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#115 - Laura Wilkinson | Behind the Curtain: How TA Shapes Candidate Experiences
13 Plays2 hours ago
"A true recruiter who has come up through the ranks and is now Global Head of Talent, a serious hustler from the university of life and dedicated mum.”
Shownotes
00:00 - Intro & Context
08:38 - The Importance of a Positive Mindset
21:25 - The Role of Employers in Supporting Working Parents
28:47 - Top Tips for New Moms Returning to Work
Links
Guest Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/laura-wilkinson-007197245/
Yeliz Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/yeliz-castillo/
Yeliz e-mail: yeliz.castillo@pplwise.com
pplwise: https://pplwise.com/
Recommended
Transcript
Early Return to Work After Maternity Leave
00:00:06
Speaker
And how was it for you to go back this early? I think because usually, you know, most women choose to stay like a whole year. and Looking back, would you say that was...
00:00:19
Speaker
the best you could have done or would you rather say it would have been better maybe to stay a bit out longer or obviously depending on the circumstance of why you went back this early but how do you feel about that like going back early yeah so honestly i loved going back to work I really did I really felt like as a mum I actually came into my own when I went back to work.
00:00:45
Speaker
It also coincided with when I was, you know, we were really making good headway with like weaning our daughter and she was eating, you know, lots of solids and so like making her food, me going back to work, I just felt like, okay, this this is the new normal.
00:01:03
Speaker
For me, maternity leave, I was always very clear with myself that It was temporary. And I think that this is a mistake that a lot of people make in that they forget it's for a temporary period of time.
00:01:20
Speaker
and then it hits them like a ton of bricks when it's time to go back. Whereas if you're, okay, this is financially how long I'm going to be off for.
00:01:34
Speaker
Hello everyone.
Challenges of Being a Working Mom
00:01:36
Speaker
Today's episode is with the lovely Laura Wilkinson, who is the global head of talent at Intent HQ, but she's also a working mom with a very successful career. And we have a very great topic, which is exactly that, that we're going to talk about today.
00:01:55
Speaker
and Welcome, Laura. so nice to have you. and i would love to start with the question of why this topic is important to you.
00:02:07
Speaker
Yes, I think that it's important because... It's a hard adjustment for people who are either going back to work um following mat leave or people who have been back at work and the world is, you know, this whole return to the office topic is is ever changing.
00:02:26
Speaker
And so it's just really about... just in my experience and my journey, things that have helped me adjust, make sure that I feel like I'm being, you know, the best employee I can be and also the best mum. And and yeah, so I thought I might have some useful insight to just help People get there their head round what is a constantly changing landscape and a lot of pressure for people, you know, whether you're working mum, working dad, whatever, it's hard. So I'm hoping to just help get some ideas for people to make it a bit easier, really.
Child Care Management Challenges
00:03:04
Speaker
Great. Thank you
00:03:05
Speaker
What would you say were the biggest challenges for you I think it's when you you feel that you've got your child care plan sorted and then you know life happens and you need to quickly and you know reorganize what you're doing so for me it was i was really lucky when I initially came back which was six and a half years ago now um but my both my mum and my mother-in-law were splitting the child care so it was it was great my daughter was only seven months old at the time
00:03:40
Speaker
um So she was very young and and I didn't like love the idea of of sending her to nursery that young. So I was very lucky. But then my mother-in-law um got very ill and and she did pass away.
00:03:54
Speaker
and so it was a, you know, quick, we've you know, find another solution. And of course, wait lists on nurseries now can be... years long, ah you know, at least probably a good few months.
00:04:08
Speaker
So and that was really hard when you feel like you're like, okay, this is our routine and then something happens. which Which kind of leads me on to the first tip, which would be that everything's very transient.
Adapting to Life's Changes
00:04:24
Speaker
So things are always going to change. Your child is going to get older. fun Levels of funding change. Your circumstances will change. And so it's always about not getting too attached to a particular situation.
00:04:41
Speaker
routine or setup you constantly need to be open to rolling with with what might come at you and and and being flexible flexible around that so yeah Okay, and um so first of all, I'm sorry about your mother-in-law's loss.
00:04:59
Speaker
um Obviously, I can imagine that this must have had like a big impact on your family, of course. But then i think sometimes what we really forget as a society is like this big change. I mean, it's all positive, of course, to have a child.
00:05:14
Speaker
But then it has also some negative sides, I guess, especially as a woman, you know, or like it doesn't have to be negative, but it can be difficult because you have to adjust to a new chapter. You have to adjust to your body, to your new body as well. And you have to adjust to and all the changes that happen.
00:05:32
Speaker
And then of course, there is also this other outside world where also things can change like the loss that you experience.
Strategies for Emotional Well-being
00:05:40
Speaker
How would you say, can you get over that and um deal with all that change, I guess?
00:05:49
Speaker
Yeah, and it it's, a I wish I could say it's really easy and and it doesn't take a toll on you in in some way, shape or form. But it is, you know, you you will go on a roller coaster is the honest answer, again, in in my experience.
00:06:04
Speaker
and I think that... things that you can do, especially as a woman. And I'm saying that because of, you've mentioned, you know, your body changes, cetera, et cetera.
00:06:16
Speaker
And if you are going back to work, you know, like I say, I i wasn't even... seven, eight months past labor when I went back, which if if there's someone in the US listening to this, they could be going back as early as a month.
00:06:30
Speaker
Like it's crazy over there. I can't imagine that. and So it's really, it is genuinely important that you prioritize finding way doing the things that make you feel like yourself.
00:06:49
Speaker
I'm not going to say prioritize self-care because i I think that that's so easy to say. And when you're on potentially ah very low hour, hours of sleep, um,
00:07:00
Speaker
You've got a job. um you You want a ah life as well. But and fits if it's going to the gym, if it's getting up before everybody else to sit downstairs by yourself and have a coffee just in a bit of quiet,
00:07:15
Speaker
and what whatever, these these little glimmers that you can start to add into your day, you've got to be realistic about it. You're probably not going to go for a spa day every week. You're probably not going to just be able to whiz off on a Saturday for three hours, you know, and and do whatever you want.
00:07:32
Speaker
So it's all about a realistic... fitting things in where you can that just give you that half an hour sat down quietly or whether it's meditation reading your book I used it's I used to love doing a word search so my thing would be i get my little word search book and just have like a coffee um and just just those little moments throughout the day that just just allow you just to kind of breathe and then go into the next thing that you're going to be doing Yeah.
00:08:02
Speaker
So it's hard, but you yeah you need to prioritize yourself because if you go down, yeah and everyone goes down. Yeah, for sure.
Balancing Personal and Professional Growth
00:08:11
Speaker
and And how was it for you to go back this early? I think because usually, you know, most women choose to stay like a whole year.
00:08:19
Speaker
um Looking back, would you say that was the best you could have done or would you rather say it would have been better maybe to stay a bit out longer or obviously depending on the circumstance of why you went back this early but how do you feel about that like going back early yeah so honestly I loved going back to work.
00:08:41
Speaker
I really did. i really felt like as a mum, I actually came into my own when I went back to work. It also coincided with when I was, you know, we were really making good headway with like weaning um our daughter and she was eating, you know, lots of solids and so like making her food, me going back to work.
00:09:02
Speaker
I just felt like ah okay, this this is the new normal. For me, maternity leave, I was always very clear with myself. It was temporary. And I think that this is a mistake that a lot of people make in that they they forget it's for a temporary period of time and then it hits them like a ton of bricks when it's time to go back.
00:09:28
Speaker
Whereas if you're, okay, this is financially how long I'm going to be off for, The reasons for me returning are probably not right, as in i didn't want to be forgotten about.
00:09:42
Speaker
So I worked to get to a certain level before I even tried for a baby because I was like, right, I want to get to this level, knowing that that means when I am back, I'll have a bit more autonomy about how I manage my day.
00:09:57
Speaker
yeah and And I did rush back because i didn't want to be forgotten about and replaced, which yeah was probably more in my mind than the reality of the situation.
Societal Judgments on Working Mothers
00:10:09
Speaker
and and I used to love it. So I'd get back. i i do I'd get in early so I could get out, you know, a bit earlier. And I used to love that half an hour before anyone else got in. And I'd have a coffee.
00:10:22
Speaker
might get my word search out. And I'd just have like... 20 minutes of just peace and quiet. And it was funny one day, actually, because ah somebody asked, there was there was a group of us that had gone on mat leave and came back at around the same time. Yeah.
00:10:39
Speaker
And i I was thinking, am i is there something wrong with me? Because everyone else kept like going into the toilets to cry and just really upset. And I sort of said, oh, no, actually, i I quite like it. And then yeah one of my colleagues said, that's because you're a horrible mum.
00:10:57
Speaker
and like And, oh, i' I mean, she may have been joking, but it really cut like a, you know, you think, am I a horrible mum? But I'm not.
00:11:09
Speaker
i'm I'm a mum who wants to work hard so that my daughter has ah good set up. And if I'm, my attitude was and is, if I'm going to get up and leave you, it's going to be for the best possible money, like return on investment for me. yeah So crying in the toilets...
00:11:30
Speaker
isn't going to help with that. So, and I'm not, you know, um I'm not knocking anybody who does have a, have, have a little cry, but yeah, again, for me, it was just, this is the new normal. There's, there's no point fighting against it.
00:11:44
Speaker
ah Embrace it and see, well, what can I actually enjoy? What can I look forward to having that little bit of quiet time, you know? For sure. And I think there, I mean, there is, I think the balance to everything, right? Like if you would just like chuck your child somewhere and you wouldn't care for it and wouldn't care and just go to work and blindly and you know, kind of shut down everything else, then I think that's ah that's also questionable.
00:12:08
Speaker
But I think if you, you know, have really the goal to be the best version of yourself for your child, then your child will benefit way more of that than...
00:12:20
Speaker
um yeah, you know, losing yourself and everything and and kind of being unhappy with yourself. So I think there is really this narrative in society that, you know, once you have a child that you have to kind of give up your whole life and there is no way back and, you know, and and and you just live basically for your child, which I think is completely wrong.
00:12:38
Speaker
um I think, you know, obviously you have to care and and your child should be your main priority because also it's very dependent on you. But at the same time,
Transitioning Child to Nursery
00:12:48
Speaker
if you want to help your child, you need to look after yourself as well in the best possible way, as you said, with those little things that, I don't know, taking your five, 10 minutes in the morning and and just have a quiet coffee or whatever it is that gives you peace of mind.
00:13:01
Speaker
And I think this is a really great message that, you know, we shouldn't also be judgmental to anyone, right? Like if anyone chooses to do a certain thing, you don't know what a person goes through until you actually live what they live.
00:13:14
Speaker
yeah. I think saying that to someone is not... the way forward to support each other as well, you know, especially when you go through um something very similar. so I'm sorry that you had to experience that.
00:13:26
Speaker
Yeah. And in my experience, I mean, i I've worked with some truly amazing women so far in my career, genuinely. And actually, the ones who, it to what you've just said around, you don't know what someone's going through.
00:13:43
Speaker
I've known people to be going through literally life or death, like that they're ill. They've got serious stuff going on and they show they've showed up.
00:13:54
Speaker
Not, you know, they've taken the time they've needed, but they've showed up and then no they're not showing, they're masking a lot. And so when you say things like that to people, oh, you're a horrible mum or, oh, blah, blah, you don't know what's going on for for anybody.
00:14:11
Speaker
and And so i think that, yeah, you're best to just... Just, yeah, just be respectful and be just be kind. just Just be kind. You really don't know what's going on. And that's why, you know, people who are upset when they return to work, I know I had a little cry. I i went into the the shopping centre on my lunch break that day and ah and a baby went past in a push chair and cried.
00:14:37
Speaker
But the the sound was like, you feel like it's your own child. and And I did have a bit of a moment where I welled up. But again, it was it was a bit of a... snap out of it like you've got to you've got to come to work because you've got a mortgage and all the rest of it um and also I had this kind of hang up about you'll come back in a year and you'll get passed up on promotions and stuff um and so yeah I just I just adjusted to it and equally
00:15:10
Speaker
your Your children pick up on everything that you're feeling. they Honestly, i i before I had a child, I used to probably think, but honestly, they are so in tune with you.
00:15:21
Speaker
And my daughter, she she settled into nursery when we eventually had to send her to nursery. And I and i have to say... I really do feel for people who at six months old, nine months old are having to leave their child at a nursery five days a week.
00:15:36
Speaker
That must be really tough. And so I, you know, I'm not judging the emotional state of people. I was lucky that I had my, uh, grandpa, the grandparents help him.
00:15:48
Speaker
But when we did eventually have her into nursery with, with my mother-in-law passing away, we We were like inside. i was you know i i I hated the idea of it, but to her it was, this is going to be so exciting for you and da-da-da. And after literally two days, she'd she'd skip in and she was fine.
00:16:08
Speaker
If you're crying at the door and almost apologising for sending them to nursery, they pick up on that and then they really struggle with it. So it's just about... um you know, again, what are the positives of sending your child to nursery?
00:16:26
Speaker
There's loads loads of positives. So just really focus on those would be my advice. Yeah. And how would you say, like, where did you get the strength from? How did you go through those, you know, moments like with your child, obviously crying and leaving it and kind of, you know, switching your mindset, I guess, to the more positive outlook of the situation rather than the emotional side?
Workplace Support and Flexibility
00:16:53
Speaker
Yeah, I would probably use the air hostess analogy, as in if you're on a plane and the air hostess looks nervous, you're going to start bricking it. So so true.
00:17:07
Speaker
I do that too. So I was like, if she sees me looking all upset and walking away crying, and I did cry when I got in the car. Of course I cried when I got in the car.
00:17:18
Speaker
But as far as she was concerned, you're going the best day ever. They start to make their, although they're only little, they they start to they do start to make connections and friendships. And the staff at the nursery I sent her to were brilliant. and like i I was, again, it was a great nursery.
00:17:35
Speaker
And I was proud that, because I'm working hard, I'm able to send her to to this nursery. So yeah it was it was that my choice to go back to work quickly.
00:17:48
Speaker
and thank God I did because had my mother-in-law, obviously she passed away, had I have been off longer and not been earning money and then had to put her straight in a nursery, it would have been just a disaster. I probably wouldn't have had the pick of the bunch.
00:18:05
Speaker
yeah So, yeah, focusing on just we really putting my daughter first and thinking, how is she feeling? And if I act a certain way... she's going to gauge and that's how she's going to feel too. So just about just smiling, smiling through the view.
00:18:22
Speaker
That's great. No, I agree. I think it's, it is all about, you know, looking at the bigger picture and not being in the moment. And I know this is all easier said than done. I mean, I don't have a child yet, so I obviously can't necessarily relate in that sense to, to the emotional attachment that you have.
00:18:40
Speaker
But I guess just generally to try to keep the, the, the, the The bigger picture and a general positive mindset is the way forward in these things, especially when you're figuring it out and you don't know. I guess it's easier with a second child when you then have gone through it once all and, um you know, you kind of know how it all goes and how it can end up.
00:19:01
Speaker
But I think the first child is... is really like where you also learn to be a mother or a father for the first time, right? Like you're maybe, I don't know how old you were when you, when you first became a mom, but you can be 40, become a mom, but then you're still, if your child is one year, you're still one year old so as being a mother, yeah you know?
00:19:20
Speaker
And I think people also forget that a lot. So yeah. Yeah. And that's another, you know, you've hit on another interesting
Challenges with Multiple Children
00:19:28
Speaker
point. So I've only got one child. Again, parents with two, then then they hit this this new thing where one's school, one's at nursery, you've got to get to work. It's really hard.
00:19:42
Speaker
It's really hard. yeah So for me, it's approach, ah try and approach it. when you're not emotional, when you're in a rational frame of mind where and and get your notepad out and be like, right, these are the fix these are the fixed things we need to do.
00:19:58
Speaker
They need to get there, needs to get there, and I need to get there. And then, okay, option A is da-da-da. And approach things quite pragmatically because yeah what I see a lot with my friends and and, you know, some people in my family is they get very wedded to...
00:20:17
Speaker
I only want to do this. I want to do the office on these days. I don't want to do this, blah, blah, blah. And you think you if you're going to be that rigid, it's going to be hard to to to feel happy with whatever solution you come up with. Some things are fixed. If your employer is saying you have to be in the office X amount of days a week, again, so that's one of your fixed, we have you know, we have to work around this, but where can I be flexible yeah Is there a conversation I can have with my boss where I just can't do that, but what i can offer is this and, you know, a reasonable approach.
00:20:56
Speaker
yeah You just have to really try and get creative in how how can we make how can we fit everything in that we need to do, basically. Yeah. Yeah, totally agree. And how would you say, like, how much of a role does your workplace play here?
00:21:12
Speaker
Like, obviously, there's so much that you can control and plan and and do. But then as you just said, obviously, you have to be kind of flexible, but then also kind of have the agreement. So how would you say plays that role?
00:21:24
Speaker
It's a really good question. And I've, I've been very lucky on this one. So when I originally went back, it was 2019. ah So it was before pre BC, it was before COVID.
00:21:38
Speaker
and And it was in the office every day. And and and and no one ever really knew any different that that was what was. So I've almost had the luxury of the hardest, the hardest part.
00:21:56
Speaker
I only had to do that for like a year. And then I think we went into lockdown. and Then we were all working remotely. and which had its challenges. Now we're at a position where we are encouraged.
00:22:10
Speaker
um i mean, um I work in a different company now um and I'm in London, so it is far more of a commute. and So it's, you know, right, you need to try and get into London two, three days a week.
00:22:23
Speaker
It's not my, you know, it's not the easiest thing. I'm not going to lie. it's It has its challenges. It has a cost attached to it in the, okay, I need a child minder.
00:22:34
Speaker
I don't currently have a child minder. I've managed to manage just through being flexible. But the workplace, it does play play a huge part because you need to be reasonable on both sides.
00:22:49
Speaker
yeah So if you're not saying you should be grateful, but if like me, you have a boss who gets it, she's been there, she's got two kids, she knows she knows what it's like.
00:23:01
Speaker
She gives me a lot of flexibility, but I have to be absolutely respectful and responsible with that. Because if you start taking the mick, people might go, well, you know, so...
00:23:14
Speaker
You need to be, it's just give and take. It really is give and take. And for employers, the loyalty that you get back when you are, again, being reasonable, whether it's that you've got working parents working for you, you've got people who are also caring for an elderly or a sick parent, dog, whatever it is, the loyalty that you get back as an employer it' So it's all give and take. So i have been very lucky in that area, I have to say.
00:23:48
Speaker
yeah That's really great. For sure. I 100 million percent agree. I think it's definitely a given and to take. ah First of all, it can hit anyone, right? um I think it doesn't matter what your position is. You can be hit by life in any kind of way. yeah And you should always try to understand the the other person, you know, from that humanity
Mutual Respect in Workplace Flexibility
00:24:10
Speaker
side. But then at the same time, if someone then gives you that trust and gives it a flexibility, you also have to make sure that you don't use that and you know you you showcase your appreciation and and um your gratitude by giving back with you know the the the skills and the the the yeah the trust that you've been offered you know kind of back.
00:24:34
Speaker
I think that's that's so crucial for people to understand that there has to be a balance and if you want certain things that you have to also give certain things and Yeah.
00:24:45
Speaker
And then this is how we can move forward, I think, in a very crazy time where, you know, yeah it has to happen that both sides have to work, the woman and the man or, or you know, like both partners, doesn't matter, a woman, man, but both partners have to work if there's a child involved and them and there has to be some sort of a compromise from a company's perspective, but then also from the person, for sure. yeah I totally agree. Yeah.
00:25:15
Speaker
And I've seen it. I was thinking about this as I was commuting in this morning, actually, because I and i was thinking, God, I have worked with some with women who, before they've had children, have been merciless on working parents.
Empathy and Understanding at Work
00:25:32
Speaker
So, you know, i used to work with a lady who she had zero tolerance for anybody saying, you know, I, I'm really sorry. I need, you know, I'm going to have to leave. I've had a call from the school and my daughter's banged her head and I've got to take it away or whatever.
00:25:49
Speaker
And we, you know, if you're someone who every other day there's a problem, this is what I mean about being responsible with any ability because some people will just make these things up, quite frankly, they go home. And it's and it's you you know when people are doing that and when it's been... I've worked with women who have been totally unforgiving, but then the minute they've had a child themselves...
00:26:12
Speaker
everything changed yeah Everything changes. Everything changes. And that's what I mean where you just think on both sides, be responsible and respectful with the flexibility, but also be be compassionate and understanding because like you say, whether it's having a child, whether it's, you know, anything can happen.
00:26:33
Speaker
Just be, but if if the person is delivering good work, Just back off, like no like let them do it in a way that works. If the productivity is there, then who who really cares how it's getting done? It's getting done. Don't on both sides. Just just be respectful is what I think people need to do more of.
00:26:57
Speaker
I mean, that's a very good point. i think there's, this is a topic in itself, actually, with the whole flexibility thing.
Practical Advice for Working Parents
00:27:03
Speaker
But I just want to say one more thing. I remember I worked once with m a very lovely person and she had a, um,
00:27:14
Speaker
not a newborn, but he was, i think one or like one and a half. So he was still and quite small. And she, obviously we we were fully flexible and she was saying like, you know, I can't do much during the day because I'm taking care of my child, but I'm very productive and I do exactly the same work from the afternoon to the evening when my husband comes back and, you know, he looks after the child and I can just go into the office and just do my whole work.
00:27:39
Speaker
So I think also the times sometimes are flexible, right? This whole nine to five kind of situation has to sometimes be put upside down because, If you show that flexibility and that trust, then you can still get the same out of of someone who is caring for someone, m but just on their terms, you know, if they really do still deliver the quality and the work. So yeah.
00:28:02
Speaker
i I think again, it goes both ways. Well, thank you so much um for your input and um yeah your story. find it quite um inspiring actually, all the things that you told me that you did and um how you handled it. And I think it's very inspiring to also have that kind of a strong mindset.
00:28:22
Speaker
So I'm pretty sure it's going to be inspiring to a lot of other people too. m I would have one more question. And that is, what would you say is your top three tips to someone who is maybe becoming a mom and worrying about that or is now just about to go back to work?
00:28:42
Speaker
um What would be your three top tips? Yeah. So, so Hopefully I'm not repeating myself, but ah re yeah a recap on what we've said, I guess. So look for the positives.
00:28:57
Speaker
Always look for the positives. so i think I think there's like a Buddhist saying that happiness comes from accepting. So accept if you have to go back to work because financially or whatever reason you have to go back to work, try and find some some stuff in there that's positive because...
00:29:17
Speaker
You're just going to have a far easier time if you're like, you know what, I'd rather be at home with my kid, but by going to work, I can A, B, C, D. So think about positives.
00:29:29
Speaker
ah It would definitely be get the facts. So, okay, I'm a couple of months from going back to work. what What days do I need? what What can I do? What can't I do? and And really make that list of what's movable and what's fixed so that can then build your plan around that, not just expect to sort of go back day one unorganized and and just be in total whirlwind. and So that would be the second one
00:30:01
Speaker
huh And then my third one would be, and from a practical point of view, Don't leave things to the last minute in in all aspects. So if you're going to need a nursery, get on it as early as possible because when you when you're asking people, can i need um I need to start nursery in a month, you're going to have trouble. There's wait time. So be organized.
00:30:25
Speaker
Even down to don't pack the bag in the morning. get home from work have your dinner and then just spend 15 minutes pack it just have everything ready because then in the morning you can get up you can get ready you can leave the house there's not all this chaos unfolding with you know three people trying to get out the house at once yeah you just be organized and if that means you need to get out of bed 40 minutes before everyone else Once you're up, you're up.
00:30:54
Speaker
and and they there's There's something really quite magical about that little bit of time when the sun's coming up and no one else is around. but And set yourself up for a day of just being nice and calm.
00:31:06
Speaker
So be organized. Look for the positives. And can't remember what i said on the second one. and know and And get the facts, no?
00:31:18
Speaker
Get the facts. Great. Thank you so much for your time, Laura. and I really appreciate all your input and yeah all the best to you. Thank you so much.