissism, the manipulation that it takes to do something like this, in the sociopathy, honestly, to a degree, is like not to over, that word's kind of overused, so but regardless,
01:46:44
Speaker
um
01:46:47
Speaker
that it takes to do something like this and cover it up will never, I'll never be comfortable accepting that this is the only victim. I just i don't i don't believe that is possible. I don't know of situations. really where you hear of a person who made that mistake with a 12 year old that one time. That is a sickness that undelt with pops up again. It does. ah Maybe not 100% of the time, but too much percent of the time for us to not be assuming that there are other victims in the wake of this.
01:47:33
Speaker
or to at least be like hypervigilant of the fact that that's the case and to be patiently waiting for them if they're out there to be to be brave and to find the courage. I shouldn't say brave enough if they don't want, but to find the courage ah and the the reason for themselves to talk about it. Yeah, I can't imagine that we won't hear about more victims here in the coming weeks and months and stuff, but I don't know, man, it's, I feel bad for, for Cindy. Uh, what a terrible burden to like have to carry around for most of your life, you know, but, uh, hopefully this is at least she knows her dad. She probably knows her dad tried to deal at some point. Like until you're an adult, it's hard to.
01:48:24
Speaker
to realize that you that other options were available to you. It was like, well, I was a kid and this happened and my dad did this thing and he stopped, but then he was back and we were like, what can we do? And then you're an adult and you go, oh no, there's there's shit we can do. There's something else we can do. And no one gave me those options as a kid. No one was there for me the way they should have been. And now I'm stuck trying to fucking figure this out as an adult. Yeah. And, you know, to be clear, I think she's, I'm by every, by the sounds of the things that I've read, it sounds like she's, you know, good with her dad and she doesn't blame him for like any of this stuff that happened here. But I do think, yeah, to that so that, to your point, like, you know, it's one thing for a victim, a victim who doesn't want to go through, you know, the, the,
01:49:24
Speaker
everything involved with like coming forward and you know can professing what happened and you know all of that stuff. If if this is if it's your kid, you it's your your duty to to make that happen. you know and like yeah i Maybe maybe you know he's a guy that doesn't like conflict, maybe he felt pressure from you know multiple angles and stuff like that. like I think, you I mean, I think it's, there's a reasonable chance that like, she's not the only victim. And if he went on to do this to other people, I mean. There's some culpability there. I'm a guy who doesn't like conflict. And I know if anything like that ever happened to my kids, I would burn that person's fucking world to the ground. Sam's pretty good with a 44 mag.
01:50:21
Speaker
Yeah, Casey's seen me in action. yeah i think I think I hit one out of six times. He's never shot a gun before and we'd shoot a whole bunch of different ones that I'm like, which one do you like? He's like, the huge one. The one you saw me jerking off right before I fired it, Casey. You didn't see me do that? like Don't slobber on it. It's bad for the pitch. I had it in my mouth. He's like, no, Sam, don't do that. It's loaded.
01:50:51
Speaker
Well, uh, all our best to Cindy. Cindy, we hope you get everything that you deserve out of this deal. Congrats on this guy having to step down. Uh, you know, screw you gateway church for covering this up and then allowing him to just. You know, step back away from the, from the, you know, pitcher's mound rather than firing him like you should have, you know, screw you guys for carrying water for him, you know, in the days, weeks, and years prior to this. And, um, I don't know, I hope you get hit with some lawsuits and stuff. That would be great. So we will keep an eye on this and see where it goes.
01:51:35
Speaker
But yeah, so um thank you everyone for listening. Thank you for your patience with our internet, our hotel internet problems. Glad we finally got to talk about this because I've been listening to stuff about it for like a week. Yeah. our first Man, I still, ah I'm still blown away and out of 187 episodes. This is our first week. The first week we did not pull one out. Well, I should say last week was the first week you did not pull one out. It's crazy. We're a couple of hustlers. We grind baby. Is that what we do? Is that, uh, how are we supposed to talk about ourselves so that way people take it seriously? What? Yeah. I think if you're a right-winger, it's you, you, you grind. If you're a left leaning person, you, you do the work.
01:52:36
Speaker
You stop and you listen, but we mostly talk.
01:52:44
Speaker
Anyways, we hope you guys enjoyed the show and we will talk to you next time.