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#109 - Blaise Daldin | Neurodiversity
48 Plays11 days ago
Blaise is a Global Tech Recruiter and DEI Sourcing Specialist based in London. With eight years of experience in recruitment, Blaise has honed expertise in tech hiring and promoting Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion (DEI). Blaise has collaborated with exceptional talent and prominent global brands such as Amazon, The Economist, and Gorillas.
Driven by a passion for creating inclusive workplaces, Blaise has successfully enhanced hiring diversity, eliminated agency reliance, and spearheaded DEI workshops and internal initiatives to foster cultural transformation. Since being diagnosed with ADHD last year, Blaise has been dedicated to advocating for neurodivergent talent and cultivating environments where everyone has the opportunity to thrive.
Shownotes
00:00 - Intro & Context
05:30 - Defining Neurodiversity
15:45 - Inclusive Hiring Practices
25:20 - Leveraging Strengths in Neurodiversity
Guest Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/blaisedaldin/
Thomas Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/thomas-kohler-pplwise/
Thomas e-mail: thomas@pplwise.com
pplwise: https://pplwise.com/
Recommended
Transcript
Introduction & Significance of Neurodiversity
00:00:00
Speaker
Today's guest, Blaise de Daldin.
00:00:06
Speaker
So, Blaise and I, we talked about neurodiversity. Blaise is a recruiter um for more than eight years and um we went a lot into neurodiversity by itself, but also how to leverage it in recruitment and um what to consider in regards of neurodiversity.
00:00:25
Speaker
lay It's great to see you again in the new year. new year um it's It's cool that we um got to know each other through um hiring. and And then we said, hey, it would be really cool to do a podcast. And now we are here. And we want to talk about neurodiversity and recruitment and all the aspects of it. So glad to do that. But maybe we start with a short introduction about yourself.
Blaise's Experience in DEI & Neurodiversity
00:00:47
Speaker
Absolutely. um Thomas, lovely to meet you too. Thanks so much for the opportunity too to be on your own podcast. And um yeah, as you say, whilst we didn't, you know, make a hire there, it was definitely an opportunity to see how we can collaborate in the future. um Before I do kind of, I suppose, as introduce myself, I just wanted to recognize your 2024. You had a really strong year. I listened to your podcast on the 25th. So yeah, well done on the last year that you had. Thanks.
00:01:13
Speaker
So um my name's Blaze. I am a recruitment talent partner. um I've been recruitment for the past eight years. um My first kind of role was focusing on tech recruitment, resourcing. um I was partnered to a kind of offline community called Women in DevOps, which I suppose was my first flavor for um diversity, equity, and inclusion are what that meant for underrepresented talent. i'm From there, it was really a piece of um learning more about what recruitment looked like, the acronyms that were involved, because when it comes to tech recruitment, there are a lot of acronyms. So um so it was a new kind of vocabulary for me. It was a new way of working. um and a really kind of I was able to be passionate about something that was very um
00:01:57
Speaker
core to myself when it came to underrepresented talent. So um that being said, I have worked for the likes of Amazon, Blink, a SaaS B2B, The Economist, NTT Data Consultancy, and really being able to understand the nuances involved within recruitment, um and really how I could help shape what the recruitment practices look like with a focus on neurodiversity. So yeah, that's me.
00:02:22
Speaker
Cool, and um what what how would you define your diversity and um why does it matter?
Understanding Neurodiversity & Personal Insights
00:02:29
Speaker
Absolutely. So with neurodiversity, I would define it as a ah varied set of kind of cognitive abilities. So a lot of the kind of understandings around what neurodiversity is, is there's a stigma attached to it. People with neurodiversity, let's say that ADHD, dyspraxia, dyslexia, autism, narcolepsy, there are so many differences, neurological differences. um And there are other cognitive variations that come up with neurodiversity.
00:02:59
Speaker
With myself, I am ADHD. I was late diagnosed um back end of last year, um and it was a massive learning curve. A lot of the whys I did, what I did, um and really understanding and embracing um the differences that I had to bring to the table, what kind of was innately in me, what made me passionate about diversity, equity and inclusion, and really why I wanted to champion and be an advocate for this space.
00:03:22
Speaker
um So to answer your question, um typical ADHD thing, to go off on a tangent or waffle, is that neurological differences come from neurodiversity.
Why is Neurodiversity Important in Recruitment?
00:03:31
Speaker
And as mentioned before, um they are kind of variations within the human brain, um rather than deficits or disorders. um And then to answer your second question, you asked me about neurodiversity and why it matters in the workplace. Well, it matters for many reasons. Neurodivergence is is a human being, you know where it's like you have someone who's tall and short, someone who's big and small. um They're just unique differences. um No one kind of decides that they're going to be tall or short when they're born, um just as you don't decide whether you're going to be neurodivergent. In terms of what it looks like in the workplace and why it matters, it it unlocks untapped talent. um there are only There are a number of companies that are doing a number of different types of um kind of
00:04:13
Speaker
Well, they're doing it right when it comes to New Divergence. So you've got companies like Microsoft, a great example, who um I've listened to a number of podcasts from um a guy called Neil Bennett, who essentially is the director of disability within Microsoft. And he's been championing Inlandvercoat for New Divergence for a number of years, created incredible recruitment on kind of strategies and scalable um ways of working.
00:04:38
Speaker
um and really allowed for employees or new employees to come on board and feel champion, feel included, feeling equitable from the very beginning. um And really, it's just an opportunity to really discuss the different you know companies that are making a difference in the workplace, but also an opportunity to be able to share that it's not, again, a hope that you have to jump over. We are all human beings. We all bring our unique kind of differences and really being able to lean onto the strengths of of individuals and how they collaborate with each other.
Creating Thriving Environments for Neurodivergent Individuals
00:05:11
Speaker
yeah I think also it it's always, I think, difficult to first even understand if you are neurodiverse or not, because sometimes you don't ah you're not even a aware of, right? um And I think it helps if if um
00:05:31
Speaker
if you're aware of, um I call it maybe spikes, what are your spikes right um and edges? And I think, as you said, right this um everybody's different there. And and I always see the positive in in people's um characteristics and try to understand, um let's say as a manager, but also for myself, um how can I build a team or create an environment where um people with certain spikes and edges can really thrive. right So so let's let's say somebody that is more um towards an ADHD type of person, um which I, by myself, I would identify more with someone like this. I never got a diagnosis or so on, and I never really, am I think,
00:06:18
Speaker
was as a doctor and and nobody really cared or looked at it. But um I could hear just from the characteristics of myself could say, um you could maybe even diagnose it if you look at it, right? Because um I need and i to be calm. I need several things in parallel.
00:06:37
Speaker
going on in my life all the time that I can jump when I basically want, right? um And um this is why I wanted to also have a company, but also then started another one in a completely different field, which is completely not connected with each other. um And this is really um relaxing me actually, where maybe for somebody that is more maybe on the autism um spectrum maybe would be completely overwhelmed but with all the unknowns that are coming and all the the craziness that is happening. but i agree For instance, um it would be very hard for me to just sit down and do accounting every month or
00:07:19
Speaker
write code um that is doing one specific thing, very detailed, very structured. um Therefore, I rather use frameworks um because I think structure is also important, but you also need the flexibility zone. And and this is where i also this is how I look at it also from a management leadership perspective. um um Did you find a way for for yourself on how to leverage yourself?
00:07:43
Speaker
Yeah, no, definitely. I think you kind of hit the nail on the head. I think neurodivergence isn't one kind of shoe fits all. um We're all very different in that respect. So as you mentioned, if one person's autistic, their way of working, their kind of attributes or strengths might be different to someone with ADHD. And as you say, um you're an entrepreneur. A lot of entrepreneurs come from the ADHD kind of sphere, as it were. um They've got that kind of, you know, that foot on that pulse. They can see the pattern recognition. They have strengths when it comes to fast-paced environments. They don't get overwhelmed what other people perhaps do get overwhelmed, um but vice versa for neurotypical people. um So in that respect, yeah, I mean myself, I've been up and down. I started um sales about 16 years ago and I really enjoyed having my kind of pulse on that in that respect. So I was able to um really turn a lot of things into motor skills and it was kind of came to second nature. So I was able to do a lot of things without even considering or thinking about it.
00:08:39
Speaker
And I think a lot of people who are neurodivergent, in particular ADHD, don't really think before they do. And I don't mean that in a negative way. What I mean to say is, when you're starting a business, you can think about all the pros and the cons, but you just need to go and do it. You need to kind of come with an idea and see how it kind of, you know, do the research and just go for it. Because the thinking is the element that actually stops you from doing. um And similarly with me, I did eight years of of kind of sales. um I found myself kind of being not to sound big-headed, but the better better the kind of top three, the top kind of you know seller when it came to that. It was always good at being people-centric. um People-pleasing, I suppose, is a typical kind of trait of ADHD, um sadly. um But also just being able to understand tones, and body language, being able to really understand and listen to what people's needs are. I think being neurodivergent and being a late-diagnosed neurodivergent person with ADHD
00:09:33
Speaker
Often, we feel misunderstood, we feel shamed, we feel like we're not good enough, we have imposter syndrome. um And these are all kind of anxiety and depression, that all kind of traits and symptoms of neurodivergent people that I struggled with, but I never knew. I didn't know what that meant. My mum's neurodivergent. She's got narcolepsy. She's that one step above ADHD where she falls asleep often. um a I want to have a conversation with her and she just half there and half not. I've got friends who are autistic and it's just really, you know, finding the balance, understanding their strengths, understanding, you know, what what works, how we can collaborate, how we can speak, how we communicate. And ultimately, I've managed to find my
00:10:13
Speaker
my voice through kind of marandering that type of kind of kind of ah upbringing and environments. And ultimately, um fast forwarding to recruitment, I did just over two years in my first company. um I was really successful there in my first kind a year and a half. Something kind of clicked in my head and not in a good way. I kind of was a bit, I felt a bit lost. I felt like, right, I've done what I needed to do here. I don't feel like um I'm at my best. I don't feel i I'm kind of happy and I didn't know what it was. um i sir I certainly realized that later on, but it meant that I needed to, for me to get to where I am now, really try out different environments, find out my tribes, understand what kind of made me feel comfortable.
Underreporting & Support for Neurodivergence
00:10:57
Speaker
I think in recruitment, um having the tendency for ADHD is not an, I think it's not a disadvantage, right? No, no, no, no. Because it's so dynamic and you need to handle so many things in parallel. and Exactly. And especially so many um things with ah things that you cannot impact, meaning um you work with people on the hiring manager side, on the candidate aid side. So there are a lot of things that just can happen. And I think you need to be very relaxed about it.
00:11:26
Speaker
Exactly. You need to be relaxed about it. And as' as I've mentioned before, it's, you know, you're working with a number of different people. No one is the same. Everyone is unique. It doesn't matter whether you're neurodivergent or neurotypical. The point of it is we need to learn to be able to speak to each other in an equitable, inclusive, and diverse way. And again, it's um it's written with with recruitment in sales it is diverse you're able to experiment you're able to be curious you're able to really lean into thinking out of the box um and be that ideas person that creative person and and that's what i love about recruitment right um i love being able to champion and advocate for people that are underrepresented whilst also finding paths to to get to places where maybe people haven't necessarily got to before
00:12:08
Speaker
um because they've been scared to do it, or they've not felt comfortable or confident doing that. um So really creating these safe spaces for people um so that you are focused on values. um And again, some of the things I've mentioned around curiosity and um creativity and empathy, these are values that are very core to new divergent people, because as I say, they have been faced with a lot of adversity growing up. They felt misunderstood. And so they've had to work around ways to be able to speak and use their voice in a way that is um helpful, supportive, not challenging, but also you know true to themselves. yes um um bless you You also said you have some statistics on how many people in the workforce um are neurodivergent. Can you share some some data?
00:12:51
Speaker
Absolutely. So um I'm going to jump in with SAP. So one of the companies that, in my opinion, are doing it right when it comes to neurodivergence in terms of creating kind of inclusive hiring practices. So since 2015, SAP SAP have been working on a platform or program called Autism at Work. um And their pledge is to have at least 1% of their workforce neurodivergent.
00:13:14
Speaker
um now doesn't sound like a big number. It isn't a big number to be completely honest with you. And in know my opinion, a lot of people that are neurodivergent are not necessarily out. um They're not necessarily kind of sharing with their work partners or or colleagues or anyone, even HR, that they have a whether that's dyspraxia, autism, narcolepsy,
00:13:36
Speaker
just asperges, you know, any of those. In terms of facts, yes, give me one moment, sorry, I'm just bringing that because there are so many facts um that I have kind of searched. So um super, so super interesting facts um in terms of neurodivergent. So typically in work um in the UK, specifically, five percent to seven percent of workforces are made up of neurodivergent people.
00:13:59
Speaker
Now, that fact is based on um kind of people analytics that I've searched throughout a number of different companies. um But as mentioned quite just a moment ago, that fact isn't really a true reflection of what ADHD looks like in the workplace, because there are, as I say, a lot of people that are and don't necessarily want to share about that. I think you can um say it's maybe two to four times or two to five times more. I think the dark number is way higher than the actual number, the actual reported number. What do you think?
00:14:30
Speaker
Yes, I definitely, definitely agree with you. I mean, statistics say that one in nine people have a neurodivergence. So if we're looking at one in nine people across the globe that have neurodivergence, there can't be one percent in the workforce that have neurodivergence. There can't be, you know, um ah five and five to seven percent in and in and a UK kind of workforce. So I know that that fact and that statistic is wrong. It's not very reflective ah reflective of um the actual workforces. um And so in that respect,
00:14:58
Speaker
a lot of the data that I looked up and it's not empirical in that respect. It's based on the kind of real time when it was done as opposed to the now. um And we can talk about HR and data analytics as well. And you know when it comes to ah underrepresented talent, when it comes to um focusing on Latina or focusing on um the Bain community, ultimately we're not necessarily seeing true reflections of what that data looks like because people don't necessarily feel comfortable and confident sharing that in the first place.
Inclusive Practices & Recognizing Neurodivergent Needs
00:15:27
Speaker
um But again, some of the shocking information that I have found around um kind of ADHD in the workforce is is that people don't feel comfortable sharing it. And again, that's the whole point of having this podcast. And having podcasts and literature around it is to be able to demystify that information and really kind of point out that
00:15:47
Speaker
People are scared and people do feel that they might lose their job or they might be looked at as lesser. Um, and it is just really championing them in that respect. And, um, when looking into, let's say hiring, um, from a candidate perspective, but also from an hiring team perspective, when it comes to neurodiversity, um, what do you think are the attributes to consider, um, that make it more.
00:16:15
Speaker
um helpful in in hiring when you're faced with candidates that are neurodiverse or even hiring managers or whatever it is? No, definitely. I think or from a kind of firemanage perspective, I think um I do understand there's a lot of kind of nuances involved here. And I think ultimately, if you want to hire underrepresented communities, maybe specific to neurodivergence, it's really taking the time to understand that and what that means. um Because yes, you want to you want to sing from the clouds and say, our company is you know disability um kind of safe. It's neurodivergence safe. It's inclusive. It's diverse. But ultimately, what are we doing in order for it to be inclusive and diverse and and um kind of equitable?
00:16:59
Speaker
um So really hiring managers, unless they have their own lived experiences, unless they've done training, majority of hiring managers, they're doing a job and that job to them is they need to hire somebody. This is the interview process and this is the scorecard. That's all that matters and they just want to get people through the door. I understand that. I understand the need for speed. I understand you know wanting to make sure we hire somebody um so that you know mental health isn't affected in the team because we're one person down.
00:17:26
Speaker
But it's really, you know, educating hiring managers because if there is a lack of awareness of understanding, what are they doing that could maybe make a someone that's neurodivergent not feel that they're comfortable or confident in the interview? What can you focus on to help them bring out their strengths? What types of kind of questions could you ask? And maybe some examples of what you're asking, just so that that neurodivergent person knows what you're asking them.
00:17:50
Speaker
um often with um with companies. So I talk about Amazon. When I had my interview process, I didn't know I was neurodivergent. Definitely knew I was different. um But it was over one day. um It was a six-hour interview process. Each hour was with two people. um And they all happened to be diverse. And what I mean by that is they were underrepresented communities. We had women on the on the um on the interview. I had people from ah black the black community from on the interview. It just felt like I was the representation. It felt like it wasn't, you know, um white men in suits, sadly to say. um And so I felt very much seen and very much heard. And I felt like I could bring my authentic self because that's who I was seeing on the screen. um They, as an example, did it right because ultimately their are representation for the underrepresented, they asked me questions that focused on values rather than, you know, personal kind of um questions that maybe they wanted to relate with you.
00:18:42
Speaker
So those values really made it easy for me to be able to say, okay, so when we're doing leading from the front or we're we're talking about a different type of value, I have examples that I can bring to the table because I understand exactly what you're talking about. And I think that animosity, when it comes to hire managers and they're not really sure how to be able to tease those answers out of their kind of um potential employees, that is where things kind of um crumble, I suppose. And that's where people with neurodivergence, I guess, are not set up for success, but failure from the very beginning. um And again, it's asking those questions, recruiters and taking the the time to ask people, do you need reasonable adjustments? Do you need any help or support in the interview process? Because ultimately, if you're not asking that question, you're kind of letting know that in the candidate know that we're not a kind of disability
00:19:31
Speaker
um safe or disability-inclusive company, you're kind of letting them know that I'm just doing a job and that's the kind of, you know, that's that's that. And that's how I feel at least. um And so I'm always, it's always important regardless to always ask as part of one of my screening questions, are there any reason adjustments? Can we do anything? And I am seeing more and more of this happening when I am applying to roles, for instance, or I've seen opportunities online where you are you know asked if there are any kind of disabilities or anything that you want to talk and share about.
00:20:00
Speaker
um But a lot of the time, people don't want to share that with them because they don't feel comfortable or feel like they're not going to be interviewed in the first place. So really, that oneness is on the hiring managers, on the recruiter, and making sure that you're able to champion and the candidates from the very beginning so they feel safe and inclusive and and and equitable from the beginning.
00:20:18
Speaker
Definitely. And when it comes to, um let's say, if a first interview, a screening interview, is there something specific that you would look at? um And ah ah on a candidate perspective, when you are evaluating, for instance, for a next job or company by yourself, um um what are you looking for in terms of also a neurodiversity?
Strengths-based Hiring for Neurodivergent Candidates
00:20:40
Speaker
Absolutely. So specific to neurodiversity, I think I'm looking for strengths in what their anecdotes sound like. So ah I'm asking about collaboration. um I appreciate that sometimes myself, I kind of waffle a lot or I beat around the bush and I have a point that I want to make.
00:20:56
Speaker
um And it takes me some kind of time to get to those that get to that point. um But ultimately, it's seeing past that. Not everyone is able to be concise in an every given moment. um There are going to be days, times, neurotypical, neurodivergent. It doesn't matter. um There are going to be off days for people, off times. For instance, we're doing this 9am kind of podcast.
00:21:17
Speaker
I said yes to you, but that was very ADHD of me to be impulsive and be like, yes, that'll do it. But ultimately it would have been better had I moved the time to a bit later or asked if that was an opportunity so that I had more time to be able to wake up as it were. Um, but that being said, not everyone's the same. There are some people that are, you know, like to be up at night, some people that like to be go up in the morning. So ultimately it's really just making sure that you understand yourself and understand, um, what your needs are, because ultimately how can someone help you if you don't really know how to help yourself? Um,
00:21:47
Speaker
I'm not sure if that's the question you asked me. I think I perhaps did another waffle and went off on a tangent. but um no No, definitely. So I think that's that's important because I think if it's then maybe too inflexible or um then it just doesn't feel the right environment. Maybe for you and then just from the first get-go, you maybe don't even want to go down the road again, right? And just say, maybe i maybe that's not the right environment for me. And then you already, as a candidate, are maybe a bit skeptical. But okay, then you maybe go through the process, but there is always this skepticism in mind. And maybe it's a good sign because that you then see upfront that, hey, this is not the right environment for me. um And you then just go in with a mind like, okay,
00:22:31
Speaker
Why could it be wrong to be hired at that company or to take this job? And I think that's maybe not not a cool mindset to have going through a And you precisely, and I think again, that's another thing I think, um, overshare here. So my hiring process, I finished up with the economist, uh, back end of last year and I've been interviewing and I guess a lot of the kind of anecdotes that I'm sharing with you are of my own lived experiences. Um, I, I can go of course talk for other people as well, because I've been in those situations. I've also, you know, hired new divergent people and really it's, you know, um, it's.
00:23:12
Speaker
you're almost setting yourself up for failure because you're seeking validation from you know the feedback that you get that you don't always get and often companies don't bother. You're not seeing the red flags because you're spending so much time in making sure that you're answering the questions right and looking for those cues in their facial expressions, hoping that a hiring manager comes on the video in the first place that you can see what they look like and you can kind of get a bit of um you know a response or build a bit of rapport with them. um But ultimately, it's just When you're speaking to you know these candidates and you're really you know understanding what their needs are, they're no different to somebody else's. They're just telling you their experiences. They're sharing their anecdotes with you in their own way. It doesn't mean to say that they're better or or not as good. It just means to say that some people have learned their craft um or some people have
00:24:02
Speaker
What's the word that the word is masked that they're high performing masking people so they're able to mask so neurotypical so they're able to answer these questions, but they end up burning out a lot more and so ultimately it's really looking at the strengths to answer your initial question is looking at the strengths and the values of these potential employees is new divergent employees and recognizing um that they bring their own strengths that they see things in a different way that outside of the box, they think outside of the box.
00:24:26
Speaker
And ultimately, um how that compares to someone who isn't neurodivergent, i.e. the hire manager might be neurotypical, and not really seeing the kind of the relevance in what they're saying or not really seeing or understanding why they're explaining themselves that way. um And so, essentially, kind of losing interest in the conversation. And again, the neurodivergent person is now thinking, I can see they're losing interest.
00:24:48
Speaker
And then they start to feel imposter syndrome, that they're not good enough. They're not seeing the red flags within the interview process. They may even be offered like offered later later down the line. But actually, they missed all the cues from the very beginning because they weren't asked about reasonable adjustments. They didn't feel like the hiring manager really listened to what they were asking when they asked questions in emails, um when they were asking for clarifying questions to make sure they understood the question. The hiring manager maybe wasn't necessarily giving that to them.
00:25:12
Speaker
um And again, the home end is none the wiser because they haven't had the training. They're neurotypical. They haven't been around that environment. They're looking for one thing um when they're asking these questions and not thinking, okay, this person might be answering the question, but in a somewhat different way. um I'm not going to mark them down for that. I'm going to ask them some more questions because maybe they didn't get what I was saying. And so ultimately, it's just really changing your perception.
00:25:35
Speaker
changing the way that you kind of look at things because ultimately not one size fits all as mentioned at the very beginning there are tall people there are short people there are big people there are small people we're all very different and ultimately it's just trying to seek those brilliant says in individuals um in a way that.
00:25:50
Speaker
the other person receives it and the other person gets it. And the more that you do it, the more that you get stronger and more confident in doing it. um And ultimately, it just becomes more ingrained in your practice. And I think you'll find that neurotypical people will appreciate that too, because as I say, everyone has an off day. Thanks. please I think that were a great final words. um Thanks for your time. Thank you so much. Appreciate your time and thank you for having me on your podcast.