Become a Creator today!Start creating today - Share your story with the world!
Start for free
00:00:00
00:00:01
S4.E3 - Going on Submission with an Agent
118 Plays1 month ago
In this one we're chatting about what happens between signing with an agent and going out on submission to try and secure a book deal.
- Naomi Gibson, author of Every Line of You, Game Over Girl
- Melissa Welliver, author of The Undying Tower, My Love Life and the Apocalypse, Soulmates and Other Ways to Die
- Jamie Greenwood, creator & host of the Write and Wrong Podcast
Recommended
Transcript
Toxic Characters: Love-Hate Relationship
00:00:00
Speaker
Do you reckon Christian Grey is a different character? Whoa! You had it here first. I actually finished it. After every episode was like, oh my gosh, I'm so angry at these toxic characters. Like, she'll have more food in my mouth, press next episode. Because I loved it, but obviously I hate it. This is so much fun. Because this is my Malfoy Hermione family. Yes! She shouldn't have done that. I'm trying to make Neville happen. It's too wholesome. Sorry.
One-Star Book Reviews: Guessing Game
00:00:29
Speaker
two so like my Let's start with, oh yeah, my one-star review. yeah I picked one's day that wasn't inherently funny, but I thought it would be controversial. So I went with it. Okay. So guess
Hunger Games: Book vs. Movie Discussion
00:00:51
Speaker
the book review based on the one-star review. The movie was way better than the book.
00:00:59
Speaker
wow that could so much to work on Wow. The movie was way better than the book. Is it recent? Like in the last sort of 20 years? Yes. yes so like so I feel like it might be like a YA adaptation. No, no. it's It's going to be like a historical, like a textbook or something. And then they make it into a movie and the movie's better than the book. It's going to be like, is it like a nonfiction thing?
00:01:25
Speaker
No. melissa was Melissa was on the right track. I like what you were thinking, but... I tried, I tried. Immediately.
00:01:35
Speaker
Hunger Games. Yes. No way, really. Yeah. One-star review. The movie was way better than the book, Hunger Games. Yikes. Well, because the book is the book is very, very dark is what I was thinking, which I love. I love that kind of stuff, but there is no light in the book, it feels like. Whereas in the films, you know, it's kind of bleak. I think there's much light in the films, to be honest. But there's more than the book. Like the fact that the alcoholic character is the comic relief really says a lot. ah The like depressed
What Makes a Good Book-to-Movie Adaptation?
00:02:10
Speaker
alcoholic character.
00:02:11
Speaker
There's my five-star review of the film. It's just so fun. Take all your friends. It's the last book though where Prim dies and Candice is like really sad about it for like a long time in the book. I just remember thinking like, get over it. Like I'm bored of reading about it. I was so sad when I finished the book because it was so depressing. I remember telling Ollie and Ollie was like, well, her sister did die. And I'm like, yeah, but you don't have to bore me about it. Ollie is like standing up.
00:02:39
Speaker
and please sisters dead so I've not read the books. The films are pretty good. Yeah. I never read them. Um, just, it passed me by that one and then it, it all like happened already, the movies and stuff. yeah And I find it very difficult to go back to a book if I've already read, or if I've already watched the thing, you know what I mean? I quite enjoy doing that. i did I did watch the first movie and then I went back and read the book and I thought it was pretty accurate actually. staying And do you think the movies were better? Um, better? I don't know. It's quite better stuff. Because there's so much information in the book. Those books are chunky. They are. They're not that. Well, I mean, my scale is warped. Brando Sando. So what we're saying is they're actually good adaptations. Yeah, I think so. They take the best bits. and Yeah. There you go. A rare thing, a good movie adaptation of a book.
Signing with a Literary Agent: Early Hurdles
00:03:39
Speaker
and We won't talk about divergence. um So continuing on with our season of ah writer and publishing tropes, ah which is sort of becoming ah a bit of a, here are some mistakes that we made when we were starting out season. um We've done episode one, writing your first manuscript, episode two, getting an agent.
00:04:03
Speaker
ah in the previous episodes. Now we're going to talk about what happens once you sign with your agent and and and going on submission off the back of that. ah As this season goes on, kind of from this point onwards, I'm going to be taking far more cues from Melissa and Naomi with this um as I'm now in sort of much more uncharted territory. All my information is sort of secondhand from people I've spoken to. um but no I know roughly where what YouTube guys are going to talk about um on this episode, so I thought I'd start things off with
00:04:37
Speaker
The very simple myth that i I think I was guilty of and I think um a lot of people coming into this when they're trying to figure out how this industry works and like what you do as like a writer trying to kind of find your way in is just the very simple thing that ah it's easy to think, you know, submitting querying agents is like a long arduous process.
00:04:58
Speaker
And it's too easy to slip into that mindset of once I get my agent, I'm sorted, which is of course miles away from the truth. Signing with an agent is a is't it's a great achievement and it puts you um in a far stronger position to achieve whatever your publishing goals might be. It also puts you in a much smaller um group than writers as a whole, because I mean, there's probably, it's probably a small percentage of writers that actually have agents and even smaller percentage that have published novels. um But it's, I mean, based on
00:05:35
Speaker
people have spoken to and and you know my experience of the the industry, it's one of the earlier hurdles in what is a very long track. So the first thing on this, um and I know this from speaking to to lots of agents on the Right and Wrong podcast is that um yeah As soon as you sign with your agent, a lot of the time the first thing you'll do is sit down with your agent and have a big editing session for the manuscript. you know Even if an agent absolutely adores your manuscript and they they're like, this is amazing, I'm so excited about this. They're almost always going to want to reshape it into something that probably leans closer to
00:06:17
Speaker
Realistically it's what the market wants you know that's kind of their role is to make the role is to sell. The manuscript said they're gonna say so this is what i think a publisher that we're gonna shake this into a package that a publisher is gonna think this is great and then.
00:06:33
Speaker
that And obviously that depends on genre and a lot of things like that. um And I've had authors on the podcast guys who have worked on edits for their submission for like more than a year with their agent. And I know that's like, that's a long time. That's definitely not commonplace. I think with if an agent picks you up,
00:06:54
Speaker
you're not likely to be doing that long, but it can be like that um before they before you go on submissions to to editors. And
Editorial Role of Literary Agents
00:07:02
Speaker
agents nowadays are more editorial than I think they've ever been in publishing. It's like, it's part of the role now. I think 30 years ago, agents kind of just did the selling thing. um But now they're like half editor, half agent, half therapist.
00:07:21
Speaker
They wear many hats. I think it's kind of expected, isn't it? Yeah. Oh, 100%. I see very little ah agents that aren't editorial these days.
00:07:32
Speaker
Yeah, that's so true. It used to be even like five, s God, how long ago was that query eight years ago? Even like eight years ago when I was querying, it was a thing where you'd look for the editorial agent. So if you felt like a bit of a baby writer, you would lean into that. And maybe if you felt like maybe you'd already had an agent or you're switching agents from a previous book or something like that, or had a break, then you'd be looking for say maybe less editorial agents. But yeah, you're right. I feel like it's just assumed now that there'll be editorial in some way.
00:08:00
Speaker
Yeah, I think it's more likely to sell. Yeah, I think there's also like, they've almost become a new kind of filter within the whole pipeline of things. ah yeah Whereas before the, you know, it kind of takes a lot of work off the publisher and the editor, if the agent has already sort of moved the the manuscript in the direction of, of like, where it probably will end up in the publishing circuit.
00:08:29
Speaker
I know someone that happened to you say they did so much work with their agent that when a publisher took it on, they went straight to like copy edits, basically, because the manuscript was so ready. Wow. Yeah. And it i I think that's going to become more common yeah because, you know, a publisher can just get given a book that's ready to go. That's way more um beneficial for them because they don't have to put any much staff time into it. It saves them money down the road.
00:08:57
Speaker
Yeah. there's like a There's a few paths into being an agent ah in terms of like career progression. The very common path is um you kind of get some experience in the industry and then you get like an agency assistant job and then agency assistant, basically, you work your way up and is eventually start building your own list and become an agent.
00:09:15
Speaker
The other way which I've seen which is very common is um editors are moving over and becoming agents because I think the upside is like the potential upside in terms of earning income is much higher
Personal Experiences with Literary Agents
00:09:28
Speaker
if you can sell lots of books.
00:09:30
Speaker
yeah So if you've got people who were literally editors at big publishers right who are now agents, of course they're going to edit because they they know firsthand better than anyone what yeah how to edit and what publishers are looking for and how publishers will handle those manuscripts. Yeah, for sure.
00:09:52
Speaker
you two have both done this. The the thing is, I wanted is to kind of wrap this up with, ah but it is, like I said, the first hurdle in a track full of many hurdles. um But in terms of first signing with an agent, you do you almost always will do a big edit. I think it's very rare, especially for like a debut author, that you sign with an agent and they say, yeah, this is great, so let's ship it, let's go.
00:10:18
Speaker
um But you two have both been with your agents for a while now. Do you remember what the kind of when you first signed with them, what the first conversations and plans you made with them were back then? Oh, yes. Yes, I did. Do you want to go first, Naomi?
00:10:33
Speaker
Sure. He sounds excited. So Jo rang me. um This is before she signed me. um And she said, I love your book, but I don't like this, this and this in it. What do you think? And at the time, um I was like surprised or shocked because like obviously my book was perfect right? yeah i know I was like oh and she said yeah this character was quite unlikable towards the end and I was like oh really oh um oh and I think she could tell that I was surprised and so she backed off and and then like four or five months later you know I hadn't had any other bites agent wise and she had given me so much tension
00:11:19
Speaker
And by that point, I was slowly losing my mind. I was like, right, okay, so maybe she's right. And it's difficult to get feedback in this industry at that point. And so I actually paid for an editorial report from Cornerstones. And Cornerstones said exactly the same thing as Jo. And I was like, great, I just paid loads of money to do the same thing twice over. But you really don't know sometimes and sometimes you just have to, you have to do that. But, so Cornerstone has told me the same thing, same thing as Joe and I was like, right, okay, so that's, you know, two industry professionals who have taken the time to tell me this. So, okay, fine, I'll edit into the manuscript and I will do what they suggest. Because at that point, you know, I was like,
00:12:09
Speaker
no longer convinced I was going to be the next Harry Potter. I was like, I just want an agent, you know. So um I edited the manuscript for what they suggested, and then I sent it back to Jo. And if I've done this,
00:12:20
Speaker
and And she rang me like, you know, a month or so later because she's very busy. And she said, um, I can tell you worked hard to get it into this place. And she said, how do you feel about working even harder? Because it still needs work. And I was like, at that point, right, I was as practically crying. I was like, thank you for calling me. Yeah, I'll do whatever it takes. Whatever it takes to get it on a shelf, I'll do whatever you think. And she goes, great. Okay. So on that basis, I'm going to sign you.
00:12:49
Speaker
um And we did, and she did, and we launched into an even bigger edit than what she had previously suggested and what corner scenes are suggested. um So yeah, there you go. Wow. Yeah. Also of note, Jo and Amber at Skylark both used to be in editorial before they became agents. Jo is at Simon & Schuster, yeah.
Switching Literary Agents: Challenges and Considerations
00:13:14
Speaker
right melissa you remember as vividly naoing Well, mine was with a different agent at the same agency I'm at now, but Lucy was assisting her and giving her notes weirdly.
00:13:28
Speaker
So for anyone who doesn't know, like I'm with Lucy Irvine at PFD now, but I was with a different agent. She's since um retired from agenting. um So I got my agent, was like sort of slush pile, sort of not, like she sort of, I i pushed her a little bit because it was back when we used to do like pitching on Twitter and stuff and some other people had shown interest. And so she was like, yeah, great. Like let's read it. Now the thing that's a bit different, I think, because I got a very immediate edit letter from my agent.
00:13:58
Speaker
was because I'd kind of been talking to her for a long time before she signed me. ah The story I've been told is I had this mentor, I was really lucky to have a mentor helping me like write my first book and that was Jeanette Winterson and she was reading it and she went to her agency is also PFD and she said she went in to print it off and there was a big printer queue.
00:14:21
Speaker
So they said, come back in a couple of hours. um i Can imagine you imagine going into your agency and just being like, I'm going to put this off. I love her. Anyway, and she went off and then apparently my agent found a few pages on the printer tray and started reading it and was like, Oh, I like this. Now I was already querying other places and I kind of didn't want to query PFD because I don't know why actually I didn't. I was just thinking like, Oh my gosh, I can't just query there. Obviously I can't do that. That's not allowed. I don't have enough credits. So.
00:14:48
Speaker
but she apparently read a bit and then she read the whole thing and she was like I was talking to her for ah a couple of months so it was a bit unusual in a way anyway so I signed with her so she had immediately like loads of notes and she asked me to come down she's come down to London just before I signed I didn't realise that was like yeah we're gonna sign you like because this is before the call I guess this is like you know a million years ago so I actually went to London which is kind of ridiculous now I think about it And in there she gave me loads and loads and loads of notes. She was saying about which character she likes, which character she thought we could work on, blah, blah, blah. And then at the end she said, I was like, okay, so do you want me to do these? And then we'll talk about representation. She was like, no, no, this is me offering you representation. I was really confused, like I didn't understand.
00:15:32
Speaker
And then of course I went to go and have a glass of champagne because I was about to be rich, right? Like obviously it's got to become like a huge megastar. So yeah, we worked on edits. Sorry, this is like going really, really backtracking, but it's because it was very weird, like the time and I have the worst memory at the best of times, to be totally honest. So I've heard all these weird stories about it that I wasn't privy to, like the printer story that I don't even know what happened there.
00:15:52
Speaker
Anyway, so um I edited the book with her, also some other people that I'd queried to give me a bit of feedback and it lined up with what um Tess had said
Journey to a Publishing Deal: Pitfalls and Realities
00:16:02
Speaker
and it was Tess. So we worked on it for a long time. we I signed in July 2017 and we went on submission ah early January 2018 so and in that time when I was doing back and forth notes like it it grew it it shrunk I was changing like yeah we did so many edits because this is back before I used to plot so was was mess so you never I can't believe it
00:16:28
Speaker
i yeah um And yeah, I would get these notes and actually it's so funny going back over them because, yeah you know, like on that Word or whatever Word program you're using and it has like the comments and it says who commented and it it was Lucy commenting on little bits. She was sort of doing a second read of it. um So she has really good notes that Tess hadn't even caught.
00:16:46
Speaker
um yeah And then we went out on submission in 2018. So it was like quite a few months of doing edits, yeah. And also it was my first, but it wasn't the first book I'd finished. I'd done Undanged Tower and sort of queried with that and got nowhere. um And then this was one that I sort of started up as, okay, that was my training book, so not a real book. Okay, it doesn't count, it doesn't count, it's a practice. So I'm going to do another book and it's going to be amazing. And this was the book I wrote. Yeah, so it was quite a lot of editing.
00:17:15
Speaker
yeah So you wrote Undying Tower, queried unsuccessfully to agents, then wrote another book, queried successfully, yeah couldn't sell that book, but then ended up selling Undying Tower. i yeah I love that, I really love that. So when we went out with that book.
00:17:30
Speaker
And um it did, yeah, it did it did not it did not sell um on submission. It was out for nearly a year. And then I was thinking what else to do. I sent Undying Tower and Tess was like, oh, it's not really the same fun middle grade exists. It was like a time travel. like it was ah It was like a portal fantasy time travel magic school, like time thing. And then I was like, here is this really dark book about cheating death and she was like this is like quite different to the other book you sent me and she wasn't too sure and that made me not sure and then I kind of called the bluff and said um maybe we should see other people maybe maybe I would be a better fit with a different agent at the agency and I got a bounce back reply saying she was on holiday for two weeks and panicked because I was like oh god what have I done yeah awful
00:18:17
Speaker
and Anyway, luckily she got back and she was like, yeah, you know what, I actually know someone who really loves your writing and is already at the agency. And she's just literally this week started taking on clients and it's Lucy Irvine. So it was actually like very smooth transition. after Yeah, yeah, so it was absolutely fine. But um yeah, so that book did not sell, no. And then luckily Lucy really loved like Undying Tower and all my other stuff. It's not that Tess didn't love it, it's just it was really different. yeah To be fair it was, it was really different because I because that one had failed quote unquote on querying, I just assumed I'd write something completely opposite to this. yeah you know you did To be fair, it didn't fit at all. She was totally right. and So yes, I've been with Lucy ever since. So
00:19:00
Speaker
And then that's like a whole nother story of submission. But yeah, my first time going on submission and first time signing with an agent, et cetera, lots of editing and the book did not sell. No. isn Did you, and then presumably when you kind of re-signed and were with Lucy, yeah was it another whole, did you sit down with Lucy and did a big rewrite on, on dying tower?
00:19:20
Speaker
Yeah, so what she did was, which like, I can't imagine agents having time to do this now. She read the two manuscripts I had finished. So she read what we'd eventually come up with me and Tess to send out um of what was called the Curiosity Locker. And then she read my YA.
00:19:38
Speaker
which was on dying tower at the time called the eternals and she said ah like listen remember this is this is summer 2018 uh actually by this point it's pretty much 2019 yeah because we spent all of 2018 on submission and then in 2019 i had that little panic where i was like i've got to pitch something new we've got to think about this um So pretty much by summer 2019 was the time we actually sorted it out. I sat down with Lucy and she said, listen, YA is in the toilet right now. Remember that time. Remember that time. and But I really love this book. Like I really love it. So I think we should give it a go. and But I don't want to make you any false promises. You know, agents like to really temper things, don't they? And be really, really cautious. um And she was right to be cautious because, you know, it was a non-traditional deal that that book, and it took a long time.
00:20:26
Speaker
to sell that book. And then there was an
Submitting Manuscripts: Odds and Competition
00:20:28
Speaker
overlap with my other book I've got. It's such a mess. Honestly, when people are like, what's your journey to publication? I'm like, oh, I need four different timelines and I need a graph. Do you have a piece of paper and a pen? It's such a mess. Like, oh my God. It's like, why is there not, and every time something messy happens when you're on submission or you're trying to get an agent, you think, Why do I not just have that straight, linear, easy? I wrote this book, had an idea for it, wrote it in six months. I sold it in two weeks at a pre-empt and I've stayed with that publisher for the latin last 20 years and I've had a great career. And it's just, it's never like that. I just feel like I am the epitome of that story.
00:21:05
Speaker
Well, this, I mean, just to conclude, so to conclude my point, which was that signing with an agent is is really just the beginning. There's a lot more work to do, not just with that agent, but everything that comes after that. um This leads really nicely into um what Naomi wanted to talk about um for this episode. So what was your kind of myth or thing about this one, Naomi?
00:21:28
Speaker
Yeah, so it does actually lead nicely on. Thank you, Jamie. and It's this idea that because you have an agent now, all your manuscripts will sell to a publisher. and So like you were just saying,
00:21:43
Speaker
um getting an agent is demonstrative of ah of an ability if you're going into a traditional model. and And I think it shows that you're writing to like a certain standard, but what comes next is isn't any easier. And I think someone someone said to me once and they keep saying it whenever I see them, and it's really irritating. They're like, Oh, I thought getting an agent was the hard part. And then And it's like, it it's all hard, like there's no easy part. like a it is all ah Getting an agent is is it's a really hard thing to do. But once you have one, it's not necessarily easy street from then on. um And you know, if you think convincing someone to love your work enough to try and sell it is hard, it's even harder to convince someone to love it enough to buy it. So let's say that
00:22:33
Speaker
ah pool of agents in the country, let's just say, um is like 100 people, right? You have 100 people to convince your manuscript is amazing, and one of them agrees. There they're going to take your manuscript, edited probably, to an even smaller pool of people. um Let's say there's 25 editors in the country, and and your agent has to convince one of them that your manuscript is amazing.
00:22:58
Speaker
And just the odds are just so small. yeah And it it's like a dark art trying to match a book to an editor and it doesn't always come off. I have lots of friends whose first books didn't sell and I know people who have had books published um and manuscripts after that didn't sell either.
00:23:16
Speaker
you know It's very, very common and and it's crap because you've worked so hard. You've written a manuscript that you know got you an agent. you're probably You probably edit into it several times by the time it goes on to submission. and The amount of time that you had given this manuscript only for it to fail at the final hurdle is so heartbreaking. and it's just It's even worse because you've got no control over it. You're just sort of sat waiting and watching and there's nothing you can do.
00:23:45
Speaker
Um,
Coping with Rejections in Publishing
00:23:46
Speaker
and unfortunately it's, you know, I hate, I hate saying like it's part of being a writer, rejection is part of being a writer. Um, but if you're going a traditional model, unfortunately it is. Um, and I hope it never happens to you if you're listening, but you should be aware of how common it is. Um, you know, some publishers might put out maybe 10 books a year. They might put out as little as four. Do you know how many manuscripts they get sent?
00:24:13
Speaker
it took to pick from, you know, is so the odds are just stacked against you. They really are. So it's not really winning odds to get a book published. It really is. um So yeah, sorry. It's also the difference between ah submitting to agents, like you say, is a bigger pool than submitting to agencies. But also it's you've got to think how much more competitive it is for the yeah When you're submitting to the editors because you're now submitting and you are essentially competing against all of the other submissions that they have received, which are all well for the most part will be signed off by other agents.
00:24:56
Speaker
And then you're also sometimes you might just get struck out because of the schedule. So if you have like a very specific like sci-fi genre, and they also they they have for the next like two years, placements in the in kind of a similar genre to that, they can't take your book, because it won't be able they won't be able to publish it for like three or four years. Yeah, exactly. it's some of these It could be something as simple as that, like they just don't want to compete with themselves because they have like a a similar genre coming out ah on their list. And it's just, you know, they want to give that book the best chance it can. So it doesn't make any sense to take yours on. And it's not to say that yours is bad ah at all. And it's not to say that it's a badly written book. Sorry, Mel, I'm stepping on you. i'll shut up
00:25:43
Speaker
But it's I've had like i had a really good chat with Phoebe Morgan on Right and Wrong podcast a few weeks ago and she's talking she's been mad at her for a while and she was telling me all about the kind of decisions that go on.
00:25:56
Speaker
in the publisher when they do get a manuscript in and and like the kind of different you have she if she really likes a manuscript she then has to send that to the wider team and and the and the other teams as well so that includes like the marketing team and like the design team and like a whole host of people who then have to sign off on it and it's not yeah like you say it's not necessarily indicative of the quality of the writing or like how good the concept is a lot of it's to do with what's in the zeitgeist, whether mark the marketing team thinks that there's like a commercial drive for this. yes there's so many it's It's more than a lottery because it's like there's so many things that have to be have to line up for this for your book to get signed off. And it's not just whether it's a good book, which is like a heartbreaking reality as a creative to like face.
00:26:48
Speaker
yeah Yeah, because it's you've already got so far. yeah yeah Yeah, it's the Everest Base Camp analogy, isn't it? The thing of like, oh, I've traveled so far and I'm here and I've been left behind a door that's been gate kept. And it's what you were saying as well about like not being able to do anything, you' staring up at this mountain, it's even steeper than everything else. And you think.
00:27:10
Speaker
as I speak to so many people that are like, oh, I've queried for so many years. I know when I get an agent, like just to have my book in front of editors will be such a privilege. And like, it's a great sentiment.
00:27:22
Speaker
It would be better if they bought the book, wouldn't it? And you do very quickly move the goal post for yourself. And you very quickly, yeah, it's just awful. And it
Debut Authors vs. Seasoned Writers: Different Challenges
00:27:32
Speaker
feels worse because you can't do anything yourself. Like at least when you're querying, a lot of people, I speak to do the one in one out thing. So it's like, as soon as I get rejected, I bang off another query. And it's like, yeah, it sucks to be rejected. But I feel like, you know, okay, well, there's another one out there now, like we're going to do about that in universe. And it feels like you can do stuff. And Yeah, there's just nothing you can do in your books on submission, you just have to wait. Yeah, you have to work on something else. yeah Distract yourself.
00:27:59
Speaker
Yeah, sucks. It's hard. It's a tricky old beast. It's all part of the the process. And like we are on episode three of this, like which will be, I can't remember how many episodes, between eight and 10 episodes will be this season to show you how early in the process signing an agent is in terms of publication. yeah and and and And I guess like pursuing a career because it's not just about most people are not doing this to publish one book. You know, a lot of people are in this to be like, I want to make a career out of this. I want to publish multiple books.
00:28:36
Speaker
Right. And you need a publisher. It's so difficult. I always think this, like thinking about a publishing house. And, you know, I was giving the analogy of like, oh yeah, you know, I've been with the same publisher. They've just supported me over the years. And it's difficult because a publishing house obviously is looking at buying your book. And it is really important that they love the book. It's really important because first of all, they have to read it 80 million times. Like no matter how often you've read your favourite book, you've not read it as often as your editor will read your book. like Honestly. And you will have to read your own books. So they have to absolutely love the book.
00:29:07
Speaker
and the book is important find the right audience even people who write you know lots of books they might write books for different audiences like steven king writes like my mum won't read any of the horror books steven king writes so that obviously is a different audience so you have to have different type of person to market that book i totally get that but also you are hopefully looking for a home for your career as an author and that's just so tough because you know it's like a job interview you're kind of putting something across somebody even if they think you're really talented and you probably are if you've got that far and most most writers are really talented there's there's lots that have not got that far and are really talented so i'm sure you have the talent it's just they're looking at it and thinking what's this person like to work with don't know never work with them so they've got a there's so much that they have to think about i think because we hear about like 24 hour preempt nonsense and i just still don't understand how that works
00:29:56
Speaker
It just takes such a long time and people have to be so sure before buying it, but they have to be so sure. And it's just, it's just so crazy. I don't even know how it works. to and we're We're behind the door, if you like, quote unquote, and I don't know how it works. Yeah, me and Natalie are in the room. An editor would like to guest off the podcast. Please apply.
00:30:19
Speaker
it's ah It's just so hard so it's so hard to know because yeah you like you say, it's so many hoops to jump through and you never really know. and When it comes to the difference between an editor and an agent or like the editor representing the publisher,
00:30:34
Speaker
that editor representing a publisher, they are going to be, and don't get me wrong, they're going to be super invested in the book that you have submitted to them. But
Book Deals and Editorial Expectations
00:30:42
Speaker
nowadays, multi-book deals are getting rarer and rarer. More often than not, so publishers are offering one-book deals or um sometimes a two-book deal. it's Now it's like a three-book deal 10 years ago was a far more common thing than it is nowadays. yes yeah But the big difference between an editor and an agent is that an editor is like I said super invested in the book that you've sent them in the book that you're working on an agent. For the most part is going to be invested in an author and their career as an author so it's not just the one book it's all the books it's all the potential books that you could write.
00:31:19
Speaker
Yeah, I think it might be worth saying as well. Sorry to disappoint you all even further, but your agent might not necessarily want to represent whatever you write next. So right you they they do reject books from their authors who they have on their list. A number of reasons.
00:31:42
Speaker
they might think, oh no, I can't sell that. So I can't, I'm just going to reject it. So you might go away. So your first book might fail ah on submission and you go when you write another one, and your agent might not necessarily want to send that out on submission. It's, it's. some Yeah, that's similar to what happened with me with the first agent is I gave her the other thing I have finished because I did not do the sensible thing of starting something new whilst I was on submission. I was on submission for like a year, did nothing new, but had this manuscript I'd written first and centre and she just wasn't about that vibe and was hopeful I would write other stuff and I realised that's not what I wanted to write and it doesn't necessarily mean you always have to move agents by the way that sounds really extreme it's just because I didn't really know what I was doing because I was like super super new I didn't really know what direction I wanted to go into either until really she said can't you write more cutesy things like this and I was like oh no no I don't actually want to do
00:32:33
Speaker
That just sounds really awful. and in and In the nicest possible way, she said it like, honestly, super no beef there. Unfortunately, there's no hot tea. um And then I think, you know, my first book died on submission and then my next one, we worked on it through 2019. And then in 2020, I don't know if anyone remembers, but there was this really big global pandemic.
00:32:54
Speaker
that made everyone leave the office and went from home. yeah and And it was just chaos. So obviously I then did the sensible thing though, cause I was like, well, this is chaos. I've pretty much lost my job. I was kind of freelancing, but um I lost like my IT job in a sense. It wasn't quite that dramatic. My partner was a teacher, so it was like working all day, either remotely or actually going in for, um you know, sometimes they needed staff in for like kids who needed to be at school, et cetera.
00:33:19
Speaker
um So I was just like on my own, really bored, really skinned, obviously couldn't go outside and no one's allowed, like you could go for a half hour walk or whatever. So I
Market Demands and Publishing Influence
00:33:28
Speaker
did work on another book and then that's where it got messy because the Undying Tower ended up going to like this small press but non-traditional deal like no advance etc.
00:33:37
Speaker
But um when they were interested in that, I at the same the same month went out on submission with another book because people had just about got back to at least working from home. yeah Because first off of 2020, it was like people weren't working at all. They were just on furlough. And then they kind of scrambled with Zoom and Zoom went, right, well, we're in control now. We have the monopoly um and sort of made everyone able to work from home. And then so then editors were kind of back open after the summer-ish, ish, ish, I say ish.
00:34:05
Speaker
um And then yeah, by the first book that sold traditionally was kind of my third book, about six months after that in 2021. So it sold to Chicken House. so It's so complicated, this is the problem. And you really want it to be simple, and you really want to find the right home immediately, and you want all your books to match up in a voice. And I think sometimes it's such a higgledy-piggledy line.
00:34:29
Speaker
It can be hard to even... like Looking back, I wish I'd almost kept a diary and could remember better the order of events and how things went down because I don't think any... i It's very really rare that you meet an author that's had a really straight line into it because it's so difficult. And speaking of... I don't know if this is this was self-referential, Melissa, but you the thing that you wanted to talk about Yeah. ah Tell us, what what was what was the thing you talked about when we would we we were we brought up the topic and we usually kind of discuss what we're going to talk about before this? What was the one you picked, Melissa? I picked, ah if my first book doesn't sell, I'm the worst writer in the whole world because yes, it is self-referential. As I said, I didn't work on anything else. Part of that was, you know, hoping that it would sell and and being really anxious and not be able to think of anything. But I'll be totally honest, the other part of it was, look at me, I've got an agent.
00:35:22
Speaker
yeah I must be the best author ever. I don't need to write anything else. This is going to be a 10 book series. This is going to be the next insert whatever you want hit. Like, you
Lessons from First Book Failures
00:35:31
Speaker
know, obviously you've got to be, and I think all authors, don't get me wrong, we're all very anxious, but I think you all, you have to believe when it goes out on submission or you're sending it to query, a small part of you believes that someone else will love it or else why are you sending it out?
00:35:45
Speaker
like a small part of you does believe that even if you don't want to admit it and even if it feels a bit like you know a bit pride talking so yeah so i didn't start anything else and then of course that didn't do well and then i had this difficult thing where i had oh i've got another book finished yes few and it was not again not one of my plotted ones because i didn't plot back then and he started plotting with um love life really i did use plotting to like edit it but I didn't really plot in advance so that was also I knew it was messy and looking back on it like that version I sent her was messy but obviously I sent that and she wasn't super super enthusiastic like when we when I've been signed I don't know if anyone's had this with an agent um
00:36:26
Speaker
she was really gushing over my work. And not I'm not saying that in a way that she was lying or anything. It's not like that. Or, you know, just trying to tempt me over, but of course there is an element of, oh, you know, I'd really love to work on this book. And she really loved it. And I could just tell with the other one, well, she was, um you know, very polite and like gave good feedback, etc. She just clearly didn't love it. And that was like a double gut punch.
00:36:50
Speaker
yeah like This hasn't sold and she doesn't love this random book I wrote two years ago. What? Well, that's the end then. There's nothing else to be done. I guess I give up. yeah So went getting onto obviously another agent that did love the book um gave me like a bit more confidence. And then yes, I absolutely for second round on sub, I was like, fool me once, ah shame on me twice. I'm going to write another book.
00:37:14
Speaker
so I did work on something else and in fact it was that thing of the second round I think I was going out so pessimistically like there's definitely a balance a Goldilocks zone of being hopeful and optimistic without promising yourself anything and I'd gone out on the first round super hopeful and optimistic and not if just optimistic I was like planning what I was going to spend the money on And then second round, obviously, I thought, well, I don't know why we're even bothering to flog this dead horse, but I guess seeing as it's a global pandemic. I know so well with me and making the pandemic all about me. So pathetic. But yeah, you just like you just get into really bad headspace with that, I think. So you it is better to work on something else because and oh also just do stuff outside of writing because writing is not the deal and end all it feels like sometimes.
00:37:57
Speaker
um Yeah, so I definitely felt like because I hadn't sold the first time and then it felt like I wasn't gonna sell the second time really. As I say, it did come out with this small publisher but it wasn't quite what I wanted it to be and then unfortunately that publisher ah folded anyway and it was like digital first type thing but before digital first was really a thing so it wasn't quite quite digital first. And and it just you know just didn't quite work out that way. So when really the third time on Sub, this other book that kind of overlapped ah my submission with the second book, um which ended up being My Love, Life and the Apocalypse. ah Yeah, when that sold, and it sold in about six months, which is pretty average actually from what I see on my submission groups and stuff, I was really shocked.
00:38:41
Speaker
Because I was like, I can't believe someone wants something from me. I need the creator of terrible books, infamous across the land. um Yeah, so I think it's, and then you start to sort of, yeah, balance your emotions a little bit. its It's so tough. You've got to stay optimistic. You've got to believe in yourself or else why are you sending stuff out?
00:38:59
Speaker
But also you can't promise yourself stuff based on things that are not in your control. Like people set these goals and they go, this year my goal is to get an agent and sign a book deal. And I'm like, that is madness. You have no control over either of those things. Like what you do have control over is I will send out 50 queries. yes And if I'm not published in two years, I'm going to self publish my book or something like that. And that is in your control. Exactly.
00:39:23
Speaker
What is not in your control is, yeah, getting the agent, selling the book, like so much timing, et cetera, that we always talk about and look. So
Writing While Awaiting Responses
00:39:31
Speaker
yes, that's not true, basically. It's what I'm trying to say. Just because your first book doesn't sell doesn't mean you're a bad writer at all. And doesn't even mean that book's bad because it's sold later.
00:39:40
Speaker
the very first book I wrote. The other one has not sold, but also we haven't sent it back out because I can now see all the issues with it and it doesn't fit my voice really. So I'm not keen to send it back out or maybe I will one day, but I think it needs an edit. So it's not like that book really failed. It's not like that. And I learned a lot from it, but um it wasn't bad either. It's just not quite right. Does that make sense? Yeah.
00:40:04
Speaker
It brings up an interesting thing as well about um agents and what's the best way to be with an with an agent because obviously of an agent um if an agent signs you, they they love your manuscript, they like it, um and they think they'll sign you because they think that they can sell it.
00:40:23
Speaker
ah But that doesn't mean like you were saying, Melissa, you were like, oh, I've done it. I've signed an agent. I don't need to write anything else now. I'm going to be a star. Yeah. All my eggs in one basket. Why not? Exactly. Because, you know, it would be an agent's dream if everything they signed sold. But that's just not the reality. They're trying to figure out what a publisher is going to buy because publishers don't even really know what they're going to buy. It's one of those situations of I'll know it when I see it.
00:40:51
Speaker
um yeah So the best thing that you can do as an author for your agent is to just always be writing something new and always be giving them, you're essentially giving them ammunition to throw at publishers.
00:41:07
Speaker
yeah And that's how, you know, they that they're making money off selling your writing. So the more you give them, the more chances yeah you give yourself, the more chances you give them. Yeah, which is not, for some reason, just is not obvious. Yeah. I don't know what it is. Like, I guess it also depends how long you've been querying for. So I had not been querying for very long, especially, I mean, don't get me wrong, it it was certainly not easier, but there were less people doing it, it feels like eight years ago. But I was querying for about 18 months before signing, maybe a year, which at the time still felt quite quick, actually.
00:41:43
Speaker
yeah oh you know yeah
Query Process: Mindset and Perseverance
00:41:44
Speaker
I've not i only queried two projects and it's only been like a year. I'm such a great writer. That's why I've been picked up so quickly. Do you remember how many queries you actually sent out out of interest over that 18 month period? Yeah, I was aiming for the 100 rejections thing, but I think because Dystopia was so dead and my first project was Dystopian, I really struggled to find people to send my first project to. And also, I just feel like a manuscript, which lists are better now, people are more specific. They are, yeah, that's so true. There's podcasts about it and stuff, and that's really grown in the last few years. So I don't think I actually, when I say not that many, I think I might have hit about 20 or so on the first book.
00:42:19
Speaker
And I was doing little tricks, which I thought were really smart at the time, which was not smart. I was like, it's not dystopian. This is my sci-fi book. It's so stupid. Don't do that. Anyone listening is querying. Please don't mislabel your book. They'll tell what it is when they read it. They'll know immediately. This is a fantasy book about immortals. Yeah, no, that wasn't working.
00:42:41
Speaker
and Yes, I don't know exactly how many on that one. And then as I say, the second book, it was a bit complicated because I was working with so a new Jeanette from, um I did a ah master's degree. And then basically just asked her, I saw ah ah a book launch party for someone who was on my master's and I'd like launch their book. And I was like, wow, you know, they've launched their book. So I asked her for help.
00:43:00
Speaker
ah there, essentially. I didn't, ah ah that sounds really ridiculous, like I went up to a word, please help me get published. and I asked her if, like, we could chat about my writing because she knew it from when I was on the course and stuff. and So she was just helping me out a little bit, like, with my opening and things like that. um It certainly wasn't an introduction or anything. But I was, with the second book, starting to put it out, like I said, on pitch parties and stuff. So that's when I started discovering different ways to query So I was you know going around and looking for one-to-ones and things like that. yeah so did like ah I did a free one-to-one, that was the day when it used to be free, and at like a writing festival for it. And I did yeah all these pitch thingies and then people would obviously write and you'd send them the query package. So it was a little bit different, but yeah, I don't know. I was aiming for 100 rejections, but I included competitions in that. Yes, that's true as well.
00:43:50
Speaker
Okay.
Publishing Timelines and Success Unpredictability
00:43:51
Speaker
So to conclude, what you're saying is, if your first book doesn't sell, it doesn't mean you're a bad writer. It doesn't mean you suck. Like, I mean, it might mean, no, I'm joking. It definitely doesn't mean you suck. And it also doesn't mean the book sucks. I mean, it might do. I have friends who are like, Oh, the first book I sent on submission will never see the live day actually embarrassed. I ever let anyone read that. Can't believe we got me an agent. Like I do know people that are like that ah internet doesn't mean doesn't mean that either. Yeah. I wonder why.
00:44:19
Speaker
people. So I i think it is so important to be writing something else whilst you're on submission. Yeah, I think a lot of people don't. And I do understand why. And I think it's because you have just achieved this big thing. Like you you probably like you were saying, Melva, you were querying for like 18 months before you got an agent, right? And then you edited your book with them and then it went out on submission.
00:44:40
Speaker
you probably do a break, you know, like at least mentally because and you were probably so highly st strong anxiety wise for 18 months. And that is a problem when you're trying to be creative. And it is such a problem. And I think a lot of writers don't write something when you're on submission. And I think yet if you don't, that's fair because you're probably so wired and you've just achieved this big thing that you've been aiming for for maybe years. And and now your brain's just like, okay, we just need to chill.
00:45:10
Speaker
you know, and that's okay. um But if you can write something else, it's a very savvy thing to do. Yeah, yeah I think that's probably also probably driven by the anxiety as well is there's probably a sort of idea in the in your head where it's like, okay, well, the my agent signed me based off this manuscript and it's going out now I don't want to distract myself. I like I want to keep all focus on this manuscript. So I don't want to write something new. Because what if that you know, throws off the the vibe and I find it hard to get back into this one. I imagine that's probably something that I would think in that situation. Just superstition of, I have to be super focused on this amazing book and put good vibes into the universe that this book's going to sell. Yeah. Instead of actually just getting on with your job, but which is the right one. Yeah. Yeah. Write something new, get your mind off it. Yeah.
Submission Timelines and Industry Statistics
00:46:02
Speaker
Yeah. Quick fire round because Melissa, once again, put a bunch of suggestions on what's happening about this. So we've got, my book will sell in a 24 hour pre-empt or my book will sell in a two week auction. We kind of covered this a bit. yeah um I mean, that's winning the lottery. All of the stuff we talked about before, everything having to line up to sell your book.
00:46:26
Speaker
All of that plus you rolled a 20 on a 20 sided dice and you got all sevens on the slot machine, then your book sells 24 hour plans. So lucky it can happen. Lightning does strike twice in the same place, but my god it's not as common as the like headlines would make you think it is. No, that's so true. They report them because they happen so rarely. It's like a plane crash, you know.
00:46:49
Speaker
like all but it Next one we had was, ah my book will sell six months is the average. I think there is a statistic like that is totally worthless saying like, Oh, the average time is this meaning. ah you because on no It's the number one thing as well that people, when I'm in, so I'm in a couple of like submission, they're called like submission hell groups. For various times I've been on submission over the years. And ah yeah, people are obsessed, and I do get it because I used to be as well, are obsessed with asking, hey guys, it's just like pop in and ask.
00:47:24
Speaker
When did, what day of the week did you get the call? And it'll be like, I got mine on a Wednesday and they'll do a poll. And it'll be mostly Fridays. And I'll be like, that means I might get the call tomorrow, but I'll be disappointed once Friday rolls. And it's just ridiculous because there's no such thing as an average. But you drive yourself nuts. Yeah, exactly. It's not, not a good idea. Cause there is no average. And this is what, these are all the things I think I was saying, like when I was making this list, this is like the order of events. It's like, it's like the seven stages of grief or whatever it's called as you go through. You're like, when it doesn't sell in the first week, you're like, okay, that's fine. 24-hour pre-empt. I mean, you know you don't want too easy a story when you're talking on Oprah, so it's fine. it's fine And then you persuade yourself it might be a two-week auction, and then that passes and you persuade yourself, well, six months is pretty average on my submission group. So actually, I'm totally normal. It'll be at six months. Yeah, it's not good. It's not good for you.
00:48:15
Speaker
Yeah, because you you're talking about an like you're talking about an average which doesn't, like you say, is meaningless because it's not that's not how the system works. It's not like
Balancing Optimism and Realism in Writing
00:48:25
Speaker
there's a time before all the editors are allowed to read the thing. you know the difference between twenty ah Some people are on submission for a year, two years even, before they get signed and find a place. And some people are on for 24 hours and it's like the range there is ridiculous. So any average is meaningless. Yeah.
00:48:43
Speaker
then you just wrote, my book will never sell. Yeah, so like that might be true. Yeah, that's the problem. Yeah, exactly. Like, especially if we're thinking book by book, as we were saying, there's a difference between like book by book and author as a career. Yeah, my book will never sell, um and ne slightly different to any book will never sell because each book is a different proposition. So of course, they're completely different. And it depends, as we said, on timing and have you written something very zeitgeisty and is it landing on the right desk at the right time?
00:49:15
Speaker
So, yeah, it's a difficult one, but I'm also accepting that my book might never sell and that's fine. That's why you work on another one. Yeah. yeah But it's, yeah I think there's, and again, it's like when Naomi was talking about all agent books don't sell, there's a huge difference between um a debut author and, you know, like you two have both published multiple novels at this point and the difference in in certain terms of attitude and stuff towards that is the kind of, you know how this goes and you guys yeah since publishing had ideas and concepts that have been rejected. And so you're kind of just like, nah, now onto the next. Whereas
Professional Mindset in Writing
00:49:52
Speaker
like I get it when you're a debut author and you're so attached to this one thing and you're like, this is it, this is, I've put everything into this. Yeah, no, I felt like that. Yeah. The reality of being, like you say, being a career author is that not everything and until you reach like, you know, unless you're like a Stephen King. Yeah. Not everything you write is going to be published because you're not those books might not sell. If the publisher doesn't think they can sell, you're not a big enough name yeah to sell those books without any kind of beat um like checking over whether whether they think people are actually going to really like this.
00:50:28
Speaker
Yeah, you're only as good as you your last deal, which is the thing in a lot of industries. So I totally get it. Michael Grant always said, I met him at Yalk once and I said about, oh, i'm I'm looking for an agent. And at the time he said, um oh yeah, um they're the worst. I hate my agent. Necessary, necessary evil, but they are the devil.
00:50:48
Speaker
I was like a little baby author. And he said um he just treats writing and he said this a lot online as well, like like a job. So even when he wasn't selling anything, he was sitting down at his desk and doing, you know, nine till 12 and having 12 to one for lunch. And he was doing one till five.
00:51:05
Speaker
and he was treating it like a job because he said he'd done lots of crappy jobs and he would like this to be his job. So he was in
Literary vs. Commercial Fiction: Career Paths
00:51:12
Speaker
a, not fake it till you make it, I think that's a bit of a harsh way to put it, but he was in that mode of, I'm going to do the thing I want to do every day for my life as my job, even when it's not my job.
00:51:21
Speaker
ah like dress for the job you want type scenarios, like work for the job you want. So yeah, it's really important that you treat it then to treat it like a job. It's also understanding that you may have spent eight years writing your first book, yeah and it may be amazing. And one day might come out and be absolutely incredible, but you will not have eight years to write each book unless you're Martha Sousaq who took a 13 year gap between ah the book thief and her bridge of clay, which he talked about when I saw Montor and was quite funny about.
00:51:49
Speaker
because he'd had a child in that time who said, what do you do for a living? And he said a writer and they said, but you're never writing. And they were like, Oh God, it has been 13 years. So yeah,
00:52:03
Speaker
um so yeah so it's really unless you're that and obviously, but again, we keep saying like nobody's really that you usually have to produce a book a year. um If not more than that, depending on how much money you're getting and what kind of career you what you want your career to look like, you might have to produce more than one book a year, depending on genre, depending on if you want to cross over different age boundaries, etc. Yeah, the caveat There is, I think for if you're writing literary fiction, which is almost universally one book deals, because and and the reason for that is less the reason for like other genres.
00:52:37
Speaker
It's more because they are aware that literary fiction often takes a lot longer. The writers are taking maybe three to four years to write each of their books. It's not commercial fiction. Even though it's trade fiction, it's not commercial fiction. No, it's very difficult. And therein lies the difference. And that's not a problem. And these books with incredible prizes and they have some amazing writing in them and you read them and they can inspire other books, even commercial books.
00:53:02
Speaker
And often, you know, people say like the commercial books are basically paying for this literary book because they're not going to have a huge print run, et cetera. Not necessarily. The odd one does break out, like Hilary Mantel's, who first died, like broke out into the commercial sphere. But
Understanding the Business of Publishing
00:53:15
Speaker
no, you're totally right. I think those types of books do take longer to put together. But there's a different type of support there. There's a different type of support. And it's also ah from what I've seen. and I've had a lot of I work a lot with Fourth Estate, which is one of HarperCollins' literary imprints. And the way that those authors, their career is very different, I think, to commercial fiction authors. They do, they often do a lot of speaking roles, um as in like, they'll do presentations and get invited to more summits and things. There's a whole different kind of career trajectory, I think, for that kind of author versus commercial authors.
00:53:53
Speaker
you which is yeah interesting. and you know and that's something I wanted to touch back on, we were talking about being debuts versus being published and the kind of difference that that has on your approach to just being able to be like, they didn't like that, I'll write something new. um But I also wanted to touch on what's with there the kind of double-edged sword of um selling books in both of those situations.
00:54:20
Speaker
Uh, we've mentioned it before, I'm sure many times, it's very hard to sell a book as a debut author because you're totally untested. You're totally unknown. The publisher is going to have to build an entire brand around you. So that's going to require extra marketing because no one's heard of you. Obviously you've never published a novel. Um, I mean, unless you're for some reason a celebrity. Um, but I think there's a sort of, um, double-edged sword also to having been published.
00:54:50
Speaker
um as an author because if you've published and your sales figures aren't great, there's a good chance that when your deal runs out with whatever publisher you're on and you have to go back on submission to find a new publisher, there's a good chance that they have access or can find out this is loosely what your sales figures are and that that can be factored into whether they sign you or not. Yeah it's so true and it's because obviously it's the thing that people don't want to talk about because we are kind of talking about art and I know we were just differentiating sort of like commercial and literary but it's art, it's entertainment
00:55:25
Speaker
And I don't think people, on one hand, people really want to talk about money. They're like, how much money do you make out? You must be rich doing this. does ah And on the other hand, nobody wants to talk about money. And it's really opaque. And it can absolutely affect how much because, you know, in advances, obviously, they're basically placing a bet on how many copies you're going to sell.
00:55:42
Speaker
There's a load of
Digital-First Publishing: Benefits and Trade-offs
00:55:43
Speaker
debate on how they work they this out. None of it seems to be true and all of it seems to be true. It doesn't really matter, but it's something to do with they do want to recoup their investment, of course they do. So if they're looking at your sales figures, and even if it's a completely different type of book,
00:55:57
Speaker
and it hasn't sold that well. And by the way, again, that well, what does that mean? 10,000 copies, 100,000 copies, 100,000 copies. No idea. No idea. No one will tell you. and They will make a decision based on that of how much money to offer you as well. So even if you move somewhere else and they're really keen on your book, they might offer you less. And a lot of established authors, when it was publishing paid, we were talking about that, about how they were paid less money for subsequent books, because it's just assumed, well, you're living off your royalties now and you don't need as much money. And you know that book maybe didn't sell that well, but that one was a huge runaway success. So we'll try it with this one. It's interesting.
00:56:33
Speaker
it also the a lot of I've spoken to a lot of authors who work with digital first publishers. like ah I've worked a lot with Bookature on the Right and Wrong podcast and In terms of like, you were talking about the dream is, oh, i I find a good publisher, we have a good relationship and I stay with them for like decades and that's my writing career. That I'm seeing a lot more with the digital first publishers and it's largely because of the way that the deals are constructed in that you don't, like a book or two, you don't get an advance. It's exclusively on royalties, which means that they can spend
00:57:09
Speaker
them much more willing to invest in you and marketing you yeah because they haven't they haven't done this gamble they haven't done this like upfront cost where they've invested loads in the kind of physical and it's because they're not doing physical print runs obviously there's a lot of logistics and yeah production costs involved thats um lot money but it yeah you don't get that advance but at the same time it means that they can give you so much more attention. They have so many more resources, which would have gone into an advance, which actually just go into you and your marketing campaign. And I've
Sustainability of Writing Careers
00:57:39
Speaker
seen Bookature and other digital first places offering, you know, we were saying how rare it is now to get a three book deal in traditional publishing. I've seen Bookature offering seven book deals. I think they've, they've offered like 10 plus book deals to some of their really successful authors.
00:57:58
Speaker
And like, you know, if you can sign a deal like that That is a level of comfort that you're unlikely to find in traditional publishing now, no matter kind of how many books you've published prior to that. I'll be surprised if you get a seven book deal in traditional publishing. yeah Yes. yeah Because if you're getting those ones, surely it's because you are definitely shifting lots of copies like across the entire board, big five, digital first, et cetera. There are people shifting loads of copies and there are people shifting no copies. So I suppose you would worry at that point, if you signing a seven book deal for a digital first publisher.
00:58:32
Speaker
obviously, one of your worries would be, well, I'm getting no money in my pocket at all. So I've not earned back in advance, I don't think. I don't think I've earned back in advance yet. So I'm not in royalties. So, you know, and thinking about how many books I have sold, which you get given rough figures for, and I'm thinking how much money would have actually made, I don't think actually would have made as much as I've been given. But then as you say, maybe if there'd been more marketing, it's it's ah it's really tricky, isn't it? Because you're trying to guess things that you're not being told.
00:58:59
Speaker
Yeah, but yeah, and it it'll be a very different relationship because the digital first publisher hasn't basically put down a a huge wad of cash to say, we're banking on you. They've basically said, all right, we're in this together. Let's do the best we can. You know, cause they're, they're basically, you know, it's costing them their time that that's the kind of investment they're making ahead of obviously the sales where they're going to take a percentage of the sales. I think if
Emotional Challenges in Publishing
00:59:27
Speaker
you're going to be a career writer,
00:59:29
Speaker
And you have to be aware of the fact that this is your dream, but to the publisher, it's a product. yeah yeah And the two don't necessarily go together. no not A publisher will cut you loose if your book hasn't sold. And that can be really, really soul destroying because that is your dream. That is your baby. You've put so much time and into writing something around your day job probably. um You know, you you might get up early to do it, you might stay up late to do it. You're fitting in all this time in order to make this thing happen for yourself. And it's your dream. And this industry is going to treat you very, very coldly. um Sorry, everybody. You're the Honey Games book versus the Honey Games movie near me. That's you.
01:00:22
Speaker
it's It's just a reality that you need to to get attuned to. It's a business. It's a business yeah and a business and and they, businesses need to make money. um yeah Yeah. I mean, and you see it and you look at like ah ah the the new Mad Max movie came out, Furioso came out recently and a commercial flop, but yeah good reviews across the board. And it's the same as the Blade Runner 2099, which I think is one of the best films. It's one of my favorite films of all time, but it was a, I think commercially it did very badly in the box office. No one went to go and see it. So like if you write a book and it doesn't sell, doesn't mean necessarily the book was bad. yeah It doesn't even necessarily mean it wasn't marketed because we've seen there are, I wouldn't name any, but like there's books that
01:01:11
Speaker
I'm fairly sure have sold not as well as the amount of money that has been put into their marketing budget. Yeah, at least some. Yeah, of course. At least, you know, and it's sometimes ah it's just like you don't know what's people, nobody really knows what's going to sell and what's not, you know. Exactly. And if you're on the outside, I think the hardest thing when you sign with an agent and you tell all your friends and family, agents sound so fancy and special. And you know, immediately your family is just like, oh my gosh, you're going to be the next so and so. We're all going to be going to Barbados for Christmas next year because Melissa is going to be paying for it. It's just, it's just. I think sometimes when they're trying to be helpful, and obviously my family now, I've been doing it long enough that are my friends, I've ah told them of the harsh realities, I've read them the book of The Hunger Games, and they understand um how difficult it is. But yeah, it's really tough because I think once you get the agent, people are just assuming, well, that's a sign that you're going to do really well, right? And if you don't immediately do well, it's very stressful. And then of course, never even mind if you sell and then can't tell anyone for two years, hell. So it looks like you're doing really badly. Oh my gosh, that's like a whole other thing. Yeah.
01:02:17
Speaker
And as well, you've got no control over that either. You just have to sit back and watch. Yep. Yeah. And that's the same as what we're talking about before where it's like, oh, you don't want to start working on a new book as a debut because, you know, it's with an agent, you want to put all your energy on that, but it's like, okay, you sold to a publisher and then they're like, your agent, I'm sure is going to be like, right, start working on something new. This book isn't coming out for a long time. Yeah, you're going to have to do edits, but We've, we can write probably a lot of time you can write like two books if it's like that far in advance. Yeah. Two, three books before your book, your first book even comes out. Oh yeah. i Which I'm very familiar with because the amount of people that I've, authors that I've interviewed about that talking about their latest book on right and wrong podcasts.
01:03:02
Speaker
And they're like, sometimes they're like, oh, sorry, it's weird. I haven't talked about this. I feel like I haven't touched this book in like two years because it's finished and went to print so long ago and it took so long to come out. and but like um I've worked on multiple books since then. Yeah. It's as easy and as hard as writing something else. Yes. Yeah, exactly. Well, this has been a pretty heavy episode for us. What? Let's, let's round it off with, uh, something a little bit lighthearted. Are there any new books or movies or TV shows that you guys have, uh, have seen, uh, that have got you excited? Melva, how about you? so ah it's just switching you You go first. and Um, okay. I'll do, I'll do a couple of things then. I have been watching, um, chaos with Jeff Goldblum. Oh, have you been watching it? Oh yeah. And I described to you guys of the other day as it's Percy Jackson for grownups. It's just like, Yeah. just It's just fun. I love it. and So that's really good. um I can't think of a better pitch than that. So I'm just going to, yeah, watch it. It's really good. And also, um we I just read, I want to say it's called A Better World. It's terrible, right? This is the thing with Kindle. I've said this before. I recently own a Kindle and can't remember who the author is. I can't remember what I'm reading. It's really bad.
01:04:20
Speaker
ah sarah again Yes, that's one. Yeah, so read that for book club. ah Recently, it was like, it was kind of almost like a Stepford Wivesy dystopian. So it's about like a company town that gets created in a very dystopic world where everything's kind of falling apart. um And how gruesome it gets quite gruesome. Actually, it's like, I would say like, it's partly horror. It was quite interesting. I don't want to do like spoilers, but I would say it's partly horror. There's a lot of like creeping horror and some body horror in there and stuff.
01:04:48
Speaker
um But yeah, it's about a family moving to this ah this company town and trying so hard to fit in to the point where it starts to all go a bit crazy. and So that was quite fun. I read that for book club. It was good. Cool. Nice. um Anything new with you Naomi?
01:05:07
Speaker
Yes, I added a book to my wishlist the other day. I think it's due out in October. It's quite a bit to wait. um But it's YA and it's a thriller about two boys, and one of them who is an artist and it sounds like he draws weird creatures um and they come to life.
01:05:30
Speaker
And they're all like sort of in this in this forest and the two boys have to work out a way to keep the creatures in the forest. Wasn't this a movie that like just came out? Yeah, I feel like there's Penny crayon. When I was little Penny crayon, she'd draw stuff and then it would come to life.
01:05:50
Speaker
I've definitely heard the whole drawing thing and it comes to life before, yeah. See guys, nothing's original, it's fine. Refer to previous episodes. Yeah, a movie just came out called Harold and the Purple Crayon, which is very similar. Oh, okay. Yeah, which I think might be also based on a TV show or something. Right, I think. Yeah. Yeah, there you go. I haven't got too much stuff on, I've started, I needed a new something to listen to in the gym, so I've I've only ever read the first Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy book, so I've decided to just audiobook all of them, the whole whole school five out of three trilogy. um What else? Watching Early Murders in the Building, season through four? I think we're on four now, yeah. Yeah, season four. ah Not much else to report. That's all I've got. I guess that's a wrap.
01:06:44
Speaker
Thanks for putting up with our nonsense for another episode. To stay tuned to everything we're up