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S5.E3 - How Much Control do Editors Really Have?
114 Plays10 days ago
It's time to chat about editorial, the relationship between editor and author and how much power editors have over an author's manuscript.
PSA: Kesia Lupo is discussed in this episode who was previously an editor with Chicken House, she then became a literary agent in the US and after recording this she has actually returned to editorial in the UK (and Naomi has a new agent for her adult writing).
- Naomi Gibson, author of Every Line of You, Game Over Girl, Man Muse Monster
- Melissa Welliver, author of The Undying Tower, My Love Life and the Apocalypse, Soulmates and Other Ways to Die, To the Death
- Jamie Greenwood, creator & host of The Write and Wrong Podcast
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Transcript
Introduction & Listener Engagement
00:00:00
Speaker
Hello, we would love to hear from you. If you have any stories or anecdotes about publishing, good or bad, we would love to hear about them and we'll talk about them. Or if you just have any questions or if you think it's anything we missed in in this episode or any of the previous episodes, reach out to us. You can find all of us on social media, on Instagram, or wherever it might be, or you can head it to the Right and Wrong podcast website. Yeah, all our DMs are open. Send us messages, let us know you know what what you've been up to in publishing. We'd love to talk about it and and hear about it.
00:00:29
Speaker
Shrek and Christian Grey are different characters. Wow. You heard it here first. Absolutely finished it. After every episode was like, oh my gosh, I'm so angry at these toxic characters. Like, shove more food in my mouth across the next episode. Because I loved it, but obviously I hate it. This is so much fun for it, though. Because this is it is my Malfoy-Himayla fan.
00:00:49
Speaker
Oh, yeah. She shouldn't have done that. I'm trying to make Neville happen. It's too wholesome.
Misconceptions About Editors
00:01:04
Speaker
We're going to talk about editors in a second, but first it's time for a one star review. Yay. We had some easy ones. You've been doing well. do We've had some easy ones. easy so i So we're going to do a really hard one now.
00:01:21
Speaker
ah This is more of a vibe. ah This is a no context review, but I thought it was funny. So, okay. Guess the book from the one-star review.
00:01:32
Speaker
Did I like it? No. Will I read the next one? Yes. That could be anything. Fourth wing. It could be anything. It's not fourth wing. That's how felt about fourth wing, actually. No shade because I am going to, I'm reading the next one. It's older than fourth wing.
00:01:51
Speaker
Oh, Lord the Rings. It's newer than Lord of the Rings. Is it fantasy? Yeah. It is fantasy. It's not Game of Thrones. Oh.
00:02:05
Speaker
Is it Wheel of Time? It's newer than Wheel of Time. Oh. It's a book both of you are very familiar with. Is it Brandy Sandow? Twilight. not Yes, this it's Twilight. Throwing titles out there to one land. I'm just going to go through finding Naomi's books. yeah It was Twilight, yeah. Yeah, that's a fair Twilight. Oh, I can, yeah. This entire series could be just one star reviews of Twilight.
00:02:36
Speaker
yeah There are so many. And how addicted people are. Shout out to my friend Sam who started listening to our podcast and we had made so many references to Twilight in earlier seasons. She ended up reading them all and she felt exactly the same. She's like, oh God, I'm reading Twilight so good, so bad. i love it. I've won the fourth book already. It was funny.
00:02:56
Speaker
It's terrible. I can't stop reading it. yeah Amazing. um So getting onto business, like I said, we are doing the, this is part of the misconceptions in publishing series. And this week we are talking about editorial and the role of editors and everything kind of surrounding that. so I've chatted with half a dozen editors, um, on the right and wrong podcast. Um, you guys obviously have firsthand experience in this multiple times. Uh, so we can dive into that, but I wanted to start off with what I think is one of the biggest misunderstandings, mostly from people outside of publishing, I hope, uh,
00:03:41
Speaker
that I've seen online and that's, and I feel like it's existed forever as well. And that's the idea that editors have total control of a manuscript. And by the time they're done with it, it's barely recognizable as like the author's work anymore. Have you guys seen this online?
00:04:00
Speaker
Yeah. I've seen it in inbox. I've seen people asking about it. Really? Yeah. Like it's one of the most popular, very popular question when I'm mentoring And I say, like ask me anything about publishing as well as your manuscript. and Quite often, there's a lot of anxiety around editors and picking editor. This is before sometimes I've even finished the book. They're already anxious about it. Yeah, yeah. So it's quite common.
00:04:23
Speaker
What do you say to these people then when they're like, oh, is it true? I'm like, it's basically not my book anymore once the editor gets it. Yeah, the problem is there's like a balance here, isn't there? because on the one hand, I do actually think in in the opposite way, editors don't get enough credit.
00:04:37
Speaker
Like quite often when these prizes are given out and even if the editor's mentioned in the prize, they don't get any of the cash portion of the prize. And editors do an incredible job and they work with you to improve your manuscript and make it more readable, more accessible to the most readers possible that are perfect for your book. So I think they don't get in enough credit. However,
00:04:58
Speaker
On the other side, ah has an editor ever picked up a book? if I ever heard from any friend that the editor changed a lot of the book beyond what they wanted and they were unhappy with the direction, the creative direction of the book? Yes, I have heard that horror story.
00:05:12
Speaker
It's incredibly rare, though, in my opinion. I think if the right person offers on your book, they want to work with you on your vision. So that's what I always tell my mentees. I'm like, please don't worry about that. Yeah, my God, like it's so far down the road. But also when you do get there,
00:05:28
Speaker
The correct editor will make themselves obvious to you and they will be a champion for your book. They're not there to ruin your book. They're like a really big fan of the book when you first talk to an editor and they're going, oh my gosh, and I love the scene where this, this and this. And you're thinking, i wrote that two years ago. i can't remember what you're talking about. But they you know they love it and they love this character and they're pronouncing the character names and you suddenly realize, huh, never really thought about how to pronounce that character name. I guess I'll go with that. And they are just a really big fan of your book. Like the correct editor yeah is not your enemy.
00:05:56
Speaker
No, they're your biggest fan. It's so nice.
Collaborative Editing Process
00:05:59
Speaker
Yeah. I've, um and I've spoken to hundreds of people in publishing. It is documented. You can check that. um I've never heard of a story like that. I mean, obviously a lot of people are not going to mention it to me, but yeah, i I'm yet to to hear. I would imagine it does happen, but the the rarity of it is such that in all of my time speaking with people on Right and Wrong podcast and kind of just knowing people around publishing, I've not ever heard of that happening o to yeah to any to any degree. and And I imagine there's probably a lot of nuance.
00:06:41
Speaker
i I mean, ah I don't know who you're talking about, but I would imagine there's some nuance in that in that kind of with what happened with that person. Cause the closest thing that I can compare this to as a reality in publishing is, um, cover art and design for outside of the book, yeah which yes, a lot of the time an author will have very little, if any control yeah with. Yeah.
00:07:08
Speaker
Yeah. Um, and yeah, I've, I've no authors who I've spoken to or I've heard of authors who were not happy with their cover. Um, in some ways the cover is such a marketing thing.
00:07:22
Speaker
Yeah. And obviously any stories I've heard where somebody has disagreed creatively with their editor, they're obviously telling me, or it's in like a group chat of just authors, like a safe space. Obviously I would never say who it was, any details at all, but it's certainly not just been once. It does happen.
00:07:40
Speaker
I will say when it happens, quite often, They question like maybe it wasn't the right partnership for me. You know, if you're faced with five or six offers, which is brilliant. I know authors that have picked not necessarily the highest offer at auction because they need them the second highest or whatever it may be. It's probably still a great amount of money. The editor had a much better what's called like the vision for your book because yeah Editors do talk to you before you sign. they don't just You don't just send your book out and then an editor goes, mine, and you have to go with them. And it's awful. And i think this is where the I think this is where the stress comes in. I just think i think people see editors as this gatekeeper and you have to do what they say, quote unquote. So they're worried that if the editor has an idea, And I mean, this still happens that people are a bit afraid to speak up and say, no, I don't like that idea. Or I mean, often I go when I've disagreed with something, a small thing that an editor said, we usually come up with a third way that's much better. yeah So if they don't like something and I quite like it and and they'll they'll suggest an alternative and I'll go, no, I don't like that either. Usually between us, we'll come up with a third way where we both go, oh, this is better than. either of our ideas which is the way you want it to be you want it to be collaborative like that's a good thing to be collaborative it's not you're releasing a book into the world it's not going to be yours anymore at some point so it's okay to be collaborative with an editor it's not scary well it shouldn't be scary no it should be exciting yeah I have a good example of this actually so um so before Christmas I got an offer
00:09:09
Speaker
um on my adult book and we had a call just to sort of um before she offered just I guess it's just sort of check that your vision for the book aligns like what you were saying um and she gave me so many good ideas she was like I think we could do this I think what if this character um did this you know what what if we set it here what if we really amped up the atmosphere things like that and I was like yes this is all so good this is great and she was like what we were saying she's she was basically my biggest super fan and she was like I love your book you know and and but what about this isn't this let's do this and I was like yes I love all of those things and and I basically went away and I did all those edits whilst we were waiting for the um contract and everything to come through and and but so by the time the contract was signed I gave her
00:09:55
Speaker
another draft based off that like sort of conversation and in that draft I had done something that we hadn't discussed on the call because like you know why would we we weren't a team at that point and then ah it was quite a major change and i basically bumped off like somebody and and when we when the contract was signed and we sat down together and we met and we had lunch together the one of the first things she said was you killed him I was like oh yeah I did um and so she i could tell that she was like really gutted that I'd done that um and she was like talk me through the decision why did you decide to do it and we talked about it and she was like okay and I could tell she was really unsure and then like she was like I'll go away and think about it and then I got like her editorial notes through for the next draft um I put to the redrafting properly and she basically said like look
00:10:48
Speaker
I love, I love this character. I think he should live, but if you really want to kill him off, we have to substantiate it. And like what you're saying is it's, it's not one way or it's not someone's way or someone else's way. It's like you work together to like exactly come up with the best solution. And that's, yeah, that's basically what I've just been going through. Um, so yeah. Yeah. yeah yeah You do end up with sometimes something you disagree with. Like that's happened to me and I've had really good editors I've never had a big argument with an editor. I've always agreed with their vision for the book, like you're saying. and There was one thing that when i was talking um to Hachette about to the death, and they asked me why I had included sign language in the book. um So i've ah it's got a lot of sign language in it.
00:11:32
Speaker
not necessarily BSL or ASL or anything specific because it's set in sort of a second ah world vaguely fantasy setting but I had a lot of sign language in there and they asked me you know how attached you to that like why why did you put that in and you know I just said to them well So I'm not deaf. I don't use sign language. um I don't have communication ah reasons to use sign language. However, I've worked in schools I've used, Makaton and Callums also. My partner has worked in schools, funnily enough, the same school actually years, years later. And also and he's hard of hearing. So we've been learning a little bit at home. and But it did make me ah take the plunge and finally do some official um sign language courses. and So I've been learning and I thought it was an interesting conversation because I could tell the nervousness was coming from a place of obviously making sure we have spaces for own voices and making sure that we're not taking up those spaces. So i i actually understood where it came from. the nervousness. So I wasn't necessarily, it wasn't like a red flag for me that they were nervous about that. I was quite passionate about it's one of my favorite languages um in terms of ah even in spoken languages, like sign language is one of my favorites. So and I just said to her, it was really important for me to include it because it's such an important thing throughout my life. It's come up and Now we're learning it. My partner's hard of hearing. So she said, yeah, absolutely. Then if you feel that passionately about it, then I'm not nervous about it, you know?
00:12:59
Speaker
Um, so we did keep it in. Yeah. That seems very close to home for you. So that makes sense. But that you you could see that they were apprehensive and and the the preconception that we were talking about would be that they would be like, no, you have to cut this.
00:13:13
Speaker
Yes, exactly. So they never said that. They were nervous about it. So they just asked me, they asked me, you know, where, you know, what is your experience with this language? And we're obviously going to get, they were very keen from the very first call, we'll get a sensitivity reader in to look at this. And they were so helpful because at the time I was still sort of learning and there was lots of stuff I'd missed. and that only a sensitivity reader could pick up.
00:13:35
Speaker
So they were really, really good, really um like bold with their suggestions. Again, another type of editing, really very good with what they were telling me. And I totally understood that I'd come at it from the wrong angle on those small sections. And it made it so much more realistic when I was reading through it recently for ah proof pages, especially now i'm that much further in my sort of sign language journey and understanding it. So yeah, it was fine. and It was a conversation,
Sensitivity Readers & Editorial Misconceptions
00:13:58
Speaker
don't get me wrong, but it was fine.
00:14:00
Speaker
Worked out fine because the vision was the same. Sorry, out of curiosity, did the sensitivity reader read the whole book or just certain passages? Do you know, I'm not 100% certain. They obviously send me like a marked up manuscript with comments. That's how they did it. Right. Okay. So so I'm not. And also ah the sensitivity reader was like anonymous. I don't know their name. Right. um I don't know if that's like an on purpose thing or if they wanted to remain anonymous. I understand there's obviously various reasons why you might not want to who you are or whether it was just literally because they were copying ah across her notes or his notes.
00:14:35
Speaker
and just like ah It's funny how you read and sometimes you think someone's like female brain or male brain. Yeah. ah Yeah, so I don't know, but they certainly read a lot of it because sign language is so it's everywhere in the book because they there are monsters everywhere and they're trying to signal to each other. And there is a character who is and deaf and for various reasons mute. So they do use it quite a lot. so I'm not sure actually how much they read, but they read a lot of it.
00:15:01
Speaker
right it You would have thought that they should, regard and it could be any issue, but you would have thought it would be important for instance a sensitivity reader to read the full thing to get all of the context.
00:15:13
Speaker
Because there could be contextual things which are not related to a specific passage, which like focuses on whatever the issue is. yeah And the yeah context outside of that could also be uncomfortable.
00:15:25
Speaker
Yeah. uncomfortable Yeah. And then, I mean, they did make notes sometimes that, so again, I'm not sure if the context just didn't come, it's quite an early version that they read. um So I'm not sure if the context didn't come across or whether they read the whole thing or not. I'm not quite sure how it works, but they did sometimes say, i have a character who is a real meathead. He's not very nice. I'm trying not to swear. and So he makes fun of other characters, including a character who is deaf and they did actually put in this is okay if this person is basically an asshole.
00:15:59
Speaker
like yeah This is fine if this person is an asshole but if they're not like this is obviously abelous language. I was very careful obviously it's a YA book i was careful with the um sort of language it's nothing it's not a word or anything that would be offensive but the way that they're referring to basically implying that they will be useless on the mission because of their disability. And of course they prove that they are very, they're great actually.
00:16:22
Speaker
and Almost like you not even in spite of, but just because of who they are, they're very good at the mission. So, you know, we did have those conversations as well. But again, when I was handed those notes, and the editor said, anything you disagree with flag it up.
00:16:35
Speaker
Let's talk about it let's have a conversation. Right. thought they were very good notes anyway. don't think there was anything I disagreed with, um but you know I'm sure it happens because obviously sensitivity reads, especially if you are ever writing outside your own experience or even just having characters, secondary character, because this is a secondary character.
00:16:55
Speaker
um that isn't necessarily something that you know the most about and you're not an expert. It can always be a little bit stingy and sensitive and you want to make sure you're doing a good job. And quite often you have missed stuff and you just have to hold your hands up and say, yeah, I miss that. Didn't even think, you know, that that was my privilege, sort of like blocking and clouding my view. um But it doesn't need to be an unpleasant experience.
00:17:17
Speaker
No. Yeah. It's definitely a conversation. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. And like, it's the same when you bring it back to it, it's this kind of the same thing that Naime is talking about. And you got, and this is with, you guys have been with the same editor and the same publishing house, but this is now with different editors, different publishing houses. Yeah. Something was flagged on the manuscript.
00:17:36
Speaker
And instead of them basically saying, yeah, we we don't like this. You're cut this. They flagged it and they said, okay, justify this, explain this decision, explain, you know, elaborate, tell us, tell us yeah tell us why why we should, this is fine. Like why you want to talk about this? Yeah, exactly.
00:17:52
Speaker
I had, um, uh, actually pretty auspicious. I was actually editing earlier this week, an episode for right and wrong podcast, which will be live by the time this goes up with, um, an author Tegan Phillips, but I also had her editor, um, Dan O'Brien from Hera books on the podcast at the same time. So we, we did a lot of chatting about that relationship. but one of the things Tegan said, and this is Tegan who, she submitted to Hera through their unagented direct channel, um Porto, ah ah so anyone could submit to that. And then the editors kind of flicked through. And um she said when it came to the editorial part, she will she she kind of believed the that kind of um misconception. um And she said she was surprised by how much of a discussion it was, how much of a back and forth editorial was, how much kind of
00:18:50
Speaker
um power I guess she had in it she was expecting to basically give her book to an editor and for them to be like right we'll handle it from here bye bye yeah that's literally what her impression was of the of the system so she she was she was sort of surprised and delighted to know that it was like you guys were talking about just a back and forth I think that's very common. and I've had a few and people email me sometimes like who are friends with my parents um and they say, oh, like oh your mum or your dad mentioned that you're an author. I've got this book here. It's ready to be published. And I don't think they realize actually you don't just hand your manuscript to an editor and they go away and design a cover and print it for you. There's actually a lot more to it than that. And yes the editorial steps is probably the largest chunk of the publication process.
00:19:39
Speaker
and putting in a bookshop and getting a cover and everything it's like so minimal it's it's editorial that is the main chunk of the the journey yeah I think it blows people's minds when you they find out how because you can edit I edit edited this book uh so the book I'm talking about the to the death book I edited it with my agent for like three four months we sent it out got bought yeah would say we started I think got my edit letter I want to say like last May or June And I've just signed off on proof edits. So it's not like I was editing every minute of every day during those 12 months. But I certainly had quite a lot of back and forth. You know, i'd I'd do about four to six weeks of edits. I'd send it back. I'd have about four to six weeks off. Then they'd send something back. So it's quite a lot that you do.
00:20:23
Speaker
Yeah. reckon and it was because you guys both published YA first and you're both publishing adult now. Is there a difference in editorial between do you feel a difference between the edit the young adult stuff versus the adult stuff?
00:20:39
Speaker
Mine is still technically crossover. So I'm still straddling into YA. So they're definitely still the same things about, um for instance, I think like we were talking about bad language, right? And I was saying I had a sensitivity reader who was checking everything and it's like, oh, if this is in context for this character. However, even within context with the character, I was careful and the sensitivity reader did helpfully pick out some areas where um language is still a little bit more censored. So you don't want you don't have to use a terrible term that has this terrible connotation that will possibly trigger somebody in order to show someone is awful.
00:21:14
Speaker
um So i would say that was similar. But I don't know about you, Naomi, if you've had any differences. Um, it's, it's, ah like it's hard to separate if it's because of why an adult or if it's because they're different editors and they both have sort of different ways of going about the process. Yeah. House rules and stuff. Cause it's different. Yeah. Um, I don't know. i i think, i think generally the process has been very similar in that, you know, you get these notes, you go away and you do them you send them back, maybe you get more notes. you know, it, it's the same sort of process. Um, I, I don't think there's actually much difference between adult and YA for me. i I mean, the books are very different, but the people who are working on them are doing the same things. So I don't, plus like I swore a lot in my YA and people had sex in my YA books. So I don't think it's very much different for me in that respect
00:22:12
Speaker
Yeah, that's true. I counted how many. A friend of mine read the first page of a YA in a bookshop the other day to see if they fancied it. And they took a picture of it because it said, um oh, can we swear on here? Is that fine? I've sweared a load, so please do. You feel better. Why not?
00:22:30
Speaker
so it said shit on the first page and she was like oh my god can you believe that this is a YA book i can't believe this and I just pressed ctrl f and went through a manuscript and I was like there are 53 shits given in my book have fun reading that but I did have to because it went out as crossover originally so adult I did have to cut back on the fucks oh yeah so this we're going off on a tangent here but this is what really annoys me about YA books because and I had someone message me and slide into my DMs and be like, hi, I'm ah you know part of a literacy trust and they're looking to buy a round of books for this book group. is your why Does your YA book have any swearing and any sex? And I was like so tempted to reply back going no to both because that shouldn't be a factor in whether kids are given books or not. and
00:23:23
Speaker
But was very honest and I said, yes, I think there are some shits and fucks and they have some heavy petting sessions like in Game Over Girl. And I was like, but it just, it shouldn't be the case because that stuff happens. But as well though, read so many YA horror books where people die grisly deaths. Oh yeah. There's like, I read one where someone was like, their nose was hemorrhaging and they were basically like dying and like all their blood was coming their nose and mouth. That's fine. Middle grade as well. But they can't say fuck. you know just it's just it's such a weird sort scale it's like as soon as you drop an f-bomb your book is tinged with badness but you can die in really horrible gruesome ways it just doesn't make that's the um movie rating system right if you can be a pg that's true as well do you get is it 12a where you get one f-bomb yeah but you can say shit as much as you like
00:24:18
Speaker
Yeah, it's like there's a sliding scale. But that is also, to be fair, conversation. so because mine had loads of F-bombs in there, um my editor, Katie Lawrence, was like, oh, listen, I probably need to probably need to cut these back. And I'm not going to give you an exact number. It's not like that. It's just it. would be good if that there were less of of these. I think there were a lot, think there were like over a hundred. So was like, okay, cool. So I went through. And in fact, actually in the end, because we'd done that, I kind of took a different route and decided just to put in one F-bomb exactly like that. I was like, I'm going to put one strategic F-bomb.
00:24:50
Speaker
yeah um And it's just after they're told that they're going live on television so they can't swear. That's when I put it in. That's quite funny. was like yeah And it was almost like a thing because I had to change so many. I was like, you know what? I'm just going to use it once and I'm going to choose carefully where I'm going to use it. So that was a bit more fun, like a fun way of me trying to get around it because obviously it is it is a little bit annoying, but like I see where they're coming from. And I wouldn't want someone to...
00:25:14
Speaker
um like not read or not stock the book because had like three f-bombs instead of one yeah as a writer though it's like our job to you know be creative with our words and get your theosaurus out and think about what kind of way to say things however some words just fit okay yeah yeah like an f-bomb sometimes it's just needed if you put anything else in the place where it should have been an f-bomb It just doesn't read right. Yeah.
00:25:42
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. ah Taking this tangent even further away from what we were talking about. Have you guys ever watched the um, i don't know if they still do it, but there was a podcast that Mary and Pippin from Lord of the Rings did. I did. I was thinking about that when you were saying before. the ring And they were like, oh, if you were to put, because it's a 12, there's no F bomb in Lord of the Rings. And then people wrote in saying the best places to put the F bomb. Some of them were so funny. Yeah.
00:26:09
Speaker
I love that. um What we talking about? Oh yeah, editorial. This is yeah tangentially related because you being checked by your editor for the number of swear words you put in your... Yeah, yeah, it's related. But it's never like... They've never... I mean, have they ever said to you guys, you have to cut all of them, you can't swear at all? it's always It sounds like it's always just been, we need to dial it back a bit.
00:26:36
Speaker
Yeah, no, that's never happened. i I've never, I've had had, I've been very lucky, baby, to have really, I say lucky, hopefully all editors are like this, but I've been quite lucky to have good editors. I've never, ever had anyone say, we have to get rid of this or we have to do that. It's always been a conversation. So no, there was nothing like that.
00:26:51
Speaker
I think this is relating to which publishing house you're with. So and Chicken House, I don't really think cared that much about that kind of thing. and I got away with a lot in my YA there because I think I've got quite an,
00:27:04
Speaker
well not a graphic sex scene because it's YA but I've got a sex scene in every line of view and Kessie has said they had a a table discussion about it and they decided to leave it because it was well written and I was like but I think if you're with another publishing house they might have a very different um yes take on it because it depending on what where they want to position themselves in the market so I know that Usborne for example are very like family friendly and they don't they they probably would not like sex scenes or um swearing or anything in their books because they want to position themselves at a certain place so I think it depends where you are which is surprising because you would have thought given chicken house leans so heavily in middle grade it's interesting isn't have that yeah it's very obviously see very different position from ya yeah
00:27:55
Speaker
You forced them to have a meeting about it, which must have been the hilarious and awkward meeting to in. don't think they had it specifically for that. I think it was just, know. It was on the agenda. Yeah. Maybe sexy.
00:28:09
Speaker
That's funny. m I wanted to ask, because this this interview was so interesting I did with with Tegan and Dan recently, um Did you guys, because you both had agents before you signed your first deal, did your agents basically brief you about how everything was
Agent's Role in Editorial Meetings
00:28:29
Speaker
going to be? So like your first meeting with an editor from a publishing house, did your agent kind of sit, you know, speak to you and say, so this is what's going to happen. It's going to be like, this going to be this. Or did you go in kind of blind?
00:28:42
Speaker
Oh, I went in blind, I think. But that makes Lucy sound really bad. I don't mean it. mean, she obviously told me. But she was there with you? Yeah, she was on the call. That was the other thing. So she was like, basically, we're going to go in. We're going to listen.
00:28:54
Speaker
Especially because if you have the conversation before you've accepted an offer, say, and obviously, even if you're really keen to accept the offer, there has to be a little bit of cat and mouse and like, oh, I don't know. I might go elsewhere still. So she always just says like, let's go and let's just hear what they have to say. And then we'll come out and then I'll have a chat. She always chats to me straight after.
00:29:14
Speaker
so she like stays on the Zoom call. She organizes a Zoom call or she like calls me after. yeah Okay. yeah So no, nothing before, but then we just kind of wait to see what they say and then talk about it. Yeah.
00:29:24
Speaker
was that same for you, Naomi? Yeah, basically, and when I first met, so we, we I went to London, I was very London, and we we met Cassia and Barry for lunch, me and Joe, and and I think it was more Cassia and Barry that sort of said, this is what's going to happen, and we'll do this, and we discussed deadlines, and then after the meeting, and Joe was like, are you okay with that deadline? Does that work for you? And I was like, yeah, yeah, I'll be fine, and I think So I don't, I don't know if it really came from, from my agent, from Joe. I think it more came from, from the publishing house, which is interesting. I've never really thought about that.
00:30:03
Speaker
okay. But, what i'm What I'm getting here is like, yeah, you guys go into that meeting and you have your agent with you. Like yeah you're in safe hands with them. They understand what's happening, what the business of that.
00:30:15
Speaker
It's funny in doing this interview where Tegan had gone in, doesn' didn't have an agent. So she's just there. um She gets ready. She gets the call from Hera.
00:30:30
Speaker
or she gets the email and saying, oh, one of our editor editors would like to speak with you about the manuscript. So she's suddenly like, oh my God, this is this is my chance. I've got to prepare prepare as much as I can. I've got to be ready to like, I've got to tell them everything about me and my writing and things like that. And like wanting to be an author and stuff. So she spends like a week, like writing down loads of notes for herself, like practicing, like getting ready to like just sell her brand as an author. Yeah. um Little does she know that Dan over at Hera has spent the last like multiple weeks, maybe even months putting together presentations and proposals to sell this book to the rest of her team. Yeah.
00:31:12
Speaker
Before she's even spoken to Tegan. So Dan's been working on this for like months already. And so they get to the call And Tegan is ready to go in and be like, this is what I'm about. This is what I want to do. this is um de I'd love to work with.
00:31:29
Speaker
She ends up saying nothing because the entire call is Dan basically saying how amazing the book is and basically begging her to let them publish it. And she was so surprised by that interaction.
00:31:41
Speaker
I mean, you're always surprised by that point because you've been kicked in the teeth so much usually by the time you've got there. And it sounds like Tegan, if they've not even got an agent. So they've had nobody really... in that corner, the cheerleader. I mean, obviously friends and family, I'm sure, but oh yeah, that must've been like shooting all the way to the top immediately. said she was just stunned. She didn't say anything in the court. And she's ah like, she's a talker. She likes to talk. And she just, just sat there and basically listened to Dan just tell it, just saying like, oh my God, I love the book so much. rich misses I love this, this, and this. Please, please let us publish this. I have to publish this book. Please let me do it. And she, it was just like such a
00:32:20
Speaker
It's so unexpected. And then the funny thing was her explaining that on the podcast. um And then I went back to Dan and I was like, is that kind of what you thought, where you thought Teagan? And Dan was like, well, this is the first I'm hearing about Teagan feeling like that or anything like that. She was like, i obviously I didn't have any clue because that was the first time I'd spoken to her.
00:32:41
Speaker
Yes, that's true as well. All the cat mouse stuff, the then you talk about it afterwards and it's like, oh really? You were nervous? yeah I wonder if it's different as well because Tegan doesn't have an agent. Yeah, I don't have anyone to prep And Dan's really nice and Dan absolutely had best interests at heart and was just interested in making a great book but like because Tegan didn't have an agent I wonder if there was something in that where Dan didn't feel like she needed to portray um the sort of business acumen that she would normally do if an agent was there because with an agent now there's suddenly an element of like well we you know we haven't made an offer yet I don't want to give too much away because it might affect the value of the offer
00:33:30
Speaker
Yeah, there must be loads of that. Like, it definitely feels like that when you're in a call. And obviously at that point, you've maybe still got the manuscript out with people, even if it's your only offer.
00:33:40
Speaker
And I've never been in an auction situation or anything like that. and You have the manuscript out with other people. You are thinking like... if I go in here and really hate their vision, like maybe I should yeah check on everyone else. But also you're usually thinking, Oh my God, thank God I've got an offer.
00:33:55
Speaker
yeah I'm so excited, but I have to be chill this is to be on the call. But also though, when when I was talking to Saeeda about my adult book, she was so lovely and she was so inspiring with these ideas that she had for the book. I didn't want anybody else. Yeah, definitely.
00:34:12
Speaker
and so and And so Cassia at the time, which she was like, well, we have to go out and just check no one else wants it. And I was like, really? Because she seems great. I know, yeah. I was exactly the same. You kind of want to be really excited on the spot, but you can't because I get it's a business and we kind of have to play a bit coy. yeah but it feels rude it does feel rude it's like okay you're lovely but we're just we're just gonna check nobody else feels the same yeah they're like we love your book it's the best book i've ever read i can't wait to edit it i'll be honored if you gave me this book to edit and you're like thank you for your candor
00:34:47
Speaker
like no don't hit them with the divergent line have to it's ya they'd love that they'd probably be like we've got her she gave us the divergent line She gave us the secret code. Don't tell her agent.
00:35:05
Speaker
But I guess that's why you have an agent. The agent is sort of the like, um I don't want to say emotionless, but like they're the focused on the business. Cassia is is is the correct thing to do business-wise is to be like, yeah, we're going to check because who knows, maybe there's another offer and you like that person even more.
00:35:25
Speaker
Yeah, exactly. I guess it's a weird position where if you meet...
Publishing Auctions & Editor Selection
00:35:30
Speaker
someone like that and you are like, oh my God, they love the book. I love them. We all love things together and this is going to be the great partnership. So you're excited and you're like, oh, do we really have to look for someone else? What if you then look for someone else?
00:35:43
Speaker
You get another offer. It's, let's say it's a substantially bigger offer that you don't connect with the editor on the same level. It's really tough now it's really difficult. Yeah.
00:35:54
Speaker
Yeah, that is really difficult because the situation I was mentioning earlier where people are in an auction take a lower offer, it's not like they're thinking, oh, this big guy offered me five million quid and this guy's offered me a thousand pounds, but I like his vision better. Like that's not what was happening. It was obviously just like, oh, they were slightly under the very high offer. So it's ah an almost as high an offer.
00:36:15
Speaker
And I'm going to go with that vision instead. Yeah, I would. I don't know. I've i said never been in that situation. No idea what I would do, because I suppose that's the issue with, them you know, hear all sorts of things about auctions, because obviously that's what triggers an auction is that two people want the thing. And so then they say, right, you've got, say, a week to come up with your best offer for the thing if you like it so much.
00:36:35
Speaker
And of course, suddenly the price goes up considering apparently it couldn't go up before, but now someone else is interested. Everyone's got FOMO and suddenly the price is triggered to go up and it's absolutely fine. But then other times you come back on the auction day and I've had people who've said, yeah, the person who originally offered has not up their offer.
00:36:51
Speaker
They've just come back in and said, this is the offer. it does happen. Yeah. Yeah. But i I think generally when it's just two, they call it a bidding war. And then when it's more than two, they call it an auction.
00:37:03
Speaker
um But most auctions, when there's when there's a chunk of, when there's like a sort of handful of a of publishers bidding, um they'll the first round you don't really even meet with the editors I believe ah you just do the first round say there's like five publishers bidding you do the first round which is just offers and you cut the bottom two and then the last three do a second round and then you meet those ones or however many the numbers are
00:37:37
Speaker
Interesting. You basically, they try you the agents will always want to cut the kind of lowest offers to just take that off the table. God, must be nice.
00:37:48
Speaker
Man, this is great.
00:37:53
Speaker
um Yeah, i've I've spoken about auctions a couple of times on on the podcast. It's ah a strange and kind of interesting thing. and And you're right, that's not the first time I've heard the The idea being that if you've cut the bottom offers, the ah the other offers are probably gonna be somewhat comparable and then you can go more with your heart and the connection between the author and the editor.
00:38:16
Speaker
Yes. And also in the first place, if you've got a good agent, and they have actually pitched, like at least sort of done a pitch run at the editor. They know the editor. They're not just sending a book out randomly to 100 people that they've never met and might not be interested and might be evil.
00:38:33
Speaker
And then suddenly five come in and you have no idea. Like that's very unusual. I know that Lucy pitches to all the editors. She doesn't just dry send stuff out. It's not like home calling. So you would also hope that no matter who is in the sort of selection, it's pretty good because they're like trusted by your agent and they have a good relationship with your agent usually because yeah that's the sort person they would send a manuscript to. So that's the other positive is if you're worried and you're in this, ah if you're worried about being in an auction situation, everyone's worst nightmare, it's probably fine because they've probably already been vetted by your agents.
00:39:06
Speaker
Yes. ah yeah I had, um, episodes not out yet, but at some point it's coming out. i can't remember what haven't got the schedule in front of me on the right wrong. I had Liv Maidment from Madeleine Milburn, uh, on the podcast. And she was saying, yeah, they, we were talking about the kind of the relationship with editors that agents have. And she was saying, you know, her and the team together or, or apart, they're often, you know, meeting, uh, editors,
00:39:35
Speaker
out for coffee or they're going to the publishing house and like chatting or sitting down and chatting with them and basically running through everything on their list and then also asking the editor what they're looking for and things like that. yeah And a lot of the time they have been speaking to an editor and have pitched them a bunch of their novels before they've even submitted to them. So the editor is already expecting yeah the novel.
00:39:59
Speaker
to come through and they've already sort of set them up and primed them to like, in fact, when I spoke to her, she just got back from New York where her and the team had been going to all the publishing houses in New York and speaking to all the editors there and just kind of telling them everything that's on their list, everything that their authors are working on and what they're looking for and things like that.
00:40:22
Speaker
I think that's a lot of what happens ah and like Bologna and the yeah LBF and stuff. They say, this is what I've got and then see who's interested. And then it's not a surprise when it lands in their inbox kind of thing. Exactly. And that is why the massive misconception about that, which I'm sure we'll talk about another time, is that things do not sell. over the desk that is wild but yes that part the process which i think we all laugh a bit about like oh so what they're doing then just having steins of beer and you know choose it's like well no actually they are it's quite an important part of the process because i think having that personal connection you've got pile stuff in your inbox they're not picking up stuff chronologically they're looking for things that they would like to read they get too many things to pick every single one up chronologically Well, I mean, I'm not an editor, but I would assume they're looking for stuff they want to read and the stuff they want to read will be that friendly agent who they got on really well with. They know they would probably click with the client and they love the idea of the book.
00:41:17
Speaker
Obviously. Why, why would they steer away from that? You know? Yeah. I would imagine editors, and I mean, obviously they need, that they'll they'll always be working on one if not more books and in the actual editing capacity of things. And a lot of editors are also involved in sort of the higher running of the publishing house itself. Right. but I would imagine editors don't get nearly as many submissions as agents do.
00:41:47
Speaker
No, that's so true. It must be gatekept as such. Like it must go down as you go further down the road. And they're getting submissions from agents, like you said, who probably they know or have a relationship with for the most part. So their vetting process can probably be pretty quick in terms of whether they're going to go on with something or not.
00:42:10
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. But then, like i was saying with with Dan, you know, she she was working on Tegan's book in-house to propose it to the rest of her team to get confirmation to be able to actually speak to Tegan and offer um a contract.
00:42:24
Speaker
But shes she was working on that for weeks in presumably like her own time. if either Tegan had said no, or if she hadn't managed to convince the rest of her team, that's just time that she's not getting back in her, you know, full-time job.
00:42:40
Speaker
Yeah. And that shows how much they love the manuscript. And like, bring it around to the first thing we said about, um is an editor going to take my book and ruin it? Why would they want to do that? They love your book. Like if I love The Hunger Games, and if someone said, okay, ah we're going to change reality, and you can just change the whole of The Hunger Games and make it completely different. Like, why would I do that? I love it as it is. I wouldn't do that. So why would somebody who's read your book and absolutely loves it want to change everything and quote unquote, make it worse? Like, they're not going to want to do that. It's just, it's counterintuitive.
00:43:13
Speaker
That's such a good point. Like they're buying it because they like what you've written. They don't want to change it. yes Yeah. I agree. How did you guys, and you guys have done this many times now, but how did you guys feel the first time with the with your first books, first time going through editorial when you first get the like structural edit back? Did your agents kind of prepare you for that or were they just like, so it's going to be edits and then you didn't really know what to expect?
00:43:46
Speaker
Personally, um i had done a really big edit with my agent before it went out on subs. So it wasn't like a shock for me. and so And also I had been going to these little evening writing classes for like three years and we always shared our work and stuff and got feedback.
00:44:07
Speaker
And so getting an editorial letter wasn't that much of a leap for me because Um, I had done a huge edit with Joe and she had sent me her own editorial letter. um Joe used to be an editor. zone She was an editor. Yeah. She was a sign. she's Interesting.
00:44:25
Speaker
So, um, it wasn't that surprising for me personally. Um, Hmm. Okay, you were used to it at that point. Yeah. Yeah. like What about you, Melissa?
00:44:35
Speaker
Well, this is what... So I have had two agents. First one, we didn't sell. um And with the first one, Lucy, my current agent, was her assistant.
00:44:47
Speaker
So I've been working with Lucy on edits and she was always very editorial. Like um she was called Tess, my first agent. and chi'll She's left agenting. And she said, um oh, you know, I just passed it over to like we have a sort of ah an assistant who's come into PFD and she's working across different departments and she wants to read the book. And she'd left me so many notes in the margins when we first started writing. This is 2017. First ever book I'd written and got to an agent.
00:45:15
Speaker
um so And then obviously I was with that agent a couple, two years and then moved over to Lucy. By the time I sold a book, I had been agented for four years.
00:45:26
Speaker
So wow I wasn't like necessarily, I was in a way you might think, oh yeah, so we've done loads of editing. We've been through several different manuscripts. We had died on submission several occasions, I think maybe three, maybe four projects.
00:45:40
Speaker
um So lots and lots of stuff had happened. We'd sold to a small press that press folded, like lots and lots of stuff happened in between. um But I was still surprised when I got the editing letter. And I think not in a bad way, because Lucy's very editorial and would send me editing letters.
00:45:54
Speaker
I think what got me was, and and I think this has changed a little bit with how things were versus how things are now. So I got my first contract in April 2021, but at that book didn't come out until 2023. That's Love Life.
00:46:07
Speaker
However, by 2021, we were sending, I remember Lucy would say things like, oh, it doesn't have to be perfect to send out. Editors like to see a bit of the bones of it and so they can help shape it. Whereas now I think I'm hearing a lot more.
00:46:20
Speaker
obviously agents, correct me if I'm wrong, hearing a lot more. They want it pretty perfect when it comes in house because they're so overworked and underpaid and they've got rid of people. There's a million different reasons why they want it pretty good shape, whereas it didn't used to have to be that way.
Evolving Editorial Expectations
00:46:33
Speaker
So when I got my first editorial letter, And it was um it was when Kezi Lupo, ah your agent, Naomi, was still working at Chicken House and she was my editor. And it was really in depth because she's an excellent editor. And so it did surprise me a bit, but also not in a way that like Lucy hadn't bothered preparing me. I think sometimes, and this happens a lot in publishing, things seem obvious and you don't necessarily know what they are. So they'll say like an acronym and you'll say, so I've said before, like, oh, are we going to do proofs of a book? And they've said, well, we're going to do advanced reader copies.
00:47:03
Speaker
And I'm like, they're not the same. Not the same thing? No? And then you move to a different and like ah publishing house and they have different rules on what they call things. um So sometimes and I think it's just more, she just assumed I would know what to expect maybe because we'd been through it And also it's something that she obviously goes through all the time. And Lucy's always copied in to those emails. Like it's always CC Lucy Irvine. So if I need to ask her any questions, she's already got the edits. And sometimes if I'm in a conversation about something else, she'll email me and say, oh, by the way, I had a look through like the latest version sent back. I think it's really good what you've done with X or Y. So she's keeping a hand in and if I have trouble, but she also kind of leaves me to it with the editor and we kind of have our own relationship. So yeah, it was kind of different, but also kind of the same because we've been doing, we're doing it for a long time.
00:47:50
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. ah Just to, in case anyone was listening is confused about who it performs what role, just to clarify, Cassia used to be an editor and edited both Naomi and Melissa's books at Chicken House. Cassia is no longer an editor. She's an agent. Naomi has two agents.
00:48:15
Speaker
Cassia represents Naomi's adult books and Joe at Skylark represents Naomi's YA books. yeah And Melissa's agent is called Lucy. Yeah, previously on Melissa and Naomi's life.
00:48:27
Speaker
Yes, exactly. Just wanted to clear that up in case anyone listening was like, I'm so confused because who's the editor and who's the agent? And I thought Jo was Niamh's agent. That happens so often. People move from editorial to agenting people move into the, oh my God, that happens all the time as well. So it does get confusing.
00:48:45
Speaker
I've gone who it was. i was being someone the other day who was um saying that an agent had left their agency to go into editorial, which I thought was a very, is a much more unusual yeah direction of doing that.
00:49:00
Speaker
Usually people are coming, moving from editorial into agenting. Yeah, i would say so. Yeah. Yeah, that's common. I think more um control, well, which we all want in publishing and is very tough, and control over your own destiny type stuff.
00:49:14
Speaker
Yeah. Obviously, if you're an agent, um there's more scope to the sorts of things you want to sell, you want to work on. You're not doing the same type of editorial stuff. You're getting a percentage. and Editors don't, well, it depends obviously um how high up they are, et cetera. But if ah especially a junior editor acquires a book and that book goes on to be a bestseller, they're not getting a percentage necessarily of the sales.
00:49:37
Speaker
That could change. It depends on contracts. They might end up getting a bonus. Who knows? But and' you know generally speaking, that's not they're not going to get a percentage of your agent. Well, your agent will get 15% of every book you sell.
00:49:50
Speaker
and Until the end of time. Until yeah and the end of time. Which is probably two years for the run of a book. now I'm joking. That's very pessimistic. Two years. Hopefully longer.
00:50:01
Speaker
We said this episode would be more uplifting, Manova. It's uplifting. I had to temper my happy tone. But i mean, yeah, as as an agent in the industry, it does mean, you know, most agents will build their list up to like, you know, 30 plus authors. right If you get one sort of big hit in there, the kind of book that's going to stay on shelves for decades, that's a that's just a passive income for you at a certain point.
00:50:31
Speaker
Yes. Which is amazing. both you and the author, so as business partners, it's nice little, yeah, payday. Yeah, which is why the relationship works because you're incentivized to work together. Exactly.
00:50:42
Speaker
Picking up on what you were saying about how And this is something that I've not heard about. you your I'm hearing this for the first time, um but it makes a lot of sense based on other things that i have heard about how you think editors want things to be more polished now than they used to yeah because they don't have the time. it used to be they They wanted it a bit looser so that they could do more with it, but that now they'd rather just get it turned around faster, which lines up with, I've had a ah more and more authors actually on the podcast who started off
00:51:20
Speaker
in the sort of self published area, the indie publishing, their novel, they get picked up at the last hurdle, like just before the book's about to come out by a trad publisher, they do like a once over edit. And it's like ah it's basically a copy edit. It's a punctuation. It's a grammar thing. And then they just ship the book as is at basically as and I think at Rosie Talbot, this happened to, i had, um,
00:51:49
Speaker
Travis Baldry, not really, his book did come out and then that then then he stopped indie publishing it and six months later the Trad version came out. But ah very recently I had JC Lin on and she ah she was TikTok. She had like a TikTok comedy series that she decided to make into ah into a book.
00:52:07
Speaker
um she was about to indie publish it and then a publisher came in and was like, no, we want to, we want to publish that. And she said that they literally did. I said, did you know, did they do much editing the book? Let me tell you, the book was 200,000 words long, but they did She was like, they did a copy edit. it And that's a debut, by the way.
00:52:26
Speaker
ah They did a copy, like just a quick copy edit just to do grammar, pick up on a little bit of continuity and things like that. Other than that, they were like, no, it's fine. and Ship it. I mean, she had worked with a editor, you know, yeah it had been edited it during her indie process. Yeah. But yeah, that was all that they did. And then they just packaged it, same cover that she had ready to go and everything.
00:52:49
Speaker
Yeah, you definitely hear a lot about those. And then you also wonder, because obviously a lot of the time they've already, they're doing it, they're doing proper indie publishing. So they've hired an editor yeah and lots of editors actually that are freelance will do both self and trad include, and most lots of cover artists will do both self and trad. It isn't necessarily, I think there's a misconception that um an editor in-house at a big five is good and an editor that does freelance self-publishing is bad. That's not true at all. Yeah.
00:53:16
Speaker
They do both. Same with marketers, publicity, people. Yeah, lots of people do cross, which you have to. It's a gig economy. It's a smart thing to do and it's a good thing to do.
00:53:27
Speaker
um So obviously, you know there's no reason to ah expect it not to be really well edited. um And then also, suppose, for those ones, time-wise, if they know that they have they found that book, let's say, on TikTok because they came across that viral video or somebody suggested following this person with 200,000 followers, they know that everyone's expecting the book at a certain time and they have a captive audience right there, then it's not worth the usual two-year push of traditional publishing where they're thinking, okay, we need two years to build up an audience that are going to pre-order this book. So that makes sense. They will go quicker.
TikTok & Indie Publishing Trends
00:54:04
Speaker
Yeah, i mean, and that I do a clip from every episode that comes out and put it on TikTok. And the clip with JC Lin is immediately the most watched ah TikTok on on the whole account.
00:54:16
Speaker
Right, exactly. Because she's built up that audience, which is great. Yeah. Yeah. But yeah, I mean, stuff like that obviously then puts pressure on editors who are doing it, what I guess would be the old fashioned way to be like, well, we can turn around this book really fast because we picked it up off an indie author.
00:54:36
Speaker
ah So it's like they there's probably pressure from above and other publishing houses to be like, well, we need to, you know, look how many books they're publishing, how quickly they're doing them. We need to be able to do that. So the faster we can get the editorial done, which like we mentioned at the top of this is the longest part of the whole process, the the yeah the user it is.
00:54:58
Speaker
it's It's so interesting watching the industry evolve to be when you think about the fact that like 20 years ago, agents were not nearly as editorial as they are now and now they're like suit like being an editor is part of being an agent basically yeah i think ah you do hear about ah um agents that aren't editorial quote unquote but i don't understand how that would even work right yeah that's what i always think like surely because people say oh yeah you know my agent isn't particularly editorial i'm like how
00:55:29
Speaker
How is that even possible? Surely you need wood from the trees. You need somebody to have a look at it. You need to clean up a bit for sending out. So but like five years ago when we were first querying or maybe a bit longer, like six or seven, um it wasn't that common you know and it was a real thing on an agent's profile they said yeah yeah yeah exactly and I queried a lot of people who were editorial because ah and in my letter I said I want you because you are editorial yes and it used to literally be a thing yeah exactly whereas now it's like everybody is you have to be it's just the industry's gone you don't even mention it anymore like yeah I have
00:56:06
Speaker
I have an agent on, I try and get an agent on every month on the Right and Wrong podcast. And it's not even mentioned. It's not discussed. It's like, I used to ask when I first started the podcast, are you an editorial agent? But I just stopped because because they all are.
00:56:18
Speaker
They have to be, it's part of the job now. Yeah. Yeah. And then that kind of offsets, which presumably takes a bit off the editor's plates. But now with, you know, like we were just talking about,
00:56:29
Speaker
that taking even more of it's just that it's just the roles are changing, which is interesting to watch and to see where we land. I still think that give it like five years time, the normal route to being published will be that you have to basically indie publish first. It wouldn't surprise me if that's where wherere where we're headed.
00:56:50
Speaker
Yeah. To your audience and then we'll pick you up. Yeah. Yeah. Because that's the number one thing they can't really predict or build organically, publishers, no matter how much money they have. And I'm sure editors would admit this, you know, it's if they could decide how many people are going to buy each book, it'd be easy, right?
00:57:07
Speaker
yeah They make even more money and it would be really easy to pick up things. But the reason things flop and sometimes things do well randomly, et cetera, is they don't know. Whereas when it's a built-in audience, they know at least a little bit which direction it's going to go.
00:57:20
Speaker
And even like in a different direction from that, even if there isn't a big audience for it, if you have gone through, if you've basically funded a professional quality novel on your own, so you've paid for the editor, you've paid for like all the rounds of that, you've sorted out the cover and stuff like that.
00:57:38
Speaker
you've basically fronted your, your debut novel and then a publisher can, or an agent, because agents also are now looking at a self, you know, they, they are looking at Wattpad, they're looking at like self-published authors and then saying, Oh, I'd love to represent you. And we can take something to a publisher because you've,
00:57:54
Speaker
you've demonstrated a a knowledge of the industry and then you've also demonstrated like how driven you are to do it. You've invested your own money and in your initial novel. Yeah. I guess you're taking a lot of boxes for like a prospect for a publisher, but yeah, I, I think more and more publishers are going to, I, I, I've interviewed a bunch of people who self published and now they're traditionally published.
00:58:17
Speaker
And I think it's becoming a far more common route into weirdly becoming a more common route into being traditionally published is indie publishing yourself. Yeah. Yeah, I agree. Although obviously with the massive caveat of, um, I know a lot of people get very stressed about paying their own editor and should I be, pet you don't have to pay anyone to look at your book before you are published or indeed if you don't want to before indie publishing. Um, but yeah, it's a really good point to point out, but if you have put your money where your mouth is, then it's an attractive prospect. Surely.
00:58:52
Speaker
i think Also, i don't know if everyone knows this, but like a lot of people, and this has been going, this was some advice that I heard like ah seven or eight years ago was that people have for a long time, I don't think people talk about it, but people get their books professionally edited to submit to agents.
00:59:14
Speaker
That's been a thing that people have done for a long time. Yeah. I did that. Yeah. Yeah. You see, and went with cornerstones and they gave me a report because I, but I only did it at a certain point where like I'd had, I think maybe like 35 rejections and I was like, what's, what's no one was giving any feedback because obviously I didn't have time to. And so that was at that point that was like, I'm going to engage a proper beta reading service and they paid an extortionate amount of money for it. and But actually it worked out well for me and I don't regret it, but.
00:59:44
Speaker
Yeah. I mean, I edit it books. Like, yeah, it's a reading service. That's, that's even different. Like I've spoken to people who have literally got a freelance editor to edit their manuscript before they send it to a agent so that they're effectively sending like what could be a final version manuscript to an agent.
01:00:04
Speaker
Yeah. So I guess beta reading service, it's cornerstones. They have editors and agents as part of their roster. So it goes to one of them over and they write an editorial letter. So it's it's the same sort of thing really, but yeah.
01:00:18
Speaker
Yeah, because obviously I'm not um a ah freelance editor for publishing houses or anything. and But I do have people come to me usually via mentoring um because I do feel like, because I do a lot with the competitions and things, I feel confident writing a developmental letter talking especially about opening pages, that
Authors' Control Over Editorial Changes
01:00:39
Speaker
kind of thing. I wouldn't feel confident. ah People have asked me before, do especially people who are indie publishing, do do line editing? Do you do copy editing? No, I do not.
01:00:46
Speaker
Because that is not my forte. There are literally qualifications you can take for that that I do not have. I do feel confident saying whether or not an agent or an editor would buy on a book and the things you could do to make that book sing even more. Yes, because I've done a lot of that in my day job, reading competition entries, you know, obviously selling books myself, etc.
01:01:06
Speaker
But no, I don't feel confident going any further because obviously it's a professional industry. Yeah. um That's about all the notes I had for misconceptions about editors and editorial. Is there anything that we missed that you guys wanted to to to mention before we wrap things up?
01:01:24
Speaker
um I have a ah top hits of questions I've been asked by people before. So one of them was, how much input um will I have into the font?
01:01:38
Speaker
The answer is none. Why would you want to? You don't need to. i promise I promise. Yeah, this is somebody who, you know what, you'll have 100% input if you decide to indie publish.
01:01:49
Speaker
And if that's for you, yeah go and go forth and choose yeah all the comic stands you would like. And that's fine. It's your book. and So that's one I've been asked before.
01:02:00
Speaker
What else? Oh, yes, I've been asked. um When you sell a book, do you we've talked about this a little bit, though? um Do you have to say yes to every suggestion? No, you do not. But also you do need to advocate for yourself. I think sometimes it's easy to just say you don't realize you said yes, because you're panicking so much. Um, they're actually really nice editors. Um, especially cause as Naomi said, they like are the biggest fan of your book and they really want to read your book. So, um, please don't worry about that. also think, um, if there's something that you're really adamant about and I've had authors on who have had, like, they've said like, yeah, there was, there was this one thing where they weren't sure it's about it, but I said, no, no, this is, I'm putting my foot down. Like this stays a hundred percent. yeah They will always let you do that. I would say probably. it iss true. Yeah. pick your battles if there's like a bunch of things yeah but that you in the end you you as far as i have heard you have final say yeah if you're adamant that something has to stay in they'll let you keep it in yes um and then the other thing on my list which comes up loads actually and in fact was even a conversation in one of my group chats uh for some um people who have publishing contracts ongoing coming up etc a title changes I was about to mention yeah editors will like to talk to you about title changes and people get very attached to a title. I think the main reason being is the thing you say all the time, isn't it If you're talking to friends and family, your writing group, whoever, and you're querying for years, you're saying the whole time the name of the book. and To the death was um Escape from Blood Island, because that's the name of the reality show in it. So I feel like I can easily say that. So it's still there, if you like. And in fact, on my call, that was the other thing that came up.
01:03:42
Speaker
and In fact, before the call, I think literally 24 hours after we submitted, they'd started reading and they said, Hachette said, would she be open to, they weren't hardcore about, would she be open to a title change?
01:03:54
Speaker
And they said why? They said, we think Escape from Blood Island may be positioning it as a very like starkly horror and we want it to cross over into a dystopian space. and So would she be open to a title change? And I said, yeah, I'd be open to having a conversation about it. And then they came up with a really good title to the death. And I've changed, I think the title of all my books, even The Undying Tower started off as The Eternals and then pesky marvel came along and made a terrible film i was so cross and so even that one's changed but it did stay with the title i secondarily chose for it but all the rest they've changed yeah my love life's and apocalypse was um the sleeping earth which was really ethereal and just did not fit and kezzy was liked that title It's a lovely title, but it does not scream rom-com funny apocalypse drama yeah yes through the desert. like It's like, oh, how beautiful. Soulmates of the Ways to Die was love and other ways to die, but they wanted the trope in the title. Close enough.
01:04:51
Speaker
Yeah. So it's pretty close, but they wanted the trope in the title. So yeah, that's all my title changes. But yes, going to say about title changes? Well, yeah. and any any I think that is actually something that you have less of a decision in, actually. Right.
01:05:07
Speaker
I think if they decide they want to publish it under something, um, they will do. Yeah. And, um, you do get input though. You do get input. so the reason my titles have changed is because, marketing,
01:05:22
Speaker
decided they wanted it to sit in a certain place in the bookshop on a certain shelf and they want it to look like it belongs on that bookshelf so every line of you was i henry and um when every line is so good though that's such a good title sorry so But when it sold to the US, the US were like, yeah, we're not calling it iHenry. That's way too sci-fi. and We want it to sound more like a thriller kind of thing. And I ah do understand now in hindsight what they were on about and the the way that they wanted to position into the market. I totally get it. And I think the UK were quite happy with iHenry, but they wanted to match whatever the US did. So it changed. But i I didn't have much of a say in the fact that they didn't want iHenry and I had to come up with something else. and Right.
01:06:12
Speaker
And they generated a list of titles themselves and were like, what about this, this and this? And they were all like, I'm sorry, if they hear this, it's fine. that They were all awful. And I was like, no, I'm not calling it that.
01:06:24
Speaker
One of them, I think, was like, hey, I love you. And I was like, I'm not doing that. No, I'm not doing that. So it was up to me. It's like, okay, so if it can't be I Henry, what would I be happy with? And what would they also accept? So I had to drum up a load of other titles and then every line of you was like a line from one of the things that my character says. And so that's why they went I love it when the lines in the title. know. I literally added a line to the death because that was the title Hachette came up with. And they said it to me in my initial meeting and they were like, by the way, here's the title and the whole team, of course, there was picture to you, which they have to as a business. They're and we've spoken to the team. okay if you if you hate it we can talk about it again but they really love it really behind it and it was to the death and i was like oh actually that's quite cool and i did a quick google and there wasn't like a million other books called to the death that did happen my love life in the apocalypse they did suggest a title that was already a book out for instance so wanted to check um so yeah i was absolutely fine with that but i realized that in the book they never say like it's a fight to the death they never say that exact phrase so i did add a line
01:07:26
Speaker
So that they say it in the book. I like that. Yeah. Retrofitting it. Yeah. I did retrofit it in. Yeah. That's cool. I think titles are a lot like the cover and the art, the design.
01:07:37
Speaker
It's, it gets taken over by marketing a bit. You can get some input and and people often get input in that cover, but it's like, send us a mood board, send us, you know, vibes. Um, Tegan Phillips, who I've mentioned, uh,
01:07:53
Speaker
hockey it's ice hockey romance and her are ri the the book is called melting for you very cutesy okay um the original title was a pucking baby yeah i like that one though on brand Yeah, that's a funny one.
01:08:16
Speaker
um And then we'll we'll wrap things off. ah New things that we've been doing. I started watching, um we started watching the final season of You.
01:08:28
Speaker
ah I've seen it. You've seen the final a season? Yeah. It came out a while ago, I guess. And they did, it's so rare nowadays that Netflix drop a whole season, just bang, outright, here you go, right? Yes.
01:08:40
Speaker
Yeah, everything's weekly now. Um, so I've just started that and then also, um obsessed with expedition 33 making it my entire personality now. It's so good. I get it.
01:08:54
Speaker
I get where everyone's saying game of the year. It's so good. How long have you finished it? No, I don't think I'm close. Um, how many hours I just got to act to but i don't know how many acts there are.
01:09:09
Speaker
but I'm many hours in. it's It's just great. 33 hours. and it not just That would be great. If it was 33 hours, they would have nailed it um no, don't know, but it's, it's brilliant. The storytelling is great.
01:09:25
Speaker
The characters are great. The voice work is great. It's just, it's just really cool. And I can't remember if i someone had bought the movie rights for it and I was like, yes, absolutely make a movie of this. Amazing. wonder if Dylan uses Charlie Cox in that'd be cool.
01:09:40
Speaker
Yes. Although that he's the voice of the character, but the character looks exactly like Rob Pattinson. I think so. Gustav. He looks so much like Rob Pattinson, but it sounds like Charlie Cox.
01:09:58
Speaker
I think he like Charlie. That's interesting. You think so? i I don't know. Having seen him in motion, I'm literally like, that's Rob Pattinson. That's interesting. wonder if he did the mocap though, or if someone else did the mocap.
01:10:11
Speaker
I don't know how they did the mocap, because Unreal 5 is like its own thing, all these like animations and stuff. so i don't know I don't know if it was done like The Last of Us, or if it was done like post, and they just were in a booth doing voice stuff. Yeah, interesting.
01:10:27
Speaker
I don't know. um I don't know. But what about you guys? Are you guys watching anything new, reading anything new? Yeah, I've become obsessed with fantasy life, which I've waited 13 years for. very, very excited. And it's just very, it's like the opposite, actually, of X-Fish 33. It's like, it's very open world. I feel like I will never finish it.
01:10:47
Speaker
Like, I feel like I'm like, I got it yesterday, day before yesterday at 4pm, and I've already built up like 20 hours in it. I've got any work, it's really bad. Wow. And it's so good. And I've literally done, I would say maybe 2% of the whole game.
01:11:03
Speaker
Like I've not even, I've not even touched the storyline for like 12 hours. It's just so good. um So I love that. I watched the last season of you. um The last line is a banger.
01:11:15
Speaker
okay I look forward to it. So good. It's so good. just got nine episodes to go. Remember what I said? We're catching up on Hamo's Tales so i can watch season six.
TV Shows & Entertainment Discussions
01:11:27
Speaker
Okay. Yeah. So we nearly caught up on season five. I don't think I ever watched season five. I can't remember. There was a huge gap. So I actually can't remember, but I do know that Taylor Swift has started dropping all of her Taylor's versions of her reputation songs, apparently into season six, which I've been waiting for for ages. So I'm looking forward to that. Spoilers. Did you finish Supernatural?
01:11:47
Speaker
ah of have we finished supernatural i'm sorry i'm not 90 do you know there's like a million episodes of that um so no we've not finished it but we are quite far through i think we're like har because i think that's what we noticed we're like oh my god yeah we're like halfway through how many more oh there's like there's like eight more seasons and odd i think i think we there's another 300 episodes or something insane so no we've not finished it but it's still good ah but also i am starting to think like i said it's because we're binging it How did they come up with so many ideas for episodes for this show? It's so long. um So no, but that's, I'm enjoying that.
01:12:20
Speaker
Isn't it the same show runner when he finished that, he, he does the boys now. Yes. Yeah. It's the same guy. Which is why they're both the boys. Lots crossover of cast. Lots of crossover of cast. Yeah. yeah um Yeah. Eric Kripke. And ah ah yeah. That's it. Yeah. Yeah. it's ah ah And you can see, you can, it's interesting to see. And I think it's a good thing for when people ask about voice, if you're a writer and you're asking about voice, the supernatural and the boys are completely different shows for completely different audiences in some ways, but also you can see the through line. You can see how they're siblings.
01:12:53
Speaker
like You can see the voice, the vibe and that's yeah a very good example of good voice, I think. yeah Naomi, what as our physical media queen, what are you consuming at the moment?
01:13:09
Speaker
Well, we have finished House of Dragons season two and we were looking around at what else is around. What did you think of the end of season two? Pretty underwhelming.
01:13:20
Speaker
Like it pissed me off. It was like, we paused it. There's only three minutes till the episode ends. Like we're not going to see anything here. It's building up to this giant battle. They had an excuse though. Apparently it was a budget thing. Yeah, apparently... don't care. They wanted to do the battle justice and HBO wouldn't give them the budget to do... This is what I read online. Another episode, yeah. So they were like, we either... This is the excuse they scrambled. They scrambled the fleet of excuses and this is what they came up with. They were like, we either do something bad at the end of the season or we leave it on another cliffhanger like we did at the end of season one and then we do the battle justice in the next season. In the next season. But the thing
01:14:03
Speaker
It's been two years already. They're only just filming season three. So maybe in two years. Oh, really? that a writer's strike thing? Yeah. Oh, maybe was because of the writer's strike, possibly. Oh, yeah. Actually, I heard that that is basically all made in the UK.
01:14:19
Speaker
oh really? So I think they managed to, and most of the actors are English, so that there's something to do with like SAG-AFRA and like different unions. And I think a lot of the English actors uh the people in the uk were like not part of those unions so they could keep working i don't know but if they've only just started filming gosh i know there's been major delay hasn't there it's a lot of cgi to add into those filming exactly it's probably gonna be like a lot of tennis balls on sticks they need to cover yeah yeah it's so funny next i think we're gonna move on to westworld because oh god have you not seen westworld no it's so good i was a big fan of the original movie so when they made the tv series i was like obsessed yule brenner i actually didn't realize how many famous people are in that i didn't realize oh yeah was like yeah that's so cool god he's amazing season one of westworld might be in my opinion the best single season of any show ever okay cool we're definitely buying season one is very good
01:15:21
Speaker
I watched season two and then I've never watched anything. They could have just done season one. Yeah, they could. Oh, really? You don't need to do the other seasons. Season two was okay. And then I've heard season, my friends have watched season three and four and they were like, this is a whole different show. This is like not Westworld. I've heard that. So I've heard that it goes downhill, but that's great that at least season one is really good. I heard it was decent, but like. I think season three and four are much more like Detroit become human than basketball. Yes, I was thinking that's exactly how would describe it. Yeah. the Season one is very good. And watch film.
01:15:53
Speaker
Yeah, I didn't know that's a film. The movie. The film's so different. It's so different though, the film. I love the movie. But there are Easter eggs if you're a big fan of movie like i was. Okay. I think I'll watch the series first. Yes. Do. Yeah. Yeah. Do.
01:16:08
Speaker
It's good. Watch season one and then decide if you want to watch the other seasons. Cause it works. and It works perfectly in isolation. Yeah. Yeah. Hmm. Yeah. That's the same advice i I say for The Matrix. If people haven't seen The Matrix, i'm like, just watch the first one and then decide if you want to watch the other one. Don't buy the box set now.
Conclusion & Social Media Wrap-Up
01:16:32
Speaker
Yeah. Okay. Awesome. Well, that wraps things up and we'll be back next week with another episode. Bye.
01:16:41
Speaker
Thanks for putting up with our nonsense for another episode. To stay tuned to everything we're up to, you can follow the podcast on all socials at The Chosen Tropes. Follow Melissa at Meliva, Naomi at Naomi G. Writes, and Jamie at Jamie X. Greenwood.
01:16:54
Speaker
Don't forget to check out Naomi and Melissa's books as well as the Right and Wrong podcast. Thanks again, and we'll see you on the next trope.