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Ep. 191 – Charismatics, Christian Camps, and Communes w/ Jillian
378 Plays11 months ago
This week we’re joined by friend of the show and fellow Liberty University apostate, Jillian! We were all part of the LU Christian metalcore community (it’s every bit as cringe as it sounds, but it was also a ton of fun), and it’s the first time we’ve caught up with her in over 15 years. Jillian’s story differs a lot from the many of us who grew up in church, in that her introduction to more extreme forms of Evangelicalism came as the result of a spiritual experience she had as teen, and her family’s somewhat bewildered-yet-supportive response to it. I’d hate to spill the beans before she tells the story herself, so I’ll just say that her journey has led her across the country and through many different scenarios to a place of self-acceptance and happiness. We were really excited to talk to her, and we hope you enjoy the conversation!
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Transcript
An Emotional Skit and Its Impact
00:00:00
Speaker
Yeah, it was like a skit but it didn't have any words and I think that made it really powerful or that much more powerful because there was no talking in it. But there is this there was this girl who was like the the main person and she was just going around to all these different people in her life. like hurt I think first there were like her parents and then later on it was like a boyfriend and then other people. Well, every time she, you could tell she was sad and she was trying to find I guess love or belonging. And every time she would go up to these significant people in her life, they would take this ah paper heart that she was holding. So she had like this big paper heart.
00:00:56
Speaker
Oh, Sam, you're laughing. No, I just know this move. what it is going to be i know this move And they ripped a part of her heart off. and kept the peace, of course, and then gave her heart back to her. So I watched this, and I don't know what was going on with me or what happened in that moment, but I was, I was sobbing. Like it, it really, it did something to me. It just really struck me something.
A Life-Changing Camp Experience
00:01:32
Speaker
inside of me when I saw that and so I at the time being 14 years old and you know being in this culture of like Christianity um and being at this Christian camp I just just I just thought you know oh this must mean that I just got saved
00:02:12
Speaker
Hey, everybody. Welcome to another episode of Growing Up Christian. I'm Sam. I'm Casey. And tonight we're hanging out with our friend Jillian. Welcome, Jillian. Oh, my gosh. What's up? Hey, guys.
Reunion and Reminiscence with Old Friends
00:02:27
Speaker
Jillian. It's seriously been like 15 years since we probably got it spoke. Is that it? That's actually a long time. Let's see. i I went to Liberty in like, so my my memory, just so you guys know, my memory is like not good with a lot of stuff. So fair most of what we hear tonight is going to be completely made up. It's like a yeah choose your own venture. Some memories and things I come up with, they could be just like stories that I've just made up over the years and they're not actually true at all.
00:03:06
Speaker
So it's like, who, who really knows what the truth is. And next thing robot I came to and I was prone on a rooftop with my reticle over Trump's head. and Oh my God. Well, we'll get into some of that stuff for sure. 15 years. Yeah. I mean, tooth it's got, okay, actually. I don't want to sound like an asshole, but did we meet? Have we met at Liberty? We probably did.
00:03:39
Speaker
I feel like we probably did, but I'm not, I can't think of any specific interaction. So like, was it through Dave Smith that you ended up reconnecting to this? Like Dave Smith is like the pinnacle of mutual friendship. Like Dave Smith is, I mean, so many things, so many great things. And one of them is yes, the pinnacle of friendship.
College Life and Struggles with Beliefs
00:04:01
Speaker
So we're all folks that the big sweetheart hub at the center of the wheel. with that little Ace of Hearts clip to the thing so it goes like a bicycle with. Yeah.
00:04:21
Speaker
but So yeah, my friend group was um my friend Danielle, who I met the first year I was there. So I think it was like 2006 was my freshman year at Liberty. Okay. And um yeah, my friend group consisted of Danielle and Dave and then our friend Kevin. Sorry, i can't I can't be serious when I talk about certain people. Love you, Kevin. I don't know what happened to you, but I hope you're okay. um I feel like that's so many. like when When we had Dave on, after we were done recording, we spent like 45 minutes just being like, whatever happened ah and just seeing where if any who knew who which people still and where things were at. It's ah such a trip to think about.
00:05:12
Speaker
Yeah, there's only a couple people that I stay in touch from those those days. um I mean, now I guess you guys too, which is cool. um But it's only really been like a couple people that I stayed in touch with and ah So yeah, ah to answer your question, Sam, we probably did meet at some point since it sounds like we were all like into the same kind of like music and stuff. So yeah. Oh yeah. Same scenes. so I know we had a lot of like in year, like you must have hung out at the Yearly house.
00:05:47
Speaker
So the the year or not, thomas I don't I don't remember that. I remember Dave talking about that on the podcast. And I think I must have up and left Liberty by then because like I was only at Liberty for like two years. um The end of my sophomore year, I was just like depressed and I dropped out and went back home. But um I do remember him talking about that. But I Do you guys remember the whorehouse? It was called the whorehouse. Like, I don't know. I don't know what else to call it. I don't think so. It was like an off-campus house. We were good boys. Yeah, Liberty University. You remember the whorehouse? Yeah, there was like East Campus, the circle, the quads, and the whorehouse. You remember? That's where Jerry liked to spend most of his time. Yeah. Probably. We'll find out later.
00:06:44
Speaker
Like, you know, they're gonna dig up some shit later on. Like, come on. We all know that he has many skeletons. um So anyway, bring that place up because that, I think that was like a band house where like i all these people would hang out, but there was this band called Ghost of a Fallen Age. Do you guys remember? Hell yeah They were like who we aspired to be. We were like, oh my God, they're so cool. Like they're down tunes. We got a down tune because Joseph fallen age did it and pig squeals. Yes. I was like, I was so into them. I mean, like all of us kids in the scene were, I think, if you if you lived there. So.
00:07:32
Speaker
Um, I remember that being a house. I don't think I ever went there. I actually hope I didn't because if I did, I don't remember it. That's probably not great. so probably Especially being called the whorehouse. I don't remember. Yeah, but I don't know. Do you guys want to get into some like Liberty stuff? Well, yeah. Tell us, well, tell us a little bit about how you grew up and, and where and sort of, uh, where the, when you became born again and on fire
Jillian's Religious Journey and Internal Conflict
00:08:06
Speaker
for God. When I got saved, yeah. Hell yeah. Okay, so yeah, I was born and raised in Key, New Hampshire. I think it- I don't think of New Hampshire as like, like a lot, like if you grew up in the South or anywhere near Liberty, it's one of those like, there's such a religious cultural climate. And I think when I think of people going to Liberty, I feel like probably New Hampshire is like,
00:08:32
Speaker
pretty low on the list of like like the low on the percentage of like people from New Hampshire who are at Liberty compared to other states. Yeah, because it's in that um I mean, New England is known to be more like liberal. Yeah, I guess the few in the problem. Yeah. But you grew up in, was it a commune? No, the commune came later on, actually, which is a crazy story. Hey. Actually, not kidding. Kind of. Oh, my God. So. Was it the key? So grew up in New Hampshire. In Key, New Hampshire is like, I don't know, like 30,000 people, I think. I don't know what it's like now, but
00:09:17
Speaker
Um, I remember going to Lutheran church, like we, from, I think like when I was like from age six to 14, we went to Trinity Lutheran church. Yeah. And that, um, I actually look back on that and I have a lot of good memories. Um. Because I later on in my life, I think I really learned how to appreciate some kind of ritualistic practices that were incorporated into those services.
00:09:55
Speaker
Um, like, Lutherans can be chill too. Yeah. I mean, sometimes they ordain women. Yeah. So, um, I, I remember like, I was always so excited during Christmas time because on Christmas Eve, we would always have like the candlelight service or vigil is what they would call it. And that was just so, I just loved it. Like, like I loved being. like in this church, like in the dark, surrounded by all these people with candles. It sounds really messed up when I say it. But no, like it it felt like a really, like a sacred kind of experience.
00:10:37
Speaker
um At age 13, we had to do this thing where um we had to like memorize some stuff from like the catechism and then we we were Expected to get up in front of the church and like make a like statement of faith and I like a confirmation like the leader in equivalent of a confirmation i remember oh it is just a confirmment i'm not kidding It was confirmation and honestly, I loved like memorizing all the like
00:11:11
Speaker
doctor-y stuff that they would teach us. I don't know. I just, I have some like attachments to that kind of stuff, I guess. um But I remember they wanted us to like give this statement of faith and I told my mom, I was like, yeah, no, like I don't, I don't want to do that. I don't feel comfortable doing that. And it, i It wasn't even a thing about like, I don't want to get up in front of people. I generally really do hate being up talking in front of people. um But it seriously wasn't even about that. I think like I just like, I didn't even know what I would say.
00:11:54
Speaker
Like I didn't even know what all of this was or what all of this meant.
Family Dynamics and High School Experience
00:12:00
Speaker
And maybe it's that like at a young age, I had like this understanding that I didn't understand early on just a little bit. um I think something something else was going on there. so so you didn't So it wasn't like prepared remarks that they gave you. You had to kind of write your own thing and make your own sort of personal statement? Yes, from what I remember. Yeah. And then you had to like get up on the pulpit and like read it in front of the entire freaking church, which is like
00:12:36
Speaker
It wasn't like a and it was maybe like a 200 people or something. But that's a lot of people, in my opinion. Yeah, especially as a teenager, young teenager, like not used to public speaking at all. I think it's ah interesting. So when you told your mom that well, how'd that go? Because I think of like, I think of enough that I did could have any thoughts outside of what I was given. I was like, yeah, totally. I'm on board fully. But I can imagine if I didn't feel that way, that would have created a lot of friction in my house and it would have been very challenging.
00:13:17
Speaker
if I was like, at that age was like, I don't, I don't really think I want to do that for reasons based on my understanding of it or lack of understanding or whatever. ah did In your house, was that a pretty open line of communication between you and your mom or is that it was like discomfort or friction there? Yeah, so like, it's so weird with my parents because it's like, their their politics and like their their values are so like very conservative and like right wing. and ah like Going to church is important to them. um you know they go to They actually live outside of Dallas now and they go to some like crazy mega church, some big like Baptist church.
00:14:09
Speaker
um so like But even Even though they were like really strict about like what they believed, like especially I feel like my mom was always just very empathetic toward my feelings. And like I am a person who has like very intense feelings. um just ah like I deal with stuff with my mental health and whatever that I have to kind of ah navigate
00:14:40
Speaker
Um, but I mean, it, she was just always really, really there for me and didn't, she, my mom's never forced me to do something I didn't want to do. She really hasn't. And my dad was there too. My dad's always been in the picture, but I, I've always had, I think that closer relationship with my mom. So that's why I bring her up. that's I think that's sick. I mean i just i i love when I hear people who have that kind of experience where they go.
00:15:14
Speaker
where your mom was willing to listen and and not to to say she's because I was 17 trying to sleep over my friend's house on a Saturday night and I was like in a fight about whether or not i like my mom's like absolutely not you have to go to church tomorrow with the family and it's like I was out with my own car like I could have just not gone like nothing would have happened Uh, I wouldn't have been grounded. I, I, but my disposition kind of fucked me on that one. Cause it's just like, I can't have people be mad at me. I can't have my parents be mad at me. Like I should have been fine with that. That's like normal kid shit. Uh, but when I hear people are like who have total opposite words, just like, yeah, they just like respected how I felt about it. I'm like, that's crazy shit. ah feel like i mean Oh, um I'm sorry.
00:16:07
Speaker
Why? Well, I think like the more evangelical strains of Christianity, like it's almost sort of a it like it's not the only thing. Obviously, people are plenty of people who had, you know, kind of strict immovable parents that weren't evangelicals. But I think the the like zero sum nature of how like salvation was framed in in of evangelicalism, like It's like your're your' your parents had to balance like the normal feelings of, you know I want my kid to be a part of this thing that that we do and I want them to like you know take an interest in this and I'm trying to teach them because I think this is what's best and stuff. But then on top of that, like what if what if they don't get saved and what if they go to hell?
00:16:58
Speaker
and like ah something could happen tomorrow, there could be an accident tomorrow and they would go to hell because they didn't accept, you know, they didn't make this public statement and blah, blah, blah, blah. And it's like, it's like an extra layer on top of a thing that parents already kind of have a hard time not doing. You know, yeah that's why they're like, if you, that's why they're like, yes, you can stay over Saturday night, but you have to get up and drive to church. Cause if it's, if you die in a car accident on your way to church, like you're good. So they were just hoping, they're like, no no don't come back at like two in the morning on a Saturday night just like because he might crash and be tired but no stay up till four in the morning get three eyes asleep drive to church and if you as long as you just die on your way to church like we know we'll see you like this is a blip right we'll miss you for the next 40 years but we will see you for eternity afterwards so you know ah that might have something to do with it brownie points yeah
00:17:56
Speaker
It's so wild. Anyway, did your parents want you to die on the way to church, Jillian? Did they? No, I don't think so. I'm just kidding. My parents would would have been mortified over my death and they were not thinking that. Yeah. No, I mean, i I just want to say I'm very grateful that I have the parents I have and especially my mom because like, I don't know, I, just the way I am and like the stuff that I've learned over the years about um myself and what I need to be okay. like it If she had been, I'm just gonna say crazy, like if she had been crazy strict about that stuff, I honestly really do think it would have messed me up. like I would have, I don't know, I would have gone to the dark side, just kidding.
00:18:52
Speaker
ah so She thinks I'm on the dark side. So yeah, whatever. but yeah Differentiations in politics will do that to people. um So it sounds like things are kind of chill for you. How the heck did you end up going? How did Liberty get on your radar? um Well, i I did go to Christian High School in the woods. It wasn't a real school. Casey and you have a lot in common. Twinsies. Dude, it's the best, right? Like it's like the
Navigating College Pressures and Identity
00:19:28
Speaker
craziest. I don't know. It's just like, it's such a wild experience to go to a high school that's not real. Like not like a pretty shirt. Like got you guys, like for real, my teachers were not real teachers. Like they were just like parents of the other kids there. And they don't have to be. That sounds very similar to to mine.
00:19:51
Speaker
It was crazy. We were so bad. Like me and my friends, we would just, we would do pranks. They were really harmless, but like we would just climb out the windows and like run around outside. I mean, we just like didn't give a shit about anything. Like it was just free for all. Like it was just fun. And I received no education, uh, at all. Um, but yeah, so But you were able to go to college. Yes. Yes. Because, you know, Liberty, you know, they they really look at the people who are um putting in those applications and they really they really care about their grades and like all their credentials. You know, I don't really share the story. What? Sorry. Well, OK, for the listeners, there's a slight lag. So I didn't mean to interrupt. It sounded like things stopped. um
00:20:51
Speaker
I worked, speaking of liberty and the people they accept, I worked in the fulfillment office, so all the acceptance letters went out through my office. and part of my job was to sift through them all fairly quickly to like, cause people would try to submit applications under the craziest names. You know, you would hear the stories at Liberty of like, my dog got accepted to Liberty, like shit like that. People would just like make up whatever the fuck, apply to Liberty and get in. Um, but we, so we actually did have to, would keep an eye out for stuff like that. And we were, so we were, one day had to pull an acceptance letter because
00:21:34
Speaker
The first name was i I want to get fucked by a priest. That was the first name.
00:21:43
Speaker
and And we were sending the acceptance letter out. So it was just like, Jesus Christ, okay. I love the idea of them making like a big deal out of that too, like con staff meeting and being like, the enemy is ever present. yeah He roams like a ah like a roaming lion, seeking whom he may devour. You're like, we're not even a Catholic school. yeah Right, so obviously the person required doesn't know shit about shit, but we- Congratulations, LeVar Burton's a boomafoo.
00:22:21
Speaker
Wait, yeah damn I'm just like so confused by this. Can you explain this more? like Why are people sending in letters with like their dog's name to Liberty? I don't know. No, just because everyone was like... it was Liberty was just an easy school to get into. It was like, I went to Liberty because I got rejected by the 17 other schools I applied at. like that's So it's like a joke? Yeah, Liberty's like, we will take your money and in exchange for that, we will let any motherfucker come here. Okay. Some schools require an SAT score to get in. Liberty just requires a credit score. yeah Your parents' credit score. you Whoever's co-signing. Yeah, as long as you get a co-signer and a check for $30,000, you go to Liberty. Oh my God.
00:23:11
Speaker
So yeah, I went to a, I did the college for a weekend thing. so Yes, it got you too. Hell yeah. And I remember, I remember it. It was great. um I mean, you're on your own for the first time. You're far away from home probably. um Yeah, it was great. So, and now that was the only school that was like really my, on my, uh, list of colleges. And I didn't, it it was more of my mom. Like I didn't really, I wasn't motivated to really think about college. Um, I, I don't know. I was so young. I just, I didn't care. I didn't know what I wanted to do. So I was just like, okay, yeah, we'll.
00:23:58
Speaker
we'll go to virginia and do this thing i guess don't think that like it's I feel like kids pretty soon are not really going to understand the like the the how people viewed college when we were young because it was like, it doesn't matter what you do. It doesn't matter what you sign up for. like You need that piece of paper. like That was what everybody said. It was like, just go just go get a degree. like Get something general like business or communications.
00:24:29
Speaker
And ah you just need that piece of paper because that's what they look for on a resume. And it's like, what a great reason to get ah to to do $120,000 in debt. yeah ah Yeah, we all got okay. Yeah, first of all, yeah, we all got that same reasoning. And it's so funny, because they're like, it doesn't matter what you do. And I had like that crisis moment, my sophomore year, I i remember fucking like crying, I was like, in my hallway talking to friends like crying, like,
00:25:00
Speaker
I think I've fucked my myself well, I wouldn't have said it like that then. I think I ruined my life kind of shit. Like I'm getting a Bible degree. I don't want to be a pastor. I don't want to work in a church. Like what am I doing? I just did the thing that was easy for me. And I was like, I should switch to like computer science or something. Of course, you're on a dorm with a bunch of people who are in my friends were all fucking going to be school to be pastors and shit. So they're like, I think it's fine. You're And then you just think of the advice you just need the degree and you're like cool so i got that now i'm glad i'm glad i got my undergrad because i'm in my grad school program now when i needed that undergrad to change careers so fine it worked out. But that's just lock like it doesn't work out for so many people.
00:25:49
Speaker
And on a less serious note, there wasn't a single young man that went to college for a weekend that did not see a college student's dick and balls um on college for a week. They always did. At some point, some fucking weirdo came out naked, ran around. maybe jumped on somebody. ah Yeah, this is what it was like ah if you were visiting a mail's dorm in college, at least at Liberty. very disturb Yeah, it's definitely wildly inappropriate. That's who signs up to host college for a weekend, students. It's a little like a scout master. It's hazing, essentially. um umm So um your reaction is telling me that you had a different experience.
00:26:38
Speaker
Yeah, no, there weren't like naked females running around. I mean, that would have been cool, but that didn't happen. So like maybe I would have woken up earlier. Yeah, yeah, maybe I would have though. um No, I had I had kind of like a gay experience at Liberty, but I didn't go on my whole like queer journey to like way after Like when I was in my thirties, but oh man. Yeah. So at Liberty, you just sinned and you had thought about it for like the next 15 years. Uh, I don't know if I would, if I would say it like that, that's yeah, I don't know. It's good. At least you did it's a complicated journey, you know, like sexuality and just learning, um,
00:27:36
Speaker
Honestly, it's just about like learning to be okay with myself basically has been like my last like 20 years and a lot of not feeling okay with myself I think has come from like growing up in the church and um just being you know told all these messages about how like you're not enough or um Well, I think the biggest miss message is probably you're not enough. I mean, at least for me personally, that's um that's been my experience. But um I mean, like later on I did, my parents switched from the the Lutheran church when I was 14 and we started going to like a charismatic, like people with the flags, you know?
00:28:27
Speaker
Like running around ah Speaking in tongues. So I I've had a lot of weird church experiences that's hard and Transition Yes ah Was that okay the Christian high school you the Christian school you went to was that affiliated with this charismatic church? No, no, this was I don't even know what it was. It was just called like Trinity Christian Academy. It was in Peterborough, New Hampshire. Sorry, I have so many funny memories. I like can't keep a straight face talking about it. um My Christian school was Trinity Christian School. Isn't that weird? I think it's just like... Oh, it's actually Trinity Christian Academy. It was on Cape Cod, though. The name works, right? Yeah, that sounds good. Building was made out of whale bones. Ivory ah it Academy. Doesn't Academy sound more studious in school?
00:29:24
Speaker
Yeah, I think that's their way of trying to make it sound like, oh, this is like a fancy, I don't know, like a real school where are they're going to teach you things. you said I me and you you you have to push your phantom glasses up. I i pulled up my old school's website because when you said Trinity earlier, I was like, oh shit, that was my school. And I was looking at it and looking for like, I went to, I went straight to their tuition page and the tuition was probably much less when I was going. Cause that was 30 years ago. Um, but what's funny about it is.
00:30:07
Speaker
it's like grades one through five right now is ten thousand one hundred and thirty five dollars and then grade six is ten thousand four twenty seven grade seven is ten thousand nine forty five And when you get to 10 and 12, it goes up to 11, 2, 2, 6. And I think, I find it hilarious that they just have like that sliding scale. Cause they're like, well, they're already in it. People aren't going to want to pull their kids. So it's just like the deeper you are. It's like that sunken cost fallacy bullshit that they're just praying on. You are larger and take up more square footage. yeah
00:30:49
Speaker
ah god so dumb Anyway, sorry. So the college for a weekend and then, um, I mean, where, where were you at like through high school and stuff? And then like up to that point, I mean, were you still, were you still in it as far as Christianity goes or was the switching churches, did it kind of make you pull back and go, ah, this isn't it. So I never really like felt, uh, Like I believed any of it. i I wasn't like super into learning about the Bible. Like there's people like, Sam, I think you talk about how you, you're a total bible. Love that shit. Hell yeah.
00:31:35
Speaker
um That was my identity. It's just, I always felt so inferior to those people. Like those stupid Bible nerd people who they just like know all the verses. Like they're so annoying. Like, okay, great. You like you under so you know all the parables and everything. i just i never I never got into that, but there was one book that I i loved and that was Ephesians. and the fuck you actually i think i move the idea that like I don't know if you did I'm that's not why I'm saying what the fuck I'm just the idea that you're like I don't know about any of this but goddamn it did I love Ephesians wait I might have the
00:32:21
Speaker
the the book wrong. It's the book of the Bible. I got it wrong. It's not frickin' Ephesians. It's Ecclesiastes. It's where everything meaningless woe is Lamentations. It's like been the nihilistic, yeah the the the depressed apostle. I'm somebody who has to like find the meaning in everything. like I've always been like that. um you talk it Wait, you mean do you mean Lamentations? You said what? the one I thought the one where everyone hated every where the guy hated everything and wanted to kill himself was Lamentations. It might be that one too. There might be multiple books, but no, I am talking about Ecclesiastes. Okay. Yeah.
00:33:08
Speaker
It's just, it's so like depressing and beautiful and I just loved it. I just ate that shit up. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. Meaningless, meaningless. Utterly meaningless. Everything is meaningless. Great start to the book. Yes, Ecclesiastes. You know, all the drama, so theatrical. I love it. so um So much have I forgotten. And you can see now how useless that $60,000 Bible degree was.
00:33:40
Speaker
yeah um So what werere what were we talking about?
Post-College Self-Discovery and Growth
00:33:47
Speaker
Sorry. so you didn't really you just didn't It never really clicked with you, so you didn't feel like a... I mean, did you feel a guilt over that, that like it wasn't it just wasn't there for you? Or was it kind of like, yeah, this is just not for me? I think I did because like I have a bunch of journals. like I've always kept journals like pretty much my whole life. um So I have like journals from that time that all...
00:34:17
Speaker
and I'll go back and read which is like so cringe, you know, but it's like so fun. Awesome. Yeah, it's like pretty great to see some of the like horrible things I said or not horrible, but just I want to be like nice to myself because I was so young and like, it's like you don't you don't know what you're doing. But um, yeah, it's definitely some good entertainment to go back and read those. So yeah, I think I did feel feel some guilt, but at the same time, I feel like that I've always just known deep down inside that um I just want to like learn more about myself and be happy with who I am. And I've never really had like this, I don't have any memories of like being afraid of hell.
00:35:08
Speaker
Uh, like I wasn't one of those kids who was terrified of like burning in hell or anything like that. I just, it just didn't, none of that stuff felt like it really like got to me. It is, it is interesting. Like the stuff that you.
00:35:25
Speaker
Like the things that, the different things that like stuck with people throughout all of that, you know, the good things and the bad things. And like, it does seem to affect everybody a little different, but that's one that like, honestly, we don't hear a lot like that. Most of, most of the people we've talked to, like the fear of hell was like a big part of like what they found really scary and, and I guess, uh, traumatic about all that stuff. That's interesting that that wasn't a particular thing that that really stock stuck with you. Yeah. And I mean, I've, and I'm not saying I haven't had to deal with stuff. I mean, that just that thing in particular wasn't a struggle for me. um I think like most of my journey is just like been learning about how to accept myself and just like be like,
00:36:22
Speaker
I'm 38 now and I feel like I'm i'm just learning how to like be okay inside my own body and how to regulate my emotions in like a way that's actually helping me. and i mean that it's it's taken like it's It takes years of work um and um it's it's not ever going to end. um i don't You know, for as long as I'm alive, I'm going to keep, you know, hopefully like learning and growing, but yeah, it's just, it's been, it's a wild ride for sure. So what was Liberty like for you then? You get to strike out on your own. And I mean, did you, did you connect with people right off the bat and make friends or did you kind of struggle like through those first, the first year?
00:37:16
Speaker
And that's also a weird place to go when you don't care, like when you're like, yeah, like it it didn't really, I didn't like, there wasn't that full buy-in. I always in was it fascinated by the people who were at Liberty who didn't have that full buy-in too, because that can make making those connections and friendships complicated because you're going to be viewed as somebody's fucking mission field. Oh, that's the person who does it. Let me try. I know because I felt that way about people. Hey, sorry, guys. Well, I it's so complicated. I don't know how to really explain it. So, I mean, at one point, my um my major was youth ministry and but classes with Rich Brown. What's his name? Rich Brown, Richard. I don't. Was he the dude with like the brown hair?
00:38:10
Speaker
Yeah, like it kind of comb over, kind of like repeated himself a lot, asked like, would like ask questions and answer them. I don't remember. I remember. Anyway, sorry. He sounds forgettable. No. um he He actually thought that he like, yeah ah this guy fucking sucked. He believed wholeheartedly, he told the classes this that he came up with the term Christianese and that other people stole it from him. Talk about a fucking ego.
00:38:42
Speaker
What a stupid, that was his bone to pick. but Oh my God. Peanut butter and jelly in the same jar. That was my thing.
00:38:57
Speaker
All right. So yeah. Okay. Uh, did back to Casey's question. I feel like we have a little bit of a lag. So I don't know. Can you hear me? Are we good? Yeah, I can hear you. All right. Definitely. so Something going on though. Get as close to your router as possible. but Wherever your router is, just be as close to it as possible. My router? Yeah. Okay. big It's like in the basement. In my fucking closet. It's a like yeah yeah you're in a bomb shelter down the street. Your bunker. Probably doesn't help that my MacBook's from like 2015.
00:39:40
Speaker
um But yeah, no, Casey, your question. Yeah. like did you Was it with fun? like Did you enjoy Liberty when you went there?
Embracing Identity and Nonconformity
00:39:50
Speaker
Yes. I think that's why I loved it so much because like it was it was so much fun. like I loved all the people I met there. I had so many friends. like I thought I was so cool like I was going to hardcore shows and like my hair was like two different colors and I got my septum pierced and I was so like I think I did that my sophomore year but my yeah. Did you do the one inch bangs to go with it? Did you like the one inch bangs?
00:40:24
Speaker
Like the ones that swoop? like No, no, that's the side pull. That was hard as fuck. I'm talking like the ultra short bangs, like where it's like someone, you like take a pair of scissors and you just like go an inch from your hairline. I think that that was much later on. actually link thing for I feel like that was a thing for a little while. Maybe that was post-liberty. Lloyd Christmas. I did the swoop. I swooped hard and regrettably. I do not like pictures of me from pre-2020 2009. Yeah. Yeah. So, uh, I think I loved it so much because it was just so much fun. And like, I love being like sneaky and devious. Oh my God. Like if you want to like have fun and be sneaky, like Liberty is a place to go because you never
00:41:17
Speaker
you have a curfew of what like 10 10 allowed in each other's dorms I never thought about it from that perspective of just if the thrill is being sneaky and devious Liberty is the perfect but I've never thought about it like that right So, and i I mean, I'm just like that. I don't know why I just am but like, I get a kick out of like people who take things so seriously. um I, I think that's why I could, I could never like, really connect with like church and stuff. It just it seems so ridiculous to me because
00:42:01
Speaker
People took it so seriously and they were so certain about themselves. And I was like, this is, I don't know. I just, I can't, I can't buy it. For the listeners, convo was this thing we had to do if you're on campus Monday, Wednesday, Friday at 10 o'clock. You had to go, or you would get demerits, or what do they call them? Not demerits there. Reps? Reps. You get reps. You get reps. And reps were financial punishments for your parents. know They were like, there's like financial spankings, but your parents were the ones getting spanked. you guys like I had so, no, like I had so many reps for just like not making my bed. And then like, do you guys remember the Starbucks that was right? Like down the hill? Yeah. Walked to it from campus. So me and my roommate,
00:43:00
Speaker
My best friend there, Danielle, we would we would show up to convo and then we would check in with our RAs and then we would peace out and we would go to Starbucks. Like we did this for a long time. It took them a long time to catch us. But I love that. I love that's what I was going to bring up is whether or not you were a convo skipper. Oh yes, I was not going to sit through that. Are you telling me sucked Sarah Palin at convocation?
00:43:31
Speaker
probably
00:43:35
Speaker
a bear so Oh my gosh, it's so crazy to like. It's just, I'm so different now. I've been away from all of that for so long. It's just so crazy to like think back like 15, 20 years. Like I was like surrounded and immersed in this completely different world and this culture and like, it's, it's crazy. Dude. I remember like it was a big deal that like Mike Huckabee was going to come and speak. That like halfwit jerk off playing bass on Fox News at night. What a moron.
00:44:17
Speaker
and i feel like, oh fuck, I lost my train of thought. That sucks. And it's really embarrassing and annoying. I'm sorry I said that about Mike. Welcome to being in your 30s. No, I wasn't a combo skipper. I never had any sort of skips in me. I actually, when I worked at Liberty, I didn't have to go. But you could this was what's funny is it went from you not wanting to go, but you could if you wanted to go to convo, your your work couldn't tell you you couldn't. So you just got paid to go to convo. So we would we would go and you could watch it from Thomas Road Church. So we would just go to convos because I had the charade. I not wasn't a charade. I didn't care about convo, but everyone knew I was like,
00:45:05
Speaker
hard in so like i could just be like yeah of course i want to go to convo and we would sometimes just go up to the balcony of thomas road and watch it up there and just nap ah nice that's so fun do you guys remember seeing the people nodding off during convo like the notters they get poked ah What is so uncomfortable keeps and then it's like they're dancing and they're like it goes on forever. It's stuff like that that I miss, you know, they it's so funny to think the things that you because I oh actually remember I was going to say ah previously.
00:45:50
Speaker
I would be lying if I didn't say every several months I think because the church I grew up in, the one my parents still go to, they used to do like college for a weekend trips, the CFAR trips. I every once in a while still think, oh my God, I wish i oh I wish I had enough connections to enough church. I would love to chaperona college for a weekend trip so fucking bad right now. ah Just get paid to drive like a 15 passenger van full of dirt digging pieces of shit all the way down to Liberty. Oh my God. Did you ever go in the tunnels? Did I ever go in the tunnels? Yeah. No, I don't think so. But that sounds familiar, the tunnels. It was like a thing on campus where
00:46:42
Speaker
And I don't even know if we did it right because I heard other people say that they like literally pulled up a great in the like sidewalk over by the, by, ah you know, the vine center or whatever and went down there. But we went in through is basically just culverts and drainage pipes, you know for water movement, but you could basically go into these like culverts and stuff on campus somewhere up on the main campus there and it like all kind of led downhill and there was a couple of spots where you'd be outside for a minute and then you you'd kick back in and And if you, if you stayed in the whole time, it would, it would spit you out right at the front of the Walmart parking lot. Like on the other side of that, that big main road there, where, where the Starbucks was Thomas was it no wards road. Yeah. Yes. It was basically like before they had the wards road bridge, they had the, talk like the fact that Liberty was like,
00:47:45
Speaker
I remember they got in this big fight with the city about who was but financially responsible for building a bridge that went over Ward's Road so students could walk to Walmart safely. And it's like, they just should have told the kids about the tunnel.
00:48:03
Speaker
Liberty's like, oh we're building like a ah an indoor skydiving arena right now, so we don't have the funds to build a pedestrian bridge. I know. We're building a giant cannon that shoots students across campus. yeah A zipline that goes from dorm to dorm. That you have to pay for though, because you know they want their money for that. yeah yeah You want to ride the like community bus that just smells like farts and the seats are all sticky. like Or you can buy the gondola pass.
00:48:39
Speaker
it but
00:48:44
Speaker
So did you ever end up in like any serious trouble at Liberty? Like, did you have to work in the dining hall or anything like that because of your reps? No, no, I somehow I managed to ah get by without any of that. I don't. i don't really know if you don't gap to wendy it once you don't have that problem it's like when they trickle in they just take your money but when like if you get eighteen at once or something like that they can reprimend you harder
00:49:16
Speaker
because april had a bunch been harder yeah she got caught going to whatever that Justin Timberlake movie that's like something dogs or something like that or dog pound or some throwaway movie that was rated R. She like accidentally told her RA about it and they wrote her up. And so she had to work in the dining hall for and for them follow saturday like so Would you like visit her? You would like just hang out there all week so you could like be by her.
00:49:50
Speaker
So it was before we started dating, we had hung out once at like Christmas time. And this would have been like midway through the semester in the spring semester. And I remember she was working where I was like, it was like me and Ryan and Dan were in there eating. And I'm like, Oh, hey, it's that girl. And so she like came over and she had the little like, the goofy hat on and the little apron and stuff. And she was sitting there talking to us and then this like mouth breather dude who was a ah manager there comes over and he's like, if you're just going to stand around and talk, then I'm not going to give you credit for your hours.
00:50:30
Speaker
I needed like went back to the kitchen. Alpha Dog was the movie. That's the one. And it was a legitimately good movie. That was good. ah bo and Casey, the way that you and April met was when she was fulfilling her punishment in the Liberty Dining Hall. We that was the second time that I remember talking to her because the first time we met like during the remember like they would do the Christmas dinner thing and they'd have Santa Claus in the ah in the dining hall. So the first time that we met was in the dining hall that night. And there's a picture of like me and Ryan and Dan and Chad and then April.
00:51:15
Speaker
And we're all like kind of sitting on Santa's lap. And that's literally like we have a picture of the first day that we met. yeah It's floating around somewhere. Yeah. in the ether Yeah. That was the man. It is kind of like you do feel kind of bad in a way because like we've talked to so many people that were like that had a terrible time at Liberty, you know, that we're going through like conversion therapy and stuff. And you're like, Oh my God. Yeah. And I've listened to some of those episodes and like, I was.
00:51:50
Speaker
I mean, I obviously didn't experience that when I was there and I just like, I feel it just, I was like, this stuff was going on when I was there and I had no idea. Like, I don't know. It just, it does feel shitty. Yeah. I mean, it is what it is, I guess, but it was, it was fun. Cause it was like my, for me, it was like my, I did a year in a, in a, like a regular college, like a small, regular college. And, uh, it was too much freedom, too much being out of the house for the first time. It kind of scared me. And so then I transferred to Liberty and that was like just enough. It was like he couldn't stop normal life. when Liberty was like, you can't do that here. And he's like, thank God let somebody tell me no, ah please.
00:52:42
Speaker
No, but it was it was like, I feel like I kind of had the same thing. like I didn't want to get in any real trouble, but it was fun to be in fake trouble because you broke the liberty rules. It's like yeah Christian kid rebellion. Yes, for me, it's just always been like, it's seriously not a big deal, guys. like it's really like It's okay, but like for some reason, the they these are the rules and they're really strict and if you break them like that that says everything about who you are as a person morally and like i don't know it's just so so crazy so you ended up dropping out and and taking off from liberty huh i did yeah um so my sophomore year
00:53:31
Speaker
ah So my freshman year I did good academically, but then like my sophomore year i just um I realized that I wanted to get more into my creative side and doing art and drawing. so i um I spent like my last semester there, I just like sat in the computer lab all the time and just like mess around on Photoshop. And I think I like failed most of my classes. And um yeah, and then I just, I didn't want to do it anymore. So I i went back and stayed with my parents um who were at that time
00:54:18
Speaker
they we we relocated to Vermont when I was in high school, or when I was a senior in high school. So. Wait, sorry, clarification.
Reflections on Different Geographical Experiences
00:54:30
Speaker
You relocated to Vermont when you were a senior in high school. I thought you were in Vermont before that. when No, I grew up in New Hampshire. Oh, sorry, yeah. Then you moved to Vermont when you were seeing when you were a senior in high school. Yeah. And so when you left Liberty, you went back to Vermont. Yep, then I went to Vermont and I lived there for not long, um maybe like a couple of years. My brain will never ever not interchange Vermont and New Hampshire in an embarrassing way. So like you said, Vermont,
00:55:09
Speaker
I know you said Keene, New Hampshire before, but I'm like, and I can't, I do that constantly. I have a good friend of mine, lives he's got a house in Vermont. We go to Vermont and I've been like, are you in New Hampshire this weekend? like i They're the same fucking place to me. My brain just goes, that's one thing that I'm going to confuse indefinitely forever is Vermont, New Hampshire. And it's being from Massachusetts, very embarrassing. so Well, Vermont's totally different than New Hampshire, Sam, so I don't even know how. It really is, because Vermont, you can walk around naked. You can just be naked in Vermont. No one can stop you.
00:55:49
Speaker
I mean, in the I mean, Vermont's beautiful. There's no billboards are illegal there, or at least they were. in there They still are. I only just learned that like three weeks ago, that that's like an illegal thing. As soon as you cross into Vermont, there is no more billboards on the highway. They want to keep that shit pristine. Yeah, like the way it should be. Right. I don't know. Vermont's beautiful. I think it's really beautiful states and I appreciate that they are such sticklers about ah like not changing certain, I guess laws or regulations. I have one of them being the billboards. I yeah, I get it. I feel like Vermont.
00:56:33
Speaker
My friend that and I have talked about like a good bit where like you go to Vermont and you're like, this is crazy. like When it comes to the way people look and what they do, you're not going to be like, that's a conservative, that's a liberal. like It truly is like they have different like they have different values when it comes to several different things. right but like I feel like without being annoying in a libertarian sense about it, like Vermont is very much just like feels like the last state on earth where liberals and conservatives can get along and just be like, yeah, you do you, I'll do me. And we'll just love that we get to do what the fuck we want in a beautiful place with no billboards like it feels like a place where they actually can get along and work together like they might
00:57:23
Speaker
They might, they might both work a construction job or be park rangers together. I don't know, but it just, it feels so much like less of like, you just, there's not a lot of people. Everyone just seems pretty chill. I don't know. I love it. Whenever I go up there, I love it. Maybe there's something to the not having billboards. I think that's the key in all of this. You don't have to look at like anti-abortion ads every time you drive to work. Seriously, that's where she cost one human life. It's like that's so witty. That's so witty. You guys are great. That's that's so funny. Yeah, buildboard it's got to be. it That's like that's that's the culture war. That's this that's where the culture war begins. It's billboards. Can we talk about Texas billboards for a second? I bet they're crazy. Go ahead. I'd love to hear about Texas billboards. dude okay so they're really really obnoxious about billboards with lawyers
00:58:25
Speaker
boy And they're always awful. And these are not just like, you know, lawyers who are smiling. And it's like, these lawyers are holding like a fucking axe. I'm not kidding. so There's this one dude, his name is like Jim Adler. He like has a he's holding an axe. Like he's a guy seen his commercials with somebody. And it's like the billboards here, it's like the Texas are, they're so obsessed with violence and like being aggressive and like, you see it in those lawyer billboards for sure. It's, it's honestly like, it's kind of disturbing. Like when I- Does the axe guy have like a tagline on there?
00:59:15
Speaker
Um, there's no tackling for the acts. It's just kind of like, I think his signature thing. Caught the crap. jim uncle or lockter head like i don know I'll ask a lot of questions. There was a funny one though, that wasn't aggressive and I saw it one time and I never saw it again. I'm so so upset because I so wanted to take a picture of it. it said something it had like a plate of nachos and it the guy's name I don't remember what it was and then it said something about like nacho nacho typical lawyer really yeah amazing that's like news car lot level yeah advertising it was great oh there was
01:00:10
Speaker
Detroit when I still lived up in Michigan, I'm sure it's I'm sure she's still around but there was like this, you know tacky You know workplace Like her to work called Joe man. Her name was like Joe manna or something like that and she was she she was looked like an maybe Eastern European lady and over the years like she she had a lot of procedures done and like she got more and more like bizarre looking, and her face is on every billboard. So like over the years, she just kept getting progressively like more and more bizarre looking, like this just like huge lips and like pulled back like you know like the the Botox and stuff. Not not in a way that like a person's like, I just wanna take the edge off like some things or whatever. like She was like, I'm making that law firm money. um Give me one of everything, not make it two.
01:01:08
Speaker
um Yeah.
01:01:13
Speaker
and yeah and Is this in Kansas, right? This was in Detroit. Detroit. Well, also an area that probably doesn't have the world's best plastic surgeons. I feel like if you're if you're getting plastic surgery and you're like really going for it and you're not in New York or l LA, then you're just making a bad decision. you guys Have you ever known anybody that went and did like that like ah like a whole industry of around people who who will like fly to El Paso or you know some part of South Texas and they drive over the border and have like plastic surgery done in Mexico for like way cheaper and then come back? Yeah, that's the thing.
01:01:59
Speaker
i don't know what the whats Is there any like rumors about the quality of and safety of those procedures? or oh Are you talking about like plastic surgery, like facial plastic surgery? I think just a number of different things. Like I think you could, the, well, the person that I knew that did it, I think they had like some sort of dental, like cosmetic surgery done and they like drove somewhere, you know, like, so I think they flew into like El Paso and drove down into, into Mexico from there, had the procedure done and then like went back over the border. And I dunno, it's just, ah it's just this strange.
01:02:41
Speaker
It's actually for people who live in that area, like in the areas where that's possible. Like it's like medical care. You're like, I can, it's actually cheaper for me to not have health insurance and just pay out of pocket. If I go over, it before like that's how it is everywhere. It's like. It's literally crazy how expensive everything is when it comes to anything medical in this country where you can pay less by going over the border, paying out of pocket. I mean, you could even go to the UK and spend 20%.
Spiritual Transformation and Personal Growth
01:03:13
Speaker
If you need a prosthetic, it's like,
01:03:16
Speaker
You pay 20% of what you'd pay here for a prosthetic limb. And you're just like, this is so silly. I think it's one thing if you're like, I really need this knee surgery. I'm in pain versus like, I need some calf implants filled with fixa flat. I will never forget what there is an MTV show. And I don't even remember what it was, but that was the first time I heard of calf implants. Like there was a guy who was like, I go running, I do all these workouts and my calves don't look the way I want them to. And he went and got calf implants. And I i was 12 watching this and it was just like, what the fuck? People care about calves. I've never thought about my calves in my life. And then here we are. I honestly don't think I've ever heard of that.
01:04:06
Speaker
I think that's like an LA dude thing. kind i've I mean, of course, I grew up, we all grew up. I mean, it doesn't matter. Okay, here's, we get it. If you grew up at Christian, you can maybe hate your body a little bit extra, but we live in America. Everybody hates their bodies, okay? gro We're not happy. clothing None of us are happy. We have to look at beautiful people on TV all the fucking time. You're gonna tell me I have to be happy after growing up looking at that? Shut the fuck up.
01:04:42
Speaker
It's true, though. All right. All right. All right. Back to you. So we you you leave Liberty. ah you're You're in the library. You're doing graphic design. You're just and exploring you' your artistic sensibilities. And then you just stop going to class so much. Things aren't working out school-wise as much as you're trying to indulge your ah creative passions. Yes, so I went back to Vermont, spent a couple years, I think it was two years.
01:05:18
Speaker
there. I mean, so during my 20s, I did move around a lot. I don't expect anyone to remember the timeline of all the states I lived in because it it's kind of all over the place. But um yeah, I was in Vermont for a couple years. And I just went to like a community college there and just did like a couple art classes and I really liked it. And then I met somebody excuse me, online. And I ended up actually moving to Florida to be with them. And I ended up getting married to them when I was like 22. Oh, wow. Yes. That moves pretty fast. Yeah, so we were we were married. That was before Florida was a big red flag.
01:06:08
Speaker
I mean, it probably was at the time. well and i didn't I just was too ignorant. I just didn't know at that time. but um No offense, Mark and Mike and Andy and all the people we love from Florida.
01:06:25
Speaker
um so yeah i I lived there for like five years. and then i I moved to ah Minneapolis and I lived there for like nine years and now I'm here in Texas. So when you got when you got married to the person that was in Florida, when you moved away from Florida, was that the was that because you were- Yeah, that did work out. so that that was like a um like I met this person online and like we started talking and like I just fell so in love with them and I was so young and I just thought they were like my soulmate. So I convinced my parents that it was a good idea for me to just up and leave in my Buick and go live in Florida.
01:07:21
Speaker
and just keep working at a coffee shop and well I mean I talk about this like it was a mistake or something I don't regret any of it I really don't I don't regret a lot of my experiences um so I mean yeah that was that was a time where I just I was young and in my 20s and just trying to figure out life. I did go to college when I was there. Again, I went to community college. I did art classes, but I mean, ultimately I didn't, I didn't, it didn't end up going to art school. Um, I, I ended up getting a degree in like human services later on when I lived in Minnesota, but yeah, so.
01:08:12
Speaker
Ended up in Minneapolis. I feel like Minneapolis is a pretty cool city. Like what I've done there, there was a lot of like, I don't know, I felt like there was like kind of a cool culture there. Yeah. Um, I'm definitely like a person who I just like, I seem to really gravitate more toward the Northern States, like the Northern parts. Um, and- As she says from Texas. Yeah, now I'm in Texas.
01:08:43
Speaker
but um So um I know when I went there, I mean, I did end up getting married again. again, that didn't work out later on. um But I, man, I don't even know how to get into all that. I was there for nine years and it just, it was like my first time living in like an actual like city city. And I, finished my degree there like right before I left and came to Texas. And I, I don't know, I just went through a lot of changes.
01:09:24
Speaker
I don't even know like, how to talk about all that. But yeah, it's crazy. So after I mean, Florida, Minneapolis, after you left Liberty, did you have any were did you have any more sense of like, I should do church? I'm a Christian. I'm not a Christian. Like, what? Because that can be a weird time, right? We go to Liberty. It's a bubble. We're surrounded by it. Even if regardless of how you feel or where you're drifting, like there's only so far to go, like you're in such a bubble where you're like, this is what we are. This is what we do. Even if you don't go to church, like it's just such a huge part of everything around us and what's surrounding us and the people we know. And we know people who are like, I don't know anymore. And we have people who are like, yeah, I'm all about it. But we have friends across that spectrum.
01:10:13
Speaker
and we all have an idea of where we're at and then you leave that bubble you're not at home anymore you're not in the liberty bubble you get out is it on your radar at all anymore I don't I don't think so. I think i was I was just so invested in doing my artwork and like my relationships and going to shows. and like I was getting into like some of the music scene in Burlington and new people there and I was able to like make some flyers for bands. and i
01:10:49
Speaker
I was just like, I don't know, I was in my own world and Liberty was now like a chapter of my life that was over. And I still had connections and friends that were still there, of course, but for me, it was um something that just didn't work out. I think I did feel like a failure though, because you know like dropping out of college isn't like the best feeling. Especially after your parents had so much like high hopes for you. like I know my parents at the time were disappointed that I hadn't you know done the standard, like go to college and do your four years and get your degree, but like I don't know. I just don't really do things the standard way. i'm just I don't know why. I just don't. I never have. so
01:11:44
Speaker
Do you think about that much at all? I mean, obviously, yeah, you've we've connected. We've talked growing up Christian experiences. we're in the You're in our Discord. we're
01:11:59
Speaker
there's There's a lot about your life that still is like you know connecting you to those those past experiences, those those past ideas, but do you think about it much anymore? ah like Or in what way do you think about it? It's so hard to talk about this. I feel like you're trying to get at something, but i I'm trying to get at where you're at. i This isn't like a, I'm not trying to pull anything. where it Just spirituality and I mean, like, does spirituality take like a different form for you now? Or are you kind of like apathetic towards those sorts of things in general? I mean, because I feel like that's kind of yeah where I am. Like I, when I finally like said, I don't think that this means anything to me.
01:12:50
Speaker
And I'm going to stop pretending that it does like it didn't leave behind a hole that I felt like I needed to fill. Like I don't really feel any any need to go looking for some other form of spirituality. It just for just me personally, like it doesn't really mean much to me. Mm hmm. I'm just thinking, yeah, how to talk about this. So can I just tell you guys quick about this crazy weird experience I had when I was 14? that yes was a very, I don't know what it was. I'll never know. It was just weird. But before you get into your experience when you're 14, I'm going to do my regular podcast P Casey and you have to. All right. One sec. All right. All right. I have peed. We are good. Listen,
01:13:42
Speaker
If when you have to pee, everybody knows, everyone knows a time in their life where they've had to pee, but they're listening to something or someone, your concentration goes out the window. You're, you're done. All you're thinking about is not pissing your pants in front of people. So these are necessary losses. You don't have to apologize for taking care of your needs. Thank you. It's totally okay. It's called self-care. Self-care is just peeing. It is though. It seriously is. The bar is so low for self-care now. It really is though. It really is. All right. What happened when you were 14? Oh my God. Okay. So when I was 14, I went to this Christian camp in Swansea, New Hampshire.
01:14:33
Speaker
which I like cried so hard when I said bye to my parents as if I was like gonna be like six hours away from them and it was literally, I think it was maybe like 20 minutes away from them. But I was such a baby um and it was a Christian camp and it was very much like, we're gonna gather together every night in the in the wreck paul or whatever they call it and we're gonna, you know, there's a band and they're gonna sing songs and you're gonna like jump up and down and feel a certain way and it it totally freaked me out. Like i I remember feeling like super uncomfortable and
01:15:22
Speaker
I did not like it. I remember the first couple days were just really, it was really awkward. I didn't, I didn't feel like I belonged there. And then, um, so there was this one night where we were doing our little like church service thing we did every night. And there was this, um, I don't want to call it like, it wasn't like a ah play. It was like a there was no talking. It was just like a very short um shit. I don't have words. It was like a performance with like actors. Kind of a skit type thing. Yeah, it was like a skit, but it didn't have any words. And I think that made it really powerful or that much more powerful because there was no talking in it.
01:16:19
Speaker
but there is this there was this girl who was like the the main person and she was just going around to all these different people in her life. Like her, I think first there were like her parents and then later on it was like a boyfriend and then other people. Well, every time she, you could tell she was sad and she was trying to find I guess, love or belonging. And every time she would go up to these significant people in her life, they would take this ah paper heart that she was holding. So she had like this big paper heart. Oh, Sam, you're laughing. No, I just know this move. what is going to be i know this move And they ripped a part of her heart off.
01:17:15
Speaker
and kept the peace, of course, and then gave her heart back to her. So I watched this and I don't know what was going on with me or what happened in that moment, but I was I was sobbing. Like it it really it did something to me. It just really struck something. inside of me when I saw that. And so I at the time being 14 years old and, you know, being in this culture of like Christianity um and being at this Christian camp, I just just i I just thought, you know, oh, this must mean that I just got saved.
01:18:03
Speaker
Which like, you know, because I think a lot I think it's safe to say a lot of evangelical Christianity is about like the theatrical like the emotions and stuff like that. So I, being a very emotional person, like thought that Christ had just like come into my heart, I guess. And laid his eggs in you. Yeah.
01:18:32
Speaker
Um, so for the rest of the week, I had a blast. I made friends there. I, I had so much fun. I just, I felt, I felt like I had changed. I really did. That's the crazy part. Like I, I felt. I felt like something was different and like something was alive in me. And so I went back home and you know, of course I told my mom, my dad, my mom was like so happy. And that's when we started going to that like crazy, charismatic church. So was that in response to your experience or was it coincidental? I think it was very much in response to it. Okay.
01:19:19
Speaker
so it was like my whatever and obviously I'm not saying I got saved like I don't believe in that um something happened like I don't I even sometimes get emotional like talking about it it's so weird like I don't I don't understand it but um I mean it did like create like a shift within my family like we started going to like a different church after that and Um, so yeah, I mean that when you're talking about spirituality and stuff, like, I just feel like it's necessary to share that experience. And it's so funny to share it because it's like, I don't know what the fuck happened. Like I really don't. Um, but I,
01:20:13
Speaker
Yeah, it's April actually had the same thing like they did the she she was at a youth thing and they for them they separated the girls from the boys and it was more part of the like don't have sex talk, but they had to like cut out a heart, you know, make a heart out of construction paper. And then it sounds a lot less. ah Effective and poetic the way that they did it, but they're like so let's say you have a crush on a boy, huh? You just it's just it's innocent It's just a crush, but you know, you're giving a piece of your heart to that boy So you got to tear off a piece and they did that like over and over and over again And then they were like now look at what's left. This is what you have left to give to your husband and
01:20:59
Speaker
Oh, that's so disgusting. You're where this is pretty. Nobody wants this. Like that was so. Oh, we did. That's why I was at one point and we actually did like a T-shirt. It was like a GC T-shirt and on the back it had a heart that was all tape right back together. Yeah, it was taped back together from pieces. It's so sad that really that messes. stuff like that mess me up, you know, those games are wild. It's a different way to communicate that message because it's, it's, it works because it's grounded in some sense of reality and that like, you can, as a person give to somebody in a way that does cost you emotionally that takes time to recover from. I think the way that evangelicalism like
01:21:54
Speaker
co-ops that as they make it sound like it's an irreparable damage that's done versus something that just takes time as anything as any loss does any loss takes time or you lose someone in your family you lose you hear about your someone you haven't talked to in 10 years that you were close to in high school and you hear that they died boom that takes something like every everything in life is like this emotional give and take there's there's cost and there's like things that add value like you can just
01:22:27
Speaker
I think that's what's the permanency of what evangelicalism tries to communicate, like tries to instill of like, oh, you gave a piece of yourself to somebody, you never get that back. You will never be whole again. And that's what's so fucked. But it's like, it's not that there isn't which and that. So hearing your version of that Jillian and how that story impacted you of someone who gave, you can hear stories where someone gives so much of themselves and they got hurt from it and go, I feel that, I feel that. But yeah what evangelical, evangelicalism gets wrong is that the part that you gave, you can never get back. you could it's It'd be like, then it's like them saying like,
01:23:15
Speaker
Oh, you cut off your hand and gave it to someone versus you, you peeled off a layer skin. It's like it can, you can regenerate. you can be whole again, but evenvange it's evangelicalism can't do that message because you can't be whole without God or Jesus or whatever. And I think that's what's even more confusing about that message, Casey. It was just like, they do this object lesson. They go, this is what you have left to give to your husband. There is there was never, I mean, week I got it with a
01:23:51
Speaker
varying messages. You might get the chewed bubble gum thing. You might get like there's just so many versions of that. But what you never got as a youth group kid was that like a restorative message, even a misguided one that goes, but Jesus can fix this for you. It was just like, no, this is all you have left. You're fucking this for the rest of your life. And you're just lucky that Jesus can make do with that shit. Like that doesn't, that's not healing. That's fucking so damaging to your psychology. Well, it's all it's all based in um fear and like guilt and making you feel like so bad about basically like, what like being human, like humans have said, like we're sexual beings, you know, of course, I'm not saying that 13 year olds should be like, you know, engaging in that or whatever, but like,
01:24:43
Speaker
You guys know what I mean. like yeah You're being punished for having a human experience in making... like That's why they have to lower the threshold so much for what qualifies as transgression. you know And they do that in a lot of different instances. And it's just kind of a natural... progress When nobody's really doing anything terrible, like little things become big things. They just get made that way. and i but i think like with When it came to like the purity message and stuff like nobody in my school dated anyone. Nobody had a boyfriend or a girlfriend. Like there was nothing going on, but still it was just like, it was so important that like, you know, ahead of time, cause you're going to be in a scenario one day and somebody's going to hand you a condom and you're going to think that it's okay. And there's no consequences, but let me tell you something there is.
01:25:32
Speaker
put this on right now, get hard and put this on. You're like, I don't like to do it. I'm trying, I'm trying. It's awful though. There's just so much like fear and obsession about like these like sex, like the sex before a marriage thing. and it i mean i think that that's an example of like why like evangelical christianity i never could really take it seriously because i feel like everybody's just freaking out all the time about all this crazy shit that's like i don't know it that's a choice right like you can choose to like freak out about that stuff and be like anxious and ah
01:26:19
Speaker
afraid about, you know, it's just, yeah. It's, it's back to the zero sum game though, that they've made it where it's like, all right, this is a little heavy handed and maybe it's a little icky, but you know, the bottom line is, is that we need kids saved because we don't know what's coming tomorrow. Jesus could come back tomorrow and if they're not saved, they're going to help, you know? So like, I'm sorry that you feel bad about yourself, but I'm trying to help you, you know?
01:26:51
Speaker
And like not everybody felt that way, but I think that's also where like in church, in those environments, like the, the, the nuttiest people are the loudest in the meeting. And they end up being the ones that kind of like set the tone for whatever's going to happen. I love talking about christian like hearing people's Christian camp stories because Christian camp was insane. Like looking back on it. It's like they put you in this pressure cooker and then just try to like like they they deprive you of sleep. You're eating nothing but hot dog buns all week. And then they're like trying to make you make like lifelong commitments and like reaffirm your life to Christ and agree to throw out your CDs when you get home.
01:27:39
Speaker
the white guy They're insane and like but always laugh about it, but it's like, you know, my dad's not taking a week off of work to go be a Christian camp counselor. You know, he's got stuff to do. He has a real job. Like he's doing things, you know, like the people who did were usually nuts.
01:28:01
Speaker
Yeah, for sure. I did go back the the next year and i i I wasn't like a counselor because I was still like a kid. um i was like fifty I would have been 15, but I went back as like, a I don't know, I guess it would have been like a counselor in training or something. and yeah But then after that, that yeah i I didn't continue with it after doing that. I my first year of camp because we did a wanna camp every year like in the summertime for a week.
The Camp Experience and Cultural Reflections
01:28:38
Speaker
And so if you did your if you got all your wanna stuff done for your like age group you qualified to go to the camp.
01:28:46
Speaker
and um The first year that I went, I felt a lot like you talked about where it just, everything felt wrong. Like I felt like a square peg in a round hole the entire time. Like everybody's having fun except me. You know, all of my friends were in the like older kid group. So they were in separate cabins and they were in separate like chapel services and stuff. And it was just like me and this kid that I didn't really know very well were the only ones from my church that were in the cabin together.
01:29:17
Speaker
And I didn't really connect with the guys in there. And then I like embarrassed myself in front of this girl that I liked. And like, it was just like the most miserable week of my junior high years. But then I went back the next couple of years and it was fun, you know, but I don't know. It's funny how, um, just the, the, the significance that things take on when you're that age, you know, Yeah. I wonder if there's like a doc, a documentary about these, the Christian camps, like back in the like late nineties, Jesus camps. That's a little bit different. yeah i think i went through anything like that as a doozy yeah i would love to see a jesus camp reunion doc where like we can see how many of those kids are like militia members now or whatever yeah yeah the jesus camp to proud boy pipeline yeah
01:30:18
Speaker
Oh, man.
Leaving Liberty and Evolving Perspectives
01:30:20
Speaker
So, Jillian, I mean, so where where are you at now with some with this shit? Like, it seems like you've failed. It seems like you left Liberty. You kind of just went about your life and you've thought about here and there. This seems to have rekindled maybe some of the way you think about it, kind of ah reengaging with some of these past experiences. Maybe you've been doing that previously, but um yeah, like where where are you at now? So I feel like to talk about that I have to talk about like other stuff that's happened so I won't like talk about it for too long but like when I lived in Minneapolis I mean like no I wasn't like going to church or anything for a long time but then I ended up in a relationship with somebody the person that I did end up being married to later on um and later on we got divorced but
01:31:17
Speaker
when we started dating he was going to this like house church thing and he was like oh you should come with me so like and he like him and I are still friends and like we've always just not felt that connection to really I guess I would call it religion I don't know um And he grew up in like a super, like his parents are real hardcore. Like I, if I thought mine were bad, like, no, his parents were super intense. Um, but he, he was trying to find himself, but thought, you know, I still kind of felt like church was what I needed if I wanted to figure it out or figure myself out. Because everybody around me, you know, my mom and then like,
01:32:13
Speaker
people are telling me that like that's, you know, you need God in your life. Like you have, are you going to church? Like, are you okay? Blah, blah, blah. Well, if you're not going to church, then you're not okay. You know, just that constant like fear. Um, so I went to this house church with him. It turned out to be like this, kind of like this commune thing.
Communal Living and Its Challenges
01:32:38
Speaker
It was like this giant house. You guys, your body language. Oh my God. that was Well, you mentioned it earlier. I was, I forgot about what earlier when you said commune. Yeah. And I know like when we think of commune, we probably think of like, everyone's wearing white clothes and like singing songs and
01:33:01
Speaker
Like, I don't know. I mean, there was a lot of the singing song stuff, but it was- I think at least one person in it has, is white and has dreadlocks. No, there wasn't. All right. That's what I think you could have joined in that person. I could have at one point in my life joined. You totally could have. hello But it was like this giant, and I mean like giant house that stuck out like a sore thumb, like in this neighborhood of like much smaller houses. And it was a husband and wife who had moved to the States from Ireland like many years ago.
01:33:42
Speaker
They had like a really big family, their kids were all grown up, had left home, except for one of them. He was really interesting and made my life hell while I lived there. um and This is Minneapolis? Is it? Yeah, I mean, technically, it's Robin's Dale, which is sure. That's fine. I just there's so much of what you're saying that sounds like a similar thing in in Lynchburg. That's why I don't know if you could see that on my face, but I'm like, or Waco. Yeah, I guess these house churches are.
01:34:20
Speaker
They're everywhere, I guess, but, um, so anyway, these people, this husband and wife had, had like started their own like intentional Christian community. And it was like, the house was so big and it was like actually cut up into like three sections. So, um, well, that there were just like four levels to the house and it just kind of worked out that like, um, Like a bunch of us younger people, like in our twenties, ended up living there and moving in and like being a part of this, this community that they were trying to create. So, um, it's there, there were good things and, you know, there's pros and cons. I'm not going to bash the entire thing I met. I did meet some.
01:35:15
Speaker
ah people who I became very, very close with who are very dear to my heart and I will love them forever. I met some really great friends while I was there. um And so that that was a very good part of it. But as time went on and I lived there for a couple years, um, things just started. it It was the power dynamic of the, the couple, mostly the, well, both of them really, but there was just like this power struggle going on and I don't do well with authority. And especially like if you're like expecting me to do like ridiculous things, like I just, I don't know, like,
01:36:05
Speaker
we would have these, um I don't know what you would call them, we would have like these get togethers like once every couple months where like all these other people would like drive in, they would like travel and like come stay at the house and we would have like this weekend together. And the whole x experience i don't really know what to call it but it was based off of this book i can't remember what the book was i i should have figured that out before i came on here but um is it written by shane claybourne and was it the irresistible revolution no i feel like that made so many people go like i'm gonna do a community house yeah
01:36:53
Speaker
No, it wasn't him. um But it it was just some guy who wrote this like Christian book about like these steps that you need to go through to like release like whatever like pain you have inside of you. And whatever like you're holding on to, there's these steps that he's outlined. And you need they were like very specific. And so we would like We would like split up into small groups and like pray with, but we would have people pray over us and stuff. And, um, I don't know. It just got to the point where I was like, I just, I don't know. This seemed like maybe it was like, I guess. Yeah. And then, um, when the 2016 election hit, like right before that, just everything really fell apart in that, in that house, like a,
01:37:51
Speaker
a bunch of us left like at the same time. oh And it wasn't it really wasn't like any like singular event that happened. It was just it just wasn't working anymore. And it was time for us to all just like go our own ways.
Exploration of New Spiritual Ideas
01:38:10
Speaker
So um that at that point, I was getting really into people like Richard Rohr and like The Mystics and um listening to, I don't know if you guys had ever heard of the Liturgis podcast. Yeah. Yeah. That was with ah Science Mike before he was Science Mike. Yes. Yes. And ah Michael Gunger. Gunger. And he got, dude, that guy went.
01:38:41
Speaker
He's annoying as fuck to me. What do you mean? Tell me. I just think he lost the plot. He just got so far up his asshole that he's like thinks he's like, I don't know. I think he thinks he's like spiritual energy at this point. And ever yeah he thinks he asks like these questions and then people will respond and he's like thinks it's like it's that gotcha bullshit we grew up with. But in the form of questions, it's still that fucking gotcha shit. I don't know. He lost the plot. big time. I don't know what that dude's fucking deal is, but God, Dan, did he get annoying as fuck? Yeah. Yeah. No, I'd love to have him on the podcast. What? I'd love to have him on the podcast. Oh, I would love to ask you. I've never asked him. I i don't know. I might. I might actually hate it now.
01:39:33
Speaker
Like I wonder, I know the letter just like it a it eventually evolved into something much bigger. But when I was listening, it was like 2016, 2017. And it was like, it was like little conversations recorded that they would have on Patreon. Yeah. Just him and Science Mike. And I would listen to them. And it was like that that was the start of my like what they call like deconstruction, I guess. um But I started listening to them and it it totally blew my mind. like i i was going through I was just going through so much change and I was also going back to school and it's so embarrassing to say, but I was just like learning about things I'd never learned about before in the world.
01:40:29
Speaker
Yeah. And oh, I remember painting my staircase, listening to that podcast and being like, this is making a huge I knew things were changing for me. Like they gave words to feelings and you just go, oh, fuck. And it's just like that. I don't have to. I can just think about things differently, just hearing other people talk about it in a way that makes sense. and they articulate it in a way that goes, this isn't just some idiot talking. This is making sense, and this is meaningful, and it's it's not fringe. This is human, not fringe. ah it might it's It's a shift in vocab, but it's encapsulating with a new vocabulary the experiences that I've been having. What does it say about me that I was doing that but listening to Joe Rogan experience?
01:41:22
Speaker
I did that a little bit. I dabbled in some Joe Rogan, mostly because my partner at the time was listening, but yeah. Did you watch Joe Rogan beat up Shane Gillis? Did I know? I feel like Casey would have seen that. and They had a rush like that, I guess. I don't know. YouTube thinks that I want to watch it. YouTube, I've never gone on YouTube in the past a month and a half without them being like, do you want to watch this video of Shane Gillis challenging Joe Rogan to a fight? And it's just like a thumbnail of Shane Gillis in a headlock. I'm like, I'm not going to watch it. Stop showing it to me. It's funny.
01:42:02
Speaker
i always wondering why i My YouTube algorithm is garbage now. It is the lowest level stupid stuff. It's like this comedian totally called out this other guy. That's that's like the level of stupid that I've stooped to. It's like the real world. It's that version. Whatever, right? It's drama videos. Yeah. Movie and TV show like breakdowns and then people catching snakes. I spend a lot of time watching people catch snakes. That's cool. What did that one guy do that made life so miserable at the house?
01:42:47
Speaker
oh Back at the We used to call it we would later on we would call it the colt house even though it really I I feel bad calling it that cuz like it really wasn't but it kind of was I mean I it it like Wasn't but he just had to jerk off in every room every day every time I'm really glad there wasn't any At least I don't think so Yeah Well, we'll see but um Sorry, what was the question? Sorry, I ruined it. I ruined your brain for a second. The one kid that made things hard at the house, you said he made your life hell. Oh my god, he made my life hell. I want to be empathetic. He was kind of on the spectrum and had
01:43:37
Speaker
Was really really like if you don't do this like I'm gonna be on you about it and you better do it and Like this is the way it is and so Like his parents had gone to Ireland for like a whole I think it was like a whole fucking summer. They were gone. And, and me and this he's like, I'm made of the house now. Yes. he ah no I mean, well, his parents appointed him, you know, he was basically the caretaker of the house and which is fine, whatever. Like, I don't care, dude. I just I'm just working and trying to go about my life. So.
01:44:19
Speaker
There was something like we had chores every week that we were supposed to do and like, I did my chore. I think it was, so we called the church. you It was like this, um I guess it would be the attic of the house. They finished it off and kind of made it into like a little like cute like church. um And I, my chore was to, I think it was like to sweep or mop the floor or something. And I did it. And like, he didn't like the way that I did it. His first day on the job, he just power trips hard. I don't know if you did this well enough. He's like putting his finger on it. Mom and dad said, I'm in charge of distribution of the big plastic barrel of animal crackers and you don't get any cause you didn't mop gut.
01:45:13
Speaker
You don't get any in your little wax laced paper cup. Yeah. He was just, he was being a stickler and I was just like, bro, like I don't care. Like I don't have time for you. Like stop. And it, oh, it just, it, yeah, it caused, he caused a lot of tension. I think for a lot of people in the house and like it, it was just not. I, whatever dynamic he had with his parents too going on. Yeah, that's weird. Living at home and like, it was just weird. It's big. Mommy's going to be disappointed in me vibes. So you're just like, okay, this is getting weird. You care too much. you' you I don't think you've experienced disappointing your parents yet. It's actually fine. And ah you will survive. One weird thing I will share with you guys though about this, this community was,
01:46:12
Speaker
there was this big like sort of cult mentality or beliefs about like being healthy and like eating organic food like you guys heard about that weird shit so it was that is that's a cult like that religious or not I feel like if you like lean too hard in that direction you you're your base. It's very cult like it gets weird. Wow. And it did because there was this book that they were they were following this really strict diet. It's called The the Clean. um And it's like a bald white guy on the front holding like a fucking bucket of bleach in a rag. but Mr. Clean, he is cut.
01:47:02
Speaker
So it's like this whole thing where you like detox your body and you read your body, ah you know, because your body is just like full of all this garbage that you got to get rid of. And like I had like a roommate there that she like almost passed out at work because like she was like Mr. Reiki said, like not taking care of herself. Oh, is it like fasting and stuff like that? And yeah It was like very abruptly like eliminating like everything that your body's been used to its entire life and like starting to incorporate like healthy stuff but still like not what these people didn't understand is like not everybody's body is the same not everybody's gonna respond the same way and it just became like this huge like stressor in the house about
01:47:59
Speaker
Not everyone can eat a thousand pounds of broccoli a month and just that, you know? It is funny how often diet well, and there's a reason for it, I think, but like when you listen to stuff about cults, like diet and food intake is one of the things that they regulate really carefully, you know? I and i i mean, obviously that's not the only reason that groups get into that and stuff, but like in in actual cut and dry cults, Like who gets to eat and what they get to eat and how often they get to eat is something that's like something that the leader maintains pretty tight control over because people who are starving and exhausted don't have time to think about why they don't just leave. They don't have time to think about why they're letting him have sex with their wife.
01:48:50
Speaker
ah ah Oh my God.
Conclusion on Spirituality and Gratitude
01:48:55
Speaker
All right. We've been going for a while. We gotta round this out. Jillian, final thoughts. Whatever you want to share that you feel like you haven't gotten a chance to, that's been on your mind. Sum up the correct view of spirituality in one sentence. The correct. Okay. No, I will. Actually, I will, Casey. Okay. Actually, that's great because there is no correct view. Oh, see, mine wasn't a trick question. I feel like you gave a trick answer. That's literally my answer, no. That is true. that is when ah Growing up, when we the conversations are relative, and relativism would come up.
01:49:42
Speaker
Like the world wants you to the the world the world wants you to believe that everything's relative. Well, saying everything's relative, well, that's making a very bold statement. And that's saying that that belief is the one true belief, which means that they don't believe in relativity. Evolution is a religion all its own. Big old gotcha. Big old gotcha. So Jillian, you fell into that liberal trap. you said You said everything, there is no right way. Well, that's saying that's the right way, that there being no right way is the right way. And turns out Francis Schaeffer was right all along.
01:50:25
Speaker
Everyone go watch how should you then live listen to him work scare you into end of the world kind of shit and also say some smart things along the way but maybe slightly misguided and then you can find his son on facebook going the complete opposite direction and an absolutely trashing conservative christians. with a party line liberal vitriol that I haven't seen from an old white man and since Bill Maher.
01:50:53
Speaker
Are they like sponsors for The Schaefer family. I have ah some thoughts there. but You do have some thoughts. For another time. But um I mean, yes, my mom ah also, you know, as she has said, the ah liberal colleges have poisoned your mind and forever changed me. So um i I I don't know. I'm just going to keep going and trying to figure it out, I guess. At least she blamed somebody else and not you specifically.
01:51:35
Speaker
yeah You can have pity because you're a victim you know yeah of of the woke mind virus. um Yes, the woke mafia. Well, Jill, it's been great catching up. Thanks for so much for ah for coming on. Yeah, of course. um Anytime. I feel like we just barely touch the surface. like that I just feel like there's so much we could get into. It does always feel that way. I feel like it always feels that way. I mean, a podcast, plan and we go pretty long here. and It never and always feels like there's more to be said. so but say That's why we've been doing this every week for three fucking years because we can't shut the fuck up.
01:52:21
Speaker
Well, thank you guys for um hanging out and just talking about life back then at Liberty and what's going on now. I guess we kind of got into that. I don't know. So, yeah, it was great. This was fun. It was great. It was great to finally talk. We've been talking to Discord over Instagram. Best of each other back and forth for a while, trying to set this up for a while. And I'm so glad we were finally able to line something up. Thanks everybody for listening, and we will see you next time.