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S4.E7 - The Second Novel and Post-Publication Blues
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This episode is about that moment when the marketing cycle is over and the dust has started to settle on the publication of your debut novel. What happens next?
- Naomi Gibson, author of Every Line of You, Game Over Girl
- Melissa Welliver, author of The Undying Tower, My Love Life and the Apocalypse, Soulmates and Other Ways to Die
- Jamie Greenwood, creator & host of the Write and Wrong Podcast
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Transcript
Toxic Characters and Fictional Dynamics
00:00:00
Speaker
Do you reckon Christian Grey is different characters? Whoa! You had it here first. I've finished it. After every episode was like, oh my gosh, I'm so angry at these toxic characters. Like, she'll have more food in my mouth, press next episode. Because I loved it, but obviously I hate it. This is so much fun. Because this is my Malfoy Hermione family.
Character Preferences and Challenges
00:00:20
Speaker
Yes! She shouldn't have done that. I'm trying to make Neville happen. It's too wholesome.
00:00:29
Speaker
two da like my one star reviews i'm so about it there funny you can do it melissa's killing you i know you just have ok smell of message me and i look good Okay, so let me tell you I've got I've got but I don't need to do more easy tricky or nearly impossible Oh, can we do easy, please? We'll do easy today. Even the easy ones are hard. I will say some of the nearly impossible ones might, in like a way of you just guessing, be easier. Okay, fine. Fine. If that makes sense.
Literature Guessing Game
00:01:10
Speaker
Yeah, because I think last time I went for a hard one and it was like the Bible or something. Yeah, it was Bible, yeah. Because there's no context, but you could often guess just based on things.
00:01:21
Speaker
Okay. So easy, tricky, and or nearly impossible. Melva, I'll let you decide because you're going to get it anyway. but Let's do a tricky one then that we can like, is guessable. A middly. Okay. Yeah. It's a weak cackle in between. Okay,
00:01:42
Speaker
for boatding um okay here's a good one. ah I have a strong female character shelf here on Goodreads. This book is sorely tempting me to make a weak female character shelf too.
00:01:55
Speaker
but but You've done this one. You've done this one. Did I do that one? Yeah, it's Twilight, isn't it? Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay, great. See, maybe you got one. Because I learned. Scratch that. We'll we'll we'll we'll do another one.
00:02:12
Speaker
These are just great. um Okay, here's one.
Classics Versus Modern Whodunits
00:02:17
Speaker
Uh, I'll give you a clue in advance. It's a, it's a, what would be considered a classic. Um, I couldn't get on with it too slow and doesn't work as a whodunit because now we have DNA evidence. Cannot think why so many people love it.
00:02:35
Speaker
Oh, a classic DNA. have Oh, right. Okay. So they're saying they could have used DNA and that wasn't available at the time. Is that what we're saying? I mean, yeah. It's a very, very famous book. Okay.
00:02:51
Speaker
a Is it an Agatha christ i Christie? book No, it's not. Okay. I was like, assuming like get it steve but that probably would apply to almost all of the Agatha Christie books because now we have DNA evidence. yeah ah so thinking like they need you paro
00:03:16
Speaker
ah Do you have any ideas Naomi? We've got to break it down, right? that the the The answer is in the question.
00:03:26
Speaker
because what What book could be a whodunit? Would you boil it down to its very core, what's a whodunit? Oh, I feel all books.
00:03:37
Speaker
yeah i would ah Here's a clue. There's a lot of sort of court case legal drama stuff involved in it, and it is an old classic.
00:03:50
Speaker
Oh, um, is it Kill the Mockingbird? Yes. lay we got it Yeah, but this person says it's too slow, doesn't work because now we have DNA evidence and he cannot think why so many people love it. It was the book that when you're 14 you're like, yeah I'm reading, uh, to Kill the Mockingbird. Cause you're like trying to be cool. Yeah, I did exactly that. Wait, really? Someone was like, oh, yeah yeah, that was me. Someone was like, oh, you're reading something vaguely literary.
00:04:22
Speaker
Are we all forced to read it at school? I did not read it at school. No, I wasn't. No. He was that in Shakespeare, but I love Shakespeare. The whole of duology of To Kill a Mockingbird in Shakespeare. That's it, yeah. Completed it. Literally. Awesome. Let's get onto the episode.
Publishing Journey Insights
00:04:40
Speaker
So today we are talking about Following up your debut novel, the second book, which many authors consider a uniquely difficult challenge. um First quick recap, just go over quickly. So the past six episodes, we've gone through writing a first manuscript, applying for an agent, getting an agent, going on sub, meeting editors, signing a deal, finalizing a book, publishing the book.
00:05:07
Speaker
releasing the book, and then marketing and promotion. We also did the financial breakdown. um So now this is the sort of, there's that sort of kind of like aftermath-ish. um And then there's a few different ways I think that we could have we could go with this. ah But given both of Melissa and Naomi's experiences, I thought it'd probably be best to do sort of a one of ah one at a time thing.
00:05:32
Speaker
um and break it down into a sort of following publication of a novel. In the case of A, you have a second book already on contract and then B, you were on a one book contract and now you're going to go straight back onto sub. So in that order, we'll start with Naomi, your debut deal with Chicken House was two books. um So I guess the best place to start I guess the best question to to ask is, how far along in the process were you with every line of you when you started writing or thinking about Game Over Girl? I'm going to have to rack my brain there. I love this story because I think I know a little bit about, because you the book you released as your second book wasn't necessarily going to be your second book, right? No, I was just thinking, how do I put that in? Yeah. So ah originally, um
00:06:26
Speaker
I thought every line review was going to be massive and I thought it would change the world and I had to write a sequel. and and I had written a sequel because and I loved the character so much. and i didn't I didn't do that thing where I went away and I wrote a sequel immediately after writing the very first draft of my first book.
00:06:46
Speaker
um I was patient, I waited until I got a publishing deal and then I wrote the sequel. and So I had a sequel ready to go and and we I gave it to my editor, I think after we had pretty much finished with Every Line of View. So I want to say we're probably talking six to nine months before Every Line of View was due to be published.
00:07:09
Speaker
that's probably just like a little ballpark. and okay ah And she read it. She went away to read it. um However, like a month later, I had an idea for another book about a separate completely separate character, different scenario, entirely new book. um Although in my head, it's all set in the same universe. And I was totally clever and pitched the book and was like, look, this could be book three, what do you think? And trying to get um another contract. And my editor thought that idea was great. And she went away and she quickly read my sequel.
00:07:51
Speaker
And then she came back and she said, I think we should do the standalone idea. I think that's stronger. um And I think um at the time I was quite upset because I was like, damn it, this was supposed to be another contract. I was supposed to get three books. And I was telling them to be all clever and work the system, but it didn't quite work. um And I remember speaking to my agent about it and I was like, look, do we say no? Do we do we fight for another contract? What do we do? um And Joe said like, actually,
00:08:19
Speaker
So this is probably the best career advice I've had as an author, and I'll pass it to you now. And and Joe said, look, we don't know how well every line of view is going to do. And it sold to a lot of foreign territories, but we don't know how well it's going to do sales wise in those territories. um So let's say it sold to France, and it actually bombs in France and does not do well. They're not going to want to buy a sequel. They're going to drop you basically. And actually that applies to the home front too. So if, if it doesn't do well here, there's no point writing a sequel to a book that doesn't perform and hasn't sold. Um, because you're just following up an idea that already bombed with another book that will bomb even worse. So Joe said basically for your career.
00:09:08
Speaker
it's better to start off with something else that might do really, really well.
Writing Process and Contractual Challenges
00:09:12
Speaker
um And there's always this chance that um although excuse me although a publisher has taken you on because they really like your first idea there and they just sort of given you a second book to see how you do, there's always this chance that the second book is going to be more successful.
00:09:28
Speaker
and because it might just be like a stronger idea. So Jo was saying, look, we'll do um this standalone idea as as your book too, ah because it's just better for you as ah in your career. um And my editor actually said the same. She said, yes, I think that's probably true.
00:09:43
Speaker
Let's do that. And so that's what ended up happening. So I wrote Game Over Girl. a So I've got a graph here actually of my dates when I was writing. So um to every line of view was due out in the August and I drafted book three. And I finished drafting book three, at book sorry, book two in March of the same year. That was my first draft done.
00:10:10
Speaker
Uh, at the mid-March of the same year that book one was due out. Whoa. Okay. So it's like four months before. Yeah. You must've written it pretty quickly. Um, so sort of, I, I wrote it and I got to like 50,000 words and I didn't think it was working. So I chopped 30 out.
00:10:35
Speaker
And I went back to like 15 and then wrote it again pretty quickly in like three weeks because I knew what had gone wrong and what's supposed to happen where. okay But I think all in it probably took me three months to draft, but I did most of it wrong.
00:10:53
Speaker
that's just felt some people that's like the full process is that I've spoken to a few authors who their process is essentially write it out delete the entire thing write it again delete the whole thing write it again because they're like with every iteration ah all of the important stuff stays but you just trim all of the excess. ah like And each time you're trimming more and more of the excess, and then you get you kind of um really kind of hone it into the crystallized part, which is the most important parts of it. And then you have room to do whatever else you want with the story. Yeah. Yeah. but That's not usual my usual process. It worked for this one, so I'll take it.
00:11:37
Speaker
The second book is the infamous thing. For some reason the authors are always like the second book, so difficult. Did you feel that when you came to writing it? Yes, I did. So I had to submit a synopsis basically of what I thought was going to happen. And my editor went away and took it to the team and they all agreed that was great and I was to go away and write that. um I found that really constraining for me. I don't really like writing to synopses.
00:12:01
Speaker
I don't, I'm not a planner. um I have tried planning books and it's I just find it too creatively stifling. um I love knowing what's not going to happen next. i And when I set out to write, I probably know what's going to happen at the end and I work towards it. and ah But this one, I had like this whole little blueprint and I found that really, really hard for me personally. But I understand that that's probably mostly how books are written if you're in contract.
00:12:28
Speaker
Yeah, to some degree, because then there's, there's a level of his success for an author where you can go off track. And I think the publisher will allow you to, and we're talking about people who are best sellers, you know, very much established with several books yeah out where, yeah, I've had authors on who they're like, yeah, I, I give the publisher a synopsis, but that synopsis is usually barely recognizable by the time the book is finished.
00:12:58
Speaker
her Do you think it was harder than having to write a book under contract with the kind of from the kind of get go you're working with the publisher with the editor? So I'm going to be really honest and say no. um But what I did find hard was the fact that I was working full time was trying to do it. um If I had been if I had been a full time writer, it would have been great. I would have loved it. If I had I didn't have a day job to do. um My day job was quite demanding at the time. Trying to fit it in around working full time was really, really hard.
Publishing Experiences and Strategies
00:13:38
Speaker
So that was mainly where my troubles were. um But actually working under pressure with an editor ah to a deadline I was fine with. Yeah.
00:13:51
Speaker
Yeah. Well, it was Cassia. So you were in good hands. We had a good relationship anyway. um Let's go to Melissa then. Um, because, well, ye you're complicated. Your initial book release with the Undying Tower was like unusual. Uh, and it's probably best. We just go onto my love life in the apocalypse, but yeah, just ditch that.
00:14:19
Speaker
Which, but it came out again guys, it's out, you can get it. Rose and the Ashes, don't worry about it. We move on, we move on. Yeah, I mean if anyone listening wants to hear more about and the Millis' first release of The Undying Tower, she came on the Rotten Wrong podcast around the time that that came out and has been on several times since and I'm sure we've covered it.
00:14:38
Speaker
Yeah, my entire publishing mess is documented on the right run through the years. Um, but safe to say the the publisher slash agency was trying something new. It didn't work out. That's all been sunset from now on. So my love life in the apocalypse, which, um, on a technicality is your debut novel. Uh, it's my first traditional contract.
00:15:04
Speaker
yeah yeah yeah yeah um with Chicken House as well. ah Although you have since published a second novel with Chicken House, Soulmates and Other Ways to Die, um it was a one book contract. with this the The circumstances obviously were different for you and Naomi because um you knew well i you were much more kind of knowledgeable, this was like later on in your kind of involvement with publishing.
00:15:32
Speaker
um But at what point did you, the same question, what point in the process of like writing and publishing My Love, Love, Near Pocket, did you start writing Soulmates and other ways to die? Yeah, so i I always wonder if people, like when they're thinking about the second book, a lot of people if they send out their first book and it fails on sub se and people say, oh, it might not be your first book, but it doesn't mean it won't be your second book. um I think when you get into publishing and you're in like the machine and you are panicked because you only have a one book deal and you need, you really want to get in the publishing like calendar for the following year, and you start to think, oh God, is that
00:16:08
Speaker
it's not necessarily good enough but you've learned some things from doing it the first time around and you've also had an editor like feeding you bits of information and telling you about like you know what's doing well and what they like about your work and oh yeah this this suits really well with your brand let's say you may have written loads of books before and like one's fantasy and one's historical and they're all like completely different so I did write a completely fresh book even though I had other books I'd written um and then ah so I came I was doing book one but one came out in April 2023 and it was around about November 2022 that I was thinking okay well we finished all the edits like it's pretty much finished now it's pretty much in the can um what are we doing about the next book and the publisher said oh do you need to be hasty they they just chill out it's fine
00:16:58
Speaker
like we'll see how this book goes and I was like no no I am hearing from my friends who are on submission ah that already 25 slots are ah sorry 24 slots are completely sealed up and like for instance if you sell something it it feels like I think it was two years between I sold in 21 and it came out 23 now that was during Covid still so it may be a little bit slower but to be honest like other stuff I saw so it is sometimes two years like that's pretty common actually yeah I have had less but It's usually two years. So I was getting a bit stressed about how does that work once you're already in the machine, like how do you get a book for the following year? So I sent them some and pitches in November 22 and they got back and said, yeah, yeah, we quite like this one, but we're going to need to see. I was hoping, I was kind of hoping you hear about these things like selling on a pitch.
00:17:45
Speaker
be so good to sell on a pitch. But no, they did not want to buy on a pitch. Funny how that works. So they said write it. And so I start was when I started doing which I now do every year, my January speed writing project. So I always do NaNoWriMo like does not suit me in November at all. I'm really, really busy in November.
00:18:02
Speaker
It's when a lot of the publishing stuff seems to be like conferences and things I think because publishing starts to wind down a bit towards Christmas and then also it's my birthday and I have Thanksgiving and there's just a lot going on. So I never do very well then but in January I'm like really poor because I've just paid a massive tax bill and everyone's not doing anything and everyone's doing dry January and for January and so I'm just in my house so it's perfect, it's perfect time to do um a writing challenge.
00:18:27
Speaker
So I wrote the first draft of Soulmates off the back of this pitch I'd sent, which was literally like a paragraph, like a blurb. I don't know if I'd written some of the first chapter, I don't think I had though. So I wrote that in the January. So I think I got like, I don't know, like,
00:18:43
Speaker
70,000, I think I was aiming for like 70, 75,000 words. Because I plot so intensely, like it was about that. Sent it to my agent, she was like, yep, this is like you have delivered on the plot that was promised from the pitch. So we sent that in. And then it wasn't too bad turnaround time, actually. So I think I did like a quick polish with Lucy, sent it in in like sometime mid Feb.
00:19:03
Speaker
And then and I think in like, I want to say like March, March to April. So just before the other book came out, um they offered on it and said, yes, we'll take it. And at the time I was wondering, because everyone else I knew, I was one of the only people I knew actually at the time on one book contracts. I feel like it's much more common now. I don't know if it's just in children's or what, but like, so I knew, you near me, we're on a two book contract. And in our group from 2021, a lot of people were on two book contracts.
Financial and Contractual Aspects
00:19:29
Speaker
Yeah. And so 21 was when obviously the Undying Tower, the tower that will never die in real life came out. So we were in the same we're in the same group and a lot of people had two book contracts. So yeah I was thinking, oh, have they just taken it because like, they probably would have taken two anyway. I don't know, in my head, I was like, oh, they probably just said, I did not really think it's because they particularly liked it. And it didn't really make me think of that. But since I know people with one book contracts that haven't necessarily had the second one picked up, so Maybe they did really like it. But yeah, they did. They they took the second one probably Marchish the following year. So it literally they bought it just before um the ah the Mile of Life in the Apocalypse came out, which is lucky because to be fair, I then got how it gets paid out. I got my publishing day
00:20:16
Speaker
part of my advance, pretty much within a week of my signing advance for signing for this evening, which is quite nice, especially right before I decided to put on a big party. So I spent, you know, like, getting down to London and stuff, and I spent like 400 quid on like a party, basically. So I was like, oh my God, this money's coming in because I can't afford it.
00:20:34
Speaker
Um, yeah, so probably, yeah, about March. So I started thinking about it maybe six months before it came out and then they gave me an 11 month schedule for that coming out. So after signing it came out, yeah, 11 or 12 months. Yeah. Cause I think I signed in the April. So it came out 11 months later, March 24, which was really tight. Yeah. But you, you were very, you've been around and in publishing for a while. I'm an old publishing crone.
00:21:02
Speaker
That's correct not what I was going to say. but
00:21:06
Speaker
um Would do you think if if it was your like debut, you just come out, you didn't have the same level of experience that you had. Do you think you would have been so proactive in writing the next novel?
00:21:19
Speaker
o No, I don't think so. And i do you know, actually, the other thing that did really help is talking to people in our group, because because I knew a lot of the wrong two book contracts, and then also I knew how long my contract taken, it was like a series of ah experience and also just talking to people like so important to talk to other people and find out what's going on. Because you know,
00:21:39
Speaker
I was watching ah a program the other day and someone said they wanted to publish a book and they said, right, so I've started writing it. I think we should get it on shelves in the next two months. And of course, their entertainment agent, who's also a literary agent, said, absolutely not completely impossible. It'll take two months to even, like, if you wrote it today, it would take two months to even they get it sent out to all the correct publishers to decide what to do.
00:22:00
Speaker
I know so I think because people don't even realise how long could these things take. Yeah it's so important to talk to other authors and find out oh actually I signed this contract. So a lot of the time when you're in these debut groups and stuff people join up but they've maybe found out like they sold it like a year before they even joined the group and then people are so worried about spilling the beans and saying because it's all really secretive. They weren't even joined like a publishing group they They wait until it's announced and then they join and then they're like, oh, wish I'd joined earlier actually, because I could find out all this information. um yeah Yeah, so it was a couple of different things, but yeah, experience and talking to other people with even more experience. Very helpful in getting my bum in care. I have a question. Yeah. and Because it wasn't a two book deal, it was two one book deals. Yeah. they You got your second book before your first one had come out.
00:22:52
Speaker
Yeah. I think that's quite unusual. I think they must have really loved that second book idea because normally if it's not a TV deal, I think they would have waited for your first one to come out and see how it did. Yeah. Although they did have obviously initial numbers, didn't they at that point? That's true, like buying and stuff. Yeah, they would have had to put buying, selling, I always forget which one it is. But yeah, that one where they know how many bookshops have essentially pre-ordered it.
00:23:19
Speaker
So so do you do my question was, do you do you feel that they treated your second book um like a normal second book in that most publish most publishers don't push this an author's second book they' marketing wise? Or do you think that they gave you more because it was two one book deals?
00:23:37
Speaker
I think it was ah less than the first one. Number one, it was only 11 month lead time, which is great. So I literally handed in basically a first draft and then 11 months later this book's coming out. So it was finished quite close. This is a Melissa first draft though. This is an obsessively planned out first draft.
00:23:58
Speaker
Yeah, that's how they knew I could do 11 months. Well, when they initially bought it, they were talking about um doing later in the year, so they they didn't give me a specific date. And on the Zoom call that, you know, they were just saying about like, oh yeah, it'll be second half, second half of 24. And I was a bit disappointed it wouldn't be the same time during 24, but I was like, oh, I'm lucky to even get in the schedule. And then I was panicking about second half of the year. There's so much, by the way, what I'm going to say does not apply to everyone. Don't panic if your book is coming out this time.
00:24:23
Speaker
But it feels like summer can be a bit of a dead time. September to Christmas is only when the big books come out. So I was like having a bit of a panic about, what do you mean second half of the year? Like, when's it coming out? um And then we had our first editorial Zoom meeting. And during that meeting, they just were talking and they said something, something, something. So obviously, ah when we get to March and it's the launch, and I remember my eyes just went to Lucy's little window in the Zoom call.
00:24:51
Speaker
And I was like, sorry, what? I didn't say anything. And she's just looking at me and she was like, giving me this face off. If she could have like drawn her like, you know, like done like finger to lips to be like, don't say anything, we'll talk about the call. And she goes, I'm just gonna stay on with Melissa for a minute because I think she was hosting it. And they go and and she's like,
00:25:09
Speaker
okay don't panic i'm just gonna ask them what they're talking about um so i don't know if things moved around i don't know if someone missed a deadline and i got moved to fill a slot no idea right but they were definitely saying second half of the year because i had undying tower coming out in originally in the february And so I thought, I'll be fine. And then of course it was like, well, they can't both come out back to back. It's ridiculous. Like it would just be too much. crazy So yeah, yeah, yeah. So we moved on dying tower to fully enough second half of the year. I was so scared about before anyway. And we kept this one in the March slot.
00:25:40
Speaker
So it was all fine. It like worked out fine. And UCLAM were really, really good about it and coming out later. And they were like excited that there'll be like double publicity because I had two books coming out in the same year. So it was all fine. um But it did mean it was a really short turnaround process. And the thing I was worried about was not actually the editing and stuff like that. It was getting it out to like the marketing, as you were saying, Naomi. So like getting it out to people to read in time. getting I didn't have an announcement for and ah for My Love, Life and Apocalypse for some reason.
00:26:08
Speaker
So I really wanted to have one for Soulmates, and I was worried about getting it done in time because it wanted a cover to do the announcement. But how long does the cover take? And Mikayla Arkeina, who does my covers, she always reads the book. So of course, I had to be finished enough for her to read so that she could do the cover, which is unusual. Like they don't usually read the whole book, but she does. And I wanted them to match. So I was like, Oh God. So I don't actually think I did get marketing with the second one. So they didn't feel like it and it felt like shorter time. Not certainly in a bad way because I definitely wanted it out the next year and that was my choice and I was happy when they put it in the next year's schedule. So I'm not necessarily putting it all on the publisher but I think it was the same. I think they were just hoping that because they just put in all this effort for book one and they you know had we had like a party up in Manchester and we invited influencers and stuff. We didn't do that or I did a bit of that but they didn't actually do that for book two. So no I don't think so actually.
00:27:02
Speaker
I think it was treated like a two book contract almost. Yeah. That's a shame. It's like a one and a half book contract. Yeah. Because from just talking to you about it, it did sound like Chicken House was always interested and they did want to hear what you were. And this is something that people probably should be aware of if you don't already know for the majority of book contracts,
00:27:28
Speaker
if it is a one book deal, even I imagine two and two and three book deals, there is a sort of ah built into the contract, there is a sort of first right of refusal for the publishers. So the publisher will want to see whatever you're doing next before you start shipping it out to to other other publishers, hey which is why a lot of the time people have, you know, continue the and have further deals with the same publishers because no one gets to see it before the publisher they're already with.
00:27:54
Speaker
Yeah, although my God, I don't know if this is quite right. I don't think I have a first look clause in my contract. Although it's almost like, it first look is almost like it almost doesn't need to be in the contract. It's just kind of assumed that your current publisher will always get a first look at your next thing. and Like I'm with the publisher at the minute. That's definitely, i I believe it's not in the contract, but they have said as a courtesy, they would like to see anything else I have written.
00:28:22
Speaker
And in a way, I'm kind of okay with that. Yeah, I get it. and I mean, it's tough when you're on an option clause where you can't go out on submission, of course, and they say it'll be two weeks, but it turns up into two months, into six months, and you're waiting, you're like that sucks. It's bad yeah really annoying, but I do understand why they want to look because obviously you don't, I mean, I i have jumped around publishers as well, but and the hope is that you stick with the publisher and kind of grow a brand, right? And they want that too. So it does make sense that they would want to see it first.
00:28:50
Speaker
So yeah, I didn't necessarily, I think had a clause, but I did send it straight to them.
Publishing Options and Control
00:28:55
Speaker
I think it's in your interest as well. If you can stay with the same publisher, because they're the ones who are going to push your backlist. Like yeah if leave somebody else, they're probably not going to be like pushing it that hard. Why would they be as enthusiastic? Yeah. Because they're not going to make money out of it. Yeah. Yeah. Unless they buy the backlist, which does happen. Which does happen. Yes, that's true. Yeah. Complicated.
00:29:20
Speaker
But if they're buying your backlist, then that's a massive deal and there's a lot a lot more moving parts going on there. Yes. And that's when we're talking about, again, multiple books. Like I've always, I don't know if it's true, but I've always heard that it's the race to five books, five still in print books. And that's when you start actually rolling. You might, one of them might earn out, for instance, the one from five years ago, might earn out. Or, you know, you got enough books in the moving in the process that one of them might get a foreign rights deal or whatever it may be. I hear it's five books, but five books is actually, I used to think like, oh, so easy. I read them so quickly. and so arch
00:29:57
Speaker
terrifyingly difficult like once you're in there and you've got to think about the next year and like I don't have a book coming out next year and I'm already like oh okay so there's going to be a gap in the time but then also your time gets booked up so far ahead it just feels bomb because I can't even think what's happening in the next five minutes and suddenly I've got stuff happening in like two years time so. I i actually think it's more than five books now because your advances have lowered so much and you know timescales are just crazy. So I i think it's more like seven or eight, sorry. I reckon actually, yeah. Yeah, honestly, and keeping them in print, like the thing I'm just obsessed with now is how much time's passed between that book publishing. Yeah. And then time is passing. And I'm thinking, is that book selling well enough to stay in print? I know what that number is, by the way, no idea.
00:30:43
Speaker
but i don't want and not to Different methods work for different people, but if we're talking self-publishing, the number is way lower. If you are successfully self-publishing and putting out books, you're generating a lot more revenue per sale. You're effectively working um as if all of them have paid off their advance.
00:31:05
Speaker
yeah so that's true and and this' um And you're not necessarily putting lots of fish hooks in the water hoping for foreign rights deals if you don't have an agent working for you, which some self published people do to get those foreign rights deals, et cetera. You would just be paying say a translator to put it out in a different language. So again, yeah, you're not necessarily looking for that same buildup of books so that you've got lots of opportunities. kind of It feels like buying lottery tickets. It's like, oh, I'm in five syndicates for the lottery. So hopefully one of them will come off. Like it's ridiculous.
00:31:34
Speaker
ah That's exactly how it feels. I interviewed, I'm fine saying this because this is going to come out after that episode. um So it's not going to be revealing anything. But yesterday I interviewed Travis Bultry, which was very exciting. And um ah if you know anything about his kind of publishing journey that he self published first and then was traditionally published, you know, he would have got an incredible deal because he the self-publication was very successful. And then this trade paperbacks came out in the same year. That's how quickly that got turned around. But part of the reason he was saying, because I was saying to him, you know, you did really well self-publishing, you know, and you seem pretty happy with it. Why did you um may have decide to go traditional? And he said, and part of the reason why he was saying this, it's very difficult as a self-published author to get those foreign rights deals and to get the the translations.
00:32:23
Speaker
Um, and he was like, that's, that's one of the biggest things that a traditional publisher like will support your book with it and help you get is the translations and that kind of international presence. I can definitely imagine that.
00:32:36
Speaker
Yeah, which I thought was really interesting. I wanted to go back quickly just in case we tend to talk about a lot of things as if they are common parlance, but they aren't necessarily. Going back to the first right of refusal, the clause in a contract um Do you guys what what are the finer details of that in terms of you were talking about it can be annoying if there's Like ah oh you have to wait X amount of weeks or months to do that. How how does that work?
00:33:08
Speaker
and I'd have to go through like specific contracts so I will not say necessarily what's mine so I was ah some agencies don't necessarily if they're large enough because publishers do not like doing this are able to get rid of the first look clause from your contract so now what that basically means is when you finish another book your publisher that published the first book gets to look at your next book before anyone else. That does not mean you have to sign with them. Like if they look at it and don't offer maybe enough money or whatever it may be, or maybe you weren't happy with how it was going with the first book or anything like that, you don't have to go with them, but you do have to give them the
00:33:47
Speaker
option to offer first. So it's a really strange one because before I was published, I thought it was a really good thing to have a first look. And I remember when I was in like debut groups, people would say, they come on and go like, and they've got a first option on my next one. And it would be this really exciting thing. And I thought, I can't really think now logically why I thought it was so great, but I thought it was like the best thing ever. I was like, oh, that's great because I'll obviously buy the next one. But in reality, and this has not happened to me, but I've heard it happening to ah several other authors.
00:34:17
Speaker
and sometimes a publisher is so busy and they don't necessarily prioritise your next book over the billions of submissions they're getting in from agents etc and looking for the next big thing. It'll say on your contract like oh you get two weeks to decide on this and technically the end of two weeks if they haven't replied then they're out and you could go on submission but also publishing is small and you don't want to piss anyone off and people are busy and sometimes two weeks isn't very good timescale and maybe they'll tell you that when if they send in and they'll say we maybe need a month or two months and then they'll keep putting you off and in the end they might even offer but they might not and there's all this like politics and it feels like a bit of a dance with the option clause stuff um now yeah as i said i i think i don't have them in some of my contracts but i could be wrong on that i'd have to go through the whole contract let's be honest i'm just signing stuff without really exciting
00:35:10
Speaker
So I can't remember. I literally have the prospect open and I cannot i cannot find where it is. What do you think Naomi? I think you're right. I think that they can be a real pain in the ass. Personally, i I think what you said before about how it's polite to give your current publisher first look anyway. I think that's probably what you would do as a courtesy anyway.
00:35:36
Speaker
But to have it actually in the contract um can be quite ah burdening, I think. um It just it traps you a little bit. It has happened to me where I did have a first look contract, first look clause, and you know they took, I think, three or four months.
00:35:55
Speaker
Um, and that is infuriating because you're just waiting for one person. Um, and whereas you could be waiting three or four months for like 15 people, you know, it's, it's just, and then you've got, and then when that one person says no, you then have to wait another three or four months, maybe six months plus for the rest of the publishers to decide if they want it to.
00:36:18
Speaker
And it's just yeah just really elongate um time between books and it's just crazy. Yeah. So fully in agreement. Yeah. Yeah. I guess contractually, if it is just like one or two weeks, and I understand what you're saying about it is a small industry and you don't want to annoy people.
00:36:39
Speaker
Yeah. Equally, the the publisher doesn't really have a leg to stand on if after two weeks they haven't gone back to you and you've said, that's fine. We are sending it to other people. Like obviously you still have it. You can still, you know, we asked, I'm seeing other people now. Yeah. So Joe actually did do that for me. Um, went with my first look option. We sent them my manuscript and we said, you've got two weeks and otherwise we're sending out to everybody else. They did not reply within two weeks. We sent it out to everybody else. And however,
00:37:09
Speaker
they still didn't reply for three or four months. you know it's it You've got no control over it. The threat of two weeks means nothing to these people. It doesn't. That's the problem. it's You are just dancing between, oh, I don't want to annoy anyone, but also why do they not care about annoying me? you um It's on their schedule. It really is. And that's yeah why it's so infuriating. Yeah, it's very difficult. It's one of those out of your hands things that Look, option clauses would work really well and would be brilliant if they always got back in two weeks and they pretty much always contracted. And, ah ah you know, even 10 years ago, it wasn't unusual to recontract, especially if they were happy with your first book and they would get back to you quite quickly. But now it's very choppy waters. yeah lunching And I just think
00:37:54
Speaker
it It does just stretch out the time. And again, if you're wanting to get out a book a year, like a book a year seems easy when you're like, yeah, I can do that. I'm really disciplined. I'm going to write the book. I'm really disciplined with my writing. I write the book doesn't mean it's coming out once a year. No. goes to be me scheduleel Yeah. Yeah.
00:38:09
Speaker
yeah Yeah and I've heard, without naming any names, I've heard stories of similar things with with occasionally and an author will be querying agents and an agent will um take ah an interest in the author and then get them to make a lot of edits and this will take, yeah this can take months and months and months and then never actually sign said author. And that feels like a, that that feels like a, there's a power imbalance there. There's like, oh yeah major it doesn't seem morally correct to to be doing that. Like if you're going to,
00:38:39
Speaker
put them through that amount of time that amount of reworking you need to be on the hook for something and not just a kind of like actually you know what I'm out I'm done this isn't working for me anymore it's it's so true any other industry it doesn't happen so in my day job I work in nuclear And you do not do any work unless there's a contract in place and unless it's signed by both parties and it's in a draw somewhere, you don't do anything. And when I got my first offer through from Chicken House back in the day, um my contract took six months to finalise because they were arguing with each other. Well, not arguing, but like negotiating. Sorry, that's the wrong word.
00:39:17
Speaker
But because it took six months, I had to work on my book without a contract in place. And I remember feeling very vulnerable because because my day job had taught me, you don't do this. This is wrong. Alarm bells are ringing like constantly. And it is is any other industry, it wouldn't happen. You wouldn't do any work without a contract in place unless money had changed hands, unless there's agreement.
00:39:35
Speaker
You know, it's, it's so horrible. It's, it's, yeah. Yeah. Plus a nuclear, if alarm bells are ringing, like it's really dangerous. radiation Yeah. I think there's a different scale. It feels just as intense, but maybe it's not actually just as intense. Yeah. Yeah. If something happens with the book, it's not necessarily the end of several countries.
00:40:01
Speaker
so It's true, this is true. I'm just going to write this down for a book guys, one sec.
00:40:08
Speaker
um Let's talk about, ah so we've covered a lot about the the books and the clauses and like the writing.
Marketing and Promotion Strategies
00:40:14
Speaker
Let's talk a bit about marketing. promotion. I don't know which one of you wants to go first on this one, but like, how did you feel and like, was it different when the book came out? How did you approach marketing and promotion differently? And also did you feel like the publisher approached it differently for the second book? Yes, to both. um For myself, um so my first book was published August 2021. And my second book was published January 2023. So I had a good long break between the two.
00:40:46
Speaker
and Between that break, I ah got very, very stressed. and I always sound like my diamond shoes are too tight, but i'm i i had i I got offered to go to Barcelona. I got offered to go to France. um I had a lot of things to do for promotion in those countries. I was um you know on the phone to Spanish radio stations. I was doing articles, interviews a lot.
00:41:13
Speaker
i'm for various countries, I was very, very stressed. And I ended up off on off work for four months with stress because my day job was so intense. And then in my private life, everything was so intense, I just boiled over. So for book two, I decided I was going to do very little personally. i um And I decided I was going to post a couple of things on social media. But I set a bar for myself, basically.
00:41:40
Speaker
uh, because I didn't want to go, I didn't want to give it too much and ruin myself all over again. And, and I stuck to that and I didn't do great, uh, on social media, um, for myself. Uh, and I also noticed that my publisher didn't do as much anywhere near as much a book to you either. However, the book sold the same, uh, which is really interesting in its first six months period. Uh, it pretty much, I think it was like a hundred copies between, uh, game of a girl and every line of view in their first six months. So it was really interesting to see.
00:42:10
Speaker
So I actually didn't come ah to book of a sacrifice for me personally to not do much. I still got the same amount of sales. but I think that's pretty usual is like they will, they put, there's a lot more marketing to be done on a debut because you are creating like a brand for for the author. So yeah a lot of your sales would have come from people that enjoyed your first book and said, Oh, I really liked every line of you. I'm going to read, Naomi Gibson's put another book out. I want to read that.
00:42:40
Speaker
I like to think so, but I don't actually think that's true.
00:42:47
Speaker
I don't notice that. I don't, I don't, I don't go to bookshop and think, Oh, I love that author. That's the second book. I'm going to go and buy it. That's not how I personally think. So I don't know. I do with some authors, I think. I do. I mean, no, let's be honest. I think most of us would probably be like, Oh, Rebecca Kwong has written a new book. Let me see what it is.
00:43:07
Speaker
Yeah, if she's she's very different though because she's like a New York Times bestseller, a Sunday Times bestseller. Her books are everywhere, whereas I don't think mine necessarily works for people to be like, oh, Naomi Gibson's book is out. i think that's that I don't believe you. Sorry.
00:43:22
Speaker
so I think I personally I think it was down to the time of year ah that it came out. It was in January, it was in bookshops, everyone's got Christmas money, everyone's got Christmas vouchers, you know, somebody's grandma's given somebody some waterstones vouchers, they're going to go in and buy a book. And I was lucky enough to be that book. And that's just personally what how I think it worked out. I don't think it was brand, sorry. You're really, um obviously it's YA, both of your novels were YA, but you're really identifying the age of your audience there. Yeah, I think so. Giving pastures, giving cash.
00:44:00
Speaker
So true. um Melissa, what about you with the second in brackets parentheses asterix third book? We'll say it's the second. How did you approach marketing it differently? And also did you feel like it was a different approach? from And it's the same publisher. So I would imagine yeah you you you will have a similar experience.
00:44:21
Speaker
Yeah so first of all like just to go back a tiny bit is that the second book was a lot harder to write than the first book and even though I write quickly all the time um and I have loads of ideas like that wasn't the problem I sent them three like pictures I would have quite liked to write. I found the book um I think it was the pressure of because I was like hoping to get another contract so I was more stressed By the time they signed the contract, they were the first one. The first one, yeah, it was on sub and it was horrible. But also, I was just so relieved. You know, like, yay, they've bought the book, blah, blah, blah. This time was like, oh, God, please let me keep doing this. Like, I'm really scared. And I had to write it really quickly because I was worried about my time slot and yada, yada. So.
00:45:03
Speaker
I was a bit more stressed when they got it. And then obviously we had a short amount of time. and On the plus side, I did get into the bookseller and I got my announcement I wanted. So that was good. But I did find I was much braver about writing them about stuff. So the thing about all publishers, big or small, they all have no time.
00:45:22
Speaker
they have no time. And they only remember the person that's right in front of them. They are not going to remember you unless you are the squeaky wheel. and So I was much better the second time roundabout. I wouldn't necessarily go creeping to Lucy like, do you think maybe we could ask a new movie of time about the title? Or whatever it may be. I was just replying straight back and I would copy Lucy in.
00:45:43
Speaker
I wasn't like completely ignoring it, like going really rogue, but um I would just go to them about it. I would ask, I asked about the bookseller thing and copied Lucy in and I was just like, I'd really like it this time. I know that it was initially last time, like I'd really want this and can we talk about when it'll be? Now it's a lot more straightforward on that kind of stuff. So I think,
00:46:01
Speaker
I got maybe similar to book one but also less because I don't think they were offering as much so like I had a party up north and they did come and helped me set it up and stuff and set up some and like so the PR people there, it set up some really fun like pictures and quizzes and things for people to do and that was
Author-Publisher Dynamics
00:46:19
Speaker
really nice ah but I found I was leading it more as last time they suggested it to me and I said yeah. Whereas this time I was like right we're having a party, what are you doing at the party? because I'm doing this. So I would do a lot of more of those emails. I think they're the best emails if you're sending an email to a marketing team. I would send an email and I would say, here is the stuff I am doing. I've booked in on this podcast. I am writing this article. I'm a member of this. So they'll let me do an hour doing this. um What are you doing in those months? Or what have you set up that I need to add to my calendar?
00:46:47
Speaker
So I would like be more proactive myself. I didn't want to burn out. I totally hear what Naomi's saying. Like I said, yes to absolutely everything the first year. And seeing as I'd signed the contract to this one, like a couple of weeks, really, before the the first book came out, and I was feeling a little bit burnt out. I wasn't going to say yes to everything. But instead of waiting for stuff to come to me and then just saying yes, I sort of took the reins a bit more. So I would say they weren't necessarily ah like more forthcoming with marketing. But um if I suggested things, they were like, yeah, sure.
00:47:16
Speaker
like, let's let's give it a go. Because they're actually quite open to ideas if you bring them. Yeah, that's true, actually. yeah I think they respond better to you if you have the idea, like you say. Yeah, and if you say you've already done something, so you don't want to be, you know, that whiny person goes like, what are you doing for me? Like, you have to come to the table armed with all the stuff I've been doing. Yeah, because I guess I think that's a really good point.
00:47:39
Speaker
the publisher also wants to match your energy because there are some authors who are going to want to do as much as they possibly can and then there's other authors who are going to say look I'm not entirely comfortable doing all these like podcasts and interviews or whatever I'd rather like you know I'll do one or two events but I don't do too much and the publisher doesn't want to put you in a situation where you're not going to be your best self and like represent yourself in the book in that light. So I guess, to I mean, I think the main reason is that they're super busy. So if you come to them with ideas, that's taking like stuff off them so they can be like, this is a great idea. And it's easier for them to just implement that than come up with it.
00:48:20
Speaker
Yeah, you get less afraid of them saying no, because publishers I've found, they never say no. They're always finding a roundabout way to say no. So if you say like, I think we should target book boxes with this book. And you know, in the office, they probably looked at that and went, absolutely not. We already have two lead titles we've targeted for book boxes. They won't let us have any more, but they won't say that in the email. They'll just start back and go, we can absolutely ask. You know, okay, that's a no. Or you know, I want to be pitched to this festival and they're like,
00:48:50
Speaker
And great, we will look at the scheduling and see if we can get you off. You know what I mean? So to be fair, you can always ask because it's not actually that scary because they're never going to say no. They're just going to at least consider what you're saying. So you might as well ask for the moon because they won't say no. They'll just see what they can do. If you don't ask, you'll never, you'll never know. So you may as well ask. And i I think you should also ask for follow ups as well because if you don't, they won't tell you. They won't.
00:49:18
Speaker
come back to you and say, well, we tried, it didn't work. You've got to ask, did you do that? That's true. Actually, they don't. I just assume when I did not get onto the headliners of Edinburgh Festival, clearly I was unsuccessful. But actually in reality they probably didn't even pitch you. yeah Just following up, I don't seem to have been nominated for the Booker. You guys said that you'd look into that. Can you check why my name is missing from the Carnegie medals website, thank you very much. Exactly.
00:49:48
Speaker
Um, so the final part of this, I was going to do a few sort of like bits and bobs myths towards the end, but the final part of this, I guess, I guess then is, um, we've mentioned that we haven't specifically talked about going back on sub, I think.
00:50:04
Speaker
Melissa, Naimi, you're currently on SAB with multiple things, YA, because you now have two agents because one was not enough. You now have adult and YA. Melissa,
00:50:17
Speaker
yes melissa are you currently on SAB? I know that you have um you you have some things going on. Are you currently on SAB or no? ah Not right now. I think there's like foreign rights subs coming up, but we're waiting for like finished manuscript and because we're still sort of polishing and things. Yeah. So not right now, not on sub, which is ah really nice.
00:50:44
Speaker
so so It's so nice. How are the tables turned? It's so awful. Horrible. it it is horrible. It's is's really awful. However, I'm definitely going to be writing stuff in the new year and possibly going on sub with those. So I'm sure it feels like that the times between sub are so far and few between, it feels like. I wonder what it's like to get a seven figure deal and just stay at the same publisher for the rest of your life. It's really nice. and But ah yes, I probably will be on sub, but I'm not currently on sub, no. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. I mean, it's, there's very few people, um, who have like the, uh, the 12 book deal at book a chore or, or anything like that. Yeah. Sounds sick. that Must be nice. Um, so yeah, I guess in some ways you're kind of, even if you're on a two book contract, you will always think,
00:51:38
Speaker
yeah you know You two have both published multiple novels now. You've been in this industry for a while. You're always going to be writing something. You know, that's the thing, probably the thing that you learn after your debut is it's like, there is no kind of stop gap here. You finish one thing, you're you're writing the
Genre and Market Trends
00:51:52
Speaker
next. That might not get published. You're writing the next and the next and the next. yeah um So Naomi, you are on sub. but how is it strange. Is it kind of disheartening to to know that you kind of came into this and you were like, I've published two novels and now I'm going back on top. Yeah, I don't think it's really what anyone plans for. yes um It's definitely strange. um It's been humbling in the respect that I was a lead title. I got 11
00:52:25
Speaker
territories sold, and I was, both books are sold for film and TV. And if that doesn't secure you a third book, then bloody hell, watch out. Yeah, that is wild. of was so That's been humbling in that respect. um However,
00:52:41
Speaker
i I always knew I'd be back out on sub anyway because I do want to write cross-category. I have got adult books in the draw. um One is out on sub at the moment. I've been out on for three weeks at this point. Oh, early days. Yeah. and Still stressed, but it's fine.
00:53:01
Speaker
is it and because you're doing So your you published novels are both YA and you you're still writing YA, but you're also now writing adult as well out on sub with adult. Is it different subbing adult and YA or is it from your perspective very much the same thing? Interesting question. It's very different. um i had So I was had two projects out. ah wife yeah So I had an adult book out um about this time last year on sub and I had a YA book out in the summer.
00:53:30
Speaker
and And interestingly, I got no feedback for the YA, but I did get feedback for the adult. oh So yeah, it's, it's actually interesting. So the adult book I got, um in in the rejections, I got really nice rejections. I got people who were saying, oh, we liked it because this and this. I had one editor and at Chateau and Windus, which was just amazing.
00:53:53
Speaker
who picked out like ah lines in my manuscript and said, I love the sentence. I love that sentence. and She's a really good writer. And I was like, yes, I am. and That was great. and For the YA, it was just no, no, no. And we don't we don't know why. So I said to Jo, because I don't ask for my rejections to come through scenario because I don't want to hear about them. I just say, just tell them me if it's good news. And if I don't hear from you, I'll assume it's still going on. um So when Jo said we've heard back from everybody,
00:54:22
Speaker
And I was like, all right, so is there any general feedback that I need to have? Can I go in and edit something ah to change it? was So did ever we collectively agree on something that I can the focus on? And she said, no, we didn't get any feedback. the The best feedback we got back was I loved it, but I didn't love it enough. um And it's like, well,
00:54:43
Speaker
How useful. Yeah, so it's really difficult to know what to take away. and But for the adult, I don't know, I found it actually quite a validating experience. like I could see these people really enjoyed it. and But obviously, it just wasn't quite right for them. and But i have I feel like I have more closure on that experience. Whereas the Y was just kind of like, no, no, no. So Yeah, interesting. I think there is a difference. That kind of gives you the, you know, if Nedist is writing back to you and they're like actually quoting you to you, that first of all, obviously great validation, because you're like, I appreciate that even though it wasn't, you know, wasn't what you wanted to sign, you obviously like
00:55:24
Speaker
the the flattery is great, you know, flattery will get you everywhere. But ah I guess it also sets you up in, you know, to be like, okay, if I write something new, they like how I write, you know, that if I get something right, they could take this. Exactly. So, and Cassia has, has marked who those editors were. He said, I think I had a specific, a couple of specific editors say, show me what she's got next time. um And then obviously that person from Chateau in Windows, you obviously clearly like my writing.
00:55:53
Speaker
you know, we've targeted those people this time around. And we're hoping for a yes, this time, that'd be nice. I suppose that's what you hope for, isn't it? Yeah, so it it does, it does make it easier, I think, ah second time around, because you you sort of know who to target more, like you say.
00:56:11
Speaker
Yeah, it's probably also reflective of the market. I mean, the adult market for books is so much larger. bigger yeah So there's probably just a lot more, um you know, you're saying in publishing, everyone's busy, I think, especially in children's in YA, because I think There's, there's just, it's a much smaller market. There's just commercially, there's a lot less money in it. yeah So you look at the adult market, there's probably a lot more people working per submission, per park query. Yeah. Yeah. Cause I'm hearing from like agents we've interviewed on like right mentor, et cetera. Um, there's barely any feedback coming back and that's not what it was. Even ah it's like even during the pandemic, there was a bit more.
00:56:56
Speaker
Yeah, I agree. But there's just nothing and it's so difficult because it's not just the, and obviously the author who wants to, even your agents, then they're starting to get left in the desert a little bit because they're like, well, what do you want? And even publishers seem to be saying, this is all I'm hearing anyway, is we don't know, but we'll know when we see it. That is exactly know what the next big thing is. And we might be saturated with, say, romancy, but we're not sure if we're quite saturated. There's just not like, there's no communication. It feels like communication breakdown. Yeah. Yeah. And it just means it doesn't fit. So through to the author, what it really feels like you're lost because you're getting pretty much filtered down to nothing in terms of feedback, which is really tough. Yeah, I totally agree. It kind of feels like we're heading towards like a post trend world where it's, because I've spoken to several agents recently, and they've said,
00:57:50
Speaker
They're not really looking for anything specific right now. They're looking for something that's new, that's different. but I mean, if anything, the trend is combine different genres together. And I want to see that. yeah Interesting.
00:58:04
Speaker
which could be a good thing. you know it's it's yeah good It's sometimes nice when it's you don't look at bookseller and it's just the same, yeah you look at like the last 10, six figure deals they've announced and they're all the same genre.
00:58:15
Speaker
yeah yeah let's keep itun You're thinking, if all of these come out in the same year, only a couple of them can actually make back the money from this. Yeah, Yeah, but who knows who can say these if we could predict it, then we'd all be working in as as publishers, I imagine.
00:58:37
Speaker
um I think that mostly wraps up a kind of what what I've got here. Was there anything else you guys wanted to add it on add on like the second book and the kind of experience of of following up your debut?
00:58:53
Speaker
like what do you Do you want to go first Naomi? I was going to say be kind to yourself. um oh That's a nice one. yeah
00:59:06
Speaker
It's just such a ah tough thing to do, but to it is yeah and it will get less attention from the publisher. and So just I don't know, try and be kind to yourself as well. Maybe take it as a bit of a break and just try and enjoy it as much as you can. Yeah, that's nice advice. So here's the devil on the shoulder. ah I would say don't think of it as book two or you drive yourself mad. Like I've had so many book ones because of my crazy publishing journey.
00:59:38
Speaker
And then so I'm sure everybody has written a second book before that hasn't been published. You may have written 10 books before you got published. So I think don't think of it too much as book two, just think of it as like the continuing journey of you writing. And it's like yeah less pressure and less stressful. going Yeah, I agree. and And think you've done it once you can do it again.
01:00:02
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. Hopefully, fingers crossed. um I can't remember if it was Gabrielle Zevin or another author, but it was it was one author that was saying that they've been a one hit wonder like five or six times in their career. Right, yeah, yeah, exactly. it' just It's so up and down. You can always, I was literally having a conversation with my agent just the other the week, and I was pitching a random idea. So I have like my brand, and you have to stick your brand, and you're going to stick to brand. However, I had some like just off the wall ideas I was pitching it. And all she was saying was, you know what, if you want to write that, we could always go out under a pseudonym, we could debut again, and then I'll be a new book to you. You know what I mean? but
01:00:43
Speaker
It's an interesting point. It really is. I don't think you you can debut as many times as you want, yeah but you're in a position of strength. Of course you can. Do what you want. If you're okay with it not being your name on the spine, it's fine. Do whatever you like. Yeah. It's just be productive, but don't let it sap creativity because I think sometimes productivity and creativity are not friends.
01:01:04
Speaker
Yeah, that's funny yeah yeah I've heard in lots of different ways from like different authors and Brandon Sanderson has a whole thing about this in his one of his lectures where he says like, ah so once you finish the book and you're happy with it, he says you have to just like get rid of the that creative hat and you put on your marketing hat and now that's all you're thinking about and you can't get you can't wear both at the same time.
01:01:28
Speaker
That's so true. Which is hard when you have a book about to come out and then you sign for another book because it's book two and then you are having to wear both hats at the same time and you have to grow two heads. That is the worst bit. You can learn, a lot of it's like learned experience, just like being in the industry, understanding how these things work. So you don't have to so consciously focus on both things at once.
01:01:54
Speaker
Because also you're obviously always practicing your craft. You're always getting better at writing. That's always becoming more natural. You're not so focused on um necessarily the mechanics of it. Now you can think more about the kind of creativity of it. Yeah. ah We live and we learn. So I have just a couple of myths that I thought of here. um Obviously the first one, the big one, which is essentially the title of the whole episode is The second book is the hardest.
Second Book Pressures
01:02:22
Speaker
Would you guys agree, disagree, somewhat do and don't? Okay. Oh, it is hard. Hardest. Hmm.
01:02:33
Speaker
It is very hard. Like I found it very difficult. it Soulmates was really difficult for me to write and get into. And it's funny now seeing, so like it's one of my first ones. I have sold a Foreign Territory now for ah My Love Life in the Apocalypse, but Soulmates has sold in too much larger foreign rights territories. And I was really surprised because it felt so stressful writing. I kind of finished it, did the edits, like it was a short timeline and then just thought, well, that's my rubbish book. That's like my, that's my crap book.
01:03:02
Speaker
like it's fine i got one out like it's fine and then it's funny just reading i know obviously i never go on goodreads however when i was on goodreads the other day ael it's just funny because people have different opinions so i know i have like three books out two i thought were fairly similar love life and soul mates like romcomy bit daf bit teeny and then obviously undying towers much darker But yeah, people have different opinions, you know, they'll read Undying Tower and say, I just didn't think it had as an original a premise, as soulmates. And I'm like, Oh, they thought as soulmates had an original premise, I've decided only to date the good, okay, only to date the good. And then someone will, you know, review Love Life and say, Oh, gosh, this was so much better than soulmates. And so they did not love soulmates, but then other people did and it was their favourite. So I think and also I can look at it more objectively now and see that
01:03:49
Speaker
whilst it felt at the time like something I had to do felt like a stepping stone book it felt like if I don't do this maybe I don't know I can do it again maybe it was just a flute like the only saying you've done it once however now it's out like I have a lot more love for it and also I've got distance from it being stressful and short like time to do everything Um, so yeah, maybe, maybe it is the hardest, but maybe it depends how you go into it. It also wasn't a sequel or anything like that. And I'm always interested. I have started writing a sequel for Undying Tower and it hasn't been necessarily picked up yet. So I'll be interested writing a sequel if that would be harder, because obviously you've got a lot of the framework there and you're only in love with the world if you're writing multiple books. So.
01:04:31
Speaker
And it also, you know, it'll depend if, so your experience was that you were you were writing this without a contract. So so like you said, there was a bit of like nervousness involved with that whole process. Whereas Naomi writing your second book was under contract. And then also you have the sort of resources of the publisher on site as well. Like you're writing that yeah from scratch alongside your editor. But did that make it easier in many ways?
01:05:00
Speaker
Um, I don't think I ever really used them. I think I just was like, this is not going to go away, right? And I went away and wrote it. Um, I found it hard from the respect in in the respect that it was not how I used to write a book. It was a very different process to me creatively. Um, and I think that is why I found it harder simply because I, I wrote it from a synopsis and I don't, I don't do that. I don't like doing that.
01:05:27
Speaker
So when I next get a multiple, multiple book deal, um, I'm just going to already have the manuscript in the drawer. That's, that's my plan. never read synop yeah yeah Yeah. The publisher's like, have you got a pitch? It's like, no, but I've got a manuscript. that Is it okay if the pitch is 65,000 words long?
01:05:51
Speaker
It's like, okay, yeah, you just write the end and that's is no longer a pitch. um So the consensus is that saying second book is the hardest is probably hyperbole, but it's definitely hard. I would imagine ah and a lot of that is, it's two things. it's One is a lot of most of for most people,
01:06:13
Speaker
you are writing the first book in a sort of huge amount of space. There's no time restrictions on it. You can take as long or as short as you want. There's a lot of freedom with it. With the second book, you you're now under deadline. You have a set um at the amount of time that you need to like deliver um however many words are you know it's going to be.
01:06:31
Speaker
And then I think the other half of it is self-imposed kind of pressures that you're putting on yourself, like the imposter syndrome kicking up to fall, like you mentioned Melissa. you know um Am I a fluke? Like, did I just get lucky on that first one? Can I do it again? Yeah, exactly. And is this is the rubbish book and it is nice. I think a lot of people do not remember their second books fondly. And now I do, I do, I do love soulmates now, but it took a minute. It was, yeah, not easy.
01:07:02
Speaker
Um, the other myth I have here, and this is absolutely false. Uh, but for a variety of reasons, I think we can discuss it is that like, um, people publish a novel and obviously that feels like you've climbed the mountain. You've, you've reached the peak and you've done it. You've fulfilled the dream. I've published my novel. And then they think, well, it doesn't matter that I'm not in a multiple book contract because now that I've published one, I'm in like the next contract will be easy to get.
01:07:32
Speaker
Obviously not. I did think that like with my one book contract, I was quite confident they would take another one because I said, all my friends had two book contracts and I just had this weird thing in my head of like, they just they just run out of money when they got to me. That's why they're little one book.
01:07:47
Speaker
and they'll definitely take a second one and they they did take a second one so it's easy for me to think that but actually looking back on it um i think like i was lucky that they enjoyed because it's all look like lucky that they like the idea i think i was very careful to make sure it was still in brand And that it would fit in with the previous book and help push sales of the previous book. So I was thinking about all those business sided things, but yeah, my God, no, it's not in the bag at all. And as Naomi said, like once you get to the end of a contract as well, and you've got that option clause and you think it's so good, they're definitely going to take another one. Why would they want the option clause if I wasn't going to be a big star? And then it's just no, that's not what's happening. Yeah.
01:08:30
Speaker
I think it's tricky as well because you you do get put in a box where your books are all expected to be sort of similar vibes. And if your first one doesn't sell and then your second one doesn't sell, ah why would they want you to continue writing in that box? And I think that can be really tricky if that happens.
01:08:53
Speaker
Yeah, I think it can be it can be a double-edged sword going out on sub after you've published because the publishers obviously are going to be aware of your previous works and like they can find out how how those have sold but at the same time you know and if if those are Bad you know that could be taken back and make them where it is obviously if those are very if it works out really well then they're gonna be like great this is fantastic. um But equally i think it can be a real boom because then the publisher knows that. You've done this before you can work on a time and you can work on a schedule you can you know how this process works.
01:09:36
Speaker
You know some sometimes I seem I would imagine with debut authors there can be a big concern when an editor's you know meets the author and they're like this person might you know they don't they haven't done this before and it might be like a take a long time for them to like integrate into how our system works.
01:09:55
Speaker
I don't know if they do that enough though. So like I was thinking about this, like when you go back on sub, if you lost a job and you were applying for another job, you'd have a referee previous job that would be like, yeah, Naomi knows how to stop a nuclear meltdown. I don't know he did near me that's exactly i saw yeah perfect yeah that's exactly what you do,
01:10:13
Speaker
and But you would have like a referee saying this person is punctual.
PR and Online Presence
01:10:16
Speaker
They hand in their edits on time. They are really good at taking instruction. ah They're really fun to work with. You would have a referee, right? Whereas I feel like in publishing, it's all about the idea and the hook. I feel like especially at the minute, I could be completely wrong here. I'm sure like a publisher be like, no, there's loads of other stuff that goes into it. But it does sometimes feel like they don't think enough.
01:10:35
Speaker
about like, Oh, will this person know how it works? And will they be on temp? Because it certainly doesn't come up. You know what I mean? i I agree with you. And I think PR training is so valuable. And if you have already gone through it, and you know, kind of what's expected of you PR wise, and what to say in interviews, and what not to say, I think very importantly, that is so valuable, because it is so many authors get cancelled, they were saying the wrong thing. And if you've already got that background, where you're good at these kind of things, and you don't say the wrong thing. I think yeah that is such a valuable skill. I would hire me. Yeah. Exactly. But they they do not ask that before offering a contract. They sometimes ask after. They sometimes ask like, oh, so would you be confident in events? Have you done events before? But they ask way after they've offered. it Yeah. Stupid.
01:11:25
Speaker
Yeah, I think that's true. And then they'll expect, you know, a lot of the time you're, it's not necessarily, I don't want to say expected, but it's very encouraged that you are active online on whatever platforms you, you know, are most comfortable with. Yeah, it is. Yeah. Yeah. Chickenhouse said to me so many times, we love what you do online.
01:11:48
Speaker
we love the videos that you do. Yeah. If you don't want to do it, they don't make you do anything. They're not going to mind. No, no, no. But if they do it, they notice. But if they do heavily talk to you about like how important it is to have an online presence and if you're comfortable. It can be. But it sounds like... To be honest, mostly it is. You know, it might be doing nothing, you know. When Sunny Dean was on the podcast a while back, she was saying, yeah,
01:12:13
Speaker
she didn't feel like anything that she did in terms of marketing had any effect on the success of her novels, which were wildly successful.
Media Adaptations and Cultural Fascinations
01:12:21
Speaker
yeah yeah I think it's more just to show your publisher that you are trying, I think it is.
01:12:27
Speaker
Yeah. And you know, who knows when one random post on TikTok is going to go viral and then the book sells out. yeah I think they think about that a lot. TikTok wins the publishing industry. They want to be like spinning as many slot machines as they can in terms of like maybe something could just explode. her Yeah. Which makes sense. Like it's not necessarily stupid.
01:12:47
Speaker
Yeah that about wraps it up um so. I guess let's finish as we often do anything exciting new added to your to be read list are you guys watching anything cool that's that's just come out recently.
01:13:03
Speaker
yeah I just finished reading Sweet Pea, like I was telling you guys earlier, and I thought it was brilliant. I really love it. But I don't have now TV, so I can't watch the series, but I love the book. No, did you now? The book? Yeah. but It lives in my head. face and was it Will you watch it if it becomes available to you?
01:13:22
Speaker
if i If I see it or somewhere I have access to, then yeah, I probably would give it a go. But I'm always hesitant because sometimes I'm not what you think. um Sometimes if I watch something and I find out it's a book later, I'll go back and read the book, but it's not Yeah, it's difficult, isn't it? When you read the book and you love it and then you it comes out in adaptation, you're like, is it going to be good? That's how I felt about the A Monster Calls film, which I think has very good reviews, but I just feel like it's good the book was so perfect that I have, there's nothing to interest me in that film. Like it can't give me anything the book didn't give me. Yeah, interesting.
01:14:02
Speaker
Yeah. Um, what have we, oh, we just watched, you guys ever watched South Korean game shows? Yeah. We watched a culinary class wars. who which is we we only watched it because we watched a different show called Physical 100. And let me tell you, no one's doing reality TV competitions on the scale and level of South Korea. It's amazing. Like these are the craziest shows I've ever seen. Absolutely addicted. We like binge them so hard.
01:14:33
Speaker
there's one in one of the in the in this so it's a cooking show with like professional chefs there's Michelin star chefs competing in it and uh one of the challenges is there's a bunch of them they just have tons of tofu and they have to every half an hour they have to cook a new tofu dish and then each half an hour one person is eliminated No way, that's really brutal. They end up going for like three hours. Just they've cooked so many tofu dishes at this point. It's just mental. Perfect. It's great. I would recommend it.
01:15:07
Speaker
It's all on Netflix as well. So most people have Netflix. Yeah, there you go. What about you, Melissa? I have just finished reading Death of a Bookseller. I know I'm really late. Like it was 1990. Sue me. ah For my book club. but And ah yeah, I really liked it. um I thought like, what's funny is because I'm a plotter. there actually I realized at the end it wasn't actually like a lot of plot, but I just really enjoyed like the two characters. I thought they were hilarious, like, hateable, likable, like just bonkers. I had no idea what was going to happen.
01:15:37
Speaker
Every time I thought I knew what was going to happen, it didn't. It took another twist. I really liked that. I think it's Alice Slater, I want to say. And I am watching this weekend. We booked the double bill for Glickid to see Gladys. You were wicked. The new barbechimer. Is that a thing? Yes, the new barbechimer. Did you not know? Did no one tell you? It's like the poster is like Ariana Grande whispering in Paul Messkal's ear. I think there's like a gladiator with like alphabet on it. Yeah, so we're going to go and see that. And my partner keeps getting annoyed because I keep calling it Glicked instead of Glicked. Glicked. It's Glicked. It's not Glicked. And I'm like, yeah, written down. It's like Glicked, isn't it? He's like, that sounds horrible. I don't want to say Glicked. So yeah, we're doing Glicked. I'll report back.
01:16:29
Speaker
Nice. i I've heard good things about Gladiator. yeah Big shoes to fill. That's a film of film of our youth. um yeah so good Awesome. I think that about wraps it up. Cue the music.
01:16:49
Speaker
Thanks for putting up with our nonsense for another episode. To stay tuned to everything we're