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#107 - Ozlem Yavuz | Leading through uncertainty
106 Plays27 days ago
Shownotes
00:00 - Intro & Context
07:31 - Transparency in Uncertain Times: How Much Is Enough?
15:21 - Emotions vs. Messaging: Challenges in Leadership Communication
24:51 - Flexibility as the Key: Navigating Change Successfully
Links
Guest Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/ozlem-yavuz-0b207254/
Thomas Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/thomas-kohler-pplwise/
Thomas e-mail: thomas@pplwise.com
pplwise: https://pplwise.com/
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Transcript
Introduction of Muslim Yavuz and Leading through Uncertainty
00:00:00
Speaker
Today's guest, Muslim Yavuz, and we talked about leading through uncertainty.
00:00:07
Speaker
Start with
Handling Change: Key Takeaways from Muslim Yavuz
00:00:08
Speaker
yourself. Firstly, how you are reacting to change and how you can flex your approach, how you can help your mind open. ah Second thing is, yes, you may not influence everything, you may not have everything under control, but you can always influence your direct environment. Just create those happy items around you ah and to really help people to go through that change, still with a positive mind and with an open mind. um And the third thing is,
00:00:38
Speaker
Starting with the individual and personal level, but then you need to build the resilience at organizational level. You need to ensure the transparency at organizational level, the flexibility at team level, organizational level. Always remember that you have those different layers and you have the chance to influence yourself, people around you, but then also across the organization as well. So those were the three takeaways from my own experience and hopefully it will help.
Transparency During Change: How Much to Share?
00:01:07
Speaker
What about transparency in change? Because um I think what is always a case that people not feel really confident or are maybe a bit of afraid of what's coming because they don't know what to expect. And this could then also influence, as you said, maybe not just them personally, but also the people around them. Could it be, it could be family, it could be team members, right? So there are um all sorts of things to partner. um But with the transparency question, I think it's always the case at what level and also what type of change, where is it too much? And also,
00:01:50
Speaker
how close do you want to be with people and how much you want to share, right? So this is maybe something that is also interesting. What is your take on that?
Balancing Transparency: Finding the Right Amount
00:01:58
Speaker
Yeah, it's a very interesting question actually, because a multi-change communication is a very, very critical dimension. And it's another learning that if you really see good and bad examples, what works well for you, how do people respond to certain situations? And transparency, there is no recipe.
00:02:20
Speaker
i Of course, I want transparency. I believe during uncertainty all leaders have to be transparent. But how much transparency do you really need to tell yourself? Sometimes we share too much information and this may backfire people. People may get nervous about that if you can't explain the details behind that or if you can answer the question. So transparency is okay.
00:02:44
Speaker
But you really need to find the right level of transparency in each and every situation. And I try to ask myself, is this information really useful for the people? Is this the final information? Is it okay that I share it? Or is it an interim information? And maybe it will only increase the nervousness of the people. Is it really clear enough? And can I also, with that transparency I create, can I also, am I setting the right expectation with you?
00:03:14
Speaker
And I think it's so important to observe the reactions of people when you are being transparent.
The Timing of Transparency: Avoiding Misinformation
00:03:20
Speaker
Sometimes when you are giving a bad message and how it is landing with people and how you are still keeping a positivity in it or how you can support them, how Victor gets around or how we work with that bad news and what does it mean for them. so And the timing is also important. Sometimes you can be too early ah to transparent with people But it may, again, create nervousness. In other situations, you might be too late when there is already too much noise around ah them and people already hear or they even read sometimes yeah um in the press that's happening. And then you might be too late. So really, in every situation, you need to judge it.
00:04:03
Speaker
That's a good example. So I think being too late means when information that is impactful to an employee like, OK, the company is, I don't know, doing layoffs or has a strategic exchange or it just got funding or just got acquired. um If this is coming through the news and then the people know, hey, what's going on and don't hear this upfront from the company officially in an internal old hands, for instance, I think that's a problem. But what could be maybe an example of where um transparent company communication could be too early. Do you have some ideas?
00:04:37
Speaker
yeah I think sometimes you share the plans too early and ah at the end this is creating expectations with people people and and companies or organizations or business units. It doesn't have to be always at the very strategic level.
00:04:56
Speaker
You set the wrong expectation and things may go when you were planning to go to left, things may turn to right. And when you already set the expectation, we will go to the left, then change, you think it, then again, getting divided enough to people and you may frustrate people in that
Effective Communication: Clarity and Timing in Decisions
00:05:14
Speaker
way. So it's for me or my experience, what I have seen is When things become more clear, then it is better to share only after the inter interim steps are not always useful. I know people get curious and I know people get also nervous when there is this radio silence around them. So it's important to give in between information, ah but not too much assumptions in it. I think when the clarity is there and when the decision is made, it is much more safer to really share a concrete information. I would be super curious on how you um ah structure what to share when with maybe managers and employees at your complexity level, because um you're responsible for around 70 countries, right? Plus
Communication Frameworks and Adaptability
00:06:05
Speaker
um thousands of employees and probably hundreds to maybe thousands of managers. So um do you have a framework, a communication framework?
00:06:16
Speaker
um on how you communicate changes?
00:06:22
Speaker
We do have a communication framework, we have a communication team as well, and obviously depending on the level of the decision or the content of the decision, different people are being involved. um But usually there are times where I am one of the decision makers and There is a different communication plan and different engagement from my side, but there are also decisions made by the top management, but by the board of directors, then you are a messenger of that communication. So it really depends on a what is your role exactly in that. But every day we need to share certain information with our people. And usually and what I am also experiencing it's nowadays, it's not just us. It's all around many companies also.
00:07:09
Speaker
in the market, the changes are so fast that you don't have too much time to really think through a lot. You really need to act in a very fast way, but still in a very careful and sensible way and how you are communicating the message. So it's really, I would say it depends on the situation, it depends on the topic ah and It depends on the also content that you have to prepare. But again, you need to be ready also to communicate and to plan the communication in a very quick way. During
Quick Decision-Making and Crisis Communication
00:07:43
Speaker
COVID times, maybe I can give you an example. we have We were taking the decisions at six, seven o'clock in the morning. I think all companies experienced that. And then we had to communicate it to don the employees already around nine, maybe.
00:07:56
Speaker
beat short time work at that time, be it a change in the current situation and so on. Sometimes you don't really have time to think through too much and you have to adapt in a very fast way. Does that answer your question? Yes, and um I think this is also the next question, emotions.
Handling Emotions in Communication
00:08:15
Speaker
So when you are maybe the translator or the the messenger of a message and you maybe personally don't even feel confident with what needs to be communicated, but your role requires to communicate it, for instance, right? Or or a receiver like in in in your team or so on does not really um receive a message well, but it hass it but you then also need to
00:08:42
Speaker
make sure that they also communicate the message further in a certain way and not in their personal opinion way. So how do you manage the conflict of emotions versus and messaging and in management? Because I think this is especially in bigger organizations with different incentives, with different implications of changes, a really big challenge. It is a challenge and we are all human beings.
00:09:09
Speaker
It doesn't matter if you are just a graduate, first job. It doesn doesn't matter if you are 20, 30, 40 years of experience, senior leader, top manager in the organization. I think we first need to remember we are all human and each and every individual is impacted with these challenges. And sometimes we try to be, or to ignore our emotions, how we respond to certain situations. I think this is among the biggest mistakes that again, each level of the organization doesn't matter what is your role. You need to first reflect about yourself. You are right. Sometimes there are decisions which you you don't understand why is that decision taken or your reaction might be, you might be frustrated with certain aspects of the decision. What I have experienced is first you need to understand why that decision is taken. and Because there are certain situations where I hear an information, I don't like it.
00:10:07
Speaker
and but then I try to find a bit more information around it then I can understand it. When I understand why that decision has taken, then it's also easier for me to spread that information in the organization. So that's for me the first step, rather than reacting negatively or two poses different could be both ways. First, you need to really get a bit more insight and understand the full picture and the context of that decision. it And then what are the implications of this decision?
00:10:39
Speaker
and dealing with only emotions. Yes, there are times you need to digest a certain decision. And I also suppose that you take some time yourself ah to digest that information, to reflect yourself, to have a better understanding about the full picture, and it is better to communicate that. Again, this may What I am saying is it may sound like we know sometimes already this is only a 10 minutes that you need to do that reflection, calm down yourself and share that information. But sometimes it may take a bit more days to you are comfortable also face. And for leaders, we need to be authentic. And yes, human beings are vulnerable, we can all be vulnerable. But I think the leaders still need to keep that
00:11:25
Speaker
realistic positivism or realism or whatever you would call it because it's always important that ah you can't destroy the mood of your organization. You need to make sure that this is it but what are the consequences and how we are going to overcome with it and that includes also your emotions and the emotions around it.
00:11:49
Speaker
yeah It definitely makes sense. um I think what what is but I want to highlight, what you said is that, OK, there is the message. But the most important thing, I think, is what is the implication of the message. And maybe in the messaging, um this is already included if it's well communicated and structured. But I think um one overall message has so many different implications, and depending on the audience, the implications are different. So I think part of a very good communication is managing what is actually the implication of the change, and then also translating the overall messaging into these small sub-messages that really um are understood and relevant to the perceiving audience. yeah For instance, if there are is a reorganization or a
00:12:46
Speaker
um and an acquisition plan of a company or a product, then it has different implications for a product, for instance, to integrate it or also for sales. um okay Do we now sell that? What is the commission model? what is um um um what What are the targets and so on? right um who do we structure How do we structure it on existing versus new business? what What's the territory, for instance? I think there are so many things um that need to be considered of big changes. um And I think a stable um
00:13:17
Speaker
messaging their messaging um is crucial there.
Flexibility in Organizational Changes
00:13:20
Speaker
um So and how flexible um should you be during changes? um For instance, when the leadership team changes in a large organization, um how flexible do you need to be with reorganizations?
00:13:41
Speaker
um How much ambiguity do you want to give in certain changes and and how close do you want to manage changes? so Do you have a framework for that or or some insights?
00:13:54
Speaker
ah before that maybe your Your point around the communication and tailoring it according to the audience, I think that's a very important one. And if you don't mind, I would love to start with that one because yes usually ah when there is a change, there there are also like you said, communication packages that you receive. um And or I mean, there is also public information. Sometimes the information might be too technical, sometimes it might be too high level, and depending on whom you're talking, you need to adjust and tailor that information. And what is exactly you need to always ask yourself what is relevant.
00:14:29
Speaker
and and I hear a lot that there cannot be too much communication and you are usually recommended to communicate more often and regularly. Yes, that's true, but I think you can also overwhelm people with too much communication. Sometimes you can also overwhelm people because you need to make the judgment, like you said, ah Is it really, if I'm talking to a sales population, is it really relevant for the sales organization on which parts of this information is relevant for that ah organization and how can they use that information? You really need to make that judgment because sometimes you talk to people like gay it might be very technical information and you see in the eyes of people, they started to get confused. They cannot really work all of you because it is not
00:15:15
Speaker
necessarily in impacting their day-to-day life in their business as usual. And the content of the communication might be already also too far away from their own reality. um I think it's very important to make that judgment and to make that filtering and customization according to the audience. And also, again, observing the people carefully so that you can adapt even through the conversation ah maybe certain messages are formulated in a different way and always dream leave room for questions because you need to check and verify if people also understand your messages. I think that's also quite an important one. So thank you for touch basing also that topic. I think it's very important. and and Definitely. Yes, and on the flexibility and side, how much ambiguity within change do you want to let happen or foster and how much do you want to prevent?
Adaptation to Change and Influencing Culture
00:16:12
Speaker
I think a being flexible with change helps you a lot. If you are very robust in your ideas, if you don't want to change your mindset, you are impacted in a bad way usually because you have this tendency.
00:16:31
Speaker
sometimes i'm just yeah You put some barriers to really understand the information that has been shared. i always I can understand at the beginning if there is a message which doesn't fit what you were expecting, which doesn't fit your view, you need some time. There is the normal change process. People first reject actually, but then within time you accept that. And when you come to a change with an open mind, with a flexible mindset, I think there is more potential that you can accept it quicker and then you can also adapt in a quick way.
00:17:09
Speaker
ah And usually when I look back to my 20, 25 years, there were the changes that I have come through myself as my individual next or career-only role. There were certain situations I wasn't too happy with what I have been offered or what I was taking over everyone or a project that I have been involved.
00:17:31
Speaker
But looking back, sometimes after two years, sometimes after two months, you realize that why you have been there actually. You see the benefits sometimes later. So that's why I think sometimes having that belief that things will sort itself and you will see the benefits of that change and why it has happened after many years ago, could be, or after some days, you will already realize. ah So flexibility in that sense, I think it is super required and also the teams are observing their managers, observing their leaders. And if they see you are flexible and you are relaxed with what is coming, it has a domino impact, a positive domino impact. If they see that you are register resisting with what is coming, then I think you are already building collective resistance towards the change. And if you start already with a positive with an open mindset,
00:18:28
Speaker
And this has also the dominant impact within the organization and within the people, within the teams around you. So this is really cool. Yeah, thanks.
Final Advice on Leading through Change
00:18:38
Speaker
um is Um, do you have any final words, um, on learnings, um, when leading through change? Just to make this on the topic and start with yourself.
00:18:49
Speaker
Firstly, how you are reacting to change and how you can flex your report, how you can end your mind open. Second thing is, yes, you may not influence everything, you may not have everything under control, but you can always influence your direct environment. Just create those happy items around you and and to really help people to go through that change, still with a positive mind and with an open mind. um And the third thing is,
00:19:18
Speaker
Starting with the individual and personal level, but then you need to build the resilience at organizational level. You need to ensure the transparency at organizational level, the flexibility at team level, organizational level. Always remember that you have those different layers and you have the chance to influence yourself, people around you, but then also across your organization as well. So those were the three takeaways from my own experience and hopefully it'll help.
00:19:48
Speaker
leave so yeah Yes, thank you. Thank you.