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S5.E2 - The Truth about becoming a Full Time Author
56 Plays13 hours ago
We're diving into what it means to be a full-time author, the realities of reaching that point and why most authors have another source of income.
- Naomi Gibson, author of Every Line of You, Game Over Girl, Man Muse Monster
- Melissa Welliver, author of The Undying Tower, My Love Life and the Apocalypse, Soulmates and Other Ways to Die, To the Death
- Jamie Greenwood, creator & host of The Write and Wrong Podcast
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Transcript
Introduction and Listener Engagement
00:00:00
Speaker
Hello, we would love to hear from you. If you have any stories or anecdotes about publishing, good or bad, we would love to hear about them and we'll talk about them. Or if you just have any questions or if you think it's anything we missed in in this episode or any of the previous episodes, reach out to us. You can find all of us on social media, on Instagram, or wherever it might be, or you can have it to the Right and Wrong podcast website. Yeah, all our DMs are open. Send us messages. Let us no you know what what you've been up to in publishing. We'd love to talk about it and and hear about it.
Humorous Takes and Misconceptions in Literature
00:00:29
Speaker
Shrek and Christian Grey are different characters. You heard it here first. I'm finished it. After every episode was like, oh my gosh, I'm so angry at these toxic characters. Like, shove more food in my mouth across the next episode. because I loved it, but obviously I hate it. This is so much fun. This is this my Malfoy-Himayali fan.
00:00:50
Speaker
She shouldn't have done that. I'm trying to make Neville happen. It's too wholesome.
00:00:58
Speaker
too wholesome. Not enough emotional damage to light my fire. So I have a one star review here.
00:01:09
Speaker
yes. It's a really easy one. I warn you now that it's long. I found it the other day and I thought it was, um it made me laugh. So you guys, I imagine we'll get it very quickly, but it's quite long. So I'll try and get through it without laughing. I'm psyched up. let's go.
00:01:26
Speaker
The author has really dropped the ball on this one. It's all very well writers using their imagination, but asking me to believe that animals can not only learn to speak English, but also successfully run a semi-industrialized working farm is frankly a bit patronizing. Pigs can't talk and they certainly can't conceive of harnessing wind power to produce electricity. No doubt he got the idea from watching episodes of Peppa Pig with his kids, but adults won't believe this sort of nonsense. Let's hope he comes back with something a bit more serious next time.
00:01:57
Speaker
Well, a bit more serious is actually the worst bit, I feel like, of the entire review. is is You know this one, don't you? Animal Farm? It Animal by George Orwell. Oh my gosh, I got two in the room. The least serious author of all time. It's like George Orwell, Rebecca Yaros.
00:02:15
Speaker
ah can't believe it. That is, oh, you're really revealing a lot about yourself with that review, aren't you? I know we shouldn't go for reviewers, but yikes. I love it. The thing is, it's like, I don't know if that person's written that as a joke. I don't think is. Or if it's someone who seriously doesn't know when Animal Farm was written. Let's hope he comes back with something better.
00:02:37
Speaker
We're all rooting for you, George.
Realities of Being a Full-Time Author
00:02:42
Speaker
Okay, so this is the season of misconception. um On this episode, our topic is the misconceptions around what it takes to become a full time author. So you're not, you know, this is covering your entire living costs, your entire income. um And I think there's a lot of misconceptions about this.
00:03:08
Speaker
That's why we decided to talk about it. ah I thought an interesting spot to start off with here is, and this is sort of adjacent but very much related, is the misconception from people outside of publishing about what it means to be like a writer and an author. Yeah.
00:03:27
Speaker
Anyone who's written as a hobby or like thought about writing or is is currently writing, when you tell someone that you're writing a ah novel or that you've written the novel, they'll always say, oh, when's it getting published? Or, when where you know, can I get it? and Will I find it in a bookshop?
00:03:44
Speaker
No, unlikely. Probably not. Probably not. No, there's so many steps between you writing a novel and, and getting it into a, into a bookshop. I know this isn't necessarily about becoming a full-time writer, but yeah, I think there's such a, there's such a misconception from people outside that you just write something and it gets published and now you're an author. now you're a millionaire yes exactly oh that's ah that's a huge part of that as well yeah we'll we'll get into that i'm sure is it yeah the amount of money that people think is in yeah uh writing versus not yeah um but i think i mean between the three of us we know a lot of authors um and for the authors that i know at least i think so few of them are full-time authors almost all of them have
00:04:33
Speaker
a part-time job or a full-time job yeah alongside um their their kind of revenue from that. Does that line up with your experience with you guys and and your friends who are authors? Yeah, yeah definitely. And like, can we also like even going back a step further, what people...
00:04:50
Speaker
consider to call a full-time author because I know authors that and by the way I have no problem with them calling themselves a full-time author I agree with them they'll say they're a full-time author and they're also running so not necessarily like a second job like PAYE but they're also running you know workshops yeah and they're doing a university placement they are going in school visits they're doing all this other stuff that is not writing so I know we're obviously talking about what does it mean to be a full-time author like there's so much other stuff that definitely I went, especially before I got into publishing, to me, like a full-time author, the one I would want to be is's the one that just writes all the time. But that doesn't seem to exist even in upper echelons of money. so
00:05:35
Speaker
That's true. Yeah, that's true. true um um Obviously, some of that's optional. There's a lot of authors who... will don't necessarily need to for financial reasons but will do like courses at universities or something like that yes yeah or love doing school visits really common in kid lit um there's people yeah i know um we've had a mom before uh philip like he loves doing school visits like yeah so he would always do them yeah exactly i mean there's a part of it which is like you want to give back or you just want to like engage with the community and things like that yeah and it's yeah
00:06:09
Speaker
Yeah, Philip Cavadius, one of his favorite things to do is is just chat with kids about the novels and and the the people the people that are actually reading his books and kind of get their feedback and stuff. yeah So I get that.
00:06:20
Speaker
And obviously someone like Brandon Sanderson, who is breathtakingly wealthy. Yeah. ah He still does, you know, he, i don't know if he does it at the university anymore. i know during COVID he he continued doing his series of lectures. He's been doing those lectures for like 10 years now. yes And he doesn't, I don't think he does that for any financial incentive that he doesn't need that. He's just doing it because he likes to do that. He likes to kind of educate and, and share his knowledge and and kind of try and um rise up a sort of next a new generation of writers. Yeah.
00:06:52
Speaker
But I think it's it's good to sort of specify what we're talking about when we say full-time authors, because like you said, a lot of them do then monetize extra activities around writing, yeah still using that skillset.
00:07:03
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah, I guess if you say to me, full time author, I'm picturing that they just write and then they publish and they write and they publish and they're not doing, you know, one or two things. Sure. But most of the time, it's just they're just writing novels and those are being published and then they're promoting them.
00:07:22
Speaker
Yeah, I would say. Yeah. Yeah. which feels like doesn't even even if you're ah you don't need to doe those things for extra monetto for various different reasons you know depending on what your ah financial situation is like at home or whether you know you've had another job and save lots of money and so that's like your backstop or whatever the reason that you don't need to work alongside it or you've been paid loads of money and you feel like that's your wage for the year. So that's fine.
00:07:46
Speaker
Even then, you know, hear authors are always struggling to find time to write because they're doing, especially if you've got, say, six-figure deal, they're doing promotional stuff or they're doing other things in order to make sure that their book is a success as opposed to writing the next book.
00:08:01
Speaker
I guess ah in some ways it's a sign of the times too, because it used to be much more expected that an author was just an author in terms of they, you didn't have to do as much self-promotion and marketing as you're expected to do nowadays. and Probably with social media and stuff. It's probably, yeah. Yeah, and and enough exactly.
00:08:19
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. Cause you know, unless you're mega huge, you're doing your own social media account. Yeah. Yeah. which comes with which comes with a lot of its own baggage and frustrations. um When we talk about even if you get like a big lump sum, I think what's the reality to you guys? And we kind of, you guys know people who have got six figure deals. Let's use that as the sort of benchmark of huge successful deal.
00:08:47
Speaker
Does it feel like even if you get a six figure deal, you're still kind of like worried about this being a full time thing? Or do you think that's the kind of that gives you ah a kind of comfort zone?
Financial Challenges and Freelance Nature of Writing
00:08:58
Speaker
I think personally, for me, it would probably give me a buffer. It would probably buy me like two to three years or something.
00:09:07
Speaker
Yeah, that's interesting. Buying time. Yes, you're so right. Yeah, I think I wouldn't look at it as a permanent thing. um Yeah. Yeah. we've We've talked before about and some authors you've who've got six-figure deals their agent has said to them, you know, ah this is very unlikely to ever happen again. Let's make hay while the sun shines.
00:09:29
Speaker
um yeah you know And I think that agent has probably grounded them in the sense that they know that this isn't going to be for forever and don't get cozy, basically. So for me, yeah, I think it would buy me time, but I wouldn't ever think it would be a permanent thing.
00:09:44
Speaker
Yeah. And it depends... Again, depends on your financial situation. You know, I know somebody who got a quote unquote, according to the bookseller, major six figure deal. um And it's for a multi book deal. And they were literally asking around for extra work because they live in an expensive area. By the time the tax man's done with you, etc. They are looking for the work. you know And they were asking, um you know all about like so I do extra stuff, which we can talk about later, but I do like mentoring and stuff. They were asking how to set themselves up as say a mentor or something like that. How do they get involved with that kind of stuff? And yeah, they were saying they were literally struggling to, especially i think because the money's paid in chunks.
00:10:22
Speaker
Yeah, so I think there was like a thing about, yeah, I think they would like, you know, doing up a house. So then the money's paid in a chunk. I'm doing a house. I totally get it. And you pay for new windows because all the windows are cracked. And then suddenly you skin until next year.
00:10:35
Speaker
so long as you can survive till next year, like you'll get more money. So it's tough, isn't it? Yeah. Obviously what we're talking about, it depends on financial situation, obviously if it's like a multi um income household that can change things. Yeah, exactly. if If you don't need to be covering all the costs and you can balance it with someone else, obviously you could potentially be a full time author. Yes. you had a but partner who was also paying the bills. as As well, like from what you're saying, it could be this fact that your day job pays really quite well.
00:11:05
Speaker
And so yeah your threshold for being able to actually quit your job is higher. um Yes. yes so Yeah. So see that quite a lot. Yeah. And so when people are just juggling two 40 hour a week jobs, one being an author doing quite well and one being a job. And they're like, Oh God, when do I pick a lane? Yeah. Well, that's it. So, so like,
00:11:25
Speaker
Your six figure a deal might at a minimum would be like, what, 30, 33 grand a year or something along those lines. Yeah, if you get like three books. you get three books. And that might not actually anywhere near your day job salary. So whilst that's yeah very lovely money, it's actually a pay cut if you took it. So yeah.
00:11:43
Speaker
Yeah. And you know, you're, most people will be living with, within their means of, yeah. So if they have a high paying day job, yeah the idea of you'd have to be even more successful as an author to quit and make that into your full-time job. yeah Unless you're willing to just take the cut. Yeah.
00:11:57
Speaker
Yeah. Going back to just saying like, yeah, getting a six figure deal, you said, you described it, it feels like a buffer. because essentially being an author is a freelance job you are a freelance author and you know you need to keep getting the work and I guess if you great yeah amazing if you've landed a six-figure deal um but you know if that doesn't sell well it can in some ways hurt you in terms of uh it might be harder to find a a follow-up contract and and you're unlikely to get and especially if it hasn't you know unless it's done astronomically you're not going to get another six-figure one yeah
00:12:34
Speaker
Yeah, it so it's unlikely. um Unless, as you say, it does really well, which it which can be really scary. But it's not saying you would never necessarily get another contract. And then, of course, there's the whole thing about if you have a job that pays well and then you're doing this on the side, quote unquote, which I don't really like saying because it's a creative activity. So it's not really that you're doing something the side. um But you may be thinking, oh, yeah, you know, you've woken up every day for two years at 5.30 a.m. so that you can get half an hour of writing in before 6 a.m. when your family wake up and you've got to go to work. Right. And then suddenly the book's coming out and you might think, yeah, can just totally continue doing this alongside my job.
00:13:09
Speaker
There is so much more than writing, as we were saying. So suddenly you're being asked to do events all weekend. Right. and travel for those events. You're being asked to do school visits. You've to take a day off work. You're being asked, um you need to write all these little articles that come out in various papers and magazines ready for your book. that They're not paid. They're considered like quite often they're not paid. I'm sure there are some that are paid, but I've not been so lucky to get to that work. And you know, you do it because you want to write all these blog articles to try and link back to your book. You're trying to do all that PR stuff. And also your your mental headspace gets taken up with all we've talked about it loads, but like the mental load of publishing a book and how scary that can be so i think sometimes as well you might think oh this is great it'll just be on top because i've been doing fine doing half an hour every morning for two years suddenly you've got to get another book in in five months and it's scary it is scary
00:13:58
Speaker
we're We're being a bit doom and gloom here. Let's see if... Let's
00:14:04
Speaker
let's see if we can turn this around. Looking at it optimistically, you two both have two novels out. ah The... thing that i've heard i think i think was from you that i heard this melissa is that um the brace yourselves um is is that it's people can often move into or consider um making um being being their writing in their books that their kind of full-time income when they hit around six novels published do we think that's still a true thing
00:14:41
Speaker
Yeah, so I heard this from, and by the way, I have three books out. It's fine. was going to say. I'm not even bird about it. And one of them was released twice, so we'll call it three and a half. One of them was literally released. is how good that book is. Yeah, i it's really tough because, so I heard i heard this from, I can say where heard it from, um on YouTube, um Alexa Dunn, who is a young adult author that ah very candidly talks about her publishing journey, for better or worse, on her YouTube channel. And she said that, like, the sort of holy...
00:15:11
Speaker
like thing is to get to five books and once you've got five books out you're rolling royalties etc etc now the problem at the minute I would actually say is in a world where we are just chucking stuff away and we've got very short attention spans I would say the um shelf life of a book has got shorter so having a book out if you have a book out a year and that fifth book comes out and so you've got book one came out five years ago I'd be amazed if it's still in print nowadays with how So mid-list stuff can go. So I would say that now possibly isn't the case, but it depends if any of those books. So I see i see um people get these big deals and if they've got a big back catalogue, you then see in Publishers Weekly, etc., um you know, oh, they sold this book, six-figure deal or whatever, and sold it to five other countries.
00:15:59
Speaker
Other books sold in their back catalogue were also these. So sometimes having a back catalogue, and certainly if you have a if you have a success on book five or six, I seem to remember, I'm sure I saw, I'm sorry, it's wrong, but I'm pretty sure I saw like ah when Laura Stephen announced her um Our Infinite Fates deal. I remember seeing in Publishers Weekly some of her other books got picked up underneath.
00:16:22
Speaker
That's cool. Oh, see. Yeah. So because she sold that book and maybe maybe publishers, say, in France who missed out on the book they wanted, they can then go through her back catalogue and be like, well, this person's about to be very popular. It would be stupid not to pick up maybe one of the other books. Maybe it'll be a cheaper book.
00:16:36
Speaker
ah I don't know how. Obviously, I don't have Nielsen in decks. have no idea how her other books have done, but I know she's prolific and got lots of other books. So it's possible that you can pick up other books. ones if you're prolific like that and then hit sort of a really big deal in your career later like laura steven has done and has spoken about quite a lot on her um blog post so you can like go and read about that if you want to and just google laura steven she talks about this all the time um yeah so it can have a really good effect but i think it's not the golden like the silver bullet used to be you what mean Yeah, I think having a back catalog is definitely an asset. Yeah.
00:17:11
Speaker
But it doesn't. Yeah, it doesn't. It used to be quite a sort of tried and true where it's like, OK, you know, you're you're the income is steady now. Yeah. But I don't think it's that anymore. My phone went off. That's so unprofessional. yeah
00:17:24
Speaker
it so so and are you even a millennial what are you doing um what was i gonna say yeah know it's it's funny that you mentioned uh the um people buying up back catalogs yeah it's slightly different but i was talking to i was doing an interview for the right and wrong podcast the other day And we were talking about, um, kind of changes and new things that have happened within the industry over the past few years. And, um, it was brought to my attention that, uh, Denmark, I think it was Denmark.
00:17:59
Speaker
I can't, I can't figure it. I think it was Denmark. It was one of the Nordics, um, They have been, they've had a huge surge in buying up um romance novels. Because they've never, there's not many locally written romance novels. So there was, i think, a publishing house that opened over there, which basically exclusively buys up um romance from other countries and translates them. Wow.
Market Opportunities and Trends in Publishing
00:18:24
Speaker
And then that's been a huge, like, market boom there. So a lot of romance authors who whose novels, you know, their kind of back catalogs have just been bought up. in Denmark specifically and I presume this is probably happening in other countries with other genres too and they're just they're getting this huge kind of boom of romance in Denmark which has not really had much of that in the in the publishing space so there is kind of exciting stuff happening with back catalog things so like yeah a lot of romance authors their older books have suddenly been picked up and they've got in terms of you know
00:18:57
Speaker
cash injection they would have just got a a nice bump of cash when it's like oh this country has just bought up a bunch of your uh your the rights for your old novels and the translation rights it feels like free money yeah that happens like it really does it's so it's work you did years and years ago and it shouldn't it annoys me actually it feels like free money because we often get underpaid in the first place and then something might take off and you get some money but yeah when you get those little bit injections of free money even if it's not a six-figure deal by the way like even if The abroad, and the foreign translation rights, even if it's like a thousand euros, it's just extra money for your book. Yeah. It's so good. Love me some foreign territory deals.
00:19:32
Speaker
yeah um But then even, let's say it's still true and you get five books, it's probably higher now, but yeah you get your five books out.
00:19:43
Speaker
with I was trying to go not doom and gloom, but let's talk about the reality of the situation. Five books, if you're traditionally publishing at best, you're probably looking at five years at the very best. with that yeah That's no break on contracts. That's yeah every year you're getting a contract or whatever it is so that you're doing very well.
00:20:06
Speaker
That's five years to get five books, which is not going to be like a massive salary if that is, you know, ticking up to to whatever, you know, that might be,
00:20:19
Speaker
not much more than minimum salary if you were to convert it to to working a ah job obviously depending on sales and things like that yeah if you spent five years working you know an office job yeah the increase in your salary would be dramatic yeah yeah compared to that it sucks yeah this is a fun episode cold hard reality i tried my best okay Yeah.
00:20:46
Speaker
The reality of becoming a full-time writer is it's such a difficult thing to do. Yes, that is. I think that's the main thing and it should not be sniffed at. if so I remember went to um I went to a Q&A recently for an author and somebody asked a question um if somebody had a second job and the author did have a second job. They're working as a mental health nurse and the person replied, oh it's so refreshing to hear an author say,
00:21:13
Speaker
that they actually need to have a second job. Oh, come on. I actually guffawed, you know, like an actual guffaw. I choked on my pint as I was sat in the audience saying, what are you talking about? Pretty much everyone I know does at least something else. yeah ah yeah So I don't know if maybe authors feel like they can't talk about it. And that's where she's getting that from.
00:21:34
Speaker
Do they feel like a failure talking about it? Or they don't want to talk about it. you know I've got a friend who is ah works in HMRC and another friend that works in the prison system and they use a pseudonym right for publishing their book and they would never talk about work when talking about their book because they don't want to be linked to that for various privacy reasons. I have that the other way as well where I don't want to talk about being an author at my day job. because and yeah That makes sense actually though. Yeah, because...
00:22:02
Speaker
and A lot of my contract, so when you get a job, you sign a contract, don't you? In that contract, it often says you're not allowed to work anywhere else. um and And I've had it before where one company really did not like that I was earning on the side with something else. And I had to have a big chat with HR and get like a a sign off thing saying it's okay.
00:22:26
Speaker
Um, yeah. wow And they very much viewed it as a second job. And so, um, I don't, uh, shout about the fact that I'm an author at my day job and, um, someone was leaving the company, ah like a few weeks ago.
00:22:40
Speaker
And, um, I was like, oh yeah, catch up now that we're not colleagues, I'll give you my Instagram and we'll wholl hang out on her. I'll give you access to my secret life. As soon as she got she like added me like 15 minutes later, then she was like, oh my gosh, you're an author. And I was like, oh yeah, I forgot. Because I just, I don't tell people because it I just don't want them to think that my attention is elsewhere. i don't need the drama. Yeah. of HR getting involved and wading in and accusing me of having a second job accusing me of like moonlighting whatever so yeah it's a little bit of a double life thing yeah that's so interesting I hadn't thought about it that way around yeah because I would assume most the the the jobs that I've had if you did I understand if it was like a full-time employment you know but writing like we said is basically a freelance job you know this is
00:23:33
Speaker
it's as and when doing doing it in your own time for the most part. Yeah. So it's, yeah, it's it's wild to me that you had to speak to HR. Yeah. I mean, that wasn't a very good company to be honest, but like they were a bit weird in there. But they did have a point though, because that was the place where I ended up off on stress for like four months. And it came, it was about a year after I'd had a book out. I mean, we were in the midst of COVID and my job quality absolutely tanks. There were a few things that went on. But that year I had used all of my leave, basically doing book stuff to promote my book because was a debut and I wanted to do it right.
00:24:13
Speaker
But it did take its toll and they were right to be worried. You know, I've got another book coming out next year and I'm concerned about how that's going to go. So, ah yeah, all fun and games for this episode, isn't it?
00:24:24
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. But at least this time and you're much more experienced. Exactly. I know what to look out for. Yeah, for sure. You massively overcommit yourself in your first year. I said yes to absolutely everything. And I've not, I've not got a book out this year. and I thought I would really miss like not being invited to events because obviously I get invited to all the big events usually. um But I thought I'd like really miss not um doing anything or doing any book promo or launching a book or having a party. But no, I tell you what, the break has been very good for my brain. Yeah. oh my god it's actually been kind of nice having a break it was not it was not chosen break as i've said before so many people say to me like who aren't in publishing they'll say like wow it's so great that you're doing so well you felt like you could take a year out to really refill the creative well and i'm like yeah dog sure yeah that's what's happening Whereas instead, it was just publishing schedules and I've ah moved to a different publisher. So yeah we're doing like a relaunch. it's not There's nothing like sketchy behind it at all. But also it wasn't my choice. No, no, that's it. And I think that's another point as well. Financially especially. Even if you're planning on earning, so you get a six-figure deal, which if it's three-book deal, it's like 30k, let's say, at a minimum. Yeah. you don't have any control over when you get paid that. So if your, if your publisher de decides they're going to move your book like six months down the line, you're missing out on a chunk of your advance. If you don't have any control, yeah it's even more tricky to make sure you're earning to survive. Yeah. Especially if you're kind of financially planning for like, okay, well I'm going to get this much money so yeah I can cover rent yes for like this month, et cetera, et cetera. That freelance life.
00:26:03
Speaker
yeah what i would say about the people talking about their jobs and that interview is wild to me that someone said it was refreshing to hear that i had a second job and wow it was free but they lived i that's what made me think did people just hide its so odd That being said, watch any movie about an author and they're all just kind of sitting around musing and pondering and then they write something and then it gets published next week. And it's so unrealistic.
00:26:34
Speaker
That's probably where people would get it from. But in terms of... um jobs in an author. The one time I do see it a lot, because obviously I interview a lot of authors on Right Wrong Podcasts and I get sent, I work with a lot of publicists and I'll get sent their kind of bio, um kind of one pager beforehand.
00:26:52
Speaker
if the job is tied to something in the novel, they will always mention that this is so-and-so's job. Yeah. So like, if there's like a medical thing in the, uh, medical themes or like, um, themes of like trauma or death and the, the writer is also like an a nurse or something or a doctor. yeah Yeah. Then that will always be mentioned in, in the segment.
00:27:15
Speaker
That's true. That's useful. Yeah. That's kind of the only time reens doesn' it gets brought up to me for interviews. Yeah. And that's, and that obviously is giving them a skillset that, cause this is the other thing. If you're, you know, if you're lucky enough in life that you are born into a billionaire family and never have to work a day in your life, which is literally no one I've ever met. And it's like several different characters in fiction. I've met, uh, that's a weird way to put it. Yeah. Go on then. Um, I, you, you obviously always have some life experience doing something else and that should be celebrated. yeah as opposed to being this massive source of stress. And what really bugs me about your story, Naomi, is that I don't know anyone that takes time out of work to write a book. Everyone I know that's written a book and it's been published, they will tell me like, oh yeah, wrote it that half an hour in the morning, or I did not go to loads of my kids' stuff and I missed out on family time in order to write that book, or I didn't have a lunch hour.
00:28:13
Speaker
I just stayed at my desk and I wrote for half an hour during my lunch hour, which is your lunch hour they are allowed to do, And I wrote it on my laptop that I brought in. Yeah. So I never used it. I don't know anyone. I mean, don't get me wrong. I'm sure they wouldn't admit to it, but they were very candid in saying when their writing time was and saying that they they missed out on other stuff in order to write. Yeah. It's nothing to do with work. So that bugs me. Yeah.
00:28:36
Speaker
The number of authors, and mean, especially now, because obviously all the books are coming out now, but the number of author ah authors that I've spoken to who ah recently, who have said um something along the lines of, I've always wanted to write a novel and I've written bits and bobs here and there, but when,
00:28:51
Speaker
COVID hit and lockdown came into effect and, you know, I was furloughed. I was like, oh, well, this is, you know, this is my chance. This is the only time I'm going to get this much time. And the amount of people that wrote novels in that time that had been published, like last year, this year is, is just astonishing. Cause it's like, yeah, this is the, the only time people have found the the only time in their lives when they've had this sort of space yeah to do something like this.
00:29:17
Speaker
Yeah. Both mental and like the actual time that you have. Yeah. Yeah. Another one, uh, I've had a few authors on who wrote their first novel in, um during their maternity leave.
00:29:30
Speaker
yes I hear about that a lot actually. Yeah. Yeah. Just while they while they're kind of at home with their baby, and maybe their husband um or or their other half is like out um at work or whatever it is. And then they're the one that's there.
00:29:47
Speaker
The baby's asleep or like they're just there writing. so yeah, that's one i've heard a few times. Yeah. um So I have been saving this while.
00:29:59
Speaker
because we haven't touched on it and i was like we've got to have something positive um at this at the beginning i said for the most part the authors that i know and i've met are not full-time the vast majority of the ones who I would, um, I would say are full-time authors based on our earlier definitions are, uh, self published indie published authors.
00:30:25
Speaker
There's, and there's a lot of reasons for this. There's, uh, what, another thing is that backs up this thing that I've heard is cause I've had, uh, self indie published authors on the podcast and I've, I've heard their stories about how they, you know, they were just kind of writing this thing for fun and they, they posted it.
00:30:41
Speaker
and they put it online and people bought it and now they're the main breadwinner in their household. um Yeah. And then this was backed up for me when I interviewed Travis Baldry, um who was a huge breakout success some years ago with Legends and Lattes. Basically like,
00:30:58
Speaker
um, blew up the cozy fantasy genre. Um, uh, I was talking to him. He, he, so he has had many jobs, very interesting guy, very interesting career. Um, but he, um, currently and, and prior to his novel coming out does a voiceover work and narrates audio books, uh, for, for people. and he was saying through that work, he obviously has met a lot of authors and a large number of them, ind Indian self published.
00:31:27
Speaker
And he said that of the authors he knows, the authors that he's worked with a lot more who are doing it full time, who have made it a full time career are indie and self-published authors versus traditionally published authors. it's interesting. Yeah, that makes sense to me. that And like the whole payment structure is different. There's monthly payment structures. You're in charge of your own marketing budget. If you want to invest that, like that is up to you to do. You're not trying to persuade a marketing team. like There's a million reasons why I can see that easily is the...
00:31:59
Speaker
case I think we've mentioned before, though, I would always be interested to know because it feels impossible to find these numbers, but the percentage of trad authors that consider themselves full time versus the percentage of self-published authors, because for accessibility reasons, there are more self-published books published every year than there are traditionally published books.
00:32:19
Speaker
So I would be interested to know if like, you know, is it like, oh, only 5% of trad authors are full time, but 15% of self-published authors are. is that Is that the number? Or is it that it's the same percentage or maybe even lower because there's so many more self-published books because it's a very ah busy space?
00:32:37
Speaker
I don't know. Yeah. I mean, before anyone listening stops the podcast here and goes and does something rash, like Melissa said, there's a million reasons why... this is the case.
00:32:48
Speaker
And it's absolutely not to say that indie publishing is a, in quotes, better way of doing things. Yeah. Or easy. Cause it's not. No, exactly. i mean, it's it's a bit much bigger job.
00:32:59
Speaker
You are doing a lot more things. You are spending a lot more hats. You also have um upfront costs yeah that you're going to have to cover yourself. So like for editorial um artwork, because you know, nowadays if you need to be basically doing,
00:33:12
Speaker
doing all of the same things as a, um, traditional publisher would do, yeah to sort of compete in that space because it's so competitive now, uh, indie publishing. So you're going to have to, you're going to want to get an editor in to look at your work. You're going to want to get a professional artist in, unless you're an artist, maybe, um, you're going to need to, you're new, you're now doing all the additional work of marketing publicity, unless you also want to pay a company or a person to come and do that for you as well. Yeah. I think, I mean, one of the biggest reasons that I think it could be the case that people find um a better route into fully kind of funding themselves and through self-publishing is simply because you are in complete control of your publication schedule.
00:33:57
Speaker
um Yeah. You are able to put out your books whenever you want. There's no, you know, a big reason for why you might not be able to get a book every year at your traditional publisher is just because they have a certain schedule and they can't have um their own books competing against each other. yeah When you're self-publishing, obviously there's no schedule to think about. There's no clashing with other books on your roster unless you are wildly prolific and you're you know writing multiple series at the same time. um But yeah,
00:34:29
Speaker
You can put so much out. You can do a much higher quantity of of output, which I think is is a huge reason for that. So yeah, the caveat, we're not saying self-publishing or indie publishing is easier or better. It is different.
00:34:42
Speaker
Yeah. But potentially, if you're looking to make this your full-time career, i think you have a lot more agency.
Self-Publishing vs. Traditional Publishing
00:34:53
Speaker
Yeah. what If you are indie or self-publishing. Yeah. You're not relying on other factors as often. Yeah, that makes so much sense.
00:35:00
Speaker
Yeah. But so far, as far as I know, i don't think anyone's really been able to crack kid lit self-publishing. Yeah. It's really tough. That's interesting observation. YA can work. I think people have people have proved that. But middle grade, because of yeah who the purchaser is versus who the consumer is, there's a lot of safety net kind of stuff involved with that. it's a Yeah.
00:35:27
Speaker
it's a tough nut to crack i don't think anyone's actually figured that out yet yeah the only one i can think of that we've had in at right mental before to talk to us is um karen inglis um she has her own wikipedia page and everything and she is like famously a self-published children's author um so she's mostly just like middle grade and then younger but as you say just because i can think of one doesn't mean it's the rule That is the only one I can think of.
00:35:51
Speaker
um And she does very well, but she she treats it like a business, you know, like every good self-published author does. Yeah, exactly. So if you speak to her, it's like speaking to a traditional publisher, to be honest. She knows exactly what she's doing and she does it very well.
00:36:06
Speaker
Yes. I guess the difference being obviously upfront costs considered you, you know, there's a lot of work, everyone who I've spoken to who has successfully self-published has put in so much, um, like research and prep time to kind of learn how all the things work it in the same way that you're saying speaking to us kind of like speaking to a traditional publisher. yeah Yes. But you're speaking to a traditional publisher who is entire focus is on one author and one book yeah and that's a that can be a big difference yeah especially brand wise you know she's spending all that time and energy on herself and her product and that's great so you know obviously her brand is very strong so when she released a new book it does well yeah
00:36:51
Speaker
Yeah. And. Naomi will like this. When I spoke to you a while ago, I spoke to a really successful indie published author called Barry Hutchinson, who most people will know as J.D. Kirk, bestselling crime and thriller writer.
00:37:09
Speaker
But he, we talked quite in depth about this. um It was really interesting chat actually. and And he went quite granular with it because I was sort of asking like, well, you know, let's give me, give me bit more detail about it. And he loves, because he was originally traditionally published.
00:37:23
Speaker
He also used to do children's books. Um, and he, I think it was the the final straw for him because he had like a multi book contract. He has quite a few children's books as Barry Hutchison and then different name JD Kirk for his, his adult um crime stuff.
00:37:39
Speaker
I think the final straw for him with the children's books, uh, was, I think he was with Harper Collins and. uh, when one of his novels came out, it was on the same day as one of David Walliams is, and they didn't so much as tweet yeah about his novel.
00:37:55
Speaker
Meanwhile, their whole Twitter page was like banners of all the David Williams stuff. as i That was when he was like, I think I'm done with this. Yeah, that is really frustrating as well. You see it happen as well when you've got friends that say, it's my publication day, they look out for the tweet to share or whatever it may be. And then, yes, you never comes. And you don't even get a tweet, though. That sucks.
00:38:19
Speaker
yeahs Yeah, that's nice. But he was talking about, um getting back onto what I was saying, he was talking about the power of controlling or just having his own data. yeah So he literally gets like, through indie publishing, whatever platform you do it on, you're able to see exactly like how many books you're selling, where they are selling, when you're selling them, like even down to like time of day and stuff. And then this is like a simple kind of um interpretation of what you can do with this you can obviously go super deep in this but like he's able to use that data to figure out what is working in terms of his marketing and publishing you know i think the example he gave was that and he tries all sorts of things and i think you have to as a as a if you're indie publishing you just need to you basically try everything and see what works and then go harder on that and pull back on other things
00:39:09
Speaker
He said he found, um I think he he said he found doing like podcasts and interviews with like magazines and things would often give him a bump in sales in the in the following like week or two. Whereas he he would like watch this data and do like Twitter competitions and said there was basically zero impact. Like sales did not increase. People just like liked, shared, followed. And if they didn't win, they didn't go and get the book.
00:39:35
Speaker
yeah i mean like i said super service level but having that data can be such a huge like help to to an author oh yeah yeah definitely love what would you do with it now mean if you had access to like all of that data what i would make so many graphs Okay. i understand you would make graphs. What would you leverage that data to do? So I'd be looking at what where where sales were, because I'd be obviously be interested in where sales where it came from. so ah are they online? Are they in shop um for for the first instance? And if they're online, um does that track back to something that happened that week? Like, did I tweet something? Did I put something on Instagram that generated a bunch of sales? What did I tweet? What did I post? Okay, I'll go a look back at that.
00:40:19
Speaker
Is that something I can replicate? Can I replicate that data that happened? Can I, see a pattern here emerging people obviously like this type of content and that encourages them to go and buy my book that kind of thing i would just really like to see who and you know if it all happens in december yeah and if it all happens in december then it's like okay it's christmas i'm not going to read too much into that if it happened like you know march or something i'd be like why march why specifically that month what happened in that month to generate these sales i need to know okay right if you and if you were to find like doing let's say doing a podcast really bumped your sales would you then be like right i'm going to email all the podcast people i'm going to be like i want to come on your podcast yeah and just see if you can replicate it and then you know that you've got something that's winning and then you keep doing that thing you keep generating sales yeah fine happen that's what you mean yeah
00:41:12
Speaker
Yeah. Or I mean, in some ways, I guess it's more useful to know what's absolutely not working and what you're wasting your energy. Exactly. and also like if you did post something that you were like, I really hope this works. um Or like exactly you went on a podcast or you had an article in a newspaper and you were like, I want to see, I'm really hoping that this encourages sales. And then you could actually see, no, it didn't. And then, you know, not, not what to do or what, what to bother with, like you're saying.
00:41:37
Speaker
Yeah. I mean, I get it. Data is very useful. And your when you're traditionally published, you are unlikely to get that data on ah on the the same sort of firsthand level.
00:41:51
Speaker
But what annoys me most is that this data is available. And um yeah and just, I don't believe... that a publisher really looks at it or if they do they only look at it for certain titles um so they'll probably only pay attention to it to the ones that they paid a six-figure advance to um and then they'll look back at their marketing uh strategy and see and to see what worked whereas like for the books that are probably mid-list or less than mid-list they don't pay attention to that um and that
00:42:26
Speaker
is the information that could actually really benefit just being given to the author of those books, because they're probably going to be the ones who are championing themselves anyway. So why not just give them the data? It's a good question because you you have to assume the reason that it's not always like deep dived into is because a lot of these publishers, the, you know, the marketing manager is juggling 10 plus books at any one time. It's very time consuming yeah to go into the granular data for each one. Exactly.
00:42:59
Speaker
They're also, um and this is something i was talking to Eleanor Pilcher recently, and she said um she used to be a book marketer. Well, she's still a book marketer, but she also has a book coming out, irrelevant.
00:43:12
Speaker
But she was saying, yeah, there's a big difference between um publicizing and marketing the book versus the author. And she does you know she does freelance publicity and marketing. Most of the time she does that.
00:43:28
Speaker
It's with indie authors, but she does also do it with traditionally published authors. So they also have their own marketing coming out. but which So I asked, like well, if they are you just working in tandem with them? Are you just kind of like doubling down on that? and And she said not. Usually, most of the time, she's either being hired before the book comes out,
00:43:44
Speaker
or like as the book comes out and what she's mainly focusing on is actually not the book as the author she's focusing on building the author as a brand um so when when you when you bring it back to what you're talking about with like the data and the granularity of that they are trying to sell the book specifically the you kind of like promoting that and and promoting at different times is more of a author brand thing i think obviously it will it will increase sales in theory, but like that's publicity where you are kind of being more present as ah as an author. And I think generally a publisher focuses on marketing and publicizing the book over the author. Does that make sense?
00:44:29
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah, it does. Sadly. yes It does make sense. And I i get that. um I guess when I try and do marketing things myself, I do try and promote my actual book too.
00:44:47
Speaker
and I guess probably because I don't think I'm very interesting as person. So my book is what makes me special. Please buy my book. burn so But I guess by by you doing it yourself, you are also promoting yourself the author.
00:45:02
Speaker
Yeah, hear what you're saying. Thanks. It's just frustrating. like I'm sure there's logical reasons for all the various reasons that these things aren't shared and it's not easy. And then you hear about publishers um and people who are under, I believe it's Penguin US. I am not within this inner circle. So this is secondhand knowledge. But they say that they do get access to things like Nielsen Index, which is not the be all and end all.
00:45:26
Speaker
It is not like they get, but they get some like till sales figures and they'll have some more information and it's just like a login portal and they can go and have a look. And of course some of them choose not to look because they don't want to Yeah. So I hear like there are places that are giving more information. So there must be some logical reason because all of these publishers haven't gone bankrupt. So they they must have logic behind why they would not share that information. But I would, I would like to know the logic.
00:45:52
Speaker
I got told it's because of a privacy thing. So I don't know if it's like, Maybe. big GDPR related. i don't know. the worst. Yeah. i just, I don't, i don't, I don't know why privacy would come into it because I just literally just want book sold in this month. I don't care about anything else, but whatever.
00:46:10
Speaker
Also it's your, i don't know whose privacy it would be like. Well, that's it. It's a bunch of s companies. Yeah. And it's you. Surely you're just telling me if it's, if a book sold or not, like what, where's the privacy involved? I don't know, but I don't know. I felt like I couldn't really, don't know. didn't even want to burn the bridge just yet. So I couldn't. grill the room Tune in in a few years when Ryan is ready to burn the bridge.
00:46:39
Speaker
um Yeah, it just, it's it seems, I worry that it's one of those things which is just a sort of historic thing that hasn't gone away. um Because, it yeah, I don't, maybe someone can explain it to me. Maybe someone knows and they can message us and say, oh, this is why. Tell me why.
00:46:58
Speaker
Tell us why, because yeah, yeah please to me, it just seems like you'd be giving your author more tools yeah for them to promote the book, to sell more copies, to make you more money. Tell them what works. Absolutely.
00:47:09
Speaker
Yeah. you educators You can let them do what they want with it. Most authors, I imagine, will probably do very little with that data. But like there'll be some authors who really capitalize on it and will drive a bunch of sales for them.
00:47:20
Speaker
Yeah. No, I'd just be so interested. And they'll make a bunch of graphs. exactly Yeah. Graphs were are so helpful to you. They tell a story. I love you, girl.
00:47:29
Speaker
i love here Tricky. um I feel like we've veered so far off topic. know, sorry. Really? Yes. But it's all within the kind of sphere.
Earnings and Public Perception of Author Success
00:47:40
Speaker
i I would love for this to be an uplifting one, but it's very difficult to become a full-time author. Yeah. Yeah, really, really difficult. There was an article the book. have to stay that way. know, well, this is the problem because there was an article in the bookseller that said on average, I think it was about year ago, on average, each of us earns about ยฃ10,000 a year. It's less now. Is it less now? But how can you full-time on that? It's just ridiculous. Yeah, apparently it's between ยฃ6,000 ยฃ7,000 now. That's shocking. Wow.
00:48:10
Speaker
that shock Oh my goodness. Those were the figures I last read, probably even less as of now. You have to laugh really, Yeah.
00:48:21
Speaker
And it's definitely one of those industries where it's, and this is all industries, realistically, you know, when people talk about actors making millions it's like the actors who are making the millions they're like 20 of them that we keep seeing over and over again in every single movie yeah it's such a fraction of the industry and it's the same with yeah this is the misconception with why people think uh authors make lots of money yeah is because the only authors you see if you're outside of publishing yeah and you're not that big into literature the only authors you see are the mega successful ones yeah Yes, and there's so many false markers about being mega successful, aren't there? but Yes, and this is my point. So so when um I was working in that job and everyone knew was an author, they were like, um how's a book going, Amy? And i was like, oh, yeah, it's sold for TV and film. And they were like, why are you still here? you know when you say when you say things like that to people outside the an industry, they're like, you and you still you still have a day job. Do you really like your day job or something? it's like, no. Yeah.
00:49:19
Speaker
I don't want to be here. have to be careful how I say it, but no, I not. just love it here so much. I just love it. I come here for you. They're not paying me anymore. I'm just coming anywhere. I'm just here for free, just keeping me busy. Yeah.
00:49:37
Speaker
It's great. and And like anyone, you know, if you're an author, if you're, if you're, you've just signed a deal or you're, it's great to get film and TV rights, but yeah,
00:49:48
Speaker
but Just be aware a lot of books sell film and TV rights and it's a great little injection of cash yeah but it's something like one in ten of the optioned books ever make it to a screen of any kind.
00:50:03
Speaker
and It's very difficult. There's just also so many, I remember somebody said to me when I had a book, but I think it was my first book, and they said, oh, I knew you'd made it because i wanted to buy it in Waterstones. So i went on the website and did click and collect and like ordered it for a couple of days later went in and it was in Waterstones. And I'm like,
00:50:23
Speaker
you can click and collect any book. People are so impressed that the book is in Waterstones. They are so impressed. If that's your measure, I am going to be so poor. Because you can take any, even self-published books, if they're registered with a proper ISBN, as opposed to an AISBN, which is the, ASIM, which is the Amazon one. If you distribute it, I used IngramSpark when I was self-publishing. You can order any book into a bookshop, which is great. Don't get me wrong. And especially for self-published authors,
00:50:52
Speaker
brilliant because quite often we're on no returns so they then have to keep it in the shop especially waterstones where they can totally afford to keep it in the shop um but yeah like ah they just thought that was the most impressive thing ever and ah that was like the least impressive thing to me as somebody on the inside that's like the minimum i wasn't gonna say anything so was like cool thanks for ordering the book obviously that's great I had the same, you know, it's not just publishing. when i was um When I was at university, I was in a band and we had some of our music on Spotify. And sometimes I would tell people, oh yeah, you can hear our music on Spotify.
00:51:26
Speaker
And they would just be like, oh my god you're on spotify as if thats this meant that i was literally like i'm not part of that industry i think that's very impressive you see exactly let me tell you now it's as easy to put music on spotify as it is to just self-publish something on amazon You can literally just click a few buttons, pay a bit of money, and your media's now on Spotify.
00:51:48
Speaker
Still, though, when you say it out loud, it's like, oh, wow, that's major. Exactly, yeah. It's the problem, though. all smoke mirrors. yeah And then, again, it's that thing coming back to, like, do people not say they've got a second job because they feel like a failure? Do people not want to tell people at work because they're worried about those two worlds gliding getting told off at work? Do people... You know, just say, oh, thanks so much. When someone says, wow, your book was able to be all ordered into Waterstones and you're like, yeah, that's great. Our social media is full of us just saying like, yeah, wow, amazing. Look at this great, incredible thing I've just done. But really you're at behind the scenes. You might be thinking, oh, it'd be good if it was a bit more money or it'd be good if it was coming out sooner, whatever it may be. But of course, on social media, you're like happy, happy, paste on the smile. And so it could look like you're doing really, really well.
00:52:34
Speaker
Whereas actually financially, which is specifically what we're talking about, because you are doing well, it's so hard to sell a book. Do not like let yourself get beaten, browbeaten by this and hear this and go, I've sold a book and it wasn't it hasn't changed my life and I've not been able to quit my job. So I'm doing a really like crappy job. You're not doing crappy job. It's great sell a book. But we're talking about being a full-time author. i think there's lots of like markers that people outside think is successful. And on the inside, you know, is not necessarily the success you need to become a full-time author.
Genre Impact on Author Careers
00:53:04
Speaker
And there's also, and don't know if we touched on it really, but there's also a genre bias um to do with this as well. I i imagine, don't have the numbers, but based on my experience talking to authors and just looking at the industry, I would imagine there are more crime and thriller and romance authors who are full-time than a lot of other genres uh that's interesting yeah do you think it's a genre thing they just have the audience and readership for those genres is is so active and so voracious isn it that's why you know those are the two uh those and romanticy those are the two those are the genres that work really well on indie publishing And there's other genres that don't, won't have as much success when they're self published and published. And it's because they can publish like to a lot, a lot of the indie published authors who are doing really well at publishing two novels. Yeah. Some of them are doing three.
00:54:00
Speaker
I've spoken to a couple that are doing four, which is wild, but that's what they're doing. And that their readership, it eats that up. They love it. and yeah They love getting a ah book every quarter and being like, yes, I can just devour this up.
00:54:13
Speaker
And they can also, you know, you do other things that you, JD Cook has um his like mailing list and every now and again, he'll do like a short book. um which is like in universe of his of his books and stuff and it's like a bit of extra flavor which is just for the people on his mailing list yeah there's part of a community as well you wouldn't be allowed to do that with a traditional publisher you wouldn't be allowed to sort of publish something that was within the ip that you were creating as a sort of offhanded they i mean you could get permission and stuff but they'd be a bit funny about it
00:54:45
Speaker
yeah whereas he can just if he he if he just feels like ah one of the ones he was talking about was there's a in in one of the books there's a wedding and there's a wedding speech but it's something happens so so like your point of view character leaves so you never see the speech and then he just thought it'd be funny to like write the speech so he like so cool did a whole little chapter which was which was just put on his mailing list and it's just fun stuff like that just off the cuff you don't have to check with anyone you can just be like Yeah, I'm just going to do And you're going to build that brand so quickly as well by releasing those books so quickly and feeding your audience when they want to be fed. You will build that brand so quickly. Whereas when we're talking about the five book things, what we're also really talking about to become full time is your brand needs to be big enough that, you know, people are seeking out your social media to check what your next book is and they're excited and they'll buy it because you're one of their, as everyone calls it, like Insta buy authors. Yeah. because they love your brand and they know exactly what you're all about that takes time to build up in traditional publishing so you've got to survive if you like financially that's to that fifth book in order to build up that brand do do you guys have any insta by authors holly black
00:55:56
Speaker
Oh, really? Yeah. aver and Bridget Collins for you, Naomi. Bridget Collins, obviously. Yep, forgot about her. Sorry, Bridget. Well, both of you, Suzanne... Collins. Clark. it Suzanne Clark? Suzanne Collins. How dare you? have your games, yeah. Collins. Susanna Clark is she not the Piranesi lady yeah she's pretty good too oh yeah yeah she's good too yeah but mean you guys will buy anything Hunger Games right yeah yeah Naomi Gibson I'll buy her books oh thanks bye gotta pay you later Rebecca Kwong
00:56:32
Speaker
Yeah. I'm less so because I'm less fantasy oriented, but that's just because I'm pleb. Yeah, but you Yellowface. Yellowface is really good. I have pre-ordered card faces. Yeah, Yellowface is great. If she did like more thrillers, like, yeah, probably.
00:56:44
Speaker
Like, I don't know, Instabite, oh, I think it's tough as well when you get industry focus to think of like an insta by author because ah ah first of all i'm always terrified someone's going to cancelled any nanosecond and if i say someone's like my favorite author everyone's going to be like they are a terrible person let me list the ways and post like a 10 minute tiktok and i'll be like oh no i didn't realize i'm sorry um So I think it's tough. And also, I've just started, i think I've just started reading more in genre as such. And quite often, you know, authors might have a whole genre of books, but then also might pivot and do something else. So it's not like my mum absolutely loves Stephen King, but will not read his horror ones.
00:57:25
Speaker
She's not interested in those, but the other ones are Insta-bys, like Fairytale, The Institute, you know, all of his sort basically science fiction, fantasy, real world magical realism. Yeah, she'll Insta-bys those, but she hates horror, so she's not she's not reading those.
00:57:39
Speaker
That's interesting. So she's not technically Insta-bys, right? But it's interesting, like all the people we've mentioned are, you know, these are people who have been hugely successful. I mean, probably the the shortest career that we've mentioned there is, and you guys weren't even all on board it, Rebecca Kwong. But she's like maybe the most successful breakout author of the last like 10 years.
00:58:01
Speaker
Yeah, that's true. um yeah Everyone else we've talked about is like a legacy author who who's been successful for decades. while. yeah Yeah. mean, when did the first Hunger Games come out?
00:58:12
Speaker
Well, she had a very successful series before Hunger Games. Did she really? There you go. Yeah. Oh, gosh. I call myself a fan. Underland Chronicles. Can't remember. But yeah, it's like fantasy series that she had that was popular. Gregor the Overlander.
00:58:29
Speaker
Overlander. I said Underlander. Lol. Close. Overlander. Let's go with that. Outlander is something completely different. Yeah, very, very different. But yeah, she was already like doing quite well.
00:58:41
Speaker
So don't get me wrong, it as big as Hunger Games, but it was doing quite well. but but this just reinforces what we were just talking about it's like it's so difficult to become an author where I mean you might have a book that really like connects with someone and and yeah but so someone like Bella Mackey I think people loved um how to is it how to murder your family how to kill your family feel like there's a few that are similar I'm going to name the wrong one so I'm not going to play but like um my wife loved that novel so when she saw that Belly Mackey's new novel come out and it's not sequel she was like yeah when I want it yeah fine that's cool
00:59:23
Speaker
yeah so like but that's also like uh if you the first time you read a novel from anyone and this is the same for like a movie or like a tv show you know if the if you really really like the first one yeah you're gonna be like i'll try the second one but don't like the second one now it's no longer an instabar you know yeah that's the chance like and and i've definitely become more um hook and um like but story focused when I'm picking up books that I have done author focus. I've definitely done that one too many times where I've picked up another one and maybe the author's pivoted to a completely different genre or something like that. And I've thought, Oh yeah, I'm actually not sure if this person's like, I loved, um,
01:00:05
Speaker
Only Ever Yours by Louise O'Neill. And I picked up a couple of her follow ups and they're really well written, really good books, but nothing like Only Ever Yours. It's not the same. exactly Exactly. So they are excellent books. I enjoyed reading them and I'm glad I read them, but it wouldn't necessarily be as insta-by as if she'd stayed in that genre. do you see i mean?
01:00:26
Speaker
Which is another scary thing about the idea of becoming a full-time author. Cause it's great when someone, it, I guess, altruistically, I would, I want all authors and this applies to all creative things like musicians and and and stuff as well.
01:00:41
Speaker
I want authors to be able to be as successful as Rebecca Kwong and to be able to basically write in whatever genre they want and just change genre between books. I hope that everyone can get that. Cause what a great freedom to have. But at the same time, you know, just how us speaking about being a reader for a readership now, it's like you as an author should be, I guess, a little bit worried that if you're going to drastically change your style or your themes, that people are going to read your second book, third book or whatever it is. And then be like, oh, this isn't I liked the the first one and I wanted more of that. Yeah, that would worry me.
01:01:16
Speaker
And that's something, you know, if you want to become a full-time author, it's something you have to think about. And that's going back to the self-published authors, the indie authors that I've spoken to. They're so connected with their audience. They know exactly what their audience wants. And they're much more business savvy to the point where they're like, they, they're like, um, they find the perfect balance between creativity and like the business logistics of things. So they're like, I want to try this thing, but I need to, but I know I need to write this. This is what my audience wants. And this is, I'm treading the perfect line between that. That's how they, the really successful indie authors work. Do you think that's because they have the data? Yes, I absolutely think it's because they have pretty graphs. Because they have data issue. No, but I, it'd be so, because they can tell if they release something and like,
01:02:05
Speaker
if maybe it's like a slightly different take. ah So like like, well, you were just saying about Louise O'Neill, she wrote this kind of dystopian book and then she went on to write some quite contemporary fiction. um yeah It would be really interesting to compare the two in terms of numbers. And if you're an indie author, I'm sure you can do that. And so you can see this one was more successful, this one not so much. I'm going to keep writing in the other genre because that's more successful.
01:02:26
Speaker
You know, whereas I don't think a traditional publisher would necessarily tell you that, or maybe they would, but like a year down the line when they don't want any more books from you. Absolutely. No, a hundred percent. I was, literally, I watch um every week. There's this podcast that i watch on YouTube called um Lemonade Stand. It's just a sort of silly, but news politics, technology podcast, but they were literally saying in the most recent episode, um oh, last week's episode,
01:02:55
Speaker
didn't, um, do as well for us. It didn't get as, you know, didn't hit the algorithm as well. We didn't get as many views plays, whatever as most episodes. And like, you can translate that exactly into how YouTubers and content creators yeah do things like, yeah, if you're a YouTuber, you make videos and you monitor the success or failure of each of them. Yep. And if one thing is working, you lean into that. If something's not working, you move away from it. And that's, I think exactly, yeah, I think that's exactly what self-published authors are doing because they're also doing it at pace. So they're putting out books faster so they can get the data quicker. Yeah, exactly. And similar to us, we know our last season was way more, it hit home for way more people. So here we are. Yeah, yeah. Here we are, we are just spilling tea. Yeah.
01:03:44
Speaker
We follow the data because Naomi's here. I asked for a graph. I don't think it's been provided yet. Tell me a story. Like and subscribe everyone. Yes, please say that Naomi can make you graph. We'll share it with you. um Yeah, Naomi, I think you'd be great like man if you didn't want to do the content creation yourself, just managing content creators because it's just data. It's just data management and telling people what to turn up and what to turn down.
01:04:13
Speaker
Jamie, give me your graphs. I'll tell you what to do. I'll tell you who you're doing today. I'll little audience face up. Amazing. um Well, it's been a bit of a doom and gloom episode.
01:04:28
Speaker
But I think it's important to be honest about these things. I think there's too much of a, this whole season's about misconceptions. There's yeah too much of a misconception that about how these things work and the reality of becoming a full-time author. And I think it's good for us to talk about how difficult it is because it's extremely difficult and yeah very few people do it. I think if you have managed to get to a spot where you are an author and you have a part-time job, I think you're doing better than most. I think you're doing very, very well if you've got it down to a part-time job and being an author. Yeah, that's very good. And like, don't forget as well that as much as it's doom and gloom, if you just keep your head down and keep doing the work, putting the output, doing social media posts, writing the books and putting out the books, every time you post on socials, put out a book, et cetera, you've bought a lottery ticket and you never know if one of those takes off. And then you've got this back catalogue of solid work that you have kept your head down doing, then you have made it and you probably will be a full time author.
01:05:28
Speaker
Yes. Yeah. The more you have, the more like the bigger your winnings on that lottery ticket. Yes. If it if it does cash out. Definitely. Yeah, I think you it's an interesting career because yeah, the more you write, the more you put out there, the more you put yourself out there, the the higher potential you have for it to to kind of to blow up. And eventually yeah you have to imagine like a certain, there's a critical mass and it might be bigger than it used to be.
01:05:57
Speaker
But yeah, once you, once you, once something lands, once something really hits, everything else you've written is now also gonna get leveled up. Yeah. And just not forgetting that the whole point of being a full time. You ask people, the kids in schools, you say like, oh, I want to be a full time author. Why do you want to be full time author? So I can write because I enjoy writing. Don't forget the joy of writing i agree in the process because you're already doing that. Like don't put, put make yourself so stressing. You finally get there. You're full-time author and you sit down to write and you just forget the joy of it because you spend all that time stressing about being a full-time writer. You can write now. I know it's not all day and I'm sorry about that, but that half hour at five 30, that's still like that magical time that get write. So you'd you'd also be surprised how much less productive a lot of people I've spoken to
01:06:49
Speaker
once they've opened up their schedule, say they've moved from a full-time to part-time job and they like, they'd said, yeah, I i had to just make myself a routine. i had to like force myself to say discipline because I had all this time and without the kind of pressures, yes I was so much less incentivized to write. Yeah. Oh my God, the pressure. Yes, that's so true. Like every time I am really skint and I'm like looking for extra like freelance stuff or I know that like, you know, contracts are running out, et cetera. Oh, I write a really good book.
01:07:20
Speaker
contract's running out and it's on the line here we go is squeaky bum time and this really good book comes out and i'm like oh that's funny why couldn't i have done that when i was like comfortable and happy it's so true yeah yeah absolutely um well i think that about wraps it up unless you guys have anything else to add about the misconceptions of becoming a full-time author do not i All right, well, let's round it off.
01:07:48
Speaker
um Anything new you guys are reading, watching? I mean, we covered this last week. I don't know how much new stuff has come out, but what do you got? I'm watching House of the Dragon season two now. I decided, we decided to take a plunge and do season two. And actually season two is a lot better than season one. so I think because the final episode of, you know, when you, you speak to an editor an agent and they're like, yeah, so I think we should maybe cut the first three chapters. Yeah. yeah Maybe they should have cut like most of season one. I think so. And the first episode really feels like it's the beginning of so you know the show. watching yes The last episode, like everything actually starts happening.
01:08:29
Speaker
exactly and i didn't like that actually they changed the actors halfway through because you just had to like re-grapple with who everybody is and everybody seemed to have changed characters anyway even if they were different actors and it's just oh yeah to to be fair i get why they did i'd also didn't love that i was kind of like ah i just gotten used to all these actors yeah a bit on the fence about it yeah Yeah, I understand that.
01:08:51
Speaker
But young, what's her name? Rhaenyra? Oh yeah. Young Rhaenyra. She's about to be Supergirl. Is she really? That's cool. She is, yeah.
01:09:02
Speaker
yeah Australia's own. Australia's She is cool, isn't she? Yeah. ah What was going to say? Oh yeah, no spoilers, but people are not loving Last of Us Season 2, Melissa. Yeah.
01:09:15
Speaker
They're getting cross aren't they? Well i I was surprised to hear this. It was my friends were talking to me and they were like are you still watching it? i was I didn't love the last episode and i was like what? I'm loving it. And then I was like am I biased because I've played the game?
01:09:29
Speaker
ah I think could be that but then also i think the format's different like last time it was like a very clear format of a road trip between like this dad daughter duo and each episode almost had like a mini story of people they met on the road trip and I feel like this one's more like of an overarching plot I think people are just getting a bit stressed especially after to no spoilers but episode two has like one very slightly sad moment I think some people got bit stressed well people like that one though that's the highest rated episode because that's when people stop watching i think i know what happens in season two i think i saw a tick tock on uh yeah yeah and i'd be amazed hasn't been spoiled but yeah i did love seeing all the all the i saw a bunch of instagram reels saying like how did the gamers manage to keep this to themselves and not spoil this for us and i was like i was proud of us because they don't follow us on online don't They were just ignoring us. ah then
01:10:30
Speaker
Yeah, that is a big... Yeah, I mean, I'm still liking it. I thought this this week's episode was really good as well. Yeah, I'm still really enjoying it. um I think since last time, I've now watched Thunderbolts. That was good. a fit Dude, I watched Thunderbolts. I thought it was so good. It's good, isn't it?
01:10:45
Speaker
It's like OG. I had no expectations. No, OG Marvel Universe. It's pretty it's pretty good. enjoyed that. thought it was really good. Yeah. But that's... but you know based on what i thought it was going to be um i was so pleasantly surprised by it yeah it was emotional it was really interesting mental health like yes yes very good like serious topics and not just doing it like a gag joke after they talked about something serious and i was like wow updated really grown up yeah very good avengers for grown-ups that's good i am now reading a physical book as well i don't know why i've started doing this i because ah my brain is already mush um so i started reading um finally the inheritance games i chance like which i don't even understand how i've not read them but i haven't also i want to read the naturals that's supposed to be good but it's because was reading and i'm sure now everyone that it seems to be everywhere now i mentioned uh danny francis silver elite last time yes and it's like It's all over the internet because ah the name Danny Francis, we're pretty sure he's a pseudonym and everyone's trying to track down the author. People are saying, have AI written it? And like to burst the bubble and give my incredibly professional opinion on this hot topic. um
01:12:00
Speaker
No, I just think it's just like a chill book someone wrote and I think they just don't. want to say who they are and that's fair enough but what annoys me though causing issues yeah what annoys me is the fact that people are trying to hunt her down so they can tell her how much they disliked her book and i'm like good for you staying anonymous yeah that's wild yeah like first of all why should she care you know what danny france is crying to your 10 pound note she cares like Oh my God. It's awful. It is bad. Like just let, let Danny Francis be anonymous. Enjoy the book. Do not enjoy the book by the book. Do not buy the book.
01:12:32
Speaker
But just do you do you guys, you just be readers. that That's absolutely fine.
Pop Culture Commentary and Recommendations
01:12:37
Speaker
Um, so yes. Interesting. Interesting. After I literally mentioned it, cause I saw it like on an Amazon advert last time. And now it's like, I feel like it's lit up the internet.
01:12:44
Speaker
i'm like oh i mentioned that last time i wasn't sure if it was just my tiktok algorithm because i watched one and then suddenly i got inundated but i think it is actually oh she likes drama yeah basically um i'm still reading jarber crombie funnily enough i saw a funny twitter drama that he was tangentially um involved in had nothing to do with him there was this like multi-thread um tirade that someone had posted ah ah complaining about the customer service at Abercrombie and Fitch and for some reason he'd been tagged in it so he was he was replying we'll do better I promise
01:13:27
Speaker
you'll do better i promise Yeah, that's funny. um And I haven't started watching anything yet. I'm about to start because it's I think it's finished now or there's it's finishing next week.
01:13:39
Speaker
I'm about to start season two because, oh my God, I hear it's even better than season one. Yeah, I'm really excited to start. um anyone who's who's not watched and or who's listening if you're a star wars fan it is an absolute must it's been a difficult decade for us as star wars fans um and or is so good honestly give it a watch i rate be honest i rate it so highly that i have even recommended it to my friends who are not interested at all in star wars oh no I agree I'm not a huge Star Wars fan and it's my favourite Star Wars property it's standn I really like it it might be the best Star Wars thing what's Skeleton Crew like because I wanted to watch that but then we can Disney it's for kids oh right I heard it's good though i started watching it and I was like oh this is this is the Goonies i it's got Jude Law in right
01:14:35
Speaker
It does have a dude long in it. That was the only reason i wanted to watch it, to be honest. Naomi's like, he's not for kids. what he is now um yeah no i think it got good reviews um ah yeah i started watching it i think i i was still a bit sore after the acolyte which i gave up on yeah okay i was like that i can't keep watching this as much as i like the cast i can't because it was what's his name from uh the good place and i love him but
01:15:07
Speaker
yeah don't know but and it was the freaking best thing ever and i'm excited to just binge season two Yeah, you do not have to know anything about Star Wars to watch it because I knew very little about Star Wars watching it and just found it a really interesting, like, it's like Game of Thrones in space political show. Yeah, it's like a sci-fi thriller. Yeah, it's really good.
01:15:28
Speaker
Game of Thrones in space, that's my... Are there space dragons? I mean, it's not not space dragon. Yeah. I honestly think it has more world building than any other Star Wars thing yeah about the universe. So good. So they made it really gritty. And not a lightsaber in sight.
01:15:47
Speaker
Yeah, is quite gritty. Not a lightsaber sight. It's super, did you say pretty or gritty? Gritty. Gritty, super gritty. dave Someone sent this to me. Season two, they filmed in ah London. Oh, what's it called?
01:16:02
Speaker
They filmed in that estate that's in central London, which is like so gray and gothic. And I was like, oh my God, it's perfect. It's so perfect. And they barely changed it.
01:16:13
Speaker
Yeah, yeah. So good. Yeah, it's great. Recommend.
Episode Takeaways and Listener Participation
01:16:17
Speaker
It's great, Jo. um So if you want to take anything away from this episode, it's ah it's difficult to become a full-time author and Andor is great and you should watch it. And those two things are definitely related. Yes. Yes, indeed.
01:16:31
Speaker
um Awesome. As we mentioned before, we would love to hear from um everyone listening to this. Send us your your questions. Send us your anecdotes that you've experienced in publishing. We can we talk about them completely anonymously. That would be great. And also, yes, if anyone does know why publishers don't give the data to authors about where and when their books are selling, please let us know. We'd love to know. It seems like a win-win for everyone.
01:17:01
Speaker
um Yes. Thank you. We'd appreciate it greatly. um yeah And we'll catch you next week. Bye-bye.
01:17:10
Speaker
Thanks for putting up with our nonsense for another episode. To stay tuned to everything we're up to, you can follow the podcast on all socials at The Chosen Tropes. Follow Melissa at Meliva, Naomi at Naomi G. Writes, and Jamie at Jamie X. Greenwood.
01:17:23
Speaker
Don't forget to check out Naomi and Melissa's books, as well as the Right and Wrong podcast. Thanks again, and we'll see you on the next trope.