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Bisexual Married Men: Book Launch Recap/Q&A
2.8k Plays1 year ago
My book, "Bisexual Married Men: Stories of Relationships, Acceptance, & Authenticity" is available now! I hosted two book launch parties last week to celebrate, share stories, and build community, and I'm so excited for everyone to read the book. In this episode, I give a brief recap of the launch events, and then you'll hear the last 50 minutes from the Zoom launch party, which includes a panel discussion with subjects from the book (Keith & Candice aka Evan & Linsday, Austin aka Quentin, and Howard & Elizabeth aka Stanley & Christine) plus an audience Q&A and some personal sharing.
I'll be back soon with more interviews in the Bi+ married men series!
Buy the book from Routledge: https://www.anrdoezrs.net/click-100985243-14472606?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.routledge.com%2FBisexual-Married-Men-Stories-of-Relationships-Acceptance-and-Authenticity%2FCohen%2Fp%2Fbook%2F9781032473260
Find more information about the book: https://www.robertbrookscohen.com/bisexualmarriedmen
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Transcript
Introduction and Book Release Announcement
00:00:12
Speaker
Hello everybody, welcome to Two Bye Guys, I'm Rob. My book came out last week by sexual married men, stories of relationships, acceptance, and authenticity.
00:00:25
Speaker
If you've been listening to this podcast, you know all about it by now. And it is now out. You can get your copy. There's a little bit of a delay even once you order it. So order it now because it could take a week or so to get it. I believe many of them are being printed on demand if they weren't already ordered.
00:00:44
Speaker
There are links in my link tree on To Buy Guys and my personal account. You can click the link and buy it directly from the publisher's website, Rutledge. It's 20% off if you get it now. There are also links on my website, RobertBrooksCohen.com, and more information there.
00:01:03
Speaker
and you can buy it on Amazon or you can buy it elsewhere.
Podcast Episodes and Book Launch Events
00:01:07
Speaker
It doesn't really matter to me where you buy it as long as you get a copy and take a look. I think you'll really like it and I'm really excited for everyone to actually start reading it and seeing what you guys connect with and
00:01:20
Speaker
what you think and really just like what resonates with you all. A lot of the stories in the book resonated with me, obviously, and I wrote about that, but I'm curious to see where those connections are and what you all think. So I was going to, I was supposed to have a new interview edited for you today with one of the bi-married guys,
00:01:45
Speaker
But I don't. It turns out the book events this week just took a lot of focus and time and took a lot out of me and I have not had time to finish editing any new episodes. I do have at least I think four more that will air and possibly five.
00:02:05
Speaker
So those will continue through December and into January. I think they're a really nice companion piece to the book. Although they're not a substitute for the book, the book is different and more edited and thought through and really like narratives. But the interviews are a nice companion. So you'll get to hear more of that. I hope next week, I assume next week, I'm pretty sure I can do it now that the book events are over.
00:02:34
Speaker
But today I decided I can't do it in time, but I did want to say hi and I wanted to tell you about the events. And then also I'm going to post the entire video from the Zoom launch party. I'm going to post that.
00:02:51
Speaker
on my website, maybe YouTube, I haven't figured out exactly how I'm going to do it. I'll let you guys know when it's up. It will definitely be up. I really want you guys to hear it. But what I'll do today is play some of that for you on the feed.
00:03:07
Speaker
the first 25-30 minutes, I gave a talk about it was an overview of the book. And it's essentially the same thing you've already heard on this feed. It is essentially the three episodes ago when I did the overview of this series.
Zoom Launch Party and Community Feeling
00:03:23
Speaker
I gave the talk, I gave you guys some of my takeaways, and I talked about why I wrote this book. So I basically did that at the book talk for the first half hour. And so rather than post it here, I know you might just listen to it, but it's really very similar to what you already heard. So
00:03:42
Speaker
Rather than do that, I'm just going to cut into the tail end of my talk. And I think I said a couple new things sort of toward the tail end. And then we got into a Q&A. And the Q&A was with three panelists from the book, subjects from the book. And then other people on the Zoom ended up chiming in and talking. And so you'll hear from them and what they thought, including my mother and my aunt.
00:04:10
Speaker
And there were many other of my family members on the Zoom. On the panel at the Zoom party, we had Keith and Candice, who were just in the last episode. You just heard from them. So you're going to hear a little bit more from them. But I always love hearing from them, especially together and how they talk about stuff together and how supportive Candice has been of Keith. So you'll hear a bit more from them. Also on that Zoom was Austin, a.k.a. Quentin in the book.
00:04:37
Speaker
Austin, I interviewed for this series coming up in December. You'll hear a lot more from him. And he was also in an episode of Two Bye Guys two years ago, that episode where I interviewed three bi-married men. And his chapter in the book is really fascinating. I'm looking forward to sharing that full interview on this series.
00:04:56
Speaker
And then also my friends Howard and Elizabeth are on the Zoom. Elizabeth is on the Leadership Committee by request. Actually, Howard and Elizabeth were in that same episode two years ago that Austin was in. And they are the final chapter in the book. Their names in the book are Stanley and Christine. So Howard and Elizabeth are on the Zoom. So you'll hear a bit from them. I asked them some questions. The audience asked some questions and then shared some thoughts.
00:05:23
Speaker
And so that's coming up in a minute. But let me talk a little more about the events before. I just want to say thank you so much to everyone who came to the Zoom. It was really, really nice and special. And so many people showed up. It was really nice to see how many people were there and how many people I've never met were there. So clearly, like it's a lot of you guys listening and maybe others who found the book or found the event.
00:05:47
Speaker
And after we did the panel, which you'll hear, I wanted to give a chance for more people to talk without recording and without knowing that it would be on this feed. And I wish I could share it, but by definition, it wouldn't have been the same if people knew I was going to share it. But after I did turn off the recording,
00:06:11
Speaker
many more people in the Zoom shared and really are looking for resources and so excited to hear these stories and also wanting to share their own. There was just a real sense of community in that Zoom and many of the men in the Zoom have been married and out as bi for a long time, some maybe less.
00:06:32
Speaker
But that's the thing that a lot of people talk about is just being in a room with people where it's normal, where they're talking about things that resonate. And everybody found something, like each person that spoke talked about something that one of the panelists said that they connected with. It was just really nice and special to hear what people took from these stories, even people who don't identify as queer or bi.
00:06:59
Speaker
So that event was great. Thank you for coming. The New York event, I want to just briefly talk about it. It was also so lovely and amazing. Very similar to the Zoom in terms of the community that was built there.
00:07:14
Speaker
except it was in person. And so it was like even more special, really special. I talk a lot about how important by request was for me when I was coming out and how when I first went to the center in those rooms and really met the people, saw them talk about themselves, like saw them nod and smile when other people were talking. And when I was talking, how powerful that was.
00:07:41
Speaker
And since the pandemic, you know, it by request is great, but it hasn't quite got the same numbers. We used to get 30 or 40 people in a room every other week and so many people that there weren't enough chairs and we would sit on the floor and.
00:07:57
Speaker
I loved that. And it's been a bit difficult to recreate since the pandemic. And we really did recreate it last night at the center. So the event was at the LGBT Center in a room where I've done by request many times.
00:08:14
Speaker
And it was almost full. I mean, there were a lot of people. I was really excited to see how many people showed up. A lot of guys showed up with their wives who were being so supportive. It was really nice to see a lot of bi men married to women for many years who, you know, have just not heard or shared these stories outside of group like by request. But, you know, this specific experience is so hidden and we're in these straight passing relationships that
00:08:42
Speaker
It was just wonderful, again, to hear everyone share. So we did a panel with subjects from the book and then we shared and asked questions and people talked about their experience and it was just a lovely, lovely night. It was really special for me to be sitting up there and talking and watching real people nod and smile and I know
00:09:08
Speaker
They're connecting with all the stories in this book and the panelists. So I don't really have too much to say about that, except thank you. It was so special. And thanks to everyone who came. And if you didn't come, it's OK. You can watch the Zoom. You're going to hear most of the Zoom now. You can watch the whole Zoom later when I post it sometime this week.
00:09:29
Speaker
And most importantly, you can pick up the book. I'm very excited for everyone to read it and to share what they like and what resonates with them and to share more of your story.
Importance and Impact of the Book
00:09:41
Speaker
As I say, as I think I said in this Zoom, I forget if it's in the part you'll listen to or not, but
00:09:48
Speaker
I hope that this is the beginning of a wave of visibility and of sharing these stories because there's so much more to do after that but that is a big step one is just saying hey we're here and you think we're all straight but actually no and it's important and here's why it's important and bye guys are really bye people in general but bye guys especially are are hiding in plain sight
00:10:12
Speaker
and I hope that we become less hidden and people realize how prevalent this is and how many of us there are and how hot by guys are and how queerness forces an interrogation of yourself and gives you the opportunity to really connect with that self and learn ways to express it and things like that.
00:10:34
Speaker
So I am so excited. Again, you can find links in my link tree in the bio. You can also go to robertbrookscohen.com. And there are links there and lots of information about the book. You can just search Bisexual Married Men at your favorite bookstore. And let me know what you think. Write to me on social media. Post some pages of the book that resonate with you. I would love to hear all that.
00:11:02
Speaker
So thank you so much. I'll have more interviews coming soon. Here now is the end of my talk at the book launch party plus the Q&A. It is completely unedited from Zoom because, like I said, I do not have time to edit today. And it's a Zoom, so you can watch the whole thing. All right, here we go. Enjoy and I'll talk to you more next week.
00:11:34
Speaker
A few final thoughts and then we'll get to the Q&A. I'm going much slower than I was. I think these marriages will look different in the future as the next generation learns more about bisexuality growing up. The youngest guy I interviewed for the book is 30, so pretty much everyone grew up before 2000, before bisexuality was as visible or understood. I still think we need more resources, more visibility of this experience, more community.
00:11:59
Speaker
And I see bi-married men as sort of a bridge between gay and straight community because many have lived their lives in straight culture, maybe even currently. And now they're getting into queer culture. And I want with this book to invite even straight identified men who are exploring sexual fluidity even a little. I want to invite them into queerness in ways that feel safe to them with this book so that they can use their
00:12:28
Speaker
unique position as bridge builders because there's I think there's a perception among straight people of what the queer community is and it feels far from what they are and actually it's all a spectrum it's not these things that are far apart there's all these people in between expressing themselves in so many
00:12:49
Speaker
different ways. It's just that many of these people in the middle are not as visible and you don't know that they're by. And so I hope that we can use this unique place on the spectrum to be bridge builders. I grew up viewing sexuality and gender as very binary for a long time. I was locked into that way of thinking, but I now view it as a spectrum. And I also think what's the last thing I want to say?
00:13:17
Speaker
I also think that I know there's a lot of bi people here in the audience. There's probably a lot of people here who know me who don't listen to the podcast and don't identify as queer.
Exploring Sexuality and Self-Love
00:13:27
Speaker
And I wanna say to you guys too, like, yes, sexuality, we've sort of defined as which gender you're attracted to. But writing this book and doing all this work and being out now for a bunch of years, I have noticed that there is,
00:13:47
Speaker
like that sex, romance, intimacy, emotional connections, there are hundreds or thousands of factors affecting them way more than just the gender spectrum. Like we boil this down to like, which gender do you like? And which gender do you connect with romantically? But there are so many other factors that affect relationships and everyone has different desires, interests, needs,
00:14:13
Speaker
And I suspect that many people have desires, interests, needs that maybe they're a little ashamed of, maybe they haven't fully explored or haven't quite reconciled. And my message is that's your superpower, that confronting whatever that thing is, whatever spectrum it's on, gives you the power to confront anything and the ability to get comfortable with your authentic self.
00:14:39
Speaker
and to really love yourself. And that's what the guys in this book have done. So it could be on any spectrum. For many of the guys in this book, it's the gender spectrum, and they confronted something with huge societal stigma
00:14:55
Speaker
And it's difficult to go through it, but it gives you enormous power to understand yourself and live more authentically. And so I hope that they can be an example for everyone, whether you're queer or not, to love every part of yourself and live with authenticity.
00:15:11
Speaker
Because as RuPaul says, if you can't love yourself, how the hell are you going to love somebody else? And so that's really what this book is about. It's about loving yourself so that you can love others and have meaningful relationships. So that is my little talk.
00:15:31
Speaker
Thank you for listening. I'm gonna now, let's do a little Q&A. So there's a bunch of people from the book who are here. You don't have to talk if you don't want to, but I'm gonna ask a few questions and whoever wants to speak on it, raise your virtual hand if you could, because I can't see everyone on the screen at the moment. I'll try to look around.
00:15:58
Speaker
but and I'll ask a few questions so we don't so you know I'll take a few answers for each one and we'll move on and I'll make sure everyone gets a chance to speak so the first thing I'll ask is like thinking of anything I said or especially those five takeaways I mentioned are there any that really resonated with you would you like to expand on how that showed up in your relationship or any other takeaways that I didn't mention that you want to
00:16:27
Speaker
share with the group. Yes, in the reactions, there's a raise hand function. Click reactions and then click raise hand like I just did. And I'll repeat them. It's like non-conforming relationships with masculinity coming out being not a binary singular event.
00:16:55
Speaker
coming up being a positive experience, non-monogamy, or some of the challenges for bi men.
Personal Stories of Coming Out and Support
00:17:06
Speaker
Anyone want to share? Austin. Hi, Austin. Wait. There we go. I'm on the unit. Oh, yeah, we're going to start.
00:17:23
Speaker
I think the coming out process, like I thought I came out before we were married and it wasn't the coming out. I had just framed it in a way that felt good and was as much as I understood at the moment about who I was. So it was basically about isolated experiences I'd had in the past and my wife thought they were in the past. And so as I came out to her 10 years into our marriage,
00:17:51
Speaker
And she didn't understand and it was a crisis at that time. And then I, yeah, I continue to understand more what that meant. And I would come again and talk about it. It was that continual coming out as I was coming out more and more to myself. I think that was the key. Like I didn't, it would, like you said, I didn't really understand. And
00:18:18
Speaker
And then, yeah, so about 15 years after I came out to my wife, we actually parted ways. So I'm one of those that we decided to go a separate direction. How old were you when you first got married? 25, 24, something like that.
00:18:38
Speaker
Yeah, so very understandable that you didn't have it all figured out. Yeah, and for me, for both of us, we had a script that we were given of what marriage looked like by our faith background, what relationships looked like, and we tried to stick to that script as much as possible, and we didn't think outside of that sort of binary way of looking at the world. Yeah, yeah. Can I ask you another question while you're up here, Austin? Yeah, absolutely.
00:19:08
Speaker
How do you feel about the decision to come out more fully looking back, even knowing that you guys are not together anymore? Yeah, so actually at the time I came out more publicly, my wife was instrumental in that. She was like, it's time, don't you think? And then I came out and she was a big supporter. She actually wrote a pod.
00:19:35
Speaker
blog about being the wife of a bi guy. So she she really processed it in a way that was actually quite public. And so I was her editor. So there was a lot of back and forth. And it was, we wrestled with a lot of things privately as as well as publicly. But yeah, it was. I don't know. Did that answer your question?
00:19:57
Speaker
Yeah, very much. Yeah, I mean, right. It's like sometimes we fear these things will end the relationship and we get the opposite response. But then, you know, that doesn't mean necessarily that everything in the relationship is
00:20:15
Speaker
Right. Anyone else want to talk about any of those takeaways? Or I would also ask for any of the couples or guys from the book, is there something you wish you had realized or understood sooner? Yay. Okay. Keith and Candice, go for it. Yay.
00:20:44
Speaker
Um, I think for me personally, as the straight half, um, I just wish I would have realized that, um, nothing had to change. Um, in my head, I just had these notions and I was convinced that it would never be the same and it wasn't, but in the best ways. Um,
00:21:12
Speaker
And nothing had to change in a bad way, even though all I was finding was proof of the opposite. And I think that's the hardest part is the invisibility and the not talking about it. All you find are the unhappy people. And so it really just affects how you have the outlook for the future. And it destroys relationships when people come out because
00:21:41
Speaker
All they think is it's gonna be terrible and it's never gonna feel better. And they just hang on to that fear. And I just wish I would have realized sooner that I could just listen to him and trust that he was still the person that I loved. Yeah. And that openness to listening and like truly understanding what I was saying, as I was saying it, as I was coming to terms with.
00:22:09
Speaker
uh, learning my own, uh, sexuality and how, how that would or would not affect my relationship. Um, but that openness to be able to, uh, you know, be, be one another's bouncing boards or, uh, to, you know, have those conversations. Right. Right. Yeah. I love that. And you guys were pretty young too, when you got married, right?
00:22:36
Speaker
Yeah, we were we got together in high school and got married 2011 ish. Yeah.
00:22:45
Speaker
what we were. But I don't know, we've been together. Yeah. Right. Right. Their chapter in the book is about evolving together, I think is the title of the chapter. And yes, and Candace and Candace and Keith also but Candace has started a whole website and movement about mixed orientation couples and
00:23:08
Speaker
That's part of why I included her in this book. You know, it's 13 by men and two of their wives. Elizabeth is the other one. She's in this Zoom. But I really wanted to include Candice because I think a lot of times guys are afraid of the reaction that their wife will have. And Candice was very open about like,
00:23:30
Speaker
having that reaction a little bit but then sitting with it and getting into it and talking about it and having a discussion, an evolving discussion over a long period of time and like putting in that work and it strengthened their relationship and you know what you talked about I think is so true like
00:23:52
Speaker
people are afraid of change. And I was, when I came out, my whole life's gonna change. And the truth is like, it will change, but it's great change. Like for me, it's good changes, even if you have to let go of certain expectations. Cool. Anyone else, Elizabeth and Howard, are you there? Do you wanna say hi? Not to put you on the spot.
00:24:23
Speaker
Um, and also hello. Oh, sorry. So we'll say hello. Um, we also, we're just having our own debate and dialogue regarding this. Cause we were fortunate enough that we met after the fact, after we were both out, well, I was more out than he was. And at.
00:24:46
Speaker
a gathering for by people. You'll hear all about it in the book. I like how you're using a euphemism when it's very explicit in the book. Right. I wasn't shy. We weren't shy. So that was a really nice thing because we didn't have to worry about that fear, that rejection.
00:25:11
Speaker
Um, it was, it was already on the table, like, okay, that's who we are. Then it was just the relationship, getting to know each other. How do we transition from being just people who enjoy playing to a relationship? And I remember, I'll never forget this question you asked, not for the book, but at a, at a, at a picnic one summer, Rob, where he's like, Oh, how is it that
00:25:38
Speaker
you're being a bisexual couple, how is it in your marriage, your relationship being bisexual? Did that bring difficulties? And I'm like, no, that's no problem. It's just the relationship part. For us, we've worked that out very fortunate. Because again, as you've mentioned before, one of the takeaways, being very open, being vulnerable, having the discussions.
00:26:05
Speaker
no matter what the repercussions are, if you're open and honest with yourself and your partner, you know, you learn and you grow and you become, as you say, stronger because you are open and honest and you're like, this is what I want. This is what I want out of the relationship or what we can do together. So anyway, that's my thoughts. Any thoughts? You agree, Howard? I'm the talker of the group here. Right. I'm the action person.
00:26:35
Speaker
Well, I actually, one of my next questions was like, what are, is there anything you're still struggling with? And it sounds like to me, if there is anything, it isn't related to sexuality. It's just maybe related to whatever's going on in your lives. Otherwise, is that, Oh, you know, it's the dirty dishes, the laundry, you know, all the other little crap that every couple has to deal with, you know,
00:26:58
Speaker
Right. Right. As is portrayed in many of these stories. However, you know, you guys are unique in that, which is why I love that you're in the book too, because you met you were out just basically by meeting each other. And you didn't have to go through that. But yeah, it is. It's it's like, there's a vast spectrum of how of how hard it is to talk about this stuff. And yeah, okay, Keith and Candice and then Austin have stuff to say.
00:27:27
Speaker
I just liked how you brought that up about the thing we've come across with dealing with so many mixed orientation relationship couples is that the sexuality becomes the scapegoat when in reality it's very seldom the actual biggest problem. And people break up and they separate
00:27:52
Speaker
And that becomes the reason it happened when really things were extremely broken to begin with. And you already had two people or more who weren't communicating well. And it sucks because it becomes the reason when it might not have actually been, but it just puts another negative connotation on someone's sexuality being the destroyer of this mixed orientation relationship.
00:28:20
Speaker
Yeah, when it was really just really, really poor communication. Yeah, or life problems or whatever, but combination of relationship issues. Yeah, they just hold on to that. A non-exorientation relationship would still have and do still have. Yeah.
00:28:35
Speaker
Yeah, right. So many things. And I mean, it's like what I was saying before about the hundreds and thousands of factors of a relationship and a partnership. And yes, this often is scapegoated. But I also think when you've had this tough conversation, like many people in the book and you two have had, it gets easier to talk about all that other stuff. So it's actually kind of
00:28:59
Speaker
a nice obstacle to, if you can overcome it, to get deeper on other things. Okay, Austin. You're muted, Austin. There we go. Yeah, one of the things that I found
00:29:19
Speaker
interestingly difficult, right?
Relationship Dynamics and Misconceptions
00:29:21
Speaker
I mean, so I'm seeing somebody now and it is not a woman. So that's been really interesting. And every once in a while I run into something, I'm like, oh, this is supposed to be a hetero problem. And no, it's just a human problem. It's just a human thing to work through in a relationship. And I'm finding that once my wife and I decided, okay, our marriage is not working for us,
00:29:50
Speaker
for the container for our love. How are we gonna shift that? There was so much of definition that we had given to marriage and what we were in that, that once that container was gone, there was this intimacy that we could not have imagined. That we were talking about things that we should have been talking about as a couple all along in really deep ways and able to just relax into that. And so I'm finding as I get into a new relationship that
00:30:18
Speaker
there's still those patterns of ways I've been looked at what a couple is or what this is, that I'm realizing I'm writing the rules for how I want that to look for me now. And that's really liberating. I can ask for what I want. It's not just, I don't just have a script I need to go by. It's completely me. And that's terrifying and liberating at the same time.
00:30:44
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And that's like, I didn't really discuss that today, but it's a huge theme of the book is like, how, how queerness or nonconformity on a lot of these spectrums, not monogamy, gender, other things, it forces you to write your own script. But it's like an opportunity to write your own script and to, it's hard to, you know,
00:31:09
Speaker
abandon the expectations that you have, but there's really something beautiful in writing your own script. And one thing when you do that, I think you attract people into your life that are on that similar trajectory. And it's that sort of this queer thread that's now running through my life in ways that I'm like, where did all these people come from? And it's a beautiful thing.
00:31:32
Speaker
Right. It's a it's a lovely filter. Yeah, exactly. Okay, last question for you guys, then we'll open it up. We'll end in a minute. But is, is there any advice you I mean, you actually I guess my question is, what do you hope that other people will get out of reading your story in the book? I asked I asked you most of you this already on the podcast. But if you've got a brief answer of it, we would love to hear.
00:32:01
Speaker
Go for it, Keith and Candice. We all know I'm always willing to talk. I mean, I think we said this in the, possibly the book and maybe the podcast interview, for our case particularly, just so that people don't feel alone. I mean, that's the overarching thing, obviously, for bi folks, but mixed orientation couples also.
00:32:30
Speaker
And I was extremely proud to be a part of it as a straight person's voice. I sometimes joke that I'm begrudgingly straight. Like I'm like, I don't feel like I am. I feel like a huge ally. I feel like I want to be a voice for people. And sometimes, you know, I don't want to speak for people, but I just want to be representative of, you know, how welcoming and not alone anybody is.
00:32:59
Speaker
and just a positive example in some small way. And that all stems from that's why, that's what we were looking for. And we didn't have those examples to draw a healthy, sustainable relationship with the cards that we had. We just wanna be that.
00:33:29
Speaker
Yes. That for other people. Right. Beautiful. And, you know, my whole podcast and this book is really like the resource I wish I had the examples I wanted to see and didn't have. And so, yeah, it's like, we wish we had heard these stories. And so we're, we're, you're paying it forward. So thank you. We're telling them. We're telling those stories. Austin.
00:33:57
Speaker
Yeah, I think for me it has to do with mental health and that are in situations that they don't feel that there's no way out. And I know a lot of men who've dealt with depression and really have been closeted. And for me, a big part of my coming out was as much that as anything. I had a friend who took his own life. And so for me, that was
00:34:24
Speaker
like a no brainer, I wanted to at least let people see somebody living their life in a way that was authentic and without apology, accepting their desires. And for me, especially within the faith tradition I come from, people have reached out to me, said, have had ongoing conversations and they're still closeted, they're still in a mixed orientation marriage in a situation that,
00:34:50
Speaker
I don't know if I could even live in, but I could at least, I can at least offer support and just the fact that somebody sees them. And yeah, that's what I needed. And I didn't have for many years or decades. Yeah, right. So, beautiful and important. And there's a reason this is in the Rutledge mental health section and Austin's story touches on more of that stuff and it's really beautiful.
00:35:20
Speaker
I love that chapter. I love all the chapters of everyone who's here. Howard and Elizabeth, what do you hope people will get out of reading your story? For me, personally, it's just the fact that being a woman, not the fact that I'm bi, that at this point, that's kind of irregardless, but I have a better understanding of Howard. But at the same time, there's a lot of women out there
00:35:51
Speaker
who support and enjoy and want to be with bi men, because I've heard over the years so many bi men who are like, oh, I hear women that don't want to be with me, blah, blah, blah. I say they're lost. You know, there's so many women out there who
00:36:07
Speaker
you know, enjoy bi men, you know, just don't see it as an issue, don't have the fear, don't want to, don't reject them and stuff. So I think that was just my biggest takeaway that we're here to support and help in any way. And I love it. Yes. Tell us more about what you love about bi men.
00:36:34
Speaker
We'll do that on Saturday. We'll do that on Saturday. But it is. There's a lot of stigma, especially from straight women, but lots of women. And so it is really lovely when we get to hear about women who prefer bi men or the positive things about dating and being with bi men. Howard, would you like to answer what you hope people will get out of reading your story? You don't have to.
00:37:02
Speaker
Maybe more dates? No, I'm kidding. I promise that Howard spoke in this book, and his words are in this book. I got him to talk, and there's a lot of words in this book that came out of Howard's mouth. Well, if you listen to the podcast, you'll know he does speak, so yeah. Yes. Yeah, they were in the podcast last year or something, and their chapter is also hilarious. I mean, it's serious too, but it is one of the few chapters that is also genuinely hilarious.
00:37:32
Speaker
I laugh when I reread it. OK, so just a couple of minutes left, but does anyone have questions for me or the panelists?
Sharing Personal Stories for the Book
00:37:43
Speaker
Also, Dr. Mimi, I don't want to put you on the spot, no pressure. But if you had a comment or any observations, since I know you do work in this area, but also anyone else who has a question for me or wait, let me spotlight myself. OK, my mother has a question. Go ahead, Ma.
00:38:02
Speaker
I always have a question. Well, first, thank you, Rob, again for writing this and sharing these stories. And I just want to thank all of you bisexual men and their spouses for sharing the stories. We lost
00:38:16
Speaker
Did we lose it? No, you're good. And my question, you sort of have touched on, but my question is for all of the, all those who shared their oral histories. How did it feel first to tell your story and how did to Rob? And how did it feel, you know, to have someone listen to your story in that context of working with Rob?
00:38:44
Speaker
Anyone want to answer my mother's question? Okay, go ahead. I mean, initially, very threatening. Even being openly out to friends and family at that point, going that extra step in having an open conversation with a stranger
00:39:14
Speaker
Uh, that's going to end up, uh, expansively going out to other strangers to have that same conversation. Uh, initially it was very, uh, scary and, and, and threatening in a way. But, uh, once the conversation started happening, um, that, and, you know, various stories that we had heard on two by guys, it, it, it was kind of exciting just to like have that, um,
00:39:44
Speaker
to have that connection and be able to have that conversation in a very open, honest way. And we're so grateful for having, Rob having a ear to listen to our story. Yeah, I think I was the one who, I'm pretty positive actually, I was the one who reached out and volunteered us for the interview way back in 2020.
00:40:13
Speaker
Um, and I kind of did it on impulse. I had our mixed orientation groups and all that. I was very, um, you know, active online, but in a lot more of an anonymous way. And so I reacted, I reached out to you and then I regretted it. And I was like, Oh, hell.
00:40:34
Speaker
You know, but you know, I, I didn't know at any time if it would be anonymous or visible. Um, but then the more we talked about it and thought about it, you know, we didn't really care either way. Um, and I don't know why we were bothered. I don't even know. I think for me, we touch on that a little bit, um, in a few places, but I worry. I go back to those old worries and those old fears of like, people are going to think I'm,
00:41:03
Speaker
his beard, they're going to think he's actually gay. And I get so upset that I still think that way after all this time and all of my own work. It's just that stupid fear that's like people aren't going to take us seriously or or respect our relationship. I don't even know. But there was definitely that fear of being in the open and front and center that is gone now.
00:41:29
Speaker
But yeah, I was afraid at first, but then very happy to be telling our story and have people to hear it. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I'm so glad you did it and that it worked out for and it and it reminds me of I.
00:41:47
Speaker
came out publicly because by request, a few of us were featured on a TV show called Slut Ever. We recorded it. It wasn't going to be released for six months, but I had said yes to it. And I was like, oh God, what have I done now? We recorded this. That was impulsive. And now in six months, it's going to be on TV. And so I kind of- No take-backs.
00:42:12
Speaker
Right. No take backs. I signed a waiver. And so, yeah, like, I, I, sorry, someone's not muted. I then had those six months to think about it and come out to people and make sure I was there. And in hindsight, I'm, I'm glad I pushed myself to do that. Because, yeah, it
00:42:36
Speaker
Things changed, but it was great. Go ahead, Austin. Louder. Wait, what was that? Oh. I don't know. Well, that distracted me. What was the exact question?
00:42:59
Speaker
um I think my mom you can answer that yes yes no I yeah I got it what was it like to be interviewed by me yeah no it was it was like therapy um to be honest I I hadn't been I hadn't talked with somebody that was out as bi before and so for me to have a conversation with someone who just
00:43:22
Speaker
I didn't have to explain myself was so freeing. And that was my experience. I had already been out. I didn't know any other bi people, but I was just, I knew what I was and I was, had been out for a little while. So that was that.
00:43:36
Speaker
Cool. Yeah, I was also talking to someone else. The interview will come out soon. Another guy from the book who lives in London, he was going to try to make it, but it's too late. But he said that I asked him open-ended questions, but I thought of things to ask him that he had never thought to think about. And because I've gone through the experience, or at least some of it,
00:44:03
Speaker
I had, I didn't know what he would say, but I knew things to ask about. And I didn't really realize that at the time, but I was just asking what I was curious about. But, but I will be doing coaching soon, which is like therapy and which apparently I was already doing three years ago without realizing it. Okay, Howard and Elizabeth.
00:44:29
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, we fortunately had a different experience cause we've known Rob since beginning.
Community Support and Societal Perceptions
00:44:37
Speaker
I think you were actually came to the by request that we, the first meeting that we were leading, right? Howard and I, maybe. I don't remember. I actually, I think it was Paul and it was about Kevin Spacey. Oh, okay. So anyway, but I've known Rob for years. And so it was just like having a fun,
00:44:57
Speaker
conversation, you know, and we just joked and laughed and oh my God, I think there's so much that hit the editing floor that we were just giggling about, but it was just like having a conversation by request. We're very open and just being ourselves and sharing. And I've been very fortunate that we have the community in New York and
00:45:23
Speaker
Before the pandemic, we had, there'd be times that twice a month, we would have 30, 40 people in a room talking about themselves. That was just, it was amazing. Now we're maybe about 10 or 15. I mean, I'm not trying to, you know, but just finding a way to find the community and being able to be honest and talk with each other and have that opportunity and share your stories, even though they may not be exactly the same,
00:45:52
Speaker
There's so many parallels that you could really understand. Oh, yeah, I've been there. I've been down that road. Oh, yeah. And I want to say I'm I feel really bad for bi men in our society. It's a double edged sword. I say it all the time. Being a bi woman, I'm looked at as like, oh, oh, fantasy. Oh, lovely threesome.
00:46:15
Speaker
You know, and I'm, I'm the opposite. I'm like, yeah, I want a threesome too. I want an MMF, you know, so, um, where a lot of, which really throws, throws people off, you know, they're like, what? No, cause they, they want it. They're used to FFM, but anyway, so.
00:46:34
Speaker
It's one of those things where I like to subtly kind of push back and change things. Well, actually, I'm not that subtle in my chapter. I wasn't that subtle. But anyway, there's ways of just saying that you're out there and supporting. And I think I kind of digressed. I went off the topic.
00:46:57
Speaker
Um, anyway, no, it was, it was wonderful. And I'm glad that, so glad that you've given all these voices and different perspectives, the opportunity to share those stories and, and, and given voices to people who don't, who aren't as fortunate as we are having by request in New York. So anyway, on that note, I will shut.
00:47:20
Speaker
Right. Well, and that's why I'm so glad you guys are in the book. Your interview was sort of the polar opposite of some of the other ones I did with people I had never met. But I wanted to have a diversity of experiences in the book and a diversity of tone and style. And we talked about different types of things in your interview that will be interesting and valuable in different ways.
00:47:49
Speaker
I remember those days of by request, like I would always volunteer to sit on the floor because there were never enough chairs. And yeah, I hope we get back there soon. And I hope it spreads to other places. Keith and Candice, go for it. Oh, I just had a super quick when she was saying, you know, she feels bad for bi men, basically, just a small little anecdote, even in my own
00:48:15
Speaker
personal Facebook pages and things, I'm extremely open about, you know, being supportive and mixed orientation relationships and bisexuality. I am always assumed to be the bisexual one, always. Every single time someone talks to me about it, I get comments, I get, they just, even his family to this day, just think I'm the bi one, no matter how many times I've corrected them, no matter how many times we're open about it,
00:48:43
Speaker
it's just assumed that the woman is the bi one. And it's just, I just can't even believe it sometimes. It's like, come on, how much more open can I be about it? It's so crazy. Yeah. Austin, go for it. Yeah, sometimes I do a lot of work with men in general, in men's groups. And I just go into those groups
00:49:07
Speaker
It used to be, I used to have all this internalized homophobia going to these groups or biphobia. And now I just, I walk in there as if every man is a bi man and interact with them in that kind of way. And often it's surprising how much there is a hunger for intimacy even among straight men.
00:49:31
Speaker
whether they're bi or not. To sexualize that connection that all men need is unfortunate. And so that's a gift that I bring into those spaces that I'm in. Yeah. Yeah, I think that's a huge area of need. Cool. Eli, you want to say something? Go for it.
00:49:54
Speaker
I was not going to speak, but Austin and Keith and Candice and Howard and Elizabeth, I think you guys have done a really good job at shaping this conversation in a positive and productive and helpful way. And Rob, I can't wait to read this book. I am a heterosexual man who was in a marriage with a bisexual woman who came out in her mid 30s.
00:50:22
Speaker
I think we touched on the subject. It was a difficult conversation maybe for about 10 seconds until we sort of realized that it's not that big of an issue between us. And we have much bigger issues that sort of took precedence. And I think one of them was Austin, you touched on
00:50:49
Speaker
um, men and, you know, gender roles and expected masculinity. Rob, that was one of your, one of your takeaways was sort of like the sort of masculinity, um, expectations and, and, uh, and I, I guess, um, you know, intimacy that Austin, Austin mentioned, if that's missing in the context of a relationship, um, whether there's bisexuality or different things involved, um, that's part of the work that needs to get done. And I remember Rob, I had a conversation with you that was like,
00:51:18
Speaker
I don't think I'm very happy. And it doesn't have to do with my life coming out. It has to do with other issues. And you mentioned the word authenticity, which has been mentioned here a couple of times tonight.
00:51:32
Speaker
and having difficult conversations without fear of what might happen, even if what might happen will change things drastically. Because sometimes things need to change drastically. And in the end, it can be for the better. And I can sit here absolutely attesting that it's
Authenticity and Support Across Orientations
00:51:51
Speaker
for the better. And I feel stronger. And I feel more able to show emotion and share emotions and positive and helpful, respectful ways.
00:52:01
Speaker
Cheers, kudos, can't wait to read the book, can't wait to read the follow up by women in marriages and then so on and so forth.
00:52:11
Speaker
Yeah, thank you so much for sharing that, Eli. That's really beautiful. And yeah, you can be in the next book. Cool. Well, so we've gone a little over. I don't want to go too long. I want to end the recording in a moment, but I will stay on a little longer and chat or answer a few more questions. But I just
00:52:34
Speaker
OK, I want to repost the links in the chat just in case anyone needs them before they go and don't want to scroll up. Thank you all so much for coming. OK, OK, stay. Don't go. Flo wants to say something. OK, I always have to figure out how to unmute.
00:52:59
Speaker
What I'd like to say is, it's kind of a question for you, Rob. What are the kinds of things that plain straight people can do to make the lives of people who are in different modes of living easier? For myself, I don't really care that much about somebody's sexuality.
00:53:27
Speaker
A bunch of gay male friends were going to the gay men's chorus of Washington holiday concert at the end of this week. And I don't really think of these men as gay. I think of them as my friends. I like them because of the people that they are.
00:53:47
Speaker
regardless of anything else. Part of that's because I'm old. When you're 75, I guess you don't really focus that much on flirting or romanticizing or sexualizing context with people. So that may be part of it.
00:54:05
Speaker
But to a great extent, I think the only reason there's stigma about things like bisexual anybody is that the non bisexual people are assumed to have negative reactions, which I think unfortunately is for the most part, relatively accurate. So my feeling is what can straight people do
00:54:35
Speaker
to help other straight people understand that this is anybody's own personal choice and don't get twisted up in knots about it.
00:54:51
Speaker
Well, good, good question. And thank you for sharing. I mean, there's a lot, there's a lot in that question. Like, and I don't know, I don't know that I fully have an answer. Like one thing most straight people could do is be more like you be more accepting and understanding. And so if you can, you know, get that message out there, great.
00:55:12
Speaker
um in terms of dealing with like real homophobes that you know i i don't know uh like it's difficult and there's that's a whole other discussion but i do think you know one thing is make read this book and make people read this book because and i you know i'm being facetious but in reality
00:55:30
Speaker
It isn't just about explaining terms and explaining why the law should be what it is and arguing about these things and negotiating. A big thing that we need is representation of what people's lives really are like and how does bisexuality play out in someone's life. Why is it important? So when you say, I don't care about someone's sexuality, it's like,
00:55:57
Speaker
people think that bisexuality comes up in other people's lives in certain ways. And it's often not how it comes up or not the things that people actually struggle with. And so I do think one of the important things is to get to know more bi people and be open with them so that they may feel comfortable coming out. And the more that you know,
00:56:21
Speaker
what their lives are really like, then the more understanding and empathetic you can be to the real challenges that people face. Bob, do you want to say something?
00:56:33
Speaker
Yes, I want to add something to that that is very important. And I am a facilitator here by request. And we've come up with this before regarding about with couples and that we all collectively need to learn not to assume that a guy and a woman together
00:56:53
Speaker
when they're together or holding hands that they're straight or that two guys holding their hands together that they're gay or two women that are holding their hands that are lesbian. In all of them, they can be body in any of those combinations. And so one thing to think of is to get this what's called cis hetero thought process out of us and just simply say, oh, there are a couple.
00:57:19
Speaker
or their friends and take that out of it. So that way there's no, you know, stereotyping. And we all have to learn it collectively and that helps regarding with language. Language helps explain all of us and our experiences and it really is important to have it.
00:57:38
Speaker
Yep. Yeah, totally agree. Thank you, Bob. And I was going to say something, but I forgot. And so Brad and Amy, do you want to say something before, in case I think of it? OK, sorry. There we go. I just want to thank you for making the world a better, smarter place. Thank you. Thank you, Amy. I appreciate that. All of you. All of you. All of you.
00:58:08
Speaker
you in particular. Yeah. Yeah, thank you. Thank you, Amy. Thank you, everybody who shared their stories for the book. And today, what was I going to say about something? I don't know, whatever. I said a lot of things. Oh, I was going to say, sorry, Bob made me think. This is the last thing and then we'll pause. But I think that
00:58:35
Speaker
bisexuality, like something that's coming up from what a lot of people are saying is like, you know, why is your bisexuality important? And a lot of, I think, non bi people think, well, it's about choosing a partner, and which gender partner are you going to have? And are you going to be monogamous or not? And those are the things.
00:58:54
Speaker
And I hope that reading this book, you'll see that it's about so much more than that and that a bi identity is a breakdown of a binary. It's an open mindedness and a worldview. It's not just about sex and sexuality and gender.
00:59:12
Speaker
It's about reframing gender and reframing everything we're taught about sexuality. And so when what I learned by request is that many by people have done that work, and then they see the world differently.
00:59:29
Speaker
and that can be beautiful in a marriage and it can also cause conflict in a marriage. And that's sort of what's in this book is all the nuanced ways that this shows up. And so it's not, TV shows often boil it down to like, will they choose a man or a woman? Which one will they end up with in this love triangle? And like,
00:59:49
Speaker
that's like barely an issue that most people deal with. And there are so many other things. And so yeah, that's what you'll read about. Okay, so I will stay on in a minute after I stop the recording, but I just wanna say thank you all so much for coming here. I put up the links, you can buy the book. If you do like the book and could review it on Amazon, that would be incredible. And if you can help spread the word in any way,
01:00:19
Speaker
That's also amazing. The book makes a great gift. Maybe someone will come out to you and you didn't realize it. And I appreciate all your support. So thank you so much for being here. Yeah, this was amazing.
01:00:35
Speaker
Two Bye Guys is produced and edited by me, Robert Brooks Cohen, and it was created by me and Alex Boyd. Our logo art is by Caitlin Weinman. Our music is by Ross Mincer. We are supported by the Gotham, and we are part of the Zencaster Creator Network. Visit patreon.com slash Robert Brooks Cohen for bonus content, early access, and exclusive video episodes. Thanks for listening to Two Bye Guys.
01:01:03
Speaker
you