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Chronic Contemplations - Stanford Prison Experiment
26 Plays9 days ago
#nonsensicalnetwork #chroniccontemplations #comedy #podcast #420
Good morning and welcome another AM show! Join Michael and Josh while they discuss the Stanford Prison Experiment.
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Transcript
Introduction and Personal Updates
00:00:16
Speaker
That is one short intro, but that's all right. Happy Thursday, everybody. You're back with us for another episode of Chronic Contemplations. Welcome, welcome one, welcome all. Today we're going to be talking with my fabulous co-host, Blaze, Josh. How you doing, Josh?
00:00:33
Speaker
I am good. I'm good. I'm a little tired. I am good, though. um And unfortunately, I am not high. Oh, that's a bummer.
Morning Routines and Health
00:00:44
Speaker
Well, you're to have to watch me do it while we're playing. Yes. Yeah. It's all contemplation. No chronic for me this morning.
00:00:53
Speaker
Not until after. I just, I didn't, I didn't make time for it yet this morning. I didn't want to be coughing my head off. So it's all right. so i Other than that, I'm fucking groovy.
00:01:05
Speaker
I'm groovy. I'm so bad. Better than that. How are you doing? yeah You don't have to go into details. We know.
00:01:16
Speaker
Yeah. For our audience, I am dealing with little physical pain. We're going to power through. We're going to be fine today. Going to be fine. Got my man girdle on and hold everything in place. We're good.
00:01:30
Speaker
I feel like I'm wearing Spanx. I feel creepy. I feel dirty. What are Spanx? Spanx, like, okay, so if you're a plus-size gal, but want to wear a minus-size item, you wear Spanx, and pulls it all in.
00:01:46
Speaker
Oh, and a girdle. and never knew I've never heard them called Spanx. Because Spanx aren't exactly a girdle. They're like long, stretchy pants, but they are like super sucking in. oh They do make stuff like that from me, too. It's the same effect. it again?
00:02:05
Speaker
so so They make stuff like that for men, too. There's like this like like girdle shirt you pull over. It's supposed to like make you look like a gym man. it's a Let's get a good one for Christmas.
00:02:19
Speaker
i don't know if they We should get it here the next day or two so he can have it when he goes to meet his woman. Look his best. It's just true. He will be doing that soon. Shaper love.
00:02:31
Speaker
There you go. Big country. Whoops. My bad. No, you got it. You're on you're on comments today, so i don't have to worry about stretching it. Actually, that would be helpful. Thanks for watching, Big Country.
Introduction to the Stanford Prison Experiment
00:02:42
Speaker
Today, we're going to talk about the Stanford Prison Experiment. If you've never heard of it, it's fantastic. like events so
00:02:56
Speaker
I try to look professional, but only thing I'm really professional at is being an idiot.
00:03:03
Speaker
I make it look easy.
00:03:07
Speaker
Stanford Prison Experiment took place two years before my birth. 1971! It's old but you know what? It is still relevant. to It's still talked about to this day, which is insane to think about.
00:03:20
Speaker
An experiment that is 54 years old. Still relevant in society. An experiment that had faulty methodo methodology.
00:03:31
Speaker
However, a lot was gleaned from it. But also, it was it was horrible for those for those people to go through that. Yes. In a dramatic way.
00:03:43
Speaker
I think. Even some of the guards still have like bad dreams about it. Oh, yeah. so They felt... Yeah, we're getting ahead of ourselves. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, I was just going to say, we might want explain what it is first. Yeah.
00:03:59
Speaker
The Stanford Prison Experiment was a two-week, 14 days, only supposed to be 14 days, an experiment where, oh, shit, I forgot the name of psychologist the psychologist. should have wrote that down in my notes. Do have Zambardi.
00:04:09
Speaker
Zambardi. Dr. Zambardi. And you got it right, dude. That was awesome. um so I was expecting to hear Zamboni.
00:04:18
Speaker
I'm somewhere in the back of my head. I'm telling myself not to say that. so But now that you said that, now I have to really focus on not saying anything. So Zamboni here, he he has his students.
00:04:33
Speaker
You said it. They paid $15 a day, which in 1971 was a nice little side job. Nice little two-week side hustle for $15 a day. Give yourself a nice fat bag. I want to caveat. So I watched the Nat documentary, and it it touched on it. It was $15 day.
00:04:51
Speaker
But what really enticed the people that joined was a lot of them were just starting college and they were broke bastards and they needed, the the the ad was you get three meals, a bed and a roof and you get $15 a day. And they're like, well, fuck, let's do it.
00:05:08
Speaker
So it was, it was enticing just, and they didn't think anything what the actual experiment was going to be initially. Yeah. Stanford, a West Coast school, but very, very expensive. They call it the Ivy League of the West Coast.
00:05:25
Speaker
Well, for 14 days, all these ah volunteers are split into groups. It was 24 total. twelve They started with 70 applicants, narrowed it down to 24 kids, 24 students split into half. So 12 were guards, 12 were prisoners.
00:05:45
Speaker
and they wanted to ah take an experiment on obedience and power, like obedience and power structures.
00:05:57
Speaker
I like to call it but ah i like to call it the slave slave master mentality. but that's And we'll get there. I'm going to go down. I'm going bring a little of you in this conversation later. so No worries. no fair fair warning.
00:06:15
Speaker
So the only rules they were given for the guards were you cannot hit any of the yeah any of the participants, cannot hit them, and you cannot put them into solitary confinement for more than one hour at a time.
00:06:30
Speaker
The only two caveats that they were given as guards, no hitting, no ah solitary for more than one hour at a time. And... Well, what I thought was brilliant about the film that I watched, I know I saw the James Caviezel one, but again, I think I saw the other one with Brody, but I'm only going to talk about Caviezel because that's what I recall.
00:06:50
Speaker
Now I remember who Caviezel is. Yeah, I'm not a big fan his. That's probably why I haven't watched that one. I just remember he's the dude that did Passion. He is. He also played Dr. Manhattan in The Watchmen.
00:07:02
Speaker
He did. he did. oh Okay, I can't be mad at that role, that was a decent play. Just because he played Christ doesn't make him a bad guy. No. We'll do the weeds. We're not going down the weeds.
00:07:16
Speaker
Thank you. I didn't have said that. ah But hey, when you're an actor, you you say yes to everything if you're smart. Anyway, let's go down the road of a total failed experiment.
00:07:31
Speaker
And what I loved about the doc, I'm sorry, the doc, the film I watched in 2015 about it was When they saw that the one kid loses his shit and bam hits a guy with a nightstick and all the other guards froze like, uh-oh, uh-oh, uh-oh, we're about to get busted, nothing happened.
00:07:49
Speaker
And then it went fucking nuts. yeah That was day two, by the way, that was on day two. They just kept, basically, okay, remember Albu Greybe?
00:08:01
Speaker
That happened here. They humiliated them. like The experiment was so realistic in the point where they even had the fake cops go and arrest the students out public, take them in, book them, and they strip-searched them just like a regular prison would.
00:08:22
Speaker
don't if you're aware of that. um Yeah. um i yeah When they went into the the prison slash mock jail, whatever want call it,
00:08:34
Speaker
There was three prison cells, from from what I remember. There was three prison cells, and then there was the hole in the guard's office or something like that. Of course, they had cameras set But at the when they put them in these prisons, they dehumanized these prisoners.
00:08:48
Speaker
They put pantyhose over their head to make them bald. and that Stocking caps. Yeah, stocking caps. Thank you. They put chains around their legs. Just one one ankle just just to have that effect that you're chained. It's like a, it's a, it's demoralizing, it's dehumanizing.
00:09:08
Speaker
Anyway, i had said, I think before we went
Parallels to Military Experiences
00:09:11
Speaker
start, press start, when I was watching that thing, cause it's been a while, like I've seen the movie years ago, but when I watch a movie, it doesn't really set in until I do the factual kind of background check on shit.
00:09:23
Speaker
And kind of hit me this morning when i was watching that documentary. And I, ah it made me, it made me remember basic training. in the military, the way they quote unquote dehumanized us to break, tear us down, to build us up is of course the mantra, but right that, that breaking down, however, mentally is dehumanizing.
00:09:44
Speaker
Like it just is. And some people I noticed in basic could not take it. Like um I had, there was a person in my flight that got, got, I won't say kicked out,
00:09:57
Speaker
but he never joined. He couldn't pass the first couple weeks. He almost wanted to kill it. I think he did attempt to kill himself. I didn't see it. It was it was dark and stuff. had a guy fucking go Had a guy go AWOL out the back door down the fucking... He just took off running. um like That kind of shit really puts a lot of stress on people's minds and it breaks them.
00:10:19
Speaker
I remember seeing stuff in basic people in their sleep. I know I'm going down my basic training memory right now, but I think the the being being grouped with other people and being hazed or humiliated and broken down um is a part of military culture.
00:10:40
Speaker
It fucking sucks, but it's a part of it. It fucks with our heads. I remember seeing people like dead asleep. I'm sitting there doing my night guard duty, doing like my walks, and there's this dude raised up, and sleep and and for cat ah tax dead asleep, dead asleep.
00:10:55
Speaker
It was the weirdest shit, the way mentally were effed in situations like that. Anyway, I just wanted to share that real quick. Yeah. but The point behind it is they want to take away everyone's individuality.
00:11:09
Speaker
you're now You're no longer an individual. You're now a group. That's why they want you all look the same, dress the same, be the same. You all have the same routine. It's othering. This is something i want to talk about with the experiment.
00:11:22
Speaker
They othered the the prisoners from the guards.
00:11:27
Speaker
And they humiliated the hell out of them constantly, i made them do jumping jacks, that's that another thing, just forced them to do.
00:11:37
Speaker
They did it to and sleep deprivation, just all sorts of tortures because they are prisoners and that they were not allowed to have names.
00:11:50
Speaker
They were only to be called by the numbers they were given. And just having that, again, you're just humanity stripped away, your individuality stripped away, you're now just a prisoner and that's your entire role.
00:12:02
Speaker
And I think that's a lot of the fault in the prison experiment. By assigning these titles, they come with role expectations and the guards were given mirrored sunglasses to wear at all times in front of the prisoners so they could have and allow them to feel anonymity for not being recognized.
00:12:20
Speaker
So many different things they did Dude, what you just said, they wore sunglasses because it made them feel invisible. like they like they Those glasses gave them power because they're not going to be identified when they do bad shit to people.
00:12:39
Speaker
What is ICE allowed to do right now and in America? Mask up. They don't identify. We don't know who they are. but we don't even they're they a lot of them are just deputized, untrained people.
00:12:51
Speaker
We know this by by the reports and shit. And they're allowed to do that. And it gives them this this this this power, this unchecked abusive power.
00:13:03
Speaker
face That's what they're doing, to crack down on people. It gives them that, yeah like you said, that anonymity. No one will recognize me if so I can do whatever I want to do. And there's no repercussions now because I'm above the law.
00:13:17
Speaker
Exactly. it puts It makes them feel above ah above the law, anyway.
Termination and Impact of the Stanford Experiment
00:13:24
Speaker
So that's my bare bones account of the way it went down. And how did it end, you might ask?
00:13:29
Speaker
Well, it was only 14 days long. How bad could it have really been? It was so bad, the prisoners revolted. So bad the prisoners revolted. Again, should have been shut down a day two when the first guard took to stick to somebody.
00:13:45
Speaker
And no one was watching in that moment. So it went unchecked and they got worse and worse and worse with their abuse of these kids. And they shut it down after six days, six days.
00:13:57
Speaker
It was gonna run for 14 days only. And it didn't last a week because these kids let that power dynamic go to their heads. The prisoners, I'm telling you what, man, the cries of these kids.
00:14:11
Speaker
You watched the documentary. So you saw real footage from the real experiment, yeah? So yeah, so like, if arrow It's a Nat Geo or National Geographic documentary. I got goosebumps just thinking about the cries of those kids. god i sorry At first, initially, like the prisoners were kind of laughing shit off. Like, oh, they can't it is cant do anything. is bla blah blah So they kind of took it in stride.
00:14:35
Speaker
There was this one guard in particular that they nicknamed John Wayne. I can't remember his real fucking name. But he was like, he he even says in the documentary that he he decided to take control because he knew it was an experiment and nothing was happening.
00:14:49
Speaker
So he's the one who initiated all the humiliating. And he even in the documentary, he says he got that from from when he was pledging a fraternity, all the hazing in it.
00:15:01
Speaker
humiliating and stuff. He's like, but to so boy this has no sense to it really. But when he's put in that position of power, it's like, now he understands the point is to humiliate, tear down. And he was okay with it.
00:15:14
Speaker
Even, even watching this guy decades later on this, give this interview, like in the back, it seems to me like he, he enjoyed it. And to this day, he still enjoyed it.
00:15:27
Speaker
And it's weird. It's weird. I got shit. We'll fuck people up for the rest of your lives. I know the guy you're talking about, and I watched an interview with him too. And he said, and I'm quoting here.
00:15:38
Speaker
So after the first day, nothing really was going on and I just decided, well, I'll start running my own little experiments. It was exactly what his quote is I decided to run my own little experiments after they came out together.
00:15:51
Speaker
One of his, one of his subject, well, one of the subjects subjects, ah confronted him about it He's like, man, what were you doing? Why were you being like that? The guy's like, listen, man, I was just running my own little experiments, too. Your own little experiments?
00:16:06
Speaker
What does that mean? I this guy at the end of the interview, the conversation, the guy's like, man, I hate you. I'll hate you forever, man. What's wrong with you? You're a bad human being. and I mean, there's just a bunch of hippie kids thinking, shit, man, I'm going to get done in two weeks be able to buy a big old bag of weed, you know?
00:16:23
Speaker
mean, it's California. It's in the 70s. Yeah. yeah that That was a thing in the documentary that was pointed out quite often, the heavy reviews. But um
00:16:37
Speaker
I don't know. this this Dr. Zambardi. At first, I know a PhD. I don't even know if he's still alive. don't know if he is. If he is, fuck that guy.
00:16:48
Speaker
like Seriously, fuck that guy. like but What he put those people through just for his own um go Because the methodology was horrible. Like you said, a quote unquote guard was just allowed to start doing his own experiments. Like where was the control in this? It was like- and keep they They sort of heard about what happened, but the prisoner stayed in line.
00:17:13
Speaker
So they said, screw it. Let's just keep it going and see what happens. Yeah. Oh man.
Legal and Societal Implications of Obedience
00:17:22
Speaker
But there was a, this experiment was cited. and in court cases in the future. i don't know if you're aware of that. No, I'm not, but I'm not surprised. I'm sure it's for like human behavioral testimony or whatnot. I can see that.
00:17:36
Speaker
Yeah. trio of military personnel went off a reservation and robbed a bank together. The commanding officer told the guys, you know, this is going to be our mission.
00:17:47
Speaker
And the way he posted it, the way he couched it to them, they were just following orders. Now, one of them ah used... Dr. Zambardi came and worked for him on his defense and used the princen Stanford Prison Experiment and that, you know, obedience mentality yeah to help him get one of the most lenient sentences in history.
00:18:09
Speaker
16 months for armed robbery of a bank. Holy fuck. Because he took orders from his commander. Years and years later, he admitted. he goes, look, man, if I'm being honest, I i knew it was we were really robbing a bank, but...
00:18:24
Speaker
but just I was just going along because that's what we did. We we did what we were supposed to do for each other. That's that so the other day. you know Again, when I was watching that documentary, things like that started coming to my mind. me remembering when I was in the military. like so this whole This whole i'm go call it slave master mentality, this whole obedience, disobedience structure of of hierarchical cool systems. I know I'm going off the fucking TV right now.
00:18:57
Speaker
It's okay. A lot of us, by default, are just followers or or authoritarian, I guess, in in a way. Not default. We're raised. but race Our society raises the authoritarian.
00:19:09
Speaker
Not the bad one. Authoritative is okay. no There's a difference. Yeah, we're not talking about like justified authority compared to non-justified authority.
00:19:20
Speaker
I'm talking about just authoritarian. In other words, psychologically, we more prone to just follow orders rather than come up with our own rules, basically. I do.
00:19:32
Speaker
And in in that in that in that experiment, it's kind of what that kind of shows, um especially with the prison guards, not the prisoners themselves, because the prisoners themselves, they have no power at all. They're just there.
00:19:48
Speaker
The Guards, however, have the power. And when you have power, you got nothing to do with it. You tend to do bad things, especially if it's there's a person that has um yeah not psychopathic or psychotic, but a ah ah lack of concern for other human beings.
00:20:12
Speaker
I guess lack of empathy, lack of empathy. Like that John Wayne guy, that John Wayne guy, unfortunately, not only was he put into position of power, but he was a person with that lacked empathy and put into position of power.
00:20:25
Speaker
Um, people in the future have said, you know how could you act that way? How could you treat other people that way? And his quote, I mean, that's a cop out in my opinion, but it's a quote. The guy says, look, man, I was an 18 year old boy.
00:20:39
Speaker
Not a lot 18 year old men have a lot of fucking care about others.
00:20:45
Speaker
A cop-out, but a lot of truth. i right I think it is a cop-out because that's bullshit. Because one of the reasons why I joined the military at such a young age, 18, 19, is because I thought of other people and their freedoms. And I wanted to protect them. I wanted to serve for that. yada, yada. yada Now, did I meet other 18-year-old, 19-year-olds that didn't give a shit about people?
00:21:11
Speaker
Abso-fucking-lutely. Were they put in positions of power that they would have done, that they did similar humiliating things to people? Abso-fucking-lutely. I witnessed it. I was part of it. like i was I was the receiving end.
00:21:23
Speaker
ah was the victim of some of this shit. And this why when I watched that documentary, kind of triggered me. Too much free thinking that wanted to get you back in line? No, well, they didn't. Yeah, no.
00:21:38
Speaker
It does. it You know, it does kind of have something to do with that. Like if they wanted you to think they'd give you an order to do so, son. Well, well, yeah, but it was it was really at the hand. It wasn't at the hands of like the upper upper supervisors.
00:21:52
Speaker
But like the lower ones, the ones directly over me and like my my peers, even though, you know, they're like they've been in like a year or so long or so. Technically, they outrank me by time.
00:22:03
Speaker
It's so weird, the hierarchical system. It's set up. It's the way the military, in my opinion today, is set up to allow you to use power. Like you can't sit there and say stop doing that.
00:22:16
Speaker
Because you'll end up getting in trouble. Like I defended myself and I still ended up getting in trouble. I didn't get in as much troubles as like, well, actually the person who actually initiated gotten less trouble compared to what he should have because they kept it in shop anyway. But my point being, um, some people, they lack empathy and they just, they don't, they don't care. they'll,
00:22:45
Speaker
take out their aggression. Let's say they were having a bad day that day and they're unempathetic and they have this position. They're in a position over someone and they're like, you know what?
00:22:57
Speaker
I'm just going to abuse my airman today because I'm pissed off and I get to do that. Yeah. Literally they get to do that. and And you, you as that young airman or that, that lower ranking person, technically you're taught that if anybody abuses the power, you can go do something.
00:23:15
Speaker
Not really. I mean, it's got to be like, it's got to be abuse of power to the point where somebody gets physically hurt or almost maimed or dead before anything will actually happen. If it's just like um a mental abuse or humiliation, that shit was wiped under the rug and nobody gave a shit.
00:23:34
Speaker
But that, that stuff too messes with people. Like just because you're not physically hurting someone, but you're humiliating them on a, on an emotional level or on a personal level in front of everybody is pretty fucked up. And I'm not, so okay. And I want to, I want to caveat something. I'm not sitting here. so I don't want to play the victim card.
00:23:55
Speaker
I too, also, as I earned rank and got, I too also became somebody that I know how to, I know how to be cool to people because I was taught to be cool. I know how to do It's not something I'm proud of.
00:24:09
Speaker
I'm embarrassed by some of the cruelty that I put on people in the past. Nothing physical. Nothing physical. But I got, I too got caught up in it. I too got caught up in the power structure.
00:24:21
Speaker
I was eventually given power. And just like that guy was saying, you know, I dealt with it as a victim. Now I get to deal with it as the perpetrator, you know, violence begets violence, I guess.
00:24:37
Speaker
So, but, and I, I know it does sound like a cop-out, but it was because I was young and impressionable, and you get caught up with the mob, and that that's the way that institution trains and and molds us to do. and we just accept it.
00:24:54
Speaker
Their traits fostered because they're good for soldiering. Yeah. yeah yeah it's but Can't be too empathic and kill your enemy. and see Yeah. And it's weird. It's weird that I'm glad that I didn't get totally right.
00:25:11
Speaker
I had moments of clarity, guess. You broke the mold out and freaked your mind. Well, here's what bothered me about, okay, I looked him up. His name's Dave Eshelman. I forgot it. Dave Eshelman, the John Wayne guard.
00:25:25
Speaker
Okay. He had seemingly zero guilt Zero growth from that day. He didn't seem embarrassed about how he acted.
00:25:36
Speaker
He didn't seem regretful at all about how he acted. He just used it. Well, that was my excuse. And that's how I rationalize it to this day. See, I did awful things as a young person. And like you, not proud of it.
00:25:47
Speaker
I feel bad about what I did to people. A guy like that, would see. I hope that's a normal brain and a normal thinking. I mean, I've grown as a person and realized, thank goodness I'm not that guy anymore because that's not a likable guy. I wouldn't want to be friends with that guy.
00:26:02
Speaker
How did I even have friends? i mean I'm a lucky human being. My wife, same thing. I don't belong in her life, but she sees something good in me, and i love the hell out her for that. She makes me realize I am worth loving.
00:26:15
Speaker
That's a beautiful thing. That was the impression I got when I watched him on the documentary. they Yeah, didn't care. yeah He did not care. And even to this day in his old age, he never grew from that.
00:26:27
Speaker
i He would be you would be somebody that would probably elbow to elbow with Hitler if he was a fucking Nazi. You know what I mean? That's where I can get behind. I know I went to the Nazi thing, but if you if you look at the people that would...
00:26:46
Speaker
that would just go along with what they did. You can see some parallels from the Stanford experiment and just the mindset of one's going with the herd. I'm just, you know, there's this leader and he's proclaimed himself leader and I just have to follow because I'm here.
00:27:04
Speaker
That's the rules. Gotta follow the rules.
Insights from a Blind Experiment
00:27:07
Speaker
Again, because we're taught not to make our own rules. and so We finally talked about the methodology. ah The biggest number one no-no.
00:27:15
Speaker
They shouldn't have assigned those roles and given them titles like that. ah guard has an already perceived way of acting or thinking or being.
00:27:27
Speaker
ah Prisoner has a perceived way of thinking acting or being what they are is to society and everything else I mean so many different factors that affect your own but line of thinking in the experiment or why a bad experiment They've redone the experiment. i don't know if you're aware but No, I'm not in call. They didn't use rolls and they never saw their opponents they set up a ah is the totally blind experiment
00:27:53
Speaker
I am familiar with what you're talking about. I didn't know that was a redo of the statement. but Go ahead and explain. The dark room puzzle game. The dark room puzzle game experiment. Okay. So there's there's another team out there.
00:28:04
Speaker
Your job is to finish your puzzle game before they finish theirs. But what we do is we give everybody ah access to a button. Everyone's got their own. It has multiple settings on it.
00:28:17
Speaker
how distracting and how loud the sound will be in the other person's room. You can't see them affected by it, but here's what it sounds like. And they played the sounds and stuff. The, uh, the experimenters themselves randomly every now and again would hit a level three disruptor on their group, but the other groups never never went three or lower.
00:28:37
Speaker
They were all ramping it up to 10. to just jam those other people and try to, you know, they said, listen, this is really loud. It's kind of painful to the ears and stuff, but it is very distracting. You want to win? They were just bam, bam, bam, bam. ba bam yeah Potentially deafening their opponents to win.
00:28:59
Speaker
These experiments, and I'm just, I'm just, thinking they look into human nature and the human nature is exactly what I expected to be. Awful. We're ah to the most violent species on this ah on this planet. We are. we are we are we i know I know we joke about the big, dumb animal energy, whatever.
00:29:23
Speaker
But honestly, we're all we all have that. We all have it. We all have it. It depends on our situation when it comes out. are Our ability to understand it and recognize it and tamper it down. But even ah even at that point, still going to come out soon.
00:29:40
Speaker
i um I remember when I was going through counseling and talking to my counselor, he would do you would do this. He would do quote unquote, an experiment during our our circle of of ah discussion.
00:29:53
Speaker
And he'd point to one person and go, give me your shoe. And that person, without asking a question, would take their shoe off and hand it to him. And he'd be like, why'd you do that?
00:30:03
Speaker
Because you asked him to. But did you have to? Well, I guess I didn't. Then why didn't you just tell me no? Because you asked me to. See what I mean? It's like, we're just, I have to please. right Take the orders.
00:30:17
Speaker
That's what, that's kind of what the whole thing was. Like by assigning this authority role to these other kids, students, and they know they're just students, you know, that's an experiment. They know that it's signed up as a volunteer. Will they just willingly do as told and behave as prisoners?
00:30:33
Speaker
Most of them will. There was one, there was a guy, Doug, he didn't go all the way through. They actually had to replace him with somebody. That was the guy they threw in the hole and broke. This Doug guy, he was an extrovert.
00:30:44
Speaker
Dude, you watch the documentary. That dude, I love that guy. That guy is just a happy-go-lucky guy. But it was because he his personality, because he was trying to, at first, make light of it.
00:30:57
Speaker
You know, he's playing along and he knows they're getting serious. So he was trying to like, protest, but in a humorous kind of ways, put the beds up against the doors like that.
00:31:08
Speaker
And then the guards got pissed off when they put the ah beds up against the doors. The guards took the beds. They took their clothes. They were naked. They chained Doug to to another person.
00:31:21
Speaker
And then they try to escape. and and And that's when Doug went in the hole and Doug cracked. And because of Doug's previous antics, the guards thought he was just fucking around. He was pounding on the door saying, let me out. I'm going, you know, when he's losing his shit. And they kind of just like, eh, whatever. He's just, it took them a while that they realized that he's not.
00:31:44
Speaker
He refused to eat. Yeah. Yeah. so ah Yeah. It was bad. And seeing this guy and hearing him now, I'm like, my God, he, he's better now.
00:31:58
Speaker
but I bet he went through a part of his life where he had a, like, that's some trauma or something. yeah we We all experience trauma differently. like What you might feel traumatic, I might not feel traumatic and reciprocal. It's kind of the way trauma works.
00:32:15
Speaker
And trauma isn't always ah bad thing. You can fall in love heavy. It's tra a experience, but a good one, if you ask me. um But my point being is,
00:32:28
Speaker
What was my point? I love you, man. You're not even high. I'm not even high. I know I was talking about... don't know.
00:32:40
Speaker
Talking about this, I just... look back on some of my... Yeah, I look back on some of my lived experiences and I can relate to some of that shit.
00:32:53
Speaker
Yeah. The dude was just broken. Like you said, they broke him. And yet they replaced him instead of confronting the potential problems here.
00:33:06
Speaker
Maybe shutting it down, rethinking it, relaunching it. Yeah, it's like go they set up these these two rules, and soon as those rules get broken, it's like, oh, well.
00:33:19
Speaker
But isn't that kind of what what's happened what happens in real society? It sure is.
Abuse of Power and Societal Consequences
00:33:25
Speaker
People overstep bounds and they're not held responsible and they just keep doing it. And then somebody else sees them do it and they do it And it's just, but before we know, it's this huge cornucopia of fuckery. And it's like, oh now we have to stop it because somebody's getting fucked.
00:33:41
Speaker
You had, like, you could have stopped that from this point. Well, you know, we didn't really, we didn't really, you know. It's like, ah. Anyway. If clicks up, clicks up in the ear and they don't do anything about it.
00:33:55
Speaker
So next time you punch him in the arm, they don't do anything about it. And I'm gonna trip him, you know, with all the books in his arms. Still nothing happens. They just keep ramping up the abuse because this person obviously doesn't mind it. And I like to hurt, but I like to lash out at people.
00:34:09
Speaker
That's my new target. So they say the best thing to do to bullies punch them right in the face. When bullies are allowed to grow up and be bullies, never challenged, never told no, they like tend to be become fascists.
00:34:23
Speaker
I know. I know I went there, but but seriously, when bullies at a young age don't ever get challenged, they tend to grow up and be wicked people. They continue doing the same thing because that's what's getting them through life.
00:34:37
Speaker
Yep. Yep. And it it hurts people and it hurts them in the long run. So here's a life hack for the whole audience and for you. ah The bigger the person,
00:34:49
Speaker
the less likely they are to know how to actually meet out violence because they're so used to their size being their intimidation factor. They never really learn how to use their fucking size in a fight. The bigger they are, the easier and harder they fall.
00:35:03
Speaker
Hmm. Go for the knees. Um, Just never. They've never had that. What's the last time a very big person has had fist fight? Probably years and years and years. If ever, they've always used that size to be the intimidation factor.
00:35:18
Speaker
He's so big. He'll hurt me. If he knows how to. Okay. So with that being said, they're not used to that. With that, with that being said, I'm sitting here thinking and Glick, Glick's listening. I'm going to, I'm going talk some shit about wrestling.
00:35:36
Speaker
The big show. The Big Show, which I know The Big Show like in real life. He's a cool dude from what understand. I'm not dogging him as a person. I like The Big Show. He's good but he's do person.
00:35:49
Speaker
but i don't watch but I want to watch The Big Show show. sorry when When he was in the ring, like he was just a slow, sluggish, big dude. that the only The only time he would win is if he got his hands on you and that was the If I was in real fight with him,
00:36:05
Speaker
if you if i was in a real fight with him I'm smaller and faster. could get a couple good jabs in and never get touched. and But if I did, i know I'm fucked.
00:36:18
Speaker
So anyway, I do agree. If a bear hugs your only move, I mean, there's ways out of that. Tickle their armpits. right Lick them up here.
00:36:31
Speaker
but theyre all on there Stick your tongue in your ear. That works. But the thing is, it just goes back to the quote I love to use, it and I know you know the quote. Absolute power does what's what.
00:36:43
Speaker
Absolutely. Crufts absolutely. And that's a very people thing. It's a people thing. This is why I don't i don't to like hierarchical structures. I like evil things.
00:36:57
Speaker
That's just because... That's who i am. People gonna people, and it's hard to have faith in somebody else. Like, I have... I have an altruistic view of things. I know what what would make things better, but I also know it's less than a 1% chance it'll ever come to that. We'll not get to Star Trek.
00:37:16
Speaker
We're not going to get to Star Trek because we're people. And people don't want to do Star Trek. They want to do boot to the throat. That's a people thing. People want to put boots on throats. I'm not one of those people.
00:37:29
Speaker
But we're so few. We're so few. i want to... yeah um I think i want to be optimistic and be like, man, we we collectively can get ourselves out of this funk over.
00:37:43
Speaker
and It's a time thing. i The Star Trek vision, like I think it's feasible. Not in my lifetime. Not in my grandkids' lifetime. Not in their grandkids' lifetime. Not in their grandkids' lifetime.
00:37:57
Speaker
yeah This is not going to do it i you know I was thinking about that one day. when When are we going to stop being humans and we transition to a new species?
00:38:09
Speaker
However, that has nothing to do with the Stanford. Was Duckerberg and Elon let loose the AI? We're just a stepping stone on AI's development, man. We got to just do it.
00:38:21
Speaker
but no Thanks. So happy you're here. I'm sure she's got plenty of smart things to say. ah ah Man, I'm glad she gives you shit.
00:38:35
Speaker
The only reason I give it back. yeah Yeah, guys, don't ah don't don't don't but don't think too much into that. You should you should hear these two offline. I'm the guard. She's the prisoner.
00:38:51
Speaker
Drop and give me push-ups. I noticed that was a big thing in the Stanford experiment, and that's what really made me think of basic training. is like Every time you do something somebody doesn't like, give me push-ups. Give me push-ups.
00:39:02
Speaker
I remember that shit in high school when I was going through ROTC. Like, in the middle of the day, like I was supposed to do push-ups if somebody outranked me in class told me to do push-ups. I told them to go eat my dick.
00:39:14
Speaker
I didn't say it like that. But I didn't participate like that in high school because I was like, I'll do that in class, but I'm not doing it outside of ROTC. That is bullshit. I never got in trouble for it. But I pissed people off because I wouldn't listen to
00:39:29
Speaker
You can't be individual. You can't be an individual. if you'll If you'll say no to that, you what are you going to the order comes down to charge the charge the hill? you know You can't be a free thinker in the military.
00:39:42
Speaker
You have to be an order follower. You have to be an order follower. You have to be a yes. I don't like that. i I realize I don't like that about her our military.
00:39:52
Speaker
and And people were like, well, that's the way it has to function. That's where they keep order and discipline. No, that's how you get people that will do nasty shit. because somebody told them to do it. like Again, the Nazis, the whole, well, I was ordered to do it thing.
00:40:06
Speaker
I don't like that defense, but that defense isn't without some little bit of merit.
00:40:13
Speaker
The thing is, it creates automatons. I call it NPCs. You have the programming, and you can't deviate from that programming. I call them NPCs.
00:40:25
Speaker
That's why I call them NPCs. or Or perfect soldiers. Yeah, yeah. This is why I got out after 14 and a half years and said, fuck retirement. I got out on my own. You made it that long.
00:40:38
Speaker
like I got out. like I didn't get kicked out. i didn't like My enlistment ended, and I said, I'm not re-enlisting, and people lost their shit. but like i always was I was in my my my shop chief's office. I was in my commander's office. I was in my first year's office, chief's office.
00:40:54
Speaker
ah on base recruiters office trying to get me to to go to air national guard. At least everybody's like, why you getting out? Why are you getting out? Why you getting out? You can reenlist. You can reenlist. Come to find out after the fact, my squadron commander, my shop chief and the first sergeant all got counseling because somebody got out underneath their command that could have reenlisted.
00:41:15
Speaker
I'm like, y'all got in trouble because somebody decided to change their life. That's fucked. I'm not saying like they got in trouble at where it's like getting scolded, but it, it, it dog, it makes, it looks, it's a ah bad bad, it's a bad mark on their, on their record that somebody didn't reenlist that could have, because it's shit. It, it shows the rest of the air force that,
00:41:41
Speaker
you're not a good commander if somebody's not yet. yeah Which I think is wrong. I think it's so wrong to hold... Yeah, because my decision had nothing to do with my particular commander.
00:41:51
Speaker
My commander was the whole system. It wasn't that you were an individual. It's that they failed to keep you in line. Exactly. Exactly. Yeah, yeah,
00:42:01
Speaker
But it's because I was um ah was too much of an individual. Because I'm one of those people that just kind of... He kind of just writes his own rules in life. That's something I learned early, thankfully.
00:42:18
Speaker
I don't believe in rules. I do want to touch on authoritarianism and authoritative. is and they are They are different. i I do want to talk about... i guess I'll open it.
00:42:33
Speaker
For me, I believe there is just authority and unjust authority. In other words, I have have a broken leg.
00:42:44
Speaker
I need to go to somebody that can fix that. Well, the authority on a broken leg is a doctor, or in this particular case, a bone doctor, whatever to call it, a specific doctor to take care of my broken bone.
00:42:56
Speaker
And that way, that's a justified authority. An unjustified authority who would be to go to somebody that isn't a doctor, and they don't know what the fuck they're doing, but they say they do.
00:43:09
Speaker
We need to know these things, I think. um What the fuck is rules? Rules? Rules are... i look at rules as like the...
00:43:24
Speaker
I think what she's saying is rules are something that she doesn't understand because she's just going to anyway. Yeah, this is true. No, I think rules aren't... I mean, rules aren't rules rules shouldn't be in place permanently.
00:43:36
Speaker
Sometimes they need to be ignored. Sometimes they need to be broken. Sometimes they need to be bent. We're fluid. We've got to give and take. Not every situation is exactly the same.
00:43:47
Speaker
You cannot apply one rule to every situation because there are extenuating circumstances, period. Yes. how That's why we've gotten things like the stay-at-the-ground law, for one. ah We've gotten things like um ah shit the the passion the moment of passion argument. but the passion Oh, um I know what you're talking about. yeah in battered partner Battered partner defense.
00:44:16
Speaker
Yeah. I was going to go more. There are amendments to old rules that make sense to a more evolved society. As we develop more ah technologies and better ways to just think,
00:44:31
Speaker
we we start realizing this is not what we thought it was. And it changes. i' am Again, when we talk about rules governing people, we really talk about morals.
00:44:43
Speaker
ah We really are values and shit. but What we value, what we value people not to do. Society's mores come from the same stories. Just unwritten wrong. this is why I have hard time with laws on the book.
00:44:57
Speaker
and this is why i have a hard time with laws on the A big reason why I hate plea deals. But i i feel like we're such a society full of rules that we, quote unquote, have to follow that we we're losing the intent of of what it means to to make mistakes and learn from and and all that stuff.
Authority, Rules, and Justice Debate
00:45:21
Speaker
Like, I'm not... so Some rules need to exist. Like, categorically, categorical imperative. You know, we shouldn't just murder people for murdering people. That's wrong.
00:45:32
Speaker
It's immoral. And I'm okay with with with that as a as a law. But it's when you start um every situ situation, you once you start looking at every situation, saying sure, ah this person used a gun to kill this person and this person used a gun to kill that person, but they might not be the same situation. The whys, we need to know the whys, and that's why we need court cases.
00:45:56
Speaker
This is why I don't like plea deals because we go off by just existing laws that Well, maybe in this one circumstance situation, get down the nuts and bolts, that law has no no application to it because the the intent of the law just't doesn't apply.
00:46:12
Speaker
But we're going to force it anyway because for the but the sake of, quote unquote, justice. And so many people end up in the prison system that don't need to be there because of that. And a lot of them get out early, but they belong there.
00:46:28
Speaker
I just realized, Michael, I absolutely suck at at putting I say, hey at the beginning of the show, was like, i got I got comments. And this is not the first time I've done this. It's okay. I can do it. I can do it. It's just... I get to talk instead. It's when we push the button at the same time say, okay, he wants to comments.
00:46:45
Speaker
Sorry. but as you As you get deep in your arguments, you're not looking at the screen. You're looking at that camera make sure I can see your face. Well, yeah that know and only when people shoving their morals thoughts against you.
00:47:00
Speaker
Yeah, yeah. and lot of Sometimes the laws are... so that's This is another problem. why i have I have a problem with laws. It's bad authoritarianism.
00:47:14
Speaker
we We legislate morality. I think that's wrong. I think that's so wrong. and I don't like when when people run for office or take jobs that their job is to apply their morals to the law.
00:47:32
Speaker
it fun It's That's where we we start to to to lose our humanity. Some laws based on morality are for a reason. They had to do it because somebody just couldn't get that it's not acceptable it's not an okay thing to do like for instance but a law doesn't stop people from doing that there's still slavery there's still people that own people in this country it's just it's so small and isolated that nobody's noticing it or that person that's enslaved can't get out to report it like that shit happens well sure laws laws don't stop it murder murders don't know what happens every day
00:48:14
Speaker
That's not the point. If you do these types of things and you get caught doing it, you should be punished for it. Period. I agree. Absolutely. and like In in in in ah in a in a a court of law, not not based off a law, but any court, make the argument.
00:48:31
Speaker
Because what if that person's argument for murder is actually convincing? I mean, that person should at least get that that's that that opportunity. I'm not saying that it is, but but some murder is...
00:48:43
Speaker
he murder isn't justified, but killing can be justified. Okay. here's Here's what I got to say about that.
00:48:52
Speaker
If and only if you feel like your case isn't strong enough to beat the government's prosecution, do you take as an innocent person, knowing you didn't do it, but there's enough circumstantial evidence that can convict you,
00:49:11
Speaker
For instance, my spouse ends up dead. Nobody's ever found. I didn't do it, but through talking and just my stress of the moment, my story's a little off a couple of times in different interviews.
00:49:27
Speaker
Now I look suspicious. ah But it's not the cop's job to find out who's innocent. The cop's job is to find out who I can get enough evidence against to convict for this crime.
00:49:40
Speaker
They're building a case against me, even though I know I'm innocent. And I'm talking without an attorney to the cops thinking, I just want to help this case. I want to find out what happened to my wife. Right. But they're building a case against me because obviously I'm in her life regularly.
00:49:55
Speaker
I'm suspect number one immediately. yeah They don't care if I didn't do it or not. They care about closing the case. And if they can find enough evidence to jam me up and not have to go hunting for somebody else, that's what they're going to do.
00:50:09
Speaker
I think that's one so that's one good thing I do like about the whole the whole idea of um ah beyond a reasonable doubt, which I think that has been totally thrown out the window. There are cases I'm like, yeah, but there's still that's that that still there's still a lot of doubt there.
00:50:30
Speaker
You know what I mean? i don't think i think some cases, a lot of cases, ah don't live up to that. and I think that's unfortunate, but I know what you're talking about.
00:50:41
Speaker
So what they'll do is ah well, here's what you can do. You can take you know second degree manslaughter and go to prison for four years or go up against this, maybe get the death penalty, maybe get life without parole.
00:50:59
Speaker
that is a That's a real choice. I mean, I know me being me. I'm to do the dumb thing, and I'm going to fight it. I'm going to get convicted for the rest of my life in jail. um'm go I'm going to tell you.
00:51:10
Speaker
I don't want to say I didn't do this. I did something i did not do, but at the same time, I'm going to go to jail forever for nothing.
00:51:20
Speaker
Yeah, we we have we have a lazy justice system. or you're a real criminal. Yeah, I did that shit. Yeah, yeah, I'll plead down. Why not? Why not?
00:51:33
Speaker
Because we have a lazy justice system. This would be great. It doesn't matter if a person is guilty or or really guilty or not. It's how fast they can get that case through the court system for the next person. If that's just given plea deals, hey, yeah, it's possible um you might not did it, but you know what? You're you're not going to spend the maximum time, just you know a little bit.
00:51:54
Speaker
If every single case on the docket went through to to actual trial, we would still be trying OJ from 1997. yeah Maybe. So prior to plea deals, there was there was there was a point, and you can and you can talk to you can look at the that the history of our justice system and find this out. It's how I found out about it.
00:52:18
Speaker
It used to be a time in our country where plea deals We're not something people did because if you were asking for a plea deal, you were a bad lawyer because you don't have an argument.
00:52:31
Speaker
And for some reason, over time, it just started to happen more more more more more more. And was like, at this point, it's just lazy justice and it's the easy thing to do.
00:52:43
Speaker
again it's lazy by by necessity kind of because they'll never get all these cases through it costs so much money to house these people and again i think that's why we have too many laws on the books and some of this shit is like okay he he he ran into a sign with his car okay it was damaged why are we wasting time in a court for this did anybody get hurt no was just his car and the sign Oh, right. Make them pay for the sign.
00:53:11
Speaker
That's it. Like, why do we need a court case for that? Let's not use traffic court as an example. Because a lot of those get seen in front of judges. They're not like weeks and months long trial. ah you' Okay. Fair enough. Fair enough. Criminal court is a different animal.
00:53:24
Speaker
Fair enough. Yeah. I just don't think plea deals should be a thing. Like, I think if if you're if you think somebody needs to go to prison or jail, the state usually needs to make the argument, not ask for it.
00:53:37
Speaker
The state should not be allowed to ask for a plea deal. If the state's asking for plea deals, then the state shouldn't have a kate a court case. they shouldn't They shouldn't. Like, if they're asking the quote-unquote potential criminal,
00:53:50
Speaker
hey, we'll be easier on you if you just say you're guilty is asinine. If the state can't prove their case with an argument have to ask for a freebie, I'm sorry. i think there's something wrong with that.
00:54:03
Speaker
In large cases, that doesn't happen, though. like the only The only way the state offers a plea deal is if they've got enough evidence, they think they're you know fucked, but at the same time, they're missing that one like golden golden ticket piece of evidence that absolutely guarantees that a reasonable doubt, beyond a reasonable doubt.
00:54:28
Speaker
No, they'll don't they'll even add the'll way i but no they'll ask for plea deals even when they don't have all the evidence because like they'll have a hunch or it's pretty strong that they're guilty, but they don't want to waste a lot of time in court because of cost or publicity or whatever. So it's like, take a plea deal. and well you know You're obviously guilty or not guilty or guilty, but But that's the state manipulating victim. or I call it a victim because I think plea deals are bad, regardless of the person's guilty or not of a crime.
00:55:02
Speaker
The state should not even be allowed to do that. I think it's lazy. I think me as the potential criminal, if I know in my head that I'm guilty, I know I'm not going to get away with it. If I go, hey, I'll plead guilty if you give me a less time, I'm okay with that because that's kind of more human. But for the state, the person in charge, the ah authority, the authority to to to cop out and ask for a plea deal, i think it's bullshit.
Reflections on Power Abuse in Society
00:55:30
Speaker
I think it's a huge problem with the justice system.
00:55:33
Speaker
And unfortunately this has nothing to do with the standards completely, except for for human mentality and how when we get, we'll get lazy and how we treat others maybe.
00:55:47
Speaker
So. Well, we still talk about the crux of it. And I think that our conversation led us to what we were wanted to talk about anyway, just that the abuse of power, I mean, it's in all structures, not just prison structures.
00:56:03
Speaker
but just the way it breaks it all down to a one-on-one personal level in the prison experiment. and And what we did was just build up through how that affects through society. And it was a good talk. We did exactly what we wanted to do today.
00:56:16
Speaker
You know, that's that's an interesting point. I know the whole Stanford experiment, this is what heard in the documentary, it was supposed to like prove how bad prisons are and stuff. And trust me, I don't think we need that experiment really to prove that. But It seems like a lot of people just apply it to just the prison system. when I think you can apply it to military, ah law enforcement, ah this the way humans act when it comes to the dynamic of of authority and non-authority.
00:56:43
Speaker
There's a dynamic there. And some people in authority just abuse it. They drove, those kids drove those other kids to revolt, have a prison riot.
00:56:55
Speaker
Think about that. This is why i don't get mad when people riot in the streets because it's... You pushed it to this point. This is the only way you're going to listen. Let's go burn some shit.
00:57:08
Speaker
yeah in MLK said it best, and I'm paraphrasing. um ah Riots are or the actions of the voiceless or the unheard or something like that. yeah but If a person's protest vocal goes ignored long enough, they get physical because especially when they're the one being objectified or oppressed and all that like their their writing their physical aggression is their being human and trying to raise above the oppression and and tell those guards to leave me alone you know i'm using the guard as an analog that's good for
00:57:48
Speaker
Yeah, and this is this is, I don't want to get too much into riots because this is a conversation I kind of want Brittany, you, and I to have because she brought it up offline. Oh, yeah, for protest.
Future Episodes and Closing Remarks
00:57:58
Speaker
Yeah, you brought it offline. I was like i think I think this would be a good chronic contemplation to talk about protests and riots and stuff.
00:58:05
Speaker
So I don't want to do that next Thursday. Yeah, we yeah, yeah. yeah Brittany, if you're still got your ears on, if you want to, you're free next Thursday. Because Tuesday, what are we doing? Trolley talk.
00:58:18
Speaker
Woo! Trolley Tuesdays for a little while. I love the last one. Can't wait to do it again. um We stopped at 15, and they go really high. So this might take through the rest of the year if you guys like doing it with us. We had ball.
00:58:33
Speaker
We had a ball. But we'll keep doing it until it's not fun anymore, at least. Yeah. Yeah, because I mean... Why don't we lose all our viewers? Who cares? We're enjoying it. Yeah, because if we're at, like, trolley problem number 300 and I'm dozing off, yeah, it's fun.
00:58:48
Speaker
A lot of things, like the way they keep, because again, we were applying our own caveats and extra little bonies, and then they started doing it too. I was like, ooh, see, they are thinking through this a little bit more like we are.
00:59:01
Speaker
But yeah, we're going do that again on Tuesday, and maybe the Thursday after that, I want to talk about the Milberg experiment. Oh, going have to look that one up. Check that one out.
00:59:12
Speaker
That's why i was talking we were talking about it offline. But I think that's, I think that's it for contemplation on this Thursday afternoon morning. Fuck. You're not hot.
00:59:25
Speaker
You shut it down. I'm, um I got a little stoned. Michael's doing a terrible outro. I'm the worst. Michael's doing the Brittany fade.
00:59:39
Speaker
Anyway, I want to thank everybody for coming here this morning. It's, it's 11 here. So it's still in the morning. I know. We're on the East Coast, so we're the first time zone America.
00:59:50
Speaker
I know you cats, as we go west, it's still early in the morning for you, but thank you for listening. We'll see you next Tuesday on Chronic Contemplations. Catch Michael and I again tomorrow night.
01:00:02
Speaker
We actually got trivia tomorrow night. Trivia? and tri movie trivia tomorrow night, so come check that Westerns. Westerns, yes. It should be fun. Don't talk to Glick about Westerns. You don't know what he's talking about.
01:00:14
Speaker
camera battery just died again. I don't think these batteries last very long. That was perfect timing. That was, I've had to swap it twice in an hour. They usually used last longer than an hour.
01:00:24
Speaker
Anyway. Thanks for joining us, guys. Yeah. So, on that on that note, y'all have a great day.
01:00:42
Speaker
Nonsensical network, different flavor every day Movie talks, new flicks, hitting the display Microphone magic, musicians spill the praise From reptiles to motorsports, burning rubber craze Football crashes, touchdowns, epic plays New spinning, catching on the tales, word and stories we embrace Tune in, tune in, every week diverse Groove to the beats, let the rhythm immerse Lyrics flowing, cymbals
01:01:16
Speaker
Buzzing stars in the just right, tune in, tune in, wait for that,