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S3.E5 - Contemporary Fantasy
95 Plays9 months ago
Fantasy is in a fascinating spot right now with romantasy being more popular than ever and Brandon Sanderson breaking crowdfunding records left and right, so on this episode we jump into what has become a very popular part of all this, contemporary fantasy settings.
- Naomi Gibson, author of Every Line of You, Game Over Girl
- Melissa Welliver, author of The Undying Tower, My Love Life and the Apocalypse, Soulmates and Other Ways to Die
- Jamie Greenwood, creator & host of the Write and Wrong Podcast
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Transcript
Introduction and Character Analysis
00:00:00
Speaker
Do you reckon Christian Grey is different characters? Whoa! You had it here first. I'm just finished it. After every episode was like, oh my gosh, I'm so angry at these toxic characters. Like, she'll have more food in my mouth, press next episode. Because I loved it, but obviously I hate it. This is so much fun. Because this is my Malfoy Hermione family. Yes! She shouldn't have done that. Stop trying to make Neville happen. It's too wholesome.
Contemporary Fantasy Trends
00:00:39
Speaker
Okay, so continuing our journey of going through all of the different things that we might, we think might trend or people we talk to think might be popular in this year and publishing in the first episode of this season, we are going to look at
00:00:56
Speaker
I don't know if we actually talked about this much in episode one, but I think it's something we were talking about afterwards and decided that it actually probably was. We think this might be a trend. It's been growing over the years and it's contemporary fantasy or like modern urban fantasy.
00:01:12
Speaker
And I think this has become a much more, how to phrase this, publishers I think seem more keen to go with this kind of fantasy than traditional sort of high fantasy stuff at the moment outside of like romanticy, which is obviously having a moment.
00:01:32
Speaker
So yeah, we're going to do this one. Let's jump straight in. So with this, I mean, it's pretty self-explanatory. It's basically like fantasy, but set usually within like the real world itself and sort of periphery to that or kind of involving modern ideas and technologies and things like that. So let's start off with Melissa. Melissa, what was the trope that you wanted to talk about?
00:01:59
Speaker
Yeah, so I don't know if this is the name of a specific trope. So usually what I do when we're doing this is I go to my favorite website, TV Tropes, and I look through because it's one of those things where sometimes if I love something, because tropes get such a bad rap, I'm like, is that a trope still? Or is this just something I love? Or is this something that's overdone? And does that make it a trope? But I said like supernatural police force. So what I mean by that is in all of these
00:02:28
Speaker
like modern fantasy type things where it's set in the real world and there's some sort of supernatural thing that's affecting everyday life. There's always like some, well not always, but there's quite often some sort of police force. I think it's interesting because we've taped, I don't know if this is ruin continuity, but we have taped an episode about crime.
Supernatural Police and Detective Tropes
00:02:46
Speaker
And I know that Chicken House's super lead this year is Amy Jordan's All the Hidden Monsters, and we're obviously talking about trends. And that is crime, romanticy, fantasy type five set in modern day Manchester. And I think it fits really well with that sort of thing, because if you're setting something in the real world and you have a fantasy
00:03:09
Speaker
element especially fantasy monsters like if you have any horror elements or monsters things that are messing up life for all the human beings and might reveal the secrets and all that kind of stuff there's pretty much always some sort of supernatural police force that's in charge of keeping either that secret or keeping humans safe from the big bad and I quite like it although I must admit I think sometimes it's not done very well so for example I think it ranges from everything from one person so I was thinking like Buffy
00:03:37
Speaker
comes into this category, because Buffy's the Slayer. She's like the sheriff. That is her thing, isn't it? She's the sheriff. She goes around making sure vampires stay in the crypt. That is her job. And she has a little team, and it almost reminds me of a CSI team. She has her team who stay at home and do all the research.
00:03:56
Speaker
like physics. They have like, you know, Giles in the library checking like, Oh, I'm just going to check this grimoire and see which monster of the week it is so that you can fight it really well. Then they give her the information and she goes and fights and she has, you know, her good cop bad cop partnership, whether it be like Spike or Angel and are they like going out with each other? And I feel like it's very police procedural coded.
00:04:19
Speaker
And I think that works really well. They even have jurisdictions, because there's Faith, who's the other Slayer, and she's a Slayer in a different area. Exactly. And they have the thing where all of the Slayers, and I'm not even going to say spoilers, because guys, it's more than five years old, you know my rule. But there is, obviously, when Buffy dies and comes to life again, big spoiler, they have lots of Slayers that are awoken. So there's a little police force, and they're training them, and it's like an academy where they're training them.
00:04:48
Speaker
in How to Fight Vampires and in my police academy like suddenly. And then I think it goes all the way up to like entire departments that are even maybe government controlled. So we had a really quick chat before the podcast about RIPD, the amazing film with Ryan Reynolds.
00:05:07
Speaker
Um, and essentially if no one's seen it, it's about, um, a police department in the afterlife that basically goes after like, but souls gone bad and ghosts gone bad and essentially demons and try and lock them up or indeed like execute them. To be honest, there's like several scenes where they just kill them. So I don't know why they're particularly trying to capture them. They're already dead. So I don't know. I can't remember. I guess send them to limbo. I don't know.
00:05:30
Speaker
Very good point. What are the life and death stakes when you're already dead? But yeah, it's definitely a thing where they're trying to protect the humans and they take on police officers from real life who have died and they were such good police officers, they decided to invite them to RIPD. And I was saying that felt very like men in black coded, which I know is sci-fi. It is men in black, right? It is men in black.
00:05:53
Speaker
Exactly and I know men in black is sci-fi however the way that they code the aliens because they don't go to space or anything like that and because each alien is almost like its own magical creature with some sort of magical ability like it can you know make it rain or it can read minds or whatever
00:06:08
Speaker
I do feel like it's fantasy more than sci-fi and that is essentially an entire government department where they recruit people and it is specifically so that they can make sure that humans don't find out about the aliens, right? And then they can travel around safely and so they're basically a police department. So that's one of my, I really like that trope. I think it can be done well. It can be a bit cringe, but I do think it works really well within modern fantasy setting. Yeah, it does. Yeah. Yeah. I think like, um,
00:06:37
Speaker
kind of similar and not similar in terms of like vibe and writing, but in terms of the setup, Constantine is kind of similar to that statue. It's true. It's angels and demons and stuff. Yeah, there's a few sort of movies like that. Yeah, angels and demons. And it's just him and like basically going around cleansing, exercising demons and things.
00:07:00
Speaker
Yeah, that's true. That is similar. It's that idea, isn't it? That you could be walking past something. That's why it works so well in the modern day, because it's like, it could be real, you know? I mean, it's not. Yeah. And it creates action, like quite nicely as well. And I think it's a sort of thing where it's like, when am I going to get
00:07:18
Speaker
There's lots of things out there. The most obvious example being Harry Potter where it's when am I going to get my letter to Hogwarts? I think there's lots of things like where am I going to get my invite to the magic underbelly? And this is one of the ways in to be like a police
00:07:32
Speaker
type person and I think also what we were talking about in the crimes episode, hopefully that's already gone out, even if it hasn't when it comes out, I think what we talk about a lot is like people like to solve the mystery and they like to feel really involved and I think with modern fantasy when it's set in the real world there is an element of this could happen or I could look out for it or you know there could be a reason why so like in Men in Black they have a little clicky pen
00:07:56
Speaker
When they click at people's faces, someone has not seen men in black and I don't know how they've managed. They click at people's faces and it flashes and they forget everything that's happened. And then you can place a memory in their mind. But of course, sometimes there are like mess ups where maybe somebody remembers something incorrectly or somebody else saw, but didn't look at the flashing.
00:08:13
Speaker
So you look for those clues in real life and you're like, that's because this is just like, I have on my phone, saved, forks, weather, on my weather app, to see whether Edward Cullen can go to school. Yeah, no, I'm completely serious. Because I'm interested. Yeah, because I am a detective. I am a true detective. Here I am working out whether the Cullens could go outside. But I love stuff where you have like little clues and then you can kind of in real life, whilst you're reading the book or watching the series, you kind of see them again.
00:08:42
Speaker
It's because a vampire was here or whatever it may be. I love that kind of stuff. You know when it's too foggy? You know when it's too foggy and you go, the dementors are breeding. Everyone else will do that. That's what you get. It's just me. It's my first thought. I did that the other day to Ollie and he was like, what? I was like, do you not think the dementors are breeding? I'm not sure we're ready for that romanticy. I really do not think we're ready for that. Yeah, we're not ready for that.
00:09:07
Speaker
I think there's a really popular trend with this that's been going on for a while. We were talking about the crime episode we did. We were talking about iZombie. There's a whole bunch of these procedural television shows where it's either there's a supernatural detective involved or it's normal people detecting supernatural stuff.
00:09:31
Speaker
Lucifer is obviously the devil is like working with a detective. Then you have like supernatural, which is, it's in the name. And then like, the experts is like a monster of the week, isn't it? Definitely. That's kind of the inverse of the trope though, because they're humans and they're trying to discover if like aliens and fantastical things are actually real or
Supernatural Societies and Realism
00:09:58
Speaker
not.
00:09:58
Speaker
you know and that they're the ones who are trying to like well they're not trying to hide it yeah that kind of work out if it's real or not and they're continually on the edges of this society that probably exists you know.
00:10:10
Speaker
Oh, that's true. Yeah, they're not hiding it. You're totally right. Yeah. That is different. Cause there are a few human, like so in supernatural, well, okay. I suppose whoever sees you're up to a supernatural, um, they're obviously human, uh, discovering all these monsters and stuff. Um, and that's what, that's what we're led to believe. Oh, the Slayer are supposed technically human. She has like super strength.
00:10:34
Speaker
and can sniff a vampire at 100 paces. She's like human plus. She's like Captain America. They can be human, but you're right. They're usually trying to keep it hidden as opposed to trying to discover the truth. Interesting.
00:10:50
Speaker
And there's a huge, the angels demons is like huge in this genre. I was looking at like literature examples of this and there's like the Dresden files is really popular where it's again, it's like angels demons kind of stuff. It's similar to Constantine in terms of theme, but it's not as dark. And then there's like Hellboy as well, if you can like comics and things.
00:11:16
Speaker
mortal instruments that's actually in humans and even thought of that one yeah i got that done that's they feel less law enforcing yes they're more um what's the word for it like maverick
00:11:29
Speaker
in law enforcement. Like homemade weapons, we're going to do it anyway. Well, this one, I do think it's interesting that you have everything from like maverick police officers, quote unquote, and then all the way through to like entire government organizations where there's a secret society. Yeah, that's my joke.
00:11:49
Speaker
No, but yeah, you're right. So I had the same thing written down right in front of me. Well, my, my only thing about this that I was thinking about was, and this is me being someone who loves fantasy and I can get really like nitty gritty with world building, but sometimes these, the like supernatural team is in some, did you guys remember Bright, the movie with Will Smith? Yes.
00:12:14
Speaker
Oh my gosh. Yeah, it is. That is so good. And they were like, it was like modern with like orcs and elves and stuff. Yeah. Yeah. But I guess that one, they didn't really have powers other than the fact that they just like the elves had pointy ears and the orcs were orcs. But the, um,
00:12:34
Speaker
Sometimes with these kinds of things, they base the kind of force too much around the real life structures of law enforcement. The reason that police are trained in the way they are and equipped in the way they are and use the kind of tactics that they use is because
00:12:54
Speaker
this is what we as human beings require to do that task. But if someone has superpowers or some kind of extra ability, then they wouldn't necessarily use that same structure. It wouldn't make sense for it to be exactly the same. But I imagine for most people, it's just a nitpick. And most people are just willing to accept, yeah, I'm sure the hierarchy would be exactly the same as the police department.
00:13:23
Speaker
I suppose that lends it believability though, doesn't it? That's what I was thinking. If it looks similar to ours, we're likely to buy into it, but I totally accept what you're saying. It wouldn't be the same. It probably wouldn't be anywhere near as bureaucratic either.
00:13:40
Speaker
Yeah, because the only example I can think of where they're sort of trying to put beings with some super abilities in their place and they do it in a really interesting and different way is in the boys, where you could argue in a way that like Vought is controlling, making sure they stay very tightly in control of the magical, like people with magical abilities. But they're doing it from like a commercialized perspective, which is quite fun and interesting.
00:14:09
Speaker
although they're still claiming to be policing it. Apart from that, though, I can't think of another example where they.
00:14:16
Speaker
do it without doing just normal structures like you would do with human police force. Yeah, like Ministry of Magic in Fantastic Beasts, that's very much just like the government. Whitehall. Yeah, very ineffectual. No wonder Voldemort wins so quickly. Maybe that is realistic actually.
00:14:46
Speaker
Yeah, that's true. But I think it's generally it's a cool trope. Like it's fun to see real life structures like translated into something else and be like, oh, wouldn't it be cool if people could do this? I do always find it fun. Yeah. Even when it's like maybe not pulled off in the best possible way, it is still fun to think about what I would do and if this was real and looking for clues and stuff. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
00:15:10
Speaker
Right, Naomi, it sounded like we tiptoed along your trope for a second there. What did you pick? So mine does actually fit very nicely with this. So yeah, it's like a group of people again, not necessarily out to protect human world though, but like kind of like a magical society of some kind. And they can be either people who do magic,
00:15:34
Speaker
either Good Magic or Bad Magic, or they're generally just a group of people who sort of pull the strings for the mortal world. Right. So this fits really nicely into vampire films, right? And so I don't read a lot of fantasy, but I recognize that I do probably watch quite a lot of it. And it fits so nicely with vampire movies. So I'm thinking Underworld, particularly Twilight and Blade, you know,
00:16:00
Speaker
They all have this evil vampire society who control the world in the background. I saw this on TV tropes and it really made me laugh.
00:16:10
Speaker
I've thought it before, but I don't think I've ever really thought it so consciously.
Secret Societies and Dynastic Influence
00:16:13
Speaker
But don't you think if you had a group who were as powerful as they claim to be, do you not think they would actually just screw all of humanity over and take over the world? They don't seem that interested, you know? It's like, oh no, we're happy to lurk in the background and pull the strings. It's like, no, we're that evil. That's the lurk in the shadows, literally the opening of Vampire Diaries. We lurk in the shadows. Why? Why? You're so powerful. You're so good looking.
00:16:39
Speaker
your looks alone would get you into any position you want what are you doing make any sense but i kind of love it there you know it's like it lends the world so much more debt and i think i think it's it stems from this idea that perhaps you know we have as humans we have this conspiracy theory of like the illuminati for example.
00:16:58
Speaker
where this group of powerful men are pulling the strings of our world. If you just build something like that into an urban fantasy, it just gives it so much more street cred. It's so easy and it's so tropey, but I love it. It's great.
00:17:12
Speaker
Because a part of us, I think a part of all of us is just thinking like that there's a tiny part of you that does think, yeah, the Illuminati might be real. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. Oh my God. No one's checking your search history Naomi. Oh my God. Um, but some of them, um,
00:17:36
Speaker
So I think what else I've seen this kind of thing in, and we watched one tour the other night for a laugh if you go to that movie with James McAvoy. What with Angelina Jolie? Yeah. Oh my gosh, yeah. And they can bend bullets, right? That's their magic. They have bullet ties for their life. There's this secret society called the fraternity, and he is recruited into it, you know, because he's the only one who can kill this big assassin. And it's like the idea that if you've got this group
00:18:05
Speaker
pulling strings of the modern day world, you know, they're taking out targets that are laid down to them by this magical loom. Which is just so ridiculous, but I kind of love it. Don't think about it too much. Yeah, don't think about it too much. These names just are woven into the tapestry and you pick them out and you go and kill them, it's great.
00:18:26
Speaker
So yeah, just that kind of idea of like a fraternity or an assassination, brotherhood sort of thing built into the modern day world. It's pretty cool. You know, I like it. I bought into it.
00:18:37
Speaker
I love it. And also they always have a really cool set for their like hangout. It's always like, oh, we're in the sewers, but you get to the sewers and they have like an amazing library with a thousand books. It's brilliant. How did this get into the sewers voice? Like they have really made it home. So true. Who were the handymen? Who were the craftsmen that came in and did this? Who did you hire to do this that didn't then sell you out? Yeah, you had to kill them after it. And honestly worth it. Worth it. The aesthetic. Yeah. Love it.
00:19:07
Speaker
It's a cool trope. Because we do discuss briefly what the trope's going to be so that we don't pick the same trope, I looked up what the common names for this kind of thing was. Because you originally said ancient powerful family. Yeah. And then I looked up and found that another name for it is ridiculously long lived family name. Official name for the trope. This generation is a very strong lineage.
00:19:32
Speaker
But that made me think of, uh, in sci-fi and fantasy on a more like grounded level. So like, um, more like grimlock kind of stuff that involves stuff that has sociopolitical sort of hierarchies built in, like dynasties, something like Game of Thrones is like a big one in this, where each house
00:19:51
Speaker
is essentially the ruler of their city and the surrounding lands. And it's all about what your surname is, basically, in chemotrones. And then sci-fi, something like Dune, it's the same kind of thing. Yeah, Dune is good. Yeah, Arrakis. Arrakis?
00:20:07
Speaker
question mark. I think that's right. Is that the planet? There's a lot of A's. I don't feel like this too many. How could you forget? I know. How could I forget all Paul? Yeah, sorry. I forgot all about Paul. Apologies.
00:20:24
Speaker
I love how there's all these cool names and then he's just called Paul. He's just... I think they do the name thing well in, obviously I'm going to bring up, I've already brought up one, Vampire Diaries, which has my favourite. So they're literally ancient. So the family that all vampires are descended from are the Michelsons because their dad was called Michael.
00:20:49
Speaker
In very ancient times, they're more like a thousand years old and they don't really have a last name. So they're all called the Michelsons. So there's Nick Klaus, Michelson. Is that the original? Well yeah, then they have another show called The Originals and one called Legacies.
00:21:05
Speaker
So they really dig into the whole secret vampire. Like at the beginning of the vampire, you don't even know where vampires come from. And then it ends up they come from one family. And if you kill somebody in that family, every vampire they've ever sired dies. So that family is in charge of everything, basically, in the vampire world. They are pretty much in charge of everything.
00:21:27
Speaker
That's a cool way of doing that hierarchy because it's like their life allows all the other lives to exist. If you kill them, you either have to imprison them and keep them protected or you have to serve them because if they die, you die.
00:21:43
Speaker
Exactly. So this is exactly what happens. Interesting. And also they're awful. Of course they are because they're a thousand years old and they're really powerful. So we want to kill them. And that's how we usually deal with things with vampire diaries. It has a very high body count. However, in this, you can't do it. So you have to, it's funny you think about the political stuff. You have to go into the politics because you can't just kill them because you don't know it's every vampire they've sired and every vampire, any of those vampires sired. So if you kill one of the five siblings, you'll kill a fifth of all vampires and you don't know whether you were sired from that vampire. So it's very dangerous.
00:22:12
Speaker
But it's like quite interesting. Yeah. It really is telling it to me. I want to go and watch it. Yeah, I see. Go watch it. Everyone watch from the shadows. Vampires is like, it does seem like it fits really well into this, but at the same time, it's kind of a cheat in some ways because they are like all immortal. They're all living forever. Yeah. And their family is not necessarily, they're not being sired by their family, most likely.
00:22:38
Speaker
like they're not blood related. Exactly. So like the Cullens aren't blood related. In the Vampire Dairies, the originals are blood related, but that's because they are, their mother was a witch and created the vampire spell and made them vampires. So they are blood related because they were human blood relations. And obviously in the Vampire Dairies, they love that because they've got the Salvatore brothers who are human blood relations that were both made vampires, but you are correct. They get adopted into
00:23:01
Speaker
these vampire families which are all about found family because obviously they can't reproduce unless it's, you know, we'll just forget Twilight for a second. They can't reproduce.
00:23:15
Speaker
Yeah, it's about the family name, I guess, more than anything. So if they are taking on the name, I guess it almost feels like a company. This is what House of Usher did really well. House of Usher is brilliant. Yeah, they are technically all related. They all have different mums, but the same dad. Yeah, it's really clever.
00:23:33
Speaker
However, in a way, it's actually to do with just how they are in the business. That's how they're related into the family. Like some of their partners are more in the family than them just because they're better at business than them and feels like it becomes more... Yeah, because the youngest one is trying to find his way into the family business, isn't he? He's trying to prove that he can do it too. Exactly, yeah. And that's his whole thing. But then they just don't care. They're just like, oh, whatever, you're an idiot.
00:23:58
Speaker
So we don't need more billionaires, please. We're already the megabills, so we don't need you. I don't watch this, but it sounds very similar to succession. Yeah, it's succession with like demons and stuff. It's very good. I'm suddenly more interested in it. It's really good, it's really good. It's the important demons. It's definitely horror. It's just about gore.
00:24:22
Speaker
Yes, and the devil's in it. Yeah, it's about the devil. Making like a bargain. Yeah, so it's definitely magical realism. It's set in the real world, but the devil is sending otherworldly things to destroy these families. Okay, I'm not going to check this out. That definitely fits. I can watch it, Gabby, you can watch it. Yeah, that's true. It's not too bad.
00:24:47
Speaker
Speaking back on the lineages, how do you guys feel about hidden lineages and like the kind of twist reveal where it's like they were related all along? I mean, is it even a twist anymore at this point? Like it's been done so many times. I mean, I was thinking of this orphan at the beginning of the book and the whole thing is about how they're not actually an orphan. You know, that's wanted, exactly that story. I was thinking of Luke Skywalker.
00:25:17
Speaker
I was thinking Skywalker. Yeah. Yeah. And then they tried to do it with, you know, I can't even literally remember her name because those films are so deleted from her brain. Daisy Ridley. Daisy Ridley's character. Yeah. They try and do it with her and imply, they imply that she might be because she's an orphan and then actually she's not, she's not related to them. What a twist. That's more an argument between directors, between movies.
00:25:43
Speaker
Yeah, which we will not get involved in. I'm pretty sure she was supposed to be, I'm pretty sure when JJ Abrams made the first one, and this is pure speculation on my part, I've never met JJ Abrams or spoken to him about this. What, haven't you? But I'm pretty sure she was supposed to be Obi-Wan Kenobi's daughter.
00:26:07
Speaker
Right. And then in the second movie with a different writer director, he decided to like completely blow all of the storylines up.
Family Dynamics in Fantasy
00:26:17
Speaker
And then JJ Abrams came back for the third one and kind of at the last minute pulled it back so that she was Palpatine's granddaughter. And I didn't even know how that happened. I actually forgot about that. Do it. I forgot all about that. I totally forgot. Maybe that's how it happened.
00:26:36
Speaker
But it's funny because one of my editorial notes for one of my books was that everyone has to be involved somehow to make it more punchy, to make the things that everyone does more impactful.
00:26:52
Speaker
Coincidences are dangerous in fiction. Yeah, exactly. It gives people more motivation, it gives a background to why they do what they do and why they are what they are. It's a very easy reach and I think that's possibly why it happens. Because she's related to him, she's really powerful. Okay, we get it.
00:27:13
Speaker
And it kind of gives an example without having to dig because they do some vampire diaries as well, Naomi. They have a character that means that
00:27:25
Speaker
Nina de Breve, who plays the main character, can basically play several different characters because they have a doppelganger that's born every few generations, obviously looks exactly the same every time, and she's used for a magical spell. And so you find out her parents aren't, her pay thought they were, and was she adopted? And obviously you meet people who've been made into vampires that look exactly like her, and she can just play like 15, she must've been, I don't know what they were paying her when she was on that show, but sometimes she was playing half the cast.
00:27:53
Speaker
just half the cast with an indigreb. And then everyone else was just there to have one line. And she was just arguing with herself like most of the time, which is quite fun. But it did mean it does did give them a little bit more scope to like open up that part of the law.
00:28:07
Speaker
which can be quite fun as well because obviously she is related and lets it... I think ancient magic always seems a bit more special and impressive than rich nouveau magic. You know like when people have just arrived and you're like, oh, how long have you been a magician? Or a joker Malfoy of me. There are some wizards that wizarding families that are worth knowing Potter. That's me. Exactly.
00:28:31
Speaker
It's interesting when the older families come into it and you know that there's like some sort of history which is exactly why like even in Game of Thrones like House of the Dragons really interesting because the reason it was even put on as a TV show was because they knew there would be interest from what happened in Game of Thrones with what happened in this prequel.
00:28:49
Speaker
Because in Game of Thrones, it starts with literally two Targaryens left. Yes, exactly. It's interesting to see what happened with those other Targaryens. Yeah, exactly. We all know that the Targaryens used to control everything. It's an awesome setup to be like, wow, how did they go from everything to nothing?
00:29:09
Speaker
Plus, family's weird. Everyone loves talking about family. It's interesting. True. Family drama is an almost universally relatable thing. Exactly. When you've got something that's already magical, if you add an ancient family in and you can think about how you would fit into that family, it's interesting.
00:29:26
Speaker
Also it's like this is like the same as so much fancy and sci-fi where it's like you have like a crazy thing that you can't relate to but is amazing and kind of really interesting and then the thing that keeps you like that really locks you into a story is usually the relatable elements of it so a family drama or whatever it is. Do you know what I just thought of?
00:29:47
Speaker
Harry Potter related to the Peverells. Oh, yes. We love a bit of retroactive groups fitting things in. The Peverells, man. They're the three. The brothers. The Hallows. He was related to them? Yeah. I don't remember that. Because he's technically related to Voldemort. I don't know, 20s cousins or something. I mean, this is like, aren't we all related to Genghis Khan or something stupid like that?
00:30:18
Speaker
I mean, yeah. It feels like you can wedge it in, however you need to wedge it in, especially in a magical setting, especially if you're doing Genghis Khan. It's quite easy. One thing I was thinking though, the Luke Skywalker thing is like, I think it was fine at the time because it was, it was less played out then. Now it's more like, yeah, you're probably related to someone. You're probably special somehow, yeah.
00:30:41
Speaker
One, also an older one in Lord of the Rings, but I think it's cooler because... So Luke Skywalker obviously doesn't know who he is. Aragorn does know who he is and is actively keeping it under wraps from everyone. And that's kind of cool. He doesn't want to be King, does he?
00:31:00
Speaker
Exactly. And that's part of the character, part of the mystery. The reluctant hero type thing is very popular within this trope. I think the sort of black sheep of the family coming away from the society from like basically the company that makes up the family is also quite a common trope within this trope, right?
00:31:19
Speaker
This is, I mean, I know it's in theory, non-fiction. It's like fiction, non-fiction, but like the crown. A bit of it. It's your favorite character. Tough one. The brother not say, I think.
00:31:39
Speaker
Yeah. I mean, it's a fun joke, but like all the other ones, you were saying Melissa, coincidence is like can be problematic. I think it's fine to have coincidences in the way that Naomi was saying, like it's good to tie characters together because as a reader or a reviewer, there's only so many people you can be invested in. So if you're tying them together, it's easier.
00:32:03
Speaker
but if you do too many coincidences where it's like oh but they were this and then they also like harry potter it's like he's this and he's also related to these people and he was also given this when he was young and also then it's like come on.
00:32:15
Speaker
Yeah, it is very much interwoven, isn't it? Which is interesting because they do focus so heavily on found family in a lot of those things. So then it's like, is it important or is it not important? Like I always think about how the original, you know, people say blood is thicker than water, but isn't it actually, um, blood of the, but blood of the covenant is thicker than the water of the womb. So it actually means the opposite. So when we say blood is thicker than water, we actually mean you should go with your brotherhood as opposed to your family. That's actually what that means.
00:32:45
Speaker
but people think it means you should stick with blood family. A lot of the time that you end up getting these characters who, like you say, they find their family, and then they end up having a traditional one anyway. Do you know what I mean? Yes, exactly. That's what I was thinking. Like Harry, he finds his family, he's an orphan, he finds his friends in the Weasley's, and then turns out he's from this really magical line.
00:33:09
Speaker
Yeah. And he's not an orphan at all. Yeah. At least he adopts an orphan. So could be worse. He adopts an orphan. Tonks child. Yeah, Teddy. So yeah, I'm so sorry guys. We've all read Harry Potter. You guys watched a different and read a different story. So sorry.
00:33:32
Speaker
It was a fun thing I was reading about recently. There's a new Planet of the Apes movie coming out soon. I'm so excited. Oh my gosh. I love those. Back when they started these series of reboots and the original Tramadze is Caesar, was his name. And I think the thing that they were just speaking about, like long lived names,
00:33:55
Speaker
he becomes like the leader of the apes and then through the movies stuff happens and now I assume it's like a long time after and he's long deceased. But I think they're using Caesar as a title now, which was like his name, which was obviously Julius Caesar's name, which became a title and we have become full circle. And I thought that was just a fun little tidbit to mention.
00:34:23
Speaker
Because it kind of is this trope. Yes, it is this trope because it's his descendants that then create, if you've watched the original original movie, which is very old now. Yeah, the whole thing is that it is the descendants of Caesar because Caesar is the original ape that gives them the mental abilities to know how to overcome the much weaker race of humans, let's be honest. Chimpanzees are cool, they're rad. Of course they win.
00:34:50
Speaker
the law though, right? Because now the humans got like gassed and lost all the intelligence. Look, I'm not saying that they didn't become slightly sad. Yeah, that is the whole, that is the entire premise though, is that it's sort of a bit like with ancient Rome or any royal family, as you were talking about, like with the crown or anything, it's all descended from one particular sort of almost mythological person.
00:35:14
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You get at a certain point, less so nowadays, but like way back when before history was recorded quite so vigorously. Yeah. The sort of great leaders became almost mythological. Exactly. Yeah.
00:35:30
Speaker
Okay, nice. Listening to both of your tropes and now looking at my trope. Nervous now. Retreading similar ground here.
World-Building and Hidden Worlds
00:35:43
Speaker
I wanted to look at parallel worlds. While I was doing this, I did end up looking a lot into
00:35:52
Speaker
parallel worlds through the kind of leaning towards secret societies kind of trope. And there's like various different ways this goes down as like portal fantasy. But I don't think portal fantasy is as popular in what we're talking about like contemporary modern urban fantasy as it used to be. Because like portal fantasy is like Alice in Wonderland, Narnia,
00:36:18
Speaker
his dark materials. I don't think it's not really having a moment. It might come back, but I don't think that's really trending right now. And I said parallel worlds, I do not mean multiverses. That is not popular right now. I don't want any more of it. Thank you. It is deeply unpopular right now. Yeah. I love portal ones though. Like, did anybody watch Primeval? I don't think anyone did apart from me. I did.
00:36:48
Speaker
I watched it with the girl from 7. 7 Up? I mean, maybe she likes 7 Up. She was S Club 7, right? Yes. It was Andrew Lee Potts and Hannah Spirit. And that was secret. That's from secret societies and policing. And it was a portal to another place. It had everything. A movie for us. What a show.
00:37:10
Speaker
Um, but I was portal. I don't think portable maybe in middle grade, um, portal fantasies is still popular. Um, I think in middle grade, I think it works really well.
00:37:21
Speaker
LD Lipinski does some portal magic traveling society type stuff. It's really popular. Green World came out this year. That's portal fantasy. That kind of stuff, I think, works really well for middle grade because it's like pure escapism. Yes, literally. At that age, children want a totally new world. They don't want the referentialness of the real world in the kind of mixture. They don't want the Black Mirror that's being held up by all of the... Yeah.
00:37:50
Speaker
Yeah, exactly. But I think at the moment, contemporary fantasy, the stuff that's popular is there's two worlds together, and there's a secret society who live them. It's like, what Naomi said earlier, it's the idea that you could walk down the street and just completely miss something that was there the whole time and you just didn't see it. Stuff like model instruments we already talked about.
00:38:16
Speaker
The magicians, Percy Jackson, Artis Fowl, they would do this kind of thing. A whole community or secret hidden place just out of you, but very much doing the right... Harry Potter is a classic example. Platform 9 and 3 quarters exists in the real world, in the real station King's Cross between the regular platforms.
00:38:42
Speaker
And generally, I think it's fun. When it lands, I think, and this is probably, if I talk about what the hardest thing with this trope is, where I think, where the hurdle that it usually falls down at, it's probably the same as with the law enforcement itself, with the agent. It's anything that's contemporary in modern urban fantasy, I think. And the hurdle is that when you're world building, you need to make the world sort of interesting and fantastical enough that people are going to be like, wow, that's a really cool
00:39:11
Speaker
thing. That's a really cool concept. I wonder how that works, how that integrates, but then you need to make sure that it does integrate in a way that the reader or the viewer doesn't start asking too many questions. Too many questions. So you're like, is nobody at this very busy station seeing a bunch of kids with massive suitcases charging headfirst into a wall? You know what I mean?
00:39:41
Speaker
Also in London, the most surveilled city in the world. It's fine. And it's also like with modern technology, we're now asking more questions of being like, so you're telling me all of this magical stuff is happening all over the world. No camera has caught any of this. None of this has made it onto social media somehow.
00:40:04
Speaker
Yeah, that isn't very true actually. And the only way they ever seem to address it is, oh, some tinfoil of crazies have put it on the Reddit and no one's going to believe it. It's like, whatever, that would be all over Twitter in like 10 seconds. It would be trending. Reddit, Twitter, it'd be everywhere.
00:40:20
Speaker
That's why the X-Files work so well. Mulder and Scully are on the case, man. True. Yeah, they're trying. They are those tinfoil crazies who are posting on Reddit, so it's fine. The really great dynamic about X-Files is that Mulder is fully convinced and Scully is rarely convinced. Yeah, that's true. That makes it fun. And that makes such a good dynamic. Yeah, so you get the actual debate every single episode so that you can debate as well at home, which is quite fun.
00:40:46
Speaker
Whereas Harry Potter, it's just like, so how come no one knows that wizards exist? And it's like, oh, magic. Yeah, that seems fair. Yeah. The other question that when I was younger, I always asked about Harry Potter was, because I'm all right. I think Voldemort's thing is like he would like to just either enslave or like kill all the muggles because he's like, I don't care. I just want to, everyone should be wizards. He's basically. He loves it. Yeah.
00:41:12
Speaker
Yeah, but I'm like... Yeah, it's a hobby. He embraces it. Yeah, it's good to have a hobby. I always wondered like, but humans have guns and nuclear bombs. Oh, I always think the guns thing always throws me as well. Because I'm like, pulling a trigger is faster than you saying... Yeah, making a spell. Oh no, go, go. Especially the way he says it. He takes him like a minute and a half to say it.
00:41:37
Speaker
Yeah, but it's a middle grade book at the end of the day and you can't have guns, really. So therefore it's just never discussed. I feel like it is discussed more in the adult ones.
00:41:48
Speaker
the adult. They're YA, right? Yeah. Well, I mean the Fantastic Beasts ones where they're sort of in their twenties and they talk about World War II and how they're using wizards to help fight World War II. They do discuss it a bit more, but I don't know whether that is just the film director putting together something based off what is essentially a sort of fake nonfiction book, I think, I believe, Fantastic Beasts. So I don't know where that idea came from.
00:42:14
Speaker
Wasn't the book just the, it was literally just the screenplay and then put in, they printed it. Possibly. I think that's the first child. I think Fantastic Beasts was, I think it started off as some like world book day thing or something and then became, it was like a little compendium. Oh yes it did. Like she did Quidditch the ages and stuff. Yeah, I'm sure it did.
00:42:38
Speaker
Yeah, you're right. Yeah, so that would meant so that might be why to play devil's advocate, they didn't go into it massively in the children's books, but then try to sort of retroactively when you when you've got something, the reason we talk about a reporter, obviously, is because it's just so massive. It's way bigger than one person. Anyway, it's just humongous world. You can't not talk about it when talk about these tropes, because of course, it has loads of them in it.
00:42:58
Speaker
Second it not, it's huge. So I understand. I think it's, I am a big fan of when people do like historical fantasy and they they research a specific historical event and then find a way to make it be like, look, here's some kind of magic and that's how this turned out. And when it's done well, you're kind of like, oh, that's that's a cool like fun way of thinking like this would have been like how magic could have made this thing in history happen.
00:43:26
Speaker
I think them wading into World War Two and being like, oh, Wizards fought in World War Two is like, this is a risky business. It's like too much of a sticking. I think to mix in a couple of like a secret society, but then also something that on the other side of something and how did nobody see it is
00:43:44
Speaker
I talk about this in my book The Undying Tower as a little plug and yeah we talk there's like a little mention too which we'll be going into in the trilogy near the end of book one without doing any spoilers about anybody who survives or whatever but it is a trilogy so they go somewhere else in book two.
00:44:02
Speaker
And there is a secret city where most of the undying live. And it makes me think of, like in Hunger Games, where they have District 13, and everyone thinks they're not there, but actually they are there the whole time. And in fact, the capital technically knows they're there, but they keep it a secret from everyone. And they're sort of keeping a secret of what they also have from the capital, so there's no way to know that they're there until they're ready to tell you that they're there.
00:44:27
Speaker
And I like that as well, when it's a secret society and they're like, God, I'm not sound like Voldemort, but like, it's time to tell the muggles that we're here. But I do like that storyline where they suddenly decide like, like Naomi was saying, like, you are vampires. Why are you hiding in the shadows? Like, come out, have fun. It's so powerful. They did it really well in
00:44:44
Speaker
was it called Being Human on BBC? It was about a ghost of vampire and oh gosh it was really good and that it that has a storyline where all the vampires go you know what sod it why should we hide in the shadows we should totally be in charge and it's quite interesting
00:44:59
Speaker
True Blood season one did that on a kind of big political scale where a lot of season one was about how vampires had come out of hiding and were trying to be peaceful and integrate with the humans. And they had these new companies creating like manufactured blood for the vampires. Yes, synthetic blood is like a common one, isn't it, that pops up. That was really interesting taking it. There was also a movie, I can't remember what it was called, there was a movie that I watched ages ago. Daybreakers. Is it Sam Neill?
00:45:28
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. And they've got like rationing out. With vampires are in charge. The vampires are in charge and the humans are all trying to hide and they have synthetic blood, but it's not working. And they have like a blood bank, all the humans. It's really good. An obvious twist, but a really like cool story to Lexi. Yeah.
00:45:46
Speaker
Do you know what? This is all making, it's making you think about AI and how that's going to do that to us. Like the Matrix.
Magical Secrecy and Integration into Reality
00:45:55
Speaker
Basically. The Matrix is the Matrix. The Matrix is kind of portal fantasy. Yeah, because we're living in the portal, right? Isn't that the Matrix? Technically.
00:46:07
Speaker
We're the ones in the secret world and the real world is where we're having a little nap. It sounds quite chill to be fair. I don't know why we want to break the matrix anyway. It seems fine just to stay here. Let the robots deal with the ugly destroyed planet. I don't want to be there.
00:46:29
Speaker
The main one that I was thinking about for these kind of like secret societies where we touched on earlier was the mortal instruments with the, are they called shadow hunters? Yeah, I've only seen the movie. Yeah, Clary. As like a justification for, you know, saying like the hardest thing with this is making sure that your world building kind of lines up with you can believe it's the real world and that also this magic thing exists in it. The whole thing as far as I'm aware with this with mortal instruments was that
00:46:59
Speaker
normal people just can't see them. They like exist in a different wavelength or something, but they exist in the same space. But then I was confused because Clary, is it Clary? She's called Clary. Clary, yeah. She can see them, but she's also human, so everyone can see her. But then I was like, but the demons are trying to kill the humans or possess them. So like if she is interacting, does she just look like she's really drunk or something and she's like wrestling with something that no one else can see?
00:47:29
Speaker
Yeah, they go into this more in the TV series, which was actually quite fun and ran for a little bit. Yeah, so there's like a scene in a nightclub where she's just arguing with thin air, people are like, what are you doing? But she gets spotted by the shadow hunters and they're like, that girl can see the demon because she's talking to him. So then they're going into set. So yeah, it does look like that. But then they also have other secret things, which I think
00:47:52
Speaker
add to the extra and also explain why we might not see certain things. So for instance, they have these tattoos on them that give them certain abilities, but no one else, you can't see the tattoos unless you're one of the shadow hunters. So there are certain things that they can appear to humans and they will appear more normal. Yeah. So there's like extra layers put into the law to make sure that we don't know about it. It doesn't turn out that she is part of a specific lineage as well.
00:48:20
Speaker
Yes, but then they change that later when they get a different director. No, I'm joking. When they're just in later books, they decide the chemistry is too great to keep this brother and sister apart. And this is in Game of Thrones. Yeah, spoilers. Because they wanted to be together and then it was like, oh, brother and sister. And then it's like, you. And then it's like, oh, no, we want to put this. Yeah. Yeah. So later we're like, surprise. Actually, mum had an affair. You're not brother and sister. Don't worry.
00:48:46
Speaker
I don't know if I could come back, like anyone could come back from that though. I can't reprogram my brain. I can't even remember the way they do the reveal, but I do remember they decided not to make them brother and sister. Yes. Jamie's not convinced. I'm just not into incest guys, it's a personal thing. Coming back to fight us on the bum. Just like Clarit, no. Step away.
00:49:14
Speaker
But I don't know. That's one of those ones where the more I think about it, the more questions I ask. I'm like, I don't know about this divide between how this would work in the real world. We were talking about Men in Black earlier. I really like it when there is a system in place which the secret society or the hidden world, let's say, has to employ to maintain that secrecy.
00:49:40
Speaker
like it like men are black it's the flashy sick thing and that's it's cool not just because it's like a fun little detail and like it kind of explaining a lot of it it's also like it adds loads of stakes like you say like sometimes they miss someone or they like make a mistake
00:49:55
Speaker
or there's like little bits of evidence that they do, they're not like a completely blank canvas, like there is small bits of evidence around the place that they exist. And it kind of adds, it raises the stakes, right? Because it's like the, if you're following specifically the Men in Black,
00:50:11
Speaker
uh point of view then they're doing obviously you know we need to defeat the alien to like solve the mystery to save the world or whatever but also we need to not be seen but if we do get seen which they inevitably will do otherwise why bother explaining the memory thing we like we need to now make sure that we get all the people that saw us and wipe their memories it's just an interesting way to like have more tension and have more like stuff to do really like a new challenge
00:50:39
Speaker
Yeah, and it works in conjunction with, I was making a joke about tip tip for crazies, but it does make a more fun thing of, you know, those TikToks who scroll past where people have theories about what's in the North Sea. And then if you read one of these books, you're like, oh my gosh, maybe they're correct because maybe they are hiding something. And it's quite a fun way to, with modern fantasy, fit it into real stuff that you see.
00:51:00
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. They do it really well in that similar kind of thing they do in Autumn's Fowl, I think has done pretty well. Yes. Because Autumn's Fowl is a bit silly. It's kind of like a fun thing. Yeah. But the world of fairies exists, and they want to maintain their secrecy, because mainly just the reason is because humans ruin everything. And I'm like, yeah, that's fair. And they do that. They have whole teams of, upon what they call them, oh, LEP recon teams and stuff like that.
00:51:28
Speaker
And they go up and use bubbles of time-stopping stuff to contain so that they can wipe everyone's memories and things like that. There's a whole division in the law enforcement department, which is literally just reserved for humans who found out about us. We need to scramble everyone, make sure that no one remembers. When you justify it like that, it adds stakes, it adds world building. And even though Osmus Fowler is ostensibly a fun- It's quite farce call.
00:51:56
Speaker
Yeah, it's not Terry Pratchett levels are far so cool, but it's like it's getting there. Yeah, that really kind of in a weird way like grounds it because it's like, okay, they, you know, they take this seriously. And like, there's a whole thing in place. So I can get behind the fact that yeah, I can buy humans don't believe they don't know they exist because like, they're not messing around.
00:52:14
Speaker
Yeah. Holly is not messing around, the character who is like the main police person. Holly Short. Yeah, Holly Short. Who's in the lep recon unit. And it's like silly, but also it's very serious when she's doing it. And then you've got, you know, mulch digums, like just pooing out all of the soil that he eats. And that's like funny.
00:52:32
Speaker
He's fine. They pull him out of jail, I think, to go and use him to do that. Yeah, because he likes to tunnel. Yeah, so he works very well, though, and kind of folds in all of our tropes. I can't believe I forgot about Artem as well, actually. Oh, yeah, because he's Dynasty as well, right? Yeah, he's Dynasty, and then they have the Leprechaun unit, and it's just below our world.
00:52:57
Speaker
Yeah. It's all of the tropes, another triple threat. We did it. See, they love it. We did it. Oh, that's great. And it's maybe the worst movie adaptation I've ever seen in my life. Yeah. Sad. Oh my God. We don't talk about it actually. Just delete this from the podcast, please. Yeah. Hold on. Let me just set a marker here. Delete.
00:53:16
Speaker
I don't know what else I've got to, oh I did want to mention, I don't know how you'd twist this, I'm sure there's some cool ones that I haven't thought of but I like how this is more of a portal fantasy I think but I like in Stranger Things how
Alternate Worlds and Modern Fantasy
00:53:30
Speaker
the other world is like a monster-filled hellscape as opposed to like just like a new place where there's like other civilizations and stuff going on.
00:53:40
Speaker
Yeah, that's true. That's fun. And it is that mirror of our own world. So it still adds to that sort of theme that they like to do. Yeah. It's literally like mirror image does such, isn't it? Just upside down. Yeah. Yeah.
00:53:54
Speaker
This is a cool genre. I mean, contemporary, like, I get why it's popular right now and why this is something that I think publishers are probably on the lookout if you're writing in fantasy. I think outside of romanticy, contemporary, like, modern fantasy is really, you know, doing really well right now.
00:54:11
Speaker
Yeah. You've probably got more of a shot at it being made into like a TV show or a film if you write it as well. For sure. Yeah. It's going to be cheaper to produce if the world already exists, like the base world. Yeah, that's pretty true. Yeah, if they just have to add like the fireball is coming out, the character's hands as opposed to building an entire... Well, actually that's more by your friend, Alexandra Bracken, Jamie.
00:54:38
Speaker
That's about Greek gods coming down soon. I assume it will go into production soon. That's cool. Very, very cool. Awesome. Anything else to add? I don't think so. Yeah, that's me. We did it. We nailed it. This is a fun genre. It's made me want to start writing it.
00:54:52
Speaker
It is really fun. This is like everything starts like this and then gets really dark and depressing. Yeah It's okay
00:55:11
Speaker
Thanks for putting up with our nonsense for another episode. To stay tuned to everything we're up to, you can follow the podcast on all socials at The Chosen Tropes. Follow Melissa at Melva, Naomi at Naomi G. Wright, and Jamie at Jamie X. Greenwood. Don't forget to check out Naomi and Melissa's books, as well as the Right and Wrong podcast. Thanks again, and we'll see you on the next trope.