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#114 - Alexander Oldewage | Talent Acquisition Lead at HiveMQ
28 Plays5 days ago
Alex is an experienced leader in Talent Acquisition and has worked in the field of Recruitment for more than 12 years, working for both agencies and tech product companies in South Africa and Germany. He has recruited internationally in EMEA and North America, predominantly focusing on Product and Engineering Recruitment.
In his current role, Alex is the Lead Talent Acquisition Manager at HiveMQ, a startup whose product is focused on Industrial IoT connectivity. Some of his past employers include Successful Berlin based startups such as Klarna and Adjust.
Shownotes
00:00 - Intro & Context
06:57 - Challenges in Talent Acquisition
12:23 - The Importance of Retention in Hiring
21:47 - Fighting for Candidates
Links
Guest Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/alexander-oldewage-08b74674/
Yeliz Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/yeliz-castillo/
Yeliz e-mail: yeliz.castillo@pplwise.com
pplwise: https://pplwise.com/
Recommended
Transcript
The Candidate Experience Beyond Recruiter Screens
00:00:07
Speaker
I'm specifically going to focus on candidate experience and um so and I'm going to exclude the part where actually TA speaks to the candidates directly because that's an obvious influence on candidate experience in the in the recruiter screen. But um actually for the majority of the recruitment process, ah candidates actually deal with other stakeholders as outside of TA such as the hiring managers and towards the end end of the process usually with ah human resources.
Introducing Alexander Olderwaage: Expertise in Startups
00:00:35
Speaker
Hello, everyone. Today i am with Alexander Olderwaage, who has worked in different startups like Klana and Adjust and currently is the lead talent acquisition manager at HypeMQ.
00:00:51
Speaker
And I'm really excited to have you here today. So we will be diving into the m behind the scenes of the TA world and I can't wait to hear your intake on this.
Understanding TA Functions' Impact on Candidates
00:01:04
Speaker
But my first question as always is, why do you think it's important for people to know what happens behind the scenes? Well, firstly, thanks thanks a lot for having me today. And yeah, thanks for introducing the topic. And um yeah, this is just something that I think is important to speak about because um there's a lot of, I mean, I don't think a lot of candidates actually know what TA actually does. And there's probably people working in companies that don't actually know what TA does. So um I think it might give some insight to people what TA actually does. um Also, I think if you're
00:01:41
Speaker
New in talent acquisition, you might learn trick or two of how you can influence certain things. But is sometimes seen as just kind of a function that pushes CD through.
00:01:52
Speaker
meat So I think it's just interesting to speak about what we actually do. Yeah, totally. i think even when when I first started, I literally had no idea what to expect of the job and also like how much happens, you know, like obviously we all have applied to roles and, you know, especially when, before working in TA, at least I did.
00:02:14
Speaker
And, um, Yeah, like once I started, there was so much that I had no idea about how crucial
TA's Relationship with Hiring Managers: A Key Influence
00:02:20
Speaker
those things were. So what do you think are like the main parts that TA has an influence on the candidate experience?
00:02:31
Speaker
um Yeah, so I'm specifically going to focus on candidate experience and um so and I'm going to exclude the part where actually TA speaks to the candidates directly because that's an obvious influence on candidate experience in the in the recruiter screen. But um actually for the majority of the recruitment process, ah candidates actually deal with other stakeholders as outside of TA, such as the hiring managers and towards the end end of the process, usually with ah human resources. So
Training & SLAs for Hiring Managers: Enhancing Feedback
00:02:58
Speaker
it's...
00:02:58
Speaker
um Yeah, I think basically um your relationship with hiring managers is is a very important part of how the interview process goes and how the candidate experience goes. And ah what I think is important to start with is doing at least basic training for hiring managers.
00:03:18
Speaker
So I think in most of the companies, but In most of the companies that I worked for, there was at least a basic training that hiring managers had to do. And usually TA either hosted this or were heavily involved in this.
00:03:30
Speaker
um So that's already a good start. um Setting SLAs around feedback because a lot of reasons for bad candidate experiences is not big big enough with feedback, taking too long to get back to candidates.
00:03:43
Speaker
ah So things like setting SRAs with hiring managers are things that also come to mind. um I also think that also clarifying feedback with hiring managers because sometimes hiring managers give feedback that's not really that constructive or, you know, you can't ideally, i mean, what I will start by saying is these days TA gets so many applicants at early stages. So it's impossible to give very specific feedback at application stage or even at recruiter screen stage. But if a candidate at least spoke to hiring manager or did any sort of task or invested any time, um I think it's really important to also push back on hiring managers and and get more specific feedback and and share this with candidates.
00:04:26
Speaker
um So these are a few of the just very basic things that
ATS & Tools: Streamlining Candidate Experience
00:04:31
Speaker
that we can do. um But beyond that, i think working in TA, um you have, I mean, if you're in TA leadership, at least you have ah some influence about the tools that you use. So just stuff like the ATS could have an impact on candidate experience. So, sorry, ATS is applicant tracking system for those people who's not working.
00:04:52
Speaker
Yeah. yeah Talent acquisition, things like making the first interview booking very simple, like using Calendly or anything simple to to book interviews. um What we recently started using here is MetaView, which is kind of a note taker.
00:05:09
Speaker
And it already just not typing while speaking to the candidate already, I think also increases the candidate experience. So yeah those are some of the... things um and then towards the end of the process I think the TA's relationship with HR is also very important so staying close to HR because most companies I work for HR usually send out the contracts or the offers towards the end once the candidate it passes the interview process and ah Also, similarly, in companies where I worked before, i said we set SLAs, we had an agreement, we try and send out offers within one day or ah we have some agreement in place to make sure that candidates don't wait and that the experience is smooth.
00:05:53
Speaker
And um yeah, other than that, I also think, um sorry, of one other thing that I forgot to mention is when even reaching out to candidates for the initial interviews, and making sure I helped
TA Challenges: Managing Stakeholders
00:06:05
Speaker
create a lot of brochures with information about the company and the interview process so that they know what to expect and that they know what is upcoming. and yeah I think just generally kind of um managing expectations plays a massive role in candidate experience.
00:06:21
Speaker
Yeah, just to just being transparent, really, right? Yeah. and When you were saying all of those different stakeholders, i just, you know, obviously it's my day-to-day, it's your day-to-day, but sometimes I think it's very easy to kind of overlook how many different stakeholders we actually have to deal with um and how we're constantly between, you know, either the candidate and the hiring manager or between HR and the hiring manager, right?
00:06:50
Speaker
or between, ah you know, the different candidates as well um or the different interviewers, because if you're like doing the full end-to-end, then obviously you're kind of touching and all those kinds of different points throughout the process.
00:07:06
Speaker
um So what would you say is like the biggest challenge that TAs face by trying to juggle all those different stakeholders?
00:07:19
Speaker
Yes, I'll start of by saying you have to deal with the candidate's partner sometimes as well. When it gets to offer stage, they often have to speak to their partners. I mean, I jokingly sometimes offer to speak to candidates' wives if they want to help to accept the offer.
00:07:34
Speaker
That's a good point actually. have to introduce that. Yeah. um But, yeah, so how ahll do juggle the different cycles? And, I mean, you have to have close relationships with, for me, hiring manager.
00:07:53
Speaker
have a call with hiring managers every week. If i if they are recruiting for role, I make sure I have a weekly catch-up.
Stakeholder Relationships & Managing Mistakes
00:08:00
Speaker
um And I think it's also important throughout the process to speak about candidate experience, ah to create the urgency, and keep reminding them you know,
00:08:10
Speaker
of the scarcity of candidates. I mean, we are in a market where a lot of people got laid off. So there's a lot of candidates in the market, but still really good candidates won't be on the market for very long. So um it's important to keep drilling this down. And yeah, um also hiring managers do make mistakes. TA also make mistakes. Like it's inevitable when and you work with TA, someone is going to make make a mistake somewhere.
00:08:34
Speaker
But then yeah, it's important to discuss this and kind of...
00:08:39
Speaker
in order to discover how we can improve on that if if we did something that led to a bad candidate experience. um yeah I also think and another thing that's not directly related to this question is um we often send out candidate surveys um and they're candidates often give feedback and if there are any trends of a lot of candidates having complaints about the specific hiring manager, then it's obviously important to address whatever was stated in the survey. So um yeah that's another thing that you can use to to help manage hiring managers.
00:09:18
Speaker
um But yeah, um the relationship with each hiring manager is quite individual. um Hiring managers are quite different from each other. So you have to be able to, I think, adapt and that then understand their point of view as well and their struggles as well. Because, um yeah, um obviously we want quick feedback. We want very in-depth feedback, but Our main job is recruitment hiring managers often have other full-time jobs and recruitment is obviously part of the job, but it's not always, um yeah they don't always have as much time as us to like write along long yeah school
00:09:55
Speaker
Yeah, I i like why you're saying all this, I'm obviously also kind of, you know, brainstorming in my head, like all my all the
Aligning TA Efforts with Hiring Goals
00:10:03
Speaker
experience I had. And I feel like for me, m one of the big, big challenges I have, you know, throughout different environments is I think the alignment also between talent and the hiring teams.
00:10:16
Speaker
And obviously this can be, you know, whether like this can be tech or this can be finance, this can be marketing, whatever area it is. But i think there is a actually, you know, ah like a common goal of both sides. Obviously, as you said, this isn't my full-time job or our full-time job, but it's just part of their job.
00:10:35
Speaker
And um sometimes it's difficult to kind of align on those because, you know, we have to be obviously on it to chase the feedback, to arrange the calls, to find the time and and then and and engage the candidate, engage, you know, the whole experience and then manage and coordinate the things.
00:10:52
Speaker
um And then obviously from from the hiring team It's the same thing, right? Like they have to invest their time and also make the time. and so i feel like for me, it's like this alignment, you know, that there is a need and we need to fill that need. And obviously that's my goal, but then also their goal because and they have to reach things within um their teams as well. And if they lack a skill, then they need to have that ASAP.
00:11:16
Speaker
m And then the second biggest challenge, I think for me is also the fact that, um, there is sometimes this issue between that like that that that them yeah the, the, not the impression, I don't know the word now, but the, the expectation almost of what, you know, should come out of hiring, you know, do we just hire, okay, because we need that skill and we, we, you know, want to fill or do we think long-term and then what do we do to keep
00:11:50
Speaker
not just, you know, not just to hire someone, but then also to keep that person after, right? And then they play so many things, a role that you, I think, have to think of of what ah what the salary package is what, you know, the the development, ah you know, plans are for this person and all of those, because you can hire and But then it's not just about that. It's also about keeping that person in the business, right?
00:12:12
Speaker
To reduce the cost, to to to to grow the business, to to reach the goals and so on. And obviously it kind of ties back to us then again, because if then someone drops out and there is a high nutrition rate, then you have to come back and, you know, work with TA again and so on. So for me, I think it's those two quite...
Hiring for Retention: Quality Over Quantity
00:12:30
Speaker
a big challenge what's your take on you know not just hiring but but keeping people also in the business from a ta perspective yeah so i mean i think on your first point um yeah i definitely agree you have to get buy-in from hiring managers and hiring is definitely like a team effort or team sport like if just da is very passionate about hiring but the hiring managers and the hiring team aren't on board then it's going to be very difficult so yeah you absolutely have to um have to basically have their support and buy in and everyone needs to be aligned. um
00:13:06
Speaker
And luckily for the most part, when hiring managers have open roles, it's usually because they kind of lack a skill. So um usually should be able to, I mean, if they're not motivated to hire, should kind of be able to establish ah yeah with them why why it is important. And it's basically at the end of the day to help them. And if you, if you,
00:13:25
Speaker
put it to them that way that we are actually hiring, we are actually doing, helping you here, trying to hire someone for team, usually you have the buy-in. and So yeah, I think that's a very good first point. And um secondly, in terms of the ah retention rate of candidates, so yeah, this is maybe something that I also thought about mentioning in my first answer, but I think it's yeah once towards the end of the process when you give them over to HR usually you don't want the candidate experience to end there you kind of want keep in usually you're an in-house recruiter you you work at the same company but um we get measured for instance on
00:14:05
Speaker
on quality of hire. And currently we're just looking at this as someone who causes their probation period, for instance, is is a good quality hire. And then um along the line, you also want to keep eye on ah basically performance reviews and how the candidate is doing within the company.
00:14:21
Speaker
um So yeah, basically the tenor of the candidates that you hire is is also important. That should be important to TAG. yeah So I think that second point can go two ways. You want to hire people that do well that we want to keep and we also need to have an environment that they want to stay in. And I think both of these things combined lead to longer stays within companies because, I mean, we can have fairly low turnover and a pretty good environment, but if the candidate doesn't have the technical skills, then it's also going to lead to high turnover. So, yeah, I think it's important to balance
00:14:58
Speaker
to have a good environment that good people want to work in and to make sure that you have a good process um so that you kind of identify and hire the good people. And let yeah I think those those two things combined will will lead to people staying longer. But um in general, I think DA should definitely have an eye on how the people that hire are performing.
00:15:18
Speaker
Yeah, I agree. I think it's also good feedback for yourself, right? And and I think it's also a way of kind of if you're obviously interested in getting better to kind of measure the quality that you bring in. Obviously you can never fully, m you know, know how someone performs because there's just so much time that we spend with someone in the beginning.
00:15:40
Speaker
It's difficult obviously to judge and and also you never know how people turn out and how they feel in that environment and all of that. But I do think that the quality of hire is ah really crucial thing data point that TA should look at.
00:15:56
Speaker
and In terms of, you know, we were talking about like how to retain, then also I think another big part of a TA's role is to win a candidate over. And I don't think that just only starts when, you know, there is an offer in a conversation, but really from the very first introduction or m ah conversation where you kind of start selling the company, you know, to to a
Winning Over Candidates: Honesty & Company Strengths
00:16:24
Speaker
candidate.
00:16:24
Speaker
And I'm not talking about like the salesy sale and, um you know, by and telling people the, you know, lies or or selling the company in the best possible way, because let's be honest, no company is perfect and there's always ups and downs um or good sides and bad sides.
00:16:41
Speaker
But what would you say is one of the things that you experienced that have has really helped you win candidates over um for the company that you work for, whether that was in the past or now.
00:16:56
Speaker
Yeah, so a very good question. And um I think this all starts with when I'm looking for a job myself. and So usually when I'm applying for jobs, I try and find jobs with at least the engineers. I'm usually doing tech recruitment.
00:17:12
Speaker
um I'm trying to find companies where it's attractive for engineers to work. So you want ideally you want to work for a company thats that people want to work for. um But yeah, so that's the beginning. But um like i said, from the first call,
00:17:27
Speaker
and You have to know what is good about the company. a question you often get is what do you like about working here? So be prepared to answer these types of questions. But um also, like you mentioned, don't sugarcoat everything everything and be honest when someone asks you what don't you like about working there.
00:17:44
Speaker
um the reality is if you have to lie about any of these things, they are going to find out very, very quickly and it's going to backfire massively. It's going to be all over Glassdoor and it's going be a disaster. So be honest is definitely a first thing.
00:17:58
Speaker
um Another thing is, again, DA usually speaks to the candidate quite early on. And they also speak to quite a few hiring managers throughou throughout the process. So if I identify a candidate that I think is really strong and we we should really hire, I already, before the hiring manager interviews, I would give them heads up saying like, this guy's really strong. So if you also have a really good feeling early on in the interview, really try and also kind of celebrate what what it would look like for them in the company, what their potential growth path is, and um try and already sell the company in the in the interviews. um
00:18:34
Speaker
yeah And um yeah another thing is then also to touch base with the candidates throughout the interview process. and And also ask them directly, like, what but do you think of us as an employer and how do we stack up against...
00:18:48
Speaker
the other companies interviewing for and just having a clear picture of what what's going on in their head because the reality is we we're not going to be able to win every single candidate. Sometimes they're all going to choose other companies over us, but at least having a clear picture, you can manage expectations internally of the hiring managers because you can if they know if they don't say you're in the top two or something, i can almost i'm I'm very confident in saying they're probably not going accept our offer. Yeah.
00:19:16
Speaker
At least you can start managing expectations of hiring managers early on then.
Transparency in Recruitment: Attracting Culture-Fit Candidates
00:19:20
Speaker
um But oftentimes you you get a very good feeling throughout the process if more selling is needed, where you stand with the candidate. And it all comes down to speaking with them, not just over email, but having a call and actually having a very clear conversation of their thoughts on you. And then also yeah selling, having as many touch points as possible,
00:19:41
Speaker
um i I don't want to say selling, but like kind of creating a picture of of what it might look like there and why it could be good for them. For sure. Like, I also think it it sometimes can be also like simple things, right? Like where they ask a question and you just don't know.
00:19:56
Speaker
And instead of making something up and coming up with lies, like what I usually do is also, I just say, I'm sorry, I really don't know. i don't want lie to you, you know? And, um and, and also, you know, figuring out afterwards or um yeah, just also being just very honest. Like I, you,
00:20:13
Speaker
yeah like 99% of people ask literally the same question as you said, like, how do you feel working there and how's the culture or whatever? And I always say it's really difficult to generalize this because it can be a good environment for me, but it can be a bad one for you.
00:20:28
Speaker
That I think is also ah bit... a given a take in terms of, okay, how much imp employmentt do do you involve yourself into the culture or how much do you want to be involved in it?
00:20:39
Speaker
um You know, so, and it can be a great one for you, but it can be a bad one for me, you know? So I feel like this is really hard to to judge for so for someone else. But I think there's always, like, it's always important to be just transparent, the things that you think that needs, you know, um like,
00:20:56
Speaker
have like an opportunity potential within the company, but then also the good things about ah place, because obviously we all, you know, have worked in places that were good or bad, but I'm sure there was always something good on it and also something like bad about it, you know?
00:21:13
Speaker
um So think just being transparent with people and just genuine sometimes can also lead to you know, kind of candidates going for you because they see like the authenticity.
00:21:26
Speaker
um And I think as a recruiter TA, that's the first door um to showcase that for sure. and i have one last question actually, um because you were saying on, you know, that you have to kind of give heads up to the um hiring managers, if a candidate is good and, or like if if they're not, so probably drop out and whatever.
Advocating for Strong Candidates Amid Doubts
00:21:49
Speaker
um How do you think is like, you know, the the but influence on us, well, our influence on the hiring managers in terms of challenging them for candidates? I think sometimes What gets a bit missed from a candidate perspective is how much we actually fight for some candidates, you know, where you see the potential and maybe the hiring manager doesn't because they haven't spoken to. So how do you see that kind of action? Well, if I haven't spoken to them, I would would highly encourage them to speak to them. and But I would then also kind of tell them beforehand, this is why I thought they were pretty good.
00:22:24
Speaker
But I think it's it's very important for and any good TA shooter fight for candidates and I've had many examples of this over the course of my TA career but basically i mean a classic example would be they have an interview panel four and maybe one says no and three says yes or two says yes and another maybe then you want to call them all together and kind of fight out like why why did you say no because other people said this and this and you often have cases where
00:22:58
Speaker
decisions aren't unanimous and usually TA is on the side of the candidate in my experience. um I've even had cases where someone got a no in a final, not at my current company, but before at another company I worked for.
00:23:12
Speaker
And um yeah, basically they got a no in the final, but throughout the process they got yeses and strong yeses. So yeah, what I did is you bring in the whole panel that said yes to kind of back you up here. Okay.
00:23:25
Speaker
I will say this, TA just on their own, you kind of can't just go in and fight the battle on your own, but you have to get the buy-in of also other people that spoke to the candidate that also thought that they were good and um you have to make a case for it.
00:23:38
Speaker
um i mean, sometimes it's just it's impossible to make a case if it's unanimously no across the board. There's just no battle to to be won there, but then and oftentimes there are battles that you can attempt to win and Some you win, some you lose, but you have to try. Yeah.
00:23:56
Speaker
yeah Okay, great. Thank you so much. um i really appreciate your insights here. I think it's very valuable to for people to understand, i guess, how much TA actually does and um yeah and what really happens.
00:24:12
Speaker
um
Top Tips for TAs: Relationship & Process Management
00:24:13
Speaker
Great. So what would be your top tip for TAs to be successful?
00:24:24
Speaker
in TA, like when it comes to the candidate experience point? um Yes. So, I mean, I'll mention maybe I can give maybe more than one, but I mean, firstly, I think it's important to establish SLAs or rough guidelines for between yourself and hiring managers on feedback, how long it should take. In my opinion, it should not take all the 24 hours to fill out the scorecard.
00:24:50
Speaker
um Secondly, ah make sure that you are streamlined, have your kickoff meeting, make sure the whole interview panel know know what they're doing and that you have that the buy-in of the hiring manager as well as the interview team.
00:25:04
Speaker
ye And lastly, have a good relationship with HR as well to make sure at the end of the process when offers need to be sent that things run smoothly. And I would say that's all my three top tips off the top of my head.
00:25:19
Speaker
Perfect. Thank you so much, Alexander, for being here and for sharing your time. And yeah, all the best to you. All right. Thanks for having me. Bye-bye. you welcome
00:25:33
Speaker
Bye.