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21: Disclosure Team #71, Richard Doty
673 Plays3 years ago
Richard Doty is a former special agent of the Air Force Office of Special Investigations (AFOSI) that worked as a counterintelligence and disinformation agent to discredit UFO researchers.
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Intro music:
• Track Title:Yearning
• Available at: https://youtu.be/j-UlkEjDAOA
• Beat by Chris Hayes Music
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Disclosure Team is part of the Anomalous Podcast Network: https://audioboom.com/channels/5069292
DISCLAIMER:
FAIR USE NOTICE: This video MAY contain copyrighted material, the use of which has not been specifically authorized by the copyright owner. Disclosure Team distributes this material for the purpose of news reporting, educational research, comment, and criticism, constituting Fair Use under 17 U.S.C § 107.
Intro music:
• Track Title:Yearning
• Available at: https://youtu.be/j-UlkEjDAOA
• Beat by Chris Hayes Music
Recommended
Transcript
Welcome and Introductions
00:00:01
Speaker
You're listening to the Anomalous Podcast Network. Multiple voices, one phenomenon.
00:01:13
Speaker
Hey guys, how's it going? Welcome back to the channel. Before we bring on my guest, I just want to say thank you to everybody that's here watching this live, anyone on YouTube that watches it afterwards, and anybody on the Anomalous Podcast Network. Thank you so much. Also, I just wanted to suggest to anybody that hasn't seen it already, to go and check out Tim McMillan's article over on the debrief.org, a bombshell article today. I highly recommend everybody going to read it.
00:01:41
Speaker
And for everybody that is watching this live, if you could please keep things respectfully clean in the live chat, that would be much appreciated. There's no need for any abuse or any negativity. I mean, you know what I'm trying to say. I'd really appreciate that. If you have any questions for Rick today, please leave them in capital letters. Then I get to see them. I've got more chance of seeing them and all questions. We'll we'll try and ask them if they're relevant to the conversation point that we're talking about. If not, they will be left till the end of the interview.
00:02:11
Speaker
I think that's it for now, guys. So please let me welcome our guest,
Rick Doty's Background in Intelligence and UFOs
00:02:16
Speaker
Rick Doty. Rick, how's it going? Good, Danny. Glad to see you. Thank you so much. Thank you so much for joining me. I really appreciate you taking your time. You're very welcome. So I think before we get into the main interview, Rick, if you could just give us a brief background on yourself, your career, that would be a great start. Thank you. Well, I'm Richard Doty. I worked for the United States Intelligence Service from 1978 to 1988.
00:02:42
Speaker
I worked for the Air Force Office of Special Investigations as a counterintelligence officer.
00:02:49
Speaker
I worked at various locations. Kirtland Air Force Base was just near Albuquerque, New Mexico. And then I worked at Area 51, both within the Nellis Test and Training Range. There's two bases out there. One is Groom Lake Air Force Base and the other is Tonopah Air Force Base. I worked at both of those.
00:03:13
Speaker
I had access to highly classified information pertaining to UFOs in the United States government's program investigating the phenomena of UFOs. We call them UFOs back in those days, not UAPs. And there's other terminologies I'm sure we'll discuss later regarding that particular program. I worked right up until 1988 and I got out.
00:03:40
Speaker
And I worked for a number of different companies, one being the Institute for Advanced Studies at Austin as Dr. Putoff's organization. I worked there for 12 years.
00:03:55
Speaker
And after that, I worked as a private consultant on movie sets. I've been doing that for about 10 years. I've also have a number of YouTube videos and so forth that I've done over the years. That's my background. Before I got into US intelligence,
00:04:15
Speaker
I was in college, and before that I was in a regular Air Force. I served four years in the United States Air Force, got out, went to college, and I came back in working for United States Intelligence. That's pretty much in a nutshell. That's great. Thank you. Thank you.
Key UFO Briefings and Government Actions
00:04:32
Speaker
And so at what point did the UFO topic or subject come into your career? Was it just suddenly on your desk one day?
00:04:40
Speaker
No, actually, yeah, actually, that's exactly how it happened. There was an incident that happened at Kirtland Air Force Base in 1979, early 1979, where a security guard had witnessed a landing of a craft out in a restricted area on the base.
00:05:03
Speaker
At that point, I wasn't briefed into any special programs. And these special programs are called special access programs or SAP.
00:05:12
Speaker
When I started investigating it, I realized that it probably involved something that I hadn't been briefed into or that the government knew and I didn't know. So I asked my supervisor, I briefed him on what I was investigating. Then he sent me over to a special location on the base whereby I got a special briefing, a special access program
00:05:40
Speaker
briefing on the subject of UFOs and the United States government's involvement with UFOs. And that briefing occurred in 1979. It was about a two and a half hour briefing. I was by an Air Force colonel. I was shown a, I was the only one in the room. There are some other people in the room, I think 10 or 12 other people that were being briefed in the same program I was.
00:06:05
Speaker
We were shown a video, a United States government video, or a movie within a video, a movie, a 16 millimeter projector movie, which included part of a recovery operation that occurred near Roswell in 1947.
00:06:25
Speaker
And then we were briefed on what the United States government has been doing from 1947 on. And that's when I realized that we had a captured UFO in 1947. We found another one in 1949. We had a live alien from 1947 to 1952 when he died.
00:06:47
Speaker
And I was also briefed in other crashes that occurred after that. So I was briefed into the program in which it assisted me in the investigation of the incident that had happened on the Kirtland Air Force Base in an area called Coyote Canyon. And that's my beginning. Excellent. I mean, you've already said there about crashes and alien bodies. I mean, that must be highly classified information. So how is it that you're able to freely talk about it so easily?
00:07:17
Speaker
It was at that point. Back in those days, and this is set in 1979, it was classified. It was highly classified back then. But over the years, that information's leaked.
00:07:32
Speaker
almost not everything, but a lot of information that the government had tied up in a special access program has been leaked or been spoken about. And I had a non-disclosure agreement with the government when I got out in 1988, but that expired.
00:07:52
Speaker
Now, there are certain things that
Counterintelligence and the UFO Community
00:07:54
Speaker
I won't talk about, but the mere fact that we had two captured UFOs back in those days that I knew about, that I was briefed into, and one live alien that we found at a crash site near Corona, New Mexico, or people call it the Roswell crash, actually the actual craft crashed near Corona, New Mexico, which is north, about 70 miles north of Roswell.
00:08:21
Speaker
And then the second craft we found out west of their horse mason to Mexico in 1949.
00:08:30
Speaker
All that information's been released, the number of books regarding the Roswell incident, but few people have it all right. I mean, Stan Friedman had it right and some other people have had it right. And then there's some books out there that have it completely wrong, but I was briefed into the official program. I know what officially happened and I'll just accept what the government told me what happened.
00:08:58
Speaker
Fair enough. Yep. Can't argue with that. Now it said that OSI spied on civilian UFO researchers, even breaking and entering homes and feeding them disinformation. Can you tell us about that and why they felt the need to go to such lengths? Were they getting close to the truth? What was the reasons behind all that?
00:09:18
Speaker
Well, the United States government has such a thing as a counterintelligence network around vital installations. And believe it or not, the British MOD, MI5 and MI6 has exact same program as we do. In fact,
00:09:35
Speaker
I sat in a room many, many years ago with MOD people who, and I'm sure most of you know that the Ministry of Defense has a counterintelligence part. They have it.
00:09:51
Speaker
And the object of that is to protect the installations. Just like we have to protect our military installations in the United States. And one of the ways we do it is we set up a counterintelligence network outside the base. And that protects us against foreign intrusions, foreign spies. Now, remember back in those days, we got a cold war going on.
00:10:18
Speaker
because it's trying to spy on us. Of course, we were trying to spy on them too. So we set up a counterintelligence network around the base, and that involves finding out what everybody's doing and what everybody's collecting. And a side note on this is the UFO community. We want to know what the UFO community was doing. We want to know what information they had.
00:10:45
Speaker
and whether they had been penetrated by Soviet or other hostile intelligence agencies, such as the Chinese or East German and so forth. So in order to do that, we would have to penetrate those agencies and keep an eye on what they were doing and what they were gathering. Now, I've never been involved with any operations that,
00:11:13
Speaker
threatened UFO researchers. All we did was keep track of what they knew. We never tried to influence them, at least I never did. But we had to keep track of what they were doing and what they knew. And an example of this is Bill Moore.
00:11:33
Speaker
Most people following the UFO phenomena back in the late 70s and 80s know Bill Moore. He wrote the first book on Roswell, him and Charles Berlitz.
00:11:44
Speaker
I think it was a very, very good book. One of the few things that people don't know is that there's a lot of information about Roswell that Bill had found out about that wasn't in the book. And there's reasons why it was never, never made it into the book. But besides that, we recruited Bill Moore because he was a member of MUFON, APRO, CAUSE.
00:12:13
Speaker
He kept track of what they knew, and he told us what they knew, but at no time did we ever influence.
The Paul Benowitz Case
00:12:21
Speaker
I never broken in any UFON members' houses. I know why you said that, and we'll talk about Paul Benowitz in a little bit.
00:12:36
Speaker
So we just kept track of it. Now, Bill Moore had other connections with us and that dealt with counter espionage because he had information pertaining to and he had contacts within the Soviet Union. And so that's a different program, so to speak.
00:12:57
Speaker
We never broke into any, I didn't, OSI never broke into any researchers, MUFON or APRO or causes residences and installed information. We never bullied them, we never threatened them. That's all made up in the press.
00:13:17
Speaker
OK, yeah, no problem. So I mean, let's talk about Paul Benowitz, because unfortunately, people do associate the disinformation and your interactions with him to to be an influence on what happened to him. So can you break that down and sort of lay out to us how it really went down or your side of things?
00:13:38
Speaker
Well, Paul Benowitz was a, he owned a company right outside the base of Kirtland Air Force Base. It was called Thunder Scientific Laboratories.
00:13:52
Speaker
He made environmental sensors for US submarines. So he had an industrial security clearance. And he made sensitive things for the government of the United States government, not just the sensors for the submarines, but other things for the United States Navy. He lived right outside the base, right outside one of the largest nuclear weapons storage areas in the free world.
00:14:19
Speaker
And he started seeing objects flying around the base, Kirtland Air Force Base. So he was photographing those objects. He also set up scientific collection devices. Now, Paul Benowis was a physicist. He was a scientist.
00:14:36
Speaker
And eventually he thought there was a threat to the base. So he went to the Chief of Security for Manzano Base, which was where the nuclear weapons were stored. The person he contacted was Air Force Lieutenant Colonel Ernie Edwards. And he told Ernie Edwards about what he was seeing near the base.
00:15:01
Speaker
Well, me being the counterintelligence officer for the base, Ernie Edwards, and I knew him very well. He attended most of our security meetings. He immediately called me and said, listen, Rick, I need you to come down to the office. I have something very, very important to tell you. So I did. I went down there and he briefed me on what Paul Benowitz told him. We immediately started an investigation because there was
00:15:28
Speaker
there was a indication of a threat to the base. Paul saw these things flying around. We didn't know what they were. I mean, at least I hadn't been briefed into that program. So we, myself and another person went out to Paul Benowitz's office, the Thunder Scientific Laboratories. I introduced myself as a counterintelligence officer. I didn't hide anything.
00:15:56
Speaker
I said, you provided information to Lieutenant Colonel Ernie Edwards, and we're interested in what you had. Well, Paul opened up. Paul completely opened up about what he was doing, what he saw, what he photographed, showed us the photographs, thought there was a threat. Paul had served in the United States Navy. He was a patriotic American.
00:16:26
Speaker
He had a scientific laboratory that provided very sensitive electronic devices to the United States Navy. So he was concerned. He was really concerned. Now, a side note about Paul. Paul had been a member of APRO since 1960. Paul was a strong believer in UFOs, alien contacts. So he already knew this. He already knew about aliens.
00:16:57
Speaker
After a couple meetings with Paul, he connected what he was seeing with ETs or extraterrestrials. So that's how that connection occurred.
00:17:09
Speaker
What Paul was actually filming, and this is not classified anymore, were the United States Air Force's drone program. We started a drone program, the Air Force did back in the late 70s and early 80s. And the way that the drones were tested back in those days was there would be an airplane flying, a mother ship, so to speak,
00:17:35
Speaker
And these drones would fly out of the airplane, the Air Force plane, and being controlled by operators within inside that plane, that close proximity. And so what Paul was taking pictures of were these drones flying around this airplane, an Air Force plane, and Paul immediately thought that there were UFOs flying around an Air Force plane.
00:18:01
Speaker
We never told Paul initially, we didn't tell him initially. Eventually we did, but not initially. We didn't tell him that was an Air Force project. At that time, that drone program was highly classified, highly classified. So we didn't tell him that.
00:18:17
Speaker
Now, a few other things Paul moved into was that we had a national security agency site on the base. And that site was highly classified. The fact that it was there was classified. It's not classified anymore. Anything I'm telling you now is not classified. Paul was photographing strange occurrences coming from that national security agency, their NSA site.
00:18:46
Speaker
And he also collected signal frequencies coming from there. And what Paul accidentally, I think, got himself into or tapped into was another highly classified program where we were firing a laser up in the sky and blinding Soviet satellites as they were going over the area of the base.
00:19:16
Speaker
And it's not classified anymore, but at that time, obviously it was. So putting all those things together, we had to convince Paul. We didn't want to release the fact that he tapped into two highly classified programs. So I suggested to Paul that maybe what he was seeing were real UFOs, alien spaceships.
00:19:42
Speaker
And it didn't take much to convince him otherwise because he already believed it. That's how the disinformation started with Paul. I didn't have to fool him. I didn't have to present him with anything. I just had to put that suggestion in his mind, me and others. There were other people involved in this. And Paul ran with it. And we told Paul, listen,
00:20:06
Speaker
This is classified part. You can't tell anybody. Well, he didn't, with exception of a few people, such as Alan Heineck, who was involved in this program, and some others. But that's how the Paul Benowitz project occurred. I appreciate you giving us that. And just before you move on, the two programs, the classified programs that you mentioned, the laser and the drone, do you happen to know the code names for either of those projects?
00:20:37
Speaker
The drone program was amber something and I don't remember the NSA project. It was an NSA code name for it but well at the time I didn't know what it was. I had to get briefed into the program with NSA and that of course presented a lot of problems because
00:21:04
Speaker
When we briefed NSA security, they immediately began their own investigation. Unbeknownst to us, they had a parallel investigation going on as we did. Now our investigation involved the FBI because the FBI is responsible for any type of espionage occurring in the United States. So we had to bring the FBI in.
00:21:29
Speaker
And NSA didn't, NSA had a purely secretive investigation program. And so I eventually got briefed into it, but it took some time to do that. That's fair enough. No, I mean, I suppose you didn't know what the outcome would be when it came to Paul Benowitz. But I mean, I suppose at the end of it, did you feel any kind of guilt or regret or of even being a part in what happened to him? How did it make you feel?
00:21:59
Speaker
Well, the Paul Benowitz case, his project was called Seven Lambs. Seven Lambs, that was the investigation of Paul Benowitz. And that's been released before. There are a lot of other things that occurred regarding this project and this investigation that just that. Paul Benowitz was a pilot
00:22:24
Speaker
He flew his own Cessna, a single-engine Cessna 182, and he flew around taking pictures. Well, Paul actually photographed some real UFOs, which he came back and showed us. He had his own photo lab, so he developed his own photos and showed us these things.
00:22:49
Speaker
Paul also was given a monitor, a computer monitor by Alan Heineck, unbeknownst to us. And that computer monitor was strange in itself because back in those days in the 1980s, Commodore made a computer, a small computer, but didn't make anything in color.
00:23:15
Speaker
Well, somehow Paul got his, he got color, he was taking screenshots with his camera of colored photographs on his computer. We don't know how he did that. In fact, we eventually took it, seized his computer monitor and tried to figure out how that worked.
00:23:37
Speaker
Paul thought all along that he had contact with ETs. He was getting strange signals, strange writings. He calls it the alien alphabet. And he was taking camera shots. I shouldn't say screenshots, but he said camera shots of him.
00:23:57
Speaker
And so we had a deal with that trying to figure out what he was doing, how he was seeing these things, and whether in fact maybe he really was in contact with ETs. And then on the other side of this was the other complex investigation involving one of his employees,
00:24:18
Speaker
who actually had contacts with a foreign government. So we had an espionage investigation going on. So all those things dealt into the Paul Benowitz story, which the investigation lasted seven years, eventually ended.
00:24:36
Speaker
I maintained friendship with Paul all during this time period. I eventually told Paul, you know, what you were seeing was something, you know, what you initially were seeing, the photographs you were seeing came from a drone program and another highly classified program. Well, he wouldn't believe me. He goes, no, you don't have to tell me. I know they're UFOs. He would never believe anything other than what he, regarding the UFOs.
00:25:05
Speaker
You spoke earlier about breaking into people houses. Paul Benowitz during this investigation gave us cart block permission to enter his residence anytime that we needed to. He gave us his key. He gave us a written document saying, yeah, you can go in anytime you want to. We did. We did do that. In initial phases of our investigation, we wanted to make sure Paul wasn't making all this up.
00:25:34
Speaker
And there were a number of things happened, and we saw, Mitch, maybe I can talk about later, that made me think that there was something to what Paul was saying about his house being monitored by something that could very well have been extraterrestrial. But that's how we entered his home. He gave us permission to do that. Oh, I lost you there for a second, sorry.
00:26:03
Speaker
Sorry, I think you're back now. Well, listen, I appreciate you go. Can you hear me OK? Yeah, I can hear you. OK, great. No worries. No worries. I wasn't sure if we'd frozen or anything. Now, again, I appreciate you giving us the lowdown on that. Now, the next thing I'd like to speak about is the aviary.
The Aviary Group and Covert Operations
00:26:21
Speaker
So I've got a few questions before we do so. Can you just give us a breakdown of how that came about, if you don't mind?
00:26:29
Speaker
Well the aviary was a special group of people. Now we didn't name it aviary. We had a we had this special group of people that met beginning in the 1980s early but 1980 actually October 1980
00:26:47
Speaker
And I was brought into it as a neophyte. I mean, I was just young intelligence officer. I didn't know much about the subject. There were a lot of people that were brought into this group that were seasoned intelligence officers.
00:27:07
Speaker
The leader of our group was Richard Helms, who was a former director of Central Intelligence Agency. He wasn't involved directly with the government at that time. And there were a number of other people that were brought in, Kit Green, Dr. Hal Putoff, and a number of other people. And our job was trying to figure out
00:27:34
Speaker
how we can disclose the subject to the public in a common sense manner that would not, number one, endanger national security, release anything that was classified, and not upset the public.
00:27:57
Speaker
And so that's what our goal was. We met periodically about every three months or so. We were quasi-I government. We were supported by the government indirectly and we reported to the government and the government kept track of us. Now, Bill Moore and a guy by name, Jamie Shandera, learned about the group.
00:28:27
Speaker
they're the ones that named us bird names. So the aviary, we weren't known as the aviary within our group, we were just a working group and that's what we did. Sometime in the 84, 85, I met with Bill Moore who told me about
00:28:53
Speaker
this group. And I said, well, he said, you guys have names. And that's how the aviary came into existence as far as the public's knowledge of what the aviary was.
00:29:08
Speaker
Now, I just wondered if I go through the list of members, you'd be able to give me an indication or an idea of their relation to the UFO subject going into the formation of the group in the eighties. So, so Richard Helms, you know, what was his interest or was he working within the, you know, the government on UFOs before the aviary?
00:29:29
Speaker
Richard Helms came into the agency at the beginning of the creation of the Central Intelligence Agency. He was involved in army intelligence prior to that and the Office of Strategic Intelligence. And he was a
00:29:50
Speaker
a station chief. He worked his way up through the CIA. He had been briefed on a couple of different programs that the Central Intelligence Agency had that were dealt with the UFOs. He didn't have full access. He always told us he had
00:30:09
Speaker
He was 50. He was 50-50, meaning he had 50% knowledge of the subject and 50% information he wish he had. So he was 50-50. 50 in, 50 out. Anyways, eventually over the years, he became more involved in a program. But of course, he got
00:30:31
Speaker
into the dark side of the program, so to speak, when the agency was investigated in the 70s in regards to assassinations and so forth. And then eventually he got out of the agency. He retired, but he maintained contact
00:30:58
Speaker
And I don't exactly know who selected him as the leader of the aviary, but when I was brought into it, Richard Helms was the leader of our group.
00:31:18
Speaker
And then moving on. He had he had knowledge of the subject. In fact, when we were when we were being briefed at these meetings, he had intimate knowledge of the subject matter. So, yeah, he knew. Moving on to kick green. What were you aware of regarding UFOs and kick green in 1980?
00:31:40
Speaker
Well, first of all, Dr. Green and I worked on classified programs together. I knew Kit for a good many years. Dr. Green, he was a doctor, a medical doctor, and he was involved with remote viewing with Dr. Putoff back in the 70s.
00:32:03
Speaker
And Kit Green had been briefed into the program on the medical side of it, medical knowledge. So that was his connection to the aviary. Yeah, and I suppose moving on next would be, well, let's deal with Hal Puthoff then, because you mentioned him there. So I suppose, is that a similar vein to Kit Green, you know, SRI, DIA, CIA, that kind of connection?
00:32:26
Speaker
Yes, Dr. Putoff was in a Navy, was a physicist in a Navy, worked on lasers way back in the 60s. He eventually went to Sanford, got involved in SDI, the Mobile Viewing Program, on the scientific side of it, not on the remote viewing side, not on the paranormal side of it.
00:32:48
Speaker
And he was one of the chiefs involved in the setting up the remote viewing program for the military and for the intelligence community. And so he had knowledge because of his work both in the remote viewing, the fact that they had remote viewers that were,
00:33:15
Speaker
remote viewing the moon and Mars and spaceships flying around Earth. So we had knowledge of that. But I didn't know everything that Dr. Putoff was working on back in those days, but I knew he had knowledge of the subject.
00:33:33
Speaker
accident. I've just got a quick question here that's kind of relevant to what we're talking about with regards to Kit Green. He stated he was shown an alien autopsy. Are you aware of a real autopsy video within the Intel circles at that time or around then? Yes, there were real autopsies performed and the
00:34:01
Speaker
ETs that were from the crash, the dead ETs from the crash in Corona, there were autopsies done by the Armed Forces Institute of Pathology on those beings.
00:34:13
Speaker
And then there were other crashes where there were dead ETs that there were autopsies. And every one of those were filmed. And, you know, I don't want to speak for Dr. Green. I wasn't present when, and I don't know exactly what he saw, but I'm sure he had access to those. Brilliant. Thank you. Moving on. What about Bruce McAfee? What was his connection to the UFO subject?
00:34:43
Speaker
Bruce Maccabee was a optical scientist and he had, his access was more in line with technology, understanding the technology from extraterrestrial crafts. That was his knowledge. Brilliant. Ron Pandolfi.
00:35:11
Speaker
Ron Pandolfi was within the central, he was a CIA officer. He was in a paranormal, sat in a paranormal desk at the CIA. And so he had, he certainly had knowledge of the subject. He had been briefed into the program and he had the, he was more or less a representative from the CIA on the group.
00:35:37
Speaker
Brilliant. Someone who I don't think many people might not have heard of is Ernie Keller-Strauss. Ernie Keller-Strauss was an Air Force scientist who had knowledge about technical projects that the government was working on in the reverse engineering program.
00:36:03
Speaker
Is it right am I right in saying that he'd examined UFO artifacts, then in that program. Yes, yes, yes, he did brilliant Captain Robert Collins.
00:36:14
Speaker
Captain Robert Collins was a scientist, Air Force scientist at the Wright-Patterson Air Force Base, and he had to add access to some of the artifacts that they had taken off, ET crafts that were being examined at the Wright-Patterson Institute for, I think the Air Force
00:36:39
Speaker
Institute of Technology, and that's where he was, and that's where some of these items were taken. And back in 40s, the only place that was dealing in a subject
00:36:59
Speaker
was at Wright-Patterson Field, at Wright Field. And so a lot of these artifacts were taken there. Now we had Los Alamos National Laboratories, but they were more or less in the nuclear arena, not in the technology arena. Initially, I think most, don't quote me on this, but I think most of the devices that we didn't understand was taken to Wright-Patterson.
00:37:27
Speaker
Right, lovely. Dan Smith. Dan Smith was a civilian, and he was an in-between, a go-between. He was somebody we used to get information from the outside. And I'll just leave it at that. No problem. Am I right in saying he was a civilian UFO researcher? Yes, yes, you're correct. Excellent. Colonel John Alexander.
00:37:58
Speaker
Colonel John Alexander was a United States Army officer involved in highly classified projects, both within the Army's Institute of Advanced Technology and at Los Alamos.
00:38:22
Speaker
And so he was involved in a lot of different aspects of the subject of UFOs. I'll just leave that at that. No problem. And then finally, I've got commander CB Scott Jones. Scott Jones was a reserve United States Navy commander. He was an aide to Senator Claiborne Pell of Rhode Island.
00:38:49
Speaker
And Senator Pell was our connection with the United States Senate and funding
00:39:05
Speaker
If we needed something as far as money or other things, he could satisfy our needs, so to speak. And Scott Jones was Senator Pell's aide, Chief of Staff. So that's how Scott was involved in this.
00:39:33
Speaker
And am I right in saying that Harry Reid was somehow in discussions with the group at some point? There was a connection somewhere with Harry Reid. Harry Reid didn't come into existence within the Avery area until the early 2000s. OK.
00:39:52
Speaker
Yeah, back in the 80s, I'm not really sure. I think he was a lawyer in Nevada at the time, or in Washington DC, but no, he wasn't involved until later. But here he was, the late Harry Reid. He was involved in the subject later on, yes, yes. Now, let me say that the names that you gave me are just a few of the names are involved. There's many others.
00:40:22
Speaker
that are involved that you don't have names to. And some of the other people were temporary members. In fact, they came in for a particular reason and then got out. So there were 18 total that we had brought in and out of the group over the years.
00:40:51
Speaker
Are you able to give us any of those names that I haven't said? No. And there's a reason that some of them are still involved. OK. And let me just say this, and this is about all I can say about it. The aviary still exists. It's still out there. Interesting. Not necessarily with the same people, OK? Because obviously, some of them have died over the years and so forth.
00:41:17
Speaker
And this is sanctioned by the government or within military or the intelligence community? I would say within the intelligence community. Interesting, very interesting. I'm just going to bring this question up here from Sean. So what stopped the Avery Group from disclosing as that was the goal? Well, it was a complicated process. We had to
00:41:45
Speaker
Number one, we had to create a plan. I mean, everything within government is done by a plan. I mean, you had to do a written plan. And we did, we had a very, very, I thought, and I was just a young guy, you know, I was 27, 28 years old.
00:42:04
Speaker
I wasn't the senior person, obviously. I was a very low person in that group. But I had jobs and things I had to do, and I did it. Senior representatives in the group, they created a plan, an operational plan, on how we should proceed with disclosure.
UFO Disclosure Challenges and Efforts
00:42:28
Speaker
It was so complicated that you had to get so many different agencies to agree to it.
00:42:37
Speaker
You understand, from 1947, when the Roswell craft crashed in 1947, the second craft in 1949. But in 1947, we didn't have an Air Force. We had, and we didn't have an intelligence community. We didn't have a CIA. We had the Army Air Force. We still had the Army actually took over the OSS. So their intelligence was coming from the Army.
00:43:06
Speaker
The National Security Act was passed in September of 1947, the creation of the United States Air Force and a central intelligence agency. But the CIA never actually got off the ground until 51. I mean, it took some years to form it and so forth. So we had a deal with some older operational plans that were in place after the Roswell craft crashed.
00:43:36
Speaker
And then in 1960, the DIA came into existence, the Defense Intelligence Agency. And just bear with me on this, okay? I'm giving some historical. In 1969, the United States Air Force wanted to get out of it. The Air Force says, listen, we don't want this program. The UFO, the Project Blue Book, Project Grudge, Project Sign, the Air Force had. We wanted to get out of it.
00:44:05
Speaker
They created this condom report, and it was actually written by the Air Force. I think most people, any kind of common sense, can figure it out that it wasn't done by condom. It was his name stuck to the report. The Air Force wrote it to get out of it. But the Air Force had to find some agency to take it over. The DIA
00:44:29
Speaker
relatively new agency, 10 years old or nine years old, raised her hand and said, we'll take it. We got to have something to do. So all this was given over to the DIA. Now, if it would have stayed in a DIA during that time period, I think we could have had a disclosure. But what happened was the Navy became involved in this Office of Naval Intelligence.
00:44:57
Speaker
Then the O&I was collecting information about the subject of UFOs, incidents involving Navy, just the Navy, and never sharing it with the DIA, keeping it in house. And of course, the Air Force, 1971, decided, you know, this could be a threat to national security, so we have to keep involved in this.
00:45:23
Speaker
So now the Air Force is involved in it, and they're not sharing their information with the DIA. So now you got all these different agencies involved in this. And now when we become a quasi-I entity of the government that wants disclosure, we have to coordinate all this with all these different agencies.
00:45:48
Speaker
Again, in 1980 time period, we had the National Reconnaissance Office, NRO, they're involved in it. They're not sharing with anybody but certain members of the Air Force because they're getting their funding directly from the Air Force. That was a complicated description of it. And that's why we were not able to fully
00:46:16
Speaker
be able to implement our program or operational plan for disclosure. And another problem we had, how much disclosure could we give? Now, are we going to give everything to the American public? No, we can't. We're not going to give technical information. You know, all the neat things that we,
00:46:41
Speaker
found out in reverse engineering, we don't want the Russians or the Soviets back in those days or the red Chinese or any other hostile intelligence or governments to know about what we know about or what we found out. So we couldn't tell them anything technical. What about the religious aspect of it? I think that scared everybody the most.
00:47:08
Speaker
What if we said, okay, you know, yeah, something came here in 1947 and we had a live alien and he told us that he'd been visiting earth for 2000 years and he was here 2000 years ago. What's the immediately thought, the thinking process of somebody that's religious? Oh my God, did the alien put Jesus on earth? So,
00:47:34
Speaker
That plant played into our problem with disclosure. No, fair enough. Great question here by Jay Allen, which is also on my list is, what are your thoughts on Bob Lazar's story?
00:47:50
Speaker
Well, I was at area 51. I was a count intelligence officer. I think it's, there's the smarter people out there figured that out. Even full class got some records. Anyways, I was a, I was a count intelligence officer out there. I knew about S two, not S four. The problem with Bob Lazar story is that S four
00:48:16
Speaker
was a fourth level under S2. The complex is called S2. S meaning site, site two. And S4 was a fourth level.
00:48:30
Speaker
I was at S2 a number of times. That's administrative control operations for at the lower levels. I was never at S4, never was down at S4, never saw what was down at S4. I just didn't have a clearance or didn't have a need to know.
00:48:51
Speaker
When Bob Lazar's story came out in 1969, I checked with one of the chief of securities out there who was very, very, very close to me. I mean, I just left the intelligence community and he checked and yeah, Bob Lazar did work out there.
00:49:12
Speaker
I think it was only for 96 days or something like that, 98 days or something like that. He did work out there. He did have access to S4, but that's the only thing I can say. I don't know anything else about what he saw or what he did down there.
00:49:33
Speaker
Great. Thank you. I'm just going to move on to a few questions I've got here from sent in by different followers on social media. So first of all, your name asks, why has the military or whoever did fake alien abductions? What was the point of doing that? Probably my weakest area is abductions. I know we investigated them. I investigated some abductions.
00:50:05
Speaker
I don't know about any actual United States government abductions. So no my labs or anything like that. There were, let me say this, there were some specific operations that occurred to protect
00:50:31
Speaker
other projects. I'll give you an example, okay? There was an Air Force major who had access to a program and highly classified. And he started to disclose it to somebody that shouldn't know about it. So we faked
00:51:01
Speaker
an abduction of the person that he was giving the information to, to throw her, it was a female, throw her off. That's the only
00:51:18
Speaker
fake abduction that I ever knew about within the government. Now, there may have been others. You got to understand there's other agencies working this. The 7602nd Air Intelligence Squadron at the Fort Belvoir, Virginia, the real
00:51:39
Speaker
real men in black, did some things that I never had access to. So it could have happened, but I only knew one instance and I told you that. Great. Thank you very much. It's a question from Dave Partridge. On Fade to Black a couple of years ago, you mentioned that there were two disinformation agents that you knew of active within the UFO community. One that's been around for years and one younger in comparison. Are you able to disclose who they were or are?
00:52:09
Speaker
No, I think they did. I think they disclosed themselves. Yeah, a UFO convention some years ago, one particular one sat in a room and said that he had been co-opted by a particular person, intelligence officer, not me, he named that intelligence officer. And while the other one, I think everybody knows Bill Moore,
00:52:35
Speaker
I mean, Bill Moore was the other one. So the younger one, he'd already disclosed his name. I can't remember what UFO convention that was, 2006 or 2007, sometime in there. And then of course, Bill Moore. We know Bill Moore was one of the others. OK, that's great. Now, that's something we can look into. Appreciate it.
00:53:02
Speaker
Did you play this is from Matthew Willsey. Did you play any part in the creation or dissemination of any materials related to majestic 12? No, absolutely not. I think I was clear to that in 1960 and 1987 and 89 FBI investigated it and the the MJ 12 documents.
00:53:29
Speaker
contained about 70 percent factual information and the other 30 percent, well I should say 30, 20 percent with maybe speculation and 10 percent was outright lies, false information.
00:53:46
Speaker
But it was created by the government. I think this has been out there a long time. People don't want to believe it. People want to believe that the MJ-12 document was created by me, or Bill Moore, or Jamie Shandera, or Carl Dale. I mean, all these names were involved in creating these documents. And none of it's factual. They write a book, and it has to sound good. So they throw my name in there and others.
00:54:15
Speaker
But the documents were created for a reason. And I was not involved in that. There were hundreds and hundreds of other people involved in this program besides me. And so other people and the entity that created that document, I think, Wendell Stevens, and most people know who Wendell Stevens is, he had some really neat documents
00:54:45
Speaker
that suggested the Defense Intelligence Agency Special Means Committee actually created that document. So, you know, that's the truth and you want to believe it, you believe it, you don't want to believe it, you don't have to believe it.
00:55:04
Speaker
No, fair enough. The question from Jay Allen here. Is there an influence operation, Men in Black, to keep people quiet? Is this a shadow game parallel to an actual alien MIB operation? Well, there's an NED called, or there's an organization back in those days called the 7602nd Air Intelligence Wing.
00:55:33
Speaker
Detachment 22, detachment 22 contained some very strange people.
00:55:43
Speaker
They were people that could speak different languages. They're people that look differently, had different facial appearances. Some say they had plastic surgery. I don't know about that. I've never heard that anybody purposely had their face manipulated in a way.
00:56:04
Speaker
And some of them were safe crackers, actors, actresses. There's men, women. There's all different races involved in this, African-Americans, Hispanic. And they're assigned to this particular detachment. And their job is to collect intelligence, deep cover intelligence operations. And one of their jobs is the Men in Black stories.
00:56:33
Speaker
I know I met them. I met some of these people. They visited witnesses after I did. So yes, the government does have people, they don't call themselves men in black.
00:56:47
Speaker
But they're out there for a particular reason. Most of what they do are really highly classified, super secret stuff that they penetrate foreign governments. And it doesn't necessarily pertain to UFOs, any kind of intelligence. But there is an organization that people could go back and claim to be
00:57:17
Speaker
the real men in black. Yeah, great. The next question I've actually got a few times was regarding some documents that you showed to Linda Moulton-Hown. I'm assuming it's to do with DNA manipulation. It's been manipulated 65 times in order to create homo sapiens sapiens. Were they true documents? Was that not true? Was it disinformation? Can you tell us about those documents? The Linda Howell case,
00:57:46
Speaker
I was given a task. Now, everything I did was sanctioned by the government, obviously, or I would be in jail someplace. I was tasked with contacting Linda Howell because she was a really good researcher and she had contacts within the government that we were worried about. And my job was to meet up with her, get to know her,
00:58:15
Speaker
tried a recruiter, number one, and then tried to find out who her sources were within Washington, D.C. So I contacted her. I brought her out to the base. I brought her into a very, very secure area.
00:58:33
Speaker
I set her in a particular location where she could be filmed, do a one-way mirror. She describes us probably better than I do. And I showed her some documents that I had gotten that morning from an armed forces courier, a highly classified document. Armed forces courier service, only transports, highly classified, has to be above, top secret above. I got it into my office.
00:59:01
Speaker
I opened it with my supervisor present because we both had to sign.
00:59:07
Speaker
And I was to show her those documents. And I did that. She came in, she sat down, everything was recorded. I had other people looking in. I gave her the document. I said, you can look at this document. You can read this document. You can't take notes. You can't photograph. As soon as you're done reading it, it goes back in the safe folder. The safe folder is a folder that will
00:59:36
Speaker
that you put a document in and if you close it in a certain way, if you try to open it in a certain way, there's small thermite strips that burns the document. And I had to send it back. So what she read was what I was given to tell her to read, showed her. So now you're asking me, is everything in a document real?
01:00:02
Speaker
you'd have to go back and ask the government that because I don't know, I read it. It was a thick document and had the complete history of U.S. involvement, including the DNA studies. Very few people ever had access to that stuff. And so what she read, I would assume was factual, at least most of it.
01:00:32
Speaker
And after she was finished reading it, put it back in a container, then she asked me a lot of questions I couldn't answer. And then I took her back off the base. Now, I've maintained contact with Linda Howell for years, but we could never recruit her as an asset.
Hidden Projects and New Disclosure Initiatives
01:00:52
Speaker
She's just too smart. She knew what we were trying to do. She didn't want to tell us sources. And so we just left it at that.
01:01:01
Speaker
And we, we never bugged, we never bugged her car. I mean, I heard, I read this a few months ago or back in November that we were allegedly planted devices in her home and we never did any of that. That's absolutely false. Brilliant. Jefferson Lee asks, what aerospace corporations do you know that are hiding advanced physics or advanced materials that are allegedly not of human origins?
01:01:33
Speaker
That's a loaded question. One of the ways the United States government hides information is through the contractors. I worked for Dr. Putoff in the Institute for Advanced Studies at Austin. He had DARPA contracts.
01:01:55
Speaker
I saw it firsthand there. That's all. I'll just say that. Because I can't talk about what I did with Dr. Putoff because it's proprietary in his information. So I'm not going to talk about it with exception that the government hides highly classified reverse engineering projects within contractors. Because contractors are not subject to FOIA under Title V United States Code. They're exempt.
01:02:25
Speaker
So I would look at E-Systems, Skunkworks, Tectronics Corporation. There's just a few that I would look at. Brilliant. That's something for people to go on. A question here from Insta Verne. Could you please ask him about deceptive indication or warnings projects or expand on what you know about false I&W programs?
01:02:54
Speaker
So I guess false flags, if anything. Yeah, I mean, they occur within the intelligence community. We sometimes, we used to use the Canadian Secret Service to mask some things, complicated
01:03:16
Speaker
false flag is using other people's identity to get information, not connecting it back to the originating agency. That's about all I can say about it because a lot of those things are still pretty classified.
01:03:40
Speaker
That's great. Thank you. Now, one final question before we end is you mentioned recently in a recent interview that you are actually forming a new group. Is that something that you can expand on a bit or at least tell us what the what the intentions are? Well, we have we have a group. We've had a group of retired intelligence officers. We've had I've been a member for years and we're trying to
01:04:09
Speaker
work with some other entities for a disclosure. But again, it's a very, very, very complicated situation. Number one, we have to be very careful that we don't disclose any classified information, because we're going to end up being prosecuted in court. Number two, we can't identify anyone within the intelligence community
01:04:40
Speaker
that is working on these projects because there's a law that says you can't disclose an undercover person, an intelligence officer. So you can't do that. And we don't want to do that.
01:04:52
Speaker
So we're trying to work with Congress. People like, well, Harry Reid was one, but of course he died. Marco Rubio, Senator Rubio, there's a number of different senators and congressmen on both sides of the aisle, both Democrats and Republicans that we're working with trying to get some legislation passed.
01:05:19
Speaker
that could protect people from disclosing certain things about the subject. And before we ever disclose what we want to disclose or start a really, really successful disclosure program, we want some laws on our side. And that's what we have to do first.
01:05:44
Speaker
I appreciate that so much. And Rick, thank you so much. We are out of time. But I really, really say thank you so much for coming on and answering the questions. It's been great. I really appreciate it. So yeah, thank you so much. You're very welcome. Take care. Thank you so much. You're welcome. Bye bye.
01:06:04
Speaker
Well, guys, thank you so much to everybody here live watching. I really appreciated all the input, the questions, for keeping it nice and mature in the chat. We'll be back next week, but for all details on upcoming shows, you can follow me over on Instagram and on Twitter. All the details are below. But for now, guys, thank you so much. I hope you all have a good rest of your day, and I'll see you soon. Take care.