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S5.E4 - Not All Marketing Budgets are Made Equal
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It's all marketing and PR this week as we get into the realities of it, talk about how different books get different budgets and the things that authors can do themselves to help spread the word about their books and themselves.
- Naomi Gibson, author of Every Line of You, Game Over Girl, Man Muse Monster
- Melissa Welliver, author of The Undying Tower, My Love Life and the Apocalypse, Soulmates and Other Ways to Die, To the Death
- Jamie Greenwood, creator & host of The Write and Wrong Podcast
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Transcript
Listener Engagement and Story Sharing
00:00:00
Speaker
Hello, we would love to hear from you. If you have any stories or anecdotes about publishing, good or bad, we would love to hear about them and we'll talk about them. Or if you just have any questions or if you think it's anything we missed in in this episode or any of the previous episodes, reach out to us. You can find all of us on social media, on Instagram, or wherever it might be, or you can head it to the Right and Wrong podcast website. Yeah, all our DMs are open. Send us messages, let know what what you've been up to in publishing. We'd love to talk about it and and hear about it.
Character Analysis: Shrek vs. Christian Grey
00:00:29
Speaker
Shrek and Christian Grey are different characters. You heard it here first. I'm finished it. After every episode was like, oh my gosh, I'm so angry at these toxic characters. Like, shove more food in my mouth across the next episode. Because I loved it, but obviously I hate it. This is so much fun. Because this is it my Malfoy-Himayali fan.
00:00:49
Speaker
Oh, yeah. She shouldn't have done that. I'm trying to make Neville happen. It's too
00:00:57
Speaker
too ice breakups yes This is an interesting
Game: Guess the Book from a One-Star Review
00:01:05
Speaker
one. guess the Guess the book by the One Star of Review. I think this is really obvious if you've read the book, but I don't know if either of you have read it. So let's see.
00:01:13
Speaker
who If a man asks me wholeheartedly to become a fish on our wedding day, I'm leaving him at the altar. Oh, what? yeah no I don't think i have written this that was a review become a fish so apparently there is a line and it might be the last line of the book but it's also like repeated throughout that there is a line and in this book which is it is my wish for you to be my fish And this repeats apparently. i feel like I would have read that if I had read it. I don't I've read this.
00:01:51
Speaker
I'll give you a clue. Yeah. It's ah it's a sequel prequel to a very famous book. Oh, God. Um... ah is it like Is it like a romance? Is it? Yeah. Yes.
00:02:05
Speaker
feel like it must be a romance. Is it like the time traveler's wife or something random? it's it's ah It's been in the news a lot recently. i don't read the news, Jamie. We stay away from the news. Sorry, it's been it's been in the gossipy news a lot recently. Yeah.
00:02:25
Speaker
ah thinking like is it like a bridget jones thing or it's not i don't think you guys are going get it no it is it starts with us by oh god jo on oh no my 14 year old cousin would know shout out to uh probably not letting that 14 year old she loves it though it's got back into readings well she probably got if she was listening she probably got this immediately they did yeah i'll send it to her The line apparently is recurring. It is my wish for you to be my fish. And then apparently the last line of the novel is PS. It is my wish for you to be my fish.
00:03:01
Speaker
don't remember that in the yeah film. Well, that the the film is the... Oh, it ends with us. so Yes. Yeah. And then this one starts with us. That actually makes more sense. you've said prequel sequel. That was a good hit now. I feel bad.
Marketing Misconceptions for Debut Authors
00:03:16
Speaker
Okay. um We are doing... the misconceptions around marketing and PR, uh, on this episode. I think, uh, I'm largely going to be turning this one over to you guys as you have sort of firsthand experience with this, but let's start off with just saying what I think is one of the, another like very big kind of standout preconceptions with publishing. And that is, um, if people haven't been around this industry or or this, you know, you're getting in as your date with your debut novel, you've signed, ah
00:03:49
Speaker
I think a lot of the the expectation is that you've signed with a publisher and now once that book comes out, you're going to see it on buses and magazines lining the walls of your local station. It's going to have its own arrangement and table in the bookshop.
00:04:02
Speaker
Alas, this is rarely the case. Um, in fact, I mean, I'm, I can't think of a debut author that has had that full encompassing marketing treatment, uh,
00:04:16
Speaker
like at all. yeah This is the kind of treatment you'll see for like a Richard Osman novel or, you know, a big, um either a big name author or a big name franchise coming up.
00:04:29
Speaker
The only caveat for that is celebrities. Obviously, if you were in or in the vicinity of the UK when Spare came out a few years ago, you basically couldn't escape Prince Harry's face staring at you. That's true, that was an awkward cover.
00:04:47
Speaker
hu And then all the all the clips when the audio book came out, you just couldn't get away from it. Yeah, that's true. I haven't read that book. But yeah, generally. Yeah, I feel like I have read that book. Yes.
00:04:58
Speaker
Yeah. I think I've heard enough of the clips and on like Instagram and stuff to be like, I think I got the good bits. A little the bit where he's singing in it. um Yeah, let's go with that bit. Yeah, let's not talk about the other bit where he talks about his mom. Yeah.
00:05:15
Speaker
um So yeah, that ah maybe 30 years ago, ah yeah that was a more likely the scenario where you know you wouldn't have to do so much.
00:05:26
Speaker
um the The publisher would kind of really go all out on marketing. But nowadays, unless you're, like I said, a big name author or a very famous celebrity, you're unlikely to have um that kind of full full rollout.
Naomi's Debut Novel Marketing Experience
00:05:41
Speaker
ah When it comes to both of you, we've definitely chatted about this ah on episodes of Right and Wrong and then probably a bit in the in the previous season of this, but it's worth retreading some ground here, I think.
00:05:52
Speaker
I thought a good place to start might be if we if we cast our minds back to your debut novels, which I know is a more complicated thing for Melissa. ah so we'll start with Naomi.
00:06:03
Speaker
When you signed your debut, Every Line of View, what were your... Do you remember what your expectations were in terms of how the marketing and PR would work when the book came out?
00:06:14
Speaker
Is it even something you thought about?
00:06:18
Speaker
I was very green. i was... Everyone is. they are. um i you know ah came into publishing with no contacts. I called queried agents to get my agent. I had no idea.
00:06:34
Speaker
um So like everybody else who's come in that way, you see the big books. and So you see the... adverts like on the tube or the train stations and whatever so i think part of me don't know if I was expecting that but when they said um we're gonna excuse me we're gonna make you a lead title I think, oh, that's probably what I'm going to get. But then also I recognized that my publishing deal was also not that big in the sense that, okay, so 12 half thousand pounds is not to be sniffed at, but it's not a hundred thousand pounds, you know, and the publisher that I'd landed at um was kind of like a midsize to small. it wasn't like a big five publisher so i think um my expectations were kind of already tempered even though everybody dreams about the big billboard everybody dreams about tv advert or something so i i don't and i think i went in hoping for it but also aware that i probably wasn't going to get it um yeah but i think i did get a lot because i was a lead title
00:07:40
Speaker
and And I think what some people don't understand um when when a team looks at where they're going to put their marketing budget, what they're really doing is where they're going to put their staff time.
00:07:54
Speaker
and yeah I think a lot of staff time went into career. in the sense that I had a foreign rights department who were gunning for my book, basically pushing it at every country they could, they had a contact at. And I ended up with 11 foreign territory deals, which when you get, i'm they were like shouting about it as much as they could. um And i got a film and TV option, which again, they shouted about as much as they could. i think i got an article in the bookseller about that and so i think yeah i think marketing budget mostly went into staff time and then also um early finished copies were pretty much rammed down any every instagrammer's throat um had an basically and we sent out so many early finished copies and invited everybody to do a read-along where
00:08:52
Speaker
You read a certain amount of the book every day across a week. So you finish the book ah at the end of the week and you post a picture of the book every day. and and so I had a ton of people doing that for me. um And that was quite a valuable experience. And that worked really well because when you log on on Instagram, you scroll and you see the same thing over and over again.
00:09:12
Speaker
it just generates that buzz. And so I think that was quite a clever way to, um, to market your book, have other people kind of do it for you basically. yeah. yeah Um, and then what else did they do? and I got in a book box so they, so again, staff time, they were pitching me to a book box and we sold, i think it was like 600 copies to this book box and meant I got a spread edge because of that. So I didn't get the billboard.
00:09:43
Speaker
and I didn't get the TV advert, but I got a lot of staff time. And I think that is really, really valuable.
Melissa's Micro-Publisher Experience
00:09:50
Speaker
Yeah, that's really good. To be honest, it sounds like you got a really good suite for a debut author. yeah Yeah, I did. Especially from a, like you said, like it's it's not a big five. it No, no. Well, they're owned by a big five, but they're a you know middle kind of range publisher. Yeah, I got a lot of time. It was good.
00:10:07
Speaker
Yeah, it's ah it's interesting. I hadn't written a note down for this, but then lead title is an interesting phrase because I've spoken to lots of authors who have been lead titles and the there's no like set playbook on what that actually means or what it results in.
00:10:25
Speaker
My experience is that for you, it seems like you felt it and you were like, oh yeah, it does feel like I'm getting more than I would have had I just been a ah regular title, I guess. But then I've also spoken, and I think Philip Cavadius talked about this on when he came on the podcast recently, where he was like, I'm not really sure what the difference was with being a lead title versus versus not. And maybe that's just because...
00:10:46
Speaker
he, he, you know, he had nothing to compare it to, but it does seem to, to vary widely between i presum publishers and probably between editors, probably between, um books.
00:10:58
Speaker
Possibly between categories as well, because Philip was middle grade, whereas I was YA. I don't know if they would have had different plans of attack for those two categories anyway. Yeah, i do and I do a lot of interviews with Fourth Estate, which is mostly literary fiction.
00:11:16
Speaker
And there they do their lead titles, you you really feel in terms of like the the promotion and things like that, you really feel that they are pushing a lead title. I guess, in I think in adult, it probably has, which is a much bigger market than middle grade and children's.
00:11:33
Speaker
being a lead title maybe actually means a lot more. I mean, it might just be a order of scale. There's a lot more money in adult. So you being a lead title that will just be amplified by the scale of how much more, how big, how much bigger that market is.
00:11:47
Speaker
Yeah, that's true. Yeah. It feels like it's a term that's sometimes thrown around. So definitely in Naomi's case, I'd say, because that's very different to my experience. So I would say, yes, Naomi, you were definitely like considered a lead title, even though it was a medium sized publisher. But then I know other people that have been told lead title and you wonder if that baby changes over time.
00:12:08
Speaker
um So like, you know, there's a two year lead up to your book coming out and they might say when you're looking to sign, you will be a lead title. But as you say, that doesn't mean anything. And then suddenly it might feel like, oh, I'm not actually doing anything different to all the other people I've met through the publisher.
00:12:22
Speaker
Like I'm not getting anything different. And then also supposedly title is something that they put on something before they know if it's going to be popular. So they're essentially saying, yeah, we're going to push this and we're really hoping it's going to be super popular. Whereas if a book maybe isn't a lead title, quote unquote, and then goes on to get loads of hype and then comes out and is really big. and The one that pops into my head, he was talking about his YouTube channel is Bill Wood's debut was not a lead title. But when it came out, it just had loads and loads and loads of hype around it from day one because he'd been pushing it so hard on his socials. And also he got this sprayed edge and just certain things fell into place. He talks about this in his YouTube channel. Certain things fell into place, like lucky things that meant that lots of people were talking about it already.
00:12:59
Speaker
So, of course, now it's kind of become a lead title for them because it would be stupid not to. It's got a TV development series and it's got all sorts of things. Lows of Territory sold ah the fastest selling debut YA in the UK of 2024 something. So obviously they're going to make a lead title now. a lead title is interesting to me because I feel like it's something that happens before they really technically know what the reaction is going to be.
00:13:23
Speaker
Yeah. And yeah, like you said, they'll generally I've seen lots of publishers. If something is working with a certain book, they will double down on that. though'll They'll, they'll, they'll try and really push something if it's already seems to be gaining traction. Yes.
00:13:40
Speaker
And that can be, whether that's a lead title or whether that's, you know, anything else that they're releasing. So it can change. It feels like, yeah, it is in, yeah, yeah for sure. So I guess, it yeah, when if you're told that you're a lead title, it's like, that's the plan.
00:13:55
Speaker
Things could change. but equally, you know, optimistically, if you're not a lead title, yes obviously, though I don't think they'll ever say say you're now a lead title with the book if they hadn't already said it.
00:14:08
Speaker
But you might end up getting a ton more marketing and PR from your team than you than you would have before if the the book just finds, you know, a good niche or it hits the ground running.
00:14:19
Speaker
I think that that worked for and someone else in Skylark as well. And so they had like quite a big online platform and their middle grade and was just picked up by Puffin. and i don't believe it was like a particularly big deal or anything like that. And and as soon as it had a cover and it was available for pre-order, and this guy just put it on his socials and he said, it just took off and he had like so many pre-orders um because people wanted to support him because um he was right he's lgbt and he was writing an lgbt story and and he got so much support in pre-orders that his publisher like you could see he was in our chat and he was you could just see the fact that his publisher were like oh this book's got traction and um suddenly he was he had different publishing date which was the first of the month which was a very big clue of what was going to happen and then all of a sudden he's waterstones book of the month and you know waterstones would be looking as well and they could see oh this guy's got loads of pre-orders let's let's try and get some some action on this as well and so he ended up waterstones book of the month because of um just plugging his book on his on his online platform and so yeah he wasn't a lead title like you guys are saying and he ended up what was his book of the month because um he just plugged it so much on his socials so it definitely can happen
00:15:40
Speaker
Yeah, it's all in the state of flux always, especially with how big social media has become as part of um not just in books and and in publishing, but just generally in terms of marketing and things like that.
00:15:54
Speaker
Melissa, getting us back on track here. Where were we at? The first time around for you was the first release of The Undying Tower.
00:16:05
Speaker
yeah but I imagine that was quite a different situation to Naomi. What were your expectations in terms of PR and marketing? you Did you already have a decent understanding of the industry before you did that?
00:16:17
Speaker
ah No, nothing. i was exactly the same as Naomi. I didn't know anyone in publishing ah before. And then I was on submission for a long time. ah It was my second agent and we sold this book. And I say sold because it was a it was a very small, it was a micro publisher.
00:16:35
Speaker
um They were excellent. The two people that worked there still work in the industry. and The publishers now since folded. and And they were very good at their jobs and they really cared about every book they took. so They only took, I think, like six a year.
00:16:50
Speaker
But it was explained to me in quite broad terms, listen, there's no advance for this book. So in some ways, some people consider traditionally published in terms competitions and stuff that you get in advance. So there's no advance. Now, this is obviously more common and things like digital first and stuff, but it wasn't really like explained that way then. I don't think it was as as popular a model. and And they said, you know, it will try and do a print run, but then it'll probably be like a print on demand thing. You're our first YA title. They'd not really done YA before, ah but the book had been out on submission and no one was biting.
00:17:23
Speaker
So ah my agent was quite like blunt. She explained, you know, this is not a huge publisher. It would be unlikely you would be a huge like megastar success of the back of this deal. But I was willing to kind of give it a go because I'd been years and years in the trenches at that point.
00:17:40
Speaker
in the submission trenches so I wanted to give something a go. So I actually had really, really, really low expectations and they actually fully enough exceeded a lot of them. They got me on a book fairy thing so they gave away 100 copies with book fairies to plant around the place. They did loads of online stuff and must have sent out 100 copies all around the world as well. Someone from India contacted me to say that they had a copy and they're excited about reading And they did sort of these proofs that were all different colors that they did. I loved that. Yeah, it was like they did quite a lot. That was so cool. And actually not expecting such a big push. And for a very tiny micro publisher, they were thrilled with my sales, even though they're nowhere near what my sales like midlist sales are. And so it was a very different experience. It was very positive experience, even though they weren't huge sales particularly. And I got the particular people that they targeted. I got such a good response for that book. It's got like my best average review score online. I think it has the most reviews out of any of my books online. It might just be topped by Love Life. I'm not quite sure. Certainly on Goodreads, it does really, really well.
00:18:48
Speaker
and it does well across like adult audiences and teen audiences. like It just was received very, very well. And they pushed it very, very hard. um Whereas the difference is when I got my first, as it would be called, traditional deal with an advance, which was with Chicken House, um you know, they...
Self-Promotion Strategies for Authors
00:19:06
Speaker
They told me early on again, i think I think that's where my expectations went out the window because I was then thinking, oh my God, they've given me money. Like, obviously I'm going to get, I got all this from Agora, that tiny micro press. I'm going to get a frigging parade for this book because it's with a traditional press and they've invested money in me. And, you know, um and obviously that just isn't where that goes. um They're a mid-sized press.
00:19:30
Speaker
I got... what was allocated to me marketing wise. You don't get to talk really about marketing budget. um You know, I would ask certain things. I'd say like, oh, could we maybe do bookmarks? And they said, we're not really doing bookmarks right now. So I did my own bookmarks, that kind of thing. Whereas and Agora did my bookmarks. So I think in a way it felt quite challenge ah fall even though I was probably getting the same amount of marketing as most of the other people at the publishing house. So they weren't treating me any differently. It wasn't like that. It wasn't treat me like crap or anything like that. It's just, I was expecting a lot more because I'd been with this micro press and they'd given me so much. And that was literally a team of two people.
00:20:07
Speaker
And they to them, the book was so important. And it was one of like five things. Whereas at Chicken House, i was one of, i think, is it 30 books a year they put out? Something like that, someone once told me. Or maybe they acquire. i don't know about putting out, but they like sort of acquire like 30 books a year, which again, is not huge in terms of publishing houses, but it was much, much bigger than what I was used to.
00:20:27
Speaker
um yeah so yeah i think it was i think the expectations were really wildly each way and the other the first deal i wasn't expecting anything and got i felt like i got loads and then the second one i think i was expecting a lot and then obviously didn't understand the industry well enough to know no that wasn't exactly how it was gonna go yeah that's interesting we well we all met through my podcast and Yeah. Was that something that did you two?
00:20:55
Speaker
I can't remember. Did you do both just individually message? Naomi told me about it.
00:21:02
Speaker
How did, how did we get in touch, Jamie? Cause then I think. I actually think it was Phillip. yes oh yeah because it's skylock yeah yeah okay um so you know people in publishing is helpful once you get to know people i know and then i found myself in a 2021 debut group on twitter and i said oh my friend jamie is he's got a new podcast he's looking to interview people and and i put in a link to your site and everybody you know who's anybody in a debut chat wants to talk to everybody So I think you've got like loads of people contact you off that. And then yeah was not I saw it such and think that's how Meliva.
00:21:41
Speaker
it was It's great though because authors, a debut author is like just so, they just want to chat to anybody, you know? And like, it it I'm like, this guy's got a podcast, he's setting up. I was like, yeah, cool. Okay. I'm going to go, I'm going to do it. And they just I think they just want to feel like they're doing something. So I think it worked out really nicely for everybody. Yeah. I mean, yeah, it was great because when you're starting out, let me tell you when you start out a podcast where you want to interview people, it's like a little bit hard to just be like, yes, we don't have any episodes right now. Yeah. But you just trust us. And like yeah there were some people that were bigger in the industry that were happy to trust us, which was great.
00:22:14
Speaker
But ah yeah, that was that was a great use to us. But on from that, then. first, so first time around, how much of the sort of promotion did you guys, how much did you do yourselves versus like whatever the but the publisher did?
00:22:36
Speaker
I like what I just said, I grabbed anything that came my way via the debut group. So, um, so Philip put in touch with you. um i got another interview similarly that way just three people saying here's the podcast i was on go and apply to be on it and so i did and amy mccall i think was also setting up her youtube channel at the time and i asked as i can't remember we just we both said all do you want to be on it at the same time and so that was how i ended up on there um and just
00:23:10
Speaker
yeah I tried to do as many of of that kind of thing as I could and and get on as many online events as I could because that was all I could really control and and do so I just applied for stuff and and then just I was screaming and shouting about my book as much as I could on social media and I looking back I don't think there was much more that I could have done.
00:23:34
Speaker
Um, tick tock wasn't really a thing back then. Um, it was all Twitter and Instagram. Uh, and so I was just kind of plugging away at those. So and anything online that I could, that I came across, I basically gunned for.
00:23:50
Speaker
Yeah. What about you, Melissa? um I think with the first publisher, and really I'm realizing I'm just sort of advocating for if you get an offer from a small publisher and they like, oh, they're too small or whatever, like honestly, they will care so much about your book. So with the first publisher, they were doing a lot. And also I was offering a lot.
00:24:09
Speaker
So um I was in the 2021 debut group. And once you get into that and you actually meet other people in publishing and other published authors, I'm They're telling you, my publisher has suggested this really cool thing. And you think, that's cool. I want to do that. That's where i heard about book fairies. So i was like, I want to do that. So I suggested that to them and then they ran with it.
00:24:27
Speaker
um And I had like marketing plans and I had ideas I would do. i was applying to podcasts like your one. um So I was doing a lot and they were doing a lot. And then I think with my first traditional book deal,
00:24:39
Speaker
I perhaps took my foot off the gas a little bit because I was kind of expecting them to pick up a lot of this. I just thought, well, they're a bigger publisher. They'll know about all these things that I already was telling my previous publisher about that. You know, some of them, some of the stuff they knew about other stuff they hadn't heard about my smaller publisher.
00:24:59
Speaker
So I think I was like expecting them to pick up a lot of stuff. So then I took my foot off the gas, not realizing the certain things that probably I should have been doing. The thing that they did do at Chicken House is they did. They asked me, are you willing to do a book launch? And I was like, yes. And then they said, OK, great. We're going to do a double one. And they they did pay for both. So they did um one in London and one in Manchester because my book was launching during London Fair week. So they were in London. So Chicken House aren't in London. Most publishers are. and They're outside. But because they were there that week, then they helped set both of those launches up. So that was something that they did that my other publisher wouldn't have even... i mean, it was COVID anyway, but my other publisher was I don't think they would have been able to help out in the same way with a book launch. So there's different things that you get as well. It's not necessarily...
00:25:48
Speaker
One was better than the other or anything like that. But you definitely have to do quite a lot yourself in reference to the previous question. Like I think I think people underestimate how much you need to put yourself out there.
00:26:00
Speaker
Yeah, for sure.
The Role of Freelance PR in Book Promotion
00:26:02
Speaker
Where are you guys at on, because I've spoken to a few authors, some on the podcast, some openly, some who you know privately, who have, um even with traditional publishing, got involved with um a freelance PR agency or just like ah an individual.
00:26:22
Speaker
to go sort of like sit alongside everything, all the marketing and and stuff that the the publisher is doing for them. What do he obviously there's, that's an additional cost for as the author.
00:26:34
Speaker
um What do you guys think about that? And have you guys heard of heard of other authors doing that as well? yeah Yes, a lot of them do. And I know somebody who they don't. So I know authors and especially some self-published authors that have asked and paid for like one day with their marketing guru because it is very expensive because they have a very particular skill and that's what they charge. Fair enough. and So it's, I mean, we're talking hundreds of pounds a day quite often. So it's out of most people's hands if they've not already been paid a six-figure deal. so And the people with a six or seven-figure deal are probably getting quite a lot of marketing. I wouldn't look at that. so it's a bit of catch-22. But I do know a lot of authors that pay for their own ads on Instagram.
00:27:13
Speaker
Like loads of authors are traditionally published. Yeah, I know quite a few, which surprised me. In a way, i was like, are you even able to do that? And then I was like, of course you are. You can advertise really anything within legal terms. like you You can. So I don't see why you couldn't just advertise your own book from your own account. So yeah, I do know people that do that.
00:27:29
Speaker
I spoke to um ah an author who is also works in PR. And just just as as i could her loose distinction, when i i basically just want to ask, what is the difference between PR and marketing? And she said very loosely, there's more nuanced in this, but very loosely, PR involves like the author being there. So a lot of PR is more focused on the author's brand.
00:27:54
Speaker
as well as the the book itself whereas marketing is stuff which is like adverts and things like that where the order doesn't the author doesn't need to be present for the for the thing. and then And the reason I'm mentioning that is because what she was saying is um she often works with authors who are traditionally published um focusing on the PR aspect of things because the publisher will do a lot to market your book. They won't do as much to market you as a as an author. That's often the part, like both of you said, coming on this book, on on like my, not this podcast, the other podcast, um and then like doing other podcasts and that that was things you organized yourselves, the publisher didn't. yeah And the publishers do. I talk to lots of publicists. They do get you on podcasts, but...
00:28:34
Speaker
generally they're focused on marketing the book so i think yeah it isn't if it's something you're thinking about doing as an author it is i would probably look into speaking to someone ideally who does both marketing and pr but like pr is a focus because you're more likely to get more out of it in terms making this a long term i've heard it described lot more cynically than that i've heard publicity yeah publicity is free and marketing is paid that's what i've heard So publicity is anything you can do where you won't get paid a fee and it's free for you to do. It just costs your time.
00:29:06
Speaker
And marketing is like advertising. Yeah. So I guess that's just the cynical way of. It's of the Mine was more optimistic. you the The cost of PR is like your time. Yes.
00:29:21
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. But I, I've got, i i know people who've hired their own sort of marketing careers alongside their traditional publishing deal. And I'm, i'm Maybe I'm a bit cynical about this as well, but I'm not sure. um Because I think a lot of the time you you think, oh, yes, a marketing guru, they'll go away and they'll do it for me. Whereas I think when you hire one, actually, they just give you a list of things to do for you. They're not going to actually go and do things for you. They're just going to tell you what you need to do So I think there's like this big misconception that you're hiring someone to go squirrel away in the background and do things for you. Whereas actually, no, they're going to tell you what you need to do. And you're probably, and I think that the list of things that they're going to give you you, you can find out on your own. Like if you do some research and if you go away and you look at this loads of like, um, blogs of like published authors who who tell you what to do. There was um a couple people who've got like timelines, like a six month timeline, and you can see what you need to be doing at each point in the timeline.
00:30:21
Speaker
ah You know, if you go away and you you look for it, you can find it yourself and you can drum up a list of things to do. i don't think you need to. Sorry, marketing and PR people. I don't think you need to pay hundreds of pounds for someone to do that for you. If if you were paying them. You don't need to.
00:30:37
Speaker
Yeah, if you were paying them hundreds of pounds and they were going to go away and actually work for you and actually do things for you, that's quite a different story. But I think in reality, most of them just tell you what you should be doing. And I don't know, it depends how precious your time is, but you could probably find that out yourself. Sorry.
00:30:54
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah.
TikTok as a Tool for Book Marketing
00:30:55
Speaker
In defense of freelance marketers, ah sorry it's sort of like it's sort of like um getting a personal trainer because i like that yeah let's too if you if you if you are willing to do the research, there is 10 times more than enough information about how to work out and what exercises you need to do online.
00:31:15
Speaker
if you If you have the time, if you are willing to like throw yourself into that, you get a trainer because you want someone to quickly tell you, someone very knowledgeable to basically quickly tell you what you need to do and basically give you that motivation to be like, okay, that's great. We need to do more of that. You need to like do a bit more of this, put a bit more time into that.
00:31:33
Speaker
Like I understand you could do it, like most things, you could do it entirely by yourself. If, you know, depending on your time restrictions and like availability, that's why I would imagine getting that.
00:31:44
Speaker
But i but in some in some ways I do agree. And i think um I think that's why if you were going to do it, I think for getting someone to focus on the PR stuff is often a better route for that.
00:31:57
Speaker
It's also, if going by our previous definitions, it's also going to be less money because marketing mostly is paid, as we said. Yeah, yeah that's true as well. You're basically getting someone to be like, okay, here's the best places is we can we can put you out there. We can get you to do like online magazine articles or like interviews, podcasts, whatever it might be. yeah And that could be really useful. And they might have contacts which you wouldn't otherwise have. You know, I know a lot of a lot of freelance publicists I have a relationship with on on Right and Wrong podcast and they'll message me specific authors and things like that.
00:32:30
Speaker
Yeah. So like with both Agora and Chicken House, they focused quite heavily on PR stuff for obvious reasons because it's free for both them and us And they would have those contacts. So they have, and you know, my particular marketing person was a freelance person that um works mostly with Chicken House, but with other people as well. And they would offer exactly like free articles. I would write, not get paid for, but they would go into magazines where say lots of teachers. And so they were like very focused. So like the magazine would be for so like teachers and booksellers or something. So then they might see that or it'd be an online article on a website like ah Reading Rocks or something like that.
00:33:10
Speaker
So they would target and they would have those um contacts. And, you know, they would tell me as well, we're sending out to newspapers. So it's not that they refuse to market your book. They might tell you we've sent out to all the newspapers. I have a friend that works in journalism has worked on a paper and also a BBC five live. And he said, Oh God, they get like 40 books in the morning post and 40 books in the afternoon post. And they can what highlight like five a week. Are you joking? Like it's basically either look,
00:33:37
Speaker
Or I think a lot of people just assume, oh, the best books in Times Book of the Week or whatever that's being advertised, and they must be the best written books. Pretty much all the books that get to this level, whether it be trad or self, if you've put it through loads of editors, if it's gone through loads of gatekeepers, are all pretty much the same standard of book. So that's not really true that only the best books. It can be look. It could be it had a really cool cover and they opened it. It could be that like the topic appealed to them. It can be in any number of things that they picked up your book and decided to highlight it. So again, with marketing, there is luck involved. Like it's not that they didn't do any of those things. Just some of them didn't come off.
00:34:13
Speaker
Of course they wouldn't. They can't come off for everyone. Yeah. I wonder if, um in fact, I don't even wonder, I know that that that kind of saturation where it's like the newspaper is like, you know, we can only promote so many books yeah per week, you know, when we're getting all these books every day. yeah That saturation must also be happening with influencers on Instagram and TikTok and things.
00:34:36
Speaker
Oh God, yeah, it must be. I feel like just a few years ago, it was much easier for publishers to just send out a bunch of books and they knew that the the the influencers would read them and like do a post about them. I think now a lot more of them are more savvy about writing.
00:34:55
Speaker
doing sponsored posts so that the the publisher has to pay them if it's like a big if they have a certain number of followers they they're like no i'm only gonna i'm not gonna do a post about this unless you pay me x amount so it's that what we were talking about earlier where you get that kind of organic social media growth that is becoming more monetized and a bit more locked in than it was before. I think, I mean, it's still, it's such a big space and there's always another influencer. And I have no idea how that TikTok algorithm works because it does sometimes just seem to pick a random video from someone who doesn't have many views and it just blows up and then it suddenly has a million views.
00:35:34
Speaker
Yeah, that's true. Actually, the algorithm is an untamable beast. I still understand. And I've been trying very hard. Speaking of marketing, I've been trying very hard. I've like, there's lots of TikTok accounts for obvious reasons that literally their entire account is how to blow up your account.
00:35:49
Speaker
Like that's their entire purpose. So I've been following lots of those. and I've been following the tips. I've been posting at X time of day or reposting this B-roll and doing all of the tips that you see. And has it worked?
00:36:00
Speaker
To a degree, yes. I had basically a few hundred followers. And now I've over 1,100 followers. And in like two months of bothering to do this, And also my views have gone from like 200 views to at least 700, sometimes like five that up to 5,000. So it's definitely working.
00:36:17
Speaker
But am I viral? Have I sold a billion books? No, I have not. That's not happened. how How do you find it? do you find it like yeah draining? Do you find it... Are you enjoying it?
00:36:32
Speaker
you know what I mean? It's been all right because I've learned what works on my account. So I find it really fast to upload now. I have loads and loads of B-roll. I used to make really long videos about going to a book event and I'd be like, yeah, it's really good book event. Here's me. And I'd take like five second video of me walking there, five second video of the bookshop. all this kind stuff. And then I talk over the top. And those videos never did particularly well. They're quite long, wordy. I've still got them up on my TikTok. But because I have all that B-roll, as it's called, I just shove that into other videos. And any that do particularly well, I reuse and just put words over the video. So it's not that difficult. I can do it from my pajamas without my hair brushed. I don't need to record myself.
00:37:14
Speaker
So it's fine. like I've not found it too bad, actually. But I have got quicker at it. like Now I can do it literally in a minute. It's not problem. It's five-second video. I know what hook I'm using, blah, blah, blah. but I'm trying to take your advice because you've been talking about this for a little while. and I've started posting just once a day because I feel like that's all I can give to it. And yeah and i I have actually got more followers.
00:37:35
Speaker
and yeah But then and TikTok's like so weird with followers. It's like, does that even... just evenve Okay, so I've got a thousand followers, but I feel like if i post a video, it doesn't go out to a thousand people because the algorithm is so weird.
00:37:48
Speaker
it's just Yeah, I find that weird. And then once you get over a thousand followers, you can look at some yeah like information. Again, this is probably where a marketing person who actually knows what they're doing could look at this information and give me what I could be doing with this. That could be a good reason to hire a marketing person perhaps. Maybe a TikTok data analyzer. I know I have friends who work in marketing and for corporations and they literally analyze stuff like TikTok or Instagram, see which ads are working, et cetera. So that possibly I'm just misunderstanding the information and I'm just following the tips and it's worked okay. But yeah, unless you get, and obviously if there was a tip for every single person to get a 2 million view video, then everyone would have one.
00:38:25
Speaker
So there's nothing that would definitely work every single time, but it's definitely helping. And i do I do notice my little Amazon ranking, which is the only thing we really get as cloud publishers, does tick up every now and then after I've had a video with like a few thousand views. So I think one person has then gone and pre-ordered, which is good. And I have the link in my bio. have it really easy, you know, all the stuff you're supposed to see yeah So perhaps it is working a little bit. Be interesting see if it keeps growing and if it would snowball at any point. But I keep you posted on my TikTok adventures.
00:38:57
Speaker
i Yeah, I do. I'm going to stalk you and do whatever you do.
Upcoming Novel Promotion Plans
00:39:03
Speaker
ah On from that then, the sort of last bit that I wanted to ask you guys is now that you are much wiser and a little bit older, you both have new novels in the works, um which will be released at some point in the not so distant future.
00:39:21
Speaker
Other than this massive viral TikTok growth that you're planning, do you guys have a plan for how you're going to, you know, how you're going to approach the promotional side of things this time around?
00:39:33
Speaker
Yes, I do. I have a spreadsheet and everything. Wow. i know. and I can't wait for the charts of data. It's got a graph. like ah you no I knew it was. i So I think, yeah, so what what I learned worked for me last time was um proofs. I think sending out copies to to influencers and Instagrammers and picking that kind of thing. and So I think I'm going to try and capitalize on that again.
00:40:02
Speaker
um whether my publisher wants to do that for me i don't know because I'm not a lead title this time however I do know that I'm going to get some proofs everybody gets like their own box of them don't know they get like author copies so I'm just gonna capitalize on that and um do as much as that as I can and post as much as I can on social media I think and I've got like a list of things I'm going to post I've already made like I don't know ideas so yeah so other than my podcasts are you going to try and go on any like do like interviews or like try and get stuff written in magazines and stuff like that or do other podcasts there are other podcasts yours is the only one that matters obviously we're going to plug everything that you guys put out on on various platforms but are you actively going to seek out to do more like interviews and things where you can or do you not think that that is that worth it
00:40:59
Speaker
Yes, I think so. i'm i i have a friend who writes for Scottish magazine. um She's very kindly, she actually suggested to me, which is very kind, don't have to go begging, but she's going to try and do an article for me. She did also this in charge of the monthly roundup books. She said she'll to get me in there and so have I am using contacts that I've made um I think more than I than I was um obviously I have them now so I'm going to try capitalize on as many of those as I can um like you and um like uh like Amy because she's got a YouTube channel that's really good yeah she doesn't know that yet if you're listening Amy he'll be in touch she's like no
00:41:44
Speaker
So, so yeah, I think again, I'm just going to try and grab as much as I can and and utilize my contacts now. that I've made. How about you, Melva? I have, from the most baseline, learned to just ask.
00:41:59
Speaker
Yes. And with, so it's all been an announced now. So with Hachette, which is my new publisher, i was quite straight with them on day one. And I said, listen, like, you know, this isn't my first book. It's still in YA. So it's a different YA publisher. So it's within, if you like the same genre, the same line. And I said, you know,
00:42:17
Speaker
I am happy to hear that is not in your marketing budget. Please just tell me if there's something you cannot do. And I will just ask and don't think I'm going to be heartbroken. I'm just going to ask because don't ask, don't get. So I've been much better at asking. They've been really good at being straight with me about stuff.
00:42:33
Speaker
um Yeah, I'm quite excited to know that, for instance, we're getting proofs, which I know my editor thought quite hard to get, like limited edition proof, limited print proof. I don't know. I don't know what they're called. But um I've not had proof since that light first micro one. So that'd be good because my main marketing strategy and people I've met through publishing, it's definitely get as many copies into as many hands as possible. Yeah, that's it. like that just feels like the the book is completely ah at the time of recording we are 10 months out from publication nine months out and the book is completely finished as of the previous month it has been proof edited copy edited everything so there's no reason it can't start going into hands especially because it is at least one of two and there is going to sequel to this book uh which was in all the um stuff that they released so i really want to make sure the first book does well and i've personally feel like in YA the best way to do that is get it into as many TikToker, Bookstagrammers, BookTok, all that kind of stuff, hands as possible. It doesn't bother me as much going in newspapers or anything like that. I wouldn't say would say no to doing any more podcast stuff because I quite enjoy it but I wouldn't do anything I don't enjoy. Like I wouldn't bother. If I'm not going to enjoy it, I can't be, I'm not doing it.
00:43:49
Speaker
Yeah, I like that. Yeah. Yeah. That makes sense. Yeah. That's the big difference between one of the big difference trad. We talked about this trad and indie publishing indie publishers will like test certain things to see if they actually make a difference. Like you'll do like book four or five podcasts in like the space of two weeks and then you'll be able to look at your data yeah and see if that made an effect. You just don't get that information with the publisher. So with with the traditional publisher, so I guess.
00:44:19
Speaker
It's like, yeah, do the podcast if it's fun. But if it's like, if it's going to be a drag, then yes you know you don't know if it's actually helping you at all. Yeah, write the article if it's something you're really passionate about or it's a publication you're really passionate about, but otherwise probably wouldn't do an article q and a Like I have friends that work in various different journalism positions that I would very happily do an interview with, and even an unpaid interview, that would be fine. But then there are other ones where i'm like, I don't think I want to write 750 words on this, like this aspect of my novel for this magazine I don't know and don't know the editor. I don't think going to that. So yeah, my big focus is on getting as many copies out as soon as possible. I just feel like that's the, ah first of all, like one of the cheapest ways of marketing, because obviously they have the copies there ready to go. i agree. yeah Yeah. And also one of the most effective, I just think people seeing it on their timelines is, especially for YA.
00:45:12
Speaker
it it's It comes down to like people doing it for you because you give them a book, they're going to be like, look what I just got in the post. And they're going to do like a video or or a picture. it feels organic. Yeah, exactly. It's brilliant. Definitely capitalize on Bruce.
00:45:26
Speaker
yeah If you're confident on the quality of the novel, like if you think it' you send it to let's like you need to pick your influencers, I think, or pick up your reviewer. Because like if you send someone something that they're really going to like, and you're confident they're really going to like it, they're going to...
00:45:40
Speaker
sing sing its praises they're going to do a lot more if they read something and they're like it's fine they might do one post if they love it they're going to keep doing posts over and over yeah i agree you need to be smart about it as well but yeah get copies out that's why it's good to to build a yeah just build like build up your network and then not just for the sake of having lots of contacts but for the sake of actually knowing people and the sorts of things that they like and the sorts of things that they're interested in Oh, yeah. That's a mistake I think a lot of authors sometimes make is that it's so easy, especially because to be fair, your publisher says this to you. know Do you know anyone? Make a list. You're asked really early on. I know. Do you know any authors? Do you know any bookstagrammers? Like make a list, give us their username. We can contact them. And I think a lot of people think, oh, yeah, I'll just follow this ah person and I'll retweet one thing and then that means that they owe me a post. It's not that at all, actually. like You just end up friends with people and you find your niche of people, readers and reviewers and writers, and then you end up just promoting each other's stuff and it's natural. You don't want... It doesn't work if you're just like doing it for like to meet an end, like means meet the end. It doesn't, it doesn't work like that. You do end up knowing these people, you know, you might be waiting. I mean, we've been, I've been technically published since 2021. So it's been four years I've been getting to know people and I'm incessant on social media. I'm, and I'm that annoying person that keeps like dropping into their DMs. What's going on? I'm so excited for you. Oh my gosh.
00:47:03
Speaker
So like, that's me. That's what I'm like. So it's fine. You find out the people who are also just like you and you get to know them. So.
Utilizing Author Proofs for Promotion
00:47:10
Speaker
it's a proper relationship as well it's not it's not just so that they feel like they owe you something or it doesn't work no yeah it doesn't doesn't feel great when you get a message out of the blue like haven't spoken to someone like a year and they're like yeah hey how's it going so i've got this new thing any chance we could you know promote that and i'm like what what is this come on yeah it happens doesn't it yeah uh one thing last thing i wanted to touch on actually because you both brought that up the the author proofs i'm sure a lot of people listening uh will have seen it's almost obligatory now when you when your book comes out you get the box and you do the unpacking video how many how many books does it very much how many books do you get when you when you have a debut come out how many do they give you that's set by your contract
00:48:00
Speaker
yeah okay it's different i got i got 20 i think yeah wow like you lose this round i got 20 normal ones and then when i got spreadge um i got the last of the run so they put 600 in a box shoved a bunch out to indie publishers indie indie bookshop sorry and then i got like I would say another 30 in the post because that was what looked was left over from the run.
00:48:29
Speaker
And so I had a lot books. That was every line of view. And that was every line of view. Yeah. For game over goal, I just got, I got like 20 in a box Okay. um Yeah, I didn't, I'm expecting, well they also you get them from foreign editions, right?
00:48:45
Speaker
Yes. Oh my goodness, yeah. I have a couple of foreign editions coming, but I haven't had the books yet because they've not been printed yet. So i had, oh wait, no, that's a lie. I was supposed to get five from Turkey, but I think they sent like eight because I think, I feel like that was like a weight thing. They were like, oh, we've not been over the weight yet. We'll just shove a couple more in.
00:49:02
Speaker
but The problem with the US one as well, actually, you just reminded me, i got 20. Yeah. scholastic US proofs and I got 20 hardback copies of that as well and I can't ship them for love nor money. and really Oh my gosh. Do you want a proof? Would you like a proof? I just, I don't know. I hate looking at them. They take up so much space and like the cover is just ah whatever. And I just, I don't know. I really...
00:49:32
Speaker
I can't, cause I'm not in the U S it's not cheap for me to send them out to U S um influences. And then they delayed the book so much. Um, I was just, i don't know, I've just been trapped with them. So they they're a blessing and a curse quite honestly. it Reminds me of like a bad time. yeah Right. I don't to look at those things. Maybe we should do giveaway. it We do giveaway with all your, all all these books for you. Who wants 10 copies? Um, the same book. Um,
00:50:02
Speaker
the it's it's with the the the The author proofs, I feel like historically they were considered the sort of like family and friends thing. It was like, oh, give it to you. These are for your do you to give to your family and friends. But I feel like nowadays everyone uses them for promotion.
00:50:19
Speaker
Yeah, that's what I do. I make sure if I'm going somewhere particular, I have ah copies in my bag. if I'm going to do an event, yeah, yeah, I do this. if I'm going to like Comic-Con or something, I make sure I've got some free copies. And if I can't give them to like an admired author or whatever that's going, then I will do things like um ah if people are asking questions at panel and you want someone to ask the first question and people are shy, you can offer it as like a prize. Like whoever asked the first question or whoever asked my favorite question gets a book. And it's like a little bit more promotional. And also people who get free stuff from that are off, off will often put it online.
00:50:54
Speaker
Yeah, no, they will. Yeah. And it I give them to libraries and, oh, I do giveaways to schools. Yeah. I just give them lot to schools. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, school library. i just sent one to a school library because they were like promoting the Undying Tower. So I sent them an extra copy that's signed for their library because they're doing like a reading challenge and I want to win the reading challenge and be the most read. So I thought I'd give them an extra copy.
00:51:15
Speaker
So I cheat. That's how I do it. It's not cheating. It's brilliant because you also get rid of copy of your book. and Yeah. but on my
International Publisher Experiences
00:51:24
Speaker
My nephew's school were like doing a book drive and I was like rubbing my think with my hands going, hey, hey. Let's just let me come out in spades for you. And i gave they were like, do you have any foreign editions of your book? And I was like, yes, yes, I do. So they've got like like three Spanish copies, three French copies, three German copies.
00:51:44
Speaker
That's nice though, isn't it? I keep thinking about, so speaking of like just as adding a little thing about marketing and not being a lead title, et cetera. I'm with a German publisher called Magellan um and they have been so supportive of this book. And when I tell you they've offered one of the lowest amounts of money for a foreign edition that I've had and they have done so much for this book and they have done they're doing a sprayed edge so i will hopefully get the sprayed edge edition it was the front cover of their rights guide and went out as a lead title in their rights guide with a 10 page gloss full color spread to explain about the book they're doing tote bags for a certain number of copies bought by booksellers they're doing all this stuff to promote the book and they just really care about the book they email me they message me all the time um about things in the book and ask me questions about a book I wrote two years ago and I have to very quickly remind myself what happened in the book and because they're trying to translate so it the best way they can and I know that Germany is an excellent territory for YA because I know you've ah Naomi you were like on a book list and stuff because they have great schools presence and they're very big on teen reading and my chicken house books are very much teen I would say as opposed to y a like that sort of upper teen level um yeah so
00:52:56
Speaker
do You don't have to always have loads of money to get lots of attention because this is sort of a yeah mid-sized press and I've had a lot of attention. they know They've got some good books on there. You would notice on their website they they've picked up some book deals that are like big deals in their country or indeed English language that are big deals in their country. So I have had actually quite a lot. And my Turkish publisher as well. French publishers, nothing started yet because that's next year. But my Turkish publisher as well sent as must have sent out 200 copies to influencers. It was all over my timeline. That's how found out it come out.
00:53:26
Speaker
Because it popped up on my timeline. I was like, oh, it's out, lol. Because I was thinking, why is it like this? Because I'm terrible. And Turkish and is like a part Cyrillic alphabet. And I was looking at this picture and my first thought like 1am when I saw this and tagging it was, why has AI redrawed my book cover with like strange writing? And I was like, that's not strange writing. that's the Turkish edition um because you don't often hear a lot beforehand so yeah that was the first time I saw it out um so yes my foreign publishers have been most excellent with promoting the book I don't know if that's a country thing as I say Germany very much pushed their literacy programs across schools especially so they're great for children's books I'm not sure but um yeah I've had really really good response and it has not been a whole pile of cash in exchange for that response yeah that's cool
00:54:12
Speaker
Yeah, that's the hope. And it's also, it makes such a difference to you when you feel like it doesn't have to be through marketing, but like when you feel like they believe in the book, it makes such a huge difference. And also, as I say, you know, you've got an editor and they're fighting for the marketing budget too. You might have an editor that absolutely loves your book. It's their favorite book they've ever read. They're going to be fighting in department for you to get that marketing budget or that slot on this thing, especially larger publishers, I'm sure.
00:54:37
Speaker
So if I was a publication and I was approached by 10 publishers and two of them were big five publishers, I would assume all those books are probably going to be quite big. I'm probably going to make room for those books. So I assume they have slots in things and they're going fighting in department for those types of slots. So it's always good have someone like on your team that really loves the book. All editors love the books they pick they've got to spend time on them. But everyone has favorites, don't they?
00:55:02
Speaker
So it's nice when you feel like a favorite. Quick PSA, it was about this time that my microphone cut out. um So the rest of the episode, it's just the wrap up, what we've been up to, but you' that there'll be nothing from me, just Naomi and Melissa. So enjoy.
Current Reads and Recommendations
00:55:19
Speaker
I have been reading Six Wild Crowns by Holly Race. Oh, awesome. I went to launch. She's really cool. we Me, Naomi, no Holly. She's a very good writer. She's moved from YA into the adult space, adult fantasy. It is being described as Six the Musical meets House of the Dragon.
00:55:39
Speaker
yeah It is a fantasy retelling of Henry VIII's Six Wives. And as somebody who did a history degree and specialized in Tudors and wrote my dissertation on Tudors, I am very much enjoying it. And the whole time I was reading a little bit when she was getting ready for her thing, she looked very nervous because she always panics that i for some reason, like might know more than her or something. And I'm like, it's a fantasy retelling. I'm loving it. But she she's always like, oh, no, I worry because I don't know lots about Tudors. like, I don't.
00:56:04
Speaker
I don't own the Tudors. It's not TM right to me. So yes, but I'm really enjoying it. That's really good. um So plug for Holly, Six Wild Crowns. Yes, definitely. um I am struggling to find something to read at the moment, actually. I did just read... Yeah, I did just read... and an AI thriller, um, which was a bit, um,
00:56:32
Speaker
um it was called William by Mason Coyle. And it's about, um, this guy who builds himself a robot called William and, um,
00:56:44
Speaker
it's kind of like a ghost story in the sense that the house is all really electronic and he just destroys William because they fall out. And then suddenly the house is locked down. he can't get through the front door, can't get out the front door. And then he has guests over and slowly one by one, they all start dying. And it's like, William's taken over the house and killing them all. So it was pretty good. It was fun.
00:57:04
Speaker
It was, yeah. But I don't normally, i stayed away from AI as a topic for like a long time because obviously I wrote one. And it just feels like I don't think I'm completely done on it as as ah as a subject for maybe another book. And i don't like consuming things in that area because I don't want to spit someone else's book back out. So um I don't know. So it was a weird one for me. I really enjoyed it. But at the same time, it just made me nervous. Yeah.
00:57:34
Speaker
I think I said something about AI being too real now. So it doesn't really feel like science fiction anymore. ah I think that makes sense for what Melissa is about to say. I was reading they're moving it They want to move it out. Science fiction is a big thing.
00:57:48
Speaker
Oh, like it because i've normalize it have it. Have it as a more contemporary um genre. Well, this that's what William was our conversation in the bookseller. it's it wasn't It was like a a contemporary ghost story almost. It happened to have a robot in it. It was interesting. Yeah, exactly. Because it's not really science fiction if it's all stuff that absolutely can happen. Yeah. And it's happening currently. It's not that far away, is it? Yeah.
00:58:12
Speaker
And then just to capitalise on it all, we're sort of most of the way through season one of Westworld. We're on episode, we just finished episode eight. So we've got nine and ten to go. Oh. um Yeah. Yeah.
00:58:25
Speaker
But it's okay. Like, it's not it's not changing my life. I don't know. Hangs cool. Is shit about to get wild? Okay. it does Yeah, it does get quite wild.
00:58:39
Speaker
Okay. Because me and Ollie are just sat there like, this is slow. Like, Anthony Hopkins is really carrying this. Like, I don't know. I understand what you mean. yeah If you're like binging it. I was a huge, huge fan of the original film. Okay. So I was very excited for it and was willing to just, because there's so many Easter eggs if you're a big fan of the film.
00:58:59
Speaker
So many Easter eggs. And then I think I just ended with um reach out, send us messages, tell us about your experiences in publishing. We'd love to talk about them. We'll do everything completely anonymously and you can find all of our contact details either just by searching us on social media or just in the description for the for the episode. Okay. Then I clearly said something funny because Melissa and Naomi just laughed. um So I'm sorry, I can't remember what it was. But here's some laughing.
00:59:25
Speaker
It's a Halloween special. ah
00:59:36
Speaker
Thanks for putting up with our nonsense for another episode. To stay tuned to everything we're up to, you can follow the podcast on all socials at The Chosen Tropes. Follow Melissa at Meliva, Naomi at Naomi G. Writes, and Jamie at Jamie X. Greenwood.
00:59:49
Speaker
Don't forget to check out Naomi and Melissa's books, as well as the Right and Wrong podcast. Thanks again, and we'll see you on the next trope.