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S4.E5 - Book launches, Marketing and Publicity
88 Plays17 days ago
Melissa and Naomi walk us through everything they learned and experienced with the releases of the debut novels and reflect on how differently they approach the publicity and marketing of their books now.
- Naomi Gibson, author of Every Line of You, Game Over Girl
- Melissa Welliver, author of The Undying Tower, My Love Life and the Apocalypse, Soulmates and Other Ways to Die
- Jamie Greenwood, creator & host of the Write and Wrong Podcast
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Transcript
Introduction and Toxic Characters
00:00:00
Speaker
Do you reckon Christian Grey is different characters? Whoa! You had it here first. I'm so finished it. After every episode was like, oh my gosh, I'm so angry at these toxic characters. Like, she'll have more food in my mouth, press next episode. Because I loved it, but obviously I hate it. This is so much fun. Because this is my Malfoy Hermione family. Yes! She shouldn't have done that. I'm trying to make Neville happen. It's too wholesome.
00:00:27
Speaker
two da like my what'
00:00:36
Speaker
but But first things first.
Guessing Game: One-Star Reviews
00:00:41
Speaker
Guess the book from the one star review. Do you guys want an easy one, a tricky one or an a near impossible one? I'm terrible. So it doesn't really matter either way. to give middle Middle for Diddle. Middle. Okay. What have we got for middle ones here?
00:00:54
Speaker
Uh, okay. Here's one. I have strong female character shelf here on Goodreads. This book is sorely attempting me to make a weak female character shelf too. Oh my God. Strong female character. that Is that not Hunger Games? But this book is, she said this book is sorely attempting me to make a weak female character shelf. Is it like Twilight? It is Twilight.
00:01:22
Speaker
that's gay You are really good. It just shows that I'm a mean person because I just immediately I'm like, ah yes, that's what I would say about this book. Not show me the good light. I only picked that one because it was for like such a famous book. ah Otherwise, you know, obviously it could have applied to so many things. But yeah, that was a very mean review of Twilight.
The Book Release Process
00:01:43
Speaker
um So on this episode, we are going to be talking about what happens when the book comes out, releasing a book from the author's point of view, the launch window, promotion, marketing, all that jazz.
00:02:00
Speaker
um So I'll start things off by saying that obviously I don't have much experience from this other than a lot of secondhand experience because on the right and wrong, what's my podcast called? On the right and wrong podcast, so most authors ah who who come on as guests have recently published something. um And that means that they probably finished writing it or editing it about six months prior and are already deep in the next thing. So my One thing I do know about when you get into the promotion cycle, the marketing cycle is that a lot of the time the authors are thinking back to a book that they haven't really thought much about for about six months because they're doing something new already and that's how long it takes to ah publish something through the traditional with physical print run routes.
00:02:51
Speaker
um I think that's it that's about right, guys. have you When you guys have been talking about or like promoting novels when they come out, have you had that kind of moment where you're like, oh, I've got to think back to the novel that I haven't looked at for a while? Yeah.
00:03:10
Speaker
I feel like no one knows my novel worse than me sometimes. It just feels like I've read it so many times. But yeah, I can think of books I've read once. I'm not a re-reader of books at all. And I can remember parts of those books. like I can remember stuff in the Hunger Games way better than stuff I've written, which is actually stupid. That's quite funny. Yeah, yeah i I definitely don't. do i do you Do you have quite good memory Naomi?
00:03:33
Speaker
Um, I did for book one because I spent like a couple of years doing it myself. Right. But sorry, I remember that fine, but book two, not so much. It was funny. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. It depends how long you spend on it. That's pretty true. Yeah. I think that's funny. Because on a more of a time crunch with the second book. So i say yeah, with a first book, you definitely remember it better.
00:03:54
Speaker
I guess also when you're in the like when you're on a contract, when you're in the system and you have your editor working on it, maybe your agent's doing a bit on it as well. And you have other people doing editing as opposed to when it's when it was just you and you're doing the full redraft, the full like development edit basically. You've read that book way more times than you will have with the team around you.
00:04:17
Speaker
Yeah, for
Title Changes and Marketing Impact
00:04:18
Speaker
sure. Yeah. That's true. If you're trusting your team, you're not, re it like you'll reread paragraphs or sentences, but you're not necessarily reading it like page by page like a reader. Whereas I think if you first write it, you're trying to read it like a reader, which sounds very stupid, but you know what I mean. Yeah. I went to a launch once with this author who had about five or six books out and she it was quite a big crowd actually there was like maybe 40-50 people there um and she had a book and she was like so this is about and then she literally just blanked and she was like what's my main character called again and she had to open the book that she was holding and look at the first page and she was like oh yeah okay and I just thought that was so funny because so but she's obviously like got a book out her year she's in the thick of writing something else and she was just like wait why am I here tonight what are these people in my book called? That's so relatable. I'm actually going to name a name because she has spoken about this at a couple of events I've seen her at. So, Allewyn Hamilton once said that like when she was going through her books, her um Rebel of the Sands trilogy, for ages it was saved on her computer in a folder called something like The Sandbook, something similar to that, like something that is not the title. And she said it took her ages to remember the title because her team helped to come up with the proper title and she didn't have like full title for And every time someone says she'll be like, which book is? yeah yeah That's the title, which I think is also so relatable because I referred to Love Life, which was my first trad one as the, oh, what was it called? The Sleeping Earth. That was it. to See, I'm forgetting the original title. I did refer keep referring to it as the sleeping earth, especially to like family and friends who were asking what's going on with the book, because it takes like two years. I was referring to it as the sleeping earth for ages. And then of course it comes out and I'm like, oh, I've really got to start calling it the proper title.
00:06:10
Speaker
I call my first book Henry for like, I still call it Henry actually. Yes, that's true. Although at least Henry is in the title of some of the foreign editions. That's true. Also sometimes like the title gets changed so far down the line and you've already seen like um three or four different iterations of the title and they're probably like tagged in emails and stuff. So you're always going to keep referring it to the first one until it's solidified with whatever the final one is.
00:06:39
Speaker
Yeah, that's true. I went through a few title changes actually for every line of view. So my original title was I Henry. And when my book sold to the US, Scholastic didn't like that title at all. And because they own Chicken House,
00:06:57
Speaker
Um, they basically said, we're going to change this title chicken host and have a choice. So we came up with another title called, um, you were made for me, I think. And then literally two weeks later, a book got announced called you were made for me. that that's pretty cute and So we went back to the drawing board and came up with every line of view. And, um, I was fighting the whole time for I Henry because um I really liked that and it was such a nod to loads of sci-fi stuff, but I think the fact that it was sci-fi was what Scholastic didn't like about it. um They wanted it to sound more. They wanted to market it more. Yeah, exactly. but the Every line of view works so well.
00:07:39
Speaker
It's a really good title, actually. It's a really good title. This is the problem, isn't it? that The title comes in where it's on such a title tangent, but um the title, like, is something that when you know a book is called that, you're like, yeah, of course, I remember I was put off reading in The Hunger Games for years because of the title because I thought it sounded stupid. It's interesting. The Hunger Games. It's like, yeah, in a tough world where they're starving. I'm like, wow, how original.
00:08:00
Speaker
something And then I was reading what it was about and I was thinking, it's a battle royale, why are they calling it the hunger? And I just thought it was really silly title. Now, of course, it has to be the title. Yeah, that's the best possible title. It's so funny, isn't it? When you look through the shelves and you see some kind of actually quite boring titles and you realize, oh, that only fits because it's in the marketing package of the cover and the hype. Now I get it. But yeah, it's funny, isn't it?
00:08:22
Speaker
I think you can make anything work because the the thing itself, if it's good enough, will like change the name to be good. like I don't think in isolation, the Hunger Games is a particularly good name. But once you've read it, or seen it, or whatever, you're like, oh no, well obviously it makes sense. It makes real sense.
00:08:42
Speaker
I've always thought this about the killers, the band. And I was like, just think it's, I've always thought it's a terrible name for a band, like a really bad name. But I don't think of that when I hear the killers, like someone says, oh, the killers, obviously I think about the songs and I think about the brand and stuff.
Realities of Book Promotion
00:09:00
Speaker
So so I didn't think how bad it is anymore. But like in isolation, I'm like, terrible name for a band. Who thought of this?
00:09:09
Speaker
Let's get, what were we talking, what were we supposed to be talking about? Not titles. We're releasing the book. And releasing whether we remember the title is how we came down the travel hole. Okay, so let's do this the more fun way and go back in time again and think about when you guys released your debuts. Let's start with Naomi this time. What What was it like releasing your debut novel? And I know that we've talked about this on the other podcast, about like how different you treat kind of releasing a novel now versus when you did your debut one. But what was it like releasing your your debut novel? What are the kind of steps of marketing and stuff? What were your expectations like? Okay, I think by the time that I i got to August 2021, I was
00:09:55
Speaker
so ready for it because it was COVID. um It had been moved twice already because of COVID. So it was supposed to come out like six months earlier and it didn't. um So by the time August 2021 rolled around, I was so ready for it to be on a shelf. um And it was actually, I just, I remember waking up, this is so lame, I remember waking up and being like, it's my birthday. And I was just really, really excited um that my book was out and I found a bunch of bookshops, they had it in, I went to go inside and it was just a really like validating experience publication day. I really, really enjoyed it.
00:10:39
Speaker
and In terms of the build-up to it, so because I got moved, I did have quite a lot of and marketing meetings in my build-up, but they happened quite early on. So I had a lot of time with with Jazz and Laura who were in the chicken house ah marketing and PR team, and and they were like, we're going to do this and this for you, we're going to do that and that and that. And they'd organized this Instagram read-along a couple of weeks after ah publication day.
00:11:09
Speaker
And, um, it was quite surreal actually logging onto Instagram and seeing my, just scrolling my feed and seeing my book cover everywhere. Um, it, it was a really well executed marketing plan, uh, for that I would say. Um, and then we tried to do a TikTok one as well, because TikTok was kind of kicking off for books around sort of yeah September time that year.
00:11:35
Speaker
and we did that. and um i one of the videos that someone so we sent We sent a bunch of copies out to loads of book talkers and one of them one of the videos got like 6,000 views and marketing were aware of it and they emailed me um and they were like, we're really, really pleased with this. You should be too. Go and have a look. And I was like, yes, this is cool. This is great. And and so that was really cool. And then I had that experience when not everyone liked it and they made videos about how much they didn't like it. So that was kind of a bit of a mixed bag really. um But yeah, generally I would say publication day and marketing leading up to it was really, really um pretty cool day.
00:12:18
Speaker
Okay. And what about you Melissa? Um, I'm thinking expectations, which is very different after you've done one book. So like specifically on book one expectations. When I sold the book traditionally, especially because I'd been sort of, I'd trialed this thing with a small publisher that had then gone under and it wasn't like a traditional deal. I was, I had really high expectations. So, and I don't mean like, I thought I'd get a billboard. I think people like are obsessed with these,
00:12:44
Speaker
but quite old-fashioned really, like, oh, it'll have a newspaper ad or a billboard. the say It's not 1922. Like, obviously, I wasn't expecting those sorts of things. but I was thinking like, oh my God, what if it's in like a, you know, I don't know, a newspaper roundup or what if it goes viral in a video or oh, I'm expecting, you know, ah hundreds, maybe thousands of advanced reader copies to go out. And then by the way, all these expectations are coming from me, not the publisher, because of course then after you've been editing, and so if you have your first marketing meeting,
00:13:16
Speaker
And they tell you things that they're thinking of. So um as an example, one of the things they really wanted to do was a sprayed edge and they designed this really pretty sprayed edge and they sent me in an email and they were like, yeah, so this will happen if a ah buyer puts in a large enough order for us to run this sprayed edge. yeah So it could be you know at the works, at Wardstones, at a supermarket, or it could even be for a book box, something like that.
00:13:43
Speaker
And obviously they were saying, we're going to try and push it to those ah people to try and get it sold. Well, that never happened. Because if anyone's thinking, I didn't get a sprayed edge, it never happened. So and that was something I was expecting to happen. I was like, well, obviously they've shown it me. So they wouldn't show it me unless it was going to happen. They probably only showed it me because they were confident it would happen. But you know, things happen. It's not their fault at all.
00:14:04
Speaker
and So things like that would happen where they'd say, we're going to try and do this. We're going to send it to these people. He gives a bit of information because we're going to try and get into this book roundup, whatever it may be. And they absolutely do send out your stuff, but at the end of the day, there's paid slots and non-paid slots ah that you hear all sorts of rumours about where they are, which I will not say. And also there's just people's tastes and et cetera. For instance, I got quite a good Waterstones buy-in, and I'm convinced, but I've never been told this is the reason, that it's because I remember just before it came out, um I got one of those, I don't know if anyone's ever seen these, on the Waterstones website, you get this thing that says, Waterstones says... It has like a little quote.
00:14:44
Speaker
Yep. And it's usually from a Wardstones buyer. and Now it doesn't need to necessarily be one of their national buyers. It can be maybe um someone who's in quite a large one of their shops and they're in charge of some of the stock. I got somebody, somebody just picked up the book and enjoyed it and I got one of those Wardstone says things. And I remember a few of my friends who were already published sent me it when they noticed it and they were like, this is a really big deal. And I was like, is it?
00:15:08
Speaker
don't know. And then I did have, I noticed on my world statement, which obviously I got like 20 years later, and that I had a really good Wardstones buy-in and I was on some tables in Wardstones, luckily in a lot of Wardstones, and I always wondered, is it something to do with that? So you're definitely getting put forward for things, but I think the disappointment comes in, especially when you're so excited about the book. And of course your publisher is really excited and they are very hopeful you'll get picked for some of these things, but you're up against thousands of books.
00:15:33
Speaker
and And of course, you don't get picked for everything. And, you know, I was really disappointed not to be picked for those, but I know people that didn't have, I think everyone assumes that Wardstones buys at least one of every book in all 300 stores. That is not true. So whilst I was disappointed in some things, I found out I had, say, better buy in for that, or or I was picked for a supermarket deal.
00:15:55
Speaker
and Yeah, that's so cool. Amazing. Oh my gosh. And I expected that to result in thousands upon thousands of sales. Now that's obviously not what happened because often with supermarkets, they get a firm sale, which means they can't return the books for a much cheaper price.
00:16:10
Speaker
so it wasn't in thousands of books and I think it was like a four to six week deal so it disappeared quite quickly and that surprised me and it wasn't necessarily I wasn't being given the information I didn't know to ask and I think I was making a lot of assumptions based on what they were saying they were going to try and get for me So I think you do build up your part a little bit also, like around, you know, obviously book fairs, you're thinking, um I remember I read every year, here's all the fairs, and they're doing all these book deals over the table, shaking hands, and I'll have five foreign rights by the end of the week, because it's Frankfurt or
Challenges in Book Marketing
00:16:41
Speaker
whatever. And then of course, that doesn't happen.
00:16:43
Speaker
You're like, how did they forget to take my book? What possibly could have happened? So I think the competitive nature of marketing is really easy to forget because obviously you're so focused on your book and they are putting out two places. We're not talking, like obviously I'm just joking about a billboard. You might get a billboard if you've got a huge deal and they have a very large marketing budget. I'm talking about sort of a mid list book, what they're going to try and get for you. And they absolutely will try and get these things. A lot of it's based on look and timing, who they're talking to, et cetera.
00:17:12
Speaker
And I think you just forget that you're competing against all the other books for that space, especially in the kidlet space. Well, there's very few, quote unquote, column column inches. Again, it's a bit of an old fashioned term, but I think that's what I it just i just to forgot. I was competing against other books because I was like, my book is great. i Yeah. And you're you're not just competing against all the books that are coming out. You're competing against all of the classics that are never not going to be you know, the amount of space on the on the table in like the middle of the YA section gets yeah smaller every year as a new classic. Like yeah Hunger Games is never not going to be on that table. like Twilight is never not going to be on that table. Exactly. So like, yeah, the basically what I'm saying is bookshops need to get more tables. And it's annoying because Twilight is almost 20 years old now. Yeah. Yeah. That's the thing is when you realise how old these things are, just put Twilight on the not bad-ass female main character table as we discussed at the beginning. Don't do that. I love you Twilight.
00:18:23
Speaker
I mean, a lot of places do you have it like a classics section, but it's it never covers YA. It's always like um literary stuff or it basically it's anything sent from previous two centuries.
00:18:40
Speaker
Yeah, i it's such a hard, this is this is one of the hardest things about books and especially in children's. And like, to some degree, YA, but I think it's even worse in middle grade is the saturation of like, well, there's already a lot of great children's books and parents want their children to read. Well, parents often want their children to read or to they want to read to their children the books that they loved when they were younger.
00:19:04
Speaker
which doesn't leave much room for new you know books to come out and to kind of break into the zeitgeist in that way. You guys both touched on a lot of stuff which I wanted to just circle back on. You both published through the same publisher so I imagine this will be kind of similar but um it's interesting I think for people listening Unless you've done it, you don't really know what happens in marketing meetings. So what's the kind of stuff that is brought up and talked about and arranged in marketing meetings and what is your input in that?
00:19:40
Speaker
Our input, that's the scary bit. If any. I feel like you stuck go to a marketing, you've usually found like, um let's say you've joined a debut group. And unless you're being published at the very beginning of January, other people have usually been through various parts of the process before you. And I feel like marketing meeting is the most common question that pops up in the debut groups, et cetera. Like I'm having a marketing meeting next week. What do I ask? What is my input? What do I ask for?
00:20:08
Speaker
I feel like that's a common one. I don't know. I feel like I had a lot of questions and didn't ask them. What about you, Naomi? Did you ask any like specific questions? um i I think now I would ask more specific questions. I think what i when I was a debut, i didn't there was a lot that I didn't know.
00:20:30
Speaker
am And I think, like, I'm not trying to be rude or anything, but I think they got away with a lot because I didn't know. And there was a lot that I didn't know to ask, like, what's our budget? What are you going to do for me? You know, and I didn't ask those questions. um So they got off quite easy. It was a nice meeting for them. Yeah, exactly. I didn't really challenge them on anything. And I think now I know the rub, I would. But yeah they did, I think they did do a lot for me, though.
00:20:58
Speaker
And I think, you know, they were trying to get me into newspapers. Oh, ah we did get into a book box, actually, and that was pretty huge. um And that meant that I got a sprayed edge run, which you were talking about because someone was going to buy it and enough copies to make them run viable. Yes. So that was how I got my sprayed edge.
00:21:18
Speaker
and So that we talked about that and in the meeting. And then, and also if anyone doesn't know, getting in a book box is huge because they're non-refundable. So the company who runs the book box puts in an order for their entire ah list of subscribers, let's say it's a thousand.
00:21:35
Speaker
and they buy a thousand copies of your book and they can't return them to the publisher. So the publisher loves getting in the book box. Anyway, and so so that was things that were covered like that. And then they were talking about what newspapers they'd sent copies to. um And obviously the Instagram push that we did was was mentioned and I was going to host like a read along and they were talking about how um it should be hosted from my page, not their page because They wanted people to follow me, not them, and that kind of thing. and And they were asking me, what are you going to do? i What are you doing in this relationship? yeah And I think at that point, um I was like screaming, shouting from every social media platform I could get my hands on.
00:22:22
Speaker
um And that that is kind of all you can do as ah as an author. Like that is a big part of it. And I think Jamie, you had just kicked off the right and wrong podcast. And I think and I recorded with you and I was like, I've done this interview. I managed to get like another couple of um little interviews. um They got me like an article in, in one of the writing magazines. So I had to write that about writing for children. Um, yeah, so it it was, it was, it was mostly them, I would say. Um, but now I think I would ask more specific questions. Um, like what's our budget, I think would be a big one. And most of the time I'd be expecting the answer. We don't have one. Yeah. I would be surprised if they answered it, even that directly.
00:23:12
Speaker
Yeah. Well, it's not about the budget. It's about the experience and journey along the way to the budget. Yeah. i i made no i know yeah that's so true I do remember I asked,
00:23:26
Speaker
now that you're talking about evading questions, I do remember I asked, um how many are you looking to sell for this to be a success?
Marketing Strategies and Author Involvement
00:23:35
Speaker
And they wouldn't answer my question. Yeah, that's a really tricky one to get answered. Yeah.
00:23:41
Speaker
Yeah, because I guess if the math is math thing, it should be selling out your advance and then a certain amount beyond that. Yeah. Is what you would think that they're looking to sell. But I guess realistically with with a book, especially like if they're trying to nurture an author as a brand, the the sort of unicorn answer is, well, we'd like this to outsell the advance, then become a bestseller and then continue to make us money indefinitely until the rest of time.
00:24:11
Speaker
until you die. Exactly, yeah. Like Harry Potter. Harry Potter sales just always, it's always selling. And whenever something new comes out, like a movie or a game or something, book sales go up. Yeah. It depends on the book as well. Like I had a marketing meeting not too long ago and it's a very, like it's an upper YA type of book.
00:24:36
Speaker
I can't say anything about this obviously so I won't talk about it anyway. and So it's not a YA book and I remember the marketing, I met a couple of people on the marketing team and they have ah not been necessarily prepped on this specific book yet but they knew it was YA so they were talking a little bit about school visits and how important school visits are with children's books and I think actually me and the editor and also my agent's always on this, she likes to come on the marketing meetings um said, actually I'm not sure this is a school visit book. um I'm not quite sure this is the vibe. I can't wait till this is announced and people might listen back to this and go, oh my god, school visits for this book. but It's not quite on the school visit vibe. So I have definitely got better.
00:25:20
Speaker
ah The first time, marketing to me, as I say, you think billboards, you think, you think, because you don't really know what you're doing. You're not really sure what to expect. You kind of aren't very creative in what you think can happen. I think this time around, and when I've had my second book and Undying Tower and stuff like that, which was with a smaller publisher, and I was definitely more focused, especially with YA, on what are we doing online. It wasn't really about budget. I was like, who are we sending it to online? Can we switch, out you know, i'm I'm friendly with these TikTokers and they're doing quite well. Can we send it to them?
00:25:50
Speaker
that kind of thing. I remember with Undying Tower, I asked for the, they usually send it to you anyway, but and I asked for early for the digital version. So like the version that goes to Kindle ah before it was out because I was chatting to a couple of TikTokers who like I was friendly with and have a good following and they wanted to swap books. So they sent me their book that they were releasing and I sent them mine. And so I just asked the publisher, can I have this? And I, so I took that over in a way. It wasn't necessarily that the publisher wouldn't do it for me, but I had the relationship.
00:26:20
Speaker
So I was like, I'll just do it. It's like a fun exchange. were just kind of And then and they mentioned my book on their channel. It's Bill Wood, who's just released Let's Split Up. um So he mentioned his book on my book on his channel. And I'm reading his book. It's really good. um and It was just like a nice, like natural exchange. It wasn't like, hey, we're going to pay you to advertise this, but it was just a natural, we're friendly, let's swap books.
00:26:44
Speaker
It'll be fun type thing. He said online he was looking for books for holiday or something. So we just kind of struck up a conversation. And so I think I would definitely look a lot more for what can we be doing online. ah One of the marketing things can sometimes be frustrating if you do have a really hammered marketing department.
00:27:04
Speaker
is things that are time sensitive and also take up a lot of time like sending out books so when you get to know people in your debut groups and stuff you get to know loads of authors you might want to get say an author quote for the front of your book um depending on your timing and stuff it can be really difficult because obviously you want to get that you want the quote on the front of the book. I didn't get given proofs. I was just getting final copies. So the quote had to be done on the basis of like a printout of the book. And I had to essentially ask friends, can you turn this around really quickly?
00:27:36
Speaker
Yeah, it's horrible. It's kind of horrible, isn't it? And you kind of have to do that yourself because you have the personal relationship. Your publisher will absolutely, I've been approached by publishers um to read books and possibly give a quote, maybe put a picture on my social media, etc. They do absolutely approach you, but the personal touch, obviously, they're going to be a bit more willing to do it for you if you're asking personally. So I think that's something that can be frustrating. And then if you get and say, yeah,
00:28:02
Speaker
You're kind of having to remind the publisher to send it out because they might have a huge to-do list. It's not necessarily their fault, like they just might have this huge to-do listing, you're not at the top of it, but you also like you're also aware that they need this quote by like four weeks time and people are really busy.
00:28:19
Speaker
So you're like, please, I've secured the time. So sometimes there's stuff I'm happy to take on myself. And I think you get a better response. There's other stuff that sometimes I'm a terrible control freak. So I do get frustrated if I feel like I've lined something up and it won't necessarily work in the publisher's timeline. Again, might not necessarily be their fault. They might just be like, well, we can't meet that timeline. So we're going to have to let go of this opportunity. And that can be frustrating.
00:28:44
Speaker
who As you guys have, when you go through this like second time, third time, do you feel like you do want to do more marketing and promotion sort of on your own initiative, like look out for, like reach out to podcasts or like um websites that let you do like articles and things? Yeah.
00:29:07
Speaker
I don't know. I wish I didn't. I'm on the fence. So for me, book one got a lot of marketing, I think. um Book two didn't get anywhere near as much. and And I didn't push it as much either online because I absolutely exhausted myself. I was going to say, you're tired by that point. I was shattered. And, and you know, interestingly,
00:29:37
Speaker
it sold the same. um So I think that comes down to release date, I think, because so book one came out in August in the middle of a pandemic, and then book two came out in January.
00:29:51
Speaker
and like 18 months later when people had just had lots of Christmas vouchers and Christmas money and and they were looking to start kick off their new year ah with, I'm going to read dirty books this year kind of deal with themselves. So they go to bookshops and buy books and and I got really lucky. So when I look comparatively at sales, they're the same, like it's it was actually people take like 100 copies. Game of a Girl sold the same um without much push just because of its release date, I think. So i I don't know. I think if i was gonna if I ever get lucky enough to have a book three, I think I would be pushing for a January release date again because it does a lot of the heavy lifting for you.
00:30:37
Speaker
Yeah. I've heard that it's pretty good so in general. And also obviously part of why they don't often push second books a lot is the idea is that you've developed a bit of a brand by that point, I guess. So some people are looking out for, and they follow you. and so yeah Yeah. A lot of those sales would have been people that enjoyed the first book and want to read more of that. Like um I saw Bella Mackey just had a new book out and I imagine that'll do very well given how wildly successful her previous novel was. yeah when it comes to ah As far as I know, you don't get much say in the release date of your novel if you're signing with a publisher. you Because they're basically fitting you in to a schedule that's probably already packed.
00:31:26
Speaker
Yeah. I mean, they can move. I'm not talking about if you're late with edits or if something happens, but I mean, they do ask you a little bit. One of the first questions I got asked, it's like starting a new job and they immediately say, do you have any holidays booked? It's like they do ask, do you, like I was asked, like, do you have any big life events coming up? Like, you know, they're checking. Are you going to give birth on publication day? Are you about to move to a different country?
00:31:50
Speaker
are you like that asking is there anything big that you can foresee coming and if it's no they do basically just give you a date i don't know what they would say if the answer was yes probably they would still just give you a date and make a note like put an asterisk but they they do kind of ask but yeah it's pretty much up to them so you could say i am busy february through december give me j january
00:32:16
Speaker
It looks like I'm going to be out of all countries through these months, unfortunately.
00:32:27
Speaker
um What was it like? the Obviously, you're very excited in the build up to a book release, um especially with the debut and then like when the book actually comes out. is there And this is more on like a sort of mental health level. Is there like a after the book is out?
00:32:45
Speaker
Does it suddenly drop off or does it kind of like the excitement linger? no Publication day blues. Is that a thing?
Emotional Aftermath of Book Releases
00:32:55
Speaker
Yes, it is a thing. For me, for book one, I didn't get it until like six months later because so I did, every line of you did really, really well. It sold to 11 territories and it sold for film and TV. um Because it sold to those territories, I got invited to some events um in those countries. So like I got invited to Toulon in France and I got invited to Barcelona and Spain and i'm those events. but So I think my book came out in August and i and they were booked in for like November and early December. So I had them to look forward to.
00:33:33
Speaker
And so I think they kind of pulled me through. And so I didn't get my blues until like January, I think. um But ah so, ah so at the same time, um I work full time and my job absolutely went down the pan around that time. And I ended up having four months off work on stress. And I think the culmination of my job deteriorating and the fact that I was absolutely shattered Um, basically meant that I had, I had four months off work and I don't think it's a coincidence. I think I probably still would have, um, if I didn't have a book out the previous year, but, um, it is just something to be aware of. Like you can absolutely knacker yourself. Um, yeah. The burnout is so real from saying yes to everything. Absolutely. Yep. Did you, did you feel the blues Melissa with any of your books?
00:34:28
Speaker
Yeah, like all of them. And from for me, it was so like, unless you are, I think the last time I saw a midnight release or something was like fourth wing and and then iron flame. thing yeah so and So, you know, like, I feel like when we were younger, there was like a bit of an epidemic of midnight releases, you know, queuing up to get the next book. That just doesn't seem to happen anymore. And the reason I bring that up is and Often, you'll be waiting for publication day. You'll be like, oh, when's my publication day? And someone will send you a photo of your book in a shop two and a half weeks before release day. And they bought it. And number one, you're told, and by the way, I'm not actually sure if this is true, you are told any sales before your release day doesn't include pre-orders because they only process after release day. If they buy it in a shop and it goes through a till before release day, it doesn't count towards your sales figures for the first week.
00:35:19
Speaker
Which is annoying. and know I thought it did. It records the sale, but apparently it doesn't consider it. So like, let's say you sold 200 copies before release day, because they're just like in shops, and then you had like 100 pre-orders and maybe people bought 50. You'd only show us 150 sales in your first week. It's really annoying. That is so annoying.
00:35:39
Speaker
and Yeah, I don't really understand why, but so you know, I'm there waiting to see my book. And then first of all, other people have seen it first. Like handjacks are shying off a little bit and they're excited. You know, they're saying, oh, how great. Now I saw a couple of people recently saying they were quite shocked there, but was there any two or three days in advance? And I know they try and hold it off for this reason I'm saying, because they don't want it out too early. But yeah, I'm sure my book appeared a good couple of weeks before it came out.
00:36:05
Speaker
So that kind of took the shine off because I wanted to be, it sounds like I would be the first one to see it, but i yeah I didn't want people sending me saying they'd already seen it. So then it felt like publication date was a nebulous thing. Like does it really matter because it's just going to come and it's already out because it's not like they're holding it back or anything or people, and also people aren't necessarily waiting for it in the way that you kind of hope they are because they don't know who you are. Like you're just a nobody. That's really depressing. But So I did definitely get bad publication date blues. And then with the second book, I think, like Naomi said, you end up doing a lot less. And then I definitely have a thing about a month before where I think I should have done more for this. Do you think I should have done more? And I had a bit of a panic about, you know, maybe if I'd done a bit more, there would be a bit more buzz around this book. I think about a month before is when essentially most people say there's not really a lot you can do now.
00:36:58
Speaker
like a month before is when you can't get into any more, you know, ah review spaces, you've run out of time for, you know, buy in for shops, etc. There's not a lot you can do the month before. And then also the month after can be really quiet. Because unless you are an instant bestseller or something,
00:37:15
Speaker
nothing's really happening. And even if your book is amazing, and it gets word of mouth, and then people start buying it takes a while for people to read it. Yeah, I remember i was checking like the day after publication day for like reviews. I just read it that quickly. Nobody. when I read it that quickly. Like, why am I checking that? But you do just kind of I think the fanfare is spread out a little bit as opposed to being all in one. And I don't know, I definitely got close publication blues for all my books. Was it less with the with the sequential books?
00:37:46
Speaker
um No, weirdly, no, even though I was expecting, obviously, and I wasn't as burnt out because I'd said no to more things. I was thinking, if I don't say yes to this, my book won't become a bestseller. Oh, it's horrible, that pressure, isn't it? Yeah. Here's the interesting English suggestion, because you guys have done this a few times now, and you you just mentioned, Naomi mentioned reviews earlier, and you've you've just mentioned reviews.
00:38:13
Speaker
What have you guys changed from like the debut to now how you kind of interact or like whether you look at reviews for your books or not? I don't know. Have you never looked at them? Oh no, I've looked at them. Yes. I've definitely used to look at them. Didn't used to mind too much. Found them a bit stingy, but I thought, yeah, it's fine. I can read them. And I must admit, I used to check. Like most days I would want to know. I would check on um Gardeners, which is a wholesaler.
00:38:44
Speaker
for books, which it's just this is the most stupid thing. You can go on there and it will have a rough digital like number of how many of your books are in stock. and I used to go on like daily in the month after I'd released a book to see has anyone bought any stock? Which is stupid because I don't even know how accurate that is. It's incredibly stupid. a lot of but A lot of people buy the books directly from the publisher anyway.
00:39:05
Speaker
It doesn't even mean anything. And yeah, reviews. I used to check more. Now I must admit, I just don't bother. It's not necessarily that I'm avoiding it and that I would say I would never look, but I just don't bother as much because it's not a space for me. So I don't need to know. Okay.
00:39:24
Speaker
Hmm. I agree. It's not something yeah you you have done your best, right? You have put in so much time in this book. It is your little baby i try dream. Someone agreed to publish it for some reason and they gave you money for it. That is, you know, and then when it it's done and it's published and it's printed and it's in people's hands, there is nothing you can do.
00:39:48
Speaker
And so to read reviews is just like basically beating yourself up because they're like, oh, I didn't like this bit and like that bit. I didn't like the writing. And it's like, well, I can't control any of that. I've got, and there's nothing I can do. I can't go and edit it now just to please you. You know, why? That's so true. It's too short. What's the point in reading? Yeah, exactly. What's the point in reading your reviews? And, and for me, um that video that um basically slagged off my book on TikTok. um she so That a bit ah video ended up going viral and so loads of people were going to, um what's the reading website called, Melva? Goodreads. Goodreads, thank you.
00:40:27
Speaker
li ga website we going to goodly and no ah Upvoting all of the negative um all the negative reviews and so no and I saw it happening in real time and I was like this is unreal and the only thing you can do is so I rang my agent and cried down the phone to her and we agreed that that was horrible um and I just after that I just stopped looking because it's like it gives me no joy it like you know what am I going to do I can't do anything about it I've got no control over it so just let it happen and just don't read them so yeah
00:41:01
Speaker
That's rough. Yeah. and obviously grim And obviously because we're human beings and for the same reason that all the news is bad is because we don't remember, you you f flick through and you're like, hmm, a nice review, whatever. And then you skip down and you find the bad review and that's the one that sticks in your head. That's the one you keep thinking about. You don't think about the nice five star review that someone else gave up.
00:41:24
Speaker
I know. Exactly. yes You so easily forget the good stuff, don't you? Yeah. Yeah. Hyperfixate on the bad stuff. Yeah. And it's interesting, like, so I've had my first ever foreign edition of the first book. Um, so Love Life's Come Out in Turkey. And I don't know if it's just, and obviously also I'm literally just to read this because I'm so sorry. I do not speak Turkish. I'm one of those stupid English people that just doesn't know any other the languages. And I just press translate post on Instagram.
00:41:51
Speaker
and have a quick look. And they've all been really, really nice about it. Not that I didn't get nice reviews for the first book when it came out in in English, but they seem to be like quite effusive about the book. I must admit that has dragged me back in slightly. So I'm being tagged in these things, all the publishers being tagged. I am having a quick look. And it's it was released about a month ago, six weeks ago, something like that. End of August, I think it was.
00:42:15
Speaker
um yeah And so that has been a nice experience and it does feel a bit deja vuis because I'm thinking, well probably the reason they're nice is because these are the people that the publisher probably sent the book to that they knew would be supportive and at least not right that it was absolutely trash you know. at the moment to rely on the translation a little bit. But yeah, it's been quite, that's been quite nice. It's been quite therapeutic. um You know, shout out to Turkey. I love them. I also love the UK readers, but Turkey.
00:42:44
Speaker
ah totally very nice I actually made it so you can't tag me in reviews now on Instagram. yeah that's very smart ah Because I don't, I don't want them coming to me. I'm so sorry. Like it's, it's so nice when you get a good one, but everything again, you will get a bad one and it's just not worth it. um So you can't. there should be It's like, it should be publishing etiquette is like, you can only tag the author if you're being nice. Like if if you're giving a good review, because there's just no point in tagging an author to give a bad review. Like yeah what are you trying to achieve here?
00:43:19
Speaker
Yeah, exactly. It's like, thanks for bringing that to my door. I know. It is. It's difficult, isn't it? Because once you know how the sausage is made, you're a lot nicer when you're eating the hot dog. Do you know what I mean? Like when I read the book now that I don't love. That is so weird. I've never heard that before. Is that a thing? I've never heard that before.
00:43:38
Speaker
When I read a book now that I don't love, I do not think I'm going to tell a you everyone that this is the worst book ever. Because I know how hard it was to write even if it sucks. So I'm not going to tell everyone. And I appreciateate i appreciate eating the hot dog more. Because I know how the sausage is made. I know it's really difficult. That's amazing.
00:44:00
Speaker
that's ah That's a fun phrase. I saw a video the other day um where the guy was basically saying, you can ignore, he said, if you're looking at a review website, only look at two star reviews and four star reviews because all of the others don't matter. That's really interesting.
00:44:19
Speaker
He was like, three-star reviews are for cowards. Five-star reviews are for people who either know the person creating this or like know something they're like too attached to this. And one-star reviews are for crazy people. And he's like, just look at all you want to do is filter by two-star and four-star. And those are the only reviews worth looking at. That makes sense. Yeah.
00:44:41
Speaker
a little He thinks two stars are the best reviews to look at. He was talking about food, but he was like, two stars are the best because you can tell that they wanted to give it one star. But they knew that there was like the food was too good for them to give it one star because there was he was like, you want to look specifically for ones that where they've had a bad experience in the restaurant, like it's taken ages or like the service was really bad. Because because if they've given it two star, you know they wanted to give it one star, but they they had to accept that the food was good.
00:45:11
Speaker
Right. Yeah. Yeah. That's so true. Review system and the five staff system. I mean, my God, that's already complicated enough.
Navigating Book Reviews
00:45:20
Speaker
And people having to say, no, no, you don't understand three staff for me as a reviewer is a really good score. And I'm sure it is. like, you know, how many five-star books have you really read? But again, this is why now I would never review. I've had conversations with authors who have said they've gone through, so they used to be avid readers, obviously they still are because they're writers, but they used to be avid readers that would also post on Goodreads. So they have maybe three, 400 reviews on Goodreads, and they've taken them down because they knew they were being quite mean on their reviews.
00:45:50
Speaker
And obviously now they're like meeting authors in real life and also realising it's quite hard. And the sort of stuff that you are mean on in your head where you might think, but that ah was poorly written on. What was that ending? But I just can't bring myself to say that online now.
00:46:04
Speaker
Yeah, I just can't do it because I know how tough it would have been for them to write it. Yeah, especially because like you say, everyone has a different metric. Like for me, yeah if I was being really realistic, if I wanted to create like a rating system that was personal to me, and I was like, this is true, 100% honest, like five is not enough, I would go to 10. And even then I'd be like, would would any book I've read be 10? Because to me, 10 out of 10 is this is perfection. Like, exactly you completed but like writing, you did it. Well done. And it's like realistically, nothing should ever be that really. So the idea that people give lots of five, like five star reviews is and it's you can argue like, Oh, well, I would have given it like 90% or something.
00:46:52
Speaker
and yeah Well, that's a problem with the system. Like five is not, it's it's it's kind of why I appreciate, I used to be really critical of Rotten Tomatoes because it's literally just a thumbs up thumbs down system. It's, it's, if it's above 60%, basically if you give it a six out of 10, that's fresh. if And if it's anything low, it's rotten, which means that I think Paddington bear two is like a hundred percent of Rotten Tomatoes. But all that means is that you don't know that everyone didn't give it six out of 10. So they're like, yeah, it's pretty average. Yeah, this this is the issue. And then one star is the lowest you can give on most websites. So to me, I would only go on and actually put on a one star review if I was furious with a book or it was offensive or something. Like that's the only reason I would go on and do that because it's not just that I'm rating a book, it's that I am telling the whole world whether to stay away from a book at one start. so It's yeah really tricky. So yeah, everyone has to, reviewers have their own space, everyone has their own metric, absolutely welcome to that metric, no issue at all. But i I do avoid it more now because as you say, it's just, there's no cohesion, it's not like everyone's agreeing, oh yeah, we'll work it this way and then we'll take averages, that's not what's happening.
00:48:06
Speaker
Yeah, it's, I mean, reviewing across anything is such a difficult, because the whole thing's subjective. And then it's like, yeah. So one star is going to be your, do not, like, I actively warn people from going near this. But then what does that make two stars, like, two stars what, like, it wasn't for me, but then three stars, like, this is just average, like whatever. Yeah, yeah exactly.
00:48:26
Speaker
It's like, yeah. Whereas some people are like, no, three-star is good. A lot of reviewers say three-star, especially reviewers who are reading like a hundred books a year, and a lot of them will say, no, three-star is like decent. This was a decent read. Yeah. I've heard that so many times. I'm like, yeah okay, whatever. I don't know. But someone telling me something is a decent read does not compel me to run to the bookshop and buy it. yeah No, that's it. But i I find as well, they my as and as a reader, I now don't look at the reviews either.
00:48:54
Speaker
I think I read the blurb and I think, is it for me or not? And I buy it or I try the sample on on Amazon if you're on Amazon. And it's like, you know, that that's how i that's how I pick books for myself now. I actually don't read the reviews anymore. That's true. It's been like walked in my head. I can't just take away from old reviews.
00:49:12
Speaker
it's For me, it's word of mouth. like Most books will be recommended to me. or i mean i run ah I speak to at least one person every week who chooses a desert an island book on my podcast, so I have a lot of access to people suggesting books to me. But yeah, i I'll rarely buy a book based on reviews. It'll be based on, do I know the author? Do I know the genre? What are other people saying about it? Not reviews necessarily, but like individuals.
00:49:38
Speaker
Yeah. Because I can gauge where someone's review is as an individual. Yeah. Which is obviously why TikTok has blown up because it's people who are reading books that they genuinely love. And then one minute they've got 200 followers and six months later they have a hundred K followers. And suddenly when they say, yeah, I really enjoyed this book. I'd love to talk to someone about it. They've got thousands of followers that are willing to go, yeah,
00:50:03
Speaker
I'll talk to you about this book in the DMs and in the comments section, absolutely. And that's obviously, it's basically word of mouth, but online, it's a very strange beast. It's interesting interesting. Well, we've gone wildly off topic, I imagine, but let's bring it back home. And I feel like this episode is like you two, do you guys have any advice for an author who is going through publishing for the first time, their debut novel is coming out, what advice would you give them based on like what you learned and like how you've kind of experienced ah the kind of releasing the book, the launch window, ways that they can prepare themselves or or like kind of um set their expectations at a healthy level?
Advice for Debut Authors
00:50:46
Speaker
um work out Work out what you're willing to give and don't go over it.
00:50:53
Speaker
um yeah If you work full time, work out how much time, how much extra effort you can you are prepared to put into marketing your own book because you can do everything and you can do nothing and you can be somewhere in the middle, but work out what's best for you because you can really, really harm yourself later on. and You can end up off on stress like me, so just be careful.
00:51:23
Speaker
Yeah, I think I'd like extend that to say, say yes to at least one of every type of marketing and then you'll work out what you enjoy. So I was talking to some friends recently who published in the last couple of years and they said they were glad in some ways, they said they said they wish they hadn't said yes to everything, they wish they'd said no more, which is absolutely true. But they said they were glad that they tried certain things that they wouldn't have tried otherwise because they worked out, oh, I actually really enjoy doing panel events and I didn't think I would do.
00:51:53
Speaker
Or, um you know, now I've realized I thought I'd be happy doing articles, but actually they really stress me out. So I'm going to say no to those in future. So there's a balance. I would say if it's something that you're not sure about, but you've never tried one, maybe try it once, but be willing to say to your publisher, just because I did that one event doesn't mean I'm going to do any more because I didn't like it.
00:52:14
Speaker
Yeah and I could tell you as someone who does a podcast where I talk to lots of authors and usually that usually I mean a lot of them I'm being contacted through the publicity person at a publishing house or a PR person but I also get individual messages from authors who are just fans of the show or like are looking to to kind of take the initiative and do more than it is already in their kind of marketing plan. And there's absolutely nothing wrong with, I'm more than happy to have an author come on outside of a launch window. Like it doesn't change and anything for me. Obviously, ideally you want to do all your publicity around your launch so that it all kind of builds on itself.
00:52:56
Speaker
But if you're, you know, if you've done a lot and you think, oh no, actually maybe ah I could do a bit more and it's it's it's not really too late, you're always going to get a bump. People are always interested to hear about um the thing that you've written and how you got to writing it and things like that. Yeah. I think like the launch window thing as just a separate issue with um marketing is the obvious reason being the easiest time, quote unquote, to get into a chart.
00:53:25
Speaker
is the first week your book comes out because it includes pre-orders. So you will be pushed to do quite a lot of stuff around the launch window. But as Jamie says, and to be honest, if you think of any book that you love that's become like a household name book, often they were not instant bestsellers. Instant bestsellers are books that have been bought on a hype promise because they are not being bought because people have read it and recommended it to other people. If something becomes a bestseller seven weeks later, it probably has been bought. Now, I'm not saying those other books are bad,
00:53:54
Speaker
I'm just saying it's built on hype because that's when they know they can get those pre-orders. So that's why the window of opportunity appears to be around publication day. But no, you're absolutely right. It actually can be anytime. Like a book is not just out for one day.
00:54:07
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, exactly. The book's out forever and in some ways it's, I've had people on who the book has been, you know, published a year prior and it's always interesting to chat to them and be like, so what's happened since, you know, what's going on this, that, the other. um Next episode we're going to talk about, we're going to get very mathematical and numerical and we're going to talk about finances and the breakdown of finances because that's something that is quite um obfuscated and like not a lot of people fully understand how um authors like the the amount of money that you are paid by an author that as an author is broken down and where that all comes from because it often comes from many different places um and then after that we we well we'll talk about what happens
00:54:53
Speaker
you know, what's next after the book has been published, whether you're on contract for a second book, or if you're going back on submission. And that's like a whole other thing. That's a whole experience. It's like not the same as it was before. So yeah, that'll be interesting. um I think that about rounds it off. Was there anything else you guys wanted to wanted to bring up about like, releasing and marketing and stuff? Hope not.
00:55:16
Speaker
It is possibly my, it can be great and it can be very soul destroying. So I think it's definitely ups and downs with marketing. um Just be careful because some people in your debut group will have a big budget and some people will not have anything at all. And just don't compare yourself to to people who have a big budget if you don't.
00:55:37
Speaker
and just be tactful if you do. Yes, that's a really good one. If you have a large marketing budget, and maybe you don't even realise, actually, you might think a lot of people, especially in debut, think that's completely normal because a lot of people on the outside looking in think, I'm going to get the billboard, I'm going to get this. So if you do have those, it's not massively normal. Be kind to your debut group. Not all publishing contracts weren't made equal. Nope.
00:56:07
Speaker
There's a big range, yeah. Awesome. Well, ah ending of the essay, are you guys watching anything new, reading anything new? I'm deep in editing land, so the answer is ten me ah no. time for entertainment, basically.
00:56:26
Speaker
I'm also in editing, but that's not the reason why I haven't, I don't think I haven't started much new. I'm watching lots of recurring things. Um, I watched the new Deadpool yesterday.
00:56:38
Speaker
It's, uh, silly and it's basically memes. Like it's fan service for an hour and a half. Yeah. right Yeah. It's basically fan service for an hour and a half. Yeah. yeah And it's like, oh, remember these guys from the early 2000s? Yes. Yes, I remember them. I remember those guys.
00:57:00
Speaker
Yeah, but that's it. Anything from you Melissa or? Well, we're now on season two of Supernatural. I don't know if you guys know, but it went for a really long time. Who knew? You watched the whole season? Wow. I've watched all of season one. Now I'm on season two. Isn't that like 20 episodes? Yeah, they're like 22 episodes. Remember back in the day when things used to actually be six months long. It is impressive. Yeah. They don't do that anymore. There's like a lot. There's like a lot of episodes near me. I'm a bit scared because I'm like, there's so many.
00:57:25
Speaker
ah But I did get excited because they dropped the trailer for Last of Us 2. When I say excited, I also mean incredibly heart-wrenchingly sad because I know it's funny. But yeah, excited. Yeah. Anyone who's not played the game, you're going you're you're in for a ride. It's a hell of a ride, man. I'm excited. There's going to be online discussions. Yeah, online discussions, capital O, capital D. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Awesome. um That wraps it up.
00:57:58
Speaker
Thanks for putting up with our nonsense for another episode. To stay tuned to everything we're up