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Chronic Contemplations - Milgram Experiment
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This morning Michael and Josh will e chit chatting about the Milgram Experiment.
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Transcript
Technical Glitches and Apologies
00:00:15
Speaker
Well, good morning, and my headphones are way up too loud. ah Way too loud. Oh, about blew my eardrums out. Good morning, to Michael. What up? How you doing? Now I got it down, turned down too low.
00:00:29
Speaker
Sorry, I hooked my headphones up right at the start of this because they were like 10% when I jumped in the studio earlier. So I was like oh, crap. So anyway, how you doing?
The Milgram Experiment Introduction
00:00:42
Speaker
I'm well. It's Thursday, and I'm above the dirt, calling win.
00:00:48
Speaker
Oh my gosh. i am I am not having a good start of the morning. I apologize. Nothing like a camera dying 10 seconds into the show. Well, while you fix that, want to remind our listeners and viewers to like, subscribe, and share.
00:01:02
Speaker
Here at the Nonsensical Network, 9 out of 10 grannies. Approve. Approve. wo Well, we are here in this I won't say early, early morning. If you're listening to us on the West Coast right now, it's definitely probably early for your asses. 7 o'clock early.
00:01:24
Speaker
but We are going to be talking about ah the Milgram experiment. and so and I have a summary of it. I'm going to read it real quick. and I did a last minute video upload for the for the morning show, so I'm a little little unorganized. Again, I had everything organized, but And this is a Google definition. So if you just type in Milgram experiment, the information we're going to be sharing today this morning is going be primarily from like Wikipedia,.edu site, shit
Ethical Implications of Milgram and Stanford Experiments
00:01:59
Speaker
like that. Open source stuff.
00:02:01
Speaker
Open source stuff, absolutely. The Milgram experiment was a controversial 1960 psychology study by Stanley Milgram, demonstrating the powerful human tendency to obey authority figures.
00:02:13
Speaker
even to the point of inflicting harm on others. ah Participants were instructed to administer seemingly severe electric shocks to another person for correct answers i'm sorry four incorrect answers, ah with the majority continuing to the highest voltage despite the quote-unquote victims' quote unquote victims of apparent pain.
00:02:35
Speaker
The experiment's results showed that ordinary people can commit immoral acts when ordered to do so. Highlighting the situational nature of behavior is sparking ethical debates about research on human subjects.
00:02:49
Speaker
ah So this gentleman, I am, let me get off this screen. This gentleman, I got a picture of him. I got some visuals for y'all. Stanley Milgram. Eyeballs this morning.
00:03:00
Speaker
This guy, Stanley Milgram, being, um, oh I won't say inspired, but curious about the goings-on of the Holocaust and why so many people just just kind of... following orders, that whole thing.
00:03:17
Speaker
Yeah, and this this does kind of piggyback off the Stanford experiment, which we talked about last week. um This one is... That's nice. What's that?
00:03:28
Speaker
That's what thought it was fit nice, this nice little bookender. Yeah. this This experiment, to me, though, wasn't as harmful as the Stanford experiment.
00:03:41
Speaker
Well, no. Definitely not. But it still speaks to power. Oh, absolutely. And obedience. Absolutely. Which is kind of the crux of what I think they wanted to do with Stanford prison.
00:03:57
Speaker
You know exactly how. that salism Yeah. You know how the experiment was ran?
Milgram Experiment Details and Movie Depictions
00:04:05
Speaker
The Milgram? yeah yes you want to explain that real quick you i know you're better you're better um familiar with it than i am but after mike gets explaining it there is a clip from the two 2015 movie the experimenter a documentary of the milgram experiment done by hollywood that'd be nice it's got john john l in it i love that guy i sent you a uh clip too from an actual doc about the show or i'm sorry a doc about the experiment but anyway stanley morgan has this idea of uh how people will respond to orders so he sets up a it's a blind experiment okay so you would be questioner <unk> you'd be called the uh the teacher was your role and the person on the other side of the window
00:04:58
Speaker
It's completely invisible to the subject the the subject in the area subject. That's the fake test subject. He's behind glass. And he just pretends to feel pain. So they go over these pairs.
00:05:11
Speaker
Let's say boy, girl, ah water, earth. If you get the wrong pairing, they go over it and you're supposed to teach the fake test subject what these pairs are. And every time they give you a wrong answer, zap them.
00:05:24
Speaker
And each time you zap them, it goes up in intensity. up in intensity, up in intensity. The tester, the experimenter, assures the test subject that there will not be lethal doses of electric shock.
00:05:46
Speaker
The man on the other side, the fake test subject, explains in front of the subject about his recent heart issue.
00:05:56
Speaker
Hmm. don't you're aware of that. They added that little. no. Yeah, they added that little knit into the quilt there. So these experimenters keep blasting them over and over and over again because the subject, I'm sorry, the tester is right there saying, so I'm sorry, teacher, you must continue. You must continue.
00:06:17
Speaker
The experiment requires you to continue. You have no choice. They keep telling them you have no choice. You must continue.
00:06:25
Speaker
That is a good segue into this movie clip. um it's kind of in this in this clip we're about to show you in this scene of the experimenter 2015 uh movie about the milligram experiment it's gonna it shows an interviewer talking to to i you know what i didn't get my movie hat on this morning so i i gotta imdb this this real quick i'm so sorry guys uh
00:06:55
Speaker
experimenter he's got winona rider in it i always mess up john john legu's john legu's mo legu's ammo yeah always mess up his name
00:07:08
Speaker
so um peter sarsigard is in this scene um so is let's see Jim, is it Jim Gaffigan in the scene? Jim Gaffigan's in the scene.
00:07:20
Speaker
ah Peter Sarzegar is in the scene. don't know what it is. I don't know what Peter Sarzegar in the scene. Think of like a poor man's Ewan McGregor. I don't know. Ewan McGregor plays the new Ben Kenobi.
00:07:36
Speaker
John Leguizamo is playing a character named Taylor. He's the... He's one of the subject matters, the one controlling the electric shock. And, of course, Peter Sarsagar is playing Stanley Milgram himself.
00:07:49
Speaker
So, without further ado. The man in the other room, the learner, the shocks. Oh, you guys might want to turn the volume up, too. If you guys can't hear this, turn volume up.
00:08:03
Speaker
Here we go. The man in the other room, the learner, the shocks. Well, as you can see, I wanted to stop because... Each time he gave a shock, the guy hollered. Did it sound as if he was in pain?
00:08:17
Speaker
Yeah. Did he say he wanted you to stop the experiment? Yes. I hope they can hear it. I can't hear a thing.
00:08:28
Speaker
I don't know.
00:08:31
Speaker
Why didn't you stop at that point when he asked you to stop? Why didn't I stop? Well, because he told me to continue. Why did you listen to that man and not the man in pain?
00:08:47
Speaker
Well, because I thought the experiment depended on me. and And nobody told me to stop. He asked you to stop.
00:08:55
Speaker
That's true, but but he's the... um you know, the subject, shall we say. Who was the... Who bore the responsibility for the fact that this man was being shocked?
00:09:13
Speaker
don't know.
00:09:19
Speaker
Could you fill out items 6 through 18 on the questionnaire in front of please? Here's a pen.
00:09:33
Speaker
I get a little skittish. I'm nervous. As I explained to Mr. Wallace in the other room, this shock generator is actually used with small animals for laboratory experiments, mice and rats, and so forth.
00:09:48
Speaker
The visual designation is actually misleading. This shock generator has actually been adjusted so that the shocks were just slightly stronger than shock you experienced. Are you all right? I'm fine.
00:10:03
Speaker
No hard feelings. I probably would have done the same thing myself.
Reactions and Variations of the Milgram Experiment
00:10:13
Speaker
I've got to take that end part off. but Here's what bugs me about that clip. Are you ready for this? Yeah, go for it. It's a little bullshitty on what what actually happened with the experiments, okay?
00:10:26
Speaker
Milgram stood in the in the subject space. And there were many subjects who said, i don't think we should keep going. This man's you know yelling for us to stop, stop, stop. He's got a heart problem.
00:10:40
Speaker
I don't feel good about this. And one of these... ah one of these um subjects said very specifically, I won't be held responsible for what happened to him. And then Milgram said, well, you're not responsible for it.
00:10:53
Speaker
They said, well, who is responsible? Because I am. I'm telling you to continue going because you must continue going. And he still refused. No, no, no. I don't want to continue. This is a problem.
00:11:04
Speaker
but i We have the responsibility. He was very adamant about not continuing because of the man's heart. Now, I'm not saying that was in every case. But it was the most interesting part about the Milgram thing we haven't even talked about yet. okay Milgram expected 3% of experimenters, I'm sorry, of testers, to continue going through me going through. And it came up to more like 50%. I do have some numbers.
00:11:31
Speaker
Oh, good. Again, everybody fact check these. We're basically, we're unprofessionals pretending to know what we're talking about. I'm professional idiot. fair um um'm I'm gonna have to zoom in.
00:11:49
Speaker
So this breaks down the the experiment one, 10, experiment three, four, seven, it's just blah, blah, blah. Experimental replications, because this experiment has been redone, ah because there was a lot of controversy, like, oh, it's fake, it's you know not accurate results, and blah, blah, blah, blah.
00:12:06
Speaker
But... there was enough ah replications of this experiment worldwide to where it is, it's within an era of margin. I can't what the percentage is. It's reasonable era of margin.
00:12:19
Speaker
Yeah, it's a reasonable era of margin that this this this shit's real. Yeah. Are you looking at like experiment experiment, the first experiment at Yale with mit whi men and women was at 65% obedience.
00:12:37
Speaker
And then each other experiment slightly different or somewhere else, like experiment number 10, the study was conducted off campus at Bridgeport, Connecticut, 48.
00:12:49
Speaker
um You have to read the verbiage, it's really in in the methodology and everything of each experiment, but it gives you kind of a rundown um of, ah you know, an ordinary man, presumably another research assistant,
00:13:01
Speaker
participant gives orders. It's percent obedience is 20%. It also depends, as well I guess what it's trying to convey is that it also depends on who's giving the orders.
00:13:17
Speaker
You know what I mean? Like you're less likely
00:13:22
Speaker
If Michael's sitting there telling me to crank up the the voltage, well, I know he's a sadist. I'm probably going to tell him no. But if like somebody that I know is, you know, not say a better person, let's say my mom told me you know to do it, well, I probably would. My mom knows better, right?
00:13:39
Speaker
I'm using it as a loose, loose, loose analogy, but kind of like that.
00:13:47
Speaker
I'm a sadist that needs to die. You're going choose some strangers over me.
00:13:57
Speaker
So I think that that doesn't really come into it for the experiment because the experimenters the experiment subjects don't know who these people are other than they're in the psychology department and they are conducting an experiment.
00:14:11
Speaker
Well, no, I'm talking about the replications of the the original Milgram experiment. Because this, like I said, this experiment was was replicated, and each time it was replicated, there were some different variables. Well, in the original experiment, the experimenters were paid.
00:14:25
Speaker
I'm sorry, the experimenters, the subjects were paid. Mm-hmm. Well, I'm not taking into consideration the pay or whatnot. Here's the thing about pay. This is why I think that's interesting.
00:14:36
Speaker
They were told in the beginning, your pay is already written out to you. It's a check. They show them the check. No matter what happens from here on out, you've shown up, you're here, you get paid no matter how those results end, which I found very interesting. They could have stopped the subject's.
00:14:53
Speaker
The subjects could have stopped their fucking shocks anytime they wanted to and knew they were still getting paid. They were promised the fucking money. They showed them the money. They were promised that check at the end of the experiment.
00:15:05
Speaker
And they still kept shocking sons of bitches. it It sounds like either a the money wasn't even like that much of a a a in 1963 how much was four dollars vi sal or fifty cents maybe the the money might have been enough to entice them to volunteer for the experiment but not enough for them for it to influence their decisions during the during the experiment as soon as spam still in 1960s four dollars and fifty cents i think was a lot of money you could shop for a week of groceries on 450 then right
00:15:40
Speaker
i I don't know. i In 1973, a brand new car was $1,700. $1,73. You can definitely, for $4.50, you can probably eat for a few days. That's for sure.
00:15:52
Speaker
I'm saying it wasn't a pittance. and In my opinion, it was some pittance. It's like offering $50 today, I would imagine. Yeah. No, I know. I i completely get that.
00:16:03
Speaker
so I
Influence of Authority and Obedience in Society
00:16:04
Speaker
don't know. I thought that was an interesting thing. and Oh, Mark Schaefer. Good morning, Mark. An old friend of mine from ah when I was flunking out of Toledo and meeting Sue. Oh, nice.
00:16:15
Speaker
Yeah, great guy. Really, really, really smart. The implicit social contract. He can talk on your level. He's not like me. I'm a moron. sort of rules That's true. I i can see where he's coming from there.
00:16:29
Speaker
I almost wonder if... Let's go back to the money real quick. but we're We're all... I think in a way we're we're kind of conditioned to when we go to work and we get paid or $10 an hour, you know, and we're under the the idea, no matter what I'm there for work, work is going to be work.
00:16:51
Speaker
Whatever the boss tells me do, I do. One day it could be less than the next day. One day it's more than the previous day workload wise. Either way you go in and you do your, you're already obligated work for the money you're going to get paid, regardless if it's going to be a hard day or a soft day.
00:17:06
Speaker
Well, but we're but we're we're already conditioned to work hard. Like it's ah it's a virtue in this country. It's like a thing we have to do. So when these guys go in to press these buttons, even though they know they're getting paid and they can say no They feel entitled, or they feel obligated to earn that money too do the best job they can.
00:17:28
Speaker
And that means the more work, the more pressing the button, the higher the voltage. That's because the louder somebody is, the more quote unquote results are being seen. And you feel like the sense of accomplishment is just because that sounds.
00:17:42
Speaker
So that's kind of where my brain's at with it. But the idea is to teach the other test experiment, the fake subject is supposed to learn. And when all you are is using pain for negative results, that's not necessarily a... Of course, you're not trained to be a teacher necessarily, everybody, I don't know. So a lot goes into it, I guess, a lot more thinking than I had originally anticipated on the song this topic.
00:18:06
Speaker
I'm just saying they they originally figured roughly 3% of people would put their head down and barrel through, power through it. so Yes, I do chuckle about I think it's interesting.
00:18:20
Speaker
ah But that was another part about like some of those clips. The guys laughing. they They were saying it was nervous laughter. They weren't giggling because they were hurting people. They were giggling because it was nervous laughter. Like, yeah, yeah, yeah. What do I do here? Yeah,
00:18:35
Speaker
So interestingly enough, that is something I notice out of people in my engagement with people throughout my life is when they're nervous or insecure or they don't want to come off as that, but they are, they, they, they had this laugh about them that they're, they're laughing as they're carrying on.
00:18:51
Speaker
And it's not that they find it funny. It's just that's how they're coping with the situation. Nervous laughter is real. Sue gets it in the worst times. Yep. All right. Mark Shaver says, look at this fifth motherfucker chugging with this. If I were in that experiment, I guarantee you I'd be giggling at the noises this fool would make.
00:19:09
Speaker
I guarantee you I'd be giggling. It would have come across my mind eventually about his heart condition. But, yeah, at first I'd be laughing, but not nervously. i I'd be thinking it was funny.
00:19:21
Speaker
Learn, dummy. Blast. I'm having flashbacks when I was getting drunk with my homies in the dorms and we would have, we had, one of us had a dog shot caller and we would be like, first one who passes out.
00:19:36
Speaker
yeah Jackass ensues. Ooh, I'm calling those shot callers Milgram callers now. I'm just saying.
00:19:47
Speaker
but I'm sure Mark's sort of the Milgram experiment. I'm glad he popped in, man. Thanks for watching, buddy. Apparently he's also got nothing better to do at 10 a.m. on a fucking Thursday. I've heard of this experiment before. I never really, I still did do a deep, deep dive in it because I get the ah get the overall point after watching the Stanford experiment and familiarizing with this one.
00:20:10
Speaker
it's um'm I'm bringing up some Nietzsche. It's the whole slave master mentality. It's the majority of us. or just Or just compliant individuals. Somebody asks us to do something because we we want to not you know rock the boat. We just do it. We just say, yeah, I'll do that for you.
00:20:31
Speaker
Well, like you said, if they weren they were asking serious societal questions. How did 6 million people complicitly get rounded up and eliminated by a bunch of regular everyday folks?
00:20:45
Speaker
At the end of the day, not an Asian of Hitler. So it was one Hitler, a few mini Hitlers and a bunch of regular everyday guys following orders. Yeah. Mm
00:20:57
Speaker
hmm. And that's a cast.
00:21:03
Speaker
No, I'm just I'm sitting here thinking I'm like, and I've said it before and I'll say it again. The majority of society. regardless of how much we feel we're so individual individualistic and and we know what's going on and we got a handling on this and blah blah blah we're just we're just cattle we're just going along with the rest of the herd punching a clock punching out doing yes sir no sir you know do do your routine we're we're taught that we need a routine in order to fucking function so we you know we more or less have have routines
00:21:34
Speaker
And one of our routines in order not to disrupt a routine is you know we we say yes, because we're taught if we tell people, no, I'm not going to do that, then we're being selfish.
00:21:45
Speaker
And we don't want to be selfish. So we be a team player. yeah Yeah, be a team player. Yeah, if you're not a team player, then you're the quote-unquote bad guy. It's like ah there's this value system to to to telling somebody no or you know this moral system.
00:22:02
Speaker
You're part of the problem. yeah Yeah, if I tell my boss no somehow I'm the bad guy. I tell my boss no all the fucking time. That's my point.
00:22:13
Speaker
You don't belong work. What's that? You don't belong don't. I don't. I had a boss. I have to be my boss because only I know what I want. ye I worked at a job here in this local area for a
Stories of Disobedience and Military Conduct
00:22:27
Speaker
little bit.
00:22:27
Speaker
The word ah is altruism is the second word is tribal. ay Yeah. Yeah. ya Yes. Tribalism is a huge fucking problem. um I went to, I worked at, it was ah it was an auto parts store and i have I have a mechanical background and all this, but The reason why I ended up quitting is I put my two weeks in. ah There was a lot of political religious talk. ah the the The radio station that was on all day was Christian music and the entire time.
00:22:58
Speaker
And every while I would hear something that just made me chuckle and I'd laugh out loud. and somebody would be like, what you laughing? I was like, oh, what the guy said on the radio. ah Anyway, or somebody would say something politically and I'd just snark or something or I'd share my opinion.
00:23:11
Speaker
One day, apparently it was hurting the boss's business because some of the cuffs, I live in a holy, holy, holy fucking town. I don't know, man. And, ah but I'm just being me. I just speak my mind like everybody else, regardless of what our beliefs are.
00:23:25
Speaker
The boss comes to me. He's like, hey, man, you're going to, going to have to like stop sharing your opinions, basically. And I'm like, interesting. Interesting. And then so the next day I put my two weeks in and I was professional enough to do that.
00:23:39
Speaker
But I was sitting there one day during this this last two weeks and he's sitting there talking to his is buddies that come in and sit there and shoot the shit with them. And he they're sitting there just throwing all their political beliefs down and opinions.
00:23:52
Speaker
And I look over, he looks over at me and he has this look in his eye like, I'm an asshole. Yeah, fuck people like that.
00:24:01
Speaker
yeah fuck people like that Dun dun dun. Yeah, yeah, I don't I this is why I'm not a nine to fiver don't I Experiments like this point out the fact that we engage Conditionally or uncon I know we're conditioned to participate in the hierarchical system like we can't Not participate in a hierarchical system.
00:24:28
Speaker
I try my darndest not to I try to be the most disobedient Son of a bitch, I can. While respecting everybody else's freedoms and liberties and stuff, too. And... Yeah. Yeah, you are, Sue. You are.
00:24:44
Speaker
Believe me, I'm not a But I'm rambling at this point. I'm on my soapbox. Oh.
00:24:54
Speaker
The Nietzsche, the the slave the slave master mentality. It's just something we're ingrained with, I think. I'm not saying it's ah our default position when we're born, but I think it's part of our ah nature or our nurture, part of our nurture process as we grow up.
00:25:12
Speaker
We're taught to be obedient. At home, at school, at home, at school. Public education is designed to make good citizens, not smart kids.
00:25:26
Speaker
Exactly. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I blame that on Puritan realism, but that's ah that's a that's a discussion for another morning. Ooh, that'll be next Thursday. Puritan realism.
00:25:38
Speaker
That's all you. Give me some material. I will. I will. Puritan realism, all right. It sounds like heavy shit. ah But the Milgram experiment.
00:25:53
Speaker
There you go.
00:25:56
Speaker
Bedroom issue.
00:26:01
Speaker
yeah Yeah, we're not talking about the fetishization. Yeah, we're not talking BDSM. That's right. no we're talking We're talking Nietzsche's Slave Master. but Guys, look into that. It's a pretty interesting philosophy to to kind of understand.
00:26:23
Speaker
We're at Charlie Experiments. Maybe we'll talk about that on Tuesday. What's that? Slave Master. Oh, yeah. Yeah, we can do that. Well, think that Ubermensch.
00:26:36
Speaker
The Superman. Yeah.
00:26:40
Speaker
I'm trying to remember who... it's This isn't a Nietzsche quote, and i'm paraphrasing.
00:26:46
Speaker
It's not Schopenhauer. Mark will pull it out. Just go ahead and run it.
00:26:53
Speaker
No, it's stuck. i want to... Ah, fuck. I remember the idea. not the name. Anyway, it's... um I say this often on the show, live your life so free that your, your whole existence is, is a rebellion.
00:27:09
Speaker
Yeah. Wasn't Shayla Vaca. No, no. i mean I'm just shouting a revolutionary man. the way shits around going And we can, we, we're seeing that right now.
00:27:25
Speaker
Um, where we have people in our military that are simply following orders. Has there been some pushback? Actually there has been, which is kind of good, but not not near enough pushback you think you think there would be because- Well, like with Milgram, they expected a 3% compliance rate.
00:27:45
Speaker
It topped out around 50-ish. Yeah. The one experiment showed 65, I think, but everyone else was 50 or under. man milgram should have freaking joined the military before he did that experience his his hypothesis or or yeah his hypothesis of three percent would have probably been like whoa that's wrong probably probably guessed it more they also asked a bunch of uh other psych departments and other universities what do you think will happen and it it it fell in right around that three percent mark among many not just uh not just stanley milgram yeah i wish that um
00:28:24
Speaker
the day-to-day activity of military personnel can be psychoanalyzed more but because of like uh uh uh what's that word security reasons and opsec and comsec you really can't do that but it's interesting i think the way the way the military functions is a great study for shit like this on how when we go to work because we go to work with only one thing in mind Do as I'm told.
00:28:55
Speaker
I'm not over the story about the one single Russian who prevented nuclear war.
00:29:03
Speaker
I'm not familiar with that. There's a computer malfunction. We shot missiles. They're reading incoming missiles. He's got no communication with an outside authority.
00:29:14
Speaker
His job is to see that, press the button, mutually assured destruction. If they launch, we launch, period. Well, he did not launch. And eventually, hours later, it came up. And yes, it was a malfunction.
00:29:27
Speaker
He did the right thing, not pressing the button. I don't know what happened to him after that. I mean, he probably ended up in a gulag or a shot behind the paint shed. i had I had an experience. One person single-handedly avoided nuclear war, and it was a Russian.
00:29:41
Speaker
The evil Russians. Morning, Mandy. What's up, man? Sorry. i have a I have an experience or a story from the Air Force. Like I said, the military is a good – I learned a lot about how people think in the military.
00:29:59
Speaker
um And i've I've applied philosophy to it to help me explain certain certain situations I found myself in when was in the military. And this one is a great one. This whole master-slave mentality, the whole idea of just doing what you're told at the end of the day, but while you're there to do a job.
00:30:16
Speaker
We had we had the we had france a France Air Force unit and doing ah doing a joint exercise with us one time. i worked I worked the third shift, so I went in at 11 at night, and i would get off at 7 in the morning.
00:30:31
Speaker
So it was like a skeleton crew. it was just me and control and then a few guys down in the line delivery office that would you know run the bombs, missiles, or whatnot out to the flight line. Well, we had a call to go take some lives out to out to the to the flight line for this French unit.
00:30:51
Speaker
And they were loading heavies and they were going to drop. It was a war. It was plague war time, so we used real shit. come And... My guys get out there line D drivers. Okay, I work with explosives. So one number thing, one big rule, you don't mix booze and explosives. It's just a no-no.
00:31:10
Speaker
Like that's in a no-brainer. You don't do that. Like, yeah, it shows, it says it in the reg, but this is just a no-brainer. You don't go drunk around fucking explosives unless you're a crazy EOD guy, but they're fine.
00:31:23
Speaker
Anyway, so... um So my line D driver calls me. He's like, hey, I just I pulled up and these French guys out here got like a truck full of beer. They're out here drinking, waiting for me and stuff. I'm like, really?
00:31:36
Speaker
I'm like, don't give him a shit. Here's the thing. That aircraft has to get loaded. That aircraft is on the sortie. It's already planned to go fly in the sky. I'm just at E4 at this time, shutting down a sortie. Like I don't have that power.
00:31:52
Speaker
Like I don't, um I'm not supposed to make a call like that. But my brain is like, there's a huge safety issue about to happen. I have to say something right now. So I made that call. I made that call. There was no, there was nobody else.
00:32:05
Speaker
And then I left the message, you know, with my counterpart in the morning or during switchover and I explained everything to them.
00:32:14
Speaker
And so I go home. I'm in bed. I get a call from my shop chief fucking yelling at me, screaming at me. Get your fucking ass in here. Blah, blah, blah.
00:32:26
Speaker
I'm exaggerating a little bit. um he wasn't screaming me he was definitely not happy. he was He was loud and definitely in charge. And I was scared. I was scared because i know i know my decision during that previous shift shut down a sortie, and that's not that's not good. The Wing King or the Base Commander, like the general, so mostly, usually one star depending on how big the base is.
00:32:51
Speaker
That's a general, dude. Like, that's some fucked up shit. Standing tall before the man, as they say. Yeah, I pretty much fucking... pissed off a general that day for for what I did.
00:33:06
Speaker
And but so what had happened was the guy I did my counterpart with, i even though I gave him a verbal exchange, I did wrote ah wrotede everything down to the T.
00:33:17
Speaker
feeling healing He only explained when when they came to him. was like, hey, why why didn't that plane get loaded? Why didn't line D take? He was like, because Airman Huddleston said not to. That was it.
00:33:28
Speaker
That was it. That was the entire story. Nobody read what I wrote. The guy didn't explain everything I said. It was Airman Huddleston said not to. So that's what they went with. And that went up the chain all the way up to the fucking wing kingdom.
00:33:43
Speaker
And then that's where it came back down the key the the the chain to call me the fuck in and get my ass handed to me. When I got in, first person I talked to was my shop chief. And I explained to him everything that fucking happened. booze, everything. And he looked at me. He's like, what?
00:33:59
Speaker
I was like, yeah, it's all in my report that I left during switchover. And I explained it to Parker, blah, blah, blah. He's like, all we were told is you told Lion D not to drop off the trailer. I was like, nobody fucking communicates.
00:34:10
Speaker
But I was disobedient because I didn't, quote, unquote, just obey. I didn't just you know leave the shit there. you know I made a judgment call. you know I thought outside the box. I just didn't obey that day. I almost got my ass handed to me.
00:34:25
Speaker
But once the one the truth is found out and once the wing king, I never stepped foot in front of the wing king or anything. Once he heard the truth, he was like, okay and the only thing i was told is you should have called the captain just to give him a heads up you should just woke him up i was like okay next time i'll do that that was it that was the end of the story that was into the story it was i scared because i was disobedient yes but at the end of the day it turned out i did the right thing so yeah was drinking out of job common
00:34:59
Speaker
Maybe over in France, yeah. I don't know, but not not here in the States. no Remember, this was a french this was a french this was a French Air Force unit, you know a little squadron over over in Alaska playing war with us, playing pretend war. It was a training exercise. Yeah.
00:35:17
Speaker
Yeah, in America, no, we don't there's do we don't drink on the fly line. That's a big no-no. Maybe back in like the 70s and 60s and shit, but not now, structured with common sense.
00:35:28
Speaker
But maybe that's a thing over in France. They fucking drink and do their job. Who the hell do you know with common sense, Mandy? In case you're...
00:35:43
Speaker
But see that again, you're not a cog in the machine. The French drink all the time. I wouldn't know. but So did the war come to end? Did the French just surrender? oh i've You know, honestly, I don't even know who's the bad guy, good guy in that situation.
00:36:02
Speaker
I do remember we did a joint exercise with Japan, and Japan kicked our asses with our own jets. Kicked our asses. Just saying. but These are a lot more structured. They're a lot more team-oriented. I mean, the Japanese are truly on the same fucking page.
00:36:19
Speaker
Yeah. I mean, I'm sure they have a title on the rest, but nothing like we have here. Now, had it been somebody else sitting in that chair that day,
00:36:29
Speaker
France probably would have got their bombs. Maybe nothing would have actually have happened, you know, because they know how to handle their booze on the front line with explosives. I don't know that. I was a stupid airman. And, you know, nothing probably could have happened. And that sort of went off without a kick and no must, no fuss.
00:36:45
Speaker
But the fact that I'm not going to shut them down about getting their ordinance because they were all drunk.
00:36:53
Speaker
They didn't say shit to me. Mock called me and I explained to Mock. And Mock was, okay, cool. And that was another thing. like I explained to to an outside entity, too, that's within the chain.
00:37:03
Speaker
And the it was like a game of telephone is what happened. Yeah. Interesting.
00:37:14
Speaker
I don't. um i believe that, too. I do. I believe that. I believe that the French likes to drink. They love their wine. I'm going to lie. I love their wine, too.
00:37:26
Speaker
But we're so off the rails here. i had a point in that. But... You didn't just follow along with orders yeah and do what you were supposed to do. You put a kink in the chain.
00:37:39
Speaker
Same with Ohio. That's same here in Kentucky. Yeah, that's some... Yeah, i think I think it's okay to be disobedient. I think it's hard for us to be disobedient.
00:37:52
Speaker
It is. It's hard for us to, because even when even even in that moment when I said no, ah knew I knew there was going be potential bolt blowback. i didn't know But you also knew was the right thing to do. Yeah, yeah.
00:38:07
Speaker
More people need to have that wherewithal. Yeah, but see, here's the thing. Let's say, let's say the the spring, the Milgram experiment. Let's say there was somebody sitting there telling me, you can't say, no, you have to do it. You have to do it.
00:38:20
Speaker
And they'll take responsibility. Then I probably would have been like, okay, give them the bombs. But in that moment, I was the one that was in, I was the one responsible.
00:38:32
Speaker
but You think maybe you think maybe that's that's something the Milgram experiment highlights? The moment you feel you don't have any response responsibility for the outcome of the decision, you can just make whatever decision you want, regardless how bad it is, or just be told what to do, I guess.
Authority, Rebellion, and Societal Norms
00:38:48
Speaker
I don't know. Look at the amount of rebellion in our culture, though.
00:38:53
Speaker
What rebellion in our culture? I don't think I'm going to bring something up and it's going to be an ugly thing to talk about, but I don't give a shit. A bunch of people decided that they didn't agree with what happened in the election on January 6th.
00:39:06
Speaker
They rebelled. Mm hmm. yeah well I would say that was a rebellion, but in the grand scope of things, like compared to like ah past rebellions and what the and why and the reason, and that was just a bunch of pissed off people confused.
00:39:22
Speaker
A bunch of confused, pissed off people. I wouldn't even call that a rebellion. I would call it fucking travesty. It wasn't law-abiding citizenry. It wasn't law-abiding citizenry. no it did right it wasn't It wasn't. I would call it a riot, yeah.
00:39:38
Speaker
But Orion in and of itself can be a rebellion. Yeah. I just think i a real rebellion? Something they didn't believe in, something they didn't agree with, and they rebelled. Yeah.
00:39:49
Speaker
was short-lived, it was over soon, but the point is they they raised hell, and they got noticed. Yeah. Yeah, they got noticed. And a whole bunch of other people were emboldened by that act.
00:40:06
Speaker
They were. I'm just saying it had an effect. Was it the intended a desired effect? I would say probably. Maybe they wanted more reaction, but. They didn't, no, their intended, their intention was to stop the, to stop the certification of the election.
00:40:25
Speaker
And they didn't. They postponed it. They paused it. But I would say that was more of an action. That movement grew because of that action. Yeah, that was more. Okay, so this ah here's the thing with the word rebellion. and And because you can look at what they did on Jan 6th as a terroristic act, but one person's terrorist is another person's rebel.
00:40:46
Speaker
rebel So, ah i mean, was it a rebellion? Yes. In the eyes of the people who were doing it, absolutely. I won't argue that. That is that is a true that is their truth.
00:40:57
Speaker
They were they were they were a rebellion in their own eyes. i won't you know I can't sit here and tell somebody that they're, well, can, but what's the point? But if you look at the you look at the historical dialectical, the whole whole thing, it wasn't a rebellion and in in the sense,
00:41:17
Speaker
of it being a proper rebellion, I guess. Mark, on point, watching and listening. Thanks again, Mark, for being here, buddy. We have a huge anti-government sentiment in the United States. We, the people, hate our government.
00:41:29
Speaker
I don't hate the government. I personally hate the government. I just have no faith in the government. I don't believe the government does anything useful. No, not anything, but does very little useful to the average person.
00:41:41
Speaker
The government's there to prop itself up. The government's there to get rich for the people in the government's And the government's there to screw us over every chance they can because John Q. Taxpayer um bears the brunt of all of their stupidity, all of their greed and all of that graft.
00:42:03
Speaker
I like this. Thank you, Mark Schaefer. You're making me think this morning. Yeah, Mark Schaefer's awesome, man. He's a good friend. We have a huge anti-government sentiment in the U.S. We, the people, hate our government.
00:42:16
Speaker
I think yes and no. I think there's an anti-government sentiment only in the vein of we don't, depending on what side you're on, you don't like whatever current government is in, or political party is in the control of the government.
00:42:32
Speaker
um I think the majority of us want a government, maybe a different form of government, but definitely we're not ah an anarchical and anarchist society. like for us for for For us to have a huge anti-government sentiment, we would have to have a huge a huge showing of anarchists.
00:42:53
Speaker
And I say that being an anarchist because I so i am anti-government, totally anti-government. And another thing against your point I don't think we're a huge anti-government country or have a huge anti-government sentiment is like the majority of us are pro cop and cops are part of the government. I just don't think, I don't think the majority of us really sit down and think about what our government is, how it functions.
00:43:19
Speaker
think a lot of it just, it's a lot of ignorance that is confused for anti-government sentiment. Me, honestly, I think that's what it is.
00:43:31
Speaker
I'm asking Google box, what percentage of Americans are pro-government? I bet it's somewhere in the 70s.
00:43:43
Speaker
High 70s, maybe low eighty s
00:43:47
Speaker
80s. As of Pew Research Center figures in 2024, June, 22% of Americans trust the government to act in the right way most of the time.
00:43:58
Speaker
Separate survey, August 2025, partnership for public service. One third of Americans, 33%, trust the federal government. Trust yes by institution with a Gallup poll showing higher confidence in local government compared to federal institutions.
00:44:17
Speaker
Yeah, see, that's but that's different than being anti-government. I mean, you could still be pro-government why i'm looking not and not trust your current government is all I'm saying. like there I mean, what I'm saying is, like, saying I don't trust my government is saying that, well, I'm comparing that to a government that I can envision that I would trust.
00:44:36
Speaker
That's not saying, regardless if I trust or not, I don't want a government. That's not anti-governance. That's what Mark just said is a more succinct way to say what I think. Tribal government is what they want. It's for them, by them. For them, by them. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. yeah Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, definitely. That's why I don't like governments. I 100% believe that we are not on the government's interest list.
00:44:58
Speaker
They don't care about us other than the resource that we can provide for them. and We're cogs in a machine. that's why they like I think the government used to work, but now it's the government that just gets worked over and over and over again. that's when when When the government outlaws homelessness and makes it illegal not to basically be not working,
00:45:22
Speaker
like It's like there's this sentiment if you're not producing, you're not worth anything as a citizen and you shouldn't have any rights or you shouldn't be given any help or anything of the sort.
00:45:35
Speaker
And I think i think that's because and that show and that I think that's a testament of the government looking at us as resources more than people.
00:45:47
Speaker
Absolutely. Did you catch that? They take your gender away, too. Oh, well. little throwback to Tuesday, buddy. I mean, if you guys want to talk.
00:46:00
Speaker
Speaking of of abolishment, hashtag abolish gender. It's stupid. ah But I am a radical thinker, so we're not going to go down there. But blaming the government for where we are in 2016 is like blaming the hand puppet instead of the...
00:46:19
Speaker
But blaming the government for where we are in 2016 is like blaming the hand puppet instead of the wealth wearing it. I agree. think.
00:46:29
Speaker
like scene Well, i know I know what he's i know he's i know he's talking about, though.
00:46:41
Speaker
I'm not smart.
00:46:44
Speaker
I don't even want to say it's the wealth wearing it either. I think they're they're they're part of it. but i think Money pays for laws. it's it's this I think it's a system issue, not a people issue.
00:46:59
Speaker
that's I know that sounds weird because the people we allow the system to We don't keep our systems in check. We think these things are like sentient somehow. Like look like like when we talk about capitalism, like free free market, Captain, just let it do what it does. Like why would you why would a human sit there and create any kind of tool and go, let's just turn it on and let it do what it does.
00:47:23
Speaker
It's so retarded to me.
Scientific Risks and Misunderstandings
00:47:26
Speaker
Well, the the original test for the atomic bomb, there was that, a serious think tank that's had a 2.7% chance that it would ignite the atmosphere and they did it anyway.
00:47:39
Speaker
I think a 2% chance is entirely too much. I don't know. I don't know. It might have ignited our atmosphere 2% chance, but still that 2% is enough.
00:47:52
Speaker
How are you going to make that decision for everybody on a 2% chance?
00:48:00
Speaker
2% chance of something happening is pretty decent odds. Yeah. But is it worth an ah an atomic weapons test?
00:48:11
Speaker
That's what I'm saying.
00:48:14
Speaker
Was it that important?
00:48:19
Speaker
No, not for a weapons test. Does it continue to be a 2% chance every time everyone's dropped?
00:48:26
Speaker
What's that? Does it continue being a 2% chance every time one's dropped or they know now that it doesn't? I'm just curious. I would think, no, and the the two chances would would would go down.
00:48:39
Speaker
okay I wouldn't say, I wouldn't, they probably wouldn't go down to zero. They'd probably be like 0.00000011112, whatever. I'm just making shit up right now. what's that what's that What's that adage? 100% of people who start throwing out throwing out statistics which is just all bullshit. That's why I follow Sheldon and be like, fact check me.
00:49:01
Speaker
I'm an idiot. He's a professional idiot. I'm just a jackass.
00:49:07
Speaker
But...
00:49:12
Speaker
Any more thoughts on the whole Milgram experiment? i just the The whole discussion about authoritarianism. I don't even understand what this means, Mark. I just ah Googled it.
00:49:24
Speaker
Duroch is a misremembered reference to the Duroch belt trick, a demonstration illustrating the concept of quantum spin half particles. The trick shows that while a 360 degree rotation of a normal object is equivalent to no rotation, an electron requires a 720 degree 4pi rotation to return to its original state due to its spin half nature
00:49:57
Speaker
that's a little bit more sorry That's like when they that's like when that that big scare when they fired up the heart of the height hydron hydron collider the hold on the don't the big fucking circle thing over Dutchland.
00:50:11
Speaker
Yeah, LRC. Yeah, like that they were going to create some like black hole and fucking destroy the world there some weird shit.
00:50:22
Speaker
he talked He talked way more intelligently about the point I made. Yes, I was like, yeah yeah, that was more specific. i like that.
00:50:35
Speaker
Paul Durack was a so physicist that made the bet about the atmosphere igniting. Oh, oh, okay, okay. man He just he just it spoke more intelligently about the point that I was making. All right.
00:50:50
Speaker
Mark is a fucking genius. He's a really well-read guy. Super fucking smart, super down-to-earth, too. He's really cool guy. Should have him up one night for nonsense to chill and talk open, huh?
00:51:01
Speaker
Dude, people but probably dig that. That movie was so good. It was a lot of inaccuracies but for for the sake of entertainment. And I don't think the love interest really needed to be in it. But for what it was, was a good movie.
00:51:16
Speaker
I really liked it. Huh? After I started to watch it and then we were talking about it a little bit. and were like, yeah the love interest. And was like, oh, really? They're going to Hollywood it up? Never mind.
00:51:26
Speaker
and don't want to watch Pearl Harbor again. No, thanks. I saw it once. That's good enough for me. I typically wouldn't watch i typically wouldn't have watched Oppenheimer because it's too war-y, Jason. I'm going to be not a big war more movie person.
00:51:43
Speaker
However, was more of a biopic of Oppenheimer. It had somebody playing Albert Einstein. ah like, okay. The nerd in me wants to watch this. i like a good biopic.
00:51:55
Speaker
Yeah. but war movies, not so much. it's not It's just because because of the Hollywood. So there's this there's this fiction there's this fiction war movie out there where I think Jessica Biel plays in it.
00:52:09
Speaker
I forgot the name of it. and what it It involves um an AI-driven smart air fighting aircraft. Fucking right now. Anyway, there was a part in the movie where they dropped this munitions from this aircraft.
00:52:24
Speaker
And I'm looking at the munitions. I know what it is. But the way they made it function the movie, like if they shot it off like a missile. I was like, that's not how that works. And my brain got i mad at that movie.
00:52:36
Speaker
To this day, I will never watch it to the point where I've forgotten the name of it. But I know Jessica Biel plays in it. She's a horrible actress. So if I see see her on on the cover, if I see her on the cover and that playing, I'm like, that's not a movie to watch. Like my brain knows, stay away from Jessica Biel.
00:52:54
Speaker
I'm just saying. Jessica Biel is no, no. I guess I do have my movie head on this morning. Speaking of movie hats, what are we doing tomorrow night for our nonsense and chill?
00:53:08
Speaker
Oh, you're going to... Brittany is joining us, and we're going to talk stoner flicks and do a mini deep dive into... Or mini impennyated dive into um um Dazed and Confused.
00:53:22
Speaker
That's tomorrow and night 8 o'clock. We're here on Sensible Network. Horrible movie with the mantra I live my life Why are doing stoner movies?
Upcoming Topics and Closing Remarks
00:53:30
Speaker
It's not as good as Because September, it starts with an S. i Yes, it does. so That is true.
00:53:41
Speaker
Because it's my birthday month and I'm a stoner, goddammit. Birthday month, what day? but Did you hear my days and confused joke?
00:53:50
Speaker
Did you hear my days and confused joke? I don't think I did. I said days and confused. It's a horrible movie, but it's the mantra at which I live my life. yeah Days and confused. What day of what?
00:54:02
Speaker
Your birth? I don't know. It's sometime this month, man. i don't even know how old I'm turning. is it 20th? No, it's not the 20th. That's when you're getting married. That is accurate. 16 days, my friend.
00:54:15
Speaker
I do want to say this. That weekend, like the 19th, there will not be a Nonsense and Chill. I might throw up of a rerun. If I get to it, i'm gonna be pretty busy that day um driving and stuff.
00:54:29
Speaker
friday night uh there might be a movie show i just won't probably be on it no no there won't be a movie show is what i'm saying yeah because we got a rehearsal dinner yeah and we got the rehearsal dinner then we're going to the fire efforts maybe we'll go live with the yep i'm there with the plus one so the worst plus one ever yeah ah she dropped kicking all y'all he bounces off my fat ass
00:55:03
Speaker
skiy little rails you gonna hurt me Which means there probably won't be a Saturday night show or they're probably We had probably won't be a Saturday night show either. So Yeah, yeah, I don't know what I might for everybody sorry gang.
00:55:19
Speaker
I'll have my phone with me, so I might go live from the reception for a little bit and just do a little, hey, checking in on a Saturday night type thing. I don't know. i haven't decided.
00:55:32
Speaker
It's just mostly up to Glick. But it's also if Sue allows it. She's the boss. Again, it doesn't care as long as it doesn't interfere with any of the receptionist stuff.
00:55:44
Speaker
yeah I want to talk about hierarchical systems again real quick because I hate i think I misspoke. Yes, I'm against them. i'm I'm against forced ones. I'm against conditioned ones. I'm against indoctrinated.
00:55:56
Speaker
But there is there are there's what's known as natural hierarchies or or a proper authority on something. So i do i do want to i do want to make that clarification.
00:56:10
Speaker
I don't think anybody was calling it out. Yeah. Well, I know, I know, but I know nobody was calling me out. But like Sue, since she, it's her wedding and it, that's like the natural hierarchy. You know, that's just how that day is played.
00:56:26
Speaker
And I get that. I respect that. So yeah, that's how, you know,
00:56:33
Speaker
just saying.
00:56:37
Speaker
but if she told me But if she told me to shock Michael with the dog collar, I would still say yes. yeah Because she told me to. not Not because I don't want to. Because she told me to.
00:56:52
Speaker
I'm just going to do nothing. I'm not pulling the lever.
00:56:57
Speaker
that's You know what? I have a better idea for next Tuesday. We'll continue trolley talk, but we'll come up with our own. We we have we have enough time. You come up with some. You come up with like five, I'll come up with five.
00:57:10
Speaker
And we'll we'll just have fun. and It'll be like, we won't tell each other. We'll just, let's do that. Because I know there was one you had. If you want to throw some trolley ah trolley problems at us, have fun with that.
00:57:21
Speaker
Check out the last two Tuesdays of shows if you were interested. We talked to Trolley. It was a lot of fun. Yes, yes. Because I know there was a trolley problem you've been wanting to ask me, but I don't think that the opportunity. It didn't come up. I forgot about it again.
00:57:35
Speaker
who So this way we'll continue trolley talk for at least one more Tuesday. I have fun with it, man. For sure. that was That was a lot of fun. The trolley problem. That was a good call.
00:57:47
Speaker
I haven't even thought of that in years. I forgot that was a thing.
00:57:52
Speaker
Every day is a bunch of choices. It's a daily trolley problem.
00:57:58
Speaker
I swear as you get older, everything's a moral dilemma. Do I hurt my back or not? more i you know i don't know.
00:58:06
Speaker
um sorry, that's a mortality dilemma.
00:58:11
Speaker
what the allah For the Tuesday following that, oh let me let me let me scrounge around in the bag of the internet and find some thought experiments we can have fun with. i know there's some more out there. so But on that note, sir,
00:58:27
Speaker
I want to thank the audience for sticking around and hanging out with us. Mark Schaefer, you're cool dude. Thanks for popping in. Mandy, as usual. Thank you, darling. And let's see. Was that all that popped in? Yep.
00:58:40
Speaker
Yep. Anybody else that was out there listening, thank you as well for sticking around. If you dig us and you want to, you know, hear some more of our chronic contemplations or the rest of the network, hit that like, hit that share and subscribe, please.
00:58:55
Speaker
Share us out. Share us out to your grannies. nine out nine out of ten of us, or of us, wait, nine out of grannies approve. I'm going to have to upgrade that one. I'm actually, I'm, I think after a while, a joke gets, needs to retire.
00:59:13
Speaker
And I think that one needs to retire. So I'll come with something. I'll give network thumbs way up.
00:59:19
Speaker
Yes, sir. That one will never go away. Michael, is there anything you'd like to leave the audience with today? Be great today because you deserve it.
00:59:31
Speaker
I agree. on On that note, peace. Later, skaters.
00:59:46
Speaker
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