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#112 - Mert Amacoglu | Candidate Experience – Why It Matters
84 Plays26 days ago
Mert Amcaoglu is the Head of Talent at Bark, a fast-scaling services marketplace tech company. He focuses on hiring top talent while driving strategies that support rapid growth and global alignment. Passionate about data-driven hiring, he brings valuable insights into building high-performing teams.
Shownotes
00:00 - Intro & Context
04:14 - Impact on Employer Branding
06:29 - Frustrations in the Interview Process
11:11 - Constructive Feedback and Communication
13:15 - The Future of Candidate Experience
25:20 - Top Tips for Enhancing Candidate Experience
Links
Guest Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/mertamcaoglu/
Yeliz Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/yeliz-castillo/
Yeliz e-mail: yeliz.castillo@pplwise.com
pplwise: https://pplwise.com/
Recommended
Transcript
Employer Branding and Hiring Challenges
00:00:07
Speaker
If, you know, if your employing branding is not strong or it's lacking in certain areas, you're essentially missing out on a whole pool of candidates. So I think to give you the best ability to essentially hire what you're looking for is really important to have, um you know, good candidate experience, which ultimately does need to employ branding. And on the flip side, if you have bad employee branding, you really struggle to bring good candidates in, even if you're an amazing recruiter,
00:00:38
Speaker
Hello, Merz. Nice to have you here. Thanks for having me. You're very welcome. Thank you for being here.
Impact of Candidate Experience
00:00:46
Speaker
So today's episode is with Merz Amjolo and we will be talking about the topic, candidate experience and why it matters. And it's a very interesting and important topic to my heart, but first I would like to know why this topic is important to you.
00:01:07
Speaker
Like I said, thank you fit's thank you for the in invite. um It's a pleasure to be here. Candidate experience, definitely super important for anyone in recruitment, whether that's external or internal. um It's all about the journey we take the candidate through. And um more than anything, I think why it's important to me is it's quite rewarding to find people new roles. Again, whether it's contractors, whether it's permanent and bringing in ah people or employees into you know your company. I think um it's very rewarding you know getting someone all the way from advertisement all the way to making them your new hire. And I think it's also a great tool um if you can really ensure your candidate experience is great. It's such a great tool and it makes you know a lot of difference with the recruitment process.
00:01:58
Speaker
For sure. I think also so it touches the various different topics, right? Like it's one thing to have a good candidate experience for the candidates, but then in reverse, it kind of touches back on to your employer branding, right? um How you look in the market and and what the first touch point of the market is with your company. um But then I think the other one is also um the the the reputation that you kind of build. you know it It sometimes is just a first impression and it might not work out in that moment with that candidate, but you never know. It might open
00:02:37
Speaker
other doors later on and especially in a time where it's so difficult to find, you know, candidates that are really suitable for your roles and because there's so much demand in so many different ways.
Enhancing Employer Branding
00:02:48
Speaker
So m what would you say? Like from your perspective and your experiences, how does kind of experience really impact employer branding?
00:03:00
Speaker
From an employee branding perspective, I mean, it has such a big impact. I mean, with candidate experience, it's really important to make sure, you know, it's a positive experience all the way from advertisement going out or whether you're headhunting and reaching out to people.
00:03:17
Speaker
It's all about that first communication and that hook almost to what's going to make them want to work in your company. And I think it has such a big impact on you know firstly, the quality of candidates that apply for the role. If you know if your employing branding is not strong or it's lacking in certain areas, you're essentially missing out on a whole pool of candidates. So I think to give you the best ability to essentially hire what you're looking for, it's really important to have, um you know, good candidate experience, which ultimately does need to employ branding. And on the flip side, if you have bad employee branding, you really struggle to bring good candidates in. Even if you're an amazing recruiter and you have all the tools available, yeah it's just so hard. If your branding is not there, you know, you you your you your fight, you know, your, what's the word I'm looking for?
00:04:09
Speaker
youre You're just trying to climb the hill that keeps getting steeper. Yeah, that's very true. Also because like I'm thinking of myself, I also know for myself, but and also from candidates that sometimes they apply for any kind of role within a certain company just because they want to work for that company, regardless of the role, right? So I think that's also another perspective that we could look at so um on on why it's really important.
Candidate Frustrations in Recruitment
00:04:34
Speaker
So what would you say are the biggest frustrations that candidates face when they um go through an interview process. There's a variety of stuff that could really be a bad experience. I think the most important one, especially right now where it's a market where there's a lot of candidates available,
00:04:55
Speaker
I think just a lack of communications. like its if if you know If someone has applied for a role um and you don't get back to him within a certain timeframe, I think that's quite poor. There's so many ATSs now or CRMs that you use that are you know fully automated. It doesn't take much to set this up. Whether it's a positive feedback to move them to a screening call, or whether it's a negative impact, um a negative feedback that you know you don't want to move ahead with them because maybe there's better candidates in the pool. I think just even communicating that you will not be moving ahead with someone goes such a long way and like you said I think again that's that really starts to build like your brand like people will be aware oh okay this company cares about the people that apply for their roles even if they reply and replying and saying you know we're not moving ahead at this stage it's always
00:05:48
Speaker
a great idea to keep the door open because you never know. You might need this candidate six months down the line, 12 months down the line. and I mean, I'm sure you know, I know we've hired so many candidates that we've kept in touch with over the years. And I think just, and that's just starting from that communication that, you know, you constantly try to, um yeah.
00:06:11
Speaker
being contact with Yeah. And what do you do specifically to
Feedback in Recruitment
00:06:17
Speaker
avoid that? Like you we're talking about giving feedback, for example, to candidates on a timely manner. What would you say? Like what are you, what are, what are the things that you do to provide a good candidate experience?
00:06:28
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, just, just for that first, first sort of point of contact when they've applied to a role or, you know, you reach out to them but by a headhunting method and you wanted to speak to them. And I think it's very important to give them the reason of, if you're not moving ahead, why? I think the why is very important. And so we use, and we use team Taylor as an ATS and we've got a variety of reasons of why we potentially are not going ahead with this candidate, whether it is, you know, if it's a hybrid model and you know, you need someone to be based in London, they're up in Liverpool, that's obviously not possible. and So whether it's a location, whether it's salary, whether it's, um you know, a specific industry they worked in that is maybe not relevant. And so we always try to give a reason. So I think that's the first thing.
00:07:22
Speaker
and this also helps us when we're recruiting because you know all of this is data so we can go back and look at this data three months down the line six months down the line or whatever in a year and we can see you know x number of percentage of the reasons why we didn't go ahead with the candidate was maybe because our salaries were too low.
00:07:41
Speaker
And then that opens up another conversation of, is our salary bandings in the correct place? is it to Is it to the expectations of the market? So you start to build, I guess, data from this communication. It works both ways because you you're also providing them with a good candidate experience. But on the backend, and you're building a lot of data that you know the talent team can use to make decisions.
00:08:04
Speaker
crucial. I mean, this data is everything, especially if you want to improve, 100% agree. and Going back now to what you said with like the data and like giving the reason, and funny enough, actually, just today I was rejecting someone and I called them up because what I usually do, and this is like my way of doing it, i when i'm in when i when I'm in the first call with a candidate, I usually tell them,
00:08:34
Speaker
Add that you know if it's a positive and next step then they will receive an email or a call from me and if it's a no then they will receive a very boring message that's not. and Going ahead further and that we give detailed feedback after the second stage so this is like kind of the way i'm kind of manage expectation already yeah and but with certain roles.
00:08:54
Speaker
What I also do is I tell them straight away in the first call, and I have my weekly on Wednesday, you know whenever the day is. And if I come don't come back to you by then, then it means it's a no. If it goes further, then I will call you. like you know When I do, for example, high-value ah hiring. And so I have my different ways. And again, today I was calling someone um after the third round and rejected them. And he was like, you could have just sent me an email.
00:09:22
Speaker
Why did you call me and tell me this? And wasting my time almost. So it's funny, like sometimes we also think that people want to know, but I think that's also not the norm nowadays. honestly guy and then And then you have other people that you do you know call and they're really grateful that they actually do receive you know Yeah, it's it's very hard, like everyone's different. But I think just like you said, it's it's all about just setting the expectations. I mean, I'm sure, yeah and you you'll probably agree with me, we would all love to call candidates for every person who's applied, call them, reject them. But unfortunately, we you know, we won't have the time. We'll be on the through the phone all day. So like there are certain times where at certain stages it does have to be just an email. But I agree, anyone post screening call,
00:10:11
Speaker
Um, yeah, it would always be a phone call where it's positive or negative. Yeah. and yeah i I agree. And I think, and if you don't have the capacity for that, then what you can also do is just send an email still, but then offer that the opportunity for the person who can call afterwards if they wanted to have more feedback. Um, I think that's also an option, but it's funny, like how the the candidate experience really does differ. And, you know, it's not just like a one size fits all kind of project. yeah and Even differs from like the different departments in your company to the the different levels. Yeah, it really does depend on the role here.
Learning from Feedback Mistakes
00:10:51
Speaker
Yeah. And them would you say that like you also had some moments where you thought you were you know doing something ah you know for a candidate in in your in in your way that it was like a positive thing, but it went completely south? like Do you have any kind of example of that and that you could share? um Maybe when I first started my recruitment career in an agency, staff group, shout out staff group.
00:11:17
Speaker
ah
00:11:19
Speaker
I think I gave, I got feedback from a client, which then I passed on to the candidate and it was a pretty harsh feedback. I didn't filter it. I just almost forwarded it on. And I think there is a degree of, you know, of course constructive constructive criticism is is good to a certain extent, but they I do find there's probably a very fine line of what's harsh and what's not. um And I'm not saying like, you should, you know, edit the feedback. I'm just saying you almost, I think this comes with the experience, you almost filter through what's relevant, what's going to help them improve. And then what's what's almost like, not not necessary in a sense.
00:12:05
Speaker
Oh my God, 100% agree. I think I had to learn this also the hard way. and Very similar. And I think you just get used to, and I think, as you said, it comes with experience and time that you know exactly okay what is right to share and what isn't because certain things are also you know between the lines. And I think also specifically maybe and between the hiring manager and engineer you, where they open up and tell you maybe certain things.
00:12:30
Speaker
But I think since we're in a professional environment, it's really about giving constructive feedback and things that are really helpful. um also Because there's also this big topic involved always, and that's bias, right? um So I think you can really not tell everything that you want to, or that you've been told when it comes to feedback. So a tip, top tip to everyone um who's listening and who is starting off as a recruiter, please don't share all the feedback. I can backfire for sure. Yeah, I agree. and Great. And what would you say is like the future of candidate experience?
AI in Recruitment
00:13:10
Speaker
How should be the ideal candidate experience look like? I mean, it's it's so hard to say what it would look like, but obviously with with sort of the whole AI stuff everyone's talking about now, I think there'll be certain elements of
00:13:28
Speaker
you know, applying for roles or the screening part where you can definitely utilize AI tools and make, make your process a lot more streamlined. I think one of the, one of the things candidates hate the most is a long and lengthy process that's not streamlined. So how almost, how can you use this tech?
00:13:48
Speaker
this automation, this whatever it may be, AI, that can help you to improve efficiency, improve quality of candidates, improve the process. It might even be not related to the actual hiring side. It might be how can you use AI to dive into your data, your recruiting data, and how how can you you know make the the recruitment needle, as they say, thicker and have more candidates.
00:14:17
Speaker
I mean, I don't know what what it would look like, but I can see a lot of processes being a lot more streamlined, automated. And yeah, I think it will always have the human touch. I think we both know recruitment you know won't exist without the human touch. I think we'll never be replaced by robots. But yeah, I think it will be a combination of both.
00:14:41
Speaker
Yeah, and big shout out to all the companies out there.
Streamlining Application Processes
00:14:45
Speaker
I think for me, the most frustrating bit in in a kind of as a candidate that was always these huge application forms that you had to fill in, you know where you have have to upload your CV and then you have to fill in the exact same information on their website. i mean ah like Honestly, I remember I used to Like in the very beginning when, when I started applying, like there was one point where as soon as it wasn't an easy apply and I saw that there was like a long form, I would just stop applying. Like I just wouldn't anymore because, you know, if you do that once or twice, it's okay. But if you're actively looking and you, you know, have to do that with almost every application is so frustrating and it's so time consuming yeah and then sometimes you don't even get an answer from, you know, from certain places. So.
00:15:35
Speaker
Honestly, if I could ditch anything, that would be the first thing I would, if I could. Absolutely. Likewise, when I was looking for a new role and I came across a website like that, where you have to upload your CD and then fill in all the details after, I simply closed the tab. Literally. I did not work for a company that still thinks that's okay. Right? Especially not in an era of easy apply, like no. And the CV. And then also now, like being on the other side, you know, where you look at the CV, what, maybe five seconds, 10 seconds maximum. And, you know, honestly, really don't need to have all the information double and triple for no reason. So I think that is my biggest pet peeve when it comes to, yeah. I prefer candidates who
00:16:27
Speaker
write a cover letter, whether even if it's a paragraph or two, I think that goes a really long way that like helps their CV as well. um I think having that personal touch, whether it it might not even be cover letter, it might be just a paragraph on the top of their CV, just explaining why they want to work for your company and and why they feel they're the best match for it or the good match for it. I think that goes a long way.
The Role of Cover Letters
00:16:53
Speaker
Yeah. And what's the take on cover letters generally? Like from a candidate experience, do you think that's outdated, a cover letter? And I'm not talking about the paragraph, right? But as you expect your candidates or, you know, no I mean, I think it's always you know in my view, it always has to be optional. I wouldn't make it mandatory because again, you're probably losing out on a lot of candidates who will, you know, be like, okay, well,
00:17:18
Speaker
that's almost a ah block of me i'll go apply it to another role that's easy to apply right so i think um having it optional is always the best approach especially today where it's so easy to apply for roles but then i do feel like if someone is super interested in the role why wouldn't they do it? Because I think it does potentially make them stand out. You know, every roles now we're getting so many candidates applying. And I think it can make a difference if you go that one step further. But but again,
00:17:50
Speaker
It really varies on the role in the sector, in the industry and even in your department. It's a case by case. You can't say it's not a one size fits all. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think like, ro like rather than a like cover letter, I think if they would just give like an option to write like a couple of sentences, you know, which is way more authentic and personal, I think, then a cover letter that is kind of, let's be honest,
00:18:19
Speaker
probably done for, you know, like a, like a template and then be just adjusted to each company, which is obviously and something that we all have done. Um, and in the era of chat GPT, you know, I think it's way better to just do that. But as you said, like as an option, I think there are certain sectors and maybe even some roles where this is, would make a difference to read that. But generally I don't think it should be mandatory to what what we've done.
Effective Candidate Filtering
00:18:45
Speaker
What we do here at the park is, um, we.
00:18:49
Speaker
We try to at least add like two or three questions per role of like real key skills you need to be able to do this role. So for example, if I'm looking for a backend Python engineer, one of my questions will be is.
00:19:04
Speaker
do you have experience with Python or how many years of it with Python do you have or not even necessarily years of experience you know more like which projects have you worked on with Python and if the answer is like no I haven't or whatever it may be.
00:19:19
Speaker
then you already know that candidate is going to be no good. So so again, it's almost this like ah it's a way of filtering yeah on our side. And then it it it really does help like make the the vast number of candidates applying, um at least you know some of them who you know are not relevant. Again, because it's so easy to apply, you do get some candidates who apply who are not relevant. It's just easy to filter through to get to the candidates who can really do the job and who can really join and drive impact.
00:19:48
Speaker
Yeah, totally agree. Yeah, I think that's way, way more efficient and helpful from both sides, right? Because also if as a candidate, um you get asked certain questions and you know that you don't have that skill or the experience, then you kind of know for yourself as well whether this is probably going forward or not, you know? and I think um it helps both sides. So yeah, I think from a candidate experience perspective,
00:20:15
Speaker
ah you know relevant questions to like and to ask relevant questions to the role rather than asking to fill out the CV details. Yeah exactly and even if those candidates who are not relevant and they somehow get through and you screen them and then they have an interview they're going to be pushing the whole time because they obviously are not suitable for the job so then why would you make them stressed almost to go through that process, which again leads back to the candidate experience. Like that's not a good candidate experience. You want to have relevant candidates for the role. So yeah, it works both ways for sure. Yeah.
Onsite vs Online Interviews
00:20:49
Speaker
And what do you think about, again, candidate from a candidate experience perspective about having onsite interviews or online interviews? So we operate a
00:21:03
Speaker
a mixture of hybrid model and remote working. So I have the view of both sides. I think for certain roles, having that onsite interview really makes a big difference. um I wouldn't i wouldn't I mean, I already feel that's relevant for candidates who are at final stage maybe. So someone who's obviously invested a lot of time, they know you, they know your product, they've obviously been through a couple of interviews and they're at the final stage. I think at that point, that's the best time to
00:21:36
Speaker
offer someone and when i say offer like it's not mandatory it's just a suggestion you know people have lives they have kids whatever it may be it might not be possible that's also absolutely fine but we always offer if you would prefer the final stage you know, we can do it in person, you can meet your potential new colleagues, you can see the environment, the office, you can see what the commute is like. So I think it almost helps, helps them make a decision as well. um And I think it's, you know, if someone is joining a company, and they're making that decision, I think it's, it's obviously an important decision, right? So I think it's almost like they, we want them to be comfortable with the decision they're making.
00:22:20
Speaker
yeah um But again, it's not optional. and It's not mandatory, it's optional. So you know it's whoever they want to. And I would say 95% of the time, they love to come in and meet be banny people. Yeah. Yeah, I agree. Yeah, I think it again also depends, I guess, also on the location where the role is based. um Obviously, if you're in a different country, whatever, then this might be a bit more difficult. But um I think as well, it's, it's important to have that like personal touch almost yeah and kind of know where your future, you know, your new chapter is going to be, you know, when, especially if you work in a hybrid model. So I do agree. I think it's, it's, I think the the initial two or three calls, depending on how many stages there are could be done online. yeah Um, because I think you get also good understanding of everything, you know, having just like a very focused conversation.
00:23:14
Speaker
yeah um And it's also more efficient and more doable because you don't have to take time off from your current and role. For example, if you have to travel there or, you know, it's just more efficient that you can squeeze in like a half an hour or an hour call. isn Exactly. sketch It really depends on your circumstances. Yeah. yeah But then at the same time, I think it's really, really important before you actually hire someone that that person comes in, still gets, you know, to take in where their office is, who the colleagues are, what's the environment like, and also for the company, right? like I think you also kind of get a better vibe of someone when you meet them in person. So I think it should definitely be.
00:23:52
Speaker
A thing. It's just crazy to me, you know, when I first, like when I started my career, I used to go for every initial conversation on the onsite. You know, like back then there was no, no hybrid model. Everyone was like in the office five days a week and you would come.
00:24:09
Speaker
Literally. And it's so funny. Like now I can't even imagine, you know, going for every interview, imagine like all the interviews I do, like imagine being on site and people coming in and out. Like you wouldn't be able to have this many interviews so that you need a lot of energy.
00:24:24
Speaker
Yeah, energy and time. Because it like I literally 90% of my time I sit in interviews.
Evolution of Interview Processes
00:24:31
Speaker
So I wonder like if this would be actually on site, I would basically not be able to do anything but sit in this meeting room and have interviews all day long. You know, so I wonder if sometimes like back in the day that the times like the time to hire was way longer.
00:24:48
Speaker
than it is now. I remember, I remember this was ages ago now, eight, nine years ago, I had to take off half a day to spend, ah spend a time on site for like free interviews. Yeah. I actually had to use annual holiday for interviews. You think about it now you're like Crazy. but let's Literally. But yeah, that's what I'm saying. So it has really changed a lot. So yeah I guess we are already in the future of candidate experience in that sense. And yeah, let's see what's going to be changing even more within this. m But yeah, what would you say? And
Enhancing Candidate Experience
00:25:28
Speaker
this is my last question. What would be your top tip for companies to enhance the candidate experience and summary?
00:25:36
Speaker
um I think going back to what I said earlier, just around like transparency, you know, and just be transparent with people, set expectations. What we've done recently is we've added the interview process to the job description and even just adding that description there goes such a long way. Candidates already know what the process is going to be that before they even apply for the role.
00:25:59
Speaker
So it makes such a big difference of like setting expectations. I think you can streamline hiring processes, especially if you're internal, you know, your stakeholders are your hiring managers. These are people and colleagues you work with. yeah After every successful recruitment, if possible, depending on workload, of course, um it's always good to just, just realign with your stakeholder, understand what worked, what didn't work.
00:26:27
Speaker
Do you need to build a list of interviewers, like an interviewer pool of people available? Do you need to think about holidays? Like is is the summer period coming up or is Christmas coming up? So just trying to work out the best time to launch roles and how to streamline them. um And then I think you just provide the feedback, right? Again, we mentioned it was the first thing we mentioned, just providing feedback with candidates, whether that's then them going ahead to the next steps, or even if it's just a rejection, um just even a one-liner of this, you know, we didn't decide to go ahead because of X reason goes such a long way. Yeah. Great. Thank you so much, Matt. It was lovely talking to you. And um yeah, all the best to you. Sweetest one. Bye. Thank you.