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S3.E10 - New Adult or maybe Crossover
107 Plays6 months ago
On this season finale we are jumping in on the much discussed topics of new adult and crossover, what they mean and where they fit into the publishing spectrum.
- Naomi Gibson, author of Every Line of You, Game Over Girl
- Melissa Welliver, author of The Undying Tower, My Love Life and the Apocalypse, Soulmates and Other Ways to Die
- Jamie Greenwood, creator & host of the Write and Wrong Podcast
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Transcript
Toxic Character Tropes
00:00:00
Speaker
Do you reckon Christian Grey is different characters? Whoa! You had it here first. I'm just finished it. After every episode was like, oh my gosh, I'm so angry at these toxic characters, like she'll have more food in my mouth, press next episode, because I loved it. But obviously I hate it. This is so much fun. Because this is my Malfoy Hermione family. Yes! She shouldn't have done that. I'm trying to make Neville happen. It's too wholesome.
One-Star Book Reviews Game
00:00:33
Speaker
Guess what guys, I have
00:00:36
Speaker
procrastinated from doing real things by looking up one-star reviews for books online. And I've got some great ones here. It can be a new way to start the episodes with a fun thing and see if you guys can guess it. So let me pick one from my list. Here's one. Okay. See if you guys can guess it. An annoying scientist and an ugly tall man fight over who is more depressed. Is it Frankenstein?
00:01:08
Speaker
It is quite depressing. It's like a little horrible one line pitch. Describe it badly.
00:01:17
Speaker
describe it in the worst way possible. Amazing. So what are we talking? We're talking about new adult, I think. I'm not really sure because I don't really know what that is. I've been trying to find out what it is.
Understanding 'New Adult' and 'Crossover' Genres
00:01:31
Speaker
We'll probably dip into crossover during the course of this discussion, which is similar, but maybe different. I've been trying to figure this out.
00:01:41
Speaker
because both of these terms are recently very popular within the industry. And I've had a couple of agents on the Right and Wrong podcast recently. I had Chloe Seager and Megan Carroll, both of whom rep YA. Megan also reps adult. So she kind of is both sides of this specifically. And I asked both of them what new adult is and what crossover is. What does it mean? And both of them said, no one really knows.
00:02:11
Speaker
not what you want to hear from the agents but they did kind of explain you know what they think of it and from what they said what I've pieced together my vague understanding is that
00:02:21
Speaker
Crossover is a book that appeals to the sort of sentiment of YA. So that could be with its voice, with its choice of subject matter, but it also contains adult elements, usually, but not always explicit romance scenes. Not always the spicy stuff, but to be honest, I think usually with crossover it is, that's the thing that makes it
00:02:48
Speaker
um, beyond YA a lot of the time. And then new adult is I think more about the protagonist. So the main character will usually be in the early twenties and it's a sort of, it's a sort of coming of age thing, but in my head that's like a, it's like a coming of age part two thing. Cause in my head coming of age is
00:03:13
Speaker
The like archetype for me is like a younger, like a child to adult, kind of like a child to add a lesson.
Categorization Challenges in Bookstores
00:03:21
Speaker
Like a Bildens Roman. Like a what? Bildens Roman, literary terms. Like Queen's Gambit is a Bildens Roman because it's from when she's a child through to coming of age. Oh, is that what that is? Oh, I'm going to write that down. You talk to someone. Bildens Roman.
00:03:40
Speaker
But that's like a... Does it have to be over like a long period of time? Not necessarily. It's like forward to years and like spiritual education, massive quotations around that. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay. Yeah. Because there's so much fantasy that does like coming of age and they kind of do it through the magic system and the like accepting of the quest and things like that.
00:04:05
Speaker
But yeah, for me, I've always thought of it as like a younger thing. This like this new adult is if you're like coming of age in your 20s is like your second coming of age. It's like you're an adult, but now you need to figure out how you fit into the world as opposed to like you discovering yourself. I guess it's a difficult thing to identify.
00:04:28
Speaker
Yeah, New Adult I think is focused on more specifically the kind of protagonist that age and the kind of experiences of being in your early kind of 20s. And I chatted about this a lot with Megan Carroll. And although there is an association with having spicy scenes in New Adult, and it is very common, but I think that's largely just to do with the age of the characters and the themes of the story. It's not
00:04:56
Speaker
She was adamant that it's not intrinsically tied to the genre. The term has been around for a while. The book talk and the kind of spicy things becoming very popular has made the lines between YA and adult very blurred and to protect sort of younger readers and also define what things are. They've had to like really figure out these categories I think more thoroughly and
00:05:21
Speaker
while Spice is super popular, I think it's more tied to crossover. But with New Adult, you can absolutely do it without Spice. It can just be about the character and the learnings and stuff like that. There's often romance in it, but I think it's
00:05:38
Speaker
The thing that she was adamant about was that it doesn't have to be. We were talking about earlier Melissa, in some ways it's sort of like just a new age bracket, which they've added in. If YA is loosely 13 to 18, then new adult or NA is sort of 19 to 23, 24.
00:05:59
Speaker
Yeah, that makes sense. I think that's absolutely true for the age groups, but I don't think bookshops recognise it. Do you know what I mean? You go into a Waterstones, you find a YA section, but there's no new adult section. I think that's why it's really difficult to pin down what it actually is, because people don't know how to sell it.
00:06:21
Speaker
I think and it's not readily available in like a bookshop and the amount of times I've been in a water stain and I've seen like a spicy new adult book on the YA table because there's no actual place for it in the bookshop. They don't know where to put it because these books are getting teen readers like on TikTok and stuff. So they put them in the YA section because that's probably where like someone that age would go.
00:06:48
Speaker
would look for it. This is the age-old problem, isn't it? It's like, I understand that it's really difficult with genres, and I have so many writing friends that get really frustrated with the constraints of genre and age group.
Navigating Genre Classifications
00:07:01
Speaker
And whether something is a genre or an age group, such as new adult,
00:07:05
Speaker
But I do also understand that bookshops are businesses and they need to sell the thing. And if you go in somewhere huge, like a four story water stones, and you're surrounded by a bajillion books, you need some way of sorting out the books. But you're never going to know what you're looking for. So I agree. I do think they end up miscategorizing things when they're new.
00:07:21
Speaker
because they want to make sure they reach any audience. They can make some money, which I totally get. Yeah. But for, personally, I think in a four story, Waterstones, you've got no excuse not to have a proper new adult section. Very true. Sorry. If it's like a really small one, like, okay, fine. I understand why you might meld categories together, but if it's like a big one, you need your inbox. Yeah. Tell them how to run their business. Yeah.
00:07:46
Speaker
If you can afford to have a floor for board games, you can afford to have a new adult section. A little section for cards and gifts. I mean, for me personally, I think, to be honest, once you're out of the like children's children's bracket, we shouldn't really be... I just don't think it makes sense to have YA as a like, it's not a genre.
00:08:12
Speaker
No, it's not. Just break things up by genre, you know, put everything in. If it's fantasy, put it in fantasy. You can have, get Nando's in for the partnership, do the chilli section, have rate by chillies. Yeah. You know, that's a great way to do it. And scan the QR code for money off your next Nando's order whilst you read your book.
00:08:32
Speaker
Scan your Nando's loyalty card, right? Three books and you get half a chicken. I think a lot of book shops do organize it by genre though. Like you get the sci-fi horror section, you get the crime section or whatever.
00:08:49
Speaker
And I think that's why YA is continually seen as a genre and not a category. Yeah, it's very true. But then it's so confusing because, so the Waterstones by me, they have, I spend most of my time in the fantasy section, like fantasy sci-fi section, which is like lumped in together.
00:09:10
Speaker
Yeah, the ice hockey floor. And sometimes I'll be there and like lots of my friends write YA and I like to like check, you know, if my friends books are on there and stuff like that. And it's like, well, this is fantasy. And I'm like, this should be here.
00:09:30
Speaker
But I have to go to the YA section because they've decided that I guess it's not fantasy enough to be in the fantasy section. Is it written by a woman? Is that the problem? Spicy. Written by any woman other than Robin Hobb doesn't go in the fantasy section.
00:09:49
Speaker
It could be that, but yeah, it's so confusing to me because then I'll read, like at the moment I'm reading Mistborn and the main character is like 16
Coming-of-Age Themes in Literature
00:10:00
Speaker
or something. And I'm like this, okay, so why isn't this YA? Why do you put this in the fantasy section and not the YA? I mean, it should be in the fantasy section, but
00:10:11
Speaker
you know, why wouldn't this also fit in the YA section? Thus why do we have a YA section? I think it's because that was written at a time when there wasn't necessarily a YA category around. And so it's just got shifted into adult and that's where it stayed.
00:10:25
Speaker
Maybe. But historically all fantasy was put into children's. Oh really? Lord of the Rings used to be sold as children's. I read it as a child actually. That's true. Yeah, mistake. That explains a lot.
00:10:42
Speaker
I mean, it's, I wouldn't say it's bad. It's not, there's nothing like too visceral or anything in there. But, um, I mean, the Frodo's like in his thirties, isn't it? Yeah. Yeah. That's so true. Yeah. Their childhood is stretched though, to be fair. Well, I think that probably means he's like in his twenties maybe. Yeah. Well, apparently they're not an adult till they're 35. I remember this.
00:11:05
Speaker
So I'm like, so he's like, he's a young adult. It's fine. He's a new adult, no? He's becoming an adult. He's a new adult. It's a new adult. Northern Rings is a new adult. Yeah, but surely 36, 37 would be a new adult, no?
00:11:18
Speaker
Uh-oh. Uh-oh. 35 is like the 18. It's so weird to me when fantasy systems do this because I'm like, they still have the same amount of years experience in the world. It's like, how are you justifying? We talked about this with vampires. Yeah, that's right. It's 33 by the way. Sorry, I don't want any Lord of the Rings pupils come after me. It's 33 is the adult age of a hobbit.
00:11:47
Speaker
Please take care of me. I'm glad we cleared that up. Let's get onto the tropes. We've loosely defined what new adult is and kind of what crossover is. I think in a very simplistic way to just cover crossover, and this is a very simplified generalization, but crossover a lot of the time is YA with sex scenes. Yep.
00:12:12
Speaker
And that's largely that's the thing that makes it not YA because YA is for a younger demographic and like a YA publisher can't be putting out books with explicit sex scenes in them because they have a brand to stick to. And I guess the duty of care in some ways. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. And this is the whole
00:12:37
Speaker
reason why it's very difficult to break out within like children's writing is because there is a lot of protections to stop younger people being exposed to certain things.
00:12:46
Speaker
Anyway, that was all very serious. Let's talk about tropes.
Exploring 'Beautiful Elite' Trope
00:12:50
Speaker
I'm going to start this one because to be honest, I was lost. I was a bit lost. I don't read much new adult other than if we're going to count like Brandon Sanderson and like fantasy stuff with vaguely correctly aged protagonists. But I think what is interpreted as modern new adult is not really my wheelhouse, but
00:13:15
Speaker
I picked the trope, the beautiful elite, which after some research I did find features heavily within this genre. And this is of course the trope where the rich and powerful and usually very attractive people are viewed through a kind of surreal lens that almost sets them aside from everyone else as almost like deifying them.
00:13:42
Speaker
And the stories are usually about the protagonist getting a look into this sort of, it's almost like portrayed as an other world where the beautiful elite live and exist and kind of interact with each other. So immediate thought was the great Gatsby. It doesn't fall into new adult because I double checked and he is, he turns 30 in the novel. So he's too old, but it's, ew, old as dirt.
00:14:17
Speaker
So it's not New Adult, but it's probably the most archetypal example of this genre. So much of the story is built up around just the mystique of who Gatsby is, how he ended up here, whether he is or not hiding something.
00:14:32
Speaker
And if I remember correctly, a lot of it doesn't, it's been a long time since I read it, but a lot of it doesn't get answered. Like it's a lot of it's left open-ended, which I think is kind of cool. It's like, it maintains the mystique of the beautiful elite as a concept. Conversely, I, he's also a little bit old, 27, but Patrick Bateman in American Psycho. Yeah. Ah, yeah. That's interesting.
00:15:00
Speaker
is like the same trope but from a different perspective which is really cool because obviously in this one he is the beautiful elite but you see everything through his point of view so and you get his inner monologue and then of course
00:15:17
Speaker
As that goes on, you realize that he's not a reliable narrator and you don't know what actually is and isn't real. As you realize, he doesn't know what isn't real. But I think that's a cool flip on the genre. I have a bunch more which didn't make the age bracket of New Adult. Maybe I'll come back to them afterwards, but some of the ones that were New Adult, Salt Burn,
00:15:41
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. Right in the age bracket for new adult. Um, extremely dark and twisty and weird. Uh, but also it, there's definitely like a, I mean the, the,
00:15:58
Speaker
going to lean on some spoilers here, but I'm not going to explicitly say the spoilers. The main character's fascination with the rich family is very much within this genre. He kind of is so obsessed with them because they seem like these creatures which are beyond
00:16:18
Speaker
everyone else, like a cut above everyone else. Had the picture of Dorian Gray, I think does this suitably well enough and it's new adult, at least at some point it's new adult because I forget how old he gets.
00:16:35
Speaker
whilst also looking like he's 21. He looks young, it's fine. I told you, that's the rule. So this doesn't look 30. Yeah, ew. Ew.
New Adult Character Traits
00:16:46
Speaker
That being said, I saw a meme recently of Timothee Chalamet. It was like what people looked like in the 80s versus now. It's like here's two 29-year-olds and it's Timothee Chalamet and George Costanza from Seinfeld.
00:17:02
Speaker
A cruel comparison. That's so mean. Timothy Chalamet doesn't look a day over 21.
00:17:10
Speaker
No, he doesn't. He's lovely. He's playing Paul, isn't he, in June? Paul like 17. Yeah, that's a fella. That's a fella. What do you think about the talent of Mr. Ripley? Do you think that's got the beautiful... Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Because he's sort of like Dicky Greenlee. That might be new, I don't know. Yeah, how old is he? Particularly the movie rendition of it anyway. Yeah, because he's like 22 or something.
00:17:34
Speaker
Yeah. He's just like sort of fresh out of college, isn't he? Yeah. Fresh out of college. So like that is the sweet spot. I think like anything that's centric around a college university or like having just left that is very much the new adult space. So like in both Gossip Girl later seasons and also Fifty Shades of Grey and the Stages leaving university. So therefore feels young adult. I mean, new adult, my God, it does feel young adult though because it's obviously
00:18:03
Speaker
I thought I said that was a brilliant slip. Gossip Girl for sure, I had that written down. The latest season is 100% new adult and it gets a bit, whilst maintaining their watershed spot, it does get a bit spicier as the show goes on. Yeah, definitely. Christian, how old is Christian Grey? I think he's 27.
00:18:26
Speaker
I read the first one and I've watched the first film. I think he's 27. Yeah, he's very rich for 27, but you know, he's one of, not really a self-made billionaire, he's one of those, he was adopted into a millionaire family, so just saying. That is so true, yeah. I never thought about that before. Yeah. Because it's just like Twilight, right? Yeah, it is. Literally he is. That's why he plays a piano and lives in Seattle. She is Bella. Just as clumsy.
00:18:58
Speaker
Here's one I thought of which is like no spicy sex scenes or anything like that, which is like a departure from like the modern perception of it. The devil wears Prada.
00:19:10
Speaker
Oh, okay. Yeah. The types of friendships moving to a new city and she's finding herself in her first job and stuff. Yeah, exactly. And it's beautifully because she's obviously like in awe of all of the like fashion people who've been there forever. And then she learns that a lot of it is just her learning that they are just people too. And he's like, they suck. But darling, everyone wants this. Everyone sucks.
00:19:39
Speaker
Yeah, I was, yeah, you mentioned Cosmic Girl already. I had, and then we touched on it, but vampire stuff, like almost universally vampire stuff. Vampires are almost always portrayed as the beautiful elite, which makes sense because they are old as the dirt itself and thus have amassed obscene generational wealth just by existing, basically. It's a bit logical.
00:20:06
Speaker
Yeah. Beautiful by their nature, yes. Beautiful by nature, yeah. So I mean, obviously the Cullens in Twilight, but also in True Blood. A lot of the vampires live in these like massive stately manners and stuff, and vampire diaries.
00:20:22
Speaker
underworld as well. Oh, underworld. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Where they have this like weird network. Yeah. And in Banjo-Dara's, the brothers live in like a massive old mansion. Yeah, they do. Which is like, and they're like with that uncle Zach, but it's actually like their great, great, great nephew. Yeah, so it's generational.
00:20:42
Speaker
Yeah. Because I mean, if you, if you're a mortal, all you have to do is put money in a bank, right? Just wait a thousand years. Yeah. Even with crappy interest rates, you'll be rich soon. Yeah, exactly. Eventually. Um, well, they could just have bought any piece of land 200 years ago for like any amount of small money. Um, yeah. So that's a, that's a cool, it's a cool, uh, version of the trope because they are beautiful and elite and vampires, which is always fun.
00:21:09
Speaker
I don't know if there's, I mean, you can obviously offend people by doing this trope because some of the more, the other things I had, which aren't new adult, but they do do this trope is crazy rich Asians. That was a fun one. Oh yeah. That was a good movie. I didn't read the book, sorry.
00:21:27
Speaker
Yeah, it was fun. I liked that movie. Revenge, the TV series does this where she infiltrates the beautiful elite, them thinking she's one of them, but she's actually there to sabotage them.
Dark Academia and Its Themes
00:21:40
Speaker
Succession is like a twist on this where it's like the ugly elite, I would say, where they're all horrible people.
00:21:50
Speaker
Um, and then, uh, Downton Abbey, uh, I think it's, it's kind of, kind of this, but like. Oh, that's very true. Yeah. And they are quite young, but I guess because of it being old timey, cause you're like, well, you're like an old hag if you're 26 or something.
00:22:05
Speaker
A lot of them getting married are only in that first series, like 21. They just seem older. Everyone was younger. Yeah, exactly. Everything happened earlier in life, back in those days. Yeah, that's true, yeah. Do you think the Umbrella Academy counts?
00:22:22
Speaker
Yes. I had Umbrella Academy down for your trope. I know, yeah. I'm just thinking they are kind of really generational. And they're all the same age, which is helpful. They're like celebrities. Yeah. Well, they were at one point.
00:22:38
Speaker
It's a cool trope and I think it's so popular now. It has been popular for a few years through Eat the Rich has become super, super popular largely because of the state of the world and politics and things. But I think
00:22:53
Speaker
It's a pretty safe bet that it's going to be popular if you want to write it. I think obviously if you're doing something contemporary with like real people, you do want to take some care to do your research and just make sure you're not sort of making things, especially if it is, like I say, if it's referential towards an establishment or like a group of people that are currently alive and exist.
00:23:17
Speaker
Yeah, be careful. You want to make sure that you are getting things right when you do it. Yeah, I mean, same as anything, if it involves people that historically existed or do currently exist. Yeah, I think it's a super fun trope. And I think it works really well in New Adult because like we discussed, it's the second coming of age. It's the when you're learning actually what the world is really like now that you're out of the kind of bubble of childhood. So
00:23:46
Speaker
getting into the real world and being like, oh, there's like very powerful people that kind of live by their own rules that don't necessarily apply to me is I think fits in really nicely. I agree. I agree. It's not like a controversial trope. It's, um, yeah. Yeah. I can't see it being super toxic unless like you say, you're basing on like a real,
00:24:12
Speaker
elite, rich family, maybe like the roles, but I'm not saying the roles, but if you were, you'd be careful. Yeah, I'd be careful doing something like that. I mean, just be a biographer if you want to do that. There's enough drama in that. Okay, let's go on to, because we already talked about the Umbrella Academy, let's jump on to what Naomi is talking about. What trope did you pick, Naomi?
00:24:41
Speaker
Well, Melova told me what to do to the tweets. I did, yes. Following orders. You love these books though, I know you love them. I do, you're right. So I picked, in other comments, Dark Academia, which I think is, well you already said it, Melova, it's perfect for the new adult genre category because
00:25:00
Speaker
And we've already sort of touched on it, but it usually has like a campus setting. And so, you know, you're going to have people at university or like some kind of training academy kind of thing. So you're getting people who are probably over 18 going into that age group that we talked about earlier, sort of 19 to 24 ish, 2023 ish. And yeah, it's, it's,
00:25:29
Speaker
What was I going to say? So I had a couple of examples, so like a university setting, ninth house, which I'm reading at the moment, so no spoilers, please, halfway through. That's like a university, it's set in Yale, and I think she had to do quite a lot of research
00:25:48
Speaker
for Yale, because she's layered over this sort of magic school vibe over an existing academy, which I think is a really interesting take. It's one of the people who go to Yale, read it and think, nope. But then you've also got things like special academies, like they could be ballet, like in Black Swan or something like that. But then- There was a TV show recently about a ballet academy.
00:26:13
Speaker
and they were murdering each other. I forgot what it was. There was. It does. I love it. Oh, that's a sports romance we should have spoken about. Yes. Yeah, that's true. That's the kind of one I'm into. It's the contrast of like how delicate and beautiful and like... Yeah. ...seemingly competitive.
Diversity in Dark Academia
00:26:32
Speaker
Yeah. And also it's like very damaging for bodies being a ballerina. Yeah. Yeah. So it's like super high, like emotional.
00:26:41
Speaker
But it's like masking it as well, right? You're supposed to look like elegant and perfect, but you're actually in pain. Yeah, it was very good. Tiny, pretty things, I think it was called. Yeah, yeah, yeah, that was it. Oh, okay. So, yeah, so layered over this like scholastic
00:26:57
Speaker
sort of setting, you've got this quest for knowledge probably, or like a truth. So your main character has probably got a burning desire to either prove or disprove something. This leads them on a quest to uncover it in that sort of scholastic setting.
00:27:19
Speaker
And then whilst they're trying to uncover this thing that they've set out to learn, they usually stumble across a secret society, which I think tiptoes nicely into the beautiful elite because it's probably like full of people who are, you know, generational wealth and beautiful and what have you.
00:27:37
Speaker
But that society is probably going to be quite unhinged, or at least like chaotic good. So in Catherine House, which I read a few years ago, the secret society there are like up to no good for the greater good, if you know what I mean. Okay, yeah, yeah, yeah. Chaotic good. Yeah, yeah. So yeah, you've kind of got this sort of
00:28:04
Speaker
It just gives a really nice old age vibe to it. You have secret societies moving through these campuses and stuff. It learns mysterious, take on it all, and just gives it all a really nice air. That's a dark academia vibe for sure. But then also, if your main character
00:28:30
Speaker
is probably going to strike up a relationship with someone at some point, and that relationship can go either one of two ways. It pairs really nicely with other tropes like rivals to lovers, where two academics could fall in love. In a study of drowning,
00:28:48
Speaker
the main character is trying to uphold an old literary master's reputation. At the same time, another academic is actually having a student is trying to ruin it. So it's pretty obvious that those two are like enemies to lovers. They're going to, you know. Yeah. They're going to bow, not they? Agree to disagree. Agree to disagree. Yeah, all that.
00:29:10
Speaker
But then some relationships also devolve into violence and they bring their friends to enemies kind of thing, or lovers to enemies even. And there's a couple of books that have done that that I haven't read. So one of them I think is the V.E. Schwab book. I think it's called, is it called Vicious? I think that does it. Or Vengeance or something?
00:29:34
Speaker
I don't know if either of you have read that one. I've not. And then there's another one called These Violent Delights by Micah Nemareva. Oh, I've seen that cover. They always have really nice covers. I bought it for the cover, yeah. I've only read a couple of chapters, I just couldn't get into it. But yeah, apparently that's about two guys who start off as friends and really they don't end up as friends, I think.
00:30:00
Speaker
But so, yeah, your relationship can kind of kind of go either one or two ways. And it's like the new age, the new adult bracket, like that person discovering themselves and who they are and who their friends are going to be and what kind of things they value in life through this academic setting. And yeah, I have like a problematic point to make about it, which I did come across online on several areas and that it's very white, like dark academia. It's very Eurocentric.
00:30:29
Speaker
That is so true. Which I feel really bad because I never really noticed that before. And then I was reading online this morning and I was like, oh, that's so true. And I've really struggled to think of one that is genuinely diverse. Yeah, they dig into a bit on tiny, pretty things because one of the biggest blocks she's finding going to this ballet academy is she is a woman of colour going to this ballet academy. And she's one of the very few students who are non-white.
00:30:57
Speaker
So they do actually talk about it, which is good.
00:31:00
Speaker
But whatever you think about the show, at least we're talking about it a little bit, which is a beginning, I get it. But yeah, I agree. I think it's one of those things that like, it's good that you've noticed it though. Like when it's pointed out to you, like obviously, it's difficult sometimes, isn't it? So when we read books, it depends how much of a visual reading you are as well. Like I don't even know if I remember what half the characters look like most of the time, I'll admit, but it's always good to have more diversity in stuff. So maybe moving forward, people will be better at having a diverse cast of characters.
00:31:30
Speaker
in those sorts of settings? Well, I hope so, because like, it says so much, doesn't it, that these are regarded as like the, like, so the Ninth House is set at Yale, for example, you know, that's regarded as like the top elite school, and it's just full of white people, like, that's, I don't know, it's kind of bad. Yeah. But it's, a lot of them are also based around
00:31:53
Speaker
the, like the reason that something, someone like Yale or these institutions are, have like the prestige that they have is because they are so old and over time where it would have just been like that. But yeah, you would have, as time goes by, you would think like with the rest of the world, all the cultures is kind of integrates together. So yeah. Yeah.
00:32:16
Speaker
I believe actually that Babel by RF Kwang deals with this issue. Yes. I think that's three students at Oxford, but they don't, they're not white, but I haven't read it because it's really intimidating. Yeah. And she is very, very clever. Yeah. She went to Oxford, right?
00:32:34
Speaker
she did, during the pandemic. So she, I would see her talk about this. And should she, it came from a place of otherness, not only being an American coming to the UK. And then there was COVID, so she couldn't really meet anyone. And then also, R.F. Frank herself is a woman of colour. And you know, Oxford is still quite famously a majority white intake.
00:32:59
Speaker
So yeah, she does cover those topics in it, even though I haven't actually read specifically Babel, but she did talk a little bit about that. It was really interesting, actually, that sort of otherness, which I think does feed into dark academia, actually. So I'd be really interested to pick up more books by authors of colour that have written about that, because I think the otherness feeds into it and the elite thing that Jamie was talking about really well, actually.
00:33:23
Speaker
Yeah, because you're even more on the outside, aren't you? Yeah. Yeah.
Academic Narratives in Fantasy
00:33:26
Speaker
I mean, yeah, I guess anything to do with a prestigious unit or a mixing words together, university or college or unage, as I say.
00:33:39
Speaker
Those institutions are the elite, like they are the definition of the elite, beautiful, who knows, but yeah, it definitely fits into that genre. Also Rebecca Kwan, she said what her new book was about, that's going to be Dark Academia too. Oh yeah, that sounded so cool when you said that. Is it okay?
00:34:02
Speaker
It's like two students going into hell to save their professional so they can get extra credit. I mean, it sounds like comedy as well. It does. Yeah. Sounds so cool. You could just do funny well as well, so that'd be good. I like Dark Academia. There's loads of, and this works in New Adult too, there's lots of
00:34:23
Speaker
fantasy stuff, which is set in universities and colleges, like Lev Grossman's The Magicians, and there's, oh, there was a series I watched where the, there's like werewolves and stuff, have like a secret society within a university and like, it's classic to have like, because a lot of these universities do have these in quotes, secret societies,
00:34:49
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. That you like hear rumors about sort of like the, they're almost like the feeder schools to like the Freemasons and stuff. Yeah. No, I think you're right. Yeah. There's some really famous ones. There's like a really famous one at Oxford and a really famous one at Cambridge. I can't remember the names off the top of my head, but it works really well. It does. Fourth Wing is popular for a reason.
00:35:13
Speaker
And that has a dragon college where you also learn healing magic and like at some point just what appears to be academia magic which seems to be just reading but apparently magic.
00:35:26
Speaker
So, but reading is a magical experience obviously. It's its own magic. Who wants to be a scribe? Come on. At least there's a caveat in there to be like general life lessons as opposed to Harry Potter where it's like, but at what point do they learn any of the like normal stuff we learn at school? They just gloss over that.
00:35:48
Speaker
Yeah, they don't need to read past age 11 reading age. Why would you need to know that? It's absolutely fine. Do you think that's where these things come from? Though I was wondering about this, like it feels like dark academia has come in in recent years alongside this new adult thing.
00:36:01
Speaker
And the age with the type of thing is, it's basically magical boarding school a lot of the time. Like we were discussing where we even when it's contemporary, I read when we were, if we were villains, pardon me, by M.L. Rea, which was all over bookshop like a couple of years ago, a book club. And that is basically a magic school in my head, even though it's completely, it's like a mode of mystery, contemporary type thing. They're not Shakespearey. Because there's just a bunch of drama kids go to Shakespeare College,
00:36:27
Speaker
And they get like cut every year if they're not good enough at Shakespeare, I guess. And they love Shakespeare. Obviously, you literally just said, yeah, these violent delights and all this. It's like they love Shakespeare at these colleges. They love that white boy barge so much at these colleges. And it is very, very popular. But I wonder if it's coming off them.
00:36:46
Speaker
people who grew up with Harry Potter, which of course has fallen in popularity for many different reasons in recent years. Well, you say that, but sales are still up, right? Of course, yeah, it's not exactly being cancelled. But I know that for instance, a lot of zoomers are probably just to bully us millennials alike. We hate Harry Potter, it sucks.
00:37:04
Speaker
And I understand like where they're coming from with certain elements of it. But whatever you think about that, I wonder if it's like a little bit of a snapback of people getting to their 30s, like millennials and going, I want to write a book and I want it to be like that magical experience I had with pretty much the largest book phenomenon of all time when we were children and so they're rewriting it. But it's like, but imagine if I was a little bit older, but not as old as I am because 30 is gross. So I'm going to make them younger. I feel like it's coming from
00:37:30
Speaker
a particular thing from our childhoods. And then we're writing that. Do you know what I mean? But make it edgy and dark. Yeah. So that's really funny you should say, because I just looked up The Atlas Six and the author of that is 35. There you go. Millennials unite.
00:37:52
Speaker
I think human beings are simple and you can really trace the like thought progression. You're not as complicated as we'd like. There's some cool other dark academia things that I was thinking of when you mentioned this, and that was the secret history. Yeah. Another TikTok favorite. Yeah. I mean, that was a, that was like a global favorite before TikTok even existed. Huge. And it's had like a re resurgence. It's just crazy. Yeah.
00:38:21
Speaker
What else have I got here? Cruel Intentions. Oh, do you know, I loved that movie. That was brilliant. It's Dark Academia, but they're a bit young for new adult, I would say. Do you think? That might be crossover. I think they have sex a lot in that. But they're at high school, right? No, that's, oh, no, wait. I think they're high schools. I thought they were all like 18, but
00:38:48
Speaker
18 is that tricky one, isn't it? When we're talking about crossover, new adult. And I was thinking, because in my head, I kept wondering about with like beautiful elite and also actually partially dark academia, because of when they go to the Volturi in twilight, the later twilights go weirdly. Because I think a lot of the time, there's like a marriage as well, that seems to come up. And so they're old enough to maybe get married, but 18 seems a bit young. But also it feels like they hit 18. It's like they're adults now.
00:39:15
Speaker
Fair game. The law says anything goes. Yeah, exactly. So yeah, maybe I think 18 is the tricky one, I think, in terms of salability, you'll be told guys if you're writing books, 18 is tricky. But that cool, cool intentions feels very new adult though. Yeah, that's what I mean. Now that you've mentioned it. But in my head there, I remember them being in high school. That was the whole point. So I guess that probably is crossover.
00:39:44
Speaker
It must be, but the things that they do and the things that they get up to. Yeah. Dark academia also had season four review. Oh yeah, we're teaching. Season four. Season four, also known as book three. Yeah, he's a teacher at a, did they name the university? It's just a university in London.
00:40:10
Speaker
Oh yeah, I feel like it's a made-up one and it's like the University of London as opposed to like UCL or something like that. Yeah, and people identified. He was like, oh yeah, I walk to the university every day and people identified by the streets that he was in where he was walking and they were like, oh, so you do a four to six hour walk every morning. It's always someone like that, isn't there? It's always some pedant who wants everything to be truthful.
00:40:37
Speaker
I said, but look how pretty it is, guys. The location scout was like, guys, but this is such a pretty street. He's like, yeah, but it's miles away. No, rule of call, rule of call, they can have it. I also have dead poet society. I don't know where that one falls though, because they're about 16, obviously, but it's largely also about the teacher. Yeah, it's tricky. That's a hard one to place. Yeah. And it doesn't feel like YA.
00:41:06
Speaker
No, it doesn't. It straddles different... And that's why it didn't do very well and barely anyone's heard of it because... Yes, dead poets what? Straddled genres. That's what we're all told not to do. And then you mentioned it earlier, Naomi, was that... I don't know if this... I guess it is. Dark academia and new adult is the Umbrella Academy.
00:41:29
Speaker
Yeah, I think that's dark academia for sure. I mean, it's kind of a school, isn't it? A school for learning your powers or whatever. This is what I mean, like the schools, they are so wishy-washy. As I say, like even in If We Were Villains, it's just a school system I've never heard of. It's some private university where they dump you every year if you're not good enough at acting.
Unconventional School Settings
00:41:48
Speaker
And they only act Shakespeare. They only read Shakespeare and they're in their fourth year.
00:41:52
Speaker
and it's just it's a madness and i think this is just basically a magic school and i quite you know what in a way i kind of appreciate that i'm like yeah i don't want to just be back at school that would suck like just give me fake school that's absolutely fine you know what it's fine you know what ml rio you do you i actually appreciate that you didn't want to do real school
00:42:13
Speaker
My problem with that is that I vaguely understand the educational system and there is no university or school that would kick you out and then lose subsequent yearly fees from you because it's a lot of money. Yeah, especially in the US, geez.
00:42:36
Speaker
They wouldn't be slowly cutting their revenue every month just because it's like, oh, this person wasn't good enough. They're like, whatever. They're still paying us. No, they were not good enough at Shakespeare. Okay. We can only take the best bards forward to judges houses. So they cannot have the best of the bards.
00:42:55
Speaker
The bard will praise the bard at the shrine of the bard every morning. I pledge allegiance to the bard. Awesome. Was there anything else you had on dark academia that night? No, I don't think so. I think I covered the problematic area already really. Yeah. I think it works well though, like on the whole.
00:43:18
Speaker
The problematic area.
Fated Mates Trope in Literature
00:43:19
Speaker
I love it. There's no specific problematic thing I think with it other than like anything can be written badly or written without care. Dark academia itself I don't think is too blame. All right, Melissa, what did you get? What have you got for us? So I've gone four, which I think comes up
00:43:38
Speaker
quite a lot anyway, and we've definitely spoken about before, but I went for Fated Mates. So even though we spent the entire podcast talking about how you don't have to have romance, I feel like most of them have romance. So I decided to go for Fated Mates. So yeah, I was, it was a difficult one because obviously Fated Mates, we've talked about it before, and it's like quite common in fantasy settings.
00:44:02
Speaker
Um, I think just people like to think that there's a magic spell that will tell them who to go out with and they don't have to do any effort or dating, which sounds like pretty good to be fair. So like, I understand where people are coming from. Um, but I had like so many examples of this that again, with the new adult crossover young adult, which I feel like are just so blurred, the lines are so blurred. Like I was saying earlier.
00:44:24
Speaker
Twilight is one where the lines are so blurred. She starts at 17. That is firmly why a by those later books. She's getting married. She's an adult. She's over 18. She's not going to college because like how boring we want to be vampires. So she's just kind of going off with her very rich vampire boyfriend and like to private islands and stuff. And then obviously a baby is involved.
00:44:47
Speaker
And she's a married woman. So I feel like it's very, it becomes like quite adult quite quickly. And that feels new adult. Another one I was thinking of where they get married. So there's like quite a few where the fated mates I get married. And I feel like that pushes it into the new adult bracket. So one was divine rivals.
00:45:07
Speaker
Yeah, so by Rebecca Ross, so they get married. It's a duology. Sorry spoilers, they get married. But it's like, they're like very together. It's not even like a love triangle or anything. We don't know how I coped. And it's fancy, but it's like,
00:45:24
Speaker
It's like a second world fantasy. There's like a war going on and they are war correspondents, but it's a fantastical war. It's not exactly like super duper magical, but it's definitely still got like elements of fantasy. It's like a different world to ours. And then there are, what are my other examples? I just feel like there's so many, like 50 shades, which is obviously based on Twilight. Also, I think just falls into this fated mate. So they just feel like they're supposed to be together because there was like a particular moment in time.
00:45:54
Speaker
that meant they were supposed to be together. However, I think, I've talked about this before, but in fourth wing, they make it very much part of the plot, which I know is sort of crossover, where the two dresser life, you guys have not looked at fourth wing, it's the dragon college one. So it's called dark academia as well. And essentially, they all get bonded to a dragon. And then of course, two of the dragons are mates,
00:46:17
Speaker
that which are not fated actually they just happen to be like we're the strongest of the species because you know dragons are cool and not like people and because they're like that then their two riders also feel towards each other so there's like literally scenes where the two dragons are bumping uglies and it makes the two characters also want to bump uglies it's like very intense so they're definitely like super fated to be like how are you supposed to be with anyone else can you imagine
00:46:41
Speaker
Can you imagine if your girlfriend is bothered with this dragon, it's like, oh, I'm really sorry, but Zayden's dragon is having sex with my dragon. And now I really want to have sex with Zayden, but it's not, it's not me. It's my dragon. Okay, it's not me thinking.
00:46:56
Speaker
this whole thing. I think it's very fun. It is very fun to read. It's very, very silly. So I feel like fated mates, I think more so than YA. And that's why I pushed it even though technically, it's a little bit crossover. That's why I pushed it up into the NA category. Because I think when it's YA, the fated mates thing feels a little bit too
00:47:20
Speaker
old because they're thinking then about being with somebody forever and getting married maybe and there's not going to be love triangles and there's not going to be any other options it's talking about sort of a long-term thing so this comes up a lot in werewolf fiction all the time where someone has to have a lunar so it's always like the alpha has to have their lunar and the lunar is like the best person to mate with and then obviously in twilight you have jacob
00:47:43
Speaker
and they could imprint on somebody. Let's not talk about imprinting on babies. They can imprint on presenting adults, okay? And they're their fated mates and they're supposed to be together. And that's like explored mostly through an adult character who's in his twenties, who is with somebody that he then, like they talk about the fact that he wants transformed in front of her and scratched up her face really badly. And she's disfigured from having that.
00:48:11
Speaker
Yeah, which let's also not go into representation of disfiguring in Twilight. But if we move swiftly past, that's also a fated mate situation. I think it's quite common in fantasy, especially. I think the problem is with fated mates, how is it supposed to be common in other stuff? Because obviously, there's no magic happening. Yeah, they do do it in 50 shades. It is based on a magical story, though. They very much are like, this was supposed to happen because it's them that she so if she
00:48:39
Speaker
because I haven't seen 50 Shades of Grey. Anastasia goes to visit Christian, this like famous billionaire that went to their college and she's supposed to be interviewing him for the paper. When she gets there it's very obvious she doesn't really know what she's asking or doing because her best friend Kate was supposed to do it but she got flu.
00:48:55
Speaker
So she like steps in and that's how she meets Christian Grey. And it's fate, it's fate you're supposed to meet him that way. Yeah, yeah. So I think like a lot of people see it as like a fated situation. And there's never really, even though they kind of dance around other love interest, there are many other love interests, it's just that. Like it's just those two. I don't think he would accept like anyone else being interested. I can't imagine if you were going out with Anastasia and Christian Grey was circling, oh my god, he'd be dead by morning.
00:49:25
Speaker
Also, obviously, this trope is very good for healthy relationships, where everyone has choice. I think it's difficult because I do think it's obviously can be really toxic. What's interesting is if you read something, it depends how it's done, exactly what Jo was saying before, right? And divine rivals, it's very sweet, the romance. In terms of Nando's chili pepper score,
00:49:51
Speaker
It is like leaven herb. It's like, no, it's not that crazy. It's not that crazy. Like it's a lot of fade to black. Like it maybe goes, if actually, I reckon you could still get away with it in YA. No genitals are discussed, which like is gross. Like that, you know, it's not fourth wing guys. Let's calm down. And there's no swearing or anything. It's very much like, um, fade to black and then also sort of dancing around doing certain things. And it's also not very long either. Whereas in fourth wing, it's like pages and pages and pages of the sex.
00:50:21
Speaker
Whereas in Divine Rivals, it's like a page, and it's after they get married as well. So it's very pure. It's very cute. I can't remember them doing it before they get married, but apologies if you want to correct me, but I'm sure it's after they get married.
00:50:36
Speaker
to do with the where like YA ends and like NA begins. I think there is often a trend with YA. A lot of those stories will end with the romantic partners getting together and like the story kind of wraps up as
Real-World Dynamics in New Adult
00:50:53
Speaker
that wraps up. Whereas I think in NA, a lot of the time that's, that doesn't happen at the end. It'll happen and then you'll get the, you get more of the relationship because that's more fitting for that kind of age. Like people
00:51:06
Speaker
I'm more interested in like, oh, actually I want to see what the relationship is like. It's just the point where they get together. The practicalities of, so like something that pops into my head, were you saying that is like new girl?
00:51:17
Speaker
So a new girl, which I would say is like pretty new adult, it's like people sharing an apartment. And they're, you know, they're a bit older, but that's because damn it, we can't afford to do anything in our early twin season roles. So they are a bit older than they are in Friends where they're like 12. And they're like, oh, I'm so old in the first series. And obviously, you've got Jess and Nick, and they're very much like planted to be together from the very first season.
00:51:41
Speaker
and then of course it keeps getting renewed so they're not allowed to be together. That's the rule, not until the end. Sorry, spoilers. I think that might- They break up, it's fine. They break up. They make up and break up. Yeah, exactly. And it's about them obviously living together because they are roommates and so you get a lot more of
00:51:59
Speaker
that side of it but it's still quite innocent and it still feels like first. It feels a little bit like it's his first love and they're exploring his first proper girlfriend and I know throughout the series they both go out with different people but yeah it feels very much still like a first and it's very clear they're supposed to be together. So while it might not be fated mates in terms of like in a fantasy setting or indeed in a really dramatic setting like in Fifty Shades of Grey or something like that
00:52:25
Speaker
I think they are still obviously to the viewer supposed to be together, which is why I keep breaking them up. Because you as the viewer, it's a fun comedy. There's a huge expectation by the end of it, you know that they are going to be together and they are going to have sorted out their issues. It's fated, but within the constructs of the genre. Right, exactly. The promise to you, the viewer, is that this is going to happen.
00:52:52
Speaker
Yeah, yeah. It's a Ross and Rachel-esque token. Yeah, exactly. Yeah.
00:52:57
Speaker
in like a, I was thinking about Gossip Girl because we, obviously we mentioned it earlier with like the elite, and I guess it was a dark academia, I guess it's doing, but then I was like, Gossip Girl kind of, for Blake Lively's character, Serena, it kind of is fated, but because, and huge spoilers for original source Gossip Girl here, because Dan has literally like orchestrated their entire relationship from episode one. Yeah.
00:53:27
Speaker
So for her, it is entirely fated. It's totally out of her hands. Everything is moving towards her and pushing the two of them together because he's fating it. He's pulling the strings, allegedly. Because he is the gossip girl. But also, to be fair, which might be where he caught the idea, their parents were supposed to be together and then they weren't
00:53:49
Speaker
And so that feels fated as well. Yeah, it's really weird. And then they are together at the end, I think. I think they also get together. And don't they have a child together? Oh my gosh, I'm trying to. It is quite wild. I think they share a half sibling. Oh, it could be wrong, but you know, Gossip Girl, it was like 50 million seasons and a lot happened. But yeah, they are like, it feels fated because of that as well, because the whole thing is that they start going out and then they bump into each other, meet each other's parents. It's like, oh no, it's Rufus and Lily who
00:54:16
Speaker
many moons ago we're in love blah blah blah and then like we're not together um and they're like supposed to be the older version of them right that will we won't lay thing that's so weird yes imagine dating the the daughter of your or the the child of your parent the person your parents dating yeah it's so weird yeah that's what it is yeah yeah
00:54:41
Speaker
because it feels like incest. It's like, is this illegal? Are we related? A beautiful elite saying, yes, yes, it's fine. You're not related enough. We, the Targaryens, don't approve this.
00:55:08
Speaker
Fated mates, great stuff, lots of traps. So many traps, it can be so dangerous. I was aware of this when picking it. I just think it fits very well with the new adult genre. I think it's the specifically a romance trope that fits very well with that genre, which is why I picked it. However, I will, and sometimes it can be quite fun, but I will admit like it's not my favorite and it can be super dangerous and toxic. You've got to be really careful.
00:55:35
Speaker
How do you use it? Most of the fated mates that I've read have been new adult and they have been where the male love interest can turn into some kind of animal. Yeah. It's very popular. So like a bear, a wolf, or like a dragon. You know, dragon romances are such a thing. And it's just, I don't know. They're having a moment. And they all sound really painful. We don't need that.
00:56:04
Speaker
Because of that though, it just borders too much into like bestiality a little bit, and it's just too uncomfortable. Yeah, I think it's the fated mates thing comes from obviously our idea of what we've put on animal kingdom, which is, oh yeah, like when we say, oh, it's two swans, they mate for life and all this. And yeah, that might be vaguely true, but they're not seeing it the way we're seeing it. We're like, oh, amazing. They're married forever and they love each other. Like, no, that's not what's happening.
00:56:33
Speaker
But that's how we've decided to do it in fantasy 4. Yeah. That's how we've projected it. I think it's, I guess there's like a, it's like, um, this, this love, this like intimacy is not like anything beyond. It's like, it's animalistic. It's like primal. It's like in the very core, I guess is the metaphor that they're going for.
00:56:54
Speaker
Yeah, exactly. And like, that does work. That would not work as well. I don't think it does. It's definitely done in YA. But I don't think it works as well. But yeah, these two are definitely going to be together.
00:57:05
Speaker
It's a bit more fun if there's like a little bit more, I think when you're, it's YA and they're teenagers, they're thinking a little bit more, is this right for me? Whereas with N.A. it's more about like being so sure that you'll love them forever and it's like very dramatic, but perhaps quite calming when you're already in a dark academia setting with the beautiful elite bearing down on you that somebody is there to protect you who can also transform into a dragon, so. That's right. Yeah, exactly.
00:57:30
Speaker
A lot of it's just to do with like, oh, well, they can transform into this super powerful thing and fight you if I'm in danger. Yeah, exactly. I think also with like, uh, the world at large has become much more aware of like, um, what is safe and like healthy ways of thinking and things like that. So I do think there's probably in YA more consciousness of like healthy behaviors over toxic behaviors. Yeah.
00:57:56
Speaker
than there was previously, like when Twilight was published. Yeah. Every line of you got a lot of shit for that. Everything doesn't have to be healthy, guys, okay? Just eat an apple if you want to be healthy. Well, that's like so many of these like really toxic ones are wildly popular still.
00:58:18
Speaker
The kissing booth is so toxic. The kissing booth is so...
Popularity of Toxic Tropes
00:58:22
Speaker
Oh gosh, the kissing booth actually makes Euphoria, Jacob Elordi's other YA thing look chill sometimes because the kissing booth is just so wild. But it's portrayed as like romantic, which is the thing that scares me.
00:58:35
Speaker
That's because they put a beautiful face on it. So like Jacob and Lordy, who wouldn't want him? Yeah. Oh my God. Yeah. If it was like genuinely an ugly guy, he wouldn't be considered as romantic. This is like you all over again. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Yeah. It's almost a compliment that he's so obsessed with you because he's so good looking and he's not. And he's charming and he's like, he reads books and he's like, he's like your book boyfriend. He is. Exactly. But he also is a serial killer.
00:59:04
Speaker
You know, some things you can move fast. I can fix him. Awesome.
Book Recommendations and Reading Trends
00:59:14
Speaker
Well, let's round it off with a question we always ask as of like four episodes. Have you guys added anything new to your To Be Read lists this week?
00:59:27
Speaker
Yeah, so I feel like actually I did Melva a disservice. I should have said I added soulmates and other ways to die to my TBR like three weeks ago. I'm so sorry. But I have my cookie. I pre-ordered like a good friend. So it sat on my TBR, so I'm waiting very much to enjoy that.
00:59:49
Speaker
Okay, nice. I already own it. It's on my TBR. Yeah, I think we mentioned it when it came up on the episode, right? Yeah, we've talked enough about this. And that's also fated mates just quickly. But it's not dark academia. Healthy, healthy, healthy YA fated mates. Is it new adult? How old are the characters? Yeah, they're 16.
01:00:13
Speaker
Yeah. So it's not new adult. So it's fine. It's YA. Do you know how I said it doesn't work in YA? My book Soulmates and Other Ways to Die has fated mates that works because I'm hip grip. It works perfectly. You've never seen it works so well. You've got to read it. If you want an example of how to do it. Um, Melissa, have you added anything to your to be read list?
01:00:39
Speaker
Yes, I am trying to think, oh, it's Alice Wynn, that's the author. So we have a book at Book Club, somebody suggested, In Memoriam by Alice Wynn. So that's on my TBR and I am going to actually have to read it. So it doesn't even count as TBR, really. It's downloaded and everything, so it's ready to go. So it's about
01:01:01
Speaker
a it's like set in world war one and it's about um two it's a queer romance male male romance and about how they obviously have to hide that romance and how it like works over the years um and it's like an effort it says on the what's known website
01:01:17
Speaker
an epic tale of both the devastating tragedies of war and the forbidden romance that blooms in its grip. And I'm worried about this because so at book club we're an all-female book club right in a level with everyone and we have read quite a few queer books and I noticed when we picked up this one I was like gosh we read a lot of tragedy queer books and we need to read some happier queer books. Yeah honestly we read Young Mungo
01:01:46
Speaker
And we've read, there's a John Boyne one he did that's very long, that I remember the name of, but yes, that's like, it's very sad. And I was like, gosh, I really hope this maybe has a happy ending in memoriam because we need some quid joy at book club. So if everyone's sat here listening, like, oh, no, Melissa, it's not quid joy.
01:02:07
Speaker
let's just hope and pray because on my TBR I haven't read it yet so fingers crossed it will be yeah it will be a little bit happier although it is so modal one so I don't really know why I'm hoping it's not a happy setting yeah I feel like it's quite a tragic setting um but yeah fingers crossed so yeah In Memoriam by Alice Wynn is on the TBR
01:02:30
Speaker
Okay, nice. I mentioned at the beginning of the episode, I'm currently reading Mistborn. I've almost finished the second book, so only about 300,000 words to go. And whenever I do read, I usually binge fantasy series, and whenever I do them, I feel like I need a palette cleanser, so I'll need to ground myself back in some reality after this Brandon Sanderson Bonanza.
01:02:56
Speaker
I was looking for things to be like, okay, I need something, I need a contemporary, I need something, you know, to change things up. So I thought I would add Zadie Smith's latest book, which came out last year, The Fraud, to my To Be Read list. Ooh, I haven't read that actually.
01:03:14
Speaker
Yeah, I've got most of her books scattered around my flat, but I was like, oh, she's got a new one. Let's grab that. That'll be a great palate cleanser after I'm, after I'm like completely lost in this fantasy million words or whatever it is.
01:03:29
Speaker
Yeah. Awesome. That about wraps it up. And this is the last episode of this season, given that we do 10 episodes a season. So we'll have to think of some new fun format to come back with next season. And yeah, watch the space, I guess.
01:03:47
Speaker
Thanks for putting up with our nonsense for another episode. To stay tuned to everything we're up to, you can follow the podcast on all socials at The Chosen Tropes. Follow Melissa at Melva, Naomi at Naomi G. Wright and Jamie at Jamie X. Greenwood. Don't forget to check out Naomi and Melissa's books, as well as the Right and Wrong podcast. Thanks again, and we'll see you on the next trope.
01:04:08
Speaker
to ask the right mental hub again. We will harness the five minds of the right mental hub.