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#94 - Yeliz Castillo | Career matchmaker & certified career Coach @pplwise
89 Plays2 months ago
Yeliz Castillo is a dedicated TA professional starting her journey in London with little English, she embraced the challenge and became fluent in her third language while developing a passion for recruitment. Yeliz thrives on connecting with people, making an impact on their lives, and building meaningful relationships. She values authenticity, collaboration, and stepping out of her comfort zone to pursue her goals. Liz is currently TA Lead & Sr. Talent Partner at pplwise.
Shownotes
00:00 - Intro & Context
05:00 - The Importance of Clear Communication
10:45 - Candidate Feedback Strategy
18:30 - Recruitment Market Dynamics
Guest Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/yeliz-akin/
Thomas Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/thomas-kohler-pplwise/
Thomas e-mail: [email protected]
pplwise: https://pplwise.com/
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Transcript
Merits and Risks of Giving Feedback
00:00:00
Speaker
Today's guest, Jelis Akhlin, senior talent partner, project lead and talent lead at People Wide. Also giving candidates feedback, do you think it's it's great for the experience and where do you think it's also a bit maybe and risky because yeah some really just don't take it good when you reject them and then also asking for feedback. And then of course, some really do it for an honest learning experience. And that was just one to sue you because maybe you used the wrong word in the feedback and then it was harassing and then you pay a fine.
00:00:35
Speaker
yeah Yeah, I mean, again, this is also something that I think, you know, we always say feedback. But again, I think this is also very individual basis, because as you said, there are some candidates, they really need the better the positive or the constructive feedback. And there are other ones that don't care or don't want it. I had this couple of times actually, where I called people after, you know, a final or and a second stage interview. and them And they were like, well, you could have just sent me an email. Why did you call me for this?
00:01:03
Speaker
You know, so I don't think this is like a one way fits all kind of process. And I think you do a really good job there. I know that when you have people in the um in in a process that you offer them that they can book a slot in with you to give them feedback and then you kind of leave them the option to get feedback if they want to, or if they don't, then they just leave it. And I think that's really great. Yeah.
00:01:25
Speaker
But also just when they're later on the stage, right? If they passed maybe coming to a case study or to a final or maybe at least one or two calls down the road because otherwise it's just invisible. Yeah, for sure. I think, you know, when and ah like to me, the best approach is really like after the first interview, I always say that to all my candidates, you will receive an email and it's a generic email that it didn't work out. It's nothing personal. It's just the pool of applicants that we have. And I think communication is very important. So they know that they will receive either an email and that is when it was negative or they will receive a phone call when it gets to the next stage to arrange the next stage. You know, I think it's very simple than as that. And I think everyone understands that you cannot send
00:02:05
Speaker
hundred million and you know like or moreing conversations
00:02:14
Speaker
We talked about candidate experience with have practical tips on how long your process should take, what are the main attributes to either win or lose candidates through a great experience and what to consider as an employer, what to anticipate and um where you really need to have your attention on.
00:02:35
Speaker
Then you can build trust and then you can spend less time communicating and more time just getting shit done. Then I went home and and thought about this sentence. We basically put it on the table.
Introduction to Jelis Akhlin
00:02:44
Speaker
Hiring takes time. People are trained. How to objectively judge certain situations. It's very, very, very, very hard to change things. That was the learning. Entrepreneurs with empathy. to the people's side Welcome, Liz. Really looking forward to this episode. I remember when we first um met I think last year, um I was really impressed about the way You are perceived from candidates and also from customers, stakeholders. And um I'm really glad that we can today do an episode on candidate experience. So first, maybe we start with a short introduction about yourself.
00:03:17
Speaker
Yeah, thank you so much for having me. I'm also so excited to be here. And yeah, I do remember as well when we first met, and it was super exciting because I think from a value perspective, we really clicked. And um yeah, and I think that sums a lot.
00:03:34
Speaker
up who I am as a person. I'm very value driven. m But on a ah professional background, I have studied HR. I've been working in that field for the last nine years and um have done quite a lot of things. and I've studied HR and psychology and worked in general HR. I've done learning and development and now I am in the world of recruitment for the last three years.
00:04:02
Speaker
Cool. And um what excites you most about um um candidates or providing a great experience? Because I think what I can see also compared maybe to, let's say, the average recruiter, that I can really feel the excitement when you interact with people. And I think that's something very unique. So where is the excitement coming from?
00:04:24
Speaker
Thank you, that's a good question. I think and the excitement is really about ah learning about different people and and you know learning about different cultures, different viewpoints, different backgrounds. I find that always very intriguing and because I think It doesn't matter in which position or in which level people are, everyone can bring some sort of a value and you can learn from anyone, right? Someone who just starts off a career or someone who's very, very senior. yeah So I think I have just, just natural curiosity about people. And that really excites me to, you know, when I interact with them to learn about them and figure out what they like, what they don't, what the background is, what the story is. And yeah, and just bring that into the recruitment.
00:05:12
Speaker
And I think that's really a great asset what you have there because it um then is really a great experience just also doing your job. And also I think for um the people you work with, it's also and a great experience because you can feel it. And I also saw it from a lot of um customer hours that we got a lot of great feedback um um regarding that piece. So um when we just maybe first talk about continued experience, what for you,
00:05:40
Speaker
are the basics of a successful candidate experience? I think what's the main point to have a positive candidate experience is to really respect the time and to make candidates feel valued and to have a really clear communication of every stage of the process. So from the beginning when you start talking to a candidate until up until the end of and the process or your interaction with them.
Respect and Communication in Hiring
00:06:09
Speaker
Because you never know, you know you you know you you might interview someone or you interact with someone and they might not be a right fit now, but they can be a fit later for another role that you have, or you know it opens some sort of a different door. So I think and the main points for me ah to have that great experience is really trying to build a relationship from the get-go.
00:06:31
Speaker
and And within the hiring process, it's really about, as I said, about the clear communication, timely feedback. And what is timely for you? Well, it depends on the, you know, the level of and the seniority, of course, you know, there are different stages, but I think generally it shouldn't be longer than three days. And um from the first um a touch point with the company, like they're applying for instance, yeah um or also for they're down in interview process in stage three. And then do you then also think it's three days is valuable or is viable? Or and do you think there it should be happening faster? And of course, ideally, yeah, but also realistically, what what is possible and what not and why, right? Because I think sometimes a recruiter has also 10, 15 different roles and then candidates along the process. And then sometimes you do not get feedback of, um
00:07:31
Speaker
hiring managers are of the interview panel on the decision. So how do you deal with all that complexity to to manage a certain service level agreement um to timely respond to candidates?
00:07:43
Speaker
yeah I think that is definitely something down to the recruiter and to the hiring manager that you have to have that agreement from the get-go and so everyone is aware how precious time is because I think what a lot of companies misunderstand or still don't get is there is not not in all sectors but in most sectors it's not an employer driven market anymore it is a candidate driven market which means that candidates are in power and they have usually, especially the good candidates, multiple processes at the same time.
Adapting to a Candidate-Driven Market
00:08:16
Speaker
So what you have to do as a company is really try to be competitively advanced and that means that you have to be as fast as possible. But at the same time, I think there is also like a thin line between rushing and making a candidate feel pressured in a way.
00:08:33
Speaker
and also bringing in the quality showing that you're interested and you're really trying to make it work with that candidate. you know So I think there's also a very thin line, but generally it is about communicating, making clear and you know alignments between the the hiring team and obviously the candidate and um us as a as a recruitment party and making sure that everyone is aligned on the process and how urgent it has to be in order to win the candidates for you.
00:09:02
Speaker
yeah so I like what you say that in order to even be able to provide a great experience, meaning clarity and also so speed, um is to be aligned upfront. and um What if you see along the process that stakeholders are not aligned? What what are you doing there and how do you bring it to the attention that it has an impact a negative impact for them that they're not aligned?
00:09:32
Speaker
Yeah. and You know, it's difficult to say that there is a one way of approach because again, we're dealing with humans. So and it can be very individual, but generally speaking, I think it is clear communication, written communication on a very fast basis. So if I realize there is no alignment, then let's say if I have two, three different stakeholders in a hiring process, and I see very early on in the stage that there is no alignment and you know, one is very slow with feedback, the other one is unsure about what to judge the candidate on or there's a misalignment between them, then what I would definitely do is do like a re-kickoff and bring all the stakeholders into a call and make sure that we go through the points, align m on what's
00:10:23
Speaker
you know, a question mark or up in the air and really try to eliminate all the blockers that we have. And obviously, throughout the process of any hiring that we do, and whether individually with clients is obviously we work very data driven. So um we try to, you know, ah document all the blockers that we kind of anticipate before we start a process, we discuss this with the clients, of course, beforehand, but then obviously sometimes during the process those blockers can and occur out of nowhere without us anticipating. So as soon as they're there, we just try to communicate them straight away and eliminate them or reduce them. You know, you can't always eliminate, but yeah. Definitely. And also a framework where you use um and what I also saw is is really great that you always just described the situation in terms of gathering some data or.
00:11:11
Speaker
writing down what happened in a plain language and also um setting out what are the implications or the consequences. um Usually, they have a negative impact and then also what are potential solutions and also being very specific about this, right? And this is, ah I would say, a general problem solving um communication framework. But in that case, it really um can unblock a situation fast. And I think, as you said, if everybody's aligned, then at least you as a recruiter took the ownership and the full responsibility and productivity to deliver a solution and then it's really up to the stakeholders or then even at some point maybe through escalation the managers of the stakeholders to get this sorted and what I heard from a recent dinner um of a director of talent acquisition if for instance hiring managers.
00:12:03
Speaker
do not really respond in a timely mannerder manner or provide enough slots or are not aligned in the recruiting process. Then they just close the role and say, it's not a recruiting is not your priority. And sometimes they're like, hello yes, it is. It's really urgent. No, but you don't behave in a way that it's prioritized. So I close this role. And if these three things are sorted,
00:12:29
Speaker
Then we open it up again, but then we need the
Crucial Moments in Candidate Experience
00:12:32
Speaker
service level agreement. This number of interviews, what you can commit to um this clarity in terms of um this code, because here you can see why it's not working and why we cannot really um add more resources to.
00:12:46
Speaker
actually hire or attract candidates and interview them when we cannot convert them. It's a bad experience for them, for us and also for the company. but So I think these are all the things where you need to be bold and also first and patient but also i very clear about what ah what What does a great hiring process look like? And then also making sure that you are at a stage and having a setup that you can deliver a great experience. In case you like my show, please subscribe. I would really appreciate it. But maybe what what are for you to the key touch points in a candidate experience? Yeah. So we touched this on already. Like I think there is definitely a difference with the
00:13:30
Speaker
you reach out to a candidate as a company or as a recruiter. you know if If a candidate gets approached, I think there's a bit of a different power game there. m Because if you're reaching out to a candidate, then you really need to you know sell yourself to the candidate from the get go. You need to make sure that and you know you really show the candidate that you're interested in them and that you kind of win them over for yourself m compared to when a candidate applies.
00:13:57
Speaker
it is obviously, again, different because they show an initial interest to your company. And I think just to kind of match the interest, it's very important that, for example, with the application process, it starts off with that, that we have not these old fashioned, you know, 10 pages long forms to fill in, but that they're really um easy to use, user friendly, quick, and, you know, ideally, and sorry, one click, ideally, just submit and then it's synced with LinkedIn, for instance, already, right?
00:14:27
Speaker
Exactly. I think it's really bad to have these forms where you know you you fill it in and then basically it's the same information that is already on your CV. I think that's very, very frustrating for candidates and I know this from my own experience. i useful went As soon as I realized that I had to put all the information in again, I would stop applying. like I would literally not apply for that company because to me, that says everything I need to know of you from the get-go. It might be a bias,
00:14:54
Speaker
But it's really off putting, especially if we think of candidates who m are maybe actively looking you know for a job and they ah applying to multiple at positions. It's very frustrating. And I think we just need to really.
00:15:06
Speaker
um appreciate the time from the get go of what it's put into the application process. So definitely that's one of the main touch points I think that it starts off. And then obviously, the next point is then the interview stage. And that's where all the magic happens. Like, um yeah, again, clear communication.
00:15:26
Speaker
um, a turnover of a feedback, you know, up to three days. So, um, it's not just three days. It's up to twenty also giving candidates feedback. Do you think it's, it's great for the experience? And where do you think it's also a bit maybe, um, risky because yeah some really just don't take it good when you reject them and then also asking for feedback. And then of course some really do it for an honest learning experience.
00:15:53
Speaker
And let us just want to sue you because maybe you used the wrong word in the feedback and then it was harassing and then you pay a fine. yeah Yeah, I mean, again, this is also something that I think, you know, we always say feedback. But again, I think this is also very individual basis, because as you said, there are some candidates, they really need the better the positive or the constructive feedback. And there are other ones that don't care or don't want it. I had this couple of times actually, where I called people after, you know, a final or and a second stage interview. and them And they were like, well, you could have just sent me an email. Why did you call me for this?
00:16:28
Speaker
You know, so I don't think this is like a one way fits all kind of process. And I think you do a really good job there. I know that when you have people in the um in in a process that you offer them that they can book a slot in with you to give them feedback and then you kind of leave them the option to get feedback if they want to, or if they don't, then they just leave it. And I think that's really great. Yeah.
00:16:51
Speaker
But also just when they're later on the stage, right? If they passed maybe coming to a case study or to a final or maybe at least one or two calls down the road because otherwise it's just infeasible. Yeah, for sure. I think, you know, when um ah like to me, the best approach is really like after the first interview, I always say that to all my candidates, you will receive an email and it's a generic email that it didn't work out. It's nothing personal. It's just the pool of applicants that we have. And I think the communication is very important. So they know that they will receive either an email and that is when it was negative or they will receive a phone call when it gets to the next stage to arrange the next stage. You know, I think it's very simple than as that. And I think everyone understands that you cannot send
00:17:30
Speaker
100 million, and you know, like, for killing conversations. Yeah, in the first stage. But then I think after the second stage, when it gets to a hiring manager manager call, you know, when there is like, an hour, one and a half hours of interviews, whatever, you know, for whatever reason, then I think it can get a bit more in detail because it is constructive, right? But I like the point that you say upfront that, hey, in case there is a rejection, you will get an generic email because then It's not like, ah, what an experience. Again, they don't care about me, right? It's about, hey, it was aligned, understood. I understand why. And they can still then ask, right? So that's really a great idea. Yeah. And that's literally what I have been implementing for like the last one and a half years. And I guess so many good feedbacks about that. They always say like, oh, thank you so much for letting me know. And I always say as well, are you going to get a boring, ah you know, general generic email and from the system because we cannot provide
00:18:27
Speaker
that feed like detailed feedback. And every everyone, honestly, 100% of um feedback rate is positive, because then people know where they stand. And they know it's not personal. And they know what's expected, you know, because that's how it works. But again, I think it's just about how to communicate this or or or communicating it to candidates from the get go. So they know what's expected.
00:18:51
Speaker
and then they don't see you as any other company that just sends a generic email. So yeah. And after, let's say, the interview stage, what other touch points do you see for a great candidate experience? Yeah, so as I said, like for the the first interview m is as we covered, and then after the second and the third interview, I think then it gets really about getting detailed feedback. So that means that would mean that I would chase like detailed feedback from the hiring manager or from the next and interviewer, whoever that is in the process, and really try to get that as soon as.
Leveraging Feedback for Improvement
00:19:31
Speaker
um I think here that that the speed is very important because also if you have a process where there are multiple candidates, it's very easy for hiring managers also to get confused with candidates.
00:19:41
Speaker
to maybe not remember vividly, or then they get maybe biased from other candidates in the meantime. So I think what I tried to do, and that might be a bit annoying for some hiring managers, but again, I think this provides a good candidate experience is really chase the feedback as soon as the interview is over. you know Just to give a little nudge and be like, okay, what is your impression? How was it? And the same thing goes for the candidate, by the way. um I think as much as we want the feedback from hiring managers it's also very very important to take in the candidate feedback because this is always for me a two-way process right it's not just ah companies interviewing candidates to see whether they're a fit it should also be candidates candidates and exploring whether the companies are fit for them.
00:20:29
Speaker
right And that's also so important for market research. um A lot of recruiters are just not quantifying the input that is received from the candidates slash the market. yeah And this can be so powerful for you as a recruiter that you suddenly get really hurt by every manager you work with because you cluster and you categorize what's going on out there, what has direct implications on the managers trying to staff positions.
00:20:59
Speaker
yeah And also maybe it's coping the right roles and and providing the right incentives, right? Exactly. And I think you can't get better market insights than from the market itself, and that is the candidate. you know And I think sometimes what you can also really gather from a candidate feedback is how the quality ah of the process really is. you know and And obviously, this has to be taken with a pinch of salt, and you can't just jump on every word that's been said. But if you have four or five candidates who, let's say, complain about a hiring manager being late to their interview, then you know that there is an issue. And this is not something that maybe a hiring manager will tell you necessarily. And this is also not something that you could really monitor or figure out otherwise, but from the feedback. So I think, again, that would be then another opportunity for you as a recruiter or as a company, generally, whoever is in the hiring process, to really
00:21:54
Speaker
and enhance your interview process slash your market, your branding in the market as an employer. And actually every modern ATS can set up automatic service after a certain point is reached um that you get certain feedback also gathered, right? With just a rating zero out of 10 or how how could you felt about certain things? qualityly but then also I mean, I think that that's definitely there, but then I sometimes wonder, okay, how much really do people write something in there also when they're in the beginning? of like you definitely
00:22:29
Speaker
You know, then you have to also question, okay, they really want the job and they don't want to write anything negative because even if they maybe had not the best experience, but they might really want the job. So then I think this is where, you know, no matter how much AI or IT or technology we use in this process, the human aspect really is what makes or breaks it. And I think this is one of the points where that comes really in. When you build that relationship from the get-go with a candidate, to really figure out, okay, how was it? What's your feedback? How did you feel about it? Also to, you know, not just from an interview perspective, but also from a um potential blocker. And that might occur from the candidate, right?
Personalizing the Candidate Experience
00:23:07
Speaker
Because, as I said, they usually have multiple processes from the get go. So if you know from the beginning, how the candidate feels about your process, you're in really advantage, you know, knowing and kind of leading the way throughout the process,
00:23:21
Speaker
to whether the candidate will choose your job at the end or another one you know so yeah i think technology is great but the human aspect is unbeatable in that in that point yeah cool in case you have any feedback or anything you want to share with me please send me an email on thomas at peoplewise.com or hit me up on linkedin and in case you really enjoyed the show please subscribe i would really appreciate it and i'm closing So that's also a piece where I think a candidate experience or the clarity and the speed really matters. So I think a good candidate experience, even if you don't have the best job for certain attributes available for the candidate, this can also really make or break the decision for or against an offer. yeah So what do you see get companies, um what do companies get right and wrong when closing candidates?
00:24:17
Speaker
Yeah, I think the there are two aspects. I think the personalization bit is really key here. you know When um companies make a candidate feel really that they want that person and that this person is not another number you know on their payroll or another resume in the application pool, and but it that you made them really feel they're wanted and they bring value and they can really add something to the company and make a difference. I think that is one of the biggest and encouragement for candidates to choose a company ah apart obviously from the monetary bit or the the development opportunities. But I think it's more on a human level that is really important. And then m the second point is
00:25:03
Speaker
personally to me, definitely a conversation about the salary from the get-go. I think this is something that can that companies do really wrong, you know and putting candidates through a process and then at the end discussing the salaries. and I think this is definitely something that is a 50-50 make or break that most candidates do drop out at the end.
00:25:30
Speaker
And then the other aspect I think is the pace of the process. So m you know if you are quick and you really show that you want the person and you put everything together to and make sure that the candidate gets the quickest offer or and and the quickest next interview stage because you really want them to win for yourself and you don't want them to go to anyone else and you kind of and touch point on that during the conversation with them. I think this really makes a difference. I hear that feedback a lot from candidates what they're where they're like, oh, you know, I have this other um and process going on, but they're so slow. And I really like that you put the effort in to really get me to the next stage or and that this has turned out so quick. So thank you so much for making it war work or adjusting to that timeline.
00:26:19
Speaker
I think, again, it's really showing that you really want the candidate and you don't just treat them as a number, but really as a person that they are as a valuable employee. Yeah, definitely. And I think also what is important, what sometimes maybe is getting a bit forgotten, that after a candidate started, 90, 180, or even a year, days or a year, why not checking in for 15 minutes coffee chat and asking, hey,
00:26:50
Speaker
What was promised and what I pitched there and the expectations, I said, where they're actually met or how far off have we been and why? um And asking some questions around that and also asking afterwards for, hey, what could have we improved? Because then I think that.
00:27:09
Speaker
You're a bit settled umm after 90 days in the company. You maybe didn't really get get get realistic feedback because it's not, as you said, I want a job, I'm a bit careful and therefore overly nice.
00:27:21
Speaker
This is usually then not the case anymore, right? And then you more get clarity in terms of information. And this is something what I think what I can just recommend for every recruiter out there, it's time consuming. It needs a bit of organization um to just set timers or schedule in that time. I have this candidate, okay, in 90 days I reach out and also done mentioning it, hey, after 90 days, would you be open to go through that questions,
Key Takeaways for Employers
00:27:45
Speaker
right? That's a really powerful experience.
00:27:48
Speaker
for sure. And that is then the the bit that goes into retention, right? Because it's not just important to win people for yourself, but keep them. And um yeah, I guess that's a discussion for another day. Yes. and um So what are the key takeaways for employers then um to to provide a great candidate experience? Yeah, I think just focus on communication, be transparent and some Yeah. Show your value as a human being. And I think the main thing for me is treat everyone the way you want it to be treated, you know, as whether you are a candidate, a hiring manager, it doesn't matter on which side you sit. I think we all are at one point candidates and we all can, you know, become hiring managers. So I think it's just about treating everyone and giving a process and providing a process that you also want for yourself or for your loved ones. Yeah.
00:28:44
Speaker
Great to see you. Thank you so much. It was a really wonderful conversation. Thanks, Liz. Thank you.