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S3.E6 - Paranormal Romance
68 Plays7 months ago
Some Harry Potter follow up at the start and then we jump into some familiar tropes in the fun genre fusion of paranormal romance!
- Naomi Gibson, author of Every Line of You, Game Over Girl
- Melissa Welliver, author of The Undying Tower, My Love Life and the Apocalypse, Soulmates and Other Ways to Die
- Jamie Greenwood, creator & host of the Write and Wrong Podcast
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Transcript
Exploring Toxic Characters and Fan Interpretations
00:00:00
Speaker
Do you reckon Christian Grey is different characters? Whoa! You had it here first. I'm so finished it. After every episode was like, oh my gosh, I'm so angry at these toxic characters. Like, she'll have more food in my mouth, press next episode. Because I loved it, but obviously I hate it. This is so much fun though, right? Because this is my Malfoy Hermione family. Yes! She shouldn't have done that. I'm trying to make Neville happen.
Paranormal Romance Discussion and Announcements
00:00:25
Speaker
It's too wholesome.
00:00:33
Speaker
I'll try and think of a book I've ever read ever.
00:00:39
Speaker
What are we doing this week? We're doing paranormal romance. Some announcements before we begin. Melissa's latest novel Soulmates and Other Ways to Die is out now in all usual places. We chatted about it on the Right and Wrong podcast so you can hear more over there. And speaking of the Right and Wrong podcast, one of my lovely Patreons, Amy, wrote us a message a few episodes ago.
Harry Potter Tropes and Character Portrayals
00:01:05
Speaker
We were talking about romantasy tropes and we
00:01:08
Speaker
went down a rabbit hole, which is very common for us, on Harry Potter, specifically on the relationships of Harry and Ginny and Ron and Hermione, and Amy very kindly sent me a message in defense of those relationships, because I think we didn't look too fondly upon them and their construction and things like that. Now, let me preface with
00:01:33
Speaker
She has recently reread all of the books with her daughter who was experiencing them for the first time. And after each book, they watched the film for that book. Oh, that's cool. Which is the correct order of operations. Me personally, I can't speak for you two, but I have not seen or opened one of those books for over a decade. I don't remember the last time I saw one of the original source HP movies either.
00:02:02
Speaker
So my frame of reference for remembering these things, I will defer to anything that Amy says happens in the books and the films because I trust that she knows more than I. So she says,
00:02:17
Speaker
Starting off, movie, Ron and Hermione don't make sense. On this, we agree. Yes. Apparently, during production, there was a consensus that Emma Watson was too pretty for the role, and it changed a lot of how Hermione's character fit in with the story. But in the books, both Ron and Hermione are described as like nerdy, dorky, and it's definitely implied that they are not so attractive. I mean, she's described as, Amy just mentions here,
00:02:45
Speaker
the buck teeth are like, there's a lot of emphasis on the buck teeth in book two. And then how dramatic in book four, the transformation she undergoes to become like pretty for the yule ball is like a very big deal. This all checks out to me and I totally get that Emma Watson became far too pretty for that role.
00:03:08
Speaker
Yeah, although I hate that, like, unfortunately, there's just lack of nuance, wasn't there? Especially in those earlier books. And obviously, you will talk about book four. And it's a very nice we've talked about this before the 90s trope of like, oh, she's so ugly. And now she's beautiful, because she's going to a ball. And also, you can't be smart and pretty. So what should you pay for the role? Probably not. Could they have done stuff if they were really intense or making her quote unquote, as ugly as possible? For some reason, I don't really know why that has to be here.
00:03:34
Speaker
Yeah, I guess. But I do understand Amy's logic if you take just the source material, no matter how much I may disagree with how that's presented. I understand where she's coming from, yeah. I agree. But the one thing that sticks out to me is that in the books, she got a date with Victor Crumb before she was pretty. Oh my God, that's so true. And he's like basically like David Beckham at the time, right? Yeah, basically. Yeah. So she obviously had something going for her. Yeah, that's actually a really good point. That's actually a really good point.
00:04:02
Speaker
Was he, was he supposed to be like really handsome or was he just, it was just because he was like an international quidditch bloke? He could have had anyone, right? That's the whole point. He wasn't. And like, you know, a lot of sports people aren't attractive, but they get like, yeah. That's a really good point. I like it. Um, that was, that was really just it for, for Ronan, not Ronan Hermione. Uh, yeah, Ronan Hermione. Yeah.
00:04:28
Speaker
the next bit which was in a bit more detail here and kind of touching on what we're just saying there is Ginny and Harry who
00:04:37
Speaker
I have very little memory of, but having just read the books and then watched the films, Amy says, Harry goes through the books, has girls swooning in corridors, trying to sneak love potions to him, which I would agree with Amy when she thinks that that implies that he is good looking and that it's not, whilst it would play a part, it's not entirely based on his fame. Whereas... And money.
00:05:06
Speaker
Well, sure. And money that he will not give a penny to the reason. Thank God he's getting those free broomsticks from his like distant relatives. And conversely, and this is something that I, it's been too long since I read the books. I don't think I even read the last two books. I think I stopped around four or five, but
00:05:35
Speaker
Ginny, I didn't realise this is on the Quidditch team. She's clearly cooler and more popular and probably more attractive than Ron because Amy says that in book four, it's a common topic that her having a dating life versus Ron not is like something that comes up every now and again.
00:05:56
Speaker
And by book four, she's also grown up. She's no longer intimidated by Harry Staters probably because he's just always around the house, which is also something that which would kind of bond them together. I hadn't realised that then talking about her dating life or her being on the Quidditch team, her basically being presented as a popular like athletic, cool person, it was something that I just, my memory of the movies, that doesn't exist.
00:06:22
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. So I think the problem is the onscreen chemistry in the movies is not there. But if you take the information from the books, like there's a whole thing about how she's the seventh child of a Weasley woman. And in the Weasley family and in the magical world, seven is a really powerful number.
00:06:40
Speaker
So it's implied she's going to be an incredibly powerful witch. For instance, she gets the Patronus charm really, really fast because she's really good. And obviously she's on the Quidditch team. She gets amazing grades, et cetera. So I think it's less weird that Harry would like her because he's always wanted this family and he marries in, he gets insta-family. Insta-league gets an insta-family, right? I think it's weirder that she would like Harry.
00:07:02
Speaker
Because he's just this dorky kid hanging around with her, like, big brother. I think it's weird that way around. Yeah, yeah. In the books, I do agree that the film, the problem was the two actors that they chose had no chemistry at all on screen. And it does make it a bit awkward, I think. It was very awkward.
00:07:18
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. Well, it's funny you've mentioned that again, because Amy said, as Melissa pointed out, Ginny is meant to be a very powerful witch, but again, that's kind of lost in the films. It is. And she comes across as just the little sister kind of character. And I think they just dedicate no time to that relationship at all. 100%. Yeah, 100%. And then they randomly shove it down your throat a bit. Yeah. It's random films.
00:07:44
Speaker
Yeah, exactly. And then at the end you're like, yeah, okay, I guess we didn't, we saw all that happening off screen, I guess is kind of the assumption that I have. They did try and make her desirable though, in the sense that you saw her kissing somebody in one of the pubs. Like Dean and stuff. Yeah. And I think that like was meant to make Harry jealous and like, but it was only like, but she definitely doesn't get enough screen time. No, I agree.
00:08:10
Speaker
It felt like they didn't really want to lean into being like a YA romance as much as the books do. Yeah. Cause it has that middle grade vibe the whole time, right? No matter how old they are. So it's a little bit tricky I think as well. Yeah, I think so. Yeah. It's like they do dark stuff.
00:08:26
Speaker
But then again, I think some of the stuff that happens, if it was YA, I feel like might get a bit spicy, not necessarily in that way, even like they'd be a bit more swearing. They'd be a bit more angry. They'd be a bit more. And I feel like they shy away from those topics a little bit, even when they're like 18.
00:08:43
Speaker
YA has become more adult though. Modern YA is different to what YA was like 12 years ago. It'll be interesting to see what they do with the TV show that they're making of it. I bet there'll be more moments like that. Yeah, probably. Can't wait for that.
00:08:58
Speaker
Um, Amy was saying it's like, you know, this relationship between Harry and Ginny is so lost because they give it no screen time, basically. But they could, that's something that I imagine if they wanted to show kind of a different angle, represent more of the story. That's something that seems like an obvious thing to put much more emphasis on in the TV show. And again, for the TV show, it'll be interesting to see who they cast as Hermione and how attractive she'll be.
00:09:22
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. Are they going to include the fan fiction? What about Manacles, everyone? Let's talk about... No, let's never talk about Manacles, actually.
00:09:33
Speaker
It's also hard because if you're casting them age appropriate, you have no idea, you know, what they'll actually look like, you know, grow into their looks or like they're, they're going to look the same or they're still good. Like, um, some, some actors, they cast young and then they, they stay looking young into like well into their twenties. Right. And it's like, it's not what you want for a certain role, you know, where some actors will look much older than they are. So you never know this is, but I think just to conclude that Amy's final bit was just.
00:10:02
Speaker
Yeah, in the books you really watch.
00:10:04
Speaker
much more Ginny and Harry's kind of feelings and their relationship develop bit by bit, especially over books three and four. And that makes, there's a point where they break up and it makes a lot more sense and it's a lot more impactful in the books while in the film, they do that and it makes it sort of trivial. And when you trivialize a relationship at that age, I think for kind of adults watching that or experiencing that, you kind of think, oh, it's just, they're just immature, you know, it's nothing. And it's, which is a shame. It's very true.
00:10:36
Speaker
I think valid points and I would defer. My memory of the books is long past, I would say. I would defer to her kind of references and points on this. So it'll be interesting to see if in the TV show we get more of these relationships and they are kind of further developed and they have more depth to them. Yeah, for sure. Yeah, for sure. Got to make it different somehow as well. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. We could entertain the same stuff. Yeah. What was the thing that we absolutely did not talk about in the movies?
00:10:56
Speaker
I agree with Amy on that.
00:11:05
Speaker
Yeah. Let's do all that. Yay. Yay. Peabes is here. Didn't they shoot Peabes for the first... That's what I've heard, yeah. Was it Rick Mail? Yeah, but then it's just 9 hours. I think it was Rick Mail. And it's like, this is not an unfamous actor. It must have... The easiest payday of his life, I guess. Throw a rock at the Harry Potter cast, though. Come on. You'll hit a famous actor. A famous British actor. Yeah, very fun.
00:11:36
Speaker
Amazing. Well, thank you so much, Amy, for sending that in. Always fun to hear some feedback on stuff that we've talked
Paranormal Romance Tropes and Popularity
00:11:42
Speaker
about. And it feels like we're on the kind of same wavelength here, but it's just that the movies decided to sideline these relationships, whereas the books gave them much more room to grow. Let's get back into the episode. So we're going to talk about paranormal romance. Let's start things off today with Naomi.
00:12:06
Speaker
Ooh, do I get to go first? Excellent. So no one can steal your money this week. I am totally prepared. So I picked the trope of a brooding love interest, which probably fits with romance generally. But I tried to think of some paranormal examples.
00:12:29
Speaker
I really like this trope actually. I love a complex male character. I think it has to be done well though. I don't like it when the man is just moody for no reason.
00:12:44
Speaker
You know, he can't just be an asshole. I think there has to be like real reasons why he's so brooding and mysterious. But I was trying to think about why this trope is so popular and I came to the conclusion and I'll reference Baldur's Gate 3 here because I'm obsessed with that game right now.
00:13:03
Speaker
And I think that generally, and I'm going to talk really broad strokes here, is that women love to fix men. And I think that is why a star in in Baldur's Gate is such a
00:13:19
Speaker
a popular character because he is really brooding with this troubled past and you can help him get over it and he thanks you for it at the end. I think that's why this trope is just so popular because you get this complex male who you can approach with this gentle female character and they can fix him and he thanks you for it
00:13:44
Speaker
And so, when I was diving into the trope, I was looking at what makes them all broody. And, you know, they're probably an anti hero of some kind, and but they're probably redeemable as well. So it might be like on the wrong side of the fence in some respects, but it's redeemable. And they might have a dark past or they're shouldering some heavy responsibility. And the idea is that you get this opposite gentle female character who
00:14:13
Speaker
helps them get over all. Excuse me.
00:14:18
Speaker
And one book that really came to mind was Midnight is the Darkest Hour by Ashley Winstead. And I read that a couple of months ago. And I loved it. Right. You've got this main character, Ruth, who's like the daughter of a southern preacher. And of course, she's drawn to the bad boy who's called Everett, who's known locally as the son of the devil. And he is really brooding and mysterious and he just disappears for lengths of time.
00:14:43
Speaker
and the two of them play off against each other really really nicely and that book just leans so hard into the tropes and playing with these characters and until it blurs a line of good and evil and it's like really really like an anti-hero kind of book. It's just really really nicely drawn into the trope but yeah generally I was thinking
00:15:07
Speaker
beauty and the beast kind of thing where this like young girl approaches this terrifying man and helps him get over it and he does change and he does thank her for rescuing him. He does literally change, that's true. And you get the same thing in Fifty Shades of Grey with him, Christian Grey being this really brooding mysterious man and he changes and he thanks her for it.
00:15:34
Speaker
And then you get Twilight with Edward and Bella. And, you know, she helps him get over all these hundreds of years, a hundred years, he was like an asshole or whatever. And she's like the only person he can talk to and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. But also you get a little bit of a subversion in Twilight where Bella and Jacob, because she becomes this brooding kind of character in the second book when Edward is taken away from her.
00:16:00
Speaker
and Jacob becomes this gentle soul trying to fix her. Yeah, that's true. Where you been, Loca? Exactly. That's very true. Such a joy. That was kind of my take on the trope. And also there's another subversion that I thought of was Katniss and Peter from The Hunger Games. I was thinking that. Yeah, she's like quite brooding and he's this sort of little gentle soul who helps her, even though he's going through shit as well.
00:16:25
Speaker
That's just the reverse, right? Yeah. The point of view character is the one that's broody. Yeah. Which I'm sure happens in other points, but I couldn't think of any. Is there a vampire thing where this doesn't exist? Angel as well in Buffy. Yeah, Angel. That's true. Vampire Diaries, every vampire is brooding.
00:16:54
Speaker
Yeah, I couldn't think of true blood, same thing. Yeah, paranormal romance so specifically lends itself to this, doesn't it? I agree, yeah. Yeah, because it's always, I always think paranormal romance is like an existential question of, it's pretty much always about immortality, right?
00:17:11
Speaker
That's a lot of paranormal moments to talk about, especially paranormal, where it might be a ghost or it might be a vampire. Someone who's hanging around and maybe say they've got to think about the rest of their life forever. And so therefore the love is more intense because they're thinking about not till death do we part, till never do we part. And then also you've obviously got somebody who's very grumpy because they've just been alive too long and they're so weary by life.
00:17:37
Speaker
And there's like a lot of that, I think, which I actually, I might make it as if I'm moaning. I actually think that works really well because how else would they be? It would be weird if they went like that. Yeah, for sure. You need a breathing vampire.
00:17:48
Speaker
I was thinking about this trope. My worry with this trope and you kind of touched on it is more the kind of secondhand impact it has because if your love interest is this kind of enigmatic person who doesn't say much, doesn't share much, to balance that out, as you say, you have to have the main character or the other character that's interacting with them has to basically demonstrate the opposite traits. Right.
00:18:13
Speaker
they would have to be open and accessible. Yeah. And I feel like if you're if you're going to write a character like this, like a total edgelord mystery vortex of a person, you want to go all out, right? You want to be like, I'm just going to lean so hard. It's going to be fun. I'm going to love it. But then you have to do the the opposite with your other character, because as extreme as you go with that character, then in the other direction, you have to have someone who's just like so bubbly and like nice and welcoming and like sunshiny.
00:18:43
Speaker
And I worry it forces, you're writing one character, but you're forced then to write the characteristics of another. Yeah, it probably wouldn't work if both of them were brooding, would it? They're just very depressing for cover.
00:18:59
Speaker
They would just never, you'd have to use, you'd have to jam another trope in there like forced proximity or something because it's like, they would never talk or spend time together. No, they wouldn't open up to each other, would they? Yeah. That's very true.
00:19:16
Speaker
if you do this trope, you're committing to writing to, you're not just committing to writing a brooding character, you're committing to writing a very like open and caring and gentle character as well, because you can't have one without the other really, especially in romance.
New Girl Trope in Media and its Variations
00:19:30
Speaker
Yeah, I agree. That's so true. Works. You know, I'm gonna jump in next because this kind of... Yeah, go for it.
00:19:37
Speaker
ties in nicely into my one. And the trip that I picked was, and I'm not sure if there's another name for this, because I couldn't really find a definitive thing on it, but it's clearly something that happens in a lot of especially paranormal romance. And that's the new girl in town kind of energy.
00:19:57
Speaker
where it's like someone who doesn't know anything about the paranormal side of things comes to a place and then whilst also learning about the place is also learning about these kind of supernatural elements so obviously Twilight's there because she moves in with her dad and then goes to the school and she's the new kid and then she's like oh who are they and
00:20:20
Speaker
you get some very smooth, seamless exposition to be like, oh, those are the Cullens. And then also Vampire Diaries is the same thing, like she moves to the town or city, wherever they are. And then it starts going on. She's already there, but he moves in. Oh, does he move in on that one? Yeah, yeah. Well, he's coming back, of course, but yeah. Okay, so that's more like... She's already there. She's a founding family.
00:20:48
Speaker
Okay, so that's more like True Blood then where Suki is already like a local Bill Compton moves in. Yes. But it still works I think in terms of, because it's diary format. So it works because you're getting both points of view in the books and in the first series. The guy is the new girl in town, the new gal about town. And then same, actually same author as Vampire Diaries, LJ Smith. I love LJ Smith.
00:21:14
Speaker
is the secret circle where she moves to like a small town and then finds out that she's like part of an old ancient lineage and she can be in the circle of witches. Yeah. And then the thing that ties in with this trope a lot is they'll do the kind of like
00:21:39
Speaker
all the guys are suddenly obsessed with the new girl in town or vice versa if it's a new guy in town. You can really play with that. Almost all of these have love triangles and this, that, the other in them. I don't know, those beautiful creatures as well.
00:21:59
Speaker
Um, same thing. And then I also thought Stranger Things kind of does this with Eleven. She's very young in season one, but is it in season two when the two of the boys start arguing over her? There's one of the seasons where it becomes like a source of conflict that two of them are arguing over.
00:22:23
Speaker
I think they're not necessarily both want to be with her as much as they both want to like use her in different ways because they're so young and stuff. So one of them quite fancies her, the other one's like, her powers are so powerful, we should use them for this. So I think it still sort of fits even though they're younger. Yeah. They are obsessed with her though, yeah. There's literally an entire government trying to hunt her down. Everyone is obsessed with 11.
00:22:45
Speaker
Yes, the new girl in town. But I don't hate it as a trope. I think it's quite, it lends itself to skipping a lot of hoops as a writer where you're, she kind of becomes your Watson character. You can, everyone can explain everything to her because she's not just
00:23:06
Speaker
especially in a paranormal setting. She's not just new to the town. So she doesn't know anyone, which makes sense for you introducing people or like places. She also doesn't know anything about the supernatural thing. And I think you kind of forget that it's like they're different things at some point. So it kind of, I think it helps in blending the world building because you're learning about
00:23:27
Speaker
the place and the people as well as the magic system and everything that comes with that or whatever. There's a subversion to this, but it's not paranormal. I know this is a paranormal romance thing, but I thought a fun subversion to this was the TV series, Revenge, where Emily Van Camp's character... Have you guys seen it? Yes. No. So the whole premise is that she comes back, she poses as the new girl in town,
00:23:56
Speaker
to the other characters, but we as the audience quickly learn, I think in like episode one, that she actually knows all of them. She has like deeply researched all of them. She used to live here as a child and she's basically come back to seek her revenge. Hence the title of the show. So it's like the audience is in on it, but to everyone else, she's the new girl in town. Not paranormal, but still a cool use of the joke. Yeah, definitely.
00:24:25
Speaker
Um, and I had some honorable mentions too, uh, not paranormal again, but, uh, this feels kind of like the, and then this obviously works outside of paranormal too. This is, um, pretty much the pitch for new girl. I think they basically said, let's do new girl in town and then make a sitcom out of it. And also, um, probably about 75% of Hallmark movies, uh, is usually
00:24:51
Speaker
Yeah, girl from the big city, usually coming back home but she's not been there for a long time. So she's kind of the new girl in town apart from obviously the lad that at school really fancied her and is now like owns the local hardware shop.
00:25:05
Speaker
It's going to help her out. There's probably a bakery involved. Or he or she is like, they work in the city and they're sent on a job because they have to get someone to sell something or something like that. Yeah, that's always land grabbers.
00:25:23
Speaker
Extremely handsome, can't really act very well, but we don't mind. That's not what we're here for. It's not the Oscars, guys. It's a fun trope because it's like fish out of water. It takes a lot of boxes for a writer. It does. It's a gift.
00:25:43
Speaker
But I couldn't find like a kind of very much within paranormal romance as well. It works really, really well. Yes. Um, but I couldn't find like a definitive name for anything like more specific than this. I know that there's a, there's like an adjacent trope, which is the naive newcomer, although that, that I think tends away from romance. So it's a little different. That would be more applicable to something like Steve Rogers in the Avengers.
Magic Systems in Christmas-Themed Media
00:26:09
Speaker
Yeah. Harry Potter when he first gets to Hogwarts.
00:26:12
Speaker
Yeah, right. Yeah. And they need sort of a magical guide. I think it works really well with Hallmark books. Most of those are, I would argue paranormal romance, but they often have ghosts in, they often have like the spirit of Christmas is a magic. Don't think you understand that in over 50 Hallmark films. So I do. This is my area of expertise, excuse you.
00:26:31
Speaker
Yeah, I think there is quite often a paranormal romance in those sorts of things. I have a favourite one about they go back to this house and she's trying to buy it for her development firm, but actually the house is full of ghosts that only appear between Christmas Day and New Year's Eve and she falls in love with one of the ghosts. And she's the new girl and it follows all of the tropes we've been talking about and it's still paranormal. Love it.
00:26:53
Speaker
There's always a spirit of Christmas as well. It's just like a random old character. That is like the magic. Like, what's the magic system, guys? It's Christmas. It's the magic system. Don't ask questions. Here's a candy cane. It can be turned into sprinkly fairy dust at the shortest notice. It's fine. We accept.
00:27:12
Speaker
Is it in love actually? Rowan Atkinson is like the spirit of Christmas or that's what I interpreted him to be. Yeah, yeah, I would think so. Because he's there like stopping bad things or trying to- And he seems to know what's happening, yeah, yeah. Yeah, he does. He's on an older scene. That scene when he's packaging the bag and he gives it up, 10 out of 10. What a scene. Yeah, Hallmark, nailing it every time. Yeah.
00:27:39
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, not too much to say on that. I don't think there's really too much danger with it unless you're doing it over and over and over again. You know, it can get a bit tired if you sing it so sequentially, but most of these things that I talked about, like Twilight, Vampire Diaries, Secret Circle, Beautiful Creatures, Stranger Things, they like, it's the impetus. It's like book one, it's like the start, and then you don't need to do it again. You know what I mean? It's like an introductory thing. It's not a trope that continues. It's not like,
00:28:10
Speaker
enemies to lovers or something where you know that you need across several books, you need to break them up to bring them back together to break them up to bring them back together. Yeah, that's very true. There's like enough going on that can keep them apart. I think they don't need to do that.
00:28:25
Speaker
Yeah, exactly. I just got reminded of, you were talking about the magic system as Christmas. Did you guys ever, this is probably something niche that got targeted to me because I'm a nerd, but there's like online somewhere, there's like a whole breakdown of this forum trying to figure out the specific magical powers of Santa Claus and they're doing it based off the Christmas song where they're like,
00:28:49
Speaker
He knows when you are sleeping. He knows when you're awake. And they're like, so from this we can deduce. But he has clairvoyance, but only at certain times. And this is why it works so well when you bring Father Christmas into horror. And that's one of my favorite genres is horror paranormal Father Christmas, where you find out his true abilities because he is much stronger than he shows. He's too powerful. He's OP. We need him enerved immediately.
00:29:18
Speaker
Did you ever, do you guys ever watch Rise of the Guardians? No. It was like, it was an animated movie and Jack Frost and the Easter Bunny and stuff. And it was, they were basically the Avengers and they were like a superhero team and they went in like four people. It's funny. It was a great, it was a great take on traditional like festive characters for some reason.
00:29:43
Speaker
I think Chris Pine voiced Jack Frost and he was a sort of anti-hero rebel with that of course. Anyway, back onto this. Melissa, get us back on track. What track did you pick?
Age Gap Romances in Paranormal Narratives
00:29:54
Speaker
I picked one. Okay. I'm quite happy with mine because it can literally only happen in paranormal romance, the one I've picked. So it's age gap romance, but I'm not talking about like a 10 year age gap. Obviously I'm talking about like a 200 year old character who's inexplicably is drawn to a 16 year old girl.
00:30:14
Speaker
When I'm describing it like this... Not pointing any fingers. Not pointing any fingers until however. And it is one that comes up, I think, a lot. Like, even in... It actually occurred to me the other day when I was doing a rewatch of Buffy, how much that happened. And I'm like, oh, she's in high school, like she's in law. Yeah, yeah. Like early on, because I think when I think of Buffy, I think of those middle seasons when she's left school. I forget that she's in high school for a lot of massive chunk of it. I was like, oh, no.
00:30:41
Speaker
Even then she's like 20. Yeah, because how old is Angel? How old's Angel? Oh, good question. I don't know. Angel quite young for a vampire. I thought he was quite young, but he looks like he's about 30. Yeah, he does. Well, that's the problem, isn't it? Because you kind of ignore how old they are just because they look younger. Apparently he's a 241 year old vampire with a human soul.
00:31:06
Speaker
Wow. The human soul isn't getting you some teenage girls, Angel. I'm telling you right now, absolutely not. But of course I love him. It doesn't matter. I don't care. I'm a hypocrite. But surely if he can't have a 16-year-old girl, who can he have? Because there's nobody age appropriate for him. He has to go for the 16-year-old clearly.
00:31:24
Speaker
yeah clearly there's no literally nobody else i know there's just there's just no other option he's just so drawn to her i mean at least though i will say with buffy i think the reason i care less is buffy is actually really cool yeah she has like abilities she can do like kung fu she's really really strong like she's not like she's not bella she's not like just over her own shoelaces outside her house and people are really obsessed with it do you know what i mean like
00:31:48
Speaker
She's not Bella. So I do kind of get it at least a little bit more. Plus she's the Slayer. So she knows vampires. Obviously from a writing point of view creates a really fun thing where you can say, well, obviously this is the Romeo and Juliet situation. She can't be with a vampire because her job is to kill them. So I get that. Like I actually don't mind it as much in Buffy because they do at least try.
00:32:06
Speaker
to mitigate it. And this is the 90s, so I'm quite surprised how far we're thinking they were trying to mitigate that, which obviously Stephanie Mayer was like, we don't need to mitigate this, it's fine. And in vampire diaries, yeah, no, it's fine. And in vampire diaries he's also, in vampire diaries he's 164, 162? Again, he's drawn to somebody because she looks a bit like his ex-girlfriend. Oh, that's weird. Yeah, it's weird.
00:32:33
Speaker
It is weird they're both drawn to her for the reason. And then they're like, oh, she's kind. It's fine. She's kind. And it's like, no. But I do think, I do think in teen fiction, the reason we're drawn to this is because, I'm really sorry, Jamie, I'm about to disparage the male. Is that when you're 16 and your choice, as Naomi was saying, that his hands were tied, when you're a 16 year old girl and your hands are tied, your choices are the other boys in your high school. They're horrific.
00:33:04
Speaker
So I can understand why they're like, I wish I had somebody who was actually not like a road man and could actually look after me and not be awful all the time. And I get that like obviously an older man, it's a fantasy, it's not real. Like I get it. And obviously like hundreds of years old, completely different. I also think they just love ramping up the trauma with that kind of stuff because they're nearly always, there's nearly always in a TV series or a book series, they were in some war.
00:33:23
Speaker
20-year-old boy is not on the same mental level a lot of the time.
00:33:31
Speaker
They're always like, we were part of it somewhat. And I'm thinking, why? You were a vampire at the time. Why did you participate in this war? That was just stupid. It was just hidden. Like, why were you even participating in this stupid human war? You would win anyway, because nothing can kill you. Well, apart from like, obviously, vampires stay through the chest, but they're not using those. They're using bullets, like in World War II.
00:33:52
Speaker
You're good to go across no man's land. It's just always some weird thing or they got turned in the war. That's like a very common one. So I think it does ramp up the trauma and I can understand why people do it. And I'm a hypocrite. Like I love it. Like I'm fine with it. Yeah, I love it. But I can see why.
00:34:09
Speaker
It's damaging. So I was trying to think of one where at least the person is like an adult who's going out with the really old vampire. And the one that is my favorite is from the BBC series Being Human, Annie and Mitchell. So Annie's a ghost. So it's a ghost, a vampire, and a werewolf live together in a house if someone's not seen it. And it's very funny and like very charming. Interesting question. Oh God, my series going off. Very excited about it.
00:34:37
Speaker
about my obsession with being human. And yeah, basically it's the vampire goes out with the ghost. So it feels less icky. They're both paranormal entities. They both have the immortality question. She is an adult. She's killed by
00:34:53
Speaker
I mean, it's a bit of a spoiler, but also it's in season one and it was a very old show. She's killed by like an abusive partner and she can't remember how she was killed and he's like helping her and he's a breeding vampire, Mitchell. And he, I think he died in World War One. So he's like one of the ones that like, oh, he was in a fight and obviously, and it's Aiden Turner as well. So obviously you're like, I don't care. All the rules go out the window. It's Aiden Turner, like do everyone. And I thought that was a good one because at least
00:35:19
Speaker
He is older, but he's not hundreds and hundreds of years older. And also she is also a paranormal entity who's looking at like a forever type thing. He's not asking her to change for him. There's none of that stuff going on, which happens a lot with the vampire ones. Of course, you're asking a 16 year old girl, do you want to do this forever? Don't do anything forever when I'm 16. Are you joking? She really wants to become a vampire for a long time. Yeah. And which one?
00:35:47
Speaker
She's like immediately on board. She's like, me? Death? Oh, it's really painful and it's horrific and not a lot of people live through it. Sign me up. Please Bella, please, please stop this. Please at least think for one second with something like your brain as opposed to another part of your body. Please Bella. Again, he's really good looking, but nobody's this good looking. So yeah, it does bother me, but I kind of don't mind it because I'm a hypocrite.
00:36:15
Speaker
Didn't Stephenie Mayer try and wasn't there, there's like a justification somewhere for why they still go to school and he's, was there like a mental where he doesn't like age emotionally or something? I mean, the problem is because he's already 17, I do have an, so they obviously they talk about in like interview for a vampire, they talk about the fact that when they convert, gosh, I've forgotten her name instead, I don't have my head. Cordelia Cassandra.
00:36:42
Speaker
Yes, oh my gosh, that's terrible, isn't it? But when they convert her, and she's obviously only supposed to be like, what, maybe 10, 12 or something, then they say, like, she's going to keep the mental age of, and it all starts to get really frustrated. And so they do kind of explain it there. The problem with the 17-year-old boy who, it was during the Spanish influenza that Edward gets turned. So, like, he was already quite young, but then he keeps saying about how he was really excited to start courting a girl. Well, of course, he'd have that mentality when he was growing up,
00:37:12
Speaker
And so I'm not sure if it really counts the same as a 17 year old boy now. So I don't think so. I think he's still, he's definitely very much drawn to be. He's much older than he looks like in his mind. 100% he is drawn to be that old. The only reason they say that they start school so young is the younger we start somewhere, the longer we can stay.
00:37:31
Speaker
It's like the one line they throw in. Does it, does it Jamie? Does it make sense? Think about it. It makes more sense than, look, the justification that it's like, oh, they're bit in age 17 and then they retain that mental age.
00:37:47
Speaker
I'm like, okay, but he still has 200 years of lived experience. Exactly. Yeah, it doesn't work. That doesn't make sense. It does, if talking about an interview for a vampire, that does make sense. And they do cover it, to be fair, in Twilight, where they talk about it's basically illegal to transform children into vampires. I mean, they give the example of if they're a toddler, they can't control their bloodlust, etc. But also, yeah, they say that essentially they'll keep that sort of childlike mindset, and that's why they can't
00:38:13
Speaker
Although I don't think they give an actual age, because I was thinking this, they're like, you can't convert children. I'm like, well, Edward was 17. Yeah, so what's a child? What's the age? So true. An age of consent.
00:38:28
Speaker
At some point, I'm not a biologist, but I would imagine that the majority of your faculties are fully developed by a certain age. Your experience is going to be way more important than your actual physical age.
00:38:46
Speaker
Yes, that's what I'd like. A WHO apparently say it's 25. Look this up when writing Undying Tower to see what age that they would stop aging. Yeah, they say you're fully grown at 25 and then after that deterioration starts. So like that's when you have fully full brain, etc. So yeah, they say 25.
00:39:04
Speaker
However, as you say, like learned experience, it's hard because obviously none of us are vampires and we can't actually know what it would be like to be frozen in time and then have like 200 years of experience. But in the vampire diaries, they do a lot more. So there's not really like a vampire council or any vampire laws like there are in other things like there are in Buffy and there are in Twilight. Instead, they just get turned by, I think, so Stefan's supposed to be 21 and I think Damon's like, sorry, Stefan's supposed to be 17 and I think Damon's 21.
00:39:33
Speaker
and they fall for the same girl and this girl turns both of them so it's a little bit like I don't know like so I guess I guess Damon's 21 so at least there's that but he also likes Elena who is 16 so yay okay that's problematic
00:39:52
Speaker
wouldn't they just get so bored? Like isn't, going back to Twilight, isn't Edward supposed to have like read so much literature and like he's supposed to be like a real renaissance man? Wouldn't he be so bored having a conversation with Bella who has done nothing? This is half the problem, isn't it? But the point is that he can read everybody else's mind except hers.
00:40:13
Speaker
So that's what he loves. What draws him to her is that she makes him think he's broken. So he's like, definitely. I mean, they don't sleep. So he makes a big point about how all his family, all night, all they do is have sex. They all just have sex all night. It's very loud. It's very obnoxious.
Immortality and Relationship Dynamics
00:40:32
Speaker
So all I do is read and learn the piano. And Bella's like, that's hot. He's educated, you know? He's educated. He is an educated boy.
00:40:40
Speaker
Which is like, I get her attraction, but what's his like, what does she offer? Yeah. I guess she's not from Forks. That also is helpful. I don't know. I'm trying really hard here. I'm trying really hard.
00:40:55
Speaker
Her clumsiness is adorable. He kind of hates that though, right? He does hate that. Let's get back onto the age gap thing. So I think for me, if there's two characters which are both either ageless, immortal, or just are very old, like we're talking like past the hundred year mark.
00:41:20
Speaker
The idea of the age gap kind of like blurs a lot to me. It's like, what would you guys, would it be an issue for you guys if let's say one character was 200 years old and they were with a character that was 500 years old? No, that's not a problem. No, I don't think that's a problem. No. I think at 200 you would have gone through enough. Yeah, exactly. Even though like on paper that's crazy.
00:41:45
Speaker
Yes. It depends how young the youngest person is. Like if you have an age gap and somebody say 15 and 25, that's really creepy. But if somebody is 35 and 45, that is not creepy. And it's because the 15-year-old has no life experience compared to the 25-year-old and also their underage, it makes like a huge difference. And obviously that's part of the problem we're talking about, some of these girls are underage. And physical development. Yes. Because like there's obviously at 15, you are not
00:42:15
Speaker
probably not fully grown. So it's kind of weird for her. Yeah, it's weird. Whereas I think 200 and 500, it's totally different. However old the youngest person is, you can start to correct it. What if you look 15 and you're 200 years old? Oh God, it's so gross. I think about these things.
00:42:37
Speaker
Do we have to think about these things? There's a character. Oh, it isn't one of the, one of the Eternals. Have you guys watched that movie? Yeah. I didn't love it. It wasn't anyone's favorite. Let's be honest. But one of those characters is, um, eternal, obviously immortal, but she, her, her like body is, is like a 14 year old or something. Yes. That's true.
00:43:03
Speaker
So she has to, and all her friends are more so she has to kind of watch her friends be able to date age appropriately and buy drinks, I think is a sticking point in the movie. That's Cordelia's problem in Interview the Vampire because she's a child. She's like 12, but she's a woman inside. It's interesting. It's interesting and horrible.
00:43:27
Speaker
Yeah, it's kind of horrifying. I don't know if I would have the stomach to tackle that myself as a writer, because it is grim. Like, even talking about it, I'm like, oh, I don't know. It's horrible. And it is awful. But it is interesting to assess when thinking about immortality. Again, it's like, come back to what I was saying about Naomi's trope, like, I think all of these things are when it's paranormal romance.
00:43:49
Speaker
There's a thing that we all say, isn't it? Like, till death do we part, like, we'll be together forever, blah, blah, blah. But then obviously in paranormal romances, we're talking about actual forever. And does that make a difference? And you're kind of exploring those themes. But yeah, I don't know if I could explore that particular one. You can get really dark with it. Yeah. I'd be really curious about reading a book where like a 30 year old became a vampire, you know.
00:44:14
Speaker
Just chilling. Well, yeah, just like, it would be so different, wouldn't it? Anxious Millennial becomes a vampire if anxious forever, yeah. No, but like, because 30 is quite a good age, I think, to frozen forever. You know, you wouldn't have to go to school like you would if you were 60. True. That's very true.
00:44:34
Speaker
What we do in the shadows, they're all kind of that age. I mean, it's incredibly stupid. I think there are a few, like, obviously in Twilight, to be not fair, most of the vampires, this is the problem I have with it, though. They act as if it's completely fine that Edward, or whoever it may be, Vampire Diaries, whichever show you want to pick, because a lot of them do this, as we've discussed.
00:44:56
Speaker
they act like it's totally fine that they were 17 and turned like, yeah, that's completely normal. Yet, usually, they're one of the only ones they know, that with that age, like even within Edwards, quote unquote siblings, they're all older because they were like Confederate soldier, let's not talk about that. And then also like sectioned and one of them was getting married. They were probably 20, like it rose at least supposed to be about 20. I'm not sure. I'm sure it says specifically in the book, haven't read the book for many years, but they're not children. And obviously,
00:45:24
Speaker
Edward 17, so I guess he's not quite a child for the time period he was turned, but they act as if it's completely normal. And then you meet all the other vampires, like there's books where you meet loads and loads of the other vampires, and they're all about 30. Yeah.
00:45:41
Speaker
Yeah, Carlisle's like a grown up and I think he was already a trained doctor. Yeah, he's quite old so I don't know if he was already a trained doctor because he used to hang out with the Volturi. Like Michael Sheen's in that movie. Yeah. He's having the best time in that movie. He's having the best time in that movie. Yeah, no he is. Like it's amazing. But he's not 17. No. He's not.
00:45:59
Speaker
So I don't know if it's normal, but it's not. It's funny how age would essentially be quite meaningless in that universe, but the characters are very clearly, the actors playing them are aged in a sort of hierarchical way. So like Carlyle is the oldest in the family. All the children are like in quotes younger than him, like the people in charge. Actually, some of the people in charge are really young.
Vampire Narratives: Social Roles and Challenges
00:46:23
Speaker
Yes.
00:46:25
Speaker
Yes, and they're like building up that sort of, do they call them covens? I think it's a coven. I think it's a coven, yeah. Yeah, in Twilight. I think it's covens witches. Yeah. Yeah, it is, but I'm sure they call it coven into it, maybe. I think they do. I think it's time to be corrected, but I think the other problem with-
00:46:41
Speaker
She's supposed to be quite young, yeah. But obviously not children, because that's the rule they came up with. But I think the major problem with vampires specifically is they can do everything humans can do, and this is made very clear to us quite a lot. They're usually really, really huge sexual appetite, they eat loads of food, they drink,
00:47:02
Speaker
they party, they can touch people, blah, blah, blah. Whereas I think when it's a paranormal romance with a ghost and a few of those I've read, it's slightly different experience because they are yearning to be able to do everything that the non-ghost character can do. And also it means there's less chance for those toxic tropes to come in because they can't touch you, they can't do anything.
00:47:22
Speaker
even if they want to. There was the mediator series by Meg Cabot that I read when I was younger that I loved, and she's in love with her. It's a ghost, and I think he was a cowboy, so he's like 100 years old or so. And they're trying to get him to not be a ghost anymore, and see if there's any magic where they can do that, and she can communicate with the dead. And I just think it's slightly different in terms of if there's a young girl character being taken advantage of, if they're a ghost. Maybe that was me being weirdly hypocritical about it, but vampire, they're basically humans, but super strong.
00:47:52
Speaker
can't really kill the very easily, can kind of persuade you to do what they want sometimes with actual powers and it's like a huge plus they're a lot older than you and have a lot more experience. Vampires can't eat though right? I mean some of them can.
00:48:05
Speaker
Oh my God, honestly. Siri. Siri, be quiet. He's trying to answer the questions. Yeah, I don't know. I mean, it's certainly in vampire diaries they can. And in Twilight, she says, do you eat? And he's like, I can or something. So I think they can, but they choose not to. In vampire diaries, they eat and drink to curb the bloodlust. So they absolutely have bodily functions to put it that way.
00:48:33
Speaker
Because sometimes they're sick when they eat human food. Yeah, that can be a trope. So I guess that's the only thing really, but a lot of the time, because they want them to blend in with humans and that's part of the fun of them. You know what's something that I just don't understand in Twilight? Why don't they just go to college? Because then it wouldn't be YA. Wouldn't they fit in so much better? They're all in their mid-20s.
00:49:02
Speaker
apart from hitting. Yeah. Because it's like when they have them at the high school and they're all like on that one table, it's like no one else asking why there's a lot of very attractive mid-20 people here. Everyone else looks so high school, don't they? They do. It's brilliant.
00:49:20
Speaker
I'm like, just go to college, just go to university. It is very weird. Or just live your life. Like why would you go to school? Do what you want. Yeah, kill people getting away. Do whatever you want. You can like run across a continent in a night. Like what are you doing here? Go traveling. Stop being weird. Yeah, it doesn't make any sense.
00:49:38
Speaker
Stop praying. Well, actually it does. If we think about praying on teenage girls, where are they? They're all at high school. Oh, God. There you go. We solved it. We solved the mystery. Case solved. Okay. Well, that about wraps that up, I think. Did you have anything else to add on age gaps? No, that was fun.
00:50:00
Speaker
But also, let's keep the big age gaps in paranormal. And they're still like, you have to work hard to make it not uncomfortable, I think. Yes, you do. You have to follow some rules. And then it's usually, it can be quite fun a lot of the time, genuinely. It's just, if you think about it, you just don't think about it too much.
00:50:18
Speaker
Yeah, just don't think about it.
Wrap-Up and Book Recommendations
00:50:21
Speaker
Awesome. Let's round things off. I've decided that there'll be a new wrap up segment of the show, mainly because we just kind of just stop and I was like, let's do a fun thing at the end. And it's a fun way of us talking about things that we have discovered or things like that. So let's see how it feels and if we like it, we'll keep doing it. And if we don't, we'll probably never do it again.
00:50:43
Speaker
We're all readers, and like most book lovers, our to-be-read pile grows exponentially faster than we are able to actually read books. So, have you guys added any books to your to-be-read piles in the last week or so? Yes. Yes. That's the short answer.
00:51:02
Speaker
Excellent. Good job. Bye, everyone. It's like admitting something bad and it's like, yes. Please don't make me say it so that I'm held accountable to reading it. I know. It's like, oh, I'm creating a rod for my back here. So I'm going to tell you about a book I will actually read because I'm really excited about it. That is a fighting talk. Isn't it? The Silence Factory by Bridget Collins.
00:51:25
Speaker
Oh, you love Bridget Collins. I love Bridget Collins. My favourite book is The Binding, I think. And The Silence Factory comes out in May. I am avidly awaiting a limited edition copy. So if anyone is aware of one, if it's come out, let me know because I will be buying all of the editions. But yeah, that looks really cool. It looks really hucky. What's the hook? So it's about silence. So it looks like it's about a guy who
00:51:55
Speaker
He really wants silence and he ends up at this silk factory, and the silk can drown out the clamour of the world and everything, and he's desperate to escape it, and so he finds this silk factory that can do exactly that for him. It sounds kind of historical as well, because the binding is a bit like that. I'm just really looking forward to getting into the world, I think. It'd be so cool. What was your one, Melissa?
00:52:21
Speaker
So for Christmas, I got bought a load of books. Of course, I've also not read that on my TV. So I got bought really nice hardback editions of Once Upon a Broken Heart by Stephanie Garber. And so I went online because I was like, Oh, I'm sure.
00:52:39
Speaker
There's like another series or something. And people are going to be screaming at me because she's so famous. And I was just, I'm not good at, I'm so sorry. I'm not good at fantasy, but I'm trying to get more into it. So I was like, I'm sure there's like a reading order or this is like a prequel or something. So I went on and like Googled it and found all these TikToks that were terrifying, telling me the order of events and like how I'm supposed to read these books. So yes, Once Upon a Broken Heart is like one series. And then the first series, it's
00:53:03
Speaker
um, Stephanie Garber had, which was on Spotify. So I started listening to a little bit on the train and then ordered the books because I'm not very good at audio book, um, is Cara Val. So that trilogy, so I've added that trilogy to my TBR. It's very pretty trilogy as well. There's like lots of nice versions and stuff like that.
00:53:21
Speaker
because I read that apparently online, not like my TBR, I read online about how to read my TBR because anything to put off actually reading it. You're supposed to read book like one, two, the third book up to chapter five, I think this is right, and then switch to Once Upon a Broken Heart and read that for a few chapters. Oh, the third book up to chapter 17 and then read the other one's chapter five, something like that. I'll double check before starting, don't worry. And then you switch back and finish Caravel's trilogy and then you go on to Broken Heart.
00:53:49
Speaker
because it kind of, the timeline slightly overlaps.
00:53:53
Speaker
So people were saying like, if you've never read them, that's the best way to read them. So that's what I'm going to do. I'm quite excited because it feels like a test. It feels like a game. It's like that Star Wars order. There's like a Star Wars order online where it's like, you watch the first two of the original. So you watch four and five, which ends with, I am your father. And then you go back and watch the prequels as it has a flashback. And then you watch six. And then you don't watch any of the others.
00:54:22
Speaker
Yes, this is the thing. This is apparently, because there's a character that's a side character and I believe in Caravel that is then the main character and the main like love interest, et cetera, in Once Upon a Broken Heart. So yeah, apparently you get to the third one, you stop at one point, read a bit of the other one up to chapter, whatever, and then switch back, finish that trilogy and then go on to the other trilogy. That's the best way to read it. And I'm interested to see if that works. So that has been added to my TBR. It feels like I've just added basically six books to the TBR. So maybe it's like quite obvious.
00:54:51
Speaker
I'll do it. Welcome to fantasy. A million words at a time. So basically all the Stephanie Garber has been added to my TBR. So I'm excited. I came across a book recently called Roadside Picnic, which is an old book. I think it was written in the 70s.
00:55:10
Speaker
and I came across it because there was a new indie video game came out called Pacific Drive and I thought it looked really cool and I heard that it was inspired by this novel and also another series of video games called The Stalker Games which came out like decades ago. They were also inspired by this novel so I was looking at it and it sounds really really cool. It's set in this kind of
00:55:30
Speaker
this extraterrestrial event happens on earth and no one really knows how or why or what it is and these kind of it creates these zones around the world and they call them visitation zones and they have they're like super dangerous they have these like unknowable phenomena and the kind of crazy artifacts and inexplicable properties within them it's illegal to go into them but like people kind of break the law and sneak in and they're called stalkers and they go and try and get stuff and they come out changed or like mutated or stuff like that i just thought it sounded really cool
00:56:00
Speaker
Yeah, that's so cool. And apparently it's a famous book and it's critically acclaimed and things like that. Just one I'd never heard of. So I was like, well, it's that kind of 70s. It's that kind of era of speculative fiction. I was reading about it and it's called Roadside Picnic because of a description from a different book about a picnic and how these objects
00:56:26
Speaker
the kind of bigger thought processes like these objects that have just been like discarded by some super advanced alien race just chucked on earth as if they're like littering and is like how we as humans treat like bugs and stuff when we're having a picnic and we just like chuck things on the ground and just leave them there.
00:56:43
Speaker
And then it's like, we're the kind of ants in the situation. Oh my God, this is like so thoughtful. Also, I'm just writing down these books and I'm like, no, I've already added six Stephanie cups. Next episode, you're going to be like, yeah, so I added the two books that you guys mentioned last week. Awesome. That's the end of the episode.
00:57:08
Speaker
Thanks for putting up with our nonsense for another episode. To stay tuned to everything we're up to, you can follow the podcast on all socials at The Chosen Tropes. Follow Melissa at Melaba, Naomi at Naomi G. Wright and Jamie at Jamie X. Greenwood. Don't forget to check out Naomi and Melissa's books as well as the Right and Wrong podcast. Thanks again and we'll see you on the next trope.