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From Armani to Ivy with Darren Johnston
86 Plays1 year ago
For our inaugural episode of Season 3, we talked with the dashing Darren Johnston about embracing American tailored clothing, recontextualizing Ivy Style, Turner Classic Movies, Speed Racer, collecting vintage magazines, the lack of Black faces in the fashion world, and more!
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Transcript
Introduction of Hosts and Guest
00:01:16
Speaker
Hi, I'm Connor Fowler. And I'm Matt Smith. Welcome to Apocalypse Duts. We are joined this evening by the positively stunning and effortlessly cool Darren Johnston, curator of American collegiate style, a disciple of Black Ivy, a man in tweed as a friend indeed. Welcome to the show, Darren. Oh, thanks, guys. Thanks for having me on. I appreciate it. Yeah, thank you.
Spring Style and Weather
00:01:37
Speaker
How are you feeling today?
00:01:39
Speaker
doing good doing well weather's nice the spring has been very conducive to our to our style i'll say right oh it's total weather right i wish it would stay i wish it would stay that way no it's going to get hot and then my style will just go
00:01:57
Speaker
Right down the toilet. Yeah, yeah. Being in Georgia, I've already had a little bit of that, which really fucking sucks when it's like 88 degrees and 70 percent humidity. You're just like, well, all right. Nothing. Nothing is comfortable. Right. Yeah, exactly. Exactly.
Darren's Outfit Details
00:02:15
Speaker
So we have a pretty packed show today, so we will just
00:02:21
Speaker
get into it. We talk about the ensemble investigation. Darren, this is where we ask you what you are wearing today from head to toe or toe to head, however much detail you like. Oh, nice. Okay. Yeah, yeah, for sure. Starting off, I have this
00:02:44
Speaker
I was showing Connor before, but it was his Brooks Brothers silk and linen. It's so funny because this is like what I'm looking for right now. Oh, yeah.
00:02:54
Speaker
Oh, great, man. It's the three roll two. So it's a very straight fit, very comfortable. So I'm wearing that, of course, I customized it, I actually put this through the wash, a cold wash, right, because it was a little oversized. And I figured, you know, silk inherently has a lot of stiffness in it. So if you throw it in a wash in a cold wash, hang it to dry, right, but you got to make sure you size up a little bit. If you're going to do this, this is a sidebar.
00:03:18
Speaker
You'll have a nice soft unstructured feeling sport jacket. So I'm wearing that. I'm wearing a Troy and Guild and Troy pinpoint Oxford shirt. Vintage Brooks Brothers black label Paisley tie.
O'Connell's Brand and Personal Connection
00:03:39
Speaker
O'Connell's Poplin Gray trousers and Ralph Lauren Red Sox. And I was telling Connell also before we just got started about these suede bow tie slip-ons, which are like a penny loafer style, which are very cool, crepe sole. And I don't know how I came across this. You know, I spent too many hours on eBay. It's probably how.
00:04:03
Speaker
I was impressed with those and I saw them this morning. Dude, they're fucking cool. Yeah. And also, Darren, I got to say thank you for the Ocado shout out. Like, they're, they're trying to shit. And like, I have friends that have been involved with them. It's like, that's what made me never fucking hate. Yeah. Yeah.
00:04:27
Speaker
And it's also good to like have a have a trouser with a name, right? Oh, yeah
00:04:34
Speaker
O'Connell's is just a cool institution. It's one of the last real bastions of that particular style. I think it was started by two guys who were actually football players in 1959 or whatever it was, right? And of course they had the whole Ivy thing going on, you know, and this whole American thing. And then, you know, the family just kept going. And a person owns it now is really nice guy. Matter of fact, the answer is a phone. If you give him a call and you want to buy something, you know, questions.
00:05:03
Speaker
I think his name is Huber or something like that. But yeah, really nice guy, bought a ton of stuff from him. If you want an authentic khaki pant, well, an Ivy style khaki pant, right? With a long rise, with a proper rise and full cut, that is the place to go. So. Hell yeah. And also. Unendorsed. Unendorsed. I endorse it simply because the vast majority of their pants over the vast
00:05:31
Speaker
career that they had, had been made by Julie Hurling and Frumming Trousers. And Julie is one of my favorite people I've ever known in the clothing industry, RFP Julie. So. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. A lot of their parents come from him and he's still great. He's based in Brooklyn. All right. I believe.
00:05:50
Speaker
Uh, they, I think they moved to Fall River. Um, Mr. Hartling died a few years back, but they're still in business in some way, but just one of the, one of the greatest, like, or maybe the greatest American trouser company that I can personally think of. So, had to make that connection with the O'Connell.
00:06:14
Speaker
Sorry, Connor. I took this in attention. No, no, that's the magic. That's the magic of the show. So, based formerly in Brooklyn, where are you based?
Relocation and Style Influence
00:06:25
Speaker
Oh, good question. I'm in New Jersey. I've been here for about 15 years. I was married before, for 10 years. Ended up moving here with my then wife, got divorced, and ended up staying here. But originally, I'm from New York, the Bronx.
00:06:42
Speaker
I was curious about the voice. That's how I got to Jersey. Of course, I would never have come to Jersey being from New York in the Bronx. I was literally thinking, should I ask if he would have ever thought of himself living in Jersey being from the Bronx, but you just took the words out of my mouth.
00:07:09
Speaker
Well, so so so I have to say this is very embarrassing but so the question is I originally wrote it right Jersey looms large in your life even in your Instagram handle because Darren
00:07:23
Speaker
J looks like NJ. So I was like, this guy put fucking New Jersey in his Instagram. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's surprised you picked that up. You know, most people do not get that association. I thought it would be obvious to a lot of people, but no, they didn't, they didn't pick up on that. But yeah, absolutely. We're a very intelligent show if you're not already concerned. Oh my God. You guys are very quick. Very quick.
00:07:48
Speaker
So, we're in Jersey City. You lived here. I live in Jersey City. Okay. Yeah. So, I'm living right across the river. Right. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I feel like a bunch of people that I knew in Brooklyn when I lived there have now made that trek across the river because it's like, it's got some shit happening. Like, it's a cool place and it's very close to New York.
00:08:10
Speaker
Oh man, yeah, they have a huge art scene here. So if you guys ever want to come up from Baltimore and hang out, yeah, they have an art crawl every April, May.
Career Influence on Style
00:08:20
Speaker
And there's a lot of artists because there's a lot of loss in downtown Jersey City that they've appropriated and they make art. I used to, yeah, I used to show, you know, because I dabble in painting and drawing. Actually, I went to Boston School of Design.
00:08:35
Speaker
Jesus Christ. You can't just bury the fucking lead like that. Bury the fucking lead. Okay. I, maybe you have heard of both of these. Long those many years ago. So are you like an architect?
00:08:53
Speaker
No, well, actually what I do is I do project. Yeah, well, I do that. I dabble in that. I paint and I draw on my off time. But here where I work, and I was telling Connor this, I work at a university to get back to the question. And that sort of informs my style because I work at this institution that's
00:09:17
Speaker
close to 200 years old. So I work at an actual university, so I'm wearing university-based clothes in the environment that sort of makes sense in that context. So that's how it sort of informs what I wear.
00:09:33
Speaker
But yeah, we went to Parsons for a bit, graduated, got a degree in graphic design, decided that I didn't want to do that because everyone at that time was now doing graphic design so we made it pretty much irrelevant. So I ended up getting a job as a project manager and I work in facilities, logistics, and project management. So we take care of the infrastructure of this institution that I work at. We do like
00:09:57
Speaker
student facing projects, like we installed these lockers, we designed it with the vendor, they support the students, they come and pick up packages from these lockers. So we have a whole team that sort of does these installs. So there's a lot of architectural plans and all this implementation kind of stuff. So that's what I do. That's how I translated my art degree into what I do now. That is quite the history. Yeah.
00:10:25
Speaker
Yeah. And a long journey too. Yeah. Yeah. A long journey. Well, it's a very interesting sounding journey. And I do wish we had done this and we could have had a two hour show. So. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I'll stay on as long as you guys want. Yeah. Nice. So I was going to ask, I was going to ask like, now we know that you are not from New Jersey. I kind of figured you were from New Jersey. So.
00:10:54
Speaker
Do you think that your geographic place has had an impact on your style?
Style Choices in Conservative Settings
00:11:03
Speaker
Like, has New Jersey informed certain things about you? I'm sure that working at that university within New Jersey has.
00:11:09
Speaker
Yeah, more in that context, yeah, working at the institution that I work at sort of informed my style, right? Because I think clothing should be, it should be a couple of things going on in clothes, right? It should be environment. It should be where you are in your life. And like we were discussing, I'm an older guy before we get to the next.
00:11:27
Speaker
question you know so i've done the whole gamut of fashion and clothing and sort of got to a point where okay so now i still like this stuff but how do i incorporate this into my daily life where i have to interact with students or i have to interact with vendors and project managers and whoever and my boss and the president of university blah blah blah blah and like i was telling connor earlier this is a pretty conservative place i mean my boss wears double bunk shoes and suspenders
00:12:01
Speaker
Don't you think to be an old head, to be an older person wearing double monks is a different thing? Because double monks did become trendy at a certain point a few years ago, like a decade ago, nearly. So someone wearing double monks in an administrative function is very much a power move.
00:12:23
Speaker
It's a very specific power move. And I think these are probably Alfred Sargent's, some British brand. These are $500 shoes. Well, you know, he's definitely making a statement. So, you know, back to my point, you know, it makes sense for me to dress in the way that I do and informed by the environment because my senior leadership dresses in the same way. You know, my boss still wears suits.
00:12:49
Speaker
and on what have you. As a matter of fact, I'll tell you guys an interesting story. I'm the president of the university who I'm pretty friendly with because I've been here about 10 years now almost. He ordered these Armani suits. So they come in because part of my responsibilities is overseeing the logistics part of
00:13:07
Speaker
the campus. So it came into the mail room, which I would see, I was like, who did all these six Armani suits? There's no name on these, this box. So, you know, I found that it was for him, but they were a size in my size. I was like, well, I hope they don't play them because I could teach them that. But yeah, it goes back to context. You know, the president's wearing Armani. My boss is wearing suspenders.
00:13:31
Speaker
So now, how do I segue into this environment and still retain, you know, some kind of flair or my own personal into it, you know? So what do you kind of have as your first clothing member? Because it sounds like you've cared for a long time. So. Yeah.
Early Fashion Memories
00:13:58
Speaker
Yeah.
00:14:00
Speaker
Probably I remember being really into as a kid this this race racing cartoon, right? Okay, I think it was probably anime or something. I mean he had this car and he had you know, whatever he's ready to raise her speed racer Yeah, I was heavy in this guy love speed racer and Gigantor Whatever it is 28 whatever Japanese
00:14:28
Speaker
name for this. So, but big into that, right? So I was like, mom, I have to have a sweatshirt with racing emblems on. So five years old, I had my mom all these patches on this gray sweatshirt, right? All these racing things on there. So it's probably my earliest memory of, of clothing, of wanting to adapt or adopt a piece of clothing and make it sort of my own. Yeah. Yeah.
00:14:59
Speaker
which is something that we will get into, I think, making clothing personal. But I first wanted to ask about something we were talking about, you're collecting these vintage GQs. Wondering like, how are you finding them? And what are you extracting from them? Because for weeks and weeks, possibly even months, I have been seeing these things like, where is he getting these amazing images?
00:15:32
Speaker
Before we get to the answer the age question question. I don't know if I did already, but yeah in my 50s So I remember buying these GQ's when they came out as a young guy as maybe in my teens Right, and I didn't have the appreciation for them that I do now obviously I was like, oh these are cool You know because I sort of started to get into clothing at that age, but I really didn't appreciate or didn't have the
00:15:51
Speaker
Yeah, it's from these old GQs.
00:15:57
Speaker
the knowledge that I do now in terms of how this progression of traditional clothing in an American sphere sort of translated to what I was seeing in these magazines. So, you know, I didn't appreciate them to the degree that I do now because now I can look back and say, okay, hey, this is British influenced or this has touches of Ivy or this is early Ralph Lauren or whatever. Now I have all these touchstones to refer back to.
00:16:20
Speaker
But I find them on eBay, primarily, right? And sometimes they'll put up a whole block of them. I'll buy a bunch. And sometimes they're like 20, 30 bucks a pop. But I just got to have it because I have this obsessive compulsive principality, right? And I just have to be careful about the stuff that I get into. So clothing and everything else and GQ magazines are safe sort of things for me to get crazy about. So the other one, primarily on eBay.
00:16:50
Speaker
And Etsy. Yeah, what is the oldest issue that you have?
Evolution of GQ Magazine
00:16:56
Speaker
Like, if you know off the top here. I think that. Well, I have them actually in my office because I don't have a new room at my house anymore. That's a collector tale.
00:17:10
Speaker
yeah so my boss ever comes in here he'll probably be like what the hell is happening in here man you got gq magazines in your dresser and you got some rape magazines underneath here and what have you so but yeah probably 1984 i would say okay nice yeah yeah yeah and you know what
00:17:30
Speaker
It's yeah, a long way back for sure. But you know, I'm American magazines are just in such a sad state right now, right? And they have been for a long time standpoint, you know, they've sort of given up the ghost and they've been so committed to fulfilling the wishes of their advertisers now, right? Now they were crap in there. I saw an issue a GQ recently. It was a gingham for coat.
00:17:59
Speaker
It was orange and white. Like, who is wearing this? If you're not Elton John and there's nothing wrong with that, you can't even wear that.
00:18:11
Speaker
But that doesn't speak to the broader community of menswear guys like us who are really into more traditional stuff. There should be space for both viewpoints. Really not to say that the average American person that gives a fuck about clothing
00:18:32
Speaker
Sorry, not to say that the average American person actually gives a shit about clothing, but GQ, I don't remember the last time that I even looked at an issue in the grocery store or whatever.
00:18:50
Speaker
But there was always some semblance of like, yeah, there's some aspirational shit. I could give him fur coat. Fine. But there's also normal shit that any person that actually cares, which is not probably most people, but a significant version. And now it's just like, oh, this is what we're getting.
00:19:12
Speaker
Oh, cool. Not to denigrate, but like, shit changed, and sadly, they did not really change with it in a normal person. Right. Right. And
Secondhand Shopping Journey
00:19:29
Speaker
it's hard. It's hard to change print, I think. People who are smarter than me and know this better than me have said this, but
00:19:37
Speaker
It's hard, right? When you have those, when you have that kind of timeline to make a change, I can only imagine that it's difficult to be agile, especially compared to like a digital publication, right? I can change the title of this article. I can change the title of this episode right now if I want. Yeah. So it's just, I'm not making excuses for them. I'm just saying like, it's sad as you said. Yeah. Yeah.
00:20:05
Speaker
In order for them to stay in business, they have to serve the needs of their advertisers. And that's what they're doing. And their advertisers are designers, right? And they have to put that product in their magazine so they can continue making the money that they need to stay afloat. And that's what the reality of it is. You know, instead of putting, you know, J. Crew or stuff that guys like us can relate to, you know, you never see that anymore. But in these old GQs that I've been collecting, you know, you see all kinds of clothes in there. You see J. Crew, you see, um,
00:20:34
Speaker
Barney stuff, you see, uh, Paul Stewart, you see a wealth of things and all at different price points, which is relatable to a broader range of guys. You know, it's not such a specific viewpoint. Yeah. Yeah. Like this, this was not even something we had talked about leading up to this like interview, but it's such a, it's such a good point that, you know, like,
00:21:00
Speaker
it's gone from something that was like mildly accessible to something that's basically inaccessible in a lot of ways. And like, it's really fucking sad.
00:21:09
Speaker
Well, when you see the fit, when you see the fit, it's like, Oh my God, this costs $15,000. Like that's what the outfit costs. You're wearing $15,000. Oh, I made a mistake. It's just the jacket is $15,000. I can't manage that. That's aspirational to me. Yeah. That's not relatable to me. That's a car. Yeah.
00:21:34
Speaker
That's the start of a down payment on someplace to live, probably. Right, right. Absolutely. So you mentioned buying vintage CQs and collecting that. And you had mentioned the jacket you're wearing today is a thrifted Brooks piece. So have you seen the merits of buying secondhand for a long time?
00:22:00
Speaker
Uh, or, you know, did you just kind of realize, Oh, I can, I can do what I want to do in a, in a more economical form. Right. Yeah. I guess, um, probably about 15 years, maybe going on 20 years. I sort of.
00:22:18
Speaker
recognize the benefits of buying second hair. I'll tell you guys a story. I went to Atlanta with my best friend, right? And I had these Persol sunglasses, right? And this is 1996. I had these Persol sunglasses, the ones that Steve McQueen used to wear. And I put those in my damn luggage, right? Got to Atlanta, the damn glasses are gone. I was like, holy smokes, they stole. And at the time, these things were $250, $250.
00:22:46
Speaker
Yeah. So that was a lot of damn money. I said, how am I going to recover these things? I don't need to really make them anymore to the degree that they did when I got them. Because they were made by a company called Rati in Italy, which used to make them and they made them for
00:23:03
Speaker
Mastro, what's the gentleman in the Italian guy's name? But anyway, he wore them, Steve McQueen wore them, and several other people wore these personal sunglasses. And then they changed hands to Luxottica, which makes... Right, I was going to say, this is the Queen Luxottica takeover. Yeah. So they weren't the same quality, weren't the same glasses in my point. So my friend said, why don't you try eBay and see if you can get a pair of there? I was like, okay, yeah, I'll try that.
00:23:29
Speaker
So I went on there and of course found a parents like, this is pretty cool. I can find like old stuff that, you know, I think is lost and gone forever on this platform. Right. And like that, that is the advent of eBay. Like, I don't know totally when they started, but like, I don't remember it being a thing before like 98 or so, but like to do this in 96 you're like at the forefront.
00:23:56
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. I was like, I'm going to find out. They started in 1995, September 3rd, 1995. Shit. All right. All right. Yeah. So I guess I was there at the beginning, because that's how old I was. Dear OG, dude. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm very, very adopted.
00:24:12
Speaker
Yeah, so I jumped on that, right? And then I was like, well, what else can you get on here? And again, like I said, I told you guys, obsessive compulsive, right? So I used to collect comic books, of course, Spider-Man, Captain America, all these things. I have thousands probably at my mother's house in the Bronx. So I can go on there and get comics. I said, what else can you find on here? And it led down this whole rabbit hole of, you know, I need a pair of shoes.
00:24:39
Speaker
find those. And then whatever, pads or then I started, I was really into Italian clothes for a long time before I transitioned over to Ivy and traditional American or English clothing. So I said, can I get some vestimento or cannoli on here? I tried that stuff and then all of a sudden I was off and running.
00:25:03
Speaker
Yeah, no. It's like running origin story of like how you became a secondhand shopper. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. They shouldn't have taken the sunglasses. They shouldn't have taken the sunglasses. They wouldn't have done that. Nothing would have probably come of it. So you would have been fine. Yeah. Perfectly fine.
00:25:23
Speaker
If someone writes a comic book about second-hand shoppers, you've got to be the hero, man. I've been on a big S on my choice, E, B, eBay, or my chest or something like that. Right. Yeah. So to begin our discussion of Ivy slash trad slash prep slash whatever,
Transition to Ivy Style
00:25:46
Speaker
Why, because I know you just said you were heavy into Italian clothes before you got into this sort of tailored American style of clothing. So how did you get there? I know your traditional clothes and radical thoughts in your bio. Yeah. Yeah, totally.
00:26:13
Speaker
So I guess it started like, I started to realize that in the context of my life, those Italian clothes really didn't really speak to my experience and my background to a degree, right? Because I wasn't this slick operator or I wasn't, you know, a secret agent or whatever, what have you.
00:26:35
Speaker
My dad worked at the post office for a long time. My dad is also a writer and a poet. So he, of course, moved up the ranks in the post office and became like an arbitrator, sort of like a lawyer.
00:26:50
Speaker
argues for the rights of the employees at the post office. Well, he did. So, of course, he goes from this menial job all the way up into this blue collar, into this executive job, and his clothing, of course, transforms along that journey. So he started buying Brooks Brothers shirts.
00:27:10
Speaker
blue blazers, primarily, some suits from Jail's Bank, and other traditional clothes, Lanzan, what have you. So to this day, he has a row full of Oxford shirts in his closet. They're nothing but white, right? And they're lined up in his closet in plastic bags. So, of course, yeah, yeah, to this day. So I went there last week and picked up two Oxford shirts. Two old Brooks Brothers, USA, Maine. Nice.
00:27:38
Speaker
So he's a little older, well, he's a little bigger than me, so they're a little bare, but I'll wear them on the weekends or what have you. But again, you know, when you're younger, you sort of reject the clothes of your parents. So that stuff, that Ivy stuff, that tribe stuff that my dad was wearing to work, I was like, this is corny. So it was Ralph Lauren. I want the Italian slick stuff, right? Yes. But as you get older, you realize that that's not who you are.
00:28:04
Speaker
You're taking and you're becoming your, you become your parents to a degree after a while, whether you want to or not, you know, by hook or by crook. By hook or by crook. And as I got older, I realized that American clothing, vintage, well-made American clothing is just as much or even more comfortable than Italian clothing.
00:28:23
Speaker
Oh my God. It has a lot of padding in the shoulder. It's fitted at the waist where as you can see, I like to eat my hamburgers. So it was any longer. So I said, let me let me try Ralph. You know, that sort of looks like what dad used to wear. That might be a little more comfortable. And of course it was. But Ralph is an amalgamation of a lot of makers, right? It's not just Ralph Lauren. It's
00:28:53
Speaker
Vestamenta or Corneliani making Ralph Lauren, which you then wear. So it's not really his sensibility. It's still someone else's to a degree because he has these various makers making various things for him.
00:29:09
Speaker
So I said, okay, this is cool, but this really doesn't fit me physically, and it doesn't fit my lifestyle either, right? So, of course, then I turned to the Ivy Trad stuff, which is more democratic in the way it fits. It's looser. It's more comfortable.
00:29:27
Speaker
It's a little more well made, right? Most of the time, right? I don't know if it's older. I said, well, I can buy a jacket for $75 or I can buy an Italian jacket for $175. I mean, I can buy a Brooks Brothers vintage jacket for $75. Which would I rather do? Of course, I'm gonna pick the better quality jacket and the softer, easier, more comfortable jacket. So that's sort of how I transitioned into that, long story short.
00:29:57
Speaker
Yeah, yeah. I mean... Oh, go ahead, Connor. Sorry. No, go on. I was just gonna say, that's a pretty, like, elegant change, right? That, you know, a lot logical to... Right, right.
00:30:15
Speaker
Yeah, you have to try on these different personas as you're younger. I mean, that's the time to sort of do it, right? To sort of find out what speaks to you, what makes sense in the context of your own life and experience. And I think that's what's missing sometimes in this trend-based Instagram world is that
00:30:34
Speaker
You're adopting these trends, but it doesn't really speak to who you are as a person. It doesn't really speak to your journey in the context of your life. And why are you wearing what you're wearing? Are you even thinking about that? Or are you just going after these grills because everyone else is getting them? Right. And also, no, certainly not. And you were coming of age when like the Armani Italian thing was the fucking thing.
00:31:01
Speaker
You know, like people tend to forget that, that the big shoulder, like American Jekyll and Lowe kind of thing lasted a while. And so like almost, almost returned to what American clothing was, was like for you against the grain of what you were around at that point. Right. Yeah.
00:31:25
Speaker
I mean, Armani, what came into prominence in maybe 1980 and all the way until about almost into 2000. Right. Sort of rule that sort of race, you know. Yeah. And then you had manufacturers like Hickey Freeman making these wannabe Italian suits with like crazy pleats and shit, which also didn't fit most human beings in the real world. And I'm sure Brooks did their fair share of that, but Brooks also had like
00:31:56
Speaker
So it's a navy blazer with soft shoulders. We can bring the waist in if you need to, but this is it. And it's like, oh, cool. That's rad. Right. Right. And I think that's where they lost their way a little bit, right? Totally. Because now people are transitioning over to this thing, and now they're trying to scramble to think about, how do I make this relevant for people who are high fashion? Or should I make this relevant for people who are high fashion? Right. Right.
00:32:23
Speaker
Do you think that there is any sort of like Ivy quote unquote movement within like as a subculture in the menswear world, you know, we're, like Connor said earlier, we're, we're 10 years past the blog, like explosion, but there's still like a solid online menswear community in various forms. Right.
Tribalism in Menswear
00:32:50
Speaker
I mean, yeah, I think there is. I mean, I think what I see now is sort of like a definite tribalism sort of taking place in menswear. You know, I mean, there are certain guys who are just totally committed menswear heads, which means that they'll incorporate
00:33:05
Speaker
Whatever they feel they want to incorporate in that space it'll whether it be drapes or matchburn or whatever They'll take it all and they'll they'll use it all and they use it all well. Um, then they got the hardcore ivy guys who are just nothing but brooks and and j-press and And o'connell's and this is all we wear and this is what the correct thing is The the danger is you never tell anybody what the correct thing is, right? you try to
00:33:34
Speaker
Embrace other viewpoints and accept other viewpoints and sort of just understand we're just, it's a pretty small boat that we're all rowing in in terms of menswear and just try to be more accepting of and not overly critical. Sir, sir, which I think is just a good movie for a lot. Yeah.
00:33:58
Speaker
It used to be really mean if you came up on those fashion forums, whatever, of whichever extraction, people were mean as shit. And like, that's why we have this thought about the fit pic. Like, I want people to go deep into their archives and find their fit pics from like 2007.
00:34:19
Speaker
to see how different they are. Because I know what mine looked like. I was fucking terrified. I was terrified. I'm taking a picture in my bedroom, fluorescent lighting. I'm very terrified. There's a small, what do they call it? Exit and something way window, like a little window to climb out. So this is not a good look. I don't look bad, but it's really good.
00:34:46
Speaker
Yeah, well, yeah, but in what context, though, Connor? Because you can see your journey, right? Because that's that kind of...
00:34:53
Speaker
quote unquote, mistake or whatever you want to call it or whatever misfire is necessary to the growth to put you where you are now, which is, I think you're, you're tremendously stylish. You know why? Because you inhabit yourself and you're true to your aesthetic. And Matt, I'm sure the same is true for you. You guys aren't trying to make concessions. You're just trying to live as expressively and organically as possible. And that's where true style comes from. Not from the grail that you're going to find, but from, from yourself, from within, you know?
00:35:23
Speaker
Certainly. And it really is. Yeah. Yeah. Well, so anyway. Yeah, go on. I was going to go with the big question. I was going to go with the big question, I guess, unless you want to read it, Matt. I mean, Darren, I feel like this kind of fits into what that discussion led or where that discussion led, but like, so.
Black Ivy's Influence on Fashion
00:35:51
Speaker
We wanted to talk about Black Ivy and mostly just the general impact of a very big portion of the population that doesn't get as much credit as the show. As it informs clothing and style and whatnot. So I think most of the people listening to the show have
00:36:21
Speaker
are aware of Black Ivy and the book by Jason Jules, could you give us your kind of idea of this as a mentality? Yeah, absolutely. I mean, one of the things that Jason did that was amazing, and I actually got a chance to talk to him in New York because
00:36:43
Speaker
There was a book signing at Drake's on Canal Street, which I went to. And I had been following him for a while. Actually, not to blow my own horn. I got a mention in that book in the back. Oh, fuck yeah, dude. Well, you deserve it. Yeah, you absolutely fucking deserve it.
00:37:02
Speaker
Yeah, thank you guys. Thank you. Yeah. And I had Jason sign in and I was like, and we were talking and I was like, well, you know, I'm glad you brought this book to light because I think it needed to be, you know, need to be out there that we weren't excluded from the conversation of American style or American Ivy, as you can put it. We were there from the beginning. And if you look at the historical record, right, which are
00:37:25
Speaker
to a degree called yearbooks, which I collected as well, just to go back. And I got the inspiration from another person on Instagram to go back and look and see, well, our African-American people or Asian people.
00:37:41
Speaker
present in this context and of course they were not to a large degree but they were there at the beginning and several prep schools in America, Deerfield Academy and Columbia and several other schools I mean they're on a ton of African-American people in that context during that time but they're they were there so they were participating in this whole Ivy thing right yeah my dad I remember some
00:38:07
Speaker
Yeah, some of the earliest conversations I had my father said, hey, dad, what styles were in when you were a kid? He said, oh, it was Ivy. Ivy style.
00:38:14
Speaker
Oh, that's fucking shit. Even this. In those terms. In those terms. He used that specific terms. He said it was Ivy. We dressed Ivy League. He didn't say Ivy style. He said Ivy League. And he said that we wore the chinos with the buckles in the back. We wore penny loafers. They wore shirts, but they weren't, of course, Brooks Brothers because those comparatively were expensive back then. So they weren't wearing J. Press.
00:38:40
Speaker
Brooks Brothers and what have you, they were recontextualizing and remaking it, right? And bringing these other influences in. They would wear the flat caps, tweed caps. That was big for them that he told me about. They would wear varsity jackets or army jackets. So it wasn't quite Ivy, but it was what their approximation of it was.
00:39:09
Speaker
And that's where the difference comes in, because African Americans traditionally have to re-contextualize things a lot. If you look at the historical record, that's how some of these things, jazz, macaroni and cheese actually is African American from, you know, they took these noodles of cheese, blah, blah, but combined it and came up with something.
00:39:29
Speaker
They made it their own is my point. Even the banjo, American instrument we think of as a southern instrument is actually of African origin. Oh yeah, absolutely. As a gourd that they stuck a pole in because they couldn't afford guitars. My point is they made these things their own by
00:39:51
Speaker
piecing together some of what they had available, some of the dominant culture, the American white culture or what have you, and then recontextualizing making it their own. And that's what Black Ivy is, actually. So it isn't the straightforward Ivy we would think of in terms of the Take Ivy book. It's more of an incorporation of these other elements that they could bring into the mix.
00:40:19
Speaker
Well, I mean, Connor and I were talking earlier and I haven't, I haven't looked at my copy of Take Ivy in a long time, but I'm fairly certain that there are, or maybe it's a similar like photo project, but like there are, you know, African-Americans at, in that
Unrecognized Black Contributions to Fashion
00:40:38
Speaker
book. And it's like, yo, this never gets mentioned because like, maybe it was Princeton.
00:40:45
Speaker
Like, I feel like Princeton maybe was an early integrated school, but like, it's there. And it very rarely gets mentioned. Yeah, yeah. It was there from the beginning. I mean, it's not clear. I know what pictures you're talking about. You could see them standing off to the side or in the background or what have you. Yeah, yeah.
00:41:12
Speaker
It wasn't like it dropped out of the sky and all of a sudden, oh wow, Black Ivy, where did that come from? They were there already but just wasn't getting the sort of regard. Any coverage at all? Yeah. At all. I was reading this Esquire piece today and they said that W.E.B. Du Bois had a Brooks Brothers account. Wow.
00:41:37
Speaker
Which I think, like, that's the shit, right? If you were an orator at the height of your game, like, where would you buy your shirts in 1880 or whatever? Right, where would you go? So I think, yeah, there's a notion
00:41:53
Speaker
And it's fucked up. I mean, it just is fucked up. It's like that black people were like, we want to look like those guys so we can be in their club. Like that's not the fucking point. Right. Right. You know, it's like, I'm going to do this better than you. Yeah. Watch.
00:42:12
Speaker
Right, I'm gonna make this my own, right? Yes. And I'm gonna do it in a way that speaks to my experience. You keep, no one's threatening your experience and no one's questioning that, the validity of that. But you're gonna recognize that I have a voice, right? And I have something that I wanna say and I'm gonna re-contextualize and I'm gonna take what's given to me, I'm gonna make it my own to speak to, to speak to for myself. Yeah, I mean, there's no way to,
00:42:41
Speaker
or there's seemingly lots of things to understate just how much the impact of black people on global culture has been documented. I'm a big music person. I think probably everyone that I know knows that. It's often in that discussion a lot. When you're talking about the Stones or you're talking about various
00:43:11
Speaker
various people like Elvis Presley taking black music and making it white. That's been talked about for a very long time, and I'm not here to do that, but for clothing, which everyone interacts with in their daily life, it hasn't been discussed until maybe the past five years, if I'm being generous.
00:43:39
Speaker
You know, you look back and there's so many of the coolest looking motherfuckers that were not white people. And that white people emulated to, you know, to do their own thing. Like, why, what do you think has changed that this is fine? Talk about stolen dollars.
00:43:59
Speaker
Yeah, it's literally just stolen ballot. It's like, yo, I can look like Chuck Berry and write or record songs to other people I've written and sound like Chuck Berry as a white dude. But like, why hasn't this been discussed? And do you personally feel like something's changed in the last little while?
00:44:25
Speaker
Right. I think it's starting to come to light. I think people are forcing it to be recognized and Jason has been instrumental in that. And I think other people on Instagram are finally recognizing that, you know, hey, it's not just about Steve McQueen, or it's not just about Paul Newman. Right. Heroes out. Right. I mean, Cecil Beaton. I mean,
00:44:47
Speaker
Gay men have done a tremendous amount to move fashion forward and they hardly even right now They don't get the mention. I mean you won't see like games balling and Connor and I were talking about that, you know, you don't see him held up as his paragon of style But he looks so fucking good all the time Yeah all the time
00:45:11
Speaker
But you don't see that. But he's totally out of the conversation. There are pictures I see of him sometimes, and I'm like, why have I never seen this picture? Well, we know why. Yeah. They don't want to hear that particular viewpoint. They don't want to hear from that particular voice a lot of times. And they don't want to give credence to something that threatens the established history.
00:45:35
Speaker
see that's the problem in this country and i want you to political is the skits is a matter of like we propagate the values but at the same time we were pressed certain things yeah is probably one of the most out of twenty century but i got him anywhere really yet you know yet why not well it's an odd to me it's not hard uh...
00:46:04
Speaker
like hatred and idolization, idolatry, like we put these people on a pedestal, these people who are black people for the most part, we put them on a pedestal and we say, this is what we should look like, these amazing athletes, these genius people, right? But we don't like them, man, we hate them, we hate them, they suck. We hate them, we hate them because it's threatening to, yeah, it's threatening to a degree.
00:46:33
Speaker
Oh, certainly. I mean, it should be space for all viewpoints, all sensibilities in this country. It shouldn't be this thing where you feel like, oh, because this black guy is wearing an Oxford shirt, it's going to tear down this institution of, like, Ivy League style that's been upheld since 1924 or whatever it is.
00:47:01
Speaker
It's not a threat to that. Actually, any culture that doesn't adopt any new sensibilities or new ideas is like a fly in amber. It's not going to grow. It's a dead culture. It has to take in new things in order to move forward. To move forward, you have to take in new shit. And then you also just have to, if someone is not hurting anybody else around them,
00:47:29
Speaker
why do you give a fuck about any of that shit? Like, why does skin or gender or whatever matter? Because boiled down, like, we all fucking die the same. Like, not to get dark, but, you know, like, why does it matter? But what, you know, I don't know. It's just, this was a really fun answer.
00:47:59
Speaker
Yeah. Go ahead. I'm sorry. I mean, we have to stop believing. Yeah, no problem, Matt. We have to stop believing that we're under threat in this country. There is no real threat, right? Right. It's all of us together, and we have to be accepting, and we have to be inclusive, and not from a touch point of view to say, OK, look, look what I did. I'm inclusive now, but from an understanding and a compassion point. 100%. And like I said,
00:48:29
Speaker
This moves the ball forward for all of us when we start to do that, you know, in terms of style as well, you know? Totally. Absolutely. The diversity is the answer. Diversity is the answer to almost every problem. Yeah. You need to bring in diverse voices, ideas, what have you, and then you will have your solution. Right. So I don't know. I'm not trying to get too hippy dippy, I guess.
00:48:59
Speaker
It is near and dear to me, right? And it's like, you just have to ask yourself like, why? Why in the fuck is it like this?
00:49:09
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's just a lot of gatekeeping and menswear, you know, and it's a shame, you know, I've been to a couple of menswear events in New York and I'm not going to mention any names and I'm not going to throw anybody under the bus, but it's a couple of guys who you try to approach and have a conversation when they're just too cool for school. They don't want to. Yeah, they don't want to fuck with you. They want to mess with the guy who has 100,000 followers.
00:49:33
Speaker
Yeah, you'll send them a DM like, Hey, man, I want that, blah, blah, zero Zippo. You don't have two seconds to say, Hey, man, appreciate that or blah, blah, blah. You don't have to become my best friend, but at least just be a fucking human being. That's kind of one of those. You're a human being. Just be a human being. Yeah.
00:49:52
Speaker
uh i i personally am very introverted i don't love talking to people i do a public facing job because i'm an asshole and an idiot but uh you know like if someone deems me i have like around 8 000 followers like i i try not to leave people on a read or just like not even respond sometimes i fuck up but like just that's that's the crux of this whole like
00:50:21
Speaker
Internet thing it's like yo, you're not you're not some like You're not some special being right like we're all fucking nerds here, and we just want to interact just be normal right
00:50:37
Speaker
Just be normal. You didn't ride down on a thunderbolt like fucking Zeus. Yeah, dude. Yeah. Yeah, it's just like, yo, we're, we're all at the like fringes of society as far as what we actually care about. Let's just interact and have a good time and talk about some dumb shit that nobody else cares about.
00:51:01
Speaker
Yeah, let's talk about, you know, double vented jackets and all kinds of dirty crap. I will only talk about center. Right. Yeah. This is why Connor and I started the podcast so that we can talk to a bunch of random people that have this like really weird niche interests that we actually do. Yeah, I digress. Yeah.
00:51:31
Speaker
I was going to say, speaking of which, since we have sort of dispensed with the idea of Ivy as a subculture, are there other subcultures that you feel are
Influence of Jazz and Classic Films
00:51:45
Speaker
They have an influence on your style? Jazz, probably so. Yeah, I would say jazz and classic film, man, is like, I love Turner classic movies. Oh, yeah. I love all that stuff, man. That's where you can see people really inhabiting their clothes in a realistic way, with a lack of self-regard.
00:52:11
Speaker
Right? They're not concerned with the Instagram posts, but they're inhabiting their clothes. They're wearing their own clothes for the most part, because a lot of- Yeah, right. Right. There was- Kerry Grant's wearing his own clothes. Yeah, he- And he looks amazing, but you know, it's with a lack of regard for it too, you know? He's just doing his thing. That's why he looks so cool. Totally. You know? We're too self-aware to get to that point, right? We're too educated.
00:52:40
Speaker
or do self-aware of this whole thing to really inhabit that, those clothes the same way now. That moment has passed. That's why I love classic film. Because you can really see them living in the context of their clothes.
00:52:56
Speaker
So I think classic film is just a tremendous, tremendous resource of style. Matter of fact, there's this film by Lewis Mail, I believe. It's called The Fire Within. And it's about this guy who's going to commit suicide, right? He wakes up one day, he's like, I'm a writer, my life's empty, I'm going to kill myself today. So he gets up.
00:53:20
Speaker
and the first thing he does in these long lingering shots of him getting prepared and getting dressed he pulls out this beautiful silk scarf and he puts on his tweed suit and his tie and he has all these clothes because he's staying at this mental institution and this is on a criterion uh... network if you're interested in seeing it but my point is that even in the midst of this guy wanting to kill himself he still takes time to inhabit this clothing to put on this clothes it's not a
00:53:49
Speaker
It's almost an unconscious choice like this is who I am and this is how I'm going to end my life dressed in this manner. So that is so freaking cool to me, man. Yeah. I'm looking into Wiki right now. Yeah. He's just doing it. He's just going to like, today's the day I'm going to end it, but I'm still going to take time to look appropriate in the midst of my existential crisis. I'm going to look amazing.
00:54:14
Speaker
And, you know, as a subculture and as not necessarily a subculture, but probably from a viewpoint of style and influence. Those, those type of little things and nuances are really, really cool to me. So if we can, I think I would probably watch that. Yeah. Give it a watch, man. I think you'll, you'll, you'll Connor can watch it and then tell me slash send me the details because I'm terrible about watching anything.
00:54:44
Speaker
that I don't know. So yeah, just compassion there. Yeah, you'll enjoy it. If you give it a chance and have some time, yeah, definitely. All right. I will take your word for it and give it a shot sometime in the nearish future. No promises. So kind of to round out things,
Prized Vintage Possessions
00:55:14
Speaker
What is either your oldest, rarest, most expensive, or best deal item that you can pick up? Any or a mixture of those is very good.
00:55:32
Speaker
uh recently i found on ebay and answered anderson and shepherd tweed suit three fees oh very nice i mean the thing is just beauty i mean it's the heaviest most beautiful maid suit that i've ever seen and i've come across tons of this stuff while i've been you know into
00:55:55
Speaker
into this. So this thing is made like a tank. I mean, it'll last. My great grandkids will probably could wear this thing. But I think I got $400, but it's a gorgeous piece of clothing. So that's probably the rarest in my prize. It's my baby right there. OK. Of course, you can't really wear this thing. You have pictures of that? I'll send them to you. Yeah, I'll send them to you. We got to see it. We got to see this suit, because that sounds amazing.
00:56:25
Speaker
It is, Connor, I mean, it's just phenomenal. And I've got it, and I bought it from this woman in England, I guess her husband had left or whatever, and she was selling it for like $200, $300. It's about my size.
00:56:40
Speaker
And I got it and I was like, I knew from research that Anderson and Shepherd has a tremendous amount of inlay, which means they leave a lot of fabric in there. So if the customer comes back in a few years, they can let it out and make it fit this individual. So I was like, I'm gonna take a gamble. I'm gonna bet there's like a lot of fabric in there. So if I need to make some adjustments, I can. So I got it. Of course there was fabric in there and it's like a glove now. Beautiful.
00:57:08
Speaker
Uh, see, yeah. And then you, and then that's a real victory. Yeah. That's when the internet really wins. Yeah. That's a hundred percent. It sounds like. Yeah. Yeah. So that's probably the best answer we've had to that question as, as, as that goes. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I agree entirely. Uh, well, Darren, dude, thank you so much for coming on. This was hella fun and.
00:57:38
Speaker
A very enlightening conversation on my behalf. I think I can probably speak for Connor. But we also... Good, good. We're happy to hear that. So we always like to give the guests a chance to shout out anything they want to. We did not include your Instagram handle in the intro because we figured you might want to share that, but have at it.
00:58:09
Speaker
Oh, I guess if you guys, if anyone's so inclined, you can feel free to follow me at DarrenJ201 on Instagram. Good content. Not looking to be an influencer, but I am looking to, you know, be a friend. So if you want to come on there and- Yeah, look at that. Let's do it. If not, go fuck yourself. My word's not here.
00:58:42
Speaker
Oh, man. All right, sick. Well, Darren, thank you so much again, everyone listening. Thanks for tuning in. If you like us, please give us a follow on Spotify or whatever app you choose, apocalypseduds.gmail.com. If you have questions, comments, concerns, probably not, but it's fine. I'm Matt Smith at Rebels Ropes.
00:59:12
Speaker
Connor Fowler at Connor Fowler. All right, and thanks for tuning in to the start of season three.