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S4.E2 - Finding an Agent
93 Plays1 month ago
We're back with more publishing myths and this week it's all about literary agents.
- Naomi Gibson, author of Every Line of You, Game Over Girl
- Melissa Welliver, author of The Undying Tower, My Love Life and the Apocalypse, Soulmates and Other Ways to Die
- Jamie Greenwood, creator & host of the Write and Wrong Podcast
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Transcript
Toxic Characters in Fiction
00:00:01
Speaker
I'm sure I can question Greg, different characters. Wow! You had it here first. I actually finished it. After every episode was like, oh my gosh, I'm so angry at these toxic characters, like, she'll have more food in my mouth, press next episode. Because I loved it, but obviously I hate it. This is so much fun. Because this is my Malfoy Hermione family. Yes! She shouldn't have done that. I'm trying to make Neville happen. It's too wholesome.
00:00:27
Speaker
sorry two host i shall die like my I found what I think was a very relevant one.
Guessing Games with Book Reviews
00:00:38
Speaker
So guess from the one star review what the book is. okay From the moment she said, Holy Paparoni, I knew I was too old to be reading this book.
00:00:50
Speaker
oh Oh, this is ringing so many bells for me. I feel like I've read this book. I also feel like this is a review I got recently where someone said I enjoyed it, but the characters were so unrelatable because they were 15, 16 years old. And I was like, well, yeah, obviously.
00:01:06
Speaker
um A clue is that it's very relevant now. Oh, um, it's I know, um, is it the good girls guide to murder? Yeah. Yes. yes because i just Yeah. yeah that's when and is And yeah, the show's out now. I haven't watched it. Um, have you guys seen it? Have you guys heard anything about it?
00:01:30
Speaker
Yeah, I've seen it. Whenever it's like, have you seen the latest teen bizarre show? I'm like, yeah, two hands up. I didn't watch it at all. So I have never, I didn't finish the book and I didn't realize I hadn't finished the book until I was watching the series. And I realized that now this ends and I checked on my Kindle and it was like 47% in. I was like, oh, what happened here? Which is no reflection on Holly Jackson. I just obviously gave up. I don't know what happened. You know, we've spoken about me with like murder mysteries before. It's just not the one. I don't know what happened to my brain. I just can't do it. No, I did watch it. It was good. Yeah. Kept my attention. The actual murder mystery is very interesting. And I guess my favorite type of thing, I guess some of it, but not all of it.
00:02:17
Speaker
So like I felt clever, but then also was surprised. That's my nice review. But also not sure how much of the book you read. So maybe you just tricked yourself into thinking you guessed it. Yeah. So maybe I tricked myself that I have guessed this and it just looked to the midpoint already had a reveal. And I was like, holy pepperoni, look at this. What a time. Yeah. No, it's good. It's good. It's good. Like little binge one because it's on Thursday. You can just binge it.
00:02:42
Speaker
Okay, awesome. um So on this week's episode, we are continuing our are writing tropes about writing and publishing kind of series. And on this one, we, last time we did writing your first novel, like writing your first manuscript and like kind of tackling that phase
Writing and Publishing Series: Manuscript to Agent
00:03:03
Speaker
of things. Now we're doing what is commonly the next step, which is getting an agent, finding an agent, all of the things to do with literary agents, etc. So there's lots of sort of myths and like concerns and worries that people have about this. We've picked a few and I think we've got some honorable mentions as well. um So let's jump right in. Naomi, what myth or trope about publishing and finding an agent to Gbook?
00:03:31
Speaker
So I went for one that is quite a common pitfall for queering writers and and I will hold my hand up and say that I did this. um And I think when we were chatting briefly before this recording, I think there's a lot of them um that we agreed we've probably all done at some point. So yeah if if if you're listening and you did this too, don't worry, you're in good company. We can all be losers together. Yeah.
00:04:01
Speaker
of So mine was that um everybody, every agent will want to rep my book, right? um Yeah. So, queering writers and often go to an agency's website and they will look at each agent and decide which one is best fit for their book. Because often these websites are very helpful. They they lay out like a manuscript wish list or like the least of genres that these agents represent. And and so let's say that the book that you're querying is a sci-fi book and the one agent you've seen on this website looks ah you know absolutely amazing. They represent a great list of authors who you really admire.
00:04:39
Speaker
They've got several big hitters, and a good record of past sales, and the editorial, if that's something that you're looking for. They've got some awards they might have won or things they've been nominated for. They look awesome. and The only pitfall is that they don't represent sci-fi, so they don't represent the genre of the book that you're writing or that you have written.
00:05:01
Speaker
um But you think to yourself, actually, your sci-fi book is totally different to every other sci-fi book. And if the agent just read it, and you're sure they'll want to represent it. So you send it them anyway. and So I want to just point out that I want to say again, I have done this, um because at that point, I had no idea what I was doing in the industry, um and just querying agents, you know, and i I want to tell you right now, flat out, it's a waste of your time. um The agent is so busy. They are some of the busiest people I've ever met. um And then when they're looking through their inbox or their submissions or their querying ah that ah the query
00:05:44
Speaker
um and they come across a submission, there's a genre they don't represent, they're going to simply skip it and move on. And they're not probably not even going to read it. They're probably not even going to open it. And they don't rep it for a reason. i You want your agent to be like the biggest sci fi nerd of all time, um because you need them to be passionate when they try and sell your book. And so if you send them a genre that they don't they don't represent, it's probably because, um you know, A, they they might not enjoy reading it. And B, they don't know any editors who they might, and who they can sell it to, right? And being an agent is all about having contacts. And um a lot of them have foster good relationships with editors, like they might, their approach might be like to have like good relationships of like
00:06:34
Speaker
20-30 people, right? And they'll try and sell to those 20-30 people across the year. And if none of them publish sci-fi, your agent isn't going to be able to to sell your book to any of those editors. That is small when you think of it that way, actually, yeah. yeah right Gatekeepers. and They are gatekeepers. But but you you you want your agent to to have a relationship with somebody who they know they can probably sell to. And if they don't have that relationship, they're not going to represent your category your your genre.
00:07:04
Speaker
And so it's a giant waste of your time to to send a sci-fi book to someone who doesn't represent sci-fi. And I say that with love because I've done it too. Okay? So hang it out there. I've been there, I've done it. yeah and and when you think about like even if an agent who didn't rep, you wouldn't necessarily want them to be your agent because like you say, yeah like a children let's say you wrote an adult sci-fi and this agent represents children's fantasy, their entire network is going to be based around children's fantasy, even if they did take you on
00:07:35
Speaker
They would have to be kind of reaching out to editors that they have not worked with yeah most likely they'd have to be building a whole new network for you. So they'd be starting from scratch to start on like opening a new genre for your book, which most likely would take a much longer time than they could just send out.
00:07:56
Speaker
and the reason they have all of their kind of connections are within the same genre is that if they pick up a children's fantasy author, they they have more than one person to submit that to. you know Yeah, absolutely. it's It's just so important that list of contacts and and they know they know what what they're all looking for as well. They are so on top of their game and if none of them are looking for what you're writing,
00:08:17
Speaker
the agent isn't going to take your book on because you know they want to take something on that they know they can probably sell right. It's so specific as well like I think the flip side of the coin of you know they'll want to read it anyway is you know when you read down and they say I am looking for a romance between elves. I would especially like it if it had a dark element of werewolf romance added in. And you're like, oh my God, that's exactly my book. That's exactly my book. And even if you don't even have those larger elements, you will persuade yourself it's exactly your book. I definitely know I have done this and my friends have done this when querying. You're like, no, they would be perfect. You know what? I'm not ever going to submit to anyone else. I'm just going to wait here from them because you don't understand. they exactly what my book and they're obviously the really difficult thing agents have is they're looking for very specific things. Usually actually after book fairs talking to people, we've spoken to a few people in their right mental hub that said they will literally update their manuscript wish list after talking to editors at book fairs because they know the sorts of things they're looking for. And don't get me wrong, it's not quite that cutthroat as in like, I hate fantasy, but singers, all these editors want to look for it. They'll talk to an editor. The editor will say something. They'll go, that actually sounds really cool and interesting. I would love to represent something like that. They already know which editors to send it to. They'll put it on their list. And yeah, I think the flip side of your coin is sometimes you can get really obsessed with the list. Maybe be like, right, this is exactly the thing. There's no way. How could they possibly turn this down? I have just written what's in their brain. Like they have asked, I have delivered. How could they possibly turn it down? And then if they turn it down, you're like, well, that's it. What's the point? I can't believe that the perfect agent has turned me down.
00:09:47
Speaker
And that' I think that's a flip side of like thinking every agent might want your book because again, they also wouldn't be a good fit anyway, because if they're not passionate enough about your project, they're not going to pitch it in a passionate way, even if you think it's what exactly what they're looking for. Yeah.
00:10:02
Speaker
Yeah, for sure.
The Art of the Cover Letter
00:10:04
Speaker
When I've spoken to agents on the the Right and Wrong podcast, I always ask at the end, like, is there anything, you know, specifically that you're looking for? And they'll often, we probably have discussed it prior, but they'll often talk about the kind of broad strokes of what they represent, like these are the genres I represent, these are the ages I represent, blah, blah, blah.
00:10:22
Speaker
And these are like the kind of more specific things I like. But then a lot of the time at the end, they'll throw in ah like, a um oh, and I'd really love to see, you know, this like a horror romance with a character that's this age doing this thing. Yeah. You know that. But when they do it, it's very much like it would be cool if that came up because maybe they've had a discussion with someone. But.
00:10:46
Speaker
It's very kind of off the cuff. that it's like They're not saying, this is the only thing I'm looking for, write this and let her want it. yeah They're saying like something like this would be cool. i and They probably have spoken to an editor about something similar like that.
00:10:59
Speaker
Yeah, and it's like the fact because the problem is, I think the hardest thing for the Gen Z generation, I think the hardest thing is like you can't really give a vibe check on a manuscript wishlist. But you can ask for something specific. But a lot of the time, it's like when I read a book, and we we talk a lot like I took a lot with other writers about what is voice and that kind of stuff. There was just a general vibe that is really hard to explain that an agent will connect with in a book. And because it's a vibe, some other agents won't connect with it, some will. And even if you're writing exactly what they want, if it's not the exact type of voice they're looking for or the similar sort of vibe that they want, then they're not going to take it anyway. And that's something that's really indescribable as well. So financial it's not the be all and end all. cas Cassia wrote a really good sub stack about this a couple of weeks ago. If you if you um don't subscribe to her sub stack, I would really recommend if you're a querying writer actually.
00:11:54
Speaker
because she's written some really um interesting insights. But one of them was that i and when an agent requests something really specific, like what what you guys were just saying, and, um you know, writer queries them with that exact sort of storyline, let's say, and and then they get rejected. It's like, why did they get rejected? And what what you were just saying about voice and and how you deliver that and ah storyline.
00:12:17
Speaker
it it it can be so varied and so different to what maybe they were expecting. And possibly that might be why um it gets rejected. So, so yeah, so don't send your book to somebody who doesn't at least represent your genre. But equally, don't just query the person who's looking specifically for what you've written. Yes, yeah.
00:12:38
Speaker
I'd just say, just because we touched on, if you you find an agency and you're looking at an agent to send it to, yeah um the general rule of thumb is you only send ah a submission to one agent within an agency. yeah and And for the most part, if that manuscript is is is good and the person you send it to actually might not be the right one, they are likely to pass it on to the more appropriate agent for for whatever the genre or style is. Yes, that is really common. They kind of read for each other, especially if they think the vibe is really cool, but it's not quite for them. Yeah, yeah that definitely happens. they are They are actually more friendly and less scary than they seem, agents. They're very friendly. but Every agent I've had on the podcast have been super Yeah, and they they want you to succeed because yeah that's how they make money, like to put it very bluntly. Also, they love literature, I guess, fine. you know They want you to succeed. So they are good people. Yeah, yes, indeed. I'm going to go next because yeah I thought it'd be good to sandwich myself between, as I'm the only one here who is sans agent, ah I will be speaking
00:13:48
Speaker
off what I've learned from speaking to many agents on the Right and Wrong podcast, um because there's like, we talked about this before and there's like so many things, there's so many like misconceptions and myths that go around with like what agents do and like how to get agents and things like that. um But I think there's a lot specifically specifically to do with within the submission, the cover letter itself. And I think it can really go both ways.
00:14:14
Speaker
um the two ends of this are, I mean, submissions are a daunting prospect as it is. Like it's, it always takes a bit of courage for you to like, I mean, for me at least, to like build up the courage to write a submission, to send a submission. yeah um You're really putting yourself out there. So I think it's very easy.
00:14:32
Speaker
to overthink the cover letter and kind of get lost in the minutia and think, oh, but it needs to be perfect. It's not the most important part of the cover letter, the submission. The most important part of the submission will always be the manuscript and the writing.
00:14:48
Speaker
That being said, the boost that a cover letter can give to a submission should absolutely not be overlooked. And I think, I know when I first tried submitting,
00:15:03
Speaker
I really didn't know what the cover load was supposed to be and I didn't know how much you were supposed to talk about the book, how much you were supposed to talk about yourself, if it's supposed to be long, short. There are guidelines online, but it was only when I started speaking to agents that I got more of a sense, because it's so subjective and agents all like different things, you get more of a sense of the agent's just, it's more like a vibe check than anything else. yeah And it's the thing that I think a lot of people don't realize is like, you're basically using the cover letter. Its primary purpose um purpose is to set up and introduce the manuscript so that you can put the the agent or the editor or the or whoever it is that's reading the submission in the best possible mindset once they get into the manuscript. I mean, the ideally,
00:15:55
Speaker
you get them excited about it. So they're like, okay, chuck this cover letter aside, let me get into the the writing, you know. And I think it's from what I've heard from agents is like a lot of the time, the things that kind of go wrong with cover letters, which can actually like be quite detrimental on their experience of reading the manuscript, like you only get to make that first impression once.
00:16:15
Speaker
is if you're like if maybe the cover letter insinuates that it's going to be a psychological thriller and then they start reading and it turns out that it's actually like a sort of comedic whodunit murder mystery yeah and it's what what will happen then is like they'll go into it thinking it's going to be a sort of silly knives out. No, they'll go into it thinking it's going to be like a serious psychological thing, but it's actually like a silly knives out comedy thing. And they'll miss all the first jokes. they'll The vibe will be totally off. They'll be kind of lost in terms of theme for the first few pages. And I think any one writing, anyone who's looked into anything knows how important the kind of first line first page is to like impacting someone like that.
00:16:59
Speaker
Yeah, it's a really good point. Yeah, I totally agree. And i I think, remember, the sad thing is we're always thinking about how do we get an agent to say yes to our manuscript? Whereas really, there are some agents, especially during the pandemic, we're getting 250 manuscripts across the desk. and They are looking for reasons to say no, they have to, or else they lose their mind. They never get everything read. Like, I'm sure agents read as much as they can. I know agencies have special reading days, or they encourage you to read this afternoon, make sure you get three submissions.
00:17:28
Speaker
um However, there's no way they're able to give a huge chunk of time or say a reader would to those first three chapters. They're not able to do that. They are looking for ways to get the work off their desk, surely sometimes. I know that sounds really cynical, but surely that is something that I'm, I feel like when I wrote my query letter, I didn't realize how important it was.
00:17:49
Speaker
And I feel like as well it's become more important because there's that little pitch in there and there's this whole thing now about high concept pitches and how do I quickly elevate a pitch this to an editor if I'm in the room with them or at a party or like whatever. I feel like this is something that keeps coming up and it can be really tricky. Like I'm reading a Stephen King book at the minute, right?
00:18:09
Speaker
And I feel like this is every Stephen King book. I'm reading the Institute and I'm 30 pages in. And I was told, yeah, this is a book about like missing kids and magic powers in a special school. And I opened it. It's like, there's a man at the airport and he's been delayed. So he takes a job in a small town to make money. And then he goes to a motel and I'm 30 pages in. And I swear to God, like if you told me this, I checked three times I was reading the right book.
00:18:31
Speaker
I kept switching to the beginning of my Kindle and I was like, I've opened the right book. I've definitely opened the right book. and However, am I super interested? Yeah, because Stephen King is just so good at building characters. I kind of don't care that it's not the thing. Now, Stephen King can do that. yeah He can absolutely do that. You as a new person writing cannot do that. And so you're totally right. You need to set up an introduction to yourself and your writing in your cover letter that will help the agent get in the right mindset for reading your stuff.
00:19:00
Speaker
Yeah, it sets the scene, doesn't it? Even you say like, yes, steve obviously Stephen King has built up enough goodwill over, you know, a lifetime of writing very successful novels for you to be like,
00:19:14
Speaker
Okay. It's like, it's not what I was expecting, but I'll keep reading because he's a good, he's a good writer. yeah I know it's going to come together.
Query Letters and Series Potential
00:19:21
Speaker
ah Would you do that to anyone else? Yeah, exactly. no But even saying that, like you're there being like, you're kind of, you're, you're not fully immersed because you're like, is this the right, did I open the right book? yeah like he to even learn yeah You know, even, you you're pulling back from it already. I don't know if, yeah, did I, maybe I need to take this back or am I reading the right thing? i think for an adult book as well though, you you are more willing to give it time yeah to get into it. If it was a YA book, I probably would have been there off already by the if nothing was happening in the first 30 pages. Yeah, no, it has grabbed my attention. It's been absolutely fine. But I think also So it's like, it's quite chunky, but it's surprising because Stephen King. Oh my God, he writes really long books. He does write really long books. Something that is like a top tip. I feel like this is one of those things that it very much depends on what you're writing. Do not take this as like an every single time tip, but I do mentoring. I read a lot of query letters, right? And I think something
00:20:21
Speaker
as an example of something that can maybe put off an agent depending on what it is, is when people say, this is the first book in a 10 book planned fantasy series. And so this is, through as an example, if you're writing in chapter books, they're expected to be series, right? I probably would not give this advice if you're writing chapter books, because chapter books are very commonly a series.
00:20:43
Speaker
and However, the number one sentence you see quite a lot is series potential. So, you know, if you're writing something and you say, this is the first in a 10 series book with the arc going through and it really doesn't start until book three, and then they've got to read your first three chapters and they're thinking, gosh, this is 500,000 words. There are nine more books.
00:21:01
Speaker
this is like very intense and again you are not putting them in the right you know you've got to imagine this agent they've been working a 10 hour day it's 11 pm they've got to read 10 openings before they go to bed and they've they're at the bottom of a bottle of wine and they're just like i i need to not like i'm so tired Yeah, that's so true. Don't do this to me. Whereas if you just said literally the exact same book, and okay, maybe it shouldn't be 500,000 words, don't get me wrong, but let's say it was not 500,000 words, like 100,000 words, but you just said it had serious potential, that would calm them down a bit. I know I get very panicky if I see how long a book is. Like I do have that thing of, oh my God, this is so long, I'm so intimidated. Or like there's loads and loads in the series, like me with Brandon Sanderson, I guess get really intimidated. So you also don't want to intimidate the agent before they even start would be helpful.
00:21:46
Speaker
yeah I mean, also, if you're a debut and you're trying to pitch a 500,000 word book, I would maybe write something else and come back to that.
00:22:01
Speaker
We'll find a way to split it up. And again, you might think, but then it's a five book series and each one's a hundred thousand words. Well, I get just series potential. Series potential is like the phrase that does cover many, many sins. i am Again, massive caveat. Do not just say that for everything.
00:22:18
Speaker
don't just throw in series potential. That's just really not going to fit. And of course you hear about, you know, huge auctions with series, like for instance, m Annabelle Stebman, AF Stebman with the Scandal series. Obviously that was always going to be a series. They bought it as, is it five books or seven books? I feel like it's five. I might be making that up. and And obviously they were always going to support it as a series and it had to be a series. Absolutely. It's magical middle grade. It's a completely different pitch that you're asking about. So yeah, obviously read the room, use a bit of context, use a bit of common sense. But yeah, you don't want to be ah overwhelming the agent before they've even started. No, I think as a querying writer, the rules apply to you a lot more. Sorry. I think once you get a book out and you've done well with that book, then you can maybe do what you want. Yeah. Like Stephen King, let's say. Yeah. Well, Brandon Sanderson, he has said in his lectures, he wrote 12 novels before he got published and he got published with Mistborn, which the first book does sit really nicely by itself, but it is also original. It's a trilogy. This was also published in the early 2000s when the trilogy was much more being picked up.
00:23:28
Speaker
But like, the books he publishes now, he would not be allowed to publish if he hadn't had the success he had. No, I agree. Yes, the trust he's built with his readership. You have no trust with the readership and the readership is one person and it's an overworked agent. So do not make life hard for yourself, please.
00:23:46
Speaker
And you also say like, oh yeah, if you if you had written a book that big, you can split it up. Interestingly in his lectures, he talks about, his books are approximately 400 to 500,000 words. yeah um but he does But he says they are written as a trilogy, but in one book. So he's basically writing a trilogy of books. That's how the kind of story arcs work. right ah but he's But they are just kind of, I say condensed. It's not very condensed. Condensed, fine. Condensed.
00:24:15
Speaker
Yeah, condensed into one thing. ah Getting back on to, I had a bit more to say about cover letters. I want to mention here last week on the podcast, we had um Hannah Weatherill from Watson Little and she was saying Because ah we mentioned the pitch the pitch is like maybe the most important part of the cover letter now. It's about yeah telling the agent what to expect, what you know what you're going to try and do in it. um And you can even put ah some agents prefer spoilers, some agents would like sort of um
00:24:47
Speaker
honestly, spoilers, but like clues yeah in the cover letter so that they know that, okay, there is going to be a twist at some point like that. But Hannah was saying, if you can fit into your one line pitch, if you can fit just like a touch on who the character or characters are and the setting as well as kind of you whatever the story pitches. She thinks that's great because like you're giving her one line yeah to be like, you know, it's it's dystopian. The characters are ah teenagers and like this is the the pitch of the story. You know what I mean? And that's mainly what the agents want to know before they get into the manuscript.
00:25:31
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I think pictures are like, cause I've not queried now for, when did I, so I started with my first agent in 2017. So I just felt the landscape, especially post COVID, which just seemed to accelerated everything. Like every industry seems to have accelerated a different direction because of COVID.
00:25:47
Speaker
like, it's so, so different now. I do keep my hand in because I talk to a lot of agents and also I do mentoring and querying and I get feedback basically from those um mentees about what's helpful in the query letter, et cetera. But yeah, I remember it was always, I feel like they do want to hear a little bit about you. That's great.
00:26:06
Speaker
but I was always told the general rule of thumb is twice as much about the book as you. So somebody said to me like 150 words for the pitch, which isn't that many, 150 words for the pitch and 75 words about you is like a nice little, like just one page query letter, which is harder than it sounds. so they're not, when it comes to that sort of bibliographies action, yeah I think some people are worried because they think they need to have like placements in awards and like long lists and things like that. But ah the agents that I've spoken to, they're like, yeah, you should mention that because it's worth us knowing, but yeah it's more
00:26:46
Speaker
to get a glimpse of you as a person outside of the writing and and this, because it's a very important relationship between an author and an agent. like if you're not If you're not on the same wavelength, almost beyond the writing itself, it it does transcend a business relationship in some ways. like The agent does a lot more than just you know selling the book writes for an author, for the most part at least.
00:27:13
Speaker
I think a lot of the, what they what they're kind of looking for in the bibliography is just a little bit about you as a person. It's like, I live around this area, you know, like I have a dog, I love the to go to the cinema, like these kinds of little tidbits so they can get a sense of you as a human being and not just like the person who wrote all these words down. yeah And then the last thing, oh yeah, the only thing that it's sometimes fun to ask agents if they have any like,
00:27:39
Speaker
pet peeves or like gripes about um cover letters and one thing that often comes up and in the most respectful way they'll say ah it's never a good sign usually when they get a cover letter and the the book is described as something totally new like revolutionary the likes of which has never been seen before in literature Uh-oh, original. The bad ones from last episode. Yeah. See our first episode.
00:28:11
Speaker
Yeah. Because yeah, we we talked about this in the episode before because it's yeah like they would say most of the time it's not true. And for the rest of the, like if it if it is true, then unless you're looking at a very literary fiction experimental niche, yeah it's going to be so hard for them to sell that to an editor.
00:28:30
Speaker
yeah Yeah, yeah, originals are for that word in a group. Don't do it. Yeah. um Yeah. Because I mean, good or bad, the industry revolves around labels and oh yeah the market understands genres and styles and settings. And if they can't label it, they can't put it on a shelf. They can't sell it to a bookshop.
00:28:53
Speaker
Marketing love to be able to put your book your book in a box. They absolutely love it. It tells it tells but everybody where they can sell it, you know? It tells a bookshop what shelf to go by. And it totally sucks, like, short term. And I know, and you may have written something re-original and amazing. And then in 10 years, when you're multi-million and everyone loves your book, you've basically started a whole new genre that you could absolutely turn around and say, in your face, Melissa, Jamie and Naomi.
00:29:18
Speaker
And that's absolutely fine, but that's when you've already built up your readership and probably quite a few lucky things have happened along the way to help boost that book along. And you've had just the right editor and just the right agent, but it's probably because it was originally, sorry, ah pitched the correct way so that they would understand how to put it out there and find that readership. Because that's that's the main issue, isn't it? Like, even if I want something original, what am I going to type into Amazon, other online bookstores are available? Or and what am I going to say when I go in the shop? I just want something original. well Am I even gonna like that? Like, what does that mean? And that whole bookshop person who tried to help me find, yeah, like, what do I even mean by that? I do need a genre to try and find stuff, even if when I read it, I go, wow, so cool. That wasn't what I was expecting. It's actually kind of crossover. A little bit, a little bit of marketing, sad. I know that's true.
00:30:11
Speaker
ah said When there's like, there's just so much has been written already as well. It's very difficult to be original whilst also being ah like understandable. I think the thing, I've said this with a few agents as well, when they're like, it's hard to say exactly what you're looking for, um but what especially if you're writing in genre. So if you're writing in fantasy or sci-fi or romance, the thing you want to look for is like familiar yet new. Yeah.
00:30:40
Speaker
and you need to have the balance right, and it needs to make sense. Because if it's all familiar, it's boring. If it's all new, people are confused, and especially in genre, because it's like, I buy a, you know, I'll get a fantasy book because I want to see magic, and I want to see an interesting yeah and interactions that are beyond reality. If you give me, like, Lord of the Rings again, I already know what it is. Equally, if you give me, ah like, Yellow Face, I'm like, well, where's the magic, you know? It was a very weird option, so I compared that. I want to see the crossover, Yellowface, X, Lord of the Rings, when Bilbo gets into publishing. shes
00:31:27
Speaker
that Sauron steals his idea.
00:31:32
Speaker
Sorry. Yeah, I mean that was that that was what yeah I just think there's for me at least when I first tried to start submitting um cover letters I was so confused by it and I didn't know whether to like not worry about it or to like be very worried about it. Yeah. And I think it's just about understanding ah what it is and what its purpose is and its its purpose is the main purpose is to basically pitch nowadays at least is to pitch to the agent in a very brief kind of summary like what the book is, what you're trying to do with it um so that they can be excited about jumping into it because most agents will read the cover letter first. and So you just want to get them excited to actually read the writing and not have them be like dreading getting going into the writing. sounds awfully yeah
00:32:21
Speaker
or confused when they open it and they're like, wait, I thought this was like a contemporary fiction and why are there aliens on page one? um ah yeah Melissa, what did you pick as your myth for getting an agent? Yeah, so I picked.
The Agent Journey: Expectations vs. Reality
00:32:39
Speaker
Actually, a bit like Naomi's, it kind of has two sides of the same coin. So I picked, if I get an agent really fast,
00:32:46
Speaker
It means like if the you know if I get an agent within two weeks and they're really excited, I will immediately sell at a temple butcher auction the following week. And then I think on the flip side of that coin is if it takes me three years to get an agent and I get like 200 rejections, I'm an awful writer and I will never sell. And like basically both of these things are wrong for the same reason, which is why I'm kind of containing them in one.
00:33:07
Speaker
I have so many friends that I would not name ah but I'm sure they have talked about this on various blogs and like their newsletters and stuff. I'm sure if you ask any author they have a totally different story how they got into it but I definitely know authors that got an agent really quickly and did sell like a week later in like a huge pre-empt or a six-figure auction or whatever.
00:33:28
Speaker
And I also know lots of writers that had the most rejections ever. I know so many talented writers that are some of the most talented writing I've ever read. And they still don't have an agent and they just don't seem to be ah hitting the right notes or maybe it's the greatest or maybe it's none of those things. I've just been really unlucky. and But then I also know ones that then got the agent and then sold really well. I know people that I'm in a submission group where they've been on submission for two years and they thought the book was dead and then randomly got you know an offer and then they've ended up with two books out in the same year and it's just like there's so much that goes into this look and that doesn't mean obviously that there's no point working on k craft at all because no one cares and it's just about having a really good pitch that you get from chat GTP please don't do that and and then the rest of the book it doesn't matter how rubbish it's written and you know that's not at all what I'm saying and whilst I am also saying that there's plenty of talented people that have not got the deserved book deal or agent yet
00:34:25
Speaker
Um, yeah, it's really difficult one because obviously a lot of people really want to analyze and if we could analyze it, then I'm sure like that would be a, like, that would be a book that was sold quite well if it could actually work out what makes a book go to auction. But weirdly, because of my age, I always think of like, you know, an X factor, you'd get some people, if people have not seen X factor, because you're too young, good for you. But also, and So it's a singing in competition. Simon Cowell very famously is one of the judges and people come on stage and there are people that come on that Simon Cowell is like, this person's a star. I'm going to make them a star. And you never hear from them again. So he was wrong. And there are also people that come on and go,
00:35:04
Speaker
Well, you're wrong, Simon. I'm going to prove you wrong. You'll see me in a year, Robbie. And then they're not. and But there are also people who turned down that have gone on to be huge, big successes. And there are also people that obviously Sam counts are multi, multi-millionaire. He has picked up lots of people that end up being, you know, successes. Like here One Direction was quite popular.
00:35:22
Speaker
So, like, obviously he does know what he's doing. It's not that whenever an agent tells you, well, they don't know what they're doing. They don't recognise pure genius when they see it. But that is not just not the vibe. Like, you don't want to be that person on X Factor that you see on all the TikToks now who's just storming out on the stage, like, you don't understand pure genius. um However,
00:35:41
Speaker
It does happen, like people miss stuff all the time, like I know Mallory Blackmun is a very famous author that talks about this a lot and she said she had like 200, and by the way when I say 200 rejections, I know a lot of people nowadays might listen to the Pardon thing, 200 rejections isn't very many, but ah when ah Mallory Blackmun was querying things like Pig Heart Boy and Noughts and Crosses etc,
00:36:03
Speaker
and You had to like print it out, post it off, it got posted back. 200 was loads, especially then. I mean, it's a lot now. like People aim for 100 rejections, but it it was a lot. And you know and then, of course, the really big hit out was Noughts and Crosses. And it was slightly original, slightly strange, and people weren't quite sure what to make of it, but it it was the big thing that made a big household name.
00:36:27
Speaker
um as well as like sort of her middle grade stuff um you know so it's really difficult because obviously you hear those stories and it can give you hope absolutely like i've heard those stories and thought like oh yeah you know it could be you or people say well you know it wasn't my first novel they people are obsessed with debut right it wasn't my first novel that made me really big it was actually like my fifth novel or here in brandon sandson oh i wrote 12 novels so you know for like a whole week he wrote books and then he wrote the one because he writes like 15 books a day so i'm sure that took him a long time to write 12 novels And so, you know, like, it it can be inspirational, but I think sometimes also you can get down, especially if you're tracking your rejections and maybe you've got more than that person. and I know the very famous one is, oh, JK Rowling had 12 rejections, you know, and people love rolling that one out, especially if they're not in the right one, like 12. Come on now. but rather than that Well, I finally was 12 because I think that's the one that's always bandied around. And I think it's because I think those are just to publish a rejection. Now I think about it. Look, i you know, that's what everyone says on the Internet and the Internet is never wrong. So that's but that's not very many either. So you think to yourself, oh, God, am I absolutely useless if I can't write a really good book and I've had all of these rejections over years and years?
00:37:40
Speaker
and as you like we were talking about with other authors it might not be the right book it might just not be the right time for like a particular book there's a million reasons and there's also a million reasons why people get snapped up and it's usually the word zeitgeist right yeah like people get snapped up all like so a lot of people who say start a trend and are really making that bank and have this huge breakout sensational book, they probably did not get snapped up straight away because they were maybe a bit too four-letter word original, right? um And then it's just broken out and made this huge big thing and it's just become this massive zeitgeist. But then people chase that trend, don't they? And I'm not talking about what we always say, which is don't write a book to trend because publishing is so slow and it's like years behind. And
00:38:22
Speaker
you won't see it coming. I mean, I'm sure there's like vampires has been coming up for ages and people keep talking about it. And like all these agents like we just need vampire books, really need a vampire book. And so suddenly all these vampire books are coming out, which is great. I love vampire books. Like that doesn't bother me. um But it just feels like it's sort of cyclical and they've decided to jump on the vampire trend. And so they're just going to be more popular right now. And maybe a vampire book you were querying five years ago, 10 years ago,
00:38:47
Speaker
If you maybe just like, you know, tweaks and stuff brought up today might do really well now, but was absolute crickets back then. So yeah, it doesn't really mean anything. It can. It can mean something. Sometimes you will have a really quick sale if agents are fighting over you. And it's a lovely position to be in, but it it doesn't mean it will go on to sell. That does absolutely happen. Sometimes editors do not agree for whatever reason.
00:39:13
Speaker
And same on the flip side, if it takes you a long time to find the right project, the right timing for that project and the right champion for that project, it doesn't mean that it won't sell at all.
00:39:25
Speaker
Yeah, there's no correlation in terms of speed and like number of projections and like success of a book. I had Karen Jennings on, um who's a, she writes literary fiction and she, her, one of her books was long listed, an island it's called was long listed for the Booker prize. And she was saying how it got many, many, I mean, a lot more, it was something like 30 rejections or something from various different editors. Right. Before, um before, you know, they finally won, publishers sort of said, yeah, we'll take a chance on this. And that's a book that was long listed for the Booker Prize, like the most prestigious prize in literature.
00:40:07
Speaker
Yeah, I heard the same about, it's called Cleopatra and Frankenstein, Coco Mellor's debut. um Now Blue Sisters, she has out. So for Cleopatra and Frankenstein, it was everywhere and it just had a really great marketing campaign. It was all over TikTok, it was all in the bookshops, like the booksells really got behind it. But that, when I was reading about it in some blooming culture magazine thing,
00:40:28
Speaker
and she was saying that she only got one offer from that publisher apparently and so that publisher just really believed in that book and then now Blue Sisters has come out and I feel like that not only is everywhere off the back of that it's considered like so so good especially for a second book which usually everyone panics don't they about like difficult second book stuff and it's I've not read Blue Sisters but apparently it's incredible and she's probably going to be up for lots of prizes I'm sure for that one isn't just come out so Yeah, so, you know, it it doesn't necessarily mean anything. And I know it seems strange, like, but how could so many people turn down something that so many other people really liked? It's like, well, it's one gatekeeper, it's like what Naomi was saying, you're sending out to maybe 30 editors. And to be honest, that's a lot, actually, depending on your genre. um And especially in the UK, there's just not that many places to send things. So it's a lot of gatekeepers having to guess what people will like. They're not always correct. But it also doesn't mean they're completely wrong and stupid.
00:41:22
Speaker
if they turn something down either. There's always like something you can take from the feedback. yeah But with editors as well, it's not just what they, they might really like something, but they can't fit it in because of scheduling. Yeah, that's true too. So true. Or can't get marketing on board or something. Yeah. yeah Or if they've just signed a sci-fi novel, and they have a window for release for that sci-fi novel, and then they, so you know, the editor receives another one, they're like, oh, this is so good. ah Like, if we took this, it wouldn't be able to come out for four or five years. No, because they'd be competing with themselves.
00:41:57
Speaker
Yeah, they won't take it in that case because it, first of all, it means they're not flexible enough if the market or think popular things change to put something new in that slot. But also it's not fair on the author, like you don't want to sign a book deal where they're like, yeah, so this book's going to come out in five years time.
00:42:12
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, which does happen sometimes would say and if some people with we are talking about chapter books, like because they're so short in the series and they usually come out a few months apart, because the kids grow out of that age range quite quickly. It does mean sometimes it's scheduled so far ahead. They have to be waiting two or three years just to announce, which feels mad. And also, you know, you could have a book that maybe you don't want to very similar books coming out from the same house.
00:42:38
Speaker
Because even though you might think, yeah, but you know, you could have lots of crossover with marketing, etc. It's like they can't champion both in the same way. Yeah, they can't compete with each other. Yeah, you can't do so. Yeah, another editor might be thrilled to have, oh, I'm so glad I've really been lucky. That's what they say. Like I've had the gap on my list for a vampire romance or whatever it may be. And they're thrilled to pick up your book, whereas maybe three others turned it down because they already have one.
00:43:01
Speaker
ah And those was they'll keep gaps like that for specific things. yeah um Yeah, really good episode on Right Wrong Podcast with Phoebe Morgan, ah who is an editor. um If anyone wants to go like hear a lot more in depth about this kind of stuff and what editors have to do and like the decisions they make. And she was saying, yeah, there's a number of books that she would have loved to have published, but couldn't because of various reasons, which were nothing to do with the quality of the writing or like yeah the concept or anything like that.
00:43:31
Speaker
Yeah. So much luck and timing. yeah It's a bit of a dark art, isn't it? Trying to match a book. I mean, it's it's hard, it's hard enough to, to get an agent, um, and someone who's passionate enough about your books that they want to try and sell it. It's even harder to hook somebody who wants to buy it. You know, it yeah it's, it's, it's a tricky thing to do. And like what we've said, you know, that there are a lot of these agents only have so many contacts.
00:43:59
Speaker
Um, because the way that they work is that they nurture these contacts and they, they're kind of like colleagues or or good friends. And so if none of those friends are looking for. Sci-fi, let's say, um, you know, the sci-fi book that you're querying isn't going to get sold.
00:44:16
Speaker
And it's it's just so tricky, to its so much luck involved. There really is so much luck. and And I think it's fair to say that you will be waiting. And I know that the dream for most people who are listening to this is to be a full-time writer, because it's definitely um something that we all talked about before. and yeah But if you have a day job, that'll at least keep you your mind off it and keep you busy while you wait, because you can be waiting for a long, long time, unfortunately.
00:44:46
Speaker
yeah I remember, I can't think who it was now, but somebody once said to me, an author, don't give up your day job until you get offered three times your salary. That's what he said. And I'll say, that's actually probably a really good rule of thumb. Because probably be thinking, I'd be rich if I was given three times my salary. Well, you know, you're probably waiting years to announce. Like if you're going to give up your day job, which, you know, danger.
00:45:11
Speaker
don't do it. But um if you might want to give it your day job, yeah, three times your salary, which seems kind of wild. But I think that's really good advice because like say you'll be waiting at least probably a year to announce and then the way that the advances are staged, you're probably not going to see any money until publication again. So it's, it's yeah. I mean, everything's so isn't it? Like, I won't say which of my books this was with, but I have been on submission where somebody showed interest in week one, like like the second day they showed interest. yeah and But the offer didn't go down for eight weeks.
00:45:46
Speaker
because they had to persuade everyone else in the department and blah, blah, blah. Now, if that person, perhaps if they had been, now I've always wondered how do these like 48 hour preamps were, because maybe if you are trusted with a whole department and maybe you have a couple of times a year, you can put those offers down. I've no idea if that's how it works. It feels like that might be possibly how it works. Maybe I would have got an offer quicker.
00:46:09
Speaker
But I had to be in a position where actually, which is good, I think, you know, the whole team had to be persuaded, like had to go to what's called second reads and other people had to read it and decide yeah if they thought it was worth buying. And the marketing team had to think about, you know, how much money can we get back from maybe selling foreign rights, etc. It's just so much that goes into it. So, oh, yeah, they they showed interest really fast. But yeah, it was eight eight weeks.
00:46:31
Speaker
but It depends what time of year it is as well because like if it's over Christmas, you know, everybody's off on holiday. They're prioritizing their own families. If it's in the summer holidays, and yeah one really good point actually yeah everyone's tag tailing leave, aren't they? When people are off, then other people are off. It's difficult to get the whole team together. People at book fairs have never a good time. No.
00:46:49
Speaker
Yeah, is there so many things that go into it? It's just, it's just not that simple. So yes, do not think, do not think either way, to be honest. Have no expectations. Never have hope. Be miserable all the time and you will be pleasantly surprised. You'll never be disappointed.
00:47:05
Speaker
You'll never be disappointed if you are the embodiment of disappointment. Perfect. That's the thing, you can't assume anything in publishing. there you really can' listen There's no rule of thumb, it's so hard. and like so As a data driven person whose day job involves a lot of data, like this drives me insane. There is no pattern, no discernible pattern. Sorry, everyone.
00:47:29
Speaker
Yeah. I just realised my microphone was the wrong way around this entire time. Oh well. Yeah.
00:47:41
Speaker
ah yeah I know so many agents. I know so many authors. If you like compare, like you say, there is no correlation. I know in the same way that you were saying, aid authors who have got an agent very quickly and then not sold a book, and then authors who have been submitting to agents for years, and then as soon as they get the agent, they also get the book deal. There's no rhyme.
00:48:09
Speaker
or like way of putting it and and like we were saying like all it takes is one you know that we were talking about books were been rejected by everyone it's the same with agents you know all it takes is one agent to say yes and you have an agent it's not like you obviously it would be nice if lots of agents said yes oh yeah but you're always going to end up with one agent yeah caveat being sometimes people will have two agents for international territories, but that's a different thing and you don't submit to both of them. um Cool. Let's talk about, we had a few, before we end this episode, we had a few honorable mentions, ah which was a a list that Melissa put in our text chat. First one was was the one you picked. And then we you had ah getting an agent, ah you mentioned this, ah I need to get an agent to publish a book.
00:48:59
Speaker
Yeah, not true. Obviously, you kind of true depends what route you want to go. Yeah. Obviously, your' commit you're making a commitment either way, whether you're committing to traditional publishing and working as an agent or you're committing to being an indie published self published author.
00:49:18
Speaker
Yep. And both are completely valid ways into publication. We'll not have it said any other way. Absolutely. There are some incredible self-published books. There are some incredible TRAD published books. And of course the opposite is true for both, which of course is because exactly what we're talking about, timing, et cetera, what you can have control of, that might be something. Also with TRAD, there is the odd things such as um the Times chicken house competition, et cetera. There are competitions where you can be published let's off the back of a competition. um Probably if you're working with a traditional publisher where things are more out of your hands than with indie publishing, I most people would then suggest even if you want that competition to pick up an agent to help you with the legalities and the negotiations and all the things that we just have a closed curtain on and don't see before you get into try publishing. So I would recommend having one if you're going that route. But no, you do not need an agent to publish a book.
00:50:13
Speaker
but also I would say maybe the like one of the only cheat codes, easiest ways to get an agent. I say easiest as if it's easy, but yeah um I had Jess Popplewell on the podcast recently and she won the Times Chicken House Chairman's prize. yeah As part of that prize, she signed with her agent. yeah um But if you if you win a prize, which involves a book deal,
00:50:44
Speaker
um I think it becomes very easy to get an agent because you are essentially, you're not paying them directly, but they are, that's a guaranteed paycheck for them because you already have a book deal, they're just going to come in and negotiate it.
00:50:57
Speaker
yeah So that's maybe the only cheat code, which is not easy to do. You still have to win a pretty major competition. Yeah, it's still hard. I don't need an agent, they just take 15% of your money for doing nothing. Even though I said I wrote this, I don't think this.
00:51:20
Speaker
Lucy, she doesn't think this. We promise.
00:51:25
Speaker
I just think I hear, I hear this a lot fully enough on school visits. So on school visits, the kids are really interested in how much money you have, like yeah which solid gold car in the car park must be your car because you must be famous because you're here giving us a talk and I actually gave quite a serious answer about how it's not making you a millionaire necessarily. And usually the kids are either very disbelieving or don't really get that.
00:51:49
Speaker
Yeah. and then pop Exactly. And so they always ask about ways into publishing. I'm traditionally published, so I have an agent. I want to explain that the agent takes 15% of your money, which is a very simple way of putting it. and They're like, oh, okay. So I just won't bother with that then, because it sounds like they're just taking 15% of your money to what? Like introduce you to a couple of editors. I'll just ah find them online. I'll just send my stuff in. Like what And there's just so many, oh my God, there's so many things that agents do. It is not even, I'm not even thinking about all the stuff we were talking about, where they have like an entire roller-dex of editors, they have relationships with those editors, they know how those editors work, and if they'll work well with you and your personality type, not even taking that into account.
00:52:29
Speaker
Your editor does so much, ah sorry, your agent does so much work for you. yeah Like they check your contracts, they negotiate on your behalf. They go into bat for you. Like once you're signed, you think, oh, why do I need my agent now? I've got my editor, I'm just working away. I've got my six-figure deal with Penguin or whoever, you know, doing really well. And then they turn around and they go, okay, cool. um Here's your cover.
00:52:49
Speaker
and you hate it. You hate the cover and you don't want to you know rock the boat. You are like an unknown author and you're thinking of course I just mean I just can't say anything. No, tell your agent. Go running to your mum and your agent will go in and bat for you. It's brilliant. Like they will go in and fight on your behalf. They will also help to show you maybe why say that cover was chosen what marketing we're talking about, they will go in and ask those questions that are really awkward for you to ask. They do all that stuff for you, as well as having all the contacts. You can't just sadly email, you know, your favorite editor at Penguin with your manuscript. So that's not how it works. Sadly, they don't take ah what's called unsolicited submissions anyway. But yeah, I just think people think that agents don't do anything for their 15%, I think, because they watch like TV shows. But like TV shows love to show agents in a really bad light.
00:53:39
Speaker
Yeah, that's really true. They're absolutely not representative of what agents actually do. Like I'm just thinking of like castle and stuff. And I'm like, agents don't come to your house and like nag you for your latest edits. Or like a style in Friends or something where she just like really uses. It's like, this is not, please, no. It still was happening. Um, it's called episodes. It's like a British comedy, but with Matt Blank in it. And he abuses his agent and like his dad dies and he rings his agent and he's like, my dad's just died. And the agent goes, don't worry buddy. I'll take care of it. I'll arrange a funeral and everything.
00:54:15
Speaker
Like I said to Ollie, I was like, could you imagine if I rang Joe? well so I need you to arrange a funeral for me, would you just drop everything else? Like you just wouldn't. No, it's not yeah quite like that, but they definitely they definitely do enough for the 15%. Agents and in Hollywood and like acting is a whole different kind of thing. Maybe they do do that. A whole different beast. yeah Yeah, I've heard it's there it's much more like cutthroat. but Yeah.
00:54:42
Speaker
um and From all the agents I've spoken to and for what I know about publishing, especially in the UK, agents are investing in the author more than they're investing in. They're investing their time in nurturing you as an author to have a career which they will in turn profit off because every time they they make money by selling your books. For the most part, it seems like a very healthy and well thought out relationship.
00:55:07
Speaker
It does seem a lot less transactional, doesn't it? Yeah. Yeah. that I can't remember if you mentioned this or not, but the other thing they do is, um and especially after your first book, you know, maybe your your original book deal, you've put the book out where it's multiple ago and you've you've done the second book, now you need to write something new. They act as your kind of like first point of call for like brainstorming ideas before you commit to writing anything, which might not, you know, they they're like, I don't think that's going to sell or like,
00:55:37
Speaker
Yes. You know, maybe we could try some of this or they're just, they're always doing editorial. They're always like giving you feedback on your ideas before you need to commit to like fully writing something. Yeah. They're your business partner really. Yeah. They are. If you're taking it seriously as a business and you're in traditional publishing and you need to interact with all these big scary editors.
00:55:57
Speaker
and they are your business partner. They're there to help you. You help them. they They're equal. They're probably the only other person that's the most invested in your book apart from you. Yeah. No one's more invested than you. The editor probably is invested because they want to make good impression, but ah ah contrary to popular belief, editors don't, um unless they're like quite high up, actually make like a percentage on the book they've sold necessarily. So they're more like working inside their company to make sure they're picking up good projects as opposed to necessarily you as a brand, it depends what kind of deal you get, etc. So the person I would say that most obviously is engaged with your career and how well you do as a writer is your agent.
00:56:35
Speaker
yeah Yeah, the editor is invested in your book by book, yeah whereas your agent's invested in your career yeah as a whole. Also on ah on a personal level as well, they they are just absolutely there for you. Therapist, yeah. yeah free therapy The amount of times I've rang Joe, like when I first got published, and I had a couple of like really horrible reviews because I made that mistake of reading my own reviews.
00:57:00
Speaker
And like, I remember ringing Jo and being like, Jo, this is terrible. Everything's gone to shit. And she was just like, it's okay. She really had my back. You know, like. Yeah, exactly. They're just there for you. They are great people. It's so good when you're writing something and you think this is the worst. I've been asked to pitch stuff. This is awful. You're just writing. You're like, I can't do this. I'm just going to become a chicken farmer instead. I'm excited. I've actually just driven past these people selling some eggs to rear. And that's what I'm going to do. I'm just going to, and your agent will talk you off the ledge.
00:57:30
Speaker
I'm like, okay, let's just calm down. Yeah, no, it's great. it's If you've got good agent, that's the good relationship. But to wrap things up, the last one we had on the honorable mentions list is, any agent is better than no agent at all. Yeah, the bad one, yeah. A dangerous school of thought. It really is, yeah. Like we're talking about mostly good agent, and I'd say the majority of agents are good. I think what's interesting when we've, I've looked into this before, like we don't necessarily, you don't have to like pass a test to become an agent or do an agency degree.
00:58:07
Speaker
or do like any sort of, yeah, there's a BTEC and being an agent and you just do it. I think you're an agent. That's not really how it works. There are lots of different types of agents, different types of agencies. In some ways, anyone can set up as an agent. That's quite a generalization, but they kind of can. You want to make sure that, you know, any agents that you're looking at or speaking to are signed up to various accredited bodies. You can also look them up usually on things like Society of Authors or Jericho or You know, this there's various different places you can look online to check that they're in line with you. I'm talking about UK ones, like in particular, I don't know necessarily about other countries. um Yeah. And also just to be honest, even if maybe you're just not a right fit with an agent or like I've had two agents and my first agent was not a bad agent. She was not. and But she was quite new. I signed with her when she was quite new and she started to move into the magical middle grade space and nonfiction.
00:59:03
Speaker
and it was not where I was going. So we had a frank discussion and I moved to Lucy and me and Lucy like have very similar tastes and we're moving in the same direction even though I also signed up with her early but it's a few we're a few years in now and we just have grown in the same direction. Yeah that's good.
00:59:19
Speaker
Yeah. So it's not even necessarily like, I'm not talking even just about, but please do be aware, oh my gosh, about really awful agents that are not looking out for your best interests. um Just sometimes not having, though you need to think about the relationship you want with your agent. Yeah. And it's a small industry. If you ask around, you can, you know, you you'll you'll be able to get a sense of, you know, what people, who people are, what they want, what their,
00:59:44
Speaker
what they're um you know their goals are and how they kind of approach the whole the whole situation. so yeah But yeah, like I think for the most part, I've had plenty of authors on the podcast who have had preview like the agent they're currently with is not the agent they they were originally with. And for the most part, most of the time it's it's like it's a no bad feelings kind of thing. its you know It was maybe a mistake, the the the original thing. they They weren't quite on the same wavelength and then they didn't they after the first book didn't sell, which happens a lot. yeah A lot of people get published on their second book, with not the book that they sign with their agent with. Melissa yeah didn't sell her first book that she signed with an agent. um Yeah, a lot of the time it's just, you know if that book doesn't sell, they'll have a talk like talk about what they want to make next. And maybe like with you, Melissa, the agent wants to, is kind of leaning in a certain age range or a certain genre, whereas the author is
01:00:43
Speaker
wants to go in a different direction. And like, it just makes sense at that point to pathways and say, Oh, okay. Well, um I think maybe this, this isn't going to work. So it's probably better if we just don't waste time trying to kind of compromise her.
01:00:56
Speaker
Yeah, exactly. So there's there's a million different reasons without even going into the bad reasons of just why sometimes if you're you don't want to be wasting time in what is already a really slow um industry is what I always think. And it's horrible having to, people literally call it breaking up with your agent, like it's dating. Yeah, it's horrible. It's horrible having to break up with your agent. And it's horrible for them as well if they have to have a chat with you generally or if they're, say, moving agencies and can't necessarily take you with them. Like, there's so many reasons and it doesn't mean, oh, it's because I'm a rubbish writer if they get rid of me and it's not like that. um But yeah, you've got to think to yourself as well, having an agent that may be, if you like as an example, I know somebody who has an agent and that's quite a large agent and ah doesn't necessarily have the editorial time anymore to spend with clients and they probably want a little bit more editorial input. So it's just not quite the right relationship.
01:01:50
Speaker
for them. So they're going to moot they're going to move away from that agent and break up with that agent and find a more editorial agent because that would work better for them, especially where they are in their writing career. Yeah, it happens all the time. But yeah, having i think sometimes you think having no agent is worse than having an agent. But I will say the thing I really missed when signing with an agent is all the competitions you can enter I really miss them. And then you have no agent. It's like, Oh my gosh, look at all these opportunities. There are opportunities. Just different opportunities. That's all. Yeah, that's true. Um, I think that, I think that just about rounds it off. Um, let's, uh, finish up with, have you guys added anything new to your to be read lists? Yeah, usually.
01:02:39
Speaker
yeah we like Is this like a silence of, I'm scared to say how much I've added to my TBR or is this a silence of? So i I started reading the institute. So technically it's like come off my TBR and I've read like a whole 30 pages, but I feel like it's still on the TBR because I've not even got past what will probably be the sample. Yeah. Okay. and um Yeah, I started reading the institute by Stephen King. I'm also actually, I'm doing the thing where you read two books at once because I'm a rebel.
01:03:09
Speaker
I am reading Miss Bourne. I've read like five chapters and it does feel very dystopian-y. So I feel like it is a good gateway for me. So I am doing that as well, but I just needed a little fantasy rest because it takes out of me like in a good way, it's good for me. It's like exercise.
01:03:33
Speaker
like I'm doing it. I am reading it. So I kind of have two that I'm dithering between. But yeah, I've just started reading the Institute by Zuman King and then yeah, Miss Bond by Brandon Sunson. Okay, nice. Naomi? and Yeah, I read the one that was on my TBR last episode. I think I talked about Lady Macbeth by Ava Lee. And I read that. I read that like a couple of days ago. I thought it was amazing. I really liked her writing style. i love when and is you know I love books that are kind of like a cross between literary and genre reading or commercial fiction, sorry.
01:04:12
Speaker
And then I felt this struck the chord really nicely. And I've got to be honest, and I was ill at school when we read Macbeth. So I never actually read Macbeth. And I've read Lady Macbeth. I'm like, how is she not the main character? Like what the hell was Shakespeare thinking?
01:04:30
Speaker
what happened in the original yeah Now I'm wondering, do I need to like read Macbeth? I don't know, just to compare the two. So possibly that might be going on my TBR. I don't know. That feels like that'd be quite the um the challenge. I'm not sure if I'm up for it. Yeah. I mean, you could see if the there's any, it's on any theaters. and you You could watch it. Or you could, yeah. Wasn't there a Denzel Washington played Macbeth recently? Yeah.
01:04:57
Speaker
Oh, did he really? Okay. I feel like I've heard Macbeth is also a play. so yeah Yeah, I've heard it's a play. Sometimes it's not actually a book. its
01:05:09
Speaker
um I haven't really added anything to my to my list because I've been moving and I'm still kind of exhausted from all of that. But my copy of tomorrow and tomorrow and tomorrow has arrived. So I will be reading that very soon. I've just started that actually. I've got i'm like two pages in. Oh, we read it in Book Club. Oh, nice. I love the cover. The cover so as yeah yeah is Yeah, it's a stunning cover. I feel like that is an example of good marketing. I can't imagine she got her cover and Ranker Agent was like, I hate this.
01:05:39
Speaker
what's going on here with all this incredibly beautiful rainbow film on an an amazing ah hardback that's going to have special editions. Oh, no, thank you. Yeah. No, I think she was probably quite pleased. Yeah. Yeah. it will And that's probably going to set a whole new style that we're going to see trickle down in the next few years of new books. Awesome. Well, that wraps it up and we'll be back on the next episode, whenever that may be.
01:06:06
Speaker
Thanks for putting up with our nonsense for another episode. To stay tuned to everything we're up