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S4.E4 - Signing a Book Deal
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Naomi and Melissa compare notes about their first book deals and are surprised at how different some of their experiences were.
- Naomi Gibson, author of Every Line of You, Game Over Girl
- Melissa Welliver, author of The Undying Tower, My Love Life and the Apocalypse, Soulmates and Other Ways to Die
- Jamie Greenwood, creator & host of the Write and Wrong Podcast
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Transcript
Toxic Characters: Love to Hate Them?
00:00:00
Speaker
Do you reckon Christian Grey is a different character? Whoa! You had a half ah i been it being shit, after every episode was like, oh my gosh, I'm so angry at these toxic characters, like, she'll have more food in my mouth, press next episode, because I loved it, but obviously I hate it. This is so much fun. Because this is my Malfoy Hermione panel. Yes! She shouldn't have done that. I'm trying to make Neville happen. It's too wholesome.
00:00:29
Speaker
two host damage like my i I have a new, a I was going through my one star review list, which I have compiled and I've filtered them into difficulties. So I wanted to put it to you guys. Would you like an easy one, a tricky one or a near impossible one? That's fun. Those are the difficulty levels.
00:00:54
Speaker
I totally didn't get the one from the last episode. So I'm gonna go for easy this week, please Yeah going you pick that's easy one we can go up Okay, this is a super easy one. There we go so ah There is absolutely no need for this book to be 800 pages long and there's also no reason for two characters to be named John and two characters to be named Rob and ga with her and Yeah
00:01:22
Speaker
are all called the same names. I always get them confused. That's a really good point. That's an excellent one, sorry. Heading on the the important issues. just yeah And it's all true, to be fair. I can't argue against.
00:01:39
Speaker
No, I totally get it. Okay. Getting onto the episode.
What Really Happens When You Get a Book Deal?
00:01:47
Speaker
So following on from where we left off last time, which was getting an agent and the kind of myths and, uh, misconceptions to do with that, uh, and then going out on submission now.
00:02:01
Speaker
We are stepping around the curtain a bit and we're going to be covering what happens if you are fortunate enough to find yourself with a book deal. um So I realized that this is the point in the series where I'm going to fall into a more regular role for me, which is mostly asking questions to you two. But did you guys each pick like a thing for this one or did you just want to do it more general?
00:02:26
Speaker
I sort of have a thing, but I'm really happy to keep it general. I think Melva asked some really good questions in our group. so I dumped many things into the group chat before having one of these chats.
00:02:43
Speaker
Okay, let's keep it general then and I'll just kind of, let's, I thought an interesting way of doing this is, this is just becoming the right and wrong podcast extended, but I thought an interesting way of doing this would be to kind of ask each of you what your experiences were when you got your first book deals. So if we, Naomi, you go first and we say, so what, when you first got your book deal, like,
00:03:08
Speaker
From the author's point of view, how does it happen to you? Presumably it starts with a phone call from your agent. Yes. I i was in my office at work and um I was very, I was all very on Tenterhooks because Jo had told me, um you know, we've got interest from this publisher and I was like, woohoo, interest. So I was like eyeballing my phone the entire time I was in the office. I didn't think I really did any work for like a good week. And then she rang me and it picked up straight away. And she said that they made an offer. um And she told me what the offer was. um And she said, I think we can get more. And I was like, yes, go and get more, that's great. and So she ah she, we hung up, she went away, she negotiated and she ran me back maybe 20, 30 minutes later. um And she was like, we got the deal, we've got it. And I was like, literally in the middle of the office go, woo hoo.
00:04:05
Speaker
And I had to excuse myself and go to the loo where the signal was terrible. And we were both just like, what? Can you hear me? What? Over the phone. um But both really excited about it. um ah Yeah, it was a pretty good day, not gonna lie. So that's, turn yeah you have essentially as the author, you had absolutely no input in the deal, you were essentially just being told what was happening by Joe.
00:04:29
Speaker
Yes, so the editor dealt directly with Jo and I just sort of got the whole got wind of it basically from Joe. So and ah Joe as well, when I was on sub, she she didn't really, she didn't really tell me if I had any rejections because and I said, my mental health can't take it. So don't tell me, just tell me if it's good news. So I didn't really hear from her. And so when she rang me, I was like, Oh, maybe it's good news. And it was good news. And so yeah, so I didn't really hear anything, um unless she heard something good. um So whenever she rang me, I knew it'd be good.
00:05:07
Speaker
Okay. And Melissa, what was that experience like for you?
Traditional vs Non-Traditional Book Deals
00:05:11
Speaker
It was really different actually. That was interesting. like It was really different for me. So like super briefly, technically speaking, I had like a non-traditional deal the first time around, first time I released Undying Tower.
00:05:24
Speaker
So like super brief, that was very different because we'd been on submitted for a long time. It was COVID. um I got an email from Lucy saying she had sort of gently pitched my book to this digital first publishing house that was within the scope of Peter's Fraser and Dunlop, which is her um agency.
00:05:42
Speaker
So it was kind of an internal conversation and an ongoing and it wasn't like a big light bulb moment There wasn't any upfront advance for instance. It was very very different and but my first traditional deal I Got an email from Lucy. So obviously at this point we've been like I said in previous episodes we've been like banging our heads against this publishing wall for like years like being years at this point and um Lucy also told me not very much when we had interest because I think she knew I was quite anxious because like Naomi, my mental health couldn't take it. I was like, I am a glutton for punishment, send me every rejection, I need to know everything, which we have changed tact slightly since then. But at the time I was like, I need to know everything. I don't know what was wrong with me, but I decided I did. So, you know, obviously you've had a few rejections and I'm like, oh, it got so close. Will I ever hear the good news? And I got an email in my inbox.
00:06:35
Speaker
from Lucy that just said an offer from Chicken House with five exclamation marks as the as the subject and then inside was like call me. It was like a couple of little details but just like call me. Are you free now? So obviously because I'm free now I'm like yeah I'm free now I want to hear the news. and So yeah then we had a phone call and she told me like in proper detail sort of what had been offered but She didn't say, um you know, we can go back. Lucy often tends to, because we've been on submission a few times now, it's usually she doesn't tell me too much and she comes back with the final offer. There has been one time where that wasn't the case because we were talking through some things, but usually she only calls me when she's like, yeah, we've absolutely nailed everything down. This is the highest offer I could get you. I have the best terms I could get you. We have talked about everything.
00:07:26
Speaker
It's basically if you say, yeah, we'll get straight on with getting that contract printed up. okay So she doesn't tell me in advance. So she so she negotiates and then brings the final offer to you. And then brings the offer. It obviously says like, if you hate this, obviously say no, but I have already negotiated the best possible offer.
Trusting Agents and Negotiation Tactics
00:07:42
Speaker
So you're kind of trusting, aren't you, your agent, because, and also remember, they're not going, okay, so here's the list of editors. We're playing a really fun game where half of them are awful, and half of them are great. I'm going to send your book to all of them, and which everyone says, yes, it'll just be 50-50 whether you have a good time. Like, no, obviously they're picking editors that they think will fit your book, and editors that people that they've spoke to, I'm not even just talking about like publishing houses, like people they've spoken to who they think would really like get on with you well, and blah, blah, blah. So you are trusting your put ah your agent in that the sense that your book will land on, any of the deaths that your book would land on would be a good death to land on. So i don't think I think some people get really worried about that, like, what if my agent just takes over and forces me into this terrible, you know, like it's a romanticy and they're being forced into a terrible marriage or something. It's like, what's happening? Like, obviously, they're trying to pick people a short list that will fit your book really well. yeah and So yeah, really different.
00:08:34
Speaker
Yeah, that's so interesting. There's one, I don't know if either of you felt this, it didn't sound like you didn't know me, but I've spoken to lots of authors, especially with the first book. You go through your agent, your agent's like, oh, um here's the deal. And like with both of your agents, I think they were kind of like, oh, I think we can get more money.
00:08:54
Speaker
I've spoken to so many authors who who have sort of said, and I panicked. And I was like, well, we can't mess around. What if they don't want to buy it anymore? What if they, you know, what if they suddenly are like, Oh, no, actually, CEO, we don't care.
00:09:06
Speaker
And I think it's so important for people to like listen to their agent in that situation because yeah almost all of the time the agent will be like, it's going to be okay. It's fine. We're just going to try and get a better deal. It's negotiation. It's part of the industry. you that's That's really interesting because that's that was not the case for me because I think in my day job, I work as ah as a quantity surveyor in in the commercial department. So we do a lot of like negotiating over the table between client and contractor.
00:09:33
Speaker
So I know okay that whenever somebody gives you their first number, that is not their real offer. So when she rang me and she said, we've been offered this, I was like, okay, how do you feel? And she was like, we can get more. And I said, I agree. So, so I just, I don't know. That's just the game. That's the game of negotiation. You never go into what you really want to give someone. So.
00:09:51
Speaker
Yeah. It's so funny how these like mind games are just ingrained into a serious business. yeah yeah so yeah It's the mini game of business. yeah You just like roll your charisma check. How high can we go?
00:10:08
Speaker
That's what it feels like though, doesn't it? And then it's, it's stressful. I think it can be stressful because it depends how confident you are in your product. When I got this offer, as I say, we'd been out for years. I tried a different type of avenue into publishing and unfortunately that publisher had folded. I had been looking at maybe self-publishing from then on. We'd been out with several projects. So My confidence was not like super high when we got the call. I was like, oh, so I must admit, I was quite glad she'd called me after all of that bit had done. Like she'd already negotiated all the stuff um and told me it was like the best number she could get, which obviously I trust my agent. So I believe her. I was quite glad because I was
Stress and Confidence in Book Deals
00:10:52
Speaker
thinking.
00:10:52
Speaker
I was starting to get quite stressed about, will it sell at all? And I think it depends where you are on the journey sometimes as to how confident you feel with someone going back in. Because if it was if you're if you're negotiating for something like, say, a market, and you're like, oh, I really like that chair. I really want to buy that chair. And they say it's 15, you say 30, and they say 40. Depends how much you want the chair if you're going to just walk away, right? So I just think, how much do they really want my book? Surely I'm just filler between their amazing books.
00:11:19
Speaker
Surely they don't really want my book. I'm just lucky they've even offered me any money at all. You do get to that point, I think, sometimes. So I do understand where that comes from. But the game is totally right. Like you should be more like Naomi. Don't be like me. Yeah, it sounds like Naomi has that experience. And if I tell you as someone who doesn't have that experience, I've not done like corporate negotiation. Yeah. For me, and I get it. I'm like, as soon as someone tells me that in my brain, I'm like, there's a deadline. It's not going to happen. It's going to fall through. We've got to act now. Yeah.
00:11:47
Speaker
I'm susceptible to that like false scarcity, you know, when you like go online and it's like order an order within the next one minute. otherwise doing and discount I'm like Jesus Christ, please no. Let's stay on Melissa and then moving on to the next bit. So both of you, if you do this traditionally, if you have an agent, most of the time the deal you're not going to be involved in, you're just going to be hearing the process as it goes on. There is a caveat there for auctions. um I know that if your book does go to auction, ah what usually happens is you and the you and your agent will go to individual meetings with each of the editors from the publishing houses involved in the auctions and the editors will essentially pitch
00:12:34
Speaker
what what their concept is for how the direction they would want to take the book in and how they would market it and things like that. And then you two go back and discuss and decide which one you would like to go for. But now we're talking about the luckiest of the lucky, if your book goes to auction, that is you you won you won the jackpot with that. You did. And I talked about that more in an episode with Phoebe Morgan, who is editor on the Right and Wrong podcast.
00:13:00
Speaker
Um, getting back into us, we'll stay with Melissa and then we'll throw it back to Naomi. But the con, so the deal is done. You've spoken to your agent. Yay. You've signed. They've negotiated it for you. is What's the next step? Is the next step you sit down and meet the editor for the first time? Yes. So, um, once you're happy, well, actually.
00:13:24
Speaker
It depends. So I have been out on submission before where we have spoken to the editor before. And I remember I was in a submission group and a lot of people said, oh, you know, I've had one offer, so not an auction situation. And it's our first offer and, you know, we've given everyone else a chance, but we are going to be speaking to the editor that made the offer, like what sort of questions should I ask?
00:13:45
Speaker
And I remember I thought, oh, you met the editor before signing because I'm pretty
The Editing Journey: From Meeting the Editor to Final Proof
00:13:49
Speaker
sure I didn't do that. Like it's hard to think back, isn't it? And you're trying to think, um so for instance, a lot of stuff, maybe people won't know this, a lot of stuff happens and this is very common before you even sign your contract. So there'll say like, Oh, yeah, the contract's coming, don't worry. And sometimes you will even start editing before you sign the contract. This is not uncommon. I've seen it on all my submission groups, I thought it was a bit strange. And I was like, you know, they would tell you, never start work without signing a contract, especially if you're freelance, like obviously not, but you do. And in fact, until you sign the contract, that then starts the countdown for payment. So quite often, you are doing a lot of work
00:14:23
Speaker
with the editor before you've even been paid. ah Kind of on trust. It's a bit scary. It's just the way the industry seems to work. And it seems to be the same in the US as well on my submission groups. It has US people in it as well. So I'm talking English speaking. Well, I don't know exactly like how it works everywhere.
00:14:39
Speaker
um So yes, you do sit down and have a chat with your editor. With my first book contract, that is what it did I did. I said yes to the contract. I can't remember if the contract had actually come through by the time I spoke to them, but we were talking as if I had signed the contract, it was a done deal when I was speaking to the team over the phone. So I spoke to, I assume it's the same for Naomi, because it's the same publishing house, but I spoke to sort of the editor who was Kezi Lupo, and the acquiring editor. And then I also spoke to, I think the PR person was there and ah Barry Cunningham, who's the CEO, was there and all those people. So yeah, that is usually the next step, and possibly before signing your contract, which can be a bit scary. And what do you talk about in that meeting?
00:15:23
Speaker
and So what's funny is you see all these people like, what questions should I ask? And you have all these questions, right? You're like, I'm going to be super sensible. I'm not going to get swept away. And you'll have all these questions like, what is the marketing plan and all this stuff? And to be honest, you just get completely overwhelmed. What I did in the meeting, there are so many people on it. It's not usually just your editor. It's usually at least one other person, someone from marketing or something.
00:15:46
Speaker
you know and they'll say some stuff about oh we've all read it because usually the whole team when you're signing a contract has read the book there'll be at least a team assigned to you like the marketing person will have read it and you know obviously like the next person up above you read still read it that sort of thing and they'll say yeah I've got really good idea for this I think the rights person was on the call and she said oh I've not got to it yet or I've started it but I've got some really good ideas of publishing houses I could send this to in different countries so I feel like they're just sort of telling you how excited they are about your book. And sometimes it is quite nice actually to just settle back and be like, these people are excited about my book, especially if it's been years, like I have for me, right? Like being years and years and you feel like you were never going to get there. And you always being told like edits by your agent. Your agent obviously is your biggest supporter and they tell you books are amazing. But by that point they feel like, you know, like your mum or something. So you're like, doesn't matter if you say it, I want an editor to say it. Don't be that loosely for listening.
00:16:40
Speaker
and you know you were you end up in this meeting where everyone's like we love you you're amazing and it is really nice. It is really nice and it doesn't matter if you don't ask all the right questions because to be honest it's quite an early stage to ask questions anyway. You've trusted that it's the correct editor because your agent wouldn't throw you under the bus by sending your stuff to an editor that they hate or have heard terrible things about or think you won't fit with. You've trusted that the editor is very excited they're not just lying to you they actually do genuinely want to work on your book and of course they do because they have to read it a one hundred times.
00:17:10
Speaker
So they do really want to work on your book and they've paid money for it. So they think it's going to be commercially successful to an extent. So I found, I didn't really ask anything, even though I probably should have done, but then I definitely think it's that important on the first call. It's more of a meet and greet. Yeah, that's what it feels like. I don't know, Naomi might feel differently, but. Well, let's see, was that kind of the same as your experience Naomi?
00:17:33
Speaker
Yes. um Essentially, i and I ended up going to to London to meet them. Oh, nice. You were probably COVID times. yeah So um I went to London and was wind and dined. It was really lovely. yeah and So I met Cassia and I met Barry and Joe came and it was just the four of us and we sat at the table and did like the whole handshake, how are you kind of thing.
00:18:03
Speaker
And then im we had lunch and we were just chatting about books that we liked. It was actually just really lovely. And then um sort of you know once the meal was over, they started talking about edits that they had in mind.
00:18:15
Speaker
and so we'd sort of had like an editorial conversation really and over coffee. I felt very London.
00:18:25
Speaker
oh okay Yeah, and I was just sort of taking notes and stuff. But I did end up working, like what you said, whatever, I ended up working on my book where the contract wasn't in place and I was basically doing it for free.
00:18:36
Speaker
However, and I did contract law for a master's in contract law. And so i I was very aware that there had been an offer and it had been accepted verbally and in email. So I was not that worried about it, if I'm honest, but I understand a lot of authors do get worried about that when you haven't actually signed anything.
00:18:57
Speaker
Yeah, I guess the the thing that you can trust in is that the editor is working with you and obviously the publisher is paying the editor's salary. So like, they are already paying money for you even if you haven't signed the contract yet, just on the hourly rate or whatever the editor is. Yeah, for sure. I think there's still on a worry that it could they could walk away from the table because you haven't technically signed a legal document.
00:19:24
Speaker
Yeah, that's the thing you panic about. Any excuse, they will walk away because they clearly hate my book. It's hilarious. Literally, the entire conversation is just like, this is a fluke. They will realize that there was another book with the same title and they've accidentally chosen me. I think this is quite common and they start editing it.
00:19:42
Speaker
And they'll think, Oh God, what's, what's, what's all this crap? Like, this isn't what we bought. We wanted that other really cool book. And they'll just use any excuse. And if I've not signed the contract yet, they'll just dump me. It does feel like that. And by the way, no no shade at all on any like publisher. It's all the publishers that make you feel like that at all. If anything, they're really, really nice. And that makes me feel more suspicious because I'm that kind of person. It's a trick. It's a ruse. So it's all in my head. Like it's nothing to do with the publishers. yeah So ah that never, that never worried me um because of that training that I'd had, I was like, no, no, there's been a firm offer, a firm acceptance. We have a contract in the eyes of the law. You ain't going anywhere. Okay, good to know. I will remember that. There you go. Okay, right. So that, that, yeah, obviously that, that is to some degree legally binding, just having EF information of yes, offer accepted. Absolutely. Yep.
00:20:33
Speaker
Yeah. Okay. I guess that's probably good for a lot of people to know if they're in that situation. So you have been wind and dined, Naomi. And and I'm guessing it was a very casual talk about edits, mainly with Kesia. So then what happens after that?
00:20:50
Speaker
um So after that I, so we discussed like a deadline um for the edits and I went away basically and and did them. and I think I had done my first round of dev edits before I even signed a contract because the contract took so long to hash out um between Jo and Chicken House. Jo is a very good contract, she's she really fights um ah for the for the terms for you. And um she, Chicken House really wanted to buy ah the TV rights from for TV and film. and And Jo didn't want to give them up because she's very good at selling them herself. And so in the end, they ended up splitting them. And that was why my contract took so long. I think I probably went about from from my initial offer, and that wine and dine session, it was probably about
00:21:40
Speaker
five or six months later that I actually signed my contract. Yeah. That's a long time. Yeah, which is a long time. So I had done some dev edits basically with them, but like I said, I wasn't really that worried about it. Um, cause I, I was pretty sure there was a contract there anyway. Okay. So it's, it's essentially you meet the people and then you're straight into the editing phase of the whole process. Yes. That was pretty much me. Yeah.
00:22:05
Speaker
So when it comes to editing, we'll jump back to Melissa here.
Stages of Editing: Developmental to Proof
00:22:09
Speaker
Because I'm assuming that was the same for you, Melissa. You have the call, you meet everyone, and then you're going to chat with, presumably you have a private call with Cassia, and you'll go more in detail about edits and things like that. Yeah, exactly. yeah um So editing, and I think there's a lot of misconceptions about editing and how much control the author has versus the publishing house um for people who are outside of this. but ah You've both been through the kind of publishing industry machine a couple of times now. when you do it How many different rounds are there of editing?
00:22:44
Speaker
Yeah, so it's pretty standardized. I mean, I've worked like with this sort of this non-traditional, traditional publisher, I've worked with, uh, traditional, I've worked with, uh, UCLan, another traditional publisher. Um, and it feels like it's pretty standard, especially also speaking to other authors, seems about the same everywhere. So you do, um, a developmental edit. Sometimes you do a couple of rounds of developmental editing.
00:23:09
Speaker
um So that one is where basically you might um see some of these online a lot. People might um pay sort of for a report about their book. and So this will be not like line editing or anything like that. This will be like they'll write up. ah Usually it's like four or five pages for me anyway.
00:23:24
Speaker
and of stuffing your book that needs to be fixed before you go into the nitty-gritty. So those will be things like and plot holes or character development, or if you've got a romance B plot, ah maybe you need to develop the romance a little bit. There'll be suggestions on how to do it, but I do notice that editors, especially much lesser than say my agent who's very editorial, they don't like to push you in a certain direction.
00:23:48
Speaker
So they'll say, I think it would be good if the romance was a bit more slow burn because it's a bit faster to make you say more slow burn. Well, you know, I mean, it's slower burn because it's a bit fast and it's a bit in still up at the minute. I think it would work really well. It's up to you, of course, but I think it would work really well. and I'd be interested to hear your ideas on this. I have a few ideas myself. you it they'll They'll be a little bit more vague. They want it to come from you.
00:24:10
Speaker
um as opposed to them. Sometimes in the second dev edit, once we started working together and putting heads a little bit, um ah in a good way, like really thinking of a third option, if maybe we did a disagreement or something like that, they will then start to say, okay, here's an idea I've had, or do you think maybe they could be a bit more evil here and do something like, I don't know, kill this person? and they'll give you a couple more um directions, but I found they wanted it mostly to come from you, especially during Zoom call conversations about that, they want it to come from you. and And then you move on to line edit, which is line by line comments in the margins, and checking all your sentences make sense. It's not necessarily grammar and punctuation that comes later, but it's things like, have you been repeating yourself a lot? um Have you maybe got a bit too much exposition and you can actually cut the paragraph in half?
00:25:00
Speaker
saving work out and that kind of stuff. Then you move on to um copy editing, which is usually with a different person for a fresh pair of eyes, and sometimes a freelance person outside of the publishing house. And they will read it and say, after I love the copy edit, because I just think that copy editors deserve their own sitcom. They're just amazing. They'll just look up stuff and they'll notice. So in my book, love life My Love Life in the Apocalypse, it was, um so you say he's lived in the penthouse and it was 105 stories, but now the electricity is out and he's running down the stairs. You then say he gets there three minutes later. Even though he is part robot, would he be able to get there in three minutes? I looked up this video online and it's just this whole thing about this one sentence.
00:25:40
Speaker
about someone coming down these stairs. And they're just brilliant. They find all these tiny intricate details and everyone knows somebody that reads like that. The reader goes, did you know on this, they said that they had a five hour flight to Miami, but I know it takes longer to fly to Miami. And they'll just like tell you and you're like, okay. And obviously the copy editor didn't pick that up. um And then after that, that's when you have what's called proof edits, which is where it's grammar, it's spelling punctuation. and They type set it at that point, which is really cool because then you get to see what it would look like as on a page in a book.
00:26:09
Speaker
So that's like very basic. I've probably missed out some stages, but that's a quick brief explanation of sort of, it's like four stages of editing that you go through. So what was it? It was developmental. Yeah. And then line. Line. And then then what's called copy. And then it's proof. Yeah.
00:26:27
Speaker
Okay. What was the proof one? It's just it last minute. It's pretty last minute. Yeah. Because when you get your proof, it's usually been typeset. So, um, they'll ask you, it's literally like grammar, some spelling, but mostly you're accepting things because it'll just say like, you know, I changed this because you should capitalize mum when someone's saying it as a title or something.
00:26:49
Speaker
So you're just kind of pressing, yeah, that's fine. Yeah, that's fine. That makes sense. um And it's just to check they haven't misunderstood maybe your meanings. Again, the proof edit will be done by another person, usually like a third person will then come in on the proof edit to give another fresh pair of eyes. So yeah, they're laying out, you see it as a book, you can read it through, but you can't make any major changes at that point, because it will change, say the word count of the book, which will mess up the entire copy. You can really like add a word if they've missed something or take away a word, that's pretty much it.
00:27:17
Speaker
Is this also the phase if your book needs
Sensitivity Readers: When and Why?
00:27:19
Speaker
a sensitivity reader, it would be during this part of the process? um No, I think it would happen earlier. So ah yeah, i have a I've never used sensitivity reader, but I do have a project where we're going to use a sensitivity reader. And I know that in the developmental stages, they've said they're going to start looking for a sensitivity reader. So I would assume the part, and also often a sensitivity reader might not read the full project. They might just read the section that's important in the project. So I would assume it's after line edit, maybe working with or before the copy. I could be wrong, but it'll definitely be earlier than proof because they might have to change something fairly major if you've missed something. Yeah, that that makes sense.
00:28:02
Speaker
I was just gonna say, I love the proofreading because- It's so good, isn't it? Yeah, because it's the first step in production. So you've moved away from editorial. You're now in production and and you get a production manager who who like, they'll typeset your book and you'll get to see what it actually looks like. And that is the best feeling. And on book two, so so Chicken House have this lovely production manager called Esther. and um And by the time I made it to Esther on book two, I was like, it's so nice to see you. I know the worst is behind me.
00:28:33
Speaker
It is done. Yeah. and You're moving into this lovely phase where somebody else is like pulling all the strings and doing all the work hard work for you pretty much. And they're just going to make it go away and make it look pretty for you. Okay. Which is which is the trickiest stage of editing? Copy. Dev.
00:28:51
Speaker
oh I hate copy editing. I remembered that Naomi hated copy editing. yeah it's not james coming back
00:29:02
Speaker
They're a talented editor who has a very eagle eye. And they're very detail orientated and basically the complete opposite of me. And I'm just like, this isn't important. This isn't this doesn't make an effect plot. And they're like, no, no, it's important. and That's fair. They do point out things that, honestly, you have read it 50,000 times by this point and have never been bothered by it, never noticed. And they're like, this is wrong. And a small part of you is like, well, yes, it is technically wrong. I guess it might be wrong, but also does it really matter? And yeah, they're like, yeah, no, it doesn't.
00:29:37
Speaker
Yeah, I get that. But I also assume the stages are very dependent on what sort of a writer you are and what kind of book you're writing. Yeah, that's true. For example, I'm surprised that DevEdit is the one that you kind of immediately said, Melissa, because your stuff is so intricately planned, I would assume that your DevEdits would be minor.
00:29:59
Speaker
Yeah, so that I've never had to change any plot points in my dev edits. So that's good. I like those things. I struggle with more as a plotter because I'm not. So the writing is when you get to know light your characters. It's quite hard to get to know somebody that you've never spoken to. If you think of it like that, you're kind of just researching them on the internet like a creepy stalker. You're not actually going to get to know them. are you You need to hide in the bin outside the house. Don't do that. You don't need to do that. But you do need to sort of interact with the characters, right? So because I'm such an intricate plotter, my first draft, usually the plot is really solid. Like I will even admit as somebody with zero self-confidence, the plot is very solid, but the characters usually need a bit more work. um So it'll be, my dev edits will be things like, so the ones I gave were pretty much ones I've been given. so
00:30:46
Speaker
slowing down the romance as an example and I just find them so fiddly because say you will slow down the romance and it means you have to go through and find every instance of them ever talking in the entire manuscript and change elements of the conversation to be slightly different and I find that really difficult or you know they'll say oh it'd be really good if this character could come in more so then you have to go through and in every single scene find an area where that character could come in And I find it's like pulling threads on a jumper. and The problem is you'll go through and make something work. You'll be like, that's great. I've made that all work now. And then you'll read it back through. And there are chunks that don't ah make sense anymore. Because it's like, oh, they'd already kissed by this bit, but at this bit they haven't kissed and haven't admitted how they feel. So I've got to change this entire conversation.
00:31:29
Speaker
that she has with her friend, say. And that's what I don't like about it. I hate how it feels like it gets worse. Like dev edits feels like the bit where you've got this shiny manuscript. Your agent's been through it. It's gone off. It's been bought by a publisher. It's clearly the most shiny, perfect thing of all time. And then they go, okay, we're going to pull it apart. And it's horrible. And you have to like put it all back together. And you know, you've not, you know, it's going to get worse before it gets better. yeah That's why I don't like dev edit. I found it the hardest.
00:31:58
Speaker
because I don't like having to, I never reread books, I'll be honest, I'm not a reread book person, so ah rereading your own book, how embarrassing, how not demure, or how not mindful, like how fringe. I do really think so. I find it cringy in my own book. Like, who do I think I, again, this is probably impossible. Who do I think I am?
00:32:15
Speaker
you might widow I've just written it and I'm like, can't wait to read it. And chapter one, it just feels weird to me. So yeah, it's my least favourite. Like, i yeah, the edit is incredibly difficult for me. And then the rest of it I quite like because it starts, the first ever edit is the worst, then it starts to get put back together again. And it's nice and neat as it goes. But yeah, it's just the least shiny bit. Yeah. Is that your experience, not me?
00:32:39
Speaker
No, I quite like them. I think it's the point where someone comes in and tells you how to make it better and you're like, yes, let's do it. And and so I don't mind. um but yeah It is satisfying at the end, I will admit. It's very satisfying. And I like it because after you're through it, and you're right, it's very messy, and it's like a jigsaw puzzle, and it's really hard to do. But it's just really the other side of it. um You're holding this thing and it's so much more like a book than it's ever been before. And yeah then you're like and the level of level of pride that I feel like this
Plotters vs Discovery Writers: How Do Dev Edits Differ?
00:33:12
Speaker
is great. This is going to take over the world. This is brilliant. you know And I don't know, it's just, it's so satisfying. um I really, I really enjoyed Dev edits. It's interesting.
00:33:22
Speaker
I imagine, I think it's um ah Brando Sando said in one of his lectures, in his experience, writers who um plot will often have, as you'd imagine, much more kind of um robust plots throughout, and they'll kind of work very well versus writers, but their their characters do tend to suffer because of the the characters are basically fitting into the plot, whereas discovery writers,
00:33:51
Speaker
like, you know, me tend to focus on a character. And so when it comes to the dev edits, I imagine the plots aren't quite as robust, but the characters are very much have like a strong sense of self and exist there. So I bet your dev edits look ah very different to Melissa's. Yeah, I think that's definitely true. a lot That's a really good point. yeah I think dev edits is the thing that will look the most different from author to author. Yeah.
00:34:16
Speaker
because obviously it depends how how much and what parts of it you have to work on. So like when you get your report, it will be split into sections. So it'll be like a plot section, yeah and a romance section, an exposition section, and it'll be how how poorly you have tackled each of the elements of your book. And it'll just be like a whole report on it. I feel like the dev edits is, oh God, I'm going to horribly misquote Dorothy Parker, but I think she said, I hate to write, but I love having written. I hate to do dev edits, but I love having done the dev edits. It's so shiny.
00:34:50
Speaker
Yeah, I think that's, I think that's fair. I do think there is some truth in that, that like discovery writers focus on character, plan is focus on plot. Yeah, I very much follow my characters around.
00:35:05
Speaker
Because I guess that's your, your process is that right? You've created the character and put them in a situation. And I think you said when you've been on the right and wrong podcast, like the thing that you do, if you're stuck is you're like, okay, well, how can I get someone else to just mess with my protagonist? yeah absolutely yeah it always gets me by ah um So once the editing phase, how long does the editing phase take first of all?
Timing and Scheduling in the Publishing Process
00:35:30
Speaker
And I'm sure actually this obviously varies, but Yeah, um I've got had a timetable where so the dev edit was like couple of months and then maybe there might be a quick second round to pick up some little bits that might be like a month. And then you so the funny thing is it depends what your timetable is like. So at the minute, I think I'm hearing more and more that publishers are giving out, you know, two, three year
00:36:00
Speaker
deals so it'll be you know you sign in 2024 you might not see it until early 2027 in some places depending on what their and schedules like so on those you probably might have a bit more time I do know some people that write like Christmas books so they really only have like a year each year to write the next Christmas book so there's a really tight and sometimes you can have a lot I've seen line edit just turn around hasn't happened to me but I have seen it in my groups which are like a week Yeah, you've got a week and if you have a full-time job and two kids who are on summer holidays, no chance. How are you going to do it? It's awful. In a week. Whereas um I've actually usually had two to four weeks. I'm an absolute nerd and I always handed my edits early. I've never handed them in on time or late. So I'm an absolute nerd for that and will not i just I just have anxiety about being late about things.
00:36:51
Speaker
um Whereas that's not common. Loads of people I know need extensions and deadlines and and talk to the raging editor. And obviously like you can talk to them, don't just leave it and it's fine. They can usually get an extension. But yeah, the problem is it varies so much. For me, it's always been fairly doable. So it's been like a couple of months and then maybe a month for line, maybe another month for copy and then proof. Usually they don't give you that long, but also they know there's nothing really to improve. Like it's like a week or two maybe. like they They know they've pretty much nailed it. They're giving it you as like a courtesy. They're like, this is what we're going to put out. This is the product, but like it's ours now. No, I'm joking. They're like, this is pretty much exactly as it's going to be. so It can be quite long, but that dear don't be surprised. like Honestly, they can sometimes just turn around and be like, you've got two weeks to do this and it's quite scary.
00:37:37
Speaker
Okay. Because obviously they, if they're looking at a certain release date, which will fit within their schedule, which is to do with the seasonality as well as like what they've got coming out, you know, publishers can't be competing with themselves, this, that, the other. yes um Yeah. You need that, all the edits need to be finished within a certain, how much time approximately is it? Like how much time is it from proof until release day?
00:38:03
Speaker
Oh, that's an interesting one because I think, I don't know if Naomi will agree with this, but I think it depends on, if you've written like a really high fantasy book and we're given a six figure deal, I see them. So we're talking about, um, proofs is another word for advanced reader copies, right? So advanced reader a copy will often say on it, not being corrected. What that basically means is they usually send that out somewhere around line or copy, sometimes after line edit. So it's not been, it's pretty much there. but it hasn't had the really pedantic person telling you how many floors the building is or it might have the odd typo in it and it'll say that across the front and sometimes proves if you're like six figure fancy want to get in all the book boxes they might go out a year in advance. yeah So yeah you're still working on your you know little tiny bitty editing where you're going through and checking everything makes sense and doing your typos but the book is kind of going out in some form like a year or so in advance
00:38:56
Speaker
That's not abnormal, but to actually, when you finish, I mean, finished copies, they like to have a good few months before it goes out to shops. I've never had proofs, but I've had finished copies and usually they're four to six months beforehand. They're like finished.
00:39:12
Speaker
Okay. Yeah. At which point. So next week we're going to be talking about what happens when the book actually comes out, launch events, marketing promotion, all that jazz. So I'm just curious what's the kind of ah more about mentality than anything else. What did you, what did you guys do between like I finished editing this book. You as the author, you're done with this book until it comes out. You have three to four months. What are you doing in that time?
00:39:44
Speaker
writing something else. Yeah. That's what you're supposed to do. No, I'm, I'm being serious because, because so I was just into your deadlines that you were just saying then, Melva. And I think yeah mine, mine for book one were a lot more generous than mine for book two. Oh yeah, that's a good point. Yeah. And so you're on to book two, probably whilst your first one has been printed.
00:40:06
Speaker
Yes, that is that's true actually, or possibly even earlier. but so that's a multibook deal yeah if Yeah, if you've got like a two or a three book deal, let's say you're probably going to be working on the next book whilst that one is is sent to the printer probably. So I think you probably will be working on something else. And If you're not, and if you don't have another book deal, then you you should be working on something else because it takes so long to get a book deal. It takes so long to go through the publishing wheelhouse that the sooner you write something, um yeah, I just advise it. yeah
00:40:40
Speaker
Yeah, that's a really good point. hunt Yeah, you're right. My second book was, I was not on a multi-book deal, but I was keen to make sure I got something out the following year. so Yeah, that's it. So that capitalized on momentum, etc.
The Role of Marketing: When Should It Start?
00:40:51
Speaker
So there was 11 months between me signing the contract for soulmates and it coming out.
00:40:56
Speaker
Yeah, that's really good. That's tight, yeah. Because obviously you need enough time to, you know, stir up some, like, even if you don't have a huge billboard um on the side of a bus, it doesn't mean you're not doing any marketing at all. They are still sending it, especially in Kidlet, for instance, they're sending it out to and teachers and librarians, they're sending it out to review websites, and they need to go out vaguely early because people book up in advance and they need time to read the book.
00:41:20
Speaker
um So I think this is something that comes up a lot when people talk about like self-publishing and they're like, oh, one of the pros of self-publishing is that you can put the book up now on Kindle. You can put it up right now. And yeah, it's awesome. It gives you so much power. I totally get it. But I do understand why traditional publishers, and it'd be interesting if some self-publishing people maybe start doing this or maybe they already do. I don't know anything about self-publishing world.
00:41:43
Speaker
and look at the deadlines of, you know, well, if I announce a year in advance, and it gives me time to build up pre-orders, which will go towards your first week of sales, which means that you're going to be talking about the book. And if it's a series, you've written the second one, so you can start and publicizing what's maybe going to continue as a storyline from the first one. So there is a lot to be done. As I say, if you want to get in a book box, it surely needs to go out a year in advance, because there's only 12 a year, right? So there's certain things that are happening that you're not doing at all.
00:42:13
Speaker
that the publisher are doing and they need lots and lots of time. So it does make sense, but it makes you so impatient with book one. Like you look much less impatient with book two because you've already got one out and you understand why they need so much time. With book one, you're just desperate to be a published author and you're like, why is this taking so long? I could have done this quicker. It but I do get it.
00:42:34
Speaker
Yeah, i've spoken to I was to an author just the other day um on Right and Wrong who's a hybrid author. And in some ways I was just thinking, this is the dream. You have the one like yeah publishing deal and she has two different series and one series she publishes herself. The other series is signed with a ah ah it's a digital only publisher.
00:42:57
Speaker
But it means that if she does one a year on the and with the publisher, I come over for two year, and then she can, whenever she wants, do her ones. So she can do like one, two, three a year, write as much or as little as you want. And then also she's free to kind of not have to tick certain boxes with her own one, but also learning from the publisher where she works with the the what the what kind of She'll learn a lot more about the market and and the kind of things that you need to do within the market, what's popular right now through her signed book deal. If you can make it work, it's a great and that's a great way to to be doing stuff. tandem yeah And then obviously she's getting a much bigger piece of the each sale through the self-published stuff. Yeah, because someone's doing her marketing and PR for her and she's
00:43:47
Speaker
riding off the back of it with something else that's really clever. Yeah. yeah yeah it's it's it It's definitely ah the dream, especially because it's just, there's so much waiting. Like I know we spoke like first few episodes just feels like it's all waiting and then you get to be published and they're like, you know, your publication date is in two years time.
00:44:05
Speaker
And when you're doing the edit, what's really funny is when you're doing the edits, you start to think, okay, yeah, to yourself, like, you know, I'm really busy with these edits, and they're very intense. And it's hard, you know, editing a book, it's scary, because you're you're thinking you start to think more and more like, Oh, God, people are going to read this, and I want to be proud of what I'm putting out.
00:44:22
Speaker
So you do work really hard on it. You're the person who cares about your book the most, obviously. um And then of course you finish the edits. And as I say, there's this period where they're doing loads of stuff, but there's really nothing for you to do. Like there's nothing for you to do. And especially if it's not been announced yet. So you're just kind of sat there. Like, I mean, you you might get the cover at some point. That's really fun. The bit where you get the cover, ah we could talk about that. But apart from that, you're not really doing anything. And then people are asking you, your auntie's like, Oh, didn't you sell that book like a year ago? What are you doing?
00:44:52
Speaker
Where's the book? You're like, I cannot argue with your logic because you are correct. I do not know where the book is. I don't really know what I'm doing. So you do just have to think of your career as a longevity exercise and just keep writing the next thing.
The Value of Editing: Initial Perceptions vs Reality
00:45:04
Speaker
Especially when you only have a one book contract like I did, you just have to kind of pretend you don't find the next one and hope for the best. Yeah, you do. Yeah, it's a marathon for sure, not a sprint.
00:45:15
Speaker
I thought we could wrap things up just by going through Melissa's random thoughts that she put on our text chain. my drum
00:45:28
Speaker
we've We've sort of touched on all of these, but this is more in the sort of format of like ah misconceptions and and the way that people perceive these kind this kind of stage having not actually done it yet. So number one, you've got Your book is perfect enough to be picked up so it doesn't need editing. Yeah, obviously that's true for all of us. If that's not you, then you just really suck at writing and you're not like the rest of us. Really cool. It's not as talented. Just not as amazingly talented as us. Yeah, no, that's not. Oh God.
00:46:01
Speaker
it is It's so embarrassing because honestly I feel like you worked so hard on it and then you sent it out on submission and then obviously all these editors have read it. you get I mean if you get an auction but I've only ever had one offer at a time. you know As if you read it and then you're reading it back after months of not looking at it because it takes forever to sell. It takes months and months to sell and you're thinking oh my god I sent this out like this.
00:46:21
Speaker
Especially working through dev edits. Yeah, when I'm working through dev edits and I realize how much better it is after dev edits, like it's so much better. And I think, ah, if I said, maybe this would have got an auction. I mean, this version would be, yeah, you have so many edits to do and they're good. They're good things. Like I think a lot of people, because they're thinking I've already worked really hard on this book and also you have no perspective at all because you're the only one really reading the book. I know you might have beta readers, et cetera.
00:46:46
Speaker
But there's no dedicated team who care in a financial way about your book, like when you sell it. And so when you're reading it back through, I do think you realise, yeah, this did still need some editing. This is now a product of me working together with somebody else who cares as much as I do about this book.
00:47:05
Speaker
So yeah, it makes sense when you're there, but beforehand you are thinking, what are they going to say in this editorial meeting? Because I've spent ages on this book and it's really good. So it's going to cost me half to say it's perfect. And it's definitely worth pointing out without naming any names. I'm sure if you've, if you read it a lot or you're kind of familiar with publishing generally, you'll be able to think of a few authors who you loved their first few books and then they became much bigger as a brand. And you notice that their books get longer and longer. And maybe their books don't, they aren't they aren't quite so concise. They aren't quite so direct in their approach. And I think it's clear when the author is sort of saying, no, I don't think this needs editing anymore. Just send it to print because they have that kind of sway.
00:47:56
Speaker
Yeah. Well, maybe the editor, like you imagine being like, okay, so, um, he gave, just started working at big five press number five. And, uh, here is Stephen King's latest book. You need to line it. God, you panic. You'd be like, who am I to edit this book? To edit Stephen King. Yeah. Like, can you imagine?
00:48:15
Speaker
Oh, yeah, I'm just going to edit Stephen King. He needs editing, please. so Steve, can I call you Steve? I really don't like this bit here. I'm so sorry, Mr. King. I don't know what I was thinking here. It's fine. I sent it straight to print. Like, don't worry about it. Yeah, we decided just to skip editing. we You obviously don't need it.
00:48:33
Speaker
but yeah I can't imagine what that's like. That comes down to your relationship doesn't it with your editor? Like you've yeah got to know each other quite well. I've been working together for a few years I think. Yeah, you don't want to take over maternity leave from Stephen King's.
00:48:49
Speaker
It's only 800 pages, you'll be fine. But also, like there's a lot of you know ah lot is very famous authors, and like this goes outside of publishing as well, do stay humble and and say, like no, my my editor like without my I be nothing, I wouldn't make these books. like Famously, it's not books, but ah there's an interview with George Lucas where he was talking about the Star Wars prequels.
00:49:12
Speaker
And he has said, like, he regrets a lot about it. And largely it was because he'd had so much success with the first trilogy that basically he was surrounded by people saying, yes, it's great. Yes, it's great. Yes, it's great. And he he needed someone to challenge him. So he needed an editor to basically be there and say, no, you're you're going a bit too far with this Jar Jar Binks character.
00:49:37
Speaker
That's funny. um Next up you had, and we we we kind of just touched on this, is ah this time next year you will be holding your book. In a perfect world.
Waiting for Release: The Long Road After a Deal
00:49:50
Speaker
Well, maybe for book two. This time next decade. Maybe for book two. Yeah, 11 months. Yeah, I mean, yeah, yeah. The weighting is just, and also you sometimes feel like, you know, we've got a cover. And I remember I printed out my, did you ever do this near me? I printed out my cover because they send you the cover and sometimes it has around the edge, like, so it'll send you like the back and the spine as well.
00:50:12
Speaker
so yeah um it shows you like what the book will look like and don't get around they might still tweak it even at this stage but they'll send it you're like yeah we think we're really like nailing how it's going to look and i printed mine off i tried to look at like the dimensions of an actual book because it said the dimensions are on the edge of like how wide the spine would be and then i just like wrapped it around some other book Oh, that's such a good idea. Stephen King, apparently, his name was. I'm going to do that. I'm going to wrap it round. Yeah, and then it feels like a real book. You can hold it like months before you get it. So yeah, it's sad waiting. And it's so cool when you open, everyone must have seen, if anyone listens to this podcast will have seen like authors opening their books, like boxes. It never gets old. It's always nice. I love a good unboxing video. It's so good.
00:50:54
Speaker
But realistically, it can happen within a year of like this whole process beginning. It's unlikely. That would be fast. That would be... Especially for a debut, like talking fa generally. Yeah, that's not happening. In fact, if it is, that would be a red flag. If that you get sort of an offer and they said, that's a very who would do this apart from a red flag company would say, yeah, yeah. So we're thinking this time next year ah out on shelves, that would be a red flag. Yeah. Yeah. And I said like a startup or something that's probably very unrealistic.
00:51:23
Speaker
Yeah, yeah. If you get a multiple deal, book two and three, probably within a year, but book one, definitely not. Yep. Yeah, unless you're digital first, that could happen because then you're on print on demand. You have to buy it yourself though. The whole marketing system seems to be completely different as well for that kind of stuff. Whereas the marketing that they're doing, they're sending out physical copies of your book to various places and trying to persuade people on the physical look of the book and it's just not going to happen in a year.
00:51:54
Speaker
yeah yeah ah Next up you had, the waiting is over because now you have an editor. I mean, that editor has 10 other authors. Yeah, like at least. Are you kidding? And they might be as i I was making a joke about maternity leave, but there's a lot of women in the industry. Maternity leave does happen. Yeah. And you end up for all for other reasons, to be honest, that there could be a million reasons why you get possibly passed to a different editor. And so they've suddenly taken on an extra five books because maybe the other editors had to ah maybe they've moved job, maybe they've left for some reason. And you can end up maybe going through more than one editor within a book.
00:52:34
Speaker
Yeah. I know people have had like four or five editors and one book because you know, people have lives. Yeah. um Yeah. So there's always waiting. That might be a reason for waiting. Your schedule, I think as well. ah Yes. If so, let's say you're slated for like September.
00:52:52
Speaker
They might just decide one day, no, no, you're going to be the following January. You know, that happened to me twice, actually. I was moved twice for for my true debut. You just, you just you don't really have any control over it unless you really want to kick up a fuss with it. But you know, this is a relationship you've got to develop with these people.
00:53:07
Speaker
and you want to work with them long-term, so you're probably better off sitting and taking it, which means your publication date can can get moved whenever they think is best. Because ah let's say this publishing house, like they publish, let's say four YA books a year, you know they're going to move them around a bit if they want to, depending on what they think will be better. Let's say they've got a spooky book, they want that one to come out in October, so they're going to move you so you don't clash with them.
00:53:32
Speaker
you know yes you know And it can move the other way as well. Like sometimes you think you have more time and you do not. So when I originally signed my contract, and because I already had a relationship with the publisher for the second book, they were like, yep, ah you know, we'll probably be looking at the books. Oh, yeah, probably be like late, you know, 24 now, be like later in 2024. And I was like, yeah, that's fine. And then we were in a meeting one day and it was like, so we're thinking ah we could do this Valentine's Day giveaway because with the book coming out in March, I was like,
00:54:05
Speaker
Yes. Not August or September, like we were originally thinking. So sometimes it moves the other way as well. and Yeah. each to never Yeah. Yeah. So mine was moved forward probably because I handed everything early because I'm a nut, brought it on myself.
00:54:21
Speaker
so like Um, this, this next one is kind of ties back to the, to the previous one that we did, which was, uh, you'll be announcing your book to the world tomorrow. ah Definitely not. 20 months to announce my book. waty I think it was something ridiculous like that well was really coming out earlier or something. am i yeah So it was going to come out March 20.
00:54:51
Speaker
one i said What year did we debut? Was it 2021? You came out 21. We came out 21, yeah. I think it was going to be like February or March 2021. And then obviously COVID was still a thing. and And it got moved to, I think April and then it got moved again to like August. Because people kept thinking, this will go away. It'll be fine. So they just kept moving everything. about things yeah So you're sitting on that, the kind of secret of and the fact that you have a book coming out for almost two years. Yes, it was. Yeah, mine was almost two years as well. Yeah. Yeah. It's this huge thing. You know, you've just won the lottery and you want everyone to know, but you're not really supposed to talk about it and you can't say anything on social media because the publisher wants the ah the announcement to be the opportune moment. They want it to be strategic. They want it to work with your schedule.
00:55:42
Speaker
So you wouldn't announce ah like a year in advance because everyone's going to forget about it by the time it comes out. So exactly the announcement has to be strategic. So if your publication date gets moved, they're not going to announce.
00:55:54
Speaker
you know Yes and like we've all looked forward to we've all seen something you know like for instance like Disney and Marvel are obsessed with announcing like their 10-year plan and you see a film and you're like I'm really excited for that I can't believe it's like three four years away and then of course what happens is suddenly everyone's like have you seen that film yet you're like how has three or four years passed I can't see all the time And I just didn't even remember that that was coming out. So imagine that, but times a million because you are an unknown debut author, so nobody's going to be that excited about you. But your friends will be, of course, in your writing community, and it's really lovely, but no one knows who you are. You are complete nobody. So you really can't announce that far out. For instance, you can't you don't really want to be announcing before the pre-order link's up. And for the pre-order link up, you need to know how long the book is, how many pages in order to register it. And and in order to know how many pages there is, you have to finish the proof.
00:56:43
Speaker
So it's quite long. Yeah, I get it. yeah And you see it in all all the industries as well. I think in video games, especially, they've cut back on it because they used to... There was a time a few years ago where they were announcing games like three, four years in advance and everyone was like, why? You just got me all excited by this trailer and the game's not out forever. yeah Stupid. I mean, Bethesda announced Elder Scrolls VI like five years ago. It's ridiculous.
00:57:14
Speaker
Why? I'm still going to wait another five years for it. It's ridiculous. Yeah. yeah We're going to be collecting our pensions by the time that game comes out.
00:57:26
Speaker
All right. The last one Melissa had was, you will automatically never feel imposter syndrome again now that the publishing gods have anointed
Imposter Syndrome and Peer Comparison in Publishing
00:57:35
Speaker
you. No trauma at all. I feel like I've spent the whole podcast talking about my imposter syndrome. That's what, this is just therapy now, this podcast. Yeah. I feel like it can be better. And there are times where you feel better. And I think sometimes it can feel 10 times worse because, okay, I give a really good example. So I won't say which book, et cetera, because I can't give away publishing secrets. Again, not being allowed to talk about things, just ridiculous. But one of my books, um, is slash was coming out at the same time as somebody else, a very, very big author has announced their book.
00:58:14
Speaker
is slash was coming out. And so then I was suddenly like, oh my God. Or like, so on one hand, one week you might be like, this could hit the New York Times bestseller list, even though it's not even sold in the US. I'm still thinking this because these ah this could be the biggest book full time. And then someone else goes, oh yeah, hi, big, huge author here. I'm going to release ah my book that day or that month or whatever. And you're thinking, what?
00:58:37
Speaker
that's going to spoil my chances as if the chance was ever there and of becoming the top of the New York Times bestseller list. So I think, um yeah, you get, I just find it, it's even worse than when I'm on um submission. I just find it's really highs and lows. Like sometimes I feel like this is the best book ever. I've just finished an edit, you know, like it's so shiny now. Everyone's going to read this. Everyone's going to be interested in this. It's so fun to read. And then yeah, something will happen.
00:59:04
Speaker
and you'll hit you'll talk to someone in your submission group. And they'll be like, yeah, so, you know, they've only offered me 30,000 for the next book. And I'm just not sure if I'm going to stay. You'll start there with nowhere near 30,000, like, oh, or they'll say, oh, they really want me to do this book tour, but I just don't know if I have the energy to do it. You're thinking, oh, I didn't have a book tour. So I don't know. I feel like sometimes it can be even worse, but there can be highs as well. But I think that's why the lows feel so low sometimes.
00:59:33
Speaker
I agree. It's definitely a roller coaster. And the group, I think group chats like that are more positive than they are negative, but you can't help but compare. um Yeah, it's a double-edged sword. It is very much because people are like, like you say here, like, oh, I've got this, this and this coming up, and I just can't be bothered. And I'm like, yeah, okay.
00:59:51
Speaker
oh you I'm not even trying to say it in like, it like I've been in group chats where people genuinely didn't realise everyone else was on so little money, for instance, yeah when they were complaining about something or they genuine and then they're mortified. So they don't know because we're not allowed to talk about anything. you know We don't talk about these things, but yeah, it can be really difficult. The comparison game is hell once you get into publishing. It's horrible. You know, I've got friends that, you know, they're all with the same publisher. They're all paid wildly different amounts, especially in the big five. You just pay such what, you know, there's someone there with six figures. There's someone there with five grand. There's someone there and it's a nightmare. i think You know, the two of their books come out on the same day and the publisher maybe talks about one book, but doesn't even send out a cursory tweet.
01:00:35
Speaker
about the sport. It's not happened to me, but oh gosh, yeah. The disparity is real. It's just, yeah, it's awful, really awful. Yeah, but I've spoken to a lot of authors. I remember especially and Liz Fenwick, who's huge in romance, very successful. And she has been for many, many years. i see about real time Tons of books. And she she was saying every time she starts a new novel, she the imposter syndrome comes back, like it never goes away. She still gets that like, oh no, this is the one where they're going to realize that I'm a fraud and I can't do this again. But like,
01:01:15
Speaker
It's, you know, it doesn't matter how successful you are. It's such a hard thing to shake. Yeah, it really is. And like, it's like every time you start a book, you think, I'm pretty sure I've never done this before. I don't know how, who did I pray to last time? Like, just gave me a fully formed book because I'm pretty sure I've never written one. Oh, it's bad. Like, I don't know if it's just the personality type that's attracted to writing. I've no idea, but oh.
01:01:40
Speaker
Because it's scary, but I think it's because it's so honest and exposing writing, even though you were like, you know, you could be writing the most unhinged fiction, but it's still, there's something very raw about your words being on the page. You feel very exposed, putting them out to the world. And then people kind of basically paying to pass judgment on your words.
01:02:02
Speaker
yeah Interestingly, I never had imposter syndrome and until much later. so Interesting. okay So it's contagious. Yeah, maybe. But like i i i never I've never struggled with it. When I was being winded by my publisher, I was like, I've got my seat at the table. I belong here. I felt really comfortable. um I was really grateful, obviously, not to say that I'm not grateful.
01:02:30
Speaker
but I was just like, yes, this is this is what was meant to happen because I am a writer and this is what happens to writers. and yeah However, going down that, um down my journey, I've discovered that actually the more that I know, the less secure I feel because when I was doing it and I was querying, I was called querying these agents with these terrible query letters and you know, they were giving me the time of day um and I got calls and I got responses, I got good feedback or well, bad feedback, but like, um you know, I got feedback.
01:02:58
Speaker
mean back here and And then, and now down the road, I'm like, I know the game inside out now. And I know all the pitfalls and I know what can go wrong and I know how horrible it can be. And now I feel insecure about it, but I think because before I didn't know anything about it. I didn't know what I was doing. So I just kept doing it and I just, you know, I felt fine. But now it's like, oh, okay.
01:03:19
Speaker
Ignorance is bliss. Yeah. Maybe mine came in earlier purely because I was on submission for so long with so many projects. I had to switch agent and stuff like that. Like maybe that's why I crept in Get to get to in the end.
01:03:40
Speaker
All right. Let's round it off. um What are you guys watching? What are you guys reading? What's new? Oh, right. Yeah, shit. Uh, so stakes in the whole episode. I'm not doing my homework. I am watching. Oh my God. The oldest show ever. Do you know what? I've started watching and never seen it. I can't believe I never saw it. Natural. Supernatural.
01:04:06
Speaker
see that seems pure allli i know i I can't believe you haven't watched it. I can't believe I haven't watched it. It was out like at the time when I would have loved it as a teenager. I don't want someone I wasn't watching it. Anyway, so watching Supernatural, just like wasting my life because there are a hundred million episodes, but obviously not wasting my life because it's amazing.
01:04:24
Speaker
Um, also watching Agatha all along because Scott was on and a friend reminded me and totally forgot about it. And I am reading, I feel like I've said this before, it was on my TBR, but I'm actually reading it now. Um, Ministry of Time by Kaylee Ann Bradley. Oh, are you enjoying it?
01:04:43
Speaker
Yeah. And then ah my agent is in the acknowledgments, which is quite cute. She's not her agent, but it's nice. Yeah, it's good. and what What I love about it is it's like really lyrically and beautifully written, like nothing I would ever write. So the opposite of my writing is so lyrical and so pretty and like some of the comparisons like, wow, that is so profound and cool and interesting and like nothing I would ever write. So it's quite an interesting experience for me because usually I pick books similar to what I like to write.
01:05:12
Speaker
and they're like action-packed and very like cinematic and you know like that kind of stuff and I'm i'm pretty much borrowing stuff in my head as I'm reading it like that's that's such a good line I'm going to write that down up I'll take that note I'll obviously change it a little bit um but yeah I'm always like looking for stuff like oh that's such a great character I'd love to write a character like that etc and this is something that I wouldn't but I am obsessed with the Terra and the Erebus expedition to the Arctic because this is one of my specialist subjects for some reason. I love Arctic travel and and that's what they focus on. So I'm loving the Arctic travel elements because I love that stuff. I was obsessed with Captain Scott as a child.
01:05:48
Speaker
what meeting and to this any childhood childhood and arctic expeditions where people go missing and die and eat each other my love sex um yeah so that see yeah i've got so much I'm just watching really old things and reading really new things. Look at me.
01:06:03
Speaker
The whole spectrum. And you're watching new things. We're watching Agatha all along as well. And let me tell you, it's so funny. Gabby, my wife is not that interested in Marvel. She's like, it's kind of whatever to her. The amount she was in, and this isn't a spoiler. It's like just the first episode. It starts off as if it's going to be like a gritty small town detective show.
01:06:28
Speaker
Okay, yeah. Her investment level at an all-time high for any Marvel show, that's about three quarters of the way through, when it all kind of snapped back out, I could see her face just be like, ugh. No, the story's begun.
01:06:44
Speaker
Oh no, it's magic and silliness again. and honey She was here for the murders really. that um i I've been a bit of a rut recently reading. I still haven't started reading tomorrow and tomorrow and tomorrow.
01:07:02
Speaker
But see I did break out of it because I read The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy, which I've been meaning to reread. I haven't read it for like 20 years. So I was finally reread it. What a delight. What an absolute treat of a book. And I'm going to read all of the trilogy of five now, I think. Nice. What about you, Naomi? What have you been up to?
01:07:25
Speaker
Um, I recently read my dark Vanessa, which is, um, I think you told us about that one. Yeah. I feel like we did Yeah. It was, it was, I think it was a 2020 book. So yeah it's been on my list for a while, but I didn't want to read it because, um, it's about a subject that one day I wanted to write.
Maintaining Originality in Writing and Editing
01:07:46
Speaker
So I didn't want to spit, read hers and spit it back out. Um, so.
01:07:51
Speaker
I am editing something at the moment which has like a similar theme, and I thought I'm going to read this now because I'm at the point where I've written mine. um But now I'm editing, and I just want to see how she did certain things.
01:08:06
Speaker
so um I have read that and it it was really educational actually um and beautifully written. And like, so it was just like a stark examination of abuse. It was really, really interesting. um And I read it in like one big gulp. So now I'm off to you edit mine. I need to read something else and I'm going to edit mine. But and yeah, I tend not to to read when when I draft, but I tend to read a lot when I edit. So I think I'm in that little phase at the moment. So.
01:08:35
Speaker
Okay. and To kind of not get subconsciously influenced and as a discovery writer. Yeah, I think so. But also when I, when I draft, I do, it does seem to be like a bit of a fever dream. I do it very, very quickly. And I just don't really have time to, to read and do anything else. Cause I'm just. Yeah. Yeah. Especially on Kindle. Like if you're writing on a screen and then you're reading a book on Kindle, it is quite tough. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. yeah lets give your brain a break
Looking Ahead: Marketing and Promotions Discussion Next Week
01:09:02
Speaker
Awesome. Well, that wraps that up. Next week, we're going to talk about books coming out and what it's like doing promotion and marketing and all that fun jazz. um So yeah, we'll see you then.
01:09:15
Speaker
Thanks for putting up with our nonsense for another episode. To stay tuned to everything we're