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S3.E8 - Cosy Crime & Fantasy
101 Plays8 months ago
Jamie and Melissa are loving the rise of cosy genres at the moment and get into some really fun tropes in this one, whilst Naomi wrestles with how wholesome it all is!
- Naomi Gibson, author of Every Line of You, Game Over Girl
- Melissa Welliver, author of The Undying Tower, My Love Life and the Apocalypse, Soulmates and Other Ways to Die
- Jamie Greenwood, creator & host of the Write and Wrong Podcast
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Transcript
Exploring Toxic Characters and Relationships in Cozy Genres
00:00:00
Speaker
Do you reckon Christian Grey is different characters? Whoa! You had it here first. I finished it. After every episode was like, oh my gosh, I'm so angry at these toxic characters, like she'll have more food in my mouth, press next episode, because I loved it, but obviously I hate it. This is so much fun, because this is my Malfoy Hermione family. Yes! She shouldn't have done that. I'm trying to make Neville happen. It's too wholesome.
00:00:28
Speaker
I have a title title. Is it just the name of the group? I have to introduce what we're doing. I think we've talked about these before. I'll allow. Make it look pro.
The Rise of Cozy Crime and Fantasy Genres
00:00:42
Speaker
We're doing Cozy Crime slash Cozy Fantasy. It's basically Cozy. Yeah. But the real two that I think have popped off recently are Cozy Crime and Cozy Fantasy and that's because of
00:00:56
Speaker
Thursday Murder Club obviously, and Legends and Lattes, which essentially made these genres, these sort of subgenres suddenly catapulted to, in the case of crime, I feel like Thursday Murder Club is killing it constantly all the time. And I've spoken to so many people about Legends and Lattes as well, which I think originally was self-published. It was, yeah.
00:01:20
Speaker
Yeah, amazing. Very cool. Love that. Anyway, we've all picked fun and interesting tropes within this genre. And I think the best place to start is with Naomi's trope. Naomi, what did you pick?
00:01:39
Speaker
for me.
Naomi's Take on Cozy Genres and the Amateur Sleuth Trope
00:01:40
Speaker
Okay. Well, I'm going to caveat this, uh, quite heavily by saying I really struggled. Um, cause I, I don't read cozy stuff. Um, sorry. Um, do not like to feel comfortable while reading hardcore psychology fiction. Um, so I, I struggled with this, but I decided to go for a,
00:02:06
Speaker
a character type trope because those are my favourite. So I've gone for the amateur sleuth and I was looking into this because I think I actually probably read a lot more of it than I actually realised or definitely watch a lot more of it than I actually realised.
00:02:23
Speaker
But for those of you who don't know, an amateur sleuth is someone who has no formal connection to law enforcement, but they solve crime and they probably don't get paid for it, which is the important distinction I realized when you're just looking at this trope because it rules out a lot of well-known detectives. So I was thinking, oh, Sherlock Holmes, he's not actually part of the police force, but no, he gets paid for it. Right. Because he's like,
00:02:53
Speaker
I think he turns himself as a consulting detective or something along those lines, so that is his main job. So whilst he's not like Scotland Yard or whatever, he is paid for it. And he's like a private detective as well, right? He solves crimes and cold cases for the public and gets paid, right? Yeah, he is paid.
00:03:10
Speaker
I know. So I was like, all right, well, who else has left? So a lot of the time this could be somebody like a retired detective, which would bring in your Poirot type character. But usually they're like an everyman type of character. So someone who's very normal in every day, like probably have like a job, a family or whatever.
00:03:34
Speaker
but they're quite intelligent and observant enough to read clues and evidence competently. And I was trying to think of an example of where I've seen this without looking it up online. And then I was like, obviously went to check that I was correct and it was that. So someone who came to mind for me was a character from one of my favourite movies, A Simple Favour. Have you guys seen that?
00:04:08
Speaker
So the main character, Stephanie, she is a craft vlogger.
00:04:14
Speaker
And it's kind of just her and her son. She's kind of just like a single mum. She's very normal, very everyday. And her main job is like she just vlogs
Why Amateur Sleuths Resonate with Audiences
00:04:23
Speaker
like craft and cooking and recipes and stuff. And she befriends this new mum at school, at the school her son attends.
00:04:30
Speaker
And the woman goes missing, so Blake Lively goes missing. And the character Stephanie, she starts to dig into Blake Lively's disappearance and she uses her vlogger platform to document her discoveries. And when the case is solved, she basically becomes this like part-time crime solver and her platform is now all about like solving crime and cosy crime stuff. I liked that example in particular because
00:04:56
Speaker
she fits it so, so perfectly. She's such an everyman. She's just a single mum doing her best, right, trying to raise her son. And I think it's important as well that she didn't actually go looking for trouble. It just kind of found her. And she's intelligent, she's quite comedic, and she's like quietly attractive. And I think
00:05:19
Speaker
She's like the perfect self insertion for a viewer or reader. I was thinking about why this trope is so popular and I think it's just this idea that
00:05:30
Speaker
Amethyst Loose are the everyman turning extraordinary. So they can be a superhero, but also like, in like a really normal way. And who, you know, who doesn't like that? Who doesn't want to believe that they can do these things too and they see someone just like me doing it and they think, Oh, I can do that too, you know? And I think that's why it's really popular. So that was what I dug into this week.
00:05:57
Speaker
Yeah, I think the relatability is definitely something that's fun about it. Yeah. And helps make it cozy too, I think. Like part of the coziness is I'm wrapped in a burrito blanket reading this book on my Kindle using the remote control so I don't even have to move my hands. And yeah, I can pretend that I am in this amateur sleuth
Modern Interpretations of the Amateur Sleuth
00:06:19
Speaker
mode. So I think that weirdly adds to the coziness how relatable they make the main character. Yeah, for sure.
00:06:25
Speaker
Yeah. I was thinking of, did you guys ever watch Veronica Mars? I had that written down. Yeah. But I've never actually watched it. She was a teenager. She's like basically the modern Nancy Drew, right? Yeah, it was really Nancy Drew coded. I had Father Brown as well. Oh, I didn't know that one.
00:06:46
Speaker
He's a Catholic priest, I think. In his spare time, he's just like out solving murders. Why not? Yeah, I guess because he's like an authority figure within the community, like the local community. So I look to him for guidance and then he's like, well, I guess I'm going to have to solve this murder.
00:07:06
Speaker
Yeah, I thought of, I was trying to think outside the box and like not look it up online. And I came up with Liam Neeson in Taken. Because he's like, he's like a retired CIA agent. So he's not actually a police and he's not actually like a detective. He just goes hunting for his traffic daughter and like solves the crime and stuff. So it's not
00:07:29
Speaker
It's not like Cozy because it's kind of an action movie. It doesn't feel like super cozy taken. It's not my favourite Cozy life. You've got to think outside the box. Okay, join me outside.
00:07:44
Speaker
But actually, his character, you know, he has these background skills, he's retired, but he's not done them for a while and he suddenly goes off on this adventure. You mean he has a very specific set of skills? I was trying not to cheat and look it up on TV Tropes. Well, the obvious one that comes to me is Only Murders in the Building. Oh, that's so cosy. Yeah.
00:08:12
Speaker
And they're obviously all amateurs. They don't get paid. None of them really know anything about crime. But it's funny because it's kind of like what you were mentioning with the Blake Lively and Anna Kendrick movie, where she's like a blogger, but they're like, oh, we're going to start a crime podcast. Because they're all just fans of crime podcasts. I think that's literally their only qualification.
Suspension of Disbelief in Cozy Mysteries
00:08:34
Speaker
They bond over that. True crime.
00:08:36
Speaker
Two crime. Two crime has just like gone up in popularity so much. Yeah, that's definitely added to the cozy amateur detective vibe, right? Yeah. Couch detectives. Yeah. Could anything be cozier than being a couch detective? Solving murder from your couch.
00:08:56
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I think this is a good one for you Naomi, because whilst like cozy is not really your scene, I could see you writing an amateur sleuth into one of your, it would be darker and more twisty, but I could definitely see you putting an amateur sleuth into one of your newer novels at some point. Yeah. It's definitely piqued my interest. I think that idea of the every man being extraordinary. I quite like that idea. Yeah. What about you guys? Would you guys write this?
00:09:28
Speaker
I think I'd quite like to. I don't know. I quite like the juxtaposition of this, but this in itself perhaps does not make it cozy as such with Taken. I like the juxtaposition of a really average person in high stakes situations.
00:09:44
Speaker
Obviously with Cozy, by nature of it, it's low stakes, right? So I'm not sure if I could write it all. That's the whole point of Cozy. I like reading them actually and like watching them and stuff, but with it all being Cozy, I'm not sure. But I do like the idea of having a very Cozy sweet main character doing hellish things. That sounds quite fun. Injecting some Cozy. Yeah, a level of Cozy. Yeah.
00:10:08
Speaker
I do think the tricky thing, if you're trying to write this, is justifying why the responsibility of solving the crime has fallen on the shoulders of this seemingly every person. Why is this being ignored by whatever the law enforcement is in that area? Yeah.
00:10:29
Speaker
I think that's done well in only motors in the building because I think in season one at least they write it off as a suicide and then the three of them are like I don't think this is and they tried yeah and the police like no case is closed yeah so it's like they have they kind of have to do it but then I was thinking of miss Marple.
00:10:49
Speaker
Do you guys ever watch Miss Marple? Very cozy. Very cozy. She's just a sort of sweet unassuming old lady who the police don't take seriously and she kind of just potters about. And then that one and also Agatha Christie with... Yeah. That is Agatha Christie. Also, Murder She Wrote, I was thinking. Murder She Wrote, yeah. Very similar character, very similar energy.
00:11:15
Speaker
But for me, I'm like, you haven't fully justified it. And I know those are from a different time, but it takes a lot of suspension of belief for me to be like, so you're just going to let this woman walk around your crime scene and start talking to the witnesses and stuff. It's like she might be unassuming and sweet, but like, come on, you can't just be doing that. She could be the murderer.
The Found Family Trope Across Genres
00:11:43
Speaker
Exactly. She's as likely to be the murderer as she is to be the detective. She's unreliable. But she's the murderer. What a concept.
00:11:58
Speaker
And we mentioned Nancy Drew earlier, like Veronica Mars. That one, I think it's even more unbelievable because she's like the police kind of dismiss her and kind of let her do whatever they want because she's she's just a kid or like they're both just kids. But I'm like, isn't that even more of a stretch? Because I'm pretty sure Nancy Drew investigates homicides sometimes. And I'm like, you shouldn't be letting this child wander around your murder scene.
00:12:25
Speaker
Yeah, that's fine. You know, sometimes you've got to let kids learn on their own, and you'll be such a helicopter parent. That's a good emergency. What's the harm in seeing a few dead bodies here or there? It's all good. What is the harm, Jamie? What is the harm? Yeah, sorry, my bad. I'll bear that in mind if I become a parent one day, and it's like, you know what?
00:12:47
Speaker
Oh, there's some yellow tape over there. Quick, pull over. Let's go have a look. There's been a car accident here. Pull over. We have to inspect it. Yeah, I don't know about that.
00:13:04
Speaker
It's, yeah, it's a fun and it's absolute classic trope though. And beyond cosy crime, like this, you get this in all sorts of crime as well. You can be like, because this works in like grittier stuff too.
00:13:19
Speaker
Yeah, I think it brings like a really nice, like I know I was joking about taking bringing level coziness, but I do actually think, especially because this is a trope that yes, we have seen in various iterations, but is about to become really big already has a couple of really big examples. But I think so many have been picked up that aren't even out yet. We're like almost on the cusp of it. I do think it's nice to bring a cozy element to something that's otherwise really horrifying or scary. I think it works really well. Yeah, for sure.
00:13:49
Speaker
Did you guys ever see Prisoners, the movie with Hugh Jackman, Jake Gyllenhaal? No, I've not. With The Huge Jacked Man, I've not seen this. Yes, The Huge Jacked Man and Jake Gyllenhaal. It's a really good film, but Hugh Jackman's, one of his children gets abducted.
00:14:07
Speaker
And then he, so he's the kind of grieving parent, but he, the, Jake Gyllenhaal, who's the detective, he doesn't feel like he's doing enough. So they kind of, you kind of follow them both separately, but Jake Gyllenhaal is doing things kind of the police way. And he's, he's basically pursuing his own kind of vigilante investigation. So that's like a really gritty version of this without going as far as Taken. Yes. Taken doesn't go that far, Jamie.
00:14:36
Speaker
Oh, okay. Sorry. We must have watched different movies. It's cozy. You got that AGA at the end. Exactly. He's just a dad trying to get his kid back. That's so cozy. It's very cozy. Have you got anything else to add to this?
00:15:02
Speaker
No, I think that's it really. We covered Veronica Mars and Liam Neeson. We covered all the coziness. We covered it. Naomi's like, get me out of it. Get me back on the psychological thrillers. It's too wholesome next. Melissa, what did you pick?
00:15:19
Speaker
So I picked Found Family, which, yeah, I actually thought of it myself without cheating and going online and checking it tropes, which I was really proud of myself. I know, did all my work all by myself. And yeah, what I really like about it is, I mean, Found Family is something that's in loads and loads and loads of genres. Just to clarify, I do realize this, like Found Family is incredibly popular, especially in like YA,
00:15:45
Speaker
and especially in like post-apocalyptic which is what I write so I understand that I maybe may seem like I'm cheating by picking this however. I do think it's in every cosy thing that I read about or see so yeah just taking like the two big examples of we were talking about with the Richard Osman books Bullet that missed etc and also in the fantasy realm talking about legends and lattes
00:16:12
Speaker
and bookshops and bone dust. But all of those have found families. So like in the Richard Osman books, arguably, it's the people in the home who maybe have lost touch with their own families. There's a reason like they're sort of separated a little bit from their own families, maybe. And they all come together because they choose each other, especially because they have this shared passion for something. Actually, only minutes in the building also kind of covers that they're like different generations, but they're all coming together.
00:16:37
Speaker
because they all have this shared passion for something, right? And they're all in the same place at the same time. And I just think it does bring a really cozy element because it's always the best written ones are the ones where I want to be friends with that person or I want them to be my surrogate dad. Like that's what I want. Like, love you dad. Obviously I have a really nice dad, but if I could have a surrogate dad.
00:16:57
Speaker
It'd be really cool to have Darryl Dixon, I'm just saying. I don't know, I feel like it brings a cozy element even to scary things like I was just talking about previously. So like in The Walking Dead, there's loads of found family moments where they do try and give it an uplifting part in what is otherwise quite a scary show and obviously has body horror elements, etc.
00:17:19
Speaker
Yeah, there's a joke that Darryl Dixon people on the internet call him Darryl Dixon because he just acquires children, like from various places. And it's just like really wholesome. And there is just something super wholesome about seeing a family just like Naomi said we're taking. But there is something really wholesome about seeing a family like come together and like support each other even in a difficult time. Obviously with Cozy, so like taking
00:17:44
Speaker
uh legends and lattes um the sort of found family which i think is quite a common one is like ex-criminals ex-thieves this is a really common one i found and they kind of make a family in the same way that they're really dramatic about it in the fast of the furious like it's family
00:18:01
Speaker
It feels like this very dramatic, like we have made a family for the fact that we just have like, you know, mutual proliferation of each other, like we can just destroy each other with the secrets that we know about each other. But also now we love each other. And it does, it brings like a wholesome, cozy vibe. So if you haven't read like Legends and Latos, which I feel like everyone has, but
00:18:17
Speaker
Um, it's about, um, they're not criminals are they? They used to, they used to be like going around. She used to be gone legit. She used to go around it. Yeah. She's gone legit. And she wants to open a coffee shop and, um, the other characters are, I feel like some of the other characters are that come in. Some criminals in it, but the main one, the chef isn't, I don't think.
00:18:41
Speaker
No, but the people that she used to hang out, no, no. That's part of the problem though, isn't it? She's trying to fit into this new, cosy world. But she was an adventurer. I think in that, given that we know it's basically off-brand Dungeons and Dragons, adventurers are accepted as not criminals, generally. Just opportunists.
00:19:03
Speaker
Yeah, exactly. Yeah. It's not a crime if there's opportunity, but there's opportunities. It's fine. Don't worry about it. Yeah. So like, I feel like it works that way. I mean, obviously the whole thing is cozy in that. So you've also got like coffee shops or anything more cozy in the coffee shop, obviously. But I do think that the found family brings something to it. I had a weird one for found family that again is super high stakes and not cozy, but I do think it brings lighthearted, cozy relief moments. It's Suicide Squad.
00:19:33
Speaker
So like in Suicide Squad, they're like a found family of criminals. Which one? Oh, that's a good question. I mean, both of them have the same sort of... The good ones. Yeah. Good ones. Okay. I mean, they both have the same plot, which is it's a bunch of crims who are given the opportunity to sort of make it up to society slash get out of prison earlier, whichever film you're watching.
00:19:57
Speaker
And they have, you know, oh, they've been forced into it because they have a bomb in their necks that could go off and blow their heads off if they break the rules. But also, yes, false processes. Exactly. So like, I feel like that does bring a cozy element to it. I like seeing a load of characters that wouldn't necessarily normally come together, have to come together and create their own sort of family. And I just do feel like it's really cozy, even in stuff that isn't as cozy. I think it brings a nice cozy element to it.
00:20:23
Speaker
Well, I mean, on that same trend, I think he's specifically the first one of the Avengers movies. Yeah. Because in that first one, when the kind of core group get together, there's only a couple of them actually like each other. Yeah. When they first kind of, because they don't even know each other. So you do get that fun found family thing, which then concludes with them all eating shawarma.
00:20:45
Speaker
Yes. And there's arguments and that makes it fun because it's like a real family because nobody's family is perfect and everyone gets on. And if you say that, you're a liar. So there's always like a little bit of like there's a sibling rivalry type stuff. There's always someone that steps into more maternal or paternal roles. Like I just love it. I just think I do just think it's so cozy. Like it just gives me a warm fuzzy feeling. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I agree. Again, only murders in the building. Yeah. Yeah. A hundred percent this. Yeah. Yeah. A hundred percent.
00:21:14
Speaker
You know what I realize is it's, and this seems obvious now, but it's like, obviously it works really nicely when the characters are like lonely or isolated. Yeah. So in Legends and Lattes, they're all kind of loners. When you were saying like, it's always like a ragtag group because they're all for some reason or other, they've been like exiled or they don't have any friends or they've isolated themselves or something. But I realize Legends and Lattes is an interesting one actually.
00:21:38
Speaker
because she had a found family previously, and then she ditched them. That's what I was meaning by her. But then some of them come back because like a real family, they're like, no, it doesn't matter that you tried to shrug us off, we're still here for you. That's great. Legend of Las Vegas really nails this trope, like double down. Yes, it does.
00:22:00
Speaker
Yeah. There's also, it's a very similar vibe to the Thursday Motor Club. I had someone on the Right and Wrong podcast recently called Leonie Swan, who has a book called The Sunset Ears of Agnes Sharp, which again is like, it's a house share of like old unruly people and they end up getting together to solve a crime.
00:22:21
Speaker
Yeah, that makes sense. Like the Marigold Hotel, wait, which how does it, how is it? I can't remember the full title. Best exotic Marigold Hotel. That's the one. That's the fella. Yeah. Which makes it sound really high stakes, but surprisingly it's not. And that's very cosy. Are you speaking of that? It's also like, um, it's not
00:22:40
Speaker
I guess they're as good as crime, I guess. The Grand Budapest Hotel is, I would say that's a cozy movie. It's very cozy. I feel like... Well, it's Wes Anderson. Yeah, the Wes Anderson films are going to be super cozy. They're all cozy. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I think like with Found Family, it always bugs me.
00:22:57
Speaker
because I studied history at university. And I remember when I was first told it that the thing about blood is thicker than water, the full sentence is the blood of the covenant is thicker than the water of the womb, which means that chosen bonds are stronger than family bonds, which obviously the church at the time came up with just to make sure like, no, you join the church, screw your family, leave them back. It's like a very divergent world that they live in. A faction over blood, but it is faction over blood. Like that's what makes things fun. I don't know. I quite like it. Like, especially if
00:23:26
Speaker
I'm an only child so I don't have any real siblings so I can have fictional siblings and it makes me feel cozy and my fictional siblings aren't even like annoying or vying for the attention of my parents because they're not real. It's perfect. Cozy. Cozy for selfish people like me.
00:23:43
Speaker
Okay. You're one of those authors that writes things like sis and bro, which no one who has siblings would ever say. I don't think I've ever in my life addressed my sister as sis. I don't think any of my characters have had a sibling yet, but when they do, I will absolutely make sure to put that in just to annoy you guys. Perfect.
00:24:06
Speaker
What do you think? Do you think there's any, obviously this is, this goes way beyond cozy crime and things like that. Found Family. I'm pretty sure Found Family is one of those tropes that you can, that you can find it in pretty much any genre there is. Um, do you think there's anything, any kind of pitfalls for this? Anything that some people like get wrong and that doesn't work? Hmm.
00:24:28
Speaker
I don't know. I can't think of anything off the top of my head that would be something I wouldn't like about. Like I said, even when they're not getting on or when they break apart and then come back together, especially if you're reading a really long series or watching a really long series. Or you even talk about it in Legends and Lattes, they refer to something that happened before. And then of course, those people come back into her life.
00:24:49
Speaker
because they have found family. I feel like because it feels realistic to some extent of real families where you might fall out of touch with somebody and then get back in touch, possibly purely because of your familial bond. I don't feel like there's any toxicity to it. I guess it depends on the setting.
00:25:11
Speaker
I think it could maybe fall flatter than you would hope if the chemistry isn't right. Oh, that's, yeah. The chemistry has to be amazing, especially on screen, if you're doing something on screen. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Because especially if like, like in romance, which is essentially all mostly cozy, like you expect romance to be cozy. That's why we're not really, I thought that's not really talk about that as like in the side of this, because it's like, romance just is cozy generally. But like,
00:25:40
Speaker
Yeah, if that chemistry is not right, so by the end of the book or the movie, you have these people together, but a part of you is kind of like, would they really, you know, they didn't seem that into each other. Like we were talking about with the Harry Potter movies, like Harry and Ginny, it's kind of like, I don't see the chemistry in them. Yeah.
00:25:59
Speaker
I guess with this, there's definitely elements of it that are like slow burn romance or sort of like, it's almost like you almost want it to be like enemies or rivals to lovers, but in a platonic way. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's the fun way to shoving people into a false proximity situation where then they choose to be there because they're choosing to show up for the other people, which makes you in turn like the character more in his great character development.
00:26:26
Speaker
Yeah, absolutely. I think that's why Guardians of the Galaxy works so well, actually. Oh my gosh, yeah, that's a really good fan. And it is cosy. There's a lot of sections on the ship where it's so cosy, actually. It's really good, yeah. Oh, that's a great shout. I think Rocket, particularly, he's got a really good character. Yeah, Angry Grandpa. I love it. Yeah, especially in the third one, when you get all his backstory. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:26:56
Speaker
Gonna start crying, thinking about it. Yeah, I mean, it's a classic trope. Did we do a whole episode on family in one of the early seasons? I don't know if we did, you know.
00:27:09
Speaker
We should have. Sorry, everyone. We absolutely should have. Maybe we will. It's the kind of trope that deserves the whole episode. It does. Yeah. There are so many fun found families within this trope. Yeah. Would you guys write it? It can go across. Yes. I've tried to write it in my new one.
00:27:30
Speaker
Yeah. Oh, I love, I just love it. I just love that. It's just, there is just something about, I think, the way that characters, as I say, like show up for each other and the way that that develops a character past what you may initially think. I think personally as a writer, one of the hardest things to do successfully
00:27:50
Speaker
is to have a character arc where a character is unlikable and becomes likable to the reader. I think that's really tough to pull off. And I think this is a great way to do it is, you know, having a character that's maybe, as Jamie was saying, was like enemies to platonic family member is like a perfect way to do it.
00:28:10
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, yeah. So wholesome. Yeah, because it's different from, it's not just a redemption arc if it's like your main character or your point of view character. Like it's, everyone loves a villain redemption arc, like a spike in Buffy or, I've forgotten his name, but the villain in Avatar The Last Airbender.
00:28:31
Speaker
who eventually stopped being a villain. Oh, that's going to really annoy me. Yeah, I'm totally blanking on his name and it's frustrating me. So I haven't watched that because it's three hours long. I don't have the patience, I can't do it. Three hours long. I can tell you the animated show is a lot more than three hours long. Yeah, I was going to say the animated show is... Oh, sorry, I thought you were talking about Avatar Blue People.
00:28:55
Speaker
Oh. That's the way of course. Yeah, I can see where you went. Now there's the mashup I need.
00:29:04
Speaker
I guess that's found family. That's more like found species. Yeah. And then he does have a family. They do adopt that one kid who's just Sigourney Weaver. He's just blue Sigourney Weaver. They just technically find her and she becomes in their family. That's really funny. That's true. Yeah.
00:29:29
Speaker
Yeah, I don't know if that's cozy or necessarily close. It doesn't look cozy. It looks very wet, especially like the water one. Yeah. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. Less cozy. Avatar 2, water wet. Yeah, that's the one. That's a fella. That's the takeaway.
00:29:46
Speaker
But it was a visual, it was spectacular in a visual sense. I'll give them that. I was happy to watch it. The story's like, fine. Just like in the first one, it's kind of just like, okay, yeah, it's fine, but a real delight for the eyes. Anyway, going back to what we usually talk about, I think that about sums it up for Found Family. Unless you guys have anything to add.
00:30:08
Speaker
Nope. No, I think that's it. It's great. The end. I don't know if I even told you guys what I picked in the end. I didn't think I did. No, it's a surprise. Wow. What a twist. Did you get to do any research beforehand? So the one I chose, the trope I chose, which I think is a funny trope, and excuse the vulgarity, but the trope is asshole victims.
Introducing the Asshole Victims Trope
00:30:32
Speaker
I looked into this one.
00:30:36
Speaker
And I think this works especially well in cozy settings because it means that we, the reader or the audience, don't have to feel bad for the victim who most likely won't have many scenes outside of depicting them as being annoying or immoral or just mean. So for writers,
00:31:00
Speaker
it's great because you can quickly get into the kind of crux of the story which would be the actual mystery and the kind of the characters starting to find clues and solving stuff without having to like build up some kind of connection or attachment to someone who's about to be murdered or like there's a or be stolen from or something like that because it doesn't always have to be murder we assume it's murder but you know it could just be theft or something like that and it might even be one of those
00:31:29
Speaker
This was such a bizarre thought for me, but I was like, yeah, this might be one of the only rare circumstances that not only allow you to get away with writing a two-dimensional character, but potentially it might be better for the situation you're setting up. Yeah. Because the more you know a character, the more human that character becomes, the more you can sympathize with them. If you actively want the reader to not like a character,
00:31:58
Speaker
you should only show two dimensions. You basically just need to show how unlikable they are and that they're mean to other people. And also maybe you need to sprinkle in some backstory that ties them to the crime or the perpetrators of the crime.
00:32:12
Speaker
Yeah. Makes them very 3D as well, like, because there's something, well, like, literally save the cat, which I'm obsessed with, is obviously called that. Specifically, the opposite way around, like, if there's a villain, you want them to save a cat in order to make them likeable. Usually, when someone's a victim, that's an automated way, like, for instance, orphaned, we've talked about that before, like, orphaned main characters, they're technically a victim, so it immediately makes you feel sorry for them.
00:32:36
Speaker
But it's quite fun if they're an arthold because then they're like much more 3D and it's like, well, I'm not surprised your pet. No, I'm joking. But that's probably an orphan if you're acting like this. It makes it like a lot more 3D and a lot more fun.
00:32:51
Speaker
Well, you don't even need to like flesh them out much because you basically want to present just the toxic side of them and then let the reader make up the rest of their story. Yeah. So like the less information the reader has, the more they can be like, wow, this person's, this person's just a prick. Yeah. And I thought there's a really good example of this was Edward Ratchet in Murder on the Orient Express.
00:33:19
Speaker
And it's not really a spoiler that he is the victim because he dies pretty early on. But even in all the adaptations, and I think in the books as well, I think the first time Poirot meets him, he gets a sinister, deceptive vibe about him. And I think
00:33:38
Speaker
he tries to hire Poirot and Poirot says no. I don't know if this is in all the adaptations, but I think in the books, maybe double check this, but I'm pretty sure he tries to hire Poirot because he thinks his life is under threat and Poirot says no. And he's like, well, how much would it cost? And Poirot does his classic, like, well, I have the luxury of not needing to like take jobs if I don't want them for money. But then because, yeah, because
00:34:07
Speaker
you're immediately told that there's something funny about this guy when he is then murdered. You're kind of like, well, first of all, I didn't attach to him too much because he gets murdered very early on. Obviously, that has to set up. That's the inciting incident. But then you're also just kind of like, well, seemed like a bad guy anyway, you know? Didn't seem like a nice guy. So you can just get on with it. We can just be like, all right, let's watch Poirot make fun of a bunch of rich people.
00:34:32
Speaker
I think as well though, it's an automatic get out of jail free card for whoever actually did do the murder because they basically done the world a favour by killing this person. A little glimpse into how Naomi sees things. But the reader is the judge and jury in these situations, aren't they? They're the ones who are like, oh, they killed that person, they should go to prison for that crime.
00:34:57
Speaker
But if that person they killed is really, really unlikable, you're like, oh, I'm not that sorry if he's dead. Exactly. It's almost like the readers saying, you know, this person was a bad person. I don't care that he's dead. I like this person who did the murder a lot more. So I'm going to let them get off, you know? Yeah. I don't think he does that in Murder in the Own Express. He holds it all accountable. But as a reader, you're like, you're not that sorry that it happens. He's awful good.
00:35:27
Speaker
Which is funny because it's like you all, for some reason, you all decided to take the fall for this by all stabbing him. Like the first person that stabbed him would have killed him. The rest of you just like, I don't know, you wanted to be accomplices or something? Also, how did they charge that? Because technically he would have been dead by the time like half the people killed him. So then they're just mutilating a corpse at that point. Well, that's also a crime, Jamie.
00:35:56
Speaker
So they can all go to prison now. Yeah, very bizarre.
00:36:03
Speaker
Since we were on Agatha Christie, there was an interesting conversely in Death on the Nile, and more of a spoiler warning for this because there's more of a twist, but it's only once the murderer is revealed that we discover that, so this is a sympathetic victim. She essentially did nothing wrong, but once she's killed,
00:36:29
Speaker
you discover that the entire marriage, the reason that they're on the boat to celebrate the marriage and the honeymoon or whatever, that it's all a scam and that the husband planned it all along because he was never broken up with the previous woman who was posing as his stalker. So I just thought it was interesting to see that the opposite of this where the victim is sympathetic and has been manipulated and then this like doubles down on the reveal when you find out the husband was like, he's not,
00:36:58
Speaker
It's not just bad that he was a murderer, but he also, like, the whole thing was a lie. He literally manipulated and scammed this woman and planned to murder her as soon as they were married. Terrible. In which case, I'm like, yeah, kill him. I'm with Naomi now. I'm like, yes. Punch him in the face, Poirot. Get him.
00:37:20
Speaker
What was it? Uh, we, we touched a bit on this, I think in the crime trope episode, but that's like adds into that. It's always fun to have unlike, well, this is a bit of a tangent, but it's so fun to have unlikable suspects. So like knives out.
00:37:35
Speaker
does it so well because the whole family are just the worst, like the absolute worst. So it makes it so fun. So if you're like asshole victims, it like makes things easier in some ways, but like also asshole suspects is great. It's such a great little little trope.
00:37:53
Speaker
Yeah. And I think if they're like specifically putting upon our main character, that really helps. So hear me out here. I was just thinking about Shrek. Obviously I'm always thinking about Shrek because Shrek is like, however, just thinking about Shrek. And there's that bit where he goes back to his swamp.
00:38:13
Speaker
very near the beginning of the first one. I'm not even going to bother saying sports for Shrek, for goodness sake, it's Shrek.
Blending Fantasy with Cozy Elements: A Complex Undertaking
00:38:18
Speaker
And the whole plot is that Lord Farquhar is trying to get rid of all of the fairy tale creatures and he dumps them all in Shrek swamp. And they are victims, they've been made homeless, it's terrible, but also they're absolute arseholes to Shrek. They just immediately take over his entire house. They kick him out there. And then when he says, I'll go and fix it for you, they're like, okay, bye. And don't even try and help.
00:38:38
Speaker
and they're just horrible and I think it really works with something cozy because I think arguably Shrek is a cozy thing, it's for children. I think it does work very nicely that you really feel for the main character you're like oh that's so annoying that he's so put upon and he's trying to help these people even though Shrek is like arguably supposed to be unlikable because he's trying to make people not like him and trying to keep people away from his swamp.
00:39:01
Speaker
So I think it works like really well in terms of not even necessarily when it's somebody who's been murdered. And obviously that's definitely fantasy as well. Like I think it's quite interesting when someone's a victim of something, but you're thinking, Oh my God, okay, shut up. Like let my main character get on with things. And I think it does work quite well for Cozy.
00:39:17
Speaker
Yeah, I agree. But I find, I mean, I don't know if it's just because I'm more introverted than extroverted, but Shrek's pretty relatable. I'm like, I'm like, yeah, leave me alone. Yeah, just slow me over there. I'm going to sit in my swamp. But I thought he deliberately makes himself unlikable though, doesn't he? Because he makes everyone think the way to him. Yeah, that's his like... Defense mechanism. Yeah, it's his... Psycho-analyzed Shrek.
00:39:45
Speaker
Yeah, that's his like character floor, isn't it? Yeah, I think so. It's his need, not his want. His need is that he actually needs to let down his defense and let people in. Yeah. But he doesn't want that because he's scared of being rejected, so. Yeah. Very deep stuff. Very deep stuff. Pretty good for a kids movie, you know? Yeah. Did they do such a good job of doing, putting off like fun stuff for adults as well? Yes, they do. Those first few tracks were great.
00:40:11
Speaker
The first few. How many are there? A thousand. Oh my God. But also in the same universe. Have you guys seen the second Puss in Boots movie that came out a couple of years ago?
Unexpected Quality in Sequels: The Case of Puss in Boots
00:40:22
Speaker
Yes. Oh my God. It's so good. Why is it so good? The first one was like, whatever. And it came out like, I swear like 10 years ago. I'm like, why did you make, first of all, why did they even make it equal to this? And why is it so damn good? Oh my God.
00:40:38
Speaker
Oh, it's just so well written. There's so many great character arcs in it. It's genuinely funny. And also the cast is insane. Yeah. Florence Pugh's in it, Emma Coleman's in it. They've got Antonio Baderis and Salma Hayek back. It's nuts. Everyone should watch that. Everyone should go and watch that movie immediately. It's fantastic. Do I have to watch the first one first? Or can I just watch that one? No. No, you definitely do. Don't watch the first one. Yeah, the first one's like... I barely remember what happens in the first one.
00:41:08
Speaker
Getting back on topic, shall we? I had some other examples for my asshole victims. Thursday Murder Club does this in a couple of the books, which I think they just do it to soften the, it's like, oh, didn't like them anyway, let's get to the solving. Yeah, which keeps it cozy.
00:41:23
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, yeah. The Secret History does this. I think Big Little Lies does this, but you find out after that he's bad. Not very cozy though. Yeah, you do find out afterwards he's bad. Yeah, that's true. Yes, he was a not very nice man to his wife.
00:41:48
Speaker
Yeah, and it does keep it because I guess that is also kind of like a comedy, but something quite serious has happened around like a full-on murder. But yeah, I think it definitely works. It just keeps it cozier because you don't worry as much about it.
00:42:05
Speaker
the actual real life. Although, you know, I was thinking when talking about this entire topic, especially with cosy fantasy, I think it is hilarious that we're like, well, it's just ridiculous this person would be allowed in a crime scene, but the dragons are fine. And it's just, you know, you do find yourself suspending disbelief for different things, depending on what you're used to reading maybe. So maybe maybe people who love cosy crime would be much more accepting of these things.
00:42:30
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, I guess. With something like Big Little Lies, it's interesting that this trope can be done that two ways around where it's like, it's set up beforehand, this person is a bad person. And thus when they die, you don't mind versus they died. And then later on, you find out that they were a bad person. Because that hugely changes the way that you're experiencing the story. Yeah, I think it does it really well.
00:42:54
Speaker
I guess in the latter one, it's like you, I guess that there's more tension. You probably wouldn't get that in cosy because there's more tension and you're more concerned and there's more area. Yeah, exactly. Where you're kind of like, Oh, but that person died and we should be sympathetic. And then later on, it's like, Oh, that person was actually terrible. And then you're conflicted and you have different. Yeah, I don't think you'd get that as much in cosy. You might, but I mean,
00:43:20
Speaker
I had one that I wasn't sure about, but I did think there were some arguments for, and it's not cozy at all, Gone Girl.
Gone Girl and the Twist on Victimhood
00:43:36
Speaker
I was like, to a point, there is this because you think that she's the victim, obviously. And then you start to learn bad stuff. And then until a certain point, you're kind of like, wow, what a terrible person, even though she was the victim. But then obviously there's the twist. And then you're like,
00:43:59
Speaker
Is she still a... No. It's like, Twisters, not the victim. Yeah. And he's still... And in a way, when it's flipped and sort of the main suspect becomes a victim, he's also an asshole. Yeah. He's still terrible. True. They just passed the baton over. You can be the asshole victim now. But I have some more off-piste ones here.
00:44:27
Speaker
This one is off piece, but it does feel cozier than my previous two suggestions. Ocean's 11. Oh, yeah. Ocean's 11 is a bit cozy.
00:44:37
Speaker
I think, you know what, one of my favourite films growing up, they, generally it's like, I think you're going into that film and there is a kind of a promise that you know that it's going to kind of be
Cozy Heists: Ocean's 11 and Rule-Bending Justice
00:44:50
Speaker
happily ever after. You know that there's going to be a comeuppance for the bad guys. And they do set out, as soon as they introduce the character of Terry Benedict, who in the more modern one is Andy Garcia's character.
00:45:04
Speaker
You're told explicitly and I think a couple of times just to reiterate the point, he's the one that owns the casinos they rob and that if you cross him, he's the kind of person that will not only like come after you, destroy you, but will also go after your family and like everyone you've ever met, that's like reiterated just to kind of really let you know that this guy's a piece of work.
00:45:26
Speaker
I guess that partially helps you. It partially helps justify the fact that you are rooting for criminals, but it is this, I think. He's the victim, but you're kind of like, get him, because they made him out to be this really horrible person. Yeah, and he's creating other victims, even though what he's doing is technically legal. I suppose technically there's some stuff he's doing that's illegal, but
00:45:52
Speaker
I'm not on the surface people believe everything you do it doesn't mean he's morally in the right feels like our characters are morally in the right. Yeah even if they're not.
00:46:02
Speaker
And it's another, it's another interesting use for the, this trope is like, as I said, justifying the criminal activity that the main characters are doing. Yeah. Because otherwise, you know, if they didn't make him out to be bad, if they, if he was like just some guy that ran a business, you know, it would be like, Hmm, should I be questioning the fact that I'm rooting for the people who are just trying to steal money from a legitimate business owner? Yeah.
00:46:29
Speaker
Yeah, you know, Cozy is essentially like having to root for people who may be so like, even with just like the detectives, the armed chair detective, like going in there and getting involved. And usually they have to do a couple of illegal things that they might steal a piece of evidence, have a look at it, or they obviously trespass onto a crime scene to find out a bit more information. I feel like a lot of these cozy tropes are talking about which was what makes it cozy, like moralistic things.
00:46:56
Speaker
They're all just anarchy. You should just be good people. The good people, if they need to use force to be good, they will use it. That's what I feel like Cozy is. And that's fine. I'm fine with that. It's the Captain America and the Civil War argument. We should be able to just do whatever we want as long as we're doing it on the side of justice. Exactly.
00:47:17
Speaker
My issue with that in that kind of universe specifically in that film is it's like, but we trust you because literally your superpower is that you are always on the moral high ground. That's literally Captain America's superpower. And it's like, but you can't say that for everyone else. No one else has that like insane, unrealistic, moral perfection. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:47:42
Speaker
But I did have, okay, I have one more example, and this is where I'm stretching it. We'll see. But then again, I said that, but this is akin to Naomi's taken earlier, I'll be honest.
00:47:56
Speaker
I think there is the faintest, slimmest argument that we can justify John Wick killing 77 people in the first movie because all of them were associated with the guy that killed his puppy.
00:48:13
Speaker
Yes. Absolutely. As a dog owner, I approve of this message. Exactly. Yeah. My canine loving brain, that entire movie is like, yes, John, more, kill them all scorched earth. You see it on social media when there's like a story about, or like someone takes a video, someone kicking a dog, and then people on social media are like, give me his address and a pair of pliers. I will be there. It's just everyone's job. We can that situation, aren't they?
00:48:37
Speaker
Yeah. And it's the, I mean, that's dogs, but it's like, then that's the whole reason for the, uh, don't F with cats. Well, that was like a whole thing on the internet and it's very dark and that's, that's a whole other rabbit hole, but it's like, yeah, people that are very attached to animals. And like the, I can only imagine that the, in the John Wick was essentially, uh, they were like, let's just, we need to set up a premise for a guy to go on an absolute killing spree and do some really cool stunts. Cause the, the John Wick movies, uh,
00:49:05
Speaker
essentially just a platform to do really cool artistic stunt work and shots like that. So I imagine in the writing room they were like, right, what's the fastest way we can make this character sympathetic and justify an insane killing spree? And they were like open with the wake of his wife's death.
00:49:28
Speaker
The last gift she ever gives him is a puppy. Kill the puppy. Yeah. Someone had save the cat on their desk and they thought, what if we didn't save the cat? What if we killed the dog? And everyone's like genius. It is genius. It's so good. It's such a good setup. You would do anything for him. It'll never beat that speed run. No, it works in James Bond as well. When he gets, he gets his little daughter, you suddenly realize he's got a family. Anything that he does after that point.
00:49:56
Speaker
justifies saving his family. It's so interesting. Wait, what? James Bond has a daughter? No. What are you thinking of? Have you not seen it? I haven't seen it. I don't watch any James Bond, to be fair, so I'm staying out there. I've seen all the James Bonds. Oh. Wait, was that the most recent one? Last summer Daniel Craig, yeah. Oh. Spoilers, guys.
00:50:26
Speaker
spoilers. Daniel Craig's not James Bond anymore. And he never will be.
00:50:36
Speaker
Um, I can't remember that at all. That shows you how much impact that movie had on me. Wow, I can't believe you don't remember. It's true. Okay. Homework. No, all I remember is the long 20 minute sequence at the end. Oh, no, no, no, no, no. I vaguely remember that. Yeah. I love how it's like film about puppy being killed. Yeah. I remember every bit. I remember how many victims there were. I remember film about man with child who goes on death by mission. I don't remember that. No idea. Yeah. That's fair. And that's fair. That's so funny.
00:51:05
Speaker
No, can't remember at all. I thought I'd spoil the movie for you then. I have seen it, sorry. That's really funny.
00:51:17
Speaker
I think that about rounds off that thing. I didn't think there was any, it's hard to kind of go wrong with this. You're just writing an unlike. Like if you're going to do this, you're going to specifically say, this person's the victim. I'm going to make them unlikable. You already know what you're doing. You already know what genre you're writing and you already know what kind of thing you're setting up. So it would be hard to go wrong, I think at this point.
00:51:41
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. I think that's the whole point of Cozy as well, isn't it? Is that it's not exactly unpredictable. So I feel like anything with Cozy elements is something where I know someone's going to get a just dessert or I'm going to get happily ever after, however that may come. Yeah. I like Cozy elements and things. I like it. For sure. Awesome. That wraps that up. Cool. Let's finish off as has become tradition now with checking in to see have you guys added anything to TBL's this week?
00:52:12
Speaker
Good question. I'm double checking through my Kindle list as we speak because I obviously remembered that we always do this. Oh, do you know what? I've actually got a really good one. I've got a really good one. Okay, so I added, this is a plug for me being an amazing editor.
00:52:28
Speaker
I added a friend's book to my list, so she's called Debbie Anniver. She was all over the news last week because she's written a book that's just come out called Midode, which is a word that she coined to do with from when she lost her son Dan in 2018. So she's now a mother without children, and there was no word for that, so she coined the word Midode. And she's written a book about the first 15 years of Dan's life and the year from when he died to the first year anniversary.
00:52:58
Speaker
and it's come out with Jaja Publishing and it's amazing. I picked up my copy last night at the launch party and I will be reading it back through because I read some early versions because she's in my writing group. I've added that to my TBR and it's very good and very uplifting even with the content. I would recommend it to anyone. It's obviously like a heavy reading parts, but she's also a very funny writer. Yeah, looking forward to rereading.
00:53:26
Speaker
That sounds great. Yeah. It sounds powerful. Yeah. It's really good. Naomi, anything for you? So I have an Abib 120BR, but I did buy the one that I talked about from last week.
00:53:38
Speaker
They don't feel like that counts. That's one step towards you actually reading it. I know, right? I jump. I'm like three chapters in. Oh, it's so good. So it's in the Spretrick Valley about a bunch of climbers who find this unknown mountain in Kentucky and no one's ever climbed it before. Yes. And it's three chapters in and there's already a trip that I absolutely love. It's where technology doesn't work properly and they're like being led into
00:54:04
Speaker
this wilderness without proper GPS and they've no idea where they're going and they're like, are we going in circles? But it's like, I don't know. And it's just so clever. I love it. I'm waiting for someone to die. It's going to be good.
00:54:18
Speaker
And then it'll all kick off. Awesome. I actually added something as I was, uh, cause I knew we were doing this ahead of time, this specific episode. So I was thinking about cozy stuff and we haven't mentioned it, even though this is cozy fantasy, but I was like, you know what, I need to, it hasn't, it's been a while since I read a Terry Pratchett.
00:54:38
Speaker
So I was like, oh, I'm going to, I'm going to find a Terry Pratchett. I haven't read, I'm going to put that on my list. So I haven't read going postal. It's one of his like most popular ones. I was like, there it is. Add it to the list. Hopefully I'll get to it at some point, but I mean, Terry Pratchett is cozy fantasy for me. It's like, yes, that's so true. Actually, I believe we didn't even bring that up, but yes.
00:54:59
Speaker
So cozy. What should we do? I mean, he does like all the tropes, so it's hard to like pin them down. There's so many books. Yeah. He has like multiple shelves if you go to any bookshop, if it's all there. But yeah, Terry Patrick was my head. And that wraps it up. Nice. Thanks for listening, everyone.
00:55:28
Speaker
Thanks for putting up with our nonsense for another episode. To stay tuned to everything we're up to, you can follow the podcast on all socials at The Chosen Tropes. Follow Melissa at Melava, Naomi at Naomi G. Wright and Jamie at Jamie X. Greenwood. Don't forget to check out Naomi and Melissa's books, as well as the Right and Wrong podcast. Thanks again, and we'll see you on the next trope.