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S5.E8 - The Truth about Literary Agents
31 Plays1 hour ago
A deep dive into literary agents, meeting them, signing with them and the continued relationship.
- Naomi Gibson, author of Every Line of You, Game Over Girl, Man Muse Monster
- Melissa Welliver, author of The Undying Tower, My Love Life and the Apocalypse, Soulmates and Other Ways to Die, To the Death
- Jamie Greenwood, creator & host of The Write and Wrong Podcast
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Transcript
Introduction and Audience Engagement
00:00:00
Speaker
Hello, we would love to hear from you. If you have any stories or anecdotes about publishing, good or bad, we would love to hear about them and we'll talk about them. Or if you just have any questions or if you think it's anything we missed in in this episode or any of the previous episodes, reach out to us. You can find all of us on social media, on Instagram, or wherever it might be, or you can head it to the Right and Wrong podcast website. Yeah, all our DMs are open. Send us messages, let know what what you've been up to in publishing. We'd love to talk about it and and hear about it.
Character Analysis in Media
00:00:29
Speaker
Shrek and Christian Grey are different characters. Wow. You heard it here first. After every episode was like, oh my gosh, I'm so angry at these toxic characters. Like, shove more food in my mouth, press next episode. I loved it, but obviously I hate it. This is so much fun. Because this is it my Malfoy-Himailu fanboy.
00:00:50
Speaker
She shouldn't have done that. I'm trying to make Neville happen. It's too wholesome.
00:00:57
Speaker
too wholesome but first um i have a one-star review for you guys this is a funny one i was i was happy to have found this one okay i agree with edward cullen on one thing i have no idea how anybody likes this book so it's twilight then is it it's not twilight Oh, oh, wait, what book does he talk about? Oh, Melva. He talks about a book?
00:01:34
Speaker
Yeah. He does, apparently. Oh, they read a lot of plays in those books. ah Is it a classic? Romeo and Juliet, etc. It is a classic, yes. Is it like Walden or something?
00:01:46
Speaker
No, it's, it's um I would say, in the zeitgeist at the moment. Oh. Pride and Prejudice? No. Oh, Wuthering Heights. Wuthering Heights. That's it. Yes. It's Wuthering Heights.
00:01:59
Speaker
my gosh, I got one. Well done. did. Good job. Yay. You did. Edward Cullen does not like Wuthering Heights, apparently. He literally is Wuthering Heights. How can he not like it Yeah, it does feel somewhat inspired, right? No one likes being seen in the black mirror.
Author-Agent Relationship Dynamics
00:02:18
Speaker
ah Awesome. So on this week's episode, we are going to talk about um the author's relationship with an agent. We've absolutely touched on this in previous episodes and previous seasons, but we wanted to do more of a deep dive and really kind of talk about what it is, because I think um there's probably a lot of misconceptions about it.
00:02:41
Speaker
and and ah When I first started looking into publishing, I absolutely did not know kind of what the situation was, how it worked, what agents did, like what they were like as people. um I think it's quite easy to to kind of make the assumption that they're a bit, that it's just a business relationship and they're a bit standoffish because a lot of people's first introduction to agents is that they are just this sort of like a picture on a website with an email that you submit to and then probably get rejected by like a
00:03:13
Speaker
pre-written message. Right. This is obviously not, this is not how, you know, I would define agents. This is not, you know, their primary characteristic. I've spoken to plenty of them on right and wrong.
00:03:25
Speaker
um And I've spoken to lots of authors about their relationship. So I know now that it's, it's a lot deeper than that. um But yeah, I can understand why people aren't sure. and they And they think it's just purely a business relationship. I mean, for me,
00:03:42
Speaker
my only prior to like looking into publishing my only reference for what an agent is and was and did and interacted with the author was uh a television show castle um which is not a great accurate representation i would say of what an agent does it's not a documentary it's not a documentary no um and in that show i think it's his ex-wife but or like they had a relationship at one point who is his agent.
00:04:11
Speaker
And then she just always seems to be nagging him for chapters. And I'm like, I don't think that's... really the role of the agent anymore. Right. Yeah, exactly.
00:04:23
Speaker
You know, that's not even really editors on, I guess in some situations they, they want chapters, but most of the time the editor is just like, give me the whole manuscript. Yeah. Yeah.
00:04:34
Speaker
Yeah. Um, so by my count, Melissa, you've worked with two agents and Naomi, as of very recently, you've worked with three.
00:04:45
Speaker
Yep. Um, so let's start, start at the beginning then going way back when, before you guys were agented, did you guys have those similar preconceptions like I did about what agents were and what agents did before you kind of met your first agent?
00:05:05
Speaker
Oh, no, I didn't know. any This is the other problem as well. It's one of those opaque things for me. I had I had no idea what an agent was supposed to do and no idea what I thought they might do. yeah i think this is a problem that you come across, especially ah with people. You know, a lot of people say a bad agent is worse than no agent.
00:05:26
Speaker
And there are um not at the main agencies, not with people with proper you know websites, etc. But of course, there are people sort of masquerading as agents and you know writers get sucked in. And they just the reason I think that happens is because people don't know what an agent relationship is supposed to look like. that They think they're supposed to be ghosted or they think that they're bothering their agent. and that's just not the case at all so I had actually nothing because I didn't really know ah i must admit when I first started querying I was really green I didn't really know anything about it I just knew I had to have an agent sell to a publisher yeah so didn't really think about it I'm really glad you said that because similarly I had no idea it was like I know I need one because otherwise they won't be published um and then when I got one I was like with Joe I was like huh okay I'm like at a certain point in
00:06:17
Speaker
but my writing has kind of been benchmarked i felt like it was a bit of a benchmark in terms of your ability um yeah and then after that i was like really scared to get in touch with her so okay which i think is part of that preconception where you think like oh this is a this is very much a strictly business like yeah with proo transactional relationship yeah but it's not no
Balancing Business and Personal Connections
00:06:43
Speaker
Not really. Well, I suppose in some ways. The the thing of it is it's it's a funny relationship, actually, because it is a financial relationship at its core. Like you need each other. You're going to make money together. That's the whole point. But you can't not be friends with these people because you're going to talk to them probably a lot.
00:07:01
Speaker
and Yeah. um So if you and it's a tricky one because so I've sent books to like Jo, for example, and she hasn't liked them, which is fair enough. And when she's giving me feedback, I can tell that she's like, I really don't want to upset you.
00:07:15
Speaker
um And it's like this funny line to tread where and as a friend, she doesn't want to upset me. But as an agent, she's like, we can't sell this. you know yeah yeah Yeah, exactly. Whereas on the flip side, I ah have very similar TV taste to Lucy and On actual April 1st, I'm so, I'm so stupid on actual April 1st, I got really excited because we both watch lost. Like something we bonded over on somebody posted that they're doing like a new loss spinoff with Josh Holloway called lost. We have to go back. And I was so convinced, like it was such a realistic. And I sent it to Lucy and I've literally got the message open here. sent it to her on WhatsApp and was like, oh my God, oh my God, look at this. He's attached to the project. Go back to your day if you can. And then 10 minutes later, this is an April Fool's. I'm devastated. I can't believe I texted you about this.
00:08:08
Speaker
You know, also you can look like a complete idiot in front of your agent and that's fine because she thought it was very funny. She said it made her day. Three crying laughing faces. Yeah.
00:08:19
Speaker
That is funny. And I can vouch for for that when Melissa and Lucy came on the Right and Wrong podcast a while ago and we spent about 10 minutes, I think, just talking about skull and bones.
00:08:31
Speaker
Yeah. So... Do you think there is a difference there in that Lucy is much more our generation? Um, whereas Joe is, Joe is like a bit older. Do you feel like you can connect more with Lucy because she's like, well, you're probably more likely to like the same things. So like you guys have a, you guys could, could probably be friends outside of the relationship of like work and things like that.
00:09:00
Speaker
Yeah, it's an interesting one because I have only child syndrome in that quite a lot of my friends are um older than me because I don't know, perhaps I'm always seeking a sibling. Perhaps therapist could have a field day as to why this is. um But I think the important thing with an agent that is useful to have in common, which is something that a lot of friendships stem from, and you're right, obviously Lost specifically because we're both say millennials. It was a particular time when we were like at school watching Lost. So there is that thing there, that extra sort of thing.
00:09:30
Speaker
weigh in um but i think it's important when you're writing books to obviously like the same sort of tv shows and books and films because obviously then you've got similar tastes in terms of what you want to sell together yeah so there's like an extra layer that actually still makes it a bit businessy i have the same uh relationship with i know we're talking agents but um my current editor at her share uh katie levy we literally i just post all the time at the bottom of every email is p.s have you seen the latest episodes of wednesday Like we could talk about something really serious in the body of the email and it's like, PS, what are we watching at the minute? Cause I've run out of stuff and stranger things doesn't start until November. where are we watching? So we do have similar tastes and things. And again, and Katie's similar age to me, but then also I think there's the extra thing of, it's useful to have similar tastes to your agent. Like you're going to apply to agents that say on the manuscript wishlist, maybe they represent your favorite authors or yeah, they talk about, Oh, I absolutely love this movie. I'd love it as a book. you're thinking that's my favorite movie. So I think it's like, again, it's kind of a both situation. Yeah.
00:10:28
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. Obviously being so closer in age to someone means that you just have much more crossover in terms of experience and like millennials, obviously we were hyper exposed to television and online streaming and things like that. put it nicely yeah Um, in terms of it, not just being a business relationship, um,
00:10:48
Speaker
The thing that I've heard the agents will say a lot when they come on right and wrong is ah if I ask them like, what is the kind of core of being an agent? And they're like, well, obviously that's the business side of things, but like you're sort of part therapist as well. You're sort of part career mentor for these people. Do you guys feel that from your agents?
00:11:09
Speaker
Yes, definitely. and joe particularly for me, she has just been, she's ah she's amazing.
Agents as Emotional and Career Support
00:11:16
Speaker
So I think you are right, what we were what you were saying before in that um she's a little bit older than me, but she's just been like so patient with me when I was just like,
00:11:28
Speaker
really green rose-eyed debut and now I'm this jaded writer. She's she's just been there through it all and, ah you know, I rang her and I cried on the phone to her and she's just listened and she sat with me and we've um she's given me good advice, you know, she's um Yeah, she's she's so, so amazing. And she's just like a really good listener. But she's also like a fixer. It's like a personality type, I think. And she just wants to make everybody happy. And she just wants to fix things if something's wrong. She's so sweet. And so, yeah, if something is if something's gone really, really badly wrong, then I'll w ring her and I'll feel safe enough with her to like have a good cry or just be like, Joe, this is shit.
00:12:13
Speaker
And she'll be like, it is shit. I agree. And she'll just sit with me. And she's... um like once um I had to I didn't have to sorry I was privileged enough to um to go to France to do like this book um uh a fair sorry it's word and um it's it was a really oddly set up fair in that you sat in front of a pile of your books for three days and tried to sell them to people and it was really odd because i can you know speak a bit of French but not enough French and uh I my book title was in English and it was just whole way set up and I just came away from that affair like this is weird I had a crap time and I rang Jo and Jo was like I can't believe they did this for you you know and she just like totally had my back and she's like I would never expect one of my authors to do this I am outraged on your behalf and i was like thanks Jo um you know she she's just really there for me so yeah definitely
00:13:10
Speaker
and maternal and gives good advice and will sit with you and cry with you yes okay so is that different to obviously Lucy also has your back Melissa but would you describe would you describe that as maternal or more kind of siblingy I would describe it fully enough in the same way. So like all of my closest friends, and I think a lot of writers are like this, are writers.
00:13:37
Speaker
Like we just get it in a different way to other people. You know, work at Write Mentor and we're always saying like the most important thing about a writing community is as supportive as say a parent or a sibling or a partner tries to be about your writing ups and downs. and It's writers that really get it.
00:13:55
Speaker
And it's like a different thing. We're all chasing a very specific dream and it's an incredibly difficult thing to achieve. And so, yeah, I feel like I have this really deep bond with my writing friends. um And it feels similar with an agent because they also get it. In fact, they get it even more than you most of the time. Like you can actually ask them questions and they can explain things. um So i feel more like it feels like a...
00:14:19
Speaker
business partner relationship, which makes it sound really cold. Yeah. It does feel like somebody that I've, you know, I've been working with Lucy. of She's definitely been my agent for six years, but I've been working with her for eight years ah because she was an assistant to my other agent at the agency. um And I feel like we're just very...
00:14:39
Speaker
what What is it? I think she used to have something on her bio when she was still on X. And it was something like, I'm just like the deepest fangirl. Like, that's my job. I just want to be a fangirl about all the things. And I know she loves like reading fan fiction and stuff. And that's why she became an agent is because she really, really wants to be that big cheerleader. And so she is a cheerleader, but I would say in a similar way to how my friends cheerlead me if I'm struggling with something.
00:15:03
Speaker
um Yeah. So she is really good and she will absolutely come in and be like, no, this isn't good enough. And you deserve better. It's like flipping dating, isn't it? And then they're like, you deserve better than this. Yeah, it's dating. Yeah.
00:15:16
Speaker
you're having a bad time so she definitely does do that uh but it yeah feels like from a business perspective but a very close business perspective it's a strange one um i do feel very supported and in a friendship way yeah yeah it's more than just a business relationship is that is the main thing that yes because there's more emotion involved it has to be Yeah. Yes. Yeah, exactly. And the the it's writing is a very vulnerable thing, like showing people you're writing. It's like such a piece of the writer. so like ah lot oftentimes the agent is the, not always, but oftentimes the agent is the first person to see the writing. For for a lot of authors, they like to show their agent first just to get a kind of sense check that but they'll be like,
00:16:02
Speaker
am I a fraud? Am I insane? Is this terrible? And the agents there to kind of be like, no, this is great. In terms of career advice, I know that when, from the agents I've spoken to, generally when you have that first meetup after they've read the manuscript and they've they've liked it and they kind of want to speak with you either in person or over you know over a call, um a lot of that first discussion will revolve around like them asking what do you want out of this? Like, do what kind of career do you see yourself having within publishing and writing? Right.
00:16:39
Speaker
Did you guys both have that when you first met, uh, Joe and Lucy? Well, Lucy, probably not because that was weird. Yeah. Mine was a bit different. Yeah.
00:16:51
Speaker
I don't remember having that conversation. So my first agent, uh, it was called Tessa David and she was excellent. She left agenting. She just ghost me, guys. She actually left agency. That's how bad my work was. She thought, I'm not doing this anymore. If this is what have to I know absolutely not. She was lovely and very, very supportive. So I went to meet her in London when she was like, oh, I'd really like to meet. Because I think this was more common before COVID as well. Like now feel like would be a phone call or a Zoom. But at the time she wrote me an email and was like, I'd love to meet you and talk about your book.
00:17:22
Speaker
Can you come in? So I didn't have a phone call. I went down, um which obviously was quite expensive actually. ah yeah So I went down. Yeah. And they had like a big office and stuff. So we could have like a little room in the office. and So went down and spoke to her and she loved the book and talked about it. And then was really confused what was happening because I did not understand what like this, what was supposed to happen again, because it's really opaque. So I just thought she was being nice about my book. And I was like, okay, bye. And then she emailed me 10 minutes later. was like, so do you want, do you want to, you want sign with me? I was like, okay. I didn't know what to do. I remember I was with my dad. My dad came down to London with me and he was like, you should wait. Like you should, you know, like really think about this, maybe sleep on it. I think I emailed her back in like five nanoseconds. And I was like, yeah, yeah, yeah, please, please, please.
00:18:12
Speaker
So I don't think we actually did necessarily have a big chat. Maybe we did after I signed about where I wanted to go. But also I was quite green. Cannot reiterate this enough. So if you'd asked me, where do you see your career going? i'm like, well, obviously in two weeks when we've sold in a seven way preempt,
00:18:27
Speaker
I would like to go on and sell the, not hold onto the film rights until they go to Steven Spielberg would be great. um And with my first million, I'll invest it probably in a publishing company. Like that's what I would have said because that's what I would have thought. Right.
00:18:42
Speaker
And we ended up not selling a book together. Actually. um I was on sub a few times over the two years i was with Tess and we didn't, so we didn't sell anything. So, you know, obviously that felt a bit like, oh, this isn't what I expected at
Career Alignment and Long-term Planning
00:18:53
Speaker
all. So I don't think we did have that conversation or rather if we did, i probably was either saying all that stuff or if she just said, yeah, I really want to, you know, it'd be great to get, say, this is sort of thing they should say, like a publisher that could grow you as an author. And I probably just nodded a lot, you know, I don't think I would have been very good at that conversation. i don't know about you, Naomi. Yeah.
00:19:14
Speaker
ah I can't remember having it either, if I'm honest. Oh, okay. And similarly, when I just signed with John like two weeks ago when we had our call together, that i didn't really come up either. Because I think interesting it's like, i I think a lot of the time we don't we don't have control over it anyway. So it's like, what do you want? It's like, well, everyone wants to be a New York Times bestseller. Everyone wants to have a franchise that's so entrenched in British history that it's bigger than Harry Potter. You know, everyone wants that. but it's like what actually is achievable. And I think the reason maybe um i wasn't asked recently is because, you know, we'll both try. yeah yeah and if it happens, it happens. And if it doesn't, then, you know, we gave it our best shot, both of us. So I think it's that sort of level of trust. I don't think, I think it would probably be a red flag to an agent if an author, a prospective author was like,
00:20:10
Speaker
I'm going to be in New york Times bestseller. You're going to make it happen for me. You know, i'm going to have this franchise. Steven Spielberg will have the rights. And if he doesn't want it, then we'll talk to Chris Nolan. You know, like I just... think i think We have a backup. Plan B. I think it's probably a red flag for an agent to pick an author up like that because they can have all these wild expectations and that agent might... Yeah, like that's true. They have no control over delivering that or not. So... Sure.
00:20:36
Speaker
and don't I mean, I'm not sure the conversations are going, um, right. So we've got Steven on, on speed dial and, and if we can't get them, you know, Denny Villeneuve is, is available, I guess, as if we have to, but I think it's more like that they want to, they basically, from what I gather, agents basically want to know, like,
00:21:00
Speaker
you don't just want to write one book and be done with it or you don't just want to, this is like you've you've written a ah series and this this is the only series you want to write at or like that you um you're like, oh, this is YA, but actually I also have an adult that I want to publish and a picture book.
00:21:17
Speaker
Yeah. I think it's more like, And clarifying, you know, what you want and what you what your career is going to look like in terms of like, where you want to put yourself in the market and yeah how much you want to focus in on one thing or not.
00:21:30
Speaker
yeah Yeah, you're taking up a slot on that list, which on the one hand, you might think. Well, you know, they only get paid if you get paid. And why does it matter? Why don't agents just have, you know, a thousand clients and just spam send out all the manuscripts? because that would be a terrible idea. They wouldn't have any time to edit anything. They wouldn't be curating stuff. So editors wouldn't trust them. So you are taking up a spot on their team by signing up. So they are obviously hopeful that you want to grow yourself as an author. Not to say that the only people or agents would take...
00:21:58
Speaker
And that ah in fact, it would probably be good to have a spread of people are people who want to publish six books a year ah or nothing. You know, of course, agents have people on their list that have nine to five jobs and kids and caring responsibilities and chronic illnesses and stuff that would stop them from doing that, which obviously you'd have to talk to an agent about any other the responsibilities you had before signing with them to check that that was obviously all on the table.
00:22:20
Speaker
Yeah, they do often ask, um and this that sometimes they ask in career letter or they'll ask on the call is like, what if you have other work commitments or like time commitments? Because they also, yeah, like you're saying, they kind of want to gauge how available you are to not only writing, but also yeah if you do sign a a book deal, you know, how quickly you can get those edits done, how, you know, what the turnaround time is. If you you have like...
00:22:44
Speaker
a full-time career and you're a parent, obviously you have far less free time than someone who isn't a parent or has like a part-time job. Yeah, exactly. So like, I think when I signed with Lucy, because Lucy was in, so if people don't know, she was in the same agency as my previous um agent.
00:23:00
Speaker
And I basically had a conversation with that agent. She was on her way thinking of leaving agenting. I didn't necessarily know this at this point, but I decided we'd sent out something that was quite middle grade-y. And I realized I wanted to do my YA and she was in towards middle grade. So she actually suggested, why don't you speak to my colleague, Lucy?
00:23:17
Speaker
And she seems, well, obviously what actually happened was I sent an email saying, cards on the table. I think we should send out my YA and I'm being really brave and I'm not scared or to send this email. And yeah, I'm going to put my foot down. And she replied with, okay, maybe we should put part ways. And I panicked. And she said, but I think there's another colleague that'd be much better suited to your stuff. And she pointed out, Lucy, you'd literally just opened a list like two days before or something.
00:23:42
Speaker
So it's a bit of a different conversation, and honestly, at that point, because it been years of being on submission and I hadn't sold anything. i think she was like, so what you want to do here? And I kind of tentatively said I wanted to move towards YA, but also said, I want to sell a book.
00:23:56
Speaker
Yeah. The end. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That would be great. I would love to do that. and So I think I was a bit battered by the time I spoke to Lizzie, which she also understood because she'd been working like alongside us the whole time, so she'd seen. So it was a bit easier, that conversation, because she had all the information about all my
Flexibility in Writing Directions
00:24:13
Speaker
projects. and But she did ask to read everything and then said, yeah, the YA, the Undying Tower, at the time, the Eternals, let's try this one. It really speaks to me, which I was glad because it was the one at the time that I had that really spoke to me as well, so it felt like a good fit.
00:24:26
Speaker
Okay. So when it comes to that kind of making decisions or just maybe not even like changing anything, but discussing discussing changes or like of direction for you as an author, like how often do you guys have a conversation with your agents where you're like, either either you bring it up or your agent brings up and you're like, I think I want to try something new or like, I think the thing we're doing is not working or they're like, maybe we should try a different approach to this. Is that something that happens?
00:24:55
Speaker
like maybe if something dies on sub or or you know if a publisher gives some feedback how often does that happen and like or has it happened to you guys yes that's happened to me twice once for y a once for adult um for the YA it was because ah chicken house asked me to pivot and write something different so I wrote something different and then they rejected it anyway and then Joe you know me and Joe had a long chat and we were like why we want to go with this what do we want to do and but for adult it was because um the first book that I went out and sub with her at a six month mark of submission hadn't had any offers but it had had some feedback and so we I sat with Kessia and we were like
00:25:42
Speaker
what do we want to do do we want to edit into this based on the feedback we received and then go out to another smaller list or do we want to drop it and write something else so edited edited it and went out to a smaller list and then I ended up writing something else anyway and so I think it's it kind of that kind of conversation for me has always kind of come at like a strategic time where we need to sort of look at what we're doing and reassess if that makes sense well it sounds like both times was based on something that ah ah had been led by a publisher who kind of triggered by something a publisher had said yes probably yeah um
00:26:21
Speaker
I think that's, that's fair to say. I mean, they do kind of drive the the whole machine, don't they? yeah Okay. So you've never had joe or Cassia. Well, you, you, you and Cassia were only working together for like a year or something, was it?
00:26:37
Speaker
uh yeah maybe a bit longer yeah yeah but like you've you've not had a situation where your agent has come to you and said i think we should chat about the direction of things it's always been instigated kind of by a publisher yeah I think that's fair and yeah I think it's for for me anyway it was probably because the books that I was writing both my agents really liked you know um Whereas, yeah, it was the fact that they weren't getting picked up is what drove the conversation. So if if an agent if I'd written a book and one of the agents didn't like it, and I think that probably would have been a different conversation.
00:27:17
Speaker
yeah. You probably get a couple, I would say imagine. If you write one book, then the your agent's like, oh I'm not really sure about this. They'll probably encourage you to write something new. And if you if it happens again, then they'll be like, I'm not sure about the direction of your new writing stuff.
00:27:34
Speaker
Oh, okay. Yeah. So that actually did happen with Joe because I sent her an adult book and she basically said, I don't think this is for me. sent her another adult book and she said, i don't think this is for me. And I think you need to find another agent for your adult stuff. yeah So that's where I went and and found. Which was clear though.
00:27:54
Speaker
Yes. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, which for anyone listening explains why Naomi has multiple agents. Yes. Which is just too famous. And Cassia is not an agent anymore, which is why it was Joe and Cassia.
00:28:08
Speaker
And then now it's Joe and very recently ah John Baker. Yes. Woohoo. we Okay, cool. And then that same question about having like checkups or like things like that.
00:28:22
Speaker
Have you ever had that me with Melissa, with Lucy, where either you or Lucy have been like, we need to chat about the kind of like direction we're heading, whether that's from, you know, triggered by an outside source or just a catch up that you guys wanted to have.
00:28:36
Speaker
But when Naomi was talking, i was actually going through this in my head and I realized with possibly the exception of Undying Tower, which to recap, sold to a very tiny digital first press that Lucy used to intern for. Then that folded. Then I set up a meeting with Fox Inks Books, UCLan to resell it. And Lucy facilitated that and sold it there. So that's a bit of a weird one. But everything else, Lucy has sold everything else I've written.
00:29:02
Speaker
which is wild actually. Now i'm thinking about it. Tess didn't. And ah there is one book that Lucy has never sent out that we sent out with Tess, which was Leaning More Middle Grade. And I've rewritten it as an adult, which sounds really weird, but it's like set in the same world. It's like a it's like a time portal type one. So ah me and Lucy are working on that now.
00:29:24
Speaker
ah So actually, we haven't really had to have that conversation. Also, not because Naomi was talking about if your book's out on submission for a certain amount of time, you know, different agents have different ways of doing it. So some agents will send out to like 20 publishers all at once and other ones will do maybe five at a time and see if they get feedback and see if you want to act on that feedback as you go.
00:29:43
Speaker
um we ah They haven't been fast sales necessarily. um So it's not that's not the reason we didn't talk about that. But they did all... Lucy tends to send out to a slightly larger list that they have all sold
Navigating Career Shifts
00:29:55
Speaker
eventually. like I think the longest I've been submission was like...
00:29:59
Speaker
six to eight months, somewhere around that. And then the shortest has been like two months, which don't get me wrong, is still really good and quite quick compared to some people. and But it also isn't like, I didn't have like an overnight preempt or anything. I wish. yeah um And I know that Lucy, when she sends Stefan, out she has said to me she was hopeful so that you know we sent out um we've sent our books before where she was hopeful we would have like a preempt and we just didn't and it obviously shows that she just really loves the work which is great and she is the biggest cheerleader which is brilliant but in terms of you know we were talking earlier about like uh maybe feeling like maternal or whatever it may be obviously you also want your agent to be realistic with you like he was talking about you don't want them to be like your mom where it's like well i think everyone should buy It's amazing. and They obviously want them to be a bit like that and be very excited. And when they're pitching, it makes a difference, of course, if they're very excited about the book and think it has a lot of commercial potential.
00:30:50
Speaker
So no, we haven't actually had to have that conversation, which is bizarre. However, recently we did have a Zoom call about various things. And I did actually say, which was very brave of me. think I deserve a sticker. I did this adult one going out,
00:31:10
Speaker
um well, hopefully we'll go out at some point in the future. we need to do loads of editing first, so it won't be anytime soon. and I did say, you know, I'd really like to have a book deal that ah pays me a larger living wage, to put it out bluntly. And um I said, you know, I'm not trying to be Naomi Campbell and say, i don't get out of bed for less than a seven-foot-foot.
00:31:32
Speaker
That would be nice, wouldn't it? And actually she was quite good about saying, yeah, I understand where you're coming from. You know, if you ever have, say, two books in a year. so you know, you hear about like obviously crime novelists or romance novelists sometimes sometimes have like two, three books in a year. That's worth it if you're getting a good amount of money for it. But it's quite a lot of work otherwise. and So if I was ever having more than, say, one book a year, i would want to make sure I was properly financially compensated for that because it would start to get difficult to do my day job. Well, caveat, romance is seasonal.
00:31:59
Speaker
So it's usually a summer and a Christmas book. Yes, true. So you get all of spring off, but not really because you're writing, right? yeah You're writing. usually get Christmas off because that's when you're not writing. Yeah, that's true. or you get tiny little break of Christmas. Yeah. and Yeah. So I was just I did have a conversation with a guest then about like what I'm because it really my financial priorities because I really want to make this my full time job. That would be the dream.
00:32:22
Speaker
I'd love to do that um and not have to. mean, I enjoy doing my freelance work, but at the minute I definitely do more of it because I need to.
00:32:33
Speaker
Whereas it would be nice to pick up stuff and when it really, you know, I really wanted to pick it up and be able to sort of have breaks from that and stuff. And I can't do that at the minute as much as joy and ah as I get from it.
00:32:44
Speaker
I can't choose not to do it for a bit. Like even when I'm on holiday, I'm never really on holiday, you know, because that's freelance life. So yeah, we have had we have had a conversation about that, but she completely backed me and said, yeah, that's what I would aim for for you.
00:32:56
Speaker
So wasn't a problem. Because obviously as an agent, the bigger the book deal that you get, the bigger her paycheck from that as well. Yeah, that 15%.
00:33:11
Speaker
Exactly. Yeah. shit I mean, it scales, but I mean, I don't know if that means, does that discussion go further for you to be like, okay, so like, here's a bunch of ideas I have, which ones do we think are going to be the most market viable, like the most commercial or, or is it literally you just, I'm going to keep doing what I'm doing and we're just going to see if we can go for bigger deals now.
00:33:32
Speaker
I've definitely done that. I've definitely sent... So i Because don't know if you know, I like plotting my books. So I will usually do a very in-depth... Because to me, it's very fun and it doesn't feel like... I mean, obviously, it is work. It does take me hours and hours of time. and But I will usually...
00:33:51
Speaker
maybe write a first chapter, definitely do my entire chapter by chapter plot using my Save the Cat, etc. It will usually be somewhere between five and maybe 15,000 words. And I will send that and say, do you think this will work? And that actually happened with this rewriting of this adult, where it's in the same world as this middle grade. And Lucy actually said, yes, I think you should bring in more of this plot point that seems to trail off in the second half.
00:34:16
Speaker
And I was like, great. And then I wrote the first draft and sent it to her and she said, okay, so here's another list of things that you need to improve. However, you did improve that one thing that I told you from the thing. So I do, I do ask her, I do ask her before going full on into a manuscript. Do you do that Naomi?
00:34:33
Speaker
Uh, no. Interesting. write a lot of my books in quite a bit of a fever dream. It's not unusual for me to write a first draft within a month.
00:34:44
Speaker
And so if I get really really grabbed by an idea i'll just chase it and i'll write it um i have written something recently it's where i'm actually not going to send it to an agent because i think it's just for me um but normally if i get an idea so recently um with joe particularly um if i get an idea i will email her and say what do you think about this and she might say like oh i like that i don't like this or whatever And it depends, like, if I like it enough, I'll write it anyway. Or if actually I think, yeah, okay, you're right, I'll go away and rethink. and So I don't i don't know. and but what I'm noticing about this conversation, though, is that you and me both write books consistently.
00:35:38
Speaker
And right i think the reason we've never really had to have conversations with our agents about like where are we going what we're doing is because we write so consistently we probably always have something to offer to them right right whereas i so interestingly i've i've not really thought about this before right but um interestingly i because i signed with john recently um he he said to me in our call so he actually met with kessia like for a lunch because she's now an editor at mcmillan And, um, Kessia was like, oh, I used to have Naomi. And he was like, oh, Naomi's just queried me, you know, something like i one of those lines. And when I spoke with John in our call, he said, Kessia tells me that you consistently write books. And I was like, yeah, I suppose I do. Like I always have something on the go. And I thought that's actually probably quite attractive to an agent. I never really considered it that I always have something on the back burner to offer them. and
00:36:32
Speaker
because so that happened with my adult books, right? So my book one died on sub and like, A month later, i was like, here's book two, let's do this. You know, she didn't have to wait very long for me to have something else ready for her to go. we we pretty much went out on sub sort of like four or five months after the first one died. So I think, um i so i don't know, I think that's maybe part of it. Like just, if if you're always writing something, um yeah, approach ideas, approach edit approach agents with your ideas. But if you're writing something and you have something that you're really enjoying writing, and you're probably always going to have something to give them anyway. So yeah.
00:37:11
Speaker
It's true. And the more ammunition you can give them, the more, you know, they claim because if you're, you know, if an author writes a novel and they're really, really attached to novel, and then it it it, it goes on submission and then kind of doesn't find any, doesn't find a home. And then they'll speak to their agent and they're like, no, I want to, I want to, you know, edit this and I want to go out on it again. The, the, the agent is, is a bit kind of, the hands are a little bit tied because it's like, they can't,
00:37:39
Speaker
immediately resub that to the same editors. So they're going to have to find more editors right of which there are like a finite amount within you know the genre, within the space that that book would would need. And they're probably now editors that don't necessarily have as strong a relationship with that agent um because you they would put their their best foot forward with the first set of submissions. So by you having something different, you can also capitalize on, you know, that a lot of the times, and you guys um I think you guys have mentioned this, but a lot of times an editor will get back and be like, oh, I really like this, but we can't.
00:38:18
Speaker
we can't take this on right now because we have something else in the schedule or like, you know, yeah there's a million reasons yeah why they can't sign a book, but they're like, you know, you almost that that they love the writing, they love the style and they'd be excited to see something new from you. If in like a few months time after you get that feedback, you can send them a totally new and unique story.
00:38:37
Speaker
Then that's, you know, you're capitalizing on that where they're like, oh yeah, I remember I really liked that thing, but we couldn't take it because of various reasons. But like, here's a new thing. And this actually, this maybe could fit into the schedule.
00:38:48
Speaker
Exactly. yeah Yeah. And it sounds bonkers that, because Naomi's right, we're saying like, oh, a pro tip for authors, it's great if you write books. Yeah. it's high Because obviously you would assume everyone's writing books, but I think both and Naomi, we draft quite quickly to get something down so that it's there and you can work on it. I think we're i think that's fair enough to say that we're both quite quick drafters. And and also, you know, it's something we're able to prioritize for various reasons. So that's ah that's obviously a good thing.
00:39:18
Speaker
um But I think that like when an agent takes someone on, it's what I was saying earlier about if they've got say 50 clients, they don't necessarily want them all writing six books a year and sending them because that would just be insane and would just be an insane workload. But um I do think it's a useful thing if you're able to move on to the next project, which is like the hardest thing I think to learn. I definitely didn't do that with my first project that went on submission. Yeah.
00:39:43
Speaker
You know, and everything takes so long. So it's always good to have another project up your sleeve. If you've got 10 manuscripts in a drawer and you're still trying to get an agent and that 11th one grabs you that agent, don't think all those 10 were useless. Like they could come in. Like that's so good. An agent will love that. Not necessarily something you need to put in your query letter. that You've got 10 manuscripts in drawer. But if they love that 11th one and you've got 10 others that are very similar or in different genres, but similar like vibe, then that's a good thing.
00:40:11
Speaker
So yeah, it's a strange one because obviously everyone writes at different speeds. And obviously if you sell one book for seven figures, then they're probably not as worried if you don't produce one the next year. Maybe you could take a year off, I'm sure. But yeah it's always good to have lots of things.
00:40:25
Speaker
Yeah, which but which is not to say there are...
Impact of Genre on Writing Frequency
00:40:29
Speaker
In some ways, it's kind of genre specific. Like we mentioned, a lot of romance authors will do a seasonal book. So they'll have usually a summer book and a and a Christmas book. yeah um crime Some of those crime writers are putting out three, four books a year, yeah just nonstop. um Equally, on the on the other end of the spectrum,
00:40:48
Speaker
you get literary rarery fiction authors who often will have three or maybe four years between each book coming out. So it can be genre specific and absolutely can work, you know, any which way you you can be someone who has a very quick output. You can also be someone who has a, like a slow and methodical output. There's lots of different avenues that you can take. yeah Um, but yeah,
00:41:13
Speaker
Yeah, like like you say, I think as a prospect for an agent, especially an agent who works with um what I would say is more commercial genres, if you're able to like give them more and more things that they can take out on submission, that's just that's just great for them. That's just a great opportunity for them.
00:41:30
Speaker
Versus if you're like stuck on something, if you've written something and then you're stuck, you you just really want to push this one through, maybe that is the right decision. You know, it could be. um like ah What was the the Harry Potter, like, you know, famously very widely rejected before it was eventually picked up.
00:41:48
Speaker
um if if If that initial conversation happens, like we were talking about earlier, and they're asking you about how much you want to write, what you what you're going to focus on, you might it might not be as appealing to an agent if you're like, this is the one and like I just know this is going to be the thing and I don't really want to write anything else if this doesn't work.
00:42:07
Speaker
Yeah, because they'll have heard that hundred times and they've got that they've got the figures. As when you're going in as a baby and you all you read about in the newspapers is six and seven figure preempts for fantasies and you've written fantasy you're like, that's going to be me. Whereas the agent has, you know, 50 clients, maybe out of those 50 clients, and they have a 70% hit rate with the manuscripts that they sell, which is pretty good. That's a good hit rate. That means there are hundreds of manuscripts not being sold.
00:42:36
Speaker
from those clients. So yeah, if I think if you come in and you're like, I'm going to really drive this hard, it may work out, but it would be a worry. i would assume. I mean, I would think that's worrying.
00:42:48
Speaker
Yeah. and well And the other thing is that agents are, when you sign with an agent, the agent is investing in in you as an author and your career as an author. Right. it like it's it's And there are situations where, and this is why they ask, they will take someone on who only, some people just want to, they have one book that they want to write. Right. You know, they're like, this is the thing that i want to write. And I think probably more common in like nonfiction and stuff. Yeah. was And that's fine for an agent, but they know it's going to be a one and done thing. yeah I think ideally for an agent, they want to work with you across a long career. They want to know, you know, how many books you're planning on putting out and like how often you're going to put them out.
00:43:27
Speaker
Yeah. And I think that's often why they ask you in the call, like, what other ideas do you have?
Sustaining Agent Interest and Career Longevity
00:43:34
Speaker
Because yes they don't just want this book. Like they obviously like this book well enough to take on, but they want to know that you've got something else in your pocket probably.
00:43:42
Speaker
yeah And it's probably even better if you say, oh, this has been finished and I've been querying this, but I've already started working on something new. That's probably a green light for for an agent to be like, okay, great.
00:43:53
Speaker
They, you know, they can just continue working through and through. But a lot of people won't. And I don't know if, I think Melissa, you were saying that your first one, you were like, you weren't, you didn't start anything else. You were literally just like, oh, this is the one. Now I'll wait to become megastar. I just wait for the money to roll in. I mean, even when I got given edits, was like, oh.
00:44:13
Speaker
That's so funny. me. What what is this? Edits. There's literally a whole running joke about this in Wednesday on Netflix where she's written a novel the publisher goes, love this novel. here's your edit notes and she is like i would rather poke pins in my eyes than have somebody ruin my genius actually i would enjoy putting pins in my eyes so and it's like that's how you are i think at first sometimes yeah you kind of have to crack through that shell and but yeah i didn't work on anything else because i just assumed that was going to sell and it did not so i would have been further ahead if i'd started working on something else earlier
00:44:49
Speaker
Just always be working on something. Yeah. And a lot of the, a lot of really successful authors who are like open about their process and talking about stuff. They're like Brandon Sanderson famously is working on like three or four things at any one time. Yeah.
00:45:03
Speaker
I spoke with, um, Olivia Blake the other day on right and wrong podcast. She's always working on like two, three, four things at any one time. So like you don't even have to think about starting something new if you're juggling multiple projects at once because it's like, oh, I finished that one. I guess I'm doing the other one now. And then you'll probably have an idea why you're doing that one to be like, oh, I'll start something new as well.
00:45:27
Speaker
Yeah. Just have a couple of things on the go. Yeah. Not that that works for everyone. No. It keeps your head off um all of the business stuff that literally, you know, talk about relationships with agents. The agents are supposed to be handling all the business side that's really stressful, like turning out on submission and waiting for responses. And you are really the best. The only thing you can do is write the best book you can. So you're much better focusing on another book. Yeah.
00:45:49
Speaker
That's all that's really in your control. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. um And it's always good to have like a little back catalog of your own because you never know when maybe your agent or maybe even like a ah publisher might be like, oh, we're interested in that. Have you got anything else that, you know, it' has never been published that you've got and you can just pull out a bunch of different manuscripts. Always good to have. um well I have another question um about this.
00:46:16
Speaker
In terms of you guys have both been with with your agents for some years now. How does that, does that relationship change over time? Like, do you speak to them less the kind of more you just have things going on within publishing or is it kind of, does it kind of stay the same?
00:46:33
Speaker
um yeah you I find it's what do they say like a quality over quantity situation i think early on I want to talk to Lucy every single day and ask has anyone bought my book yet and bless her she would reply and I probably drove her insane in the nicest possible way but she was really good and supportive and she would also be gentle about boundaries and be like why don't we just check in once a week or, you know, whatever it may be. And I think as time goes on and you're working with editors and, you know, I always copy her in if it we're talking on email about something, but it's sometimes good for you just to go direct to the editor and say, what do you think about this note or, you
00:47:11
Speaker
you know, wants to chat about like what you want to put in the proof box or whatever. You don't always have to go through your agent. and But I would say that the conversations we now have have a better quality. So now when we meet up for a coffee or whatever, um if I happen to be hanging around that there, London, and we'll talk about, you know, um where we're looking at the career going and what other projects I have and what we've heard about in the industry and what might be popular to sell, et cetera. Whereas before, I think I would just sit there and be like,
00:47:41
Speaker
tell me that my book has sold at auction please and i don't think we were having the top quality conversations i've talked to her a lot um so yeah i definitely talked to her less but it's better quality conversations when we do come together okay is that the same for you noemi yeah i'd say so um i used to write joe some really weird emails and she rang me one day and I was like I should probably stop sending you emails like that shouldn't I she was like well
00:48:12
Speaker
she's been so patient with me she's the best um yeah so i agree I think the more our relationship has gone on the more through the publishing wheelhouse I've been i I get it and I you know and when we talk to each other now it's like it's it's probably more strategic it's like okay how do we play this game now that we're both on on the same level and we both understand it as well as each other.
00:48:34
Speaker
um so yeah, I think it's definitely a quality thing. Okay. And a lot of that is obviously there's a bit of it just like, obviously you get to know your agent over time much better yeah as a person on a personal level. um But ah yeah, it sounds like a lot of that is just with with the two of you and this this will be the same for any author because it's a big industry to to learn and to know about when you come into it for the first time. It's just understanding the status quo of everything.
00:48:59
Speaker
It's like, yeah this is how stuff works. This is, you know, you're going to wait for this long. there's Panicking won't help anything. You know, you just, it kind you know, you'll get the email when you get the email, et cetera.
00:49:11
Speaker
yeah Yeah, exactly. So I just feel like you're less, it's nice. It's the nicer conversations to have, to be honest, when, you know, I almost, you almost don't want to talk about the craft and your next project and ah career trajectory before you get your first book deal. You're just, you are really hyper-focused on that first book deal.
00:49:27
Speaker
And so you're you're very panicked about it. And agents know this and it's completely normal to be panicked about it. You're not annoying anyone. at all um but yeah i do i do think you have probably more useful conversations later when you've calmed down a bit yeah yeah so yeah that makes sense maybe just because you know much more what you're talking about as in that you understand you don't need the because at the start i imagine the agent is just explaining the kind of minutiae of how things work and the way things are and yeah once you know
00:50:01
Speaker
you're kind of like, yeah, I got that. I got that. Now we can talk about the actual useful stuff. Yeah. Yeah. As opposed to just having them tell you about it. Um, that about wraps up my notes on everything.
00:50:14
Speaker
was there anything else you guys wanted to add about the relationship between an author and an agent that do you think we didn't cover? I just have like a little point actually. Um, I, so having had three agents, um,
00:50:28
Speaker
I've noticed that they all prefer to communicate differently. And I think that's really interesting. um so Joe is very much, um, send me an email, give me a call, like just don't, yeah, like that's her preferred method of being contacted. um whereas Kessia, I partly probably because she was in another country,
00:50:49
Speaker
um at time but she was quite happy to be whatsapped and that was like a really good way to get hold of her and have like a really quick back and do and john you guys were friends before you became probably friends yeah so it was like it wasn't really like a problem to drop her a whatsapp And John, well, I mean, we've only been with him like two weeks. different so and But when in our call, he was like, oh, what's up to me? When have you won? um But he was like, I might be a bit slower to reply on the weekend. And I was like, I will absolutely not be... contacting you on the weekend that's your weekend yeah and like don't worry about it um so i think they all have like different uh preferences of how to be contacted and stuff so that's been kind of interesting yeah well always remember agents are people with individual value values and and like uh drives
00:51:39
Speaker
yeah Yes, that's very true. And also, yeah, just that maybe on that, like just treat them like a person. They're not going to be, they're not your teacher. They're not going to be angry at you. If you, I know people that will literally be like, I just think I'm really bugging my age. And oh, when did you last hear from them? Eight months ago. Just think I'm going to really annoy them if I email now. I'm like, what are you doing? that First of all, there's a whole other conversation about you should be able to contact your agent. Your agent won't randomly reach out to you probably, but you should never be afraid of contacting your agent. They're not some yeah scary head teacher. They're someone to be partly your friend and also your business partner. They make money when you make money.
00:52:16
Speaker
um If there's communication issues, obviously that's an entire other, probably entire podcast episode. and But yeah, you're never bugging them. Like don't yeah think you're bugging them. But also... like ask They're not like, I've i've heard some people some people say, oh my agent works for me. and I'm kind of like, oh god yeah that's not really what it's about. It's a partnership. And I think if you're looking at your agent, like they're your employee, then There's something wrong there. Sorry. Yes, that's very true. So don't yeah don't bother them at the weekend, like Naomi said. Think if when you would want to be bothered. Think about how busy your life is. It's going to be exactly the same.
00:52:55
Speaker
Just, you know, i i scheduling emails. Actually, can I do a tip? scheduling emails. If you are panicking about something at 3am on Saturday morning, which has never, ever happened to me ever, you may want to write down those thoughts in an email to send to your agent. Just schedule it to go eight a m Monday or whatever. The thing is you can always go back in and delete the email if you regret it later. And also, so maybe even if it's like a Monday, schedule it Tuesday. um And also it just, you're not bothering somebody at a really difficult time and you've managed to get all of your thoughts out into the email
00:53:27
Speaker
And then you don't need to think about it. And it's like gone. And if your worries, et cetera. So scheduling emails is my big tip. Oh, I love to schedule an email because sometimes the weekend is when your brain's on. Sometimes the weekend's the only time you have to write work on your manuscript.
00:53:41
Speaker
So just schedule the email for Monday. Yeah. yeah That's really good advice. And then you might find, before it gets to that time, you've sort of come to your senses and been like, why did I send that email? going delete that. And you just go into drafts and delete the email. And it's fine. Yes.
00:53:55
Speaker
Yeah. Love it. Okay. Smart. Top tips from Melissa right there. Tip. Awesome. So um let's round it off as as we always do. um Have you guys been watching, reading hearing anything new this ah this week?
00:54:13
Speaker
I've been watching loads of stuff. I've been reading nothing. I'm a terrible author. and I, of course, read an early copy of Keep Your Friends Close by Cynthia Murphy and and gave a quote for that. And it's really good.
00:54:26
Speaker
She's done again. ceo of Plot Twist. That's what it says. You know these things they put on your Amazon page. It's so funny. Yeah, cool. Somebody said that about me. Awesome. But yeah, she is. That's very good. If you liked Morton Academy in Win Lose Kill Die, you'll love this. It's a prequel um set in the ninety s so that was good i did read it a few weeks ago for the quote but it has only just come out so i thought i'd mention um and yeah i've been watching loads of series based on like other things so i've been watching all wednesday and then weirdly been watching all of alien earth oh i just started alien earth it's so fun it's cool i only watched the first episode cool setup i'm i'm invested
00:55:06
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, yeah. It is a really interesting, it's an interesting setup in that the Alien films have moved very, very slowly, even though they're still crossover, from sort of like a pure horror, like body horror thing. And it's kind of moving towards like more of a thriller, like sci-fi thriller.
00:55:21
Speaker
and It's quite cool. Like even my mom hates um like jump scares and stuff. But actually, i think because she loves sci-fi and she loves thriller, she might be interested in it. So that's really good. And then also, yes, I've been watching the second half of Wednesday, which finally dropped, which is also it's actually really fun because it's a very it's very opposite to aliens. It's got like loads of silly bits and the cameos are cameoing.
00:55:41
Speaker
I don't know where they found all these people in Wednesday. Oh, my God. What was their budget for casting? and It's wild. So, yeah, they're both been really fun. Yeah, the cameos, I was like, what on earth is... Why are you here? Yeah, it's almost like a spoiler to say about the cameos because every time I'm like, you? Yeah, not going say it. Just that everyone else can be like, the hell? So everyone else's immersion can be broken by this insane cameo on screen. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, so that's been good. So they've both been good for different reasons.
00:56:10
Speaker
Yeah. Okay, cool. um I am reading A Little Hatred by Joe Abercrombie. Excellent as always. and ah oh And me, we watched um Final Draft, which is, I'm obsessed with the Korean reality TV shows. Physical 100, I've watched both seasons of that, amazing. Culinary Class Wars, which is just amazing.
00:56:34
Speaker
like the same thing but with chefs and like professional chefs one of the best shows ever and then this new show final draft is a it's a japanese sort of um version of this of the same kind of thing just athletes competing at the most insane sport things i just i just love it oh just been i was thinking authors competing no i'm afraid not that's a different type of show it's athletes i don't know i don't know if you could make authors competing uh an exciting olympic drama i mean they have tried it twice and it has been cancelled twice oh yeah they did it was a tv show yeah
00:57:13
Speaker
It was American, it? Unless was the first one. Yeah, yeah. So funny. How did it work? How you make that watchable? It was called America's Next Big Author or something. Yeah. And it was literally, you won a publishing contract. And have no idea. I'd have to ask my friend who was on the first one that I believe did not make it to television. Maybe it was just UK television.
00:57:33
Speaker
um alaska see what they did but like what are you watching as a viewer don't know don't know are they reading out think it's them pitching yeah surely like dragon's den maybe level yeah i think oh so it's just like maybe it's a pitching competition mean it looked like people were being knocked out every week but i have no idea actually how that would even work and that's maybe part of the problem so do you have to do you as a viewer have to do reading between each week I mean Bake Off works and I can't taste any of them cakes.
00:58:01
Speaker
That's true, but I feel like the proper way. You can imagine. Yeah, I can imagine. I get the tasting notes. Yeah, that's true. That's wild. I can't believe they tried to make that work as a show. It has not worked. Oh, I saw there's a new a new pitching competition for Romanticy popped up on my feed the other day.
00:58:22
Speaker
forget what it's called. i like love and love Love Your Dragon pit or something. Cute. Maybe not cute sometimes. Love Your Dragon. I don't know how cute it is if you know about Fourth Wing. Yeah, well, that's it. It's like, hmm, is that actually... Could be a picture book.
00:58:39
Speaker
Could be the next installment of Fourth Wing. Yeah. uh naomi how about you what have you been watching hold on melissa you forgot to mention you started expedition 33 that's all we'll say about it i've got to say yes so um everyone will be pleased to know i'm actually working through it fairly quickly because it's not as open when something's open world i will just go and pick mushrooms for four hours and oh yeah not that I'm really bad for it. Yeah. So it is actually, not linear. That's not fair, but that you have like, there are bumpers.
00:59:13
Speaker
Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Um, so yeah, I'm really enjoying it. Um, my computer's actually handling it, which I was worried about because the graphics look really good. And i was bit panicked that the graphics look so good that I wouldn't be able to run it, but no, it's all good. Um, yeah, I'm getting there. I have lots of theories, which I was telling you guys in the group chat that were stressing me will say nothing.
00:59:33
Speaker
I know. I'm obviously saying absolutely nothing. I really want to talk to you about it, but was like, anything I say, might just confirm or deny. And I just can't do that to you. I know. It's all for me. I don't know if other authors have this when playing video games with like a really strong storyline and like very strongly narrative, like Exhibition 33. But I just keep seeing things and I'm like, is this a mirror for the end? Is this a hint of what's really going on? And it's like literally some NPC I spoke to down a side street and I'm like, oh,
01:00:01
Speaker
this said You know, because I'm thinking of like from a plot perspective, all the stuff I would love to thread back into the beginning to like reflect the end of my story. right So it's been quite good for that, though, because I am the thing I'm editing is ah I know Dark Academia seems like a weird thing to say for this game, but it does feel Dark Academia vibes.
01:00:18
Speaker
like i don't know aesthetically i can see aesthetically yeah but yeah yeah like um it's beautiful like clothes and beautiful people there's loads of people to fancy i was very excited when i started in my digital world i was like what what smorgasbord for melissa to play through this game so i was very excited and yeah so it's good i'm enjoying it but no spoilers which i can't believe i've not had any actually not I'm surprised. People love it so much. They're just not talking about it. Yeah. Maybe that's why.
01:00:46
Speaker
No, don't go on TikTok. TikTok doesn't care. Don't let TikTok know. Oh no. i've been talking to my phone. It'll know now. It'll start showing me. It will. It will. I'm sure. edits of all the people I fancy in my game. The algorithm is listening.
01:01:01
Speaker
Yeah. Always listening. Naomi, back onto you. What have you been, what have you been? Well, we are still on our DVD train. So in six to 12 months, I'll be right there with you, alien earth I'm sure. yes okay so we're actually not watching anything at the minute because we're going on holiday. uh tomorrow so i'm just kind of we're just kind of binge watching travel man which is really funny and oh yeah travel man with richard iwadi yeah richard iwadi he's so good um in terms of reading so i read tender is the flesh which is this horror book and it
01:01:37
Speaker
It is dark. Like yeah it's only, it's only short. It's like kind literary horror. You've read it. Yeah. Yeah. And, um, it's, it's like, and don't know It's its own whole thing. I can see why it's gone viral. I can see why it's had so many people read it. It's yeah, it's brutal. I don't think I've ever read a horror book that's quite like that. I think it's really, really unique, but really brutal.
01:02:04
Speaker
um yeah so if you've read it then you know what i'm on about if you don't then yeah feels like everything's a spoiler okay yeah yeah i mean they do say some stuff on the back don't get me wrong but it's quite fun if you have like a kindle edition so you don't get to see the synopsis necessarily that's probably a good way to go into it a shock value Okay, so same as Expedition 33, can't say anything, everything everything is a spoiler. Yeah, it feels like it, yeah. Okay, great, that's fun though.
01:02:34
Speaker
yeah Yeah. I want to talk about it, I can't talk about it. Yeah, you want to talk about it because it has a lot of ah like human like questions about the self and stuff, which is really interesting. It's very reflective of society, it's interesting.
01:02:51
Speaker
Okay, amazing. And on that enigmatic note, we'll end the episode. it's serious um As always, if you guys have any questions or like wanted to um let us know about something we missed or didn't talk about, or if you have, um we're really keen to hear about any of like your experiences within publishing. If you want to get our take on it or um just kind of share, we'd love to hear it. We will talk about it anonymously on the podcast at some point.
01:03:16
Speaker
That would be great to hear from you. And you can reach us all on our like DMs on whatever social media platform yeah you want to have a look for us. um And I'm not sure if this is the end of the season. Might be. But if it is, we'll see you next season.
01:03:30
Speaker
If not, we'll see you next episode. to Who knows?
01:03:36
Speaker
Thanks for putting up with our nonsense for another episode. To stay tuned to everything we're up to, you can follow the podcast on all socials at The Chosen Tropes. Follow Melissa at Meliva, Naomi at Naomi G. Writes, and Jamie at Jamie X. Greenwood.
01:03:49
Speaker
Don't forget to check out Naomi and Melissa's books, as well as the Right and Wrong podcast. Thanks again, and we'll see you on the next trope.