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S5.E1 - The Gatekeepers of Publishing
22 Plays2 hours ago
We're back for a new season all about publishing and in the first episode we are chatting about gatekeepers and the various hurdles they represent!
- Naomi Gibson, author of Every Line of You, Game Over Girl, Man Muse Monster
- Melissa Welliver, author of The Undying Tower, My Love Life and the Apocalypse, Soulmates and Other Ways to Die, To the Death
- Jamie Greenwood, creator & host of the Write and Wrong Podcast
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Transcript
Introduction & Listener Engagement
00:00:00
Speaker
Hello, we would love to hear from you. If you have any stories or anecdotes about publishing, good or bad, we would love to hear about them and we'll talk about them. Or if you just have any questions or if you think it's anything we missed in in this episode or any of the previous episodes, reach out to us. You can find all of us on social media, on Instagram, or wherever it might be, or you can head it to the Right and Wrong podcast website. Yeah, all our DMs are open. Send us messages, let us no you know what what you've been up to in publishing. We'd love to talk about it and and hear about it.
00:00:30
Speaker
Shrek and Christian Grey are different characters. Wow. You heard it here first. Absolutely finished it. After every episode was like, oh my gosh, I'm so angry at these toxic characters. Like, shove more food in my mouth, press next episode. Because I loved it, but obviously I hate it. This is so much fun. Because this is this my Malfoy-Himayla fan.
00:00:49
Speaker
Oh, yeah. She shouldn't have done that. I'm trying to make Neville happen.
Fun & Games with Reviews
00:00:54
Speaker
It's too
00:00:58
Speaker
like my so stop saying things that will get you cancelled i'll try my best we haven't done a one-star review in a while oh god naomi's favorite game oh
00:01:21
Speaker
let's do let's do a a really easy one Yes, let's do it really easily. I don't think we've done this one. I'm losing track of it though. um Okay, here's your one star review. Too much sex, not enough dragons.
00:01:36
Speaker
Game of Thrones? Yes. Oh, I got it! You did it! Good job.
00:01:44
Speaker
Good analysis. Woo I guess I agree if you're going into Game of Thrones hoping for dragons. That makes sense. Yeah, that's true. Very few dragons until later on. um Awesome.
Misconceptions & Gatekeeping in Publishing
00:01:56
Speaker
So new season, new us, new theme. And this season, we are going to try and tackle some of the misconceptions that a lot of people have ah in and and around publishing. um So each each week we're going to try and focus on a different title or topic. And then we'll kind of go deep and just chat and discuss and um probably go on lots of tangents about that thing.
00:02:27
Speaker
On this episode, the ah focus is going to be gatekeepers or perceived gatekeepers of the publishing industry. um So I guess if we start chronologically...
00:02:44
Speaker
from you as a writer entering publishing, the first gatekeeper that people perceive or will come face to face with will be in most cases agents. think. Level one boss.
00:02:59
Speaker
Exactly. Level one boss fight. The level one boss fight. When you guys were first getting into this industry, what did you think of agents? Did you think of them as like the gatekeepers into the industry?
00:03:13
Speaker
Yeah. It seemed like. Yeah. And also, which will be interesting as we go through, it definitely seemed like the hardest gatekeeper. But really, they're just the first gatekeeper. And it's like, yeah in the game, a very steep learning curve. and Yeah, I thought they were like, it's really difficult to say scary. Because actually, to be fair, i did loads of like, you know, like you can sign up for online chats. And obviously at Rite Mental, we do online chats with the agents. And also you can do like one-to-ones and stuff like that. And every agent I met was really nice.
00:03:42
Speaker
No mean ones or anything. still I don't know why I was scared of them. There was no reason to be. They were all very, very nice, like meeting them. no one was rude. No one gave me... really bad feedback or anything that would make me you know hide forever and never want to write again um but yeah i did think of them as like a really big scary fire breathing earkeeper to the thing I really wanted to do felt like without them I could not get into traditional publishing which as we've spoken about before is both true and untrue o I I thought the same I thought they were very scary definitely put them on a pedestal um couldn't believe it when Joe ran me um
00:04:19
Speaker
And then when she sent me her T&Cs, and I do not advise doing this, I didn't really even read them. I just signed them and sent them back because I was scared she'd change her mind. Jo has a time limit. Yeah, it was like within the hour. was like, here you It takes me back to use...
00:04:38
Speaker
I get that. I was talking to, there's an episode coming out soon on the, on the podcast. um And the author was saying that she had, um she had her first, like she, she'd been subbing for a while. She ah had had had a few falls, but this, when she had her first, like an agent called her and wanted to meet her and like grab a coffee with her, cause she happened to be local enough that they could do that.
00:05:02
Speaker
And she was like, so I spent the whole you know the whole like week before preparing, like getting ready to sell myself, getting ready to pitch, getting effort getting everything in line, ready to go.
00:05:13
Speaker
And then um the the the agent comes in and is basically there like um trying to basically begging her being like, please let me, I love this novel, please let me represent it, this, that and the other. And it's like that funny kind of um exchange where from the outside, you you just assume that the the agents are there kind of like going, you know, you really need to sell yourself to this. But a lot of the time the agents are like, oh my God, this is amazing. I must have this person.
00:05:44
Speaker
Yeah, that's actually very true. Yeah, yeah. When I ah met with my first agent, ah Tessa David, um I had two other like fools out and they sort of implied that they were quite keen to offer and to hold off until they'd read it type thing. And I'd only heard from them the day before. That typical thing of if you inform other agents, sometimes they have FOMO and so they swing into action. They're like actually, yeah, don't, don't say anything else.
00:06:07
Speaker
um but so yeah when I told Tessa that she was really keen to make sure that I understood that like she really really wanted the book and when I went in it was like talking to a fan of the book and she was like to talk about characters I didn't even remember writing and she's saying that all her ideas for the book and stuff and it it was a very strange reverse experience because yeah in my head You just think of agent says, well, I have so little time anyway, and I will deign to read your, and you will be lucky if I reply. And again, no reason I thought this because literally none of them say this. I don't know why you just getting your head so much. And you just imagine when they're sat there with your book and they've had a whole day of selling six figure deals. And then they look at your book and they say, are you worthy of being on my team? but you're absolutely right. They're like the total opposite. where you actually meet them.
00:06:55
Speaker
Yeah. That's so funny you should say, because that actually is something similar happened to me, like in the sense that I was talking to Cornerstones. Cornerstones did a report for me, like a beta read thing. And they liked it so much that they were going to start shopping it around. And I thought, I'll just let Jo know.
00:07:10
Speaker
and she called me so fast. um And she was like, no, no, let's talk. It was really funny. day bye my yeah Yeah, definitely works. Yeah.
00:07:21
Speaker
ah Yeah, I've heard a few stories. and A lot of it is the urgency um when when it comes to stuff like that. I think um they, you know, they have full intention of of reading your thing or like they've put it on a par where they're like oh, i need to finish reading that or something like that. but you have to think um from from the writer's perspective, like,
00:07:44
Speaker
you don't kind of realize that the agent is, will put in, if they're reading a whole manuscript, they're putting in some hours. Yeah. ah Even if they end up saying no, they're they're like not getting paid for that.
00:07:55
Speaker
That is like unpaid time that they are dedicating to just reading um your manuscript plus everyone else's manuscripts that they might potentially want to bring on as as a client. And, ah you know, there's a lot of them they'll pass on quite quick.
00:08:10
Speaker
But if they're asking for a full, I imagine they're always reading the full. Yeah, exactly. I imagine so, yeah, to make proper decision. I suppose unless like, because ah the thing is with the full, they'll have the synopsis as well. I do some judging in some competitions and we get the synopsis as well as the full. So I was going to say, well, maybe if they're not captured after those first three chapters, but actually if they've got the synopsis already and they know it's going in a really good direction, yeah, I suppose they must always read the full.
Editors' Role & Challenges
00:08:35
Speaker
Well, interesting thing about, so when when agents come on the on the podcast and nowadays i I usually have about one agent a month, I always ask how they approach query letters and that sort of thing, submissions. And I'll always ask sort of, most places have the the sort of standard is is you have your query letter, your synopsis, and then your 10,000-ish words. yeah And most of the time they'll do...
00:09:04
Speaker
the the audio you expect they'll read the cover letter then they'll read the manuscript then they'll read the synopsis there was i i think from memory chloe seager is the only agent who reads the synopsis first um yeah and then she reads the manuscript but most of them do it that way around and a lot of them don't read the synopsis they try not to if they really like reading it Yeah.
00:09:31
Speaker
A few of them do it just out of, you know, they think it's a good thing to do just even when they request the full, but a lot of them, um, will, if they want to request a full, they won't read the synopsis.
00:09:44
Speaker
And the the caveat there would be if they were concerned about a very specific thing based off the pitch in the cover letter and the manuscript, they might read it just to check something. yeah But a lot of them don't want to read the synopsis at all. So yeah, if that's what they're committing to, then they are going to be reading the vast majority of your novel at least, unless there's like something happens where they're like, oh, I can't rep this.
00:10:08
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. Which can feel, I suppose, a bit more of a gut punch. I know that the worst rejections you get are one on a full. Yeah. Do you feel like they're failing my entire novel? But it's not necessarily that either. It might just be that, like, they obviously were interested enough in the hook, etc., which we're told is so important now. It might just be like the vibe was a bit different to what they were expecting, or maybe they've not looked at the synopsis and it wasn't quite going in the direction they were hoping it would go.
00:10:35
Speaker
or it might end up you know it might turn out that it was actually much more similar in in full to something else that they're already representing right it's a scheduling issue issue as in like they might they might realize like they're they're thinking oh maybe i could rap as this represent this person then they look at their diary and it's like I'm not going to be able to really give this person enough time for like six months. And like, especially if they're editorial.
00:11:00
Speaker
Yeah. true Um, so yeah, I think thinking of, yes, they're definitely gatekeepers in, in the sense of if you want to go the traditional publishing route, that's your first hurdle to get over. Yeah.
00:11:15
Speaker
But yeah, there can be a misconception that there's like a vindictiveness, like a superiority to agents that they're just like, no, no, no. But it's absolutely not the case. Every single agent I've had on the podcast has been the like some of the nicest people. These are people who work in an industry because they love the product of the industry.
00:11:35
Speaker
All agents love literature. They love reading. They love books and they love writers. And that's why they, that's why they do I feel it's, it's not a job you can do unless you love books. Yeah. Yeah.
00:11:47
Speaker
And this is a gatekeeper that you can absolutely sidestep if you choose to go the indie route. If you do digital first, you can often go direct to a publisher and things like that. They're not like a, it's not like the only way of getting through into the industry. You can go around them in various different ways. And I've had guests on the on the podcast before I've met authors who have landed a book deal before they've had an agent and then they've retroactively got an agent.
00:12:17
Speaker
Yeah. I think it's trickier. it So it's it's tricky to get one, but it's, it's tricky to go around them as well because um those routes, the alternative routes, I think like if you, the ultimate goal is to get an editor, right? And a lot of the editors won't talk to you unless you have an agent. So I think, it's, it's not an easy route to to go without an agent. I don't think either. is yeah or i think they're both really, really hard to do. So yeah, you're right. Yeah. and try Publishing for sure.
00:12:47
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah, open editors from open submission, you're mostly looking at digital first um publishing houses. And a lot of that can result in your book coming out physical as well.
00:13:01
Speaker
But um you'd obviously have to do well with your digital. And then ah the other way would be if you want to be traditionally published without getting an agent would be probably competitions.
00:13:13
Speaker
So yeah, I, so that can work. i just think, um, a competition is one thing where there are like maybe, you know, 300 agents out there. And i I just think if you're trying to get published, you should, you should probably be doing both.
00:13:28
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. know what Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, like i think I think a lot of people think that one way is going to be easier the other because they try one way and and you you won it's so unlikely that you will pick one so you'll enter your first competition and you'll win.
00:13:43
Speaker
Or you will apply to your first agent and get a 24-hour later phone call like, yeah, read the whole suit, love it, like let's go. That is so unlikely. The vast majority of us, well, the reason you hear about those things is because they're unlikely so they're newsworthy, right? So I think the vast majority of us will try one route and then hit feel like hitting a brick wall so then you'll try the other route thinking it's quote unquote easier but Naomi's right like they're both difficult in their own way yeah and you eat you meet authors who have been like shortlisted longlisted even won like two or three awards before they've landed ah an agent yeah you don't know you know you never know kind of who's paying attention to what or like what's gonna gonna yeah I guess grab the attention of an agent on that But yeah, they are they are gatekeepers, but I feel like they are on the side of authors and they're always trying to like be as helpful as as they can. i know there's a lot of agents who have said to me, you know if authors are you know if i might ah you know I may have given them a rejection or something like that, but if you if you have like a question, if you just want to ask something about the industry or find out something,
00:14:57
Speaker
a lot of the time, probably not with regards to feedback, they don't have time to give feedback to all submissions. But if you're just like, oh, I don't understand how this part of the industry works. Could you just like, I know that you rejected me, but I'm just, it would be really useful if I could find out.
00:15:11
Speaker
Most of the time, they they'll be happy to just shoot you back an email on that. Yeah. And just let you know. Yeah. I feel like agents are gatekeepers, but they're also ah very open to to helping everyone along the way.
00:15:25
Speaker
Yeah. and Not scary gatekeepers. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. And the thing about agents they kind of understand to some degree how you feel as a writer when you're submitting to agents, because moving on to the next ah gatekeeper that that I had on on this list that you provided, Melissa, well done. me Agents spend most of their time submitting their author's work to the next gateee geek gatekeeper, which is the editors at publishers.
00:15:56
Speaker
Hmm. um Chills go down my spine. That's scary. And you're not even involved really in this part of the process. ah I don't know. I just i just think editors, but so when you send something out on submission, you get, and so often editors will give feedback, like they will have time to say, they'll either quote unquote ghost, which means they haven't responded, or they'll give feedback. And your agent will often say like, would you like to see, especially if you're coming to the end of a submission and maybe you're thinking, oh, is there something everyone's agreeing on that need to change in this manuscript for a second round? They'll give you feedback.
00:16:32
Speaker
And the feedback is always so helpful, but very like critical eye, professional feedback. It's not necessarily handholdy feedback, especially because they're technically sending it to your agent.
00:16:44
Speaker
And then your agent is choosing whether to pass on to you or you've asked for them to pass it on. So I do find editors can be a bit scary. And this is, again, said with the caveat is I've worked with um a few editors, of four five editors, and they've all been really nice.
00:16:59
Speaker
ah but But... I think that's once I've got a relationship with them, obviously, I do find them little bit scarier than agents. It is level two boss. Yeah. Yeah. ah But they're also looking at the, they're looking at a different thing. They're looking at the book as the product. Right. Agents are looking as, look they're looking at the author as the product. that So you, the author, are what is important to the agent.
00:17:21
Speaker
Whereas to editors, the obviously, you know, they also care about you, but they yeah that that their job is the book. You know, that's what they're being paid yeah to do is to is to do the books. Yeah. And yeah.
00:17:36
Speaker
Yeah, i mean that can be, also depending on how you do it. I know that, Naomi, you tell your agent, don't give me any news that isn't good news. Yeah, that's much easier for me. That can just be a black hole for you, I guess. If you go on so on submission, you might just hear nothing.
00:17:55
Speaker
Yeah. um Yeah. So tend to do, so last year i had book on sub and I did monthly check-ins and i said, don't tell me unless there's anything good, but between that, I will get in touch with you like once a month maybe. And then when I did, ah i would just say, how's it going? You know, have we heard anything? And I'd get a reply saying, yes, we've had two out of however many rejections and um she wouldn't give me any detail and then ah like i think we were at uh the three or four month mark and we'd had um a reasonable level of reply like maybe like a third of replies and um i was like so let's look at the feedback is there anything here that um it a lot of people are agreeing on do I need to make any edits you know can we go out again to a smaller list having made edits based on what people are saying and that is actually what we ended up doing and I think if you gather you collate all your uh feedback from from those from those editors you have responded and then you can go in and edit it it's a much it's much more successful and whereas if you're getting these rejections sort of day to day and the agent is telling you exactly what the editor has said it can be
00:19:13
Speaker
quite soul destroying and also not that um pragmatic in the sense that you can't you can't really do anything about it yet because that might just be what one editor thinks but then when you've got like maybe 10 or 12 editors who've all said the same thing then you kind of know okay there's some action here that we can do we can actually go away and do something about it yeah Yeah. And why is it that, Jamie, you're right, like editors are looking at the book and your agents look at you as a person. And it's not that cut and dry, of course. So sometimes maybe books come along or sometimes like they might want to build a career with you and offer you like a multiple book deal or whatever. But that's generally what they're doing. And yet, for some reason, I take it way more personally when getting rejected by an editor. Even though you're right, it's not about me. like It's not you, it's me. and But it still feels for some reason more personal, I think, because you pour so much of yourself into a book. And also it's something I really care about. like That's not terrible. I don't care about myself. But it's true. I think like when I write a book, I really care what people think of it because... how can you write a book and not care what people think of it? You want people to pick it up in a shop. You want people to buy your book. You want people to spend their money on your story. So of course I do care what
Marketing Strategies & Influences
00:20:21
Speaker
people think of it. Whereas when it's me as a person, you can always write another book. You can always, you know, try and work on your craft a bit more. You can always change it up. Whereas I think with like a particular book, it's harder.
00:20:33
Speaker
Yeah. But the other thing is when you you take a step back and you look at that and you think how much more competitive it is at once you're at the editor stage, you know, when you're subbing to agents, yeah yes, I know that agents, you know, some agents are getting in excess of a hundred queries a week.
00:20:55
Speaker
They have a lot to go through, but there's a lot of those that they can, you know, that they can quite easily realize they're not for them. They can skim over, they can go through them. But you're looking at, you know, these have not been vetted. Anyone can send anything to an agent and that counts as a submission. When we're talking about this next stage, we're talking about editors.
00:21:13
Speaker
um They're not getting anywhere near as many submissions as agents, but everything they're getting has been already vetted and probably edited, had a few redrafts with an agent yeah who who's going to be, you know,
00:21:31
Speaker
a lot of these agents used to be editors. You know, this is the kind of caliber of agents nowadays and like how good they are at editorial. Yeah, that's true. The difference in quality as well as sellability because agents have a, you know, they have a keen sense for what the market wants.
00:21:47
Speaker
The difference in quality at that stage when you're sending to editors, it's like, sure, if an editor only gets, um and I don't know how many, approximately how many, I guess it depends on the publishing house, but If an editor gets, you know, 10 submissions a week, every single one of those is going to be so competitive compared to the like 75 out of a hundred that the agent got that week.
00:22:11
Speaker
And then the agents worked on it. So it's, it's like, if you, you know, you've been, you've been filtered from a huge pool by the agent, but now you're in a, in, in a pool where every single thing you're against has been filtered by another author agent partnership.
00:22:28
Speaker
Yeah. So it is more, yeah, it's like a higher level of yeah competition. Yeah. And that's before you even factor in scheduling and what else the um publisher has coming out. It can't compete with itself. You know, there might not be a window for you to bring it out in this year. They don't want to, you know, or I have heard of recently of publishers, you know, saying that they're going to pick up a novel and it's going to come out in three years time or something like that. But They don't want to be doing that. They don't want to be signing something that's not going to come out for half a decade.
00:22:59
Speaker
Yeah, of course. And they're going to lose interest, like surely, because, you know, we all lose interest when we're waiting for things. I know I do. When I hear about like a movie coming out, i really want to watch and then I just forget about it until it comes out two years later. They lose interest. So, yeah, yeah, it is it is tougher. that does That does make me feel a little bit better. Thank you. little bit better now. But yeah, it is hard. I i do find it harder. I found i found the rejection. i mean, I'm not queried for a long time, but I did. It did hit me harder. And I remember at the time, my first round on submission, it did hit me harder than querying did.
00:23:33
Speaker
Yeah, that's true. Same. But what's interesting about those two roles, agents and then also editors, is compared to some of the other kind of latter gatekeepers, um that's a much more like person. these are These are really personable roles and for different reasons. You know, they have different focuses, but Editors and agents both have like most of the time to be successful in the business, they have to have a like a really good understanding of how to get along with their authors, also how to like work with their authors and every author is going to be different. So that there's a level of social adaptability that um agents and editors
00:24:11
Speaker
have to do and I spoke with them when Kessie was on last time I was asking her about how it feels giving feedback to to an author as an editor when you give the edits back and she was saying yeah I always used to get nervous because she's like I don't know if I'm you know, being too mean if that's gonna like upset them, but at the same time I need to like let them know what the best thing to do in this, you know, where where the kind of strengths and weaknesses are. It's like, I need to highlight that, but I also don't wanna hurt their feelings. I don't wanna, I don't wanna kind of demoralize them.
00:24:42
Speaker
um so she said, yeah, she was always, not usually on the following ones, but when you do the first round of edits for an author, when back when she was an editor, she was like, I i always got nervous doing that, which I thought was was so interesting.
00:24:56
Speaker
yeah that makes sense because you don't think about it no because yeah they they don't want to upset you they don't want to create a rift which could then cause like a difficult relationship going forwards because it's it's a long process you you're going to be editing that novel for maybe six months maybe more yeah yeah true yeah i mean editors for me i don't know editors feel like the the I guess and agents are the first hurdle, but I don't know. To me, in some ways, editors feel like the first like real gatepost to the to the industry. I don't know why agents sort of feel um periphery to to the to the age to the publishing industry itself. I guess because they're not part of that mechanism.
00:25:45
Speaker
They're sort of extra. Does that make sense? Yeah, I see what you mean. Although, interestingly, before I got published, which obviously we can talk about, i thought and i stupidly thought editors were the last gatekeeper.
00:25:58
Speaker
i was like, and once the book gets picked up, it's smooth sailing forever into the sunset with your Netflix DLB.
00:26:07
Speaker
My dad always said to me, he's just like one of these parent things, bless him. um So I had a book last year that didn't sell and he was like, but you have an agent.
00:26:18
Speaker
And was like, I know. that's the hardest part of the industry. was like, it really isn't. It doesn't feel that way. Getting an agent was easier than getting an editor.
00:26:31
Speaker
Yes, it's true actually. Times are changing too. Lots of, I was talking to someone the other day and talking about how a lot of the smaller imprints have been bought up in the last like five, 10 years by big publishers.
00:26:52
Speaker
And a lot of the time what happens there is that that imprint basically gets folded into a, you know, a different part of the the industry. And ultimately there's sort of less, um less places that agents can send ah new manuscripts to because there's less kind of variation. There's fewer options. Yeah, I see. I've never thought of that before. Yeah. i Compounding with everything else as well that's going on yeah with places closing and staff being let go, et cetera, et cetera. COVID. That totally makes sense actually. Yeah.
00:27:22
Speaker
So it has has gotten very difficult recently yeah um to to sell a book unless you are an established author or if you have some like... built in audience, I guess is the best way of yes explaining that.
00:27:38
Speaker
Um, but yeah, the, the second gatekeeper, which sounds like you guys both agree is the scarier gatekeeper and you guys have been around the industry, but, um, the, the editors at public house, but I want to reiterate the editors that I've met have all been such lovely and wonderful people. They're not scary people. It's just a scary part of the industry.
00:28:00
Speaker
Yes, they're not scary all. They're just really professional. but before do You know, when they give me feedback, they haven't even met you. They don't view you. Yeah, that's true. They're not commenting on you at all yet. It feels more personal for some reason, but that's just me. No, all the editors I've worked with have been really nice.
00:28:14
Speaker
And I guess... yeah You think of it in terms of payment structure. the An agent only makes money when you make money. So yeah the agent is fully invested in you. They're fully invested in doing the best they can to sell the book. The editor is on a salary and the that they they have a specific role and that is to acquire books that are going to sell and make money for the publisher.
Booksellers' Impact on Success
00:28:39
Speaker
so Yeah.
00:28:40
Speaker
They're coming at it from very different um payment structures and and also like that affects where they're invested and how they're going to approach. um Agents are obviously very business savvy, but when an editor looks at the book, they're going to look at it from a much more like I mean, agents are also going to look at this business focus, but ah yeah, editors, I think are going to be more to the point with everything though. They're going to be less concerned about, but no, I've just said they are going to be concerned about hurting your feelings.
00:29:09
Speaker
It's different. Okay. It's just different. It's
00:29:15
Speaker
Yes. And I don't know how to phrase it, but it is different. And the way that the the way that the payment works between the two different roles does change how they view and the the novel. And also, I guess the the dedication to time that they spend on it.
00:29:31
Speaker
You know, if an editor is on salary, they'll they'll be working on a few books at once. But like they have to do all of those books within a specific schedule. An agent, yeah obviously, they want to sell, you know, work on a book with you and sell it as fast as they can. But there's no set schedule for that.
00:29:46
Speaker
Yes, and also, you know, there's all sorts of things that happen. Like they might pick up your book because they absolutely love it and they would love to spend all the time on it. But sometimes they also have other books on their desk that they necessarily weren't the acquiring editor for. For instance, if it's a series and someone goes on maternity leave and so another editor has to cover maternity leave. It's not that they don't love the book because usually everybody in the department reads the book, but it might not necessarily be their exact thing. And having to spend time on that as well.
00:30:15
Speaker
So it's not necessarily, there it's it's it's complicated with editors. It is complicated. And you've just reminded me, editors have their own gatekeepers within the publisher. Yep. So now we're getting, we're getting onto gatekeepers on gatekeepers. my God, meta.
00:30:34
Speaker
So if an editor really likes your book, you've sent in a submission, they won't get back to you straight away. um Because what they'll do first is if they think, oh, I really like this book, I would like to acquire it.
00:30:47
Speaker
what they will do is um put together like a little pitch. They'll call a meeting with the rest of their team at the publisher and this will include like sales, this will include marketing, this will include PR and maybe so you know some other editors or you know whoever else is is part of that team, depends on the publisher.
00:31:04
Speaker
Um, and they will essentially then have to pitch the book, which they are already sold on, uh, to the rest of the team. And only when that team all sign off on it and they say, yes, okay, we're happy to acquire this. Uh, the, is the editor able to go back to, to you, the author or be your agent more likely, um, and say, hello, we would like to, you know, we're interested in this book. We would like to make an offer.
00:31:29
Speaker
Yada, yada, yada. yeah So like they have their own gatekeepers within their own company that they have to get past before they can get back to you. Yeah. Which is supports little saga.
00:31:41
Speaker
Yes. And again, i mean, it's different because of the payments structure, as I said, like they are on salaries, but again, if they're, if they've read your manuscript, they want to acquire it. They've put together pitch, a whole presentation, scheduled a meeting with the rest of the team, unless sometimes they do, it might be, a depending on the publisher, they might have a recurring weekly one where they all meet and they say, these are the things that I like, blah, blah,
00:32:08
Speaker
But they've already, you know, that they've potentially put, they've been working for you and some to some degree for some time. They've already put together all this stuff, which they're then going to pitch to the team to then try and convince them to, to, um, offer. and And if the team says no, then the editor just has to, you know, shrug and that's a shame, but onto the next. Yeah. yeah true Which one suck for them. They get invested.
00:32:36
Speaker
Yeah. If sometimes an editor is really passionate about something that can probably go on for weeks, months, maybe where they're constantly pushing back and and just really battling to try and get this book over the, over the, well, get permission to get this acquisition over the line.
00:32:53
Speaker
Yeah. So it can make you feel better, I guess, as an author. I think that's what when you fail at that hurdle, though, as an author, that sucks. I think it's because you're so close to the... You're so close. As i say, because before I was published, I genuinely thought like that was the tippy top of the mountain. right So you feel like you're so close to the top. And then you feel like, especially when they do tell you often, well, I've been told when you got to acquisitions and it was a no, and that they might say why it's a no, because it'll help you get the book out somewhere else. And it feels like you've just, just missed it.
00:33:27
Speaker
Yeah. like Photo finish. That feels really tough. Yeah. That's the worst one. But you have to, yeah, it's like with the full request from an agent and then getting rejected. Obviously it's difficult when you're in the moment to think of it this way, but you know, with time you can probably look back and be like, well, that was obviously such a good sign, you know?
00:33:48
Speaker
It was, you know, it didn't ultimately get there, but it it was good enough. it had had enough interest. It was exciting enough that people were fighting for it. You know what I mean? People were interested. People were, we were so close. It's like, that's how you know you're onto something and that you can do this, I think.
00:34:04
Speaker
yeah that's true it is it is a bit it's a boost when you've let the hurt down they always say like save them like my agent when that stuff because i've had stuff down submission all the time and always says like oh i've collated this together and if you don't want to read now don't but like keep because these are really nice rejections i don't know picks out the really mean ones but hopefully not hopefully they're the only one for you none of those people exist i'll just retype these they're not as me no I'm sure they're like the ones that were sent and she'll always say like have a look at these later because you'll see you had something here that's nice yeah you get the good feedback as well as the ultimate rejection yeah sometimes you just need that confidence or that validation but like even though it didn't work out
00:34:51
Speaker
It was good. People liked it. I get also if you get like a nice rejection from an editor, i wonder how many of those the editor did want to acquire it and they did pitch to the team. And it was like one of the other departments that basically said we don't have the you know time in the schedule or, you know, this isn't going to work for us.
00:35:08
Speaker
Oh, yeah. I got told for one of mine that and there was an editor that was quite keen on it and read it and really liked it, but they could not table an acquisitions meeting any time that month. And then I got an offer elsewhere. I got the offer from Hachette and then they were like, there just wasn't time to even like respond with anything. We were trying to table some, but just couldn't.
00:35:32
Speaker
And that's so, that must be so frustrating for the editor. That's really frustrating. Yeah. I mean, great for you that you got another deal, but it would, you know, the editor must be bummed. Yeah. Or obviously, then you start going, and what if I'd got this other offer and it'd been a huge auction. know. I'm sure I'll never hold the one anyway. yeah,
00:35:52
Speaker
And I'm sure, you know, when something like that happens, your agent is definitely like mentioning that when it comes to offers and things like that. It's like, yeah, we are waiting on a, you know, something from another publisher.
00:36:03
Speaker
um But yeah. um and Is there anything else that you guys think is worth mentioning about editors specifically? i I think it is, like what you were saying, it's worth remembering that they're humans too. i think yeah that's that's the point. And that they're nervous too.
00:36:18
Speaker
um i think that's a really important thing to remember. And they fall in love with books too. Exactly, yeah. And they don't always get what they want and that sucks for everyone. But yeah, they're humans. Yes.
00:36:30
Speaker
And there's a lot of movement between agents and editors. a very common path for agents is that they started out as editors and became agents. and yeah And I've heard of a couple of agents going the other way and from being agents became editors.
00:36:45
Speaker
um Yeah. There's ah a sort of strange amount of crossover between these two. Next on the list. ah and you guys might have to take point on this one, marketing and PR. So we'll be talking once once you've got past stage one and stage two and 2.5, which is the editors having their own little gatekeepers, ah your book has been signed.
00:37:09
Speaker
yeah Now you have the marketing and and PR team. how you put this on the list, Melissa. Why do you think, because this is not this is not something that people traditionally, I think when you think of gatekeepers and publishing, you don't necessarily think the marketing and PR team.
00:37:28
Speaker
tell us yeah of yeah so as i said i i just very naively and i don't know why i thought this because i do i live in the real world i've been to a bookshop why do i do this but you know like you think ah you get an editor and then all the books go out in the world and they all have an equal chance of being bestsellers and they're all just equal on the plane of reading of course that's not true because i also fall for various different markets and that's obviously not true Yes. So these are the gatekeepers that I just didn't realize until I got into publishing and starting with marketing. So first of all, they can literally be one of the mini gatekeepers. They can knock it back at acquisitions.
00:38:03
Speaker
So they can say like, and like marketing and PR, et cetera, can say, we can't put, we know what sort of campaign this will need because we have marketed a book like this before and we don't have the budget to do that. And we don't think it'll make back the money you want to spend on it, et cetera, et cetera. they can shoot it down there.
00:38:20
Speaker
And then once you're actually signed, um they can they have to look at all their books and decide where their marketing budget is going. And the biggest indicator of how well a book's going to do is the marketing budget. And we talk about this a lot. And does that mean a book with low marketing budget never does well? No, of course it doesn't. But the vast majority of books that you see that are pushed into your inbox in a Waterstones email that you see on the table in a bookshop, et cetera, had a big marketing budget.
00:38:50
Speaker
So in a way, it's a gatekeeper thing, dependent on what kind of deal you signed, how much marketing you're going to get. For instance, everyone's like everyone's watched a film or read a book and they've had it like pushed on them by friends time and time again. Like you'd love this. It's so you. I had one recently and I've started finally watching all 50 billion episodes of Supernatural And I was like, did I never watch this in the first place? This is bonkers. This came out when I was like 15, 16. I would have loved this. It's exactly like all the other shows was watching. It's like Buffy. It's even like I was reading they were going to do like a crossover of Vampire Diaries. I don't understand why didn't watch it, but didn't. And of course, you feel idiotic. like, why did I not watch this at the time? Why did not listen to people who were recommending this thing? The exact same thing could happen with a book. There could be the best book you've never read could be out there and you've never heard of it.
00:39:43
Speaker
because it doesn't have marketing or we have to hear it 21 times before we even click the link or um it it's not on a shelf or it doesn't have a really like amazing cover so it's not necessarily being put on a table or it's not on TikTok when you scroll every five seconds and so you're not crossing it all the time. So yeah, marketing has is a huge gatekeeper to finding your readers is the thing, right? So like for you getting a book out there and finding the correct readers, marketing can be a huge gatekeeper in my opinion. i would actually say but a bigger gatekeeper on the list than the other two. It's one of the biggest, yeah. yeah
00:40:20
Speaker
and And obviously the the budget of marketing will be determined by the it won't be, it's not the editor, I don't think, at the publishing house. I wouldn't say so.
00:40:31
Speaker
Yeah, it'll be the the rest of the team and and things like that. Yes, and it's also not how good the book is, must reiterate. know, and that's the tough thing. Yeah, it could be an incredible book. And sometimes that word of mouth eventually gets those things going, right? Like when you read instant bestseller, a lot of instant bestsellers are excellent books.
00:40:52
Speaker
However, when it's an instant bestseller, nobody's read it yet. The reason it's an instant bestseller is it has such a good marketing campaign that people have heard about it and pre-ordered it on Hype. Yeah, that's why it's an instant bestseller. It's incredible when it's a bestseller two or three weeks later, or indeed, if it's not a bestseller to begin with and becomes a bestseller, you really know you're onto something. And as I say, it does not mean that instant bestsellers are bad books. Most of them are great books. That's why they get such a good marketing budget.
00:41:18
Speaker
But it doesn't necessarily mean it's an incredible book because it's an instant bestseller. So that's like another marketing thing that comes in depending on how much money they've spent on your book versus how much they need to recoup on your book versus how well they think that it will do naturally anyway. There's lots of different elements that come into it. It's not just you are big leagues, you are mid-list, this is a bad book, this is a good book. It's so much more complicated than that.
00:41:44
Speaker
And that's fine. And I get it. And it's a business. But yeah, it does feel like possibly the biggest gatekeeper that I just did not realize was there. Yeah, I think as well is is what most people don't realize is that when people talk about marketing budget, yeah I think a lot of the time they don't mean like um posters up on the subway, you know, they don't mean billboards, they mean like staff time and how much time is going to be dedicated by the marketing and PR people to push your book. So they'll be like talking to newspapers, you know, trying to get reviews out and things like that. And just just other just things that generally take person a person's time and yeah and how that time stacks up and and amounts to the amount of someone's salary and and that publisher is obviously paying that salary and they and so they have to sit down as a team and decide where are we going to put our our time and i think that is when that's when you what you're saying melissa is is when um
00:42:44
Speaker
They look at what big books they've acquired and how they need to recover that money. And so that's what they decide what they're going to put their time in. Yeah. Which certainly makes sense. And, and things they know that are going to sell a hundred percent. So recently, you know, it went round lot of people screenshot to screenshot it in, in like our immediate circles was the, the listing for a, um, marketing manager explicitly to do Richard Osman books.
00:43:14
Speaker
Yeah. yeah So in terms of a marketing budget, like which this, you have to look at this from a business point of view. Those books sell like hotcakes. We know that when the new Thursday Murder Club comes out, it will be a bestseller instantly.
00:43:29
Speaker
This is just fact. So they the the idea that there's one person who's solely in charge of marketing Richard Osmond's books is such a drastic, um it's such a stark difference between what most people will have, you know, all mid-list authors will will be working probably with a marketing manager who is working simultaneously on 10 other books at the same time as theirs. Which just in terms of allocation of time, you know, you understand is not,
00:43:59
Speaker
you're not going to get nearly as much attention on your book. yeah And they're also not going to promote, by being a marketing manager for Richard Osman, they're promoting Richard Osman as a brand, as a brand as well as obviously the new book and all the old books and the series.
00:44:15
Speaker
um Because he's now he's now got a new series, which is not the Thursday Murder Club, so who's doing two series now. Yeah. um Whereas when you have a marketing manager who is working on 10 different books by 10 different authors at the same time, they will have to sort of be very careful about where they allocate their time for each of the books. They will not have time to build the brand of the authors themselves.
00:44:39
Speaker
Yes, which is obviously where like your social media comes in, et cetera. Or just the fact that one of the cheapest, literally cheapest things that they can do is send it out to book influencers. And then you've got to hope that it appeals that book influencer so that they post it on their profile. Obviously, I'm not talking about book influencers that have so many millions of followers you have to pay to advertise that book. I'm talking about ones where you send it out and they might pick it up anyway and advertise the book as such.
00:45:07
Speaker
Yeah. So it's sometimes there are some things that maybe would work better in certain genres as well. It's such a minefield, but it's absolutely a gate keeping thing that will stop you reaching some of your target audience. And there's no way around that.
00:45:24
Speaker
Mm hmm. Yes. and And speaking of like, um I had, I've spoken to a book marketer recently on the Right and Wrong podcast. um And ah she was, we we talked about this quite specifically, and she was saying that, yeah, more and more.
00:45:41
Speaker
Because of, you know, people on TikTok have realized how big BookTok is within certain genres. And she was saying it's, you know, more and more of them now won't just take a book and promote it. They will ask for payment as well as, you know, the the book coming.
00:45:56
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. Because they they know how much power they have now. yeah that's interesting gatekeepers there you go yeah well we're getting onto that that's later sorry um whilst we're still on marketing and pr i had a thought well well first of all you know you are correct definitely there is a lot goes into how much money a publisher chooses to put into marketing to get more eyeballs on you know just the fact that this that your book exists yeah um That being said, this is not like one of those, it's not a watertight gate.
00:46:31
Speaker
um There is always room. Obviously it's rare, but you do, you do get books which just sort of find an audience and organically grow out of nowhere and that and do become, you know, a great success often over time. um But then what's funny is what you'll find there is ah once it finds once a book finds a certain amount of of success organically the publisher will realize that and then they'll open the gates and then they'll pump loads of marketing into it redirect their records yeah yeah that's very true yeah yeah the the other thing i thought was you were talking about um
00:47:09
Speaker
seeing adverts for things, for for various things, um is I guess, and we hadn't had, this wasn't on the list, but because so much of advertising now happens through social media,
00:47:21
Speaker
I guess the algorithms are also now gatekeeping things because you're going to see things based on things that you like, you know, yeah these tech companies have a horrifying amount of information on each of us. yeah So, you know, I'm unlikely to scroll through my Instagram and see a lot of, you know, like historical, um, nonfiction.
00:47:48
Speaker
yeah because it's just not something that I read uh whereas I get you know if when Brandon Sanderson has a new book out sure I'll get all the ads for it yeah whereas yeah you know and then sometimes I speak to people who have and people in books and some people have like never heard of Brandon Sanderson and I'm like what do you mean i get it get an ad for Brandon Sanderson every like three scrolls Yeah, yeah that that's common. i think that like I have a book club and um I'm amazed sometimes. There are people in that book club that have kids.
00:48:18
Speaker
And some of them, and she said, oh, I went into the bookshop and there was this book that they recommended and it was Scandar and the Unicorn Thief. And she's got kids that read middle grade books. And to her, and she's she's she's on Amazon. She has a Kindle. and So there's an algorithm picking up her reading habits. She has kids who listen to audio books and she has an Audible subscription, et cetera, et cetera. I know mostly Amazon, but hear me out. And um yeah, and she still hadn't heard of that book. And that was crazy to me because it's been such a big, this is think around when the third book in the series had come out. But you just realize to be a household name means something so different in the internet age.
00:48:53
Speaker
Because yeah like I thought that would be a household name thing. And it wasn't necessarily in her so sphere, which is bizarre because she's definitely got her finger on the pulse of most bookish things.
00:49:04
Speaker
And that has had such a huge marketing campaign. Yes. It's been pasted all over the place. yeah Even they can't crack the algorithm. No one can. How bizarre. Yeah.
00:49:16
Speaker
That has always been the way. I mean, I used to work in in media, so i used to I used to work adjacent to advertising and things. But yeah it's always kind of understood that a huge amount of a marketing budget is literally just burning money.
00:49:28
Speaker
You know that a lot of it's just going to do nothing. Yeah, I hear there's a 2% rule and that's probably changed now. It's like if you market something to 100 people, two of them might click the link or whatever. Yeah, that sounds about right.
00:49:41
Speaker
Yeah, because you're you're looking for what they call conversion rates, you know, whether it be early. Then you talk about like um brand advertising. So like just having like a ah bus post, you know, posters on buses and stuff. yeah yeah You have zero way of tracking the success of that.
00:49:58
Speaker
Yeah. There's no conversion rate that you can see. You can't see like a CPM or whatever where that's a cost thing. Yeah, whatever. You know what i mean that You are a lot of marketing is just throwing spaghetti at the wall and waiting for something to stick.
00:50:12
Speaker
Yeah, which can be difficult for the marketing team. And also, I suppose, on the flip side, what you were saying about like having stuff directed at you with an algorithm, the good thing about that is hopefully you will hear about more of the books that you would really love. If your algorithm gets really tailored because we're scrolling all the time and using it, and you might get recommended books that are a little bit more unusual, hopefully, that really fit your niche would be the maybe hopeful silver lining around it being completely directed.
00:50:40
Speaker
Yeah. And and this is where you know this is why there's an entire industry dedicated to ah SEO, search engine optimization, which is to you know to to do it on a fundamental level, on a basic level, is not an overly complicated thing to do. The thing that this industry and people that work in ah SEO are very good at is when, and it's it's such a bizarre line of thinking, but like when a big tech company like yeah like a Google um or TikTok or whatever, when they tweak the algorithm,
00:51:15
Speaker
The SEO guys have to, as quickly as possible, figure out how the algorithm was tweaked and then how they what they need to change to maintain their like them being a top search choice for that thing.
00:51:29
Speaker
And yeah, i mean, that's, again, italy if you'll and if your SEO is not good, that's just, I guess, another form of gatekeeping. Yeah. And none of this has anything to do with what your book's about, how good it is. no That's what's bit. No, of course not. Don't be ridiculous.
00:51:48
Speaker
Don't be absolutely absurd. um I had it later on on this list, but I might bring it up because I feel like this is a good time to move into book reviewers.
00:52:00
Speaker
um So like we mentioned, you know, this is the power of TikTok yeah or BookTok, Instagram or Bookstagram. We see a pattern here, NetGalley, um all of the above.
00:52:15
Speaker
ah i i'm I don't love social media. um So maybe let's let's see what Naomi thinks. Naomi, book reviewers, when it comes to like, whether it be social media or like whatever, magazines, newspapers, how did how does it line up for you? How do you feel about that as part of the gatekeepers of publishing?
00:52:37
Speaker
uh hmm we're recording so i think it's become its own little sphere i feel like uh since since particularly since tiktok um is i think it's become own little sphere i feel like ah since since particularly since tiktok and where publishers realise they can actually see readers' reception and actually watch ah if a book is doing well or not or how it's received. and Book reviewing has become really, really important. um But I think before before Instagram, before TikTok,
00:53:18
Speaker
the only real metric to measure how well a book was doing was on pure sales. um And I think that still is, but the way that a book is, is reviewed has also become really, really important and because if somebody really loves it, there's this chance, like every time you post a TikTok, you're spinning this lottery ticket of whether something might go viral. And if some, if someone loves a book, they're going to post a TikTok about it and it it might go viral and it might change somebody's career. so,
00:53:48
Speaker
we we've experienced that in Meliva in our debut group that's happened to just to people on our debut group where TikToks have gone viral and their career has literally changed overnight and so the I think for publishers getting books out to book reviewers is it's suddenly just become really really important and if a if a reviewer loves a book and they're going to post about it if they hate a book they're going to post about it. And if it's okay, they're probably not going to post about it. So, yeah um, it, I just think it's become this really, yeah it's, but it's become something that's really, really important. And I, I think it gatekeeps in a way and in the sense that, um, they almost decide what books everyone should pay attention to because if a book is, is really mediocre, they're not going to post about it. But like what we were saying with the five star and the one star review, you know,
00:54:41
Speaker
i'm if you if you hate something, you're going to post about it If you don't like it, ah you know, it's going to fuel this this hate thing and this wave of hate and people are going to join on a bandwagon or whatever and your book's going to go viral for all the wrong reasons. Or you're going of um have, like, someone who absolutely loves it and raves about it so people go away and buy it themselves and read it and also agree and jump on the train. and So, yeah, it gatekeeps in the sense that um it can...
00:55:07
Speaker
make you really, really successful and make you really, really unsuccessful. Yeah. And then also the going viral thing will often mean other people copy the exact same video to try and make theirs go viral. So the person thinking of, because she spoke about this on a TikTok, so you guys can go and check, but it's Cynthia Murphy. She had a TikTok for her second book, overnight it got a couple of million views and the TikTok was I say just it was perfectly nice TikTok it was some music and the person opens the first page you can read the first page of her book win lose kill die and then she closes the book to show you the cover of what book it was and that first page it's a great written first page and it always was a great written first page including when the book came out so it was always good but for some reason that video just absolutely exploded and lots of people tried to copy it by doing the same first page so then it was spreading and spreading and spreading and then they were referring people back to that original tiktok and that was nothing that uh cynthia did or i don't believe scholastic sent that person a book and that person had think 2 000 followers at the time so they were not huge it was bizarre It just blew up. And yeah, that changed the trajectory of her. I think they sold out everywhere. Yeah. And she sold out everywhere. And it was like six months after her initial publication. It was certainly at least a few months after. Yeah. Yeah. It's wild.
00:56:28
Speaker
Yeah. It does happen. I remember speaking to her about it and she was saying that she was, she was like, can't remember. She was like on a plane or she was away or her phone was off.
00:56:40
Speaker
And she came back to her phone and just had like a million notifications. Yeah. Because people, of course, were then like tagging her like, yes, I have read it. yeah And people want to jump on the train. So they're saying, yeah, it was great. it were I just remember it was absolutely wild. Like she sold out in every bookshop. There were books going up on eBay of her book for like hundreds of pounds because people, again, and that helps us like guys jumping on this thing off. Oh, well, I've got a copy that.
00:57:04
Speaker
Probably sell it for 300 quid if it's so popular. Now, yeah are they necessarily selling? Probably not. But yeah, The whole thing created this entire hype train. Yeah. And it was, it was like wild to behold. That obviously changed the trajectory of how that book did and therefore all her other the books.
00:57:22
Speaker
Yeah. and And that's what publishers want though. And so it's almost like they rely, if if you don't have a big marketing budget, they're at least going to send some copies to TikTokers just in case this happens. but ah and ah Yeah. Yeah. It does happen. It can happen.
00:57:37
Speaker
Yeah. It's it's with her because it it I mean, this is just I guess reinforces how big a force book talk has become. But yeah, i I haven't heard of that kind of thing happening in the same way on Instagram.
00:57:51
Speaker
Yeah, I don't know enough about Instagram to know that. And also i feel like, this is o to see you know, I mean, we we both write YA, me and Naomi, and like young adult was in the toilet at the beginning of the pandemic. Like no one was buying it. And then obviously everyone went on TikTok because bored during the pandemic. And TikTok became big and therefore BookTok became big. And therefore YA became big because that's the genre that does well on TikTok because of the age of people that were jumping on TikTok. Yeah, because they were reading those books. Exactly. It was 14 to 24-year-olds that were jumping on and doing these huge big things and talking about YA books. um
00:58:28
Speaker
so And it was they both died at the end, wasn't it? a first Yeah, that did really well. That was a huge one to start with. And so, yeah, maybe it's a different audience, maybe it's a different age audience. I don't know. Maybe it's a genre thing because different genres do well in different places. Yeah.
00:58:42
Speaker
That is definitely something I've heard. Like, BookTok is quite specific on its genre. YA does good, but like, you know, if you're, we talked about this before the podcast, if you're fantasy romance and then anywhere between those lines, yeah you're going to do great. You're going to do really, really well.
00:59:01
Speaker
Yeah, yeah. But if you you know, a lot of the other genres generally, like, I wouldn't, I don't imagine middle graders is, is, has the same virality, ah or like nonfiction, no crime thriller, I don't think is as big on that, even though crime thrillers, you know, one of the biggest best selling genres out there.
00:59:23
Speaker
Well, that's what I was also thinking is whilst reviewers are so important now, and as Naomi said, like it's so divisive because people either post a hideous review or an incredible review. Nobody's posting like, I enjoyed this 3.5 stars. It was all right. No one's posting that video. yeah that Everything is either hideous or amazing. um yeah You've also got, you know, let me say I'm in a book club with like, I think there's seven, eight of us and um none of them review books. And in fact, until my book started coming out, and I would be like, oh, it'd be really great. They'd say, I've read your book. Really enjoyed it. And I'm like really great for a few review. And they looked at me like thinking, review where?
00:59:58
Speaker
was like, you know, like on Amazon or Goodreads, never heard of Goodreads. I think we also in book world think that everyone reviews everything they read and have like these reading goals and stuff. The majority of people I know that happily read probably about 30 to 40 books a year, read on holiday, buy books, don't review them. The majority of people who buy books do not review books. You can tell from, you know, look up a really popular book and it might have 100,000 reviews on Amazon, but you know for a fact it's a multi-million best-selling book.
01:00:26
Speaker
So the majority of people have not reviewed it. So most people actually aren't reviewing books, which is weird because it does seem to create bestsellers. But then also lots of people who read, say, Cynthia's book off the base that TikTok may have never seen the TikTok and will never review the book. They may have just heard it might have been third, fourth hand off the that TikTok. Yeah, just someone mentioning it. Yeah, yeah.
01:00:47
Speaker
Yeah, i mean, like when you think about it in terms of, you know, how many books, I know probably nowadays more books are bought online or e-books than before, but... there's still a lot of sales coming through bookshops and it's not like you're going into a bookshop with your book, leaving and then reading your book. And then i don't know, it seems more removed to then log onto a website that was probably not the place that you bought the book and then leave a review.
01:01:17
Speaker
You know what I mean If you bought it off Amazon, I guess you're more likely to review it on Amazon. Yeah. Yes. Because they remind you as well. Yes. like Exactly. When you finish the Kindle one and it says, just press this button and you can just leave a star rating, which is why I have two one star reviews on Soulmates on Kindle with no comments. Not that I'm bitter about But that happens, you know, because you can literally just press a button. So they've also made it easier to be very passive about reviewing, which is quite interesting. Yeah, yeah. Just give it a at one to five. Just jab one of these buttons. Yeah. yeah um
01:01:49
Speaker
I guess on from book reviewers, what do we think about news outlets? Do we feel like that's more a thing of the past or do we feel like it's still a big driver in terms of how, you know, if... whether you can get into like ah a big national newspaper or a magazine or not, is that ah another form of gatekeeping?
01:02:11
Speaker
i think it is. um But I think TV is more so than newspapers. Yeah, I noticed. I think the problem with newspapers, and I suppose technically TV, but maybe if you're watching TV, it might also be on your phone. and I know people who've been like picked out as like a book of the week in something like The Times, ah which I think back in the day would be considered a huge, big driver of sales. And they haven't had loads of sales off the back of it. And often they say, I wonder if it's because they're just not that linked to click.
01:02:41
Speaker
You know, you read about the book, you've then got to remember about that book. Yeah. You've got go off and find it. Like they say, the more barriers there are to clicking. I remember I did this social media thing and they were saying, um we don't like to direct everyone to Amazon because obviously, you know, Amazon is inherently evil, as we all know. ah But it does have one click buying. So if you send, yeah if you're saying like, please pre-order my book and you put a link underneath, I try and now link to my link tree, which does have an option now of listing everything. But it means instead of clicking once to get to Amazon and then wants to buy the book immediately, you are clicking once, then you're going to my link tree. Then you've got to choose e-book or paperback. that's a second click. Then a third click to click on, say, Wardstones or whatever. Well, if it's Wardstones, you have to log in.
01:03:25
Speaker
If it's, you bookshop.org, which is independent bookshops, you have to log in. so it's a lot more barriers to buying the book, I think, in a paper. Yeah, because yeah you literally have to let go onto a device, type in the entire name of the yeah the product, and then of the above. By the time you've got someone interested, that amount of clicks, they might have lost interest. It's so bad, isn't it?
01:03:50
Speaker
People's attention spans just out there. Mine isn't. That being said, I mean, i don't know how it's, maybe it's on like a mailing list or something, but when you get something like the, uh, the Richard and Judy, um, book of the month and then the, obviously Reese's book club, um there's not like, you still have the clicks there. I guess those are just big enough that it doesn't matter because we all want to be reading whatever Reese is reading, I guess. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, there'll be some things where you will put in a bit extra effort to look up the thing, I'm sure.
01:04:27
Speaker
But on the whole, most people just want one click. So even having your thing reviewed in the wrong place could be a a gate that readers don't want to go through. Yeah.
01:04:39
Speaker
And I guess there is a distinction to make for types of audiences because when you think, I think about like news outlets, for us, we're very aware of what places like the bookseller are headlining, you know, when they do like a book announcement for something. Right.
01:05:00
Speaker
But I would imagine 90% of my friends who are not um connected to publishing in any way, even even my friends who are like big readers probably don't even know that the bookseller is a website.
01:05:13
Speaker
Yeah. Yes, that's very true. yeah Like a lot of, there's a lot of weight in the UK put on if you get, if you, if you're able to get an announcement in the bookseller. um But realistically, i don't know how much that actually translates into sales. It's more for people in the industry.
01:05:32
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah, that's true. Which can really skew and what you think is a good bestselling book and what's actually a household name, et cetera. Yeah. And I suppose that's true of getting into a newspaper if they do a review of your book. Like it's not it's does it really push sales or is it just like a little nice to have you've made it you're in a newspaper kind of thing?
01:05:54
Speaker
Well, newspapers have much bigger reach than like the bookseller.com do. You know, like if you get in, I know that from when I was in media and and people always say like print advertising is dying and things like that. But yeah, it's been dying for years. ah But the the biggest newspaper in the UK is The Sun. So like if you're going to do print advertising, you want to be in The Sun because it just reaches the most eyeballs.
01:06:20
Speaker
And, you know, if you're reaching, i don't know what the numbers are, let's say a million people, 2% of a million is, if that's the conversion rate, like what we were going off earlier, if 2% of the people that read it pick up the book, that's a lot of sales. Yeah. Which is exactly sort of the theory with series where you might get half drop off each book and that might sound terrible. But if you've got like 10 million buyers of the first one, then you've got 5 million and second one. It's pretty good, isn't it? Yeah.
01:06:44
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah, yeah. I also think a lot of people buy um books in a series, with even if they don't read them. Yeah. but I mean, series series is hard though. You've got to be you've got to be a real like established name for people to get invested to buy, especially if you're going to do like a six, so seven parts. Like if you're doing like a proper fantasy epic, like this is going to be tons. Yeah. Which is why yeah which is why i think there was a time like maybe 10 years ago where everything was a trilogy.
01:07:16
Speaker
Yeah. Every book deal was a trilogy. yeah They were like, yeah, three book deal. It's going to be a trilogy. yeah Um, and now it's like so rare that you see, uh, a trilogy pickup unless it's like a six figure, like a big published size thing. It's so rare that you you see ah announcement for like a, a three book deal, two books. Sometimes like, I think duologies are quite popular now, but really I think, especially with the debut author, it's just safer to have a standalone novel.
01:07:46
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. With asterisk sequel potential. Always. In case it takes off on TikTok. But this is off off topic for a sec, but like when people do say that with sequel potential thing, I think a lot of the time you don't need to have written that into the original original novel. I think that can come in editorial. Like if the publisher and the editor are like, we want to do something more with this. Let's throw a little bone out at the end. We could maybe open this up to a sequel.
01:08:15
Speaker
Yeah. But the book needs to stand on its own two legs. Yeah. Yeah. um let's go back on topic what were we talking about okay so book reviewers news outlets a gatekeeper that you have almost no control over over I would imagine oh yeah no you don't not at all it's really random if you get a review in a newspaper or not PR person will say we sent out to all these newspapers and imagine if they decide to review it or not not even the publishers in control of it really no no they're not yeah
01:08:49
Speaker
And obviously the same with social media. I mean, to some degree, publishers will do paid ads, maybe depending on what your budget is, depending on what they want to do with a certain creator. But, you know, half of your reviews on social media are going to be, it could be from someone who's literally just created a review channel.
01:09:07
Speaker
And it also could be from someone who has like a million um followers. yeah So it's, you never know. It's totally out of your control. um I guess you just have to sit back and hope for the best.
01:09:19
Speaker
Yeah. ah Next on your list, booksellers. ah Yeah. so I know very little about booksellers. ah Because they're amazing people. Like they are the ones on the one hand, they're the best gatekeepers because they will push books into people's hands in the shop. Like so good. When you go on a website to buy a book, whether it be Amazon, whether it be Waterstones, whatever, you have to know which book you're looking for. Really? Yes, they have people who enjoyed this, enjoyed that, or this recommends this. ah But it's so different too. If you go into an independent bookshop,
01:09:53
Speaker
and say to them, you know, my son is a reluctant reader, but he really loved X books, they will be able to recommend 10 more books. They will not necessarily be the biggest books. In fact, booksellers often champion smaller books. It's always fascinating to look at the um indie bestsellers book list, which this is always confusing because of what indie means. But essentially there's a there's a list for independent bookshops and which books have sold the best in independent bookshops versus the actual general list of what's sold well, because we know that... roughly I think I've heard the number 70% of all book sales done through like Amazon and Waterstones. So it's always interesting to see what's doing well in indie. And I see more and more sprayed edge editions of books that are just for indie bookshops.
01:10:35
Speaker
Yeah. So then it's like pushing people away from Waterstones and Amazon and pushing them into indie bookshops. So they are some of the best gatekeepers you can get. They are technically gatekeeper because their opinion essentially on your book is whether they're going to push it into people's hands or not. You have to give them a whole it's called an AI sheet, advanced information sheet, telling them like what it's about, what sort of age group it's aimed at so that they don't shelve it on the wrong shelf. Obviously, a lot of booktop books have got in trouble for that, saying that they're YA, but actually they've got loads of spice in, not really appropriate for 12-year-olds, which YA technically is 12 plus. So they like to know about that. And they will often read the book. You'll go and do a big proof drop. You'll drop the book at independent bookshops. So on the one hand, it's great because they will push books into people's hands. On the other hand, there are hundreds and hundreds of independent bookshops. who can't visit them all.
01:11:19
Speaker
um it's quite hard to reach those booksellers um it's not like waterstones for instance where they might have a book come through that's going to be book of the month so they're going to tell all of their booksellers about that book and that's the book they're going to push it's not the same because they're not technically working together so it's it's a tricky one but they are incredible ones because they will push smaller books often definitely Yeah, I guess they're pushing some books more than others, but yeah for the most part, I'd imagine they' they'll push the ones that they've read and enjoyed. Exactly, because to them, you know, they're sailors, they're thinking, I want to push. Obviously, some books are more expensive than others. They've bought in other books, maybe at different prices than other books. But at the end of the day, if you're an independent bookshop, you're probably making roughly, if we're talking about books on that general scale of a paperback is, well, now $9.99.
01:12:09
Speaker
nine They're making the same amount of money probably each book. So they're going to push the book that they enjoyed. And also independent booksellers, that's not for the faint of heart. They're absolute rock stars for taking on that during like, yeah you know, we're not exactly having the best time cost of living crisis and they've opened a bookshop. That's incredible. So they really care about books if they've opened a bookshop.
01:12:29
Speaker
Yes. And they're looking for, they're looking for repeat customers. So like yeah they're staking their reputation on the books that they exactly are recommending yeah to people. Yeah. It's their livelihood. Yeah.
01:12:40
Speaker
Yeah. And I'm sure a lot, mean, it's sort of, um, a cozy dream to have your, like your, you as a reader, your, your personal sort of independent bookshop, you know, the owner, and you know that when you go in, you can trust them to suggest something that you're going to like. And then you're like, awesome. Thank you so much. I'll have my coffee exactly and take an artistic selfie outside. yeah like honestly it's pretty much it and like that's what and then it doesn't matter if they never read it because they've bought already it's too late yeah as long as the bookseller addresses you by your first name and everyone hears it as you come in you happy Everyone knows. Yeah.
01:13:21
Speaker
That's just, that's just the way it is Like, so yeah, I think they're, it they're, they're like a good gatekeeper on the list because they actually, they do, that is something where, you know, we were saying, and that's before anyone's even read it or that's before you even know if it's a good book. This is when it's a good book.
01:13:34
Speaker
They will not recommend a book that they haven't read. They will not recommend a book that they haven't had an advanced information sheet on and know everything about, that they don't have point of sale items, that they don't and trust the person who was selling it to them, that marketing person, or whether it be an independent marketing team like Bounce. there There's a lot of trust going on.
01:13:52
Speaker
They will read the book. And if they enjoy it, they will recommend that book. It makes a huge difference. then and what're but we're talking about and obviously there's also booksellers for then the big corporations you know like water zones has booksellers um foils whatever yeah whatever your preferred uh corporate overlord is yeah um is that they're not doing exactly the same role i guess because they're not as boots on the ground as like an independent bookshop Yeah. So it's, you know, they'll obviously be, I've spoken to Waterstones booksellers and obviously i remember you go, but sometimes you go behind the scenes in a Waterstones when you're doing a book launch and you'll see on the whiteboard, they've written out what their book of the month is, which is the book they're supposed to be pushing because it's the book of the month. They've got a huge stock of it in because every single store is going to have several hundred copies across the whole country because that's what they've you know promised everyone. and So obviously they do keep track of selling that book of the month for obvious reasons. And also to be fair, the book of the month is chosen for good reasons. you know They've chosen a a really good book that they know is going to have this big marketing thing. And maybe they've got, as I say, point of sale items. Maybe they've got bookmarks to put out with it. Maybe they've got... And Escandar had some um badges for...
01:15:03
Speaker
and that they were giving out with it. So there's a million reasons why they've picked those books. But at the same time, most Waterstones booksellers I know, first of all, do dream of having their own bookshop. So second of all, are very good readers.
01:15:15
Speaker
They do definitely read stuff. They definitely get sent stuff by publishers. They usually have a bookstagram or something for reviewing books. So they are also really, really good. It's just, I suppose, some of that corporate thing might come in, arguably, because they are needing to sell certain books because they've huge order of them because they're book of the month. I totally agree. and But Glasgow in particular has like 70 million waterstones and some of them are on kind of like riy it does some of the like the periphery of the city. And they operate, they're quite a lot smaller and they operate like as an independent bookstore in some respects. So they still have their book of the month that are like around the country. But if you go in and you say, I'm a local author, they're they will give you, they probably will give you a table and with your book on it and and they'll try and push you as much as they can because you're local. And and they go and they do, like i think I think the smaller branches that are kind of like, and you know, it's not a flagship, it's not the main one in the city. It's just like a smaller little branch. that's It's not got much floor space, but they they do operate a lot more like an independent bookshop. Yeah, can imagine that.
01:16:23
Speaker
Yeah, and they get really excited when authors go in and stuff. Because obviously they're not the big flagship. They're not the big one in the city. So they get really excited. But and when I went into one particular, it was Newton Mearns. They were well excited to to see me. And they were like, we're going to give you a table. We're going to push it really hard for you. And you know and they they do treat you like an independent bookstore, the smaller ones I found.
01:16:43
Speaker
Yeah, and they're not, you know, when we say corporate, they are not the actual corporation, the booksellers. Yeah, exactly. So they want to be really involved with authors. And, you know, lots of the time when these events are organized at Wardstones, it's often the booksellers in the shop that have organized the event, not Wardstones. It's the bookseller taking on extra responsibility and time to organize an event that will be enjoyable for both the author and the author's fans.
01:17:09
Speaker
Yeah, definitely. Yeah. I was just looking. Yeah, there's like seven waterstones in Glasgow. It's crazy. yeah That's wild. 70 million. seven Big readers. Let's love books to you guys. There's only like maybe two indies. They're all waterstones. It's really interesting. Whereas Edinburgh has got all the indies and only like maybe three waterstones.
01:17:30
Speaker
o but So I guess the difference that obviously they're still booksellers, they they still have their own preferences. And I'm sure yeah if you go into a Waterstones and they'll, the it'll be, first of all, we've all been into a Waterstones. It's very obvious what the book of the month is. You can't miss it. Yes. um But I'm sure if you ask them for more recommendations, they will give you their own personal recommendations as well. Yes, they do. So I guess the difference is when you go to an independent bookshop with an independent bookseller,
01:17:59
Speaker
they will uh they will have personally that person who you are meeting face to face is the person that has chosen their whatever that you know if they do an equivalent to book of the month or something like that waterstones have a um sort of it's more of a national thing i think yeah yeah whatever the book of the month is all the stores have to push that so it's obviously it's been chosen by committee yes but the person that you're speaking to in the shop is not the person who picked necessarily would they might have they might also have picked that book but it's not necessarily their their choice. And that's the kind key difference, I guess. Yeah.
01:18:33
Speaker
So the gatekeeper is sort of outside of the local shop itself, whereas with an indie, the gatekeeper is the person you're speaking to face-to-face, which is, there's something nice about that, I guess. makes it way more approachable. The most approachable gatekeeper award goes to independent
Educators & Librarians in Book Promotion
01:18:53
Speaker
sellers. What we have next We've got teachers. So this, I would say,
01:18:58
Speaker
is true, but it absolutely focuses on middle grade, ah I think, because I guess, and YA more so now now when it feels like YA is not necessarily becoming younger, but with true y a crossover, romanticity, all the kind of new genres, which is sort of used to be YA being pushed up. it feels like YA has more scope now to be young, but yeah. Teachers as gatekeepers.
01:19:31
Speaker
Um, did you guys have to, you know, do anything with teachers with your YA novels? Yeah. Yeah. So, um, uh, at chicken house we did, um, I helped them do like a scheme of work because dystopia is, um, on the syllabus. I can't remember if it's year eight or nine. so, and a lot of the school visits I get booked in for a, for year eight or nine.
01:19:55
Speaker
and and they're quite focused on dystopian fiction. So we did do a little bit and Chicken House only publishes children's and only publishes like quite a short range. So it's sort of chapter, well, upper chapter book through to YA. So I feel like they're very much aimed at uh teachers for obvious reasons in their marketing um and obviously i've done school visits so yeah 100 they definitely and they definitely send them out when they get tagged in things um and they say oh i've got an early copy of this book and they tag you it's usually like say um ah a school library account um saying it and it's like the teacher has got a copy of that book and the teacher's in contact with the publisher and they've been sent one
01:20:36
Speaker
Okay. yeah Yeah. There's also, and is it called the UK school book list or something? Oh yeah. um And they've got like, so basically this, this is a big gatekeeper actually, because they recommend books to school librarians and teachers to bring into their school. and And I got on it. Woohoo. So I got a load of ah teachers tagging me either on Twitter or on Instagram, showing me the book coming into their school libraries and So so the the and the publisher will work with that UK school book list people and and say, these are the books we've got coming out. and These are what they're about. And then the the list will pick them and then push them at the schools. And then basically all the teachers probably get like an email and they're in boxing. We recommend this book or whatever. and And that's how I got into into a bunch of schools. But yeah, you can also do school visits. And I decided pretty early on that I was not going to do any school visits. um
01:21:36
Speaker
I work full time that was my excuse not that i'm terrified of doing them nothing like that but that's another way to do it It does feel like the sort of thing you might have nightmares about where you stand up in front of the school and something goes wrong. Your trousers fall down. Hats off to you, Malibu. I don't know how you it. Yeah, kids are way too earlier than teachers. Are you joking? No, I totally agree. They are always like the happiest to see you though, which is quite nice.
01:22:06
Speaker
I must admit, like I've never had happier, happier signing cue than a ah school signing cue. yeah just thrilled that you are there it's very nice and yes I'm also on a school reading list and you're right they also that's like all related into it isn't it that is a gatekeeping thing because you know kids they do I've seen I've been to school visits where it's been organized by the librarian I've hung out with the librarian over lunch just like being at school and um you know they've said oh um kids come in and they say oh miss what should I read I've read this and I've finished it now and I loved it what should I read and it's really common that they'll push them towards certain books so yeah these are all people that if you're in kid lit again it's that word of mouth thing really if you can't get organic word of mouth and you don't have a huge marketing budget you need to find people who will talk about your book for a good reason you'd find those people you know and you need to be friends with them not just yeah hate hear no fra yeah but you know you need to find these people that will talk about your book to kids
01:23:04
Speaker
because that's how they'll find out and but that's the other thing though right is that these people librarians and probably don't have much budget you know nope the the life school libraries are disappearing as our libraries generally and so for your book to even get in the hands of this target audience if you're writing way or middle grade it's becoming increasingly more difficult and so with a librarian who has a very limited budget they're going to have to be really really choosy with what books that they bring into their library and then therefore what the kid actually ends up reading. So yeah, it's very true.
01:23:34
Speaker
And what's the, obviously, um we all want to inspire the youth and, uh, with our incredible words, but what's the, is there like a, is it like a big financial boost to, if you've managed to sell into schools and things like that, because I, in my head, I would imagine they only buy like a a handful of copies.
01:23:58
Speaker
can be i think if you do a school visit um you're more likely to sell more copies because obviously yeah they'll encourage the kids like oh we've got a class of 30 kids 25 them have bought a copy for you for themselves even so that's probably more how it would happen and But yeah, you're right. It was probably like one to two copies in a school library. Yeah, it can be up and down. It's basically a, I mean, lot often, you know, they'll get sent these copies. So I'm sure with my first book with Chicken House, it must have been sent to like 20, 30 schools. So they weren't buying the copy, but that's essentially advertising and it's quite cheap advertising actually. because they're putting it on their social media and then other schools are looking at that thinking oh they have a copy of that we don't have a copy of that and then you know school book awards as well I'm in three school book awards this year and you know I've been to school visits where I've sold basically no books and I went to a school visit recently which was for a book award and I think I sold nearly 200 books and in the local waterstones I'd outsold sunrise on the reaping in the first week of being out I'd outsold it because they put up like a top 10 yeah so I was like take that sunrise of the who yeah as Suzanne Collins' tears is why I bathed in that man. She was so upset. She laughed out to me, the dystopian queen. yeah, it did really well at that school.
01:25:12
Speaker
And they obviously bought loads copies and it was shortlisted for their book award and it didn't win, whatever, robbed by Cynthia as per usual. Cynthia! Cynthia! Yeah, they bought loads books and so that obviously was a huge, that'll be I'll see it on my royalty statement in two to five years' time. And you'll have a little cycle. It'll be great. And that'll be why. So I'll have to write down and remember why there was such a big spike. But um yeah, it does. It does help to sell books. i do I don't really agree with people. Sometimes people say like, oh yeah, I'm selling so many books. I'm doing so well because i'm doing these school visits. But if you're paying a lot of money to say travel for the school visit, you're missing a day of work to travel for the school visit. And then you sell like 30 books. Well, really at the end of the day, the amount of time, effort and ah money you've put in to sell maybe 30 books is...
01:26:02
Speaker
wasn't that helpful in terms of making that book a big bestseller so not necessarily the biggest gatekeeper schools because it's not necessarily the only way to sell books and going in to sell books that way but also I do just think that's where a lot of kids especially look for their books is at school they'll ask at school yeah you know obviously there is an opportunity to make a decent chunk of sales but I guess it's, yeah, it's more of just ah getting your books out there, getting your, extending your reach. Yeah. Finding a bigger audience.
01:26:31
Speaker
Yeah. Okay. And then on from teachers sort of similarly, but sort of moving out from, uh, YA and Kidlet, uh, librarians.
01:26:43
Speaker
Um, yeah. tell Tell me about librarians. Tell me about how, how that process works, what they're gatekeeping, what they're keeping from us. What are they keeping from us? Why must they keep it from us? and Well, obviously librarians have, so it's interesting you say about like YA that's gone older, because again, a bit like an independent bookseller, librarians also have a responsibility to make sure that while they're not gatekeeping books from kids that say want to read up, they're also not giving out inappropriate content to the wrong people. So I totally get that. And of course, they literally have training on this and stuff.
01:27:16
Speaker
um And I know it works very differently in America. They have to like license books to read per year. Whereas in the UK, you get paid when they buy the book. So they'll buy the book in. And then you also get paid when people borrow the book. You get like 10p, borrow whatever. And it's capped to, I want to say 6,000, but that could be outdated information. But it's, um you know, it's extra money. So free money.
01:27:36
Speaker
So when people say, why can't I just pirate a book? It's the same as borrowing from the library. No, it's not ah because I get paid if you borrow it from the library. So that's really good. And also, that this is a gatekeeper thing, I think. So i think a lot of people think of, and I'm sure there's other ones that's not just this, but the Carnegie Medal. So the Carnegie Medal, the judges do like a two-year stint, I believe that's right. And it's usually someone like a librarian.
01:27:58
Speaker
And they come in for their two-year stint and they nominate books to go on the long list. yeah for the Carnegie prize so if you're in with a librarian that can nominate your book there's this very long list the long list um for the Carnegie prize it's a huge thing you can put on the front of your book I think pretty much everyone knows especially in the UK the Carnegie prize and people look at the Carnegie prizes has it won the Carnegie medal must be really good book has it been shortlisted nominated longlisted whatever because I think they do nominations then longlist then shortlist it's very important So that is technically a gate that you can't, if if the librarians ever heard of your book, you're never going to be an iconic in this. That's so true. Because they've not heard of it.
01:28:37
Speaker
Yep. And there's they have a children's one and an adult medal for that. Yeah. Important. yes but again it's well i guess um i forget what it's called the the the payout that you get that's capped from from library rentals yeah yes plr um which obviously you would want to be on side with librarians or at least be in the zeitgeist so that librarians can find your book to so that they can um keep it in their library Yes. So like I have before reached out to local libraries when I've had a note. So you can go on library catalogs. Most of the time they're unlocked and have a look and see if your book's there. If it's not there, I've reached out to the library and before. So my local one, I actually took a free copy of my book down and donated it to the library, my small library in my village.
01:29:29
Speaker
um And now it's in the official library system for Derbyshire libraries. So I will get paid every time it has a borrow, which is obviously the only reason I did it. I didn't do it at the kindness of my heart. I did it because I'm a cold blooded killer author who just wants that money. But also it was quite nice to actually see it in the library. and I do enjoy that it's in the library and that, you know, local kids can borrow that book. So yeah, I donated all three of my books to my local library.
01:29:52
Speaker
Okay, great. Yeah. That seems like a worthwhile thing to do. Right. it Just, you know, if you have a bunch of libraries near enough that you can do that and that they're willing to take donations. Yeah. No reason not to, I guess.
01:30:04
Speaker
um I guess... the the The final thing on the list, ah which kind of ties into what we were talking about, Carnegie Award, um is is judging panels and awards, which we've we've touched on ah various points throughout this this discussion, but pretty self-explanatory, isn't it?
01:30:23
Speaker
bunch of people judging whether your thing wins or not. If you win, there's often a very good incentive, which could be, um, if nothing else, exposure yeah in the case of something like Carnegie or the Booker or whatever it might be. yeah Um, and then in, if you're looking at the debut authors or like, um, unagented authors, unsigned authors, it can often be a book deal or, uh, um, agent
Literary Awards & Listener Contributions
01:30:51
Speaker
signing. Although I think the agent signing one is, I see it less and less.
01:30:56
Speaker
Yes. Yeah. they do I think agents, certainly maybe the agents have had bad experiences with that and they're like, i don't want to do that anymore. i suppose if it's like promised. So we were in a competition at RightMentor and there's no promise that the agent will sign you.
01:31:09
Speaker
At the end of the day, we've created, we've curated a shortlist for them to read and it might, they might not have a gap for any of those six, 10, 10, 10, 10 books on their list so they might not necessarily want to sign it um but we do often have agents sign our winners katherine foxfield won our um book award when chloe seager was and sign i remember yeah so they do often sign but yeah i don't i don't think i like the ones where they like you're forced to sign the person because it feels it feels forced right yes yeah yeah Yeah. and And you haven't, like we were saying before, you know, a huge part of um that process agents like to sit down with an author and meet them before they kind of do the final signing off yeah just to make sure that, you know, there's a vibe that this is like, these are two people that can get along. It's more than just a book.
01:31:56
Speaker
You do wonder about the longevity of those relationships where they're forced to sort of work together, don't you? Yeah, forced to work together, exactly. Yeah. And also, most competitions are judged anonymously for obvious reasons.
01:32:07
Speaker
So you know nothing about the author before they win. That's so true. That would be weird to sign them. There could be anyone. Yeah. yeah Yeah, that's... What if they're like in prison or something? I'd probably get the north an agent quicker. probably get a frenzy. Yeah, do you reckon? Yeah. Probably some T's and C's in the competition somewhere. An enter our children's book competition.
01:32:33
Speaker
yes um Yeah. I don't know what else it's just to say in terms of, obviously, a judging panel is by definition a gatekeeper. yes And yeah, this this is a way, this is not a surefire way to break into, as ah as we've just discussed, you know, you can get agents out of this. And I've spoken to authors who have um had attention from agents after, in the wake of either winning a competition or being shortlisted for something, because agents do pay attention yeah to those, you know, and they'll be actively looking at those and reading through those things. And they do sometimes reach out to people who do,
01:33:13
Speaker
shortlist, longlist, win, probably more likely. um So it is a way into publishing, but I've also spoken to authors who have won competitions, many competitions before they were able to secure an agent. It's not the be all and end all. It can help. No, but it's... Even when you've got an agent and a publishing deal already, like I believe that when Orbital, Samantha Harvey won the... um ah Booker Prize last year. it was one of the first ever Booker Prize winners that immediately went into like the top 10 bestsellers.
01:33:45
Speaker
So it wasn't even necessarily that the previews but winning the Booker Award actually pushed a lot of those other books. like Orbital was one of the first ones. to get into that chart off the back of winning the Booker Prize, which I think is interesting.
01:33:57
Speaker
That is interesting. Not even necessarily a golden. It definitely boosts sales because I had Karin Jennings on a while ago on on the and Wrong podcast and her she was she was publishing novels with with um and small sort of finding a very small audience and then one of her novels got long listed for the Booker and, and not, you know, shortlisted, not just longlisted. And she said that was a, you know, financially that was a life changing, um, time for her. So I know it definitely boosts sales. I think a lot of people pay a lot of attention to the booker list. yes yeah
01:34:35
Speaker
Um, Yeah. Whether that, obviously that doesn't compete with your huge commercial hits. Yes. That's the other thing. And a book of, pret yeah, I've just checked. It's the first book of prize winner to reach the top of the UK bestseller chart within the week of its win, which surprised me because you would think that another booker had been number one the week that it's announced. Cause I think it is announced at the correct time, AKA, you know, what is it? Books have to come out on a Thursday in the UK because they measure Wednesday to Wednesday, something like that.
01:35:06
Speaker
So yeah, weird. but on do they when did the book actually come out uh it'll have come out in 2024 that's what that's what i mean it's like a lot of you know most of the booker prize winners are literary fiction and a lot of the people who are going to buy and read a lot of the target audience for that has already read it by the time you know they'll read it on the nomination fifth of december 2023 i've just checked because it'll have been eligible for the 24 award you know they have it like what is it due to you know it's interesting when you can but you say that's the first winner of the booker prize i wonder how many people read a lot of the books off the long list
01:35:49
Speaker
Yeah, I think that's common. because i said And also those books immediately get discounted, of course. It's another marketing thing, right? Especially on Kindle and stuff. And Orbital is a very short book. um It's a sci-fi, almost collection of short stories. And ah it's like 200 pages. So it's very it feels more accessible than other Booker winners, actually, I would argue, if you want to get into reading.
01:36:11
Speaker
I love a short book. I also wonder if you're looking at the sales boost from the Booker Prize, I would imagine it's quite similar for everything in the long list up to, up to basically the winner. Yes.
01:36:24
Speaker
The winner will obviously have a bigger boost, but I would say if you're in the long list, probably the sales boost is same being in the short list. It's announced everywhere as well. I feel like, you know, there's an image of the book stacked up that you see on the Wardstone socials that you see on the Amazon front page. I do like that. Yeah. Very pretty. They always stack them really nicely. Very aesthetic.
01:36:43
Speaker
Yeah. That's what matters the most. uh that kind of wraps up what we had in terms of gatekeepers of publishing um any other honorable mentions anything that we've that we've missed that you guys think we we could put on
01:37:01
Speaker
it was pretty extensive i think yes we did cover many many gatekeeper we solved it yeah um and if anyone listening can think of more uh gatekeepers you can message us either individually or on you know on socials on on whatever website you want to reach us on we're all available um or if you have any stories about gatekeepers that you want us to talk about, kind of discuss, we we can do completely anonymously. That's absolutely fine. But we're happy if you have like an anecdote about publishing, about gatekeepers that you've encountered, we're happy to discuss it without naming any names.
01:37:38
Speaker
um That's absolutely fine. In fact, we encourage it. We encourage you to message us, ask us questions, tell us your stories. We got a really good response to our last season, I think. We did. yeah Yeah, we love hearing from everybody.
01:37:51
Speaker
Yes, indeed. I think that about wraps it up. and For me, I think the the misconcep the big misconception is like when people think that people that that some of these gatekeepers are doing it for like vindictive reasons or just like a feeling of superiority. Right. And I think that the main thing and what I'm trying to do with a lot of it is just like humanizing them yeah and just remember that like agents and editors and everyone that we've talked about that they are all just humans and for the most part they all love books and they just want the best books out in the world yeah and that's that's really the prime directive Yes, exactly. And I always like to think as well, despite any of the gatekeepers mentioned, cream always rises to the top.
01:38:37
Speaker
You do see these books that don't get any prize wins and don't have a huge book deal and don't have a huge marketing budget and take 10 years to find an agent and take another 10 years find publisher. And they do they do get there.
01:38:49
Speaker
So I would like to hope that the gatekeepers are not necessarily in charge of everything. Yeah. And BookTok's kind of proved that some, there's some books that came out years ago yeah that then, and they and they did, they did fine when they came out, but then they've suddenly got picked up yeah on TikTok and then they've had this whole resurgence, which is like yeah way bigger yeah than their initial launch. So if you write something that resonates with people, um i feel like, yeah, you're right. It will always find a
Current Reads & Viewing Activities
01:39:21
Speaker
way. yeah You just have to stick at it.
01:39:23
Speaker
Yeah, for sure. um This has been a long one. So just very quickly, ah anything you guys are anything new that you guys are watching, reading, listening to?
01:39:35
Speaker
have you been up to? ah The Last of Us is back. Yay. Yes, it is. know. I'm sad. I can't watch it. And we can all be sad again. We can all be sad again. No spoilers if you're catching up later or you're going to binge it, but get ready to be sad is your only spoiler. So...
01:39:52
Speaker
I mean, that's the same for season one. It's just a sad boy time that we all love. yeah I've been enjoying that. um I am currently reading um the, it's quite a new book actually, Silver Elite.
01:40:08
Speaker
You guys heard of this one? Oh, right. Yeah. I'm just still checking that. By Danny Francis. Sorry if I've pronounced any of that wrong. Yeah. So it's a new dystopian book that just seems to be everywhere. And I was influenced to buy it. was influenced by TikTok. And I thought, go on then. I'll give it a And they're calling it like Fourth Wing meets Hunger Games.
01:40:25
Speaker
Okay. I was like, okay, I'll give it a go. and So yeah, been I've literally just started I've just read chapter one, but it is very grabby. So I can see why it's going to do. I think it's to very well. um That's my prediction. My hot tip, guys. Book that is everywhere does well. I'm enjoying it. Yes. Surprise, surprise. Oh, and I watched as a movie. um If you ever guys haven't seen it yet, Sinners.
01:40:49
Speaker
Such a good film. I've heard it's really good. I've heard that, yeah. It's like my favourite thing ever. I wanted it to be like a 22-episode TV series. Oh, so good. So yeah, go see some of it as well. It's really good. Yeah.
01:41:00
Speaker
I watched um the Bob Dylan movie. Didn't love it. haven't seen it. A complete unknown. Timothee Chalamet. yeah yeah he's not complete unknown is he i've heard of him um yeah i just i just it didn't grab me i didn't feel like i i didn't feel like i got inside the head of bob dylan and i was excited because i think it's the same team that did walk the line and i think that's such a good film about johnny cash h Um, so yeah, I didn't love it. Uh, also watching last of us, obviously, I've just started watching the final seat. No, the most recent season of invincible. i love that show.
01:41:38
Speaker
um and I have, uh, and I'm back in fantasy with my reading. I've started reading, um, a little hatred by Joe Abercrombie, which is like the next trilogy that I haven't read by him.
01:41:52
Speaker
well Yeah. Naomi, what are you doing? Well, cancelled all of our subscriptions to everything. I am not watching The Last of Us. I am on physical media, guys. DVDs exist still. And we are watching the House of the Dragon.
01:42:10
Speaker
And I'm not that fast. What, on physical media? Yeah. We got it on Blu-ray. Okay. I'm actually not that fussed on it. It's okay. I don't know. are you on? Season one? Yeah. we're about I think we've got the last episode tonight. It's all right.
01:42:28
Speaker
but I don't know. know what you mean. i it's It's no Game of Thrones. Yeah. And also, you know what happens to their family lineage. Well, exactly, yeah. Yeah. um Spoiler alert, but yeah. And then, what am I reading? think it's good, but... Yeah, I just...
01:42:44
Speaker
the right oceans I think it's good, but it's not Game of Thrones. Yeah, it's well made. I like all the actors and everything, but just the writing doesn't seem to be hitting the same stride. And it's so slow and it's so, it's way more political. and It's not as good as the It is a lot more political, yeah. It's all politics.
01:43:01
Speaker
they I think they said, look what people liked about Game of throne Thrones and we'll just do that. Yeah. Yeah. And then there's no like relief from it. Then again, watch the last episode and come back to us. Right. Okay. Yes.
01:43:14
Speaker
Something to look forward to. Um,
01:43:19
Speaker
um and then I'm reading some ve Schwab, uh, vicious, which actually I bought on Kindle like four years ago and never read. And I was looking through my library one night because I couldn't sleep and I found that. So I started reading that and it's actually really good.
01:43:34
Speaker
yeah That's fun. Fun to go back and find something that you'd got ages ago. i know You're on your TBR. rude wow no one does that she's actually doing it that's when you cancel your subscriptions you have to to tbr yeah god forbid amazing um well that about wraps this episode up um like we said if you've got any questions or you think there's anyone we missed out in the gatekeepers uh send us a message uh or if you've got any anecdotes about publishing that you want us to discuss we will do it completely anonymously um you can send us that as well And we'll see you in the next episode. Okay, bye.
01:44:14
Speaker
Bye.
01:44:17
Speaker
Thanks for putting up with our nonsense for another episode. To stay tuned to everything we're up to, you can follow the podcast on all socials at The Chosen Tropes. Follow Melissa at Meliva, Naomi at Naomi G. Writes, and Jamie at Jamie X. Greenwood.
01:44:30
Speaker
Don't forget to check out Naomi and Melissa's books as well as the Right and Wrong podcast. Thanks again, and we'll see you on the next trope.