Become a Creator today!Start creating today - Share your story with the world!
Start for free
00:00:00
00:00:01
Episode 38: Nina holds her own.
36 Plays24 days ago
Our friend, Nina, comes on to discuss her path to mental health, views on gender and more!
Recommended
Transcript
Unique Caffeinated Wine Experience
00:00:31
Speaker
which is it's caffeinated, fortified wine. It fucks you up. Right. Right. Made by monks. Looks like cough syrup. Of course it's made by monks. It does. It tastes like cough syrup too. and But this they did started selling this and I picked one up from the from the shop. It's buckfast and lemonade and I've never had it before. So red wine based aperitif with added caffeine mixed with lemonade fancy. The word aperitif is being awful generous. I'm going to taste this.
00:01:15
Speaker
Oh, that's not terrible. Yay. So is it like mead? but no no it's like it's like yeah we Have you ever had pork wine? Yeah. Like pork wine if you made it for children.
00:01:30
Speaker
ah added ca for them With added If you ever come over, um i will get I will let you try it. Rookie tried it and his face did one of these.
00:01:44
Speaker
um ah it is It is so common here in this town that I live in. It's called, it's well known in Northern Ireland as Lurgan Champagne. Oh boy. and They sell it by the pallet. Oh man. Okay. Okay.
Podcast Introduction with Ian, Stewart, and Nina
00:02:00
Speaker
okay we go yeah Hey kids, welcome to Toxic Masculinity with Ian and Stewart. This week we have our friend Nina with us. How are we doing everybody? Everybody good? I'm trying to get drunk.
00:02:13
Speaker
Yep. You're trying to get drunk. I am just going to get ready to watch Tyson fight. So I'm probably going to get drunk too. Why not? mean it's not Jesus Christ. man that's not that's for That's in five hours. and two isnt Isn't it like eight o'clock our time?
00:02:28
Speaker
yeah talk our time um netflix That's two hours. Yeah, but that's when it starts. They don't, they're not fighting until 4 AM. They got plenty of time to get drunk. So that's 11 o'clock tonight.
00:02:39
Speaker
Yes. Yeah. For you. I have one drink, but then I'm more of a recreational smoker, medical smoker. I don't know what you're talking about. I don't know what you're talking about. So I will partake in that. I'm not leaving that in because it's not legal to do that in Florida and I don't want you to get in trouble. Oh, take that out. But I have a card. Oh, you have a card? You have a medical card? Yeah. Oh, then you are a medical user, not a recreational user, correct? When I'm out of state.
00:03:07
Speaker
yeah um mean when I'm in Nevada and California. There you go. I don't have no idea what you're talking about at all. I'm going to take a drink of my beer. Okay, Nina. Go ahead.
Nina's Insights on Masculinity
00:03:19
Speaker
Yes. What does masculinity mean to you? Oh my gosh. You don't even know. This is like 48 hours of ruminating on this question. And the thing is. It's a personal question and everyone tries to answer it like it's not, but I'm always asking their person. Oh, it is 100% personal. So.
00:03:37
Speaker
I'm going to preface by saying, like you said, it differs from every single human to another due to their cultural backgrounds, but masculinity to me. I have this whole script written out, y'all. This is just this is like my favorite topic. a Side note, y'all didn't even introduce me. Hi. ready her I said our friend Nina.
00:04:03
Speaker
What else do we need to know? I don't know. now She's like tripping out. She's like, I got a whole script. I can't remember it. Cause this is such an important question to me. And I think i like, this is like my life's work. So I'm like, Oh, I'm going to, when you guys told me about the podcast, I couldn't have been more excited. Like this to me is like but my favorite topic. to gender I'm not sure that yeah I should be doing it, but we're doing it. So we're doing it anyway. so they good Somebody had to thank you. Why, why is it your favorite topic, Nina?
00:04:32
Speaker
but Can she answer the first question? I'm going to get back to the question. She clearly seems like she wants a little a little background before she answers the question. Thank you, Sudet. You'd be a good therapist. Thank you, Sudet. Stop doing Scottish accent.
00:04:50
Speaker
um Wait, what was the question? So, why why is it your life's worth, and then what does masculinity mean to you? I need more beer. Love that. So, the reason why it is so personal to me is something that my own gender identity as a multiracial, multicultural person, growing up in a very, like,
00:05:13
Speaker
by by My god binary world of men and women growing up in Miami and Miami, Florida it was very Like 99 Hispanic. Um, so there was these like strict rules of what is masculinity and femininity and everyone kind of like Has been practicing those strict kind of ideals and rules for hundreds and hundreds of years but then little on me comes along and then I just wanted to like break all those barriers and I found myself struggling with my own identity so
00:05:47
Speaker
Fast forward so let's let's say i was like 13 14 dealing with that fast forward to now i'm 33 and um i'm a therapist working to be licensed and there's just like a huge untapped section of the population that struggles with this and it's not only people who already identify in the lgbt qia community but also i mean straight cisgendered men like yourself and my own my own husband.
Cultural Perspectives on Gender
00:06:15
Speaker
So I think everyone faces with how they want to um show themselves off to the world. And yeah, masculinity, I guess, for me, our answer is as a Cuban American, like traditional roles for masculine, that would be like breadwinners and i having a more like aggressive and tough
00:06:36
Speaker
Like kind of demeanor or personality you would set the rules for the family and the home so what you say goes is kind of like like a hierarchy. The man is like the head of the household. That's just the way it is. But now I see gender as a spectrum and masculinity. It's a mix of yes traditional.
00:06:56
Speaker
but also modern viewpoints. Um, so not only people who identify as male can be masculine. It's such a, it's a spectrum. We define it. We define it. Yeah. I just, I love it so much. just This is whole topic because I guess, yeah, selfishly, but not selfishly started with myself and just because of my lived experience realized, Oh, damn, this is other people feel like this too. Yeah.
00:07:26
Speaker
ya It's nice to know that other people feel that way too and have their thoughts and struggle with those thoughts as well, that it's not just you on your own. yeah um It's something when I used to write jokes.
00:07:44
Speaker
I always just go, is this funny? And I go, well, I find it funny. And it's the same argument. If I find it funny, we're we're all individuals, but we're all individuals together. Do you know what I mean? If you find something funny, if you think a particular thought, generally most other people have some similar thoughts. Yeah, it's cultural. Same thing. Yeah. Which is be quite comforting, I find. Yeah.
00:08:11
Speaker
Yeah, it's 100% less, you know, you're all it's okay. It's an okay thing. Yeah. and And nobody's got everybody's fucking figured out. If they did, then we wouldn't all be here like struggling with shit. So yeah. And that also, I think shaped my viewpoint on that. I was raised like Christian Catholic mix, like my parents and my family were Catholic, but then I was raised in like a private Christian school. And although I appreciate that aspect of religion, how will I,
00:08:39
Speaker
how it was used to shape me and my own ideals and morals and this, that and the other. I completely like do not identify with it now. And I'm an existentialist. I'm an atheist. I'm a philosophicalist. What is a big fancy word? Use the big words over here and make them sound like whatever. Yeah. So, yeah, I don't know that really just seems like, yeah, we define we're just critters on the planet trying to figure things out.
00:09:09
Speaker
You said in your Cuban-American household growing up, yeah the men are the top of the that top of the tree.
00:09:24
Speaker
is that would they be bread bread winner yes probably in that time head of the house yeah the big family decisions um it would be see that's kind of it's slightly it would be slightly different here because like, although the man would be the breadwinner, you know, back in the day, the breadwinner yeah of the household and more than likely a certain amount of the disciplinarian, Irish mums forced to be reckoned with and generally inside the house, they would be in charge. And I kind of get the feeling that, um,
00:10:10
Speaker
Hispanic? Is that the right word? Yeah! that kind of culture yeah culture would be the same. they They seem like you seem like very strong willed, confident women who wouldn't take any shit. Yeah, that's definitely true as well. If you have ever seen my big fat Greek wedding, it's very similar where men is the head, but women are the neck, the turn. That was the idea of the family structure. Yeah, that's the idea of the family structure. um But i what I realized, like,
00:10:44
Speaker
as I was training to be a therapist and even like my day to day I realized there's no good or bad. We can't label something wrong or right because it's just is we were born into this. And then it's your decision whether you'd like to continue these cultural norms or change them. But just I mean, it it goes hand in hand with technology. I mean, y'all 200 300 years ago, we'd have to grow our own food. We didn't have refrigerated. We were too busy to be thinking about gender. We were too busy to like we're just trying to like be fed and keep like our babies alive because they're dying like so everyone had a role because that's what environment like women got pregnant so you can't be out hunting all the time because you have to be in and like it just played out that way but now that we have evolved as like critters as humans to have technology because we don't have to worry about the
00:11:37
Speaker
the
00:11:40
Speaker
that more necessary life or death items like ah food, warmth,
Nina's Journey to Becoming a Therapist
00:11:45
Speaker
shelter. Not that people don't want worry about those things, but on a general social scale, we don't worry about those things anymore. so Yeah, i think I worry about what shampoo, 100%. Yeah, going to the shops is easier than going out and hunting. so you know who Who used my my cuticle cream?
00:12:09
Speaker
love peter go green a ooh i feel like i I'm getting I'm feeling a lot better cuz I'm getting what I was really hoping to get out is out So now I'm chill. I'm relaxed. Let's just So, what do you know do you mean? What do you mean by there's no good or bad? You said there's no good or bad.
00:12:29
Speaker
Oh, yeah. So ah when you're trying to be a therapist, you you really have to work on your the tool. Therapists are just tools to help you. You have no bias. Therapists are tools. for here too me just sh try not to laugh I'm trying not to laugh. I'm in disagreement. I can call my therapist a to a tool. you're Apparently you're a tool.
00:12:57
Speaker
Anyway, sorry. What are you saying? No, I love this. I love this. In the sense that you can't have your own opinions. like I remember in one of the first classes at the beginning of the program, they said, how would you feel when we're talking about ethics and blah, blah, blah? How would you feel about working with a client who maybe brings something forward like um they're struggling with a decision to have an abortion? And all of us is like, you can't judge. There's no good or bad because it is based off that person's experience of life.
00:13:25
Speaker
Because one choice to you you're weighing different factors in that person like you have not lived their life. You don't know their Anything every single human has a different experience so no good bad i learn to not have judgment but one lady was like i You think that goes out from micro to macro, oh Just curious what you think Cause I mean, there's clearly bad things that we all, but we all agree that they're bad. So yeah. Oh yes. I hope you guys don't think I'm this land i'm just trying to, I'm trying to get you expand on, on the phrase that you said is all, that's all. Yeah. yeah It's more of a, you, you can't, you're not there to pass judgment on yes it's very what anyone is saying. Like some, it if you're deeply religious and someone says, I'm feeling suicidal,
00:14:20
Speaker
Well, that would go against your religious, you're giving up the gift of God thing. And you have to practice psychotherapy. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So you can't you can't really be judgy because other side of you are judgy, the person's going to shut down and they'll fucking listen to you. Yeah. So it's like when you put that therapist's head on, you switch that off. You become like, you just get so focused and hone in on the case of the person. But that has to be hard.
00:14:47
Speaker
It was, but that it was a lot of hours of therapy and having the the the the professor just watch and record and watch and and read and study. Does that switch, just out of interest, does that switch of being able to turn off the the the judgment switch? So when you turn off the judgment switch inside your head, whenever you're working with someone, does that help you not take the work home with you?
00:15:15
Speaker
If you know what I mean, so that's a good question. Oh, that's a good question. Um, it's funny because I, that, that judgment switch now, I, like this is for me. I guess I'd be interested to see how my other peers have graduated with me too and practice with me, how they feel, but I don't have a judgment switch on or off anymore. It's just like, I just don't have it anymore. How do you feel about that? I'm just kidding.
00:15:39
Speaker
um My professors always said, never use that. That's, no use that. yeah Yeah. How does that make you feel? How does that make you feel? Expand on that. So i'm not looking you're you're looking to get, you're you're looking to get a license, right? Is that what we're doing? Yep. And what does that entail for you?
00:16:04
Speaker
Yeah, so every state is different so they're trying to make it where it's a nationalized like a board Test exam thing where once you pass your your license, but right now it's per state So in florida, I have to have two years of supervision so not only the three and a half years of my master's study and the hours of intern my internship site and having clients and hundreds of hours of that but I have to take an exam and then have two years of a supervised therapist reviewing all my cases. so like that Does that mean they're in the room with you or they're going over your notes and stuff like that? Yeah, reviewing notes and then two hours a week, you have to have it down that you you met. So it's two hours case review. So when I had case review in my school, it was just sit there for two hours. Tell me about A, tell me about B and then just like going through, it's like, okay, what
00:16:59
Speaker
Because that's another thing in therapy. I didn't realize I'm like, oh, we'll just talk. It'll be fun. No, you have to use types of therapy that have been published, like scientifically supported and published. You can't just be like willy nilly like, oh, I just want to ask these questions. There's a reason and there's an order to it. And you can only go based off the ones that have been proven. And it's not proof. It's like any other kind of kind of science. Yeah, I mean, that makes sense, though.
00:17:28
Speaker
You want to use fact based stuff and you don't want to just be like going off. And I mean, talking might help some people, but, you know, you actually got get to the root of things for them and help guide them to certain things. And um yeah, of all of the people, I'm not asking for a specific person here just to be clear of all the kinds of people that you've worked with. What have you honed in on the most like a like a rough idea of the kind of person you like to help and talk to? Oh, it's a good question.
00:17:57
Speaker
See, initially, I thought I'd love like the older population, existential therapy, like people like grief therapy. And then I work with kids and like, shit, I like kids now. Not for myself. I like to work. Not for me. Not for me. That IUD is doing fantastic.
00:18:18
Speaker
ah It is holding on. come and I guess gender and stuff like the family, a lot of family therapy, couples therapy. When I try to actually really enjoy family and couples therapy. It must be like soap opera for time. It is. Loki is juicy.
00:18:40
Speaker
yeah Loki is juicy because I'm like, shit it makes you feel normal. You're like, damn, all families. We all suck. we just We're just trying to figure things out.
00:18:52
Speaker
And maybe my home life is is so bad right now. and I'm just kidding. is No, I'm sure you're not judging people that way. Just listening and trying to help. Um, what, what did you, what made you want to go this way? I know you were doing like other stuff before this, but was a long row. It's funny enough that was actually my mom is a teacher, but she gripped um studied psychology in school. So then I had an interest and I used to watch Oprah. I used to watch ah extreme horror like not extreme cheapskates. Yeah, that anything on TLC. Okay. And I just had an interest in people. And then I went to college, I had my first psychology like 101.
00:19:36
Speaker
And it's the professor basically talked us out of it. She like, it's horrible. You have hundreds and hundreds of hours to do. And then after you graduate, it's years. And I was like, damn, F this. I want money. So I went into pre-med. So I have my bachelor's in pre-med. I was going to go on to medical school. And then and I was going to be a PA. Then I was going to be an OT. Long story short, how funny how the turntables turn.
00:20:04
Speaker
Mm hmm. Things always happen. You land where you're supposed to be. You land where you're supposed to be. As they say. $100,000 later, it' student loans in 13 years. Jesus Christ. So you are very good friends of ours and so is your other half.
00:20:22
Speaker
Yes. So speaking of masculinity, what was what were the some of the things that drew you to Darren over there? Oh, this is spicy. OK. OK. I mean, so so those are listening that may not because we're all part of a group that have been talking for
Identity, Relationships, and Societal Perceptions
00:20:44
Speaker
years now. So we're all very good friends. So that's why I'm asking her because the door is closed. So I don't think Darren can hear much either. So.
00:20:53
Speaker
No, you can't hear you guys at all. And we have been together over 10 years now, like we're 10 and a half or so now. And it's what? do So Next chapter, kiddos, sexuality and gender. So I think there's a lot of confusion in the world. I promise. Listen, I have ADHD. I will get back to your question. You're fine. You're fine. You're fine. But gender and sexuality go hand in hand. And I think people confuse them and they don't understand like, well, you're attracted to and gets you turned on is not the same as your gender expression or what you want to put on your flesh or behave or your decisions you make.
00:21:33
Speaker
But I digress. um I guess it's important to say I identify as a she-they, as a she-they. um And I am pansexual.
00:21:46
Speaker
So my husband is a cisgendered, straight, white man. So of all the things you could have gone for, you went for vanilla. Speaking as a man myself. I know. also I didn't wait 30 years to come out of the closet and marry a cisgender straight man, but he's just so wonderful. He's just, it's the human and um also If anyone's out there listening and you're single just go on instagram Look for those people that are in theme parks. No, there's some good ones in there Yes,
00:22:24
Speaker
yes you're able to write dr. Seuss right and have a good time and not not feel like your whole Identity is threatened because you wanted to ride a ride like you guys are So that's what attracted me to Darren. Like he's just a fun, normal dude. And we got to know each other and he's just, he goes, when he watched Drag Race. When I was in the hospital, he was watching Drag Race by himself. I don't know if he was lying to make me happy. Oh, I'm Drag Race with that too. But then I got him hooked on Drag Race. He's just- Listen, Henry Rollins was a judge on Drag Race. So, you know, he can't really go wrong.
00:22:57
Speaker
Slay. Slay queen. His story about being on drag race is actually pretty funny. If you haven't seen it before, you should look it up. um he's He's really good friends. He's really good friends with RuPaul. Back in the 80s in New York, like the the punk kids in New York and the the scene kids were close because they were all like outcasts. So they knew each other. and They met in New York. I think in the 90s is when he met RuPaul though.
00:23:20
Speaker
Well, yeah, they're like good friends, just a little side story there. But so he's wonderful. what What else? Like, what kind of masculine traits do you guys see? And before you go into that question, Ian, I'm sorry to cut you off. Please. What you were saying there about coming out as pansexual,
00:23:39
Speaker
posec gender fluid yeah gender fluid, pansexual, beautiful and and You married a straight cisgendered white vanilla male. Well, not the vanilla part. Yeah. I mean, just add the basics, the basic outline is vanilla. Yeah, yeah, yeah. yeah' the idea So yeah, the single first first order cookie cutter, right? I'm learning things. I already know about Darren right now. and
00:24:13
Speaker
ah
00:24:16
Speaker
Yeah. So do the people ever go? Because pete I know people fucking get really hung up on this shit. They do. So has anyone ever went, but surely you're just straight thin? Who? Oh, me? People. People. People say that about you. Family and things like that. Do they ever go but you're you're with a man. You're supposed to be supposed. I'm ercoating here, both folks. You're supposed to be with a man.
00:24:44
Speaker
it this sister sure you're just straight. Because a little... I mean, okay, I just find it an interesting point, because I can see how people would go, ah but she's just... chiistia But you identify as a different thing. And what you identify is one thing. But because you fell in love with someone that is perceived as socially normal, that doesn't change what you identify as. No, because I'm looking at the humans. Yeah.
00:25:14
Speaker
um ah see that beast the here here i The dumbest part of that argument is men get married to women all the time and don't stop looking around. So what's the difference?
00:25:26
Speaker
Exactly. your score even i know I don't look, I don't look anywhere. This has been recorded in. Shut the fuck up. ah No, no. But I recently, went recently I have been very, I have been honest with people. Yes. And I, at the start of the year, I told my brother that I am bisexual. Mm hmm.
00:25:56
Speaker
I haven't told any, never told anybody else. even to them You said it on the show once, I think. So I was describing being sexual and you were like, Oh, that sounds like me. Yeah. He told my mom and I spoke to my mom about it and she was like, I don't really give a fuck. Uh, you know, you know, but I know that she's gone, but you're with a woman and that's,
00:26:20
Speaker
who you are quote supposed to be with. yeah So what's that? But it just means- But everything's a construct, right? So marriage is a construct. But at the end of the day, like, yes, I've, in the cultural, like that is something that I did accept it, right? We accept to get married, some of us are polyamorous, but I'm As far as we know, we're monogamous and we're together, but it doesn't mean that doesn't like tickle my fancy. Like if I look at it that's the thing like anybody that is attractive. Yeah, I was going to say, you don't stop being attractive to other people just because you make a commitment to someone. That's i got a ring that kind of so that's kind of a whole deal with being committed. and like that's your goal yeah you do like and i can I can look at a man and go, ah
00:27:03
Speaker
That's a good looking man. That's a very lustrous beard and muscly tattooed guy there on a black t-shirt. I know he's a good looking man, but I'm very much in love with my girlfriend. So that's the only thing that matters. I love my straight white man. I love him. You can see why I wanted to get back to that point because it is something that other people from the outside would look at and go,
00:27:31
Speaker
But it's because they forget their logic because like like I said, just because you're married or in a relationship, just be that doesn't mean that other things don't turn you on or people. Yeah. You're just ah choosing to not follow through on those things. My question is that I fell in love twice. I have fallen in love with women.
00:27:52
Speaker
Yeah. and But I know I have that bit in with me, within me, that is attracted to men. Yeah. um But it just turns out that i the people I've spent most of my time with happen to be women. No, I've actually stopped talking and dreaming about me, sir. No, I'm just kidding. so I kind of picked the best day to be on this show.
00:28:17
Speaker
but it's uh after dark you can it you can it you can it i i don't know it's just it at times i feel confused that maybe maybe i'm not maybe it's just Do you know, it plays with my head a wee bit at times. Does that make sense? Do you ever have those feelings? Yeah, like you're questioning, yeah, it sounds like you're questioning your, your decision or is it like FOMO? Are you, do you feel that by like staying with a girl? No, no, I don't know. Cause once I'm very, I'm very much a monogamous creature. Uh, I couldn't be doing any of the other,
00:29:01
Speaker
uh, flavors of ice cream that are out there or I, I have no time for people that cheat either. Like really it would, um, my family history is between my parents. It's the reason they split up. And so it really had a big impact on me as a child. And I have no time for it. I have no time for it. If you're my friend,
00:29:27
Speaker
I have no time for it if you're anyone around me to the point where I will just go, well, fuck you. That's not on. Be a fucking real person and don't be a cop. We did have a whole chat when it was just me and Stuart though. i kind of i think I think I gave him a little different insight on polyamory.
00:29:44
Speaker
Yeah, i'm not not talking but ah my know what we're talking about I know, but I'm saying like you brought up like you are a monotony, like, you know, you're a monogamous person. But I think like some of our conversation kind of like helped you see a different perspective a little bit. It really did. and it It really did. It was interesting. I just. And I only have a little bit of experience with it.
00:30:03
Speaker
Yeah, you can have a whole like jealousies. jealous You can always have a whole. But no, a whole show on on relationships. and trust yeah Yeah, but I mean, and and even in polyamory jealousy happens, you just got to it's a lot of communicating. It's a lot of a lot of communicating and nothing hidden and a lot of trust.
00:30:25
Speaker
Like there there is jealousy still, but now I'm not trying to convince you of doing that. And working on yourself. At the beginning of our relationship, I was extremely jealous, especially because of the age difference. I was just 20. I had just turned 22 when I met Darren. So I was just just a wee, wee lattice and he was 30. Yeah. So I felt like he was so much older than me. His experience, a full-time job of 12 years. all it So I felt very insecure.
00:30:51
Speaker
And he's like all these girlfriend insecure until I worked on myself then I was like all the yeah Zero and then we talk openly like this is how I feel buts so you should how Everybody should be yeah, yeah is It's your part relationship has been the best you're choosing your partner in crime if you can't rely on them and be open with them What the fuck is the point you might just go hang out with your friends and drink instead? Yeah Yeah, it's just that is one That's one part of the traditional life that I do. Like, I'm happy to celebrate. I don't even know. Well, from my perspective, I don't even know it's traditional that way, because like, I always talk about mom my parents are best friends more than anything. Like, they're just best friends. They want to do shit together all the time. Like, they act like best friends. And that's what's modeled today. That's always what I look for, you know? Wow. Yeah, I'm sort of a steward. They had a really bad divorce and it was really like, to this day, he's like, oh, God.
00:31:47
Speaker
I can't even talk about each other. I know. I don't think my parents were in the same room until ah grandchildren's ah birthday parties. Yeah, for my sister or her. My dad didn't even come for my wedding. Wow. Because there was ah ah was some other air fucking excuse about it. And I apologize if you ever listened to this, but hey, it's a truth. You might not like it, but fuck that.
00:32:12
Speaker
and and and now he has a chance to come to the second one and her
00:32:21
Speaker
Yeah. Let me get over the first one first. Thank you. Um, but, uh, it's, uh, it is, and yeah, it is fucked up on the kids. Do you know what I mean? That kind of thing. So I don't really have any time for it. Um, yeah. Cheating's bullshit, dude. If you can't, if you're, if you're going to do that, just, just step up, like if you're going to be stepping out, just walk away, like say you're done. you excited of it is what's going on There's people, I mean, and I'm not saying it's not just men that do it because women do it too, but there's partners partners that,
00:32:51
Speaker
take it. They go, okay. I know. And I can't understand that either because. Yeah. And that's the tough part because we can't understand it. So that's where going back to what we talked about at the beginning, like me would have had to learn as a therapist, not to pass judgment. Cause there's a reason deep down, whether it's their self-esteem is crushed. They don't have enough resources. Um,
00:33:15
Speaker
You know, like there's no mean there's yeah there's lots of reasons. I know people that have gone through stuff and they stay because they don't have enough money to leave and they don't want but they don't they don't know that they want to stay. But it also not only that, but like a commitment to that extent where you're like married or something means something like they kind of see it as like the old school thing where you don't leave. So like there's a whole pile of things that can cause people at to stay. And you try to show them the light and stuff like Like to me, um you you two have, you two are or have
Marriage, Commitment, and Gender Expression
00:33:48
Speaker
been married. Marriage doesn't really mean anything to me. Like they we didn't want to get married. It's a legal thing here and in the US s that can be helpful. But to me, like it's a piece of paper and a ceremony. here too but
00:34:01
Speaker
But I mean, I want to my point is that a piece of paper in a ceremony, I don't give a fuck. Like it's not going to change the way you feel about somebody. So 100 percent. Yeah. And you give the power to whatever it is because. So yeah. So if it is if I'm ever with somebody that it means a lot to them and I'm ready and I'll do it, but that doesn't mean anything to me because my version of commitment is the same as that. Like it doesn't. That's my level. That's where I go to.
00:34:25
Speaker
i here together for a long enough time. That's where I'm at. I don't need a fucking, I don't need anything. I'd rather just have a party and be like, Hey guys, we're really into this. So like, we're just kind of together, right? everybody drinking We're doing paperwork or any of that other shit. We're good. Yeah. we went universal That was fun. We got married and went to universal. to me I'd rather, I'd rather spend wedding money on like a fucking trip around the world or some shit, you know, or healthcare.
00:34:50
Speaker
a You know what kind of things as as a she they what kind of things do you see um that a lot of a lot of women especially tend to embrace as masculine traits especially with your culture because you like we were talking about like a lot of Hispanic women are very strong and very fun and loud too but Yeah, and that's the thing, right? You'd think that everyone would fit in that, that, that. And then as the generations, we mix with American culture and different cultures of whoever you marry, like these roles are, we can redefine them. But if we were to play like a game and it would say like, this is masculine or feminine, wait, you know what, pause, I'm going to switch it up on y'all.
00:35:43
Speaker
like' asking a question You gotta answer my question first, then you can flip it. What the fuck is this shit? You're not getting out of a question by fucking bullshitting for two seconds. This is the inside of my brain happening. This is fucking weird. This is my story of my life with ADHD. Okay, so you gotta answer the question, then you can flip it anything you want on us.
00:36:07
Speaker
So that wouldn't be the first time a professional game at us. I don't have an answer. You don't have an answer? Well, you see like a. Personally or within my culture, like women. Either way, either way, just even even outside your culture, just women in general, like what do you see the most common traits from masculinity that women tend to embrace? Even if they don't want to call it masculine.
00:36:30
Speaker
See, this is a stubborn side of me that wants to fight against like- That's a masculine trait right there. No, that's true. The stubborn side of me that wants to fight is how you started that phrase. That's a masculine trait right there. That's the thing. Wanting to fight naturally is not a masculine trait and that's where it gets fun. It's the inclusion of stubbornness that made it the masculine trait for me. No, that's the thing. You must have learned at some point throughout your life, from birth to now,
00:37:00
Speaker
that being stubborn equals masculine why no no the combination of the two why the combination of the two why because that is what society has deemed to be a masculine trait see that's not in my world i thought you guys would be a pain in the ass that's fine be a pain in the ass it's just Even though I know there's an obvious answer, right? You guys know who's going to do the oil. It's going to be the man who's going to make the most money. It's going to be the man. That's not what I'm asking. For me, I don't have an answer. There's no answer. The masculine one. Darren and I are equally ah as masculine as we are feminine. Still not answering my question.
00:37:44
Speaker
It's an impossible question. It's not. Ask it again, but potato. Rewind. but but What kind of masculine traits do you see most common in people that identify as women? Oh, women, adult masculine. No. I'm talking about females, women. Why do you say masculine? Because women have masculine traits, too. Yeah, they do. The thing is, that what what's the labels? Oh, that's another thing. Gender is a spectrum.
00:38:13
Speaker
I said women. I said women. I didn't say she that i didn't say any i didn't say they i didn't say anything i said women specifically.
00:38:24
Speaker
So i am I am defining the gender. what ah Let me try and redefine the question. What masculine traits do you aspire to and what masculine traits do you try to avoid?
00:38:41
Speaker
So traits that I like to exhibit to my day to day life are- Same fucking question. yeah There's traits and then like just putting that little filter over it, right? You have a photo.
00:38:56
Speaker
And you're putting this filter over of masculine family. Why label it? like Traits that I like to see in myself is honesty. I work hard. I don't give up. I'm hyper. I like to make a lot of money. I like to make sure my partner is satisfied. I want to make sure there's food in the home. um I want to make sure Luna's washed. I want to make sure that all my husband's stuff is taken care of. of and they just the These are all traits that I wish to have as a human.
00:39:23
Speaker
We use traits and we use descriptors like masculine and feminine to understand things, right? yeah But that's where I'm... No, no, because your argument right now is arguing that I could say any word makes no sense because there's and because it's a spectrum. You know what I'm saying? my every every word Every word was created by somebody to describe something, right?
00:39:51
Speaker
But that's where, you see my tattoo, I have a big Y. Yeah, yeah, I got you. I question that. Why? Thing is those rules. Because we need descriptors so that we can, no, no, we need descriptors and words are defined so that we can have conversations and understand things and communicate, right?
00:40:09
Speaker
Sure, that's fair. So I understand that things are on a spectrum, but there are generally by society accepted traits that are seen as masculine and feminine. Yes, 100%. So there you go. So we just had this whole argument and that is what I'm getting to. And you're sitting there telling me, but I'm telling you that words matter.
00:40:27
Speaker
No, i I a thousand percent agree. And I know I'm not blind to the fact that I grew up in a world that's blue and pink. No, no. I didn't. I don't even care about that. I didn't even care about that because historically blue and pink flipped somewhere along the line. it's you no I know. I know. I don't. I don't care. Within the last 50 years.
00:40:45
Speaker
Yeah, I don't I don't care about that part. Yeah, I'm just asking like where there is a general accepted traits and we don't deny that on this show. We never i know, but I um just because I'm going to be totally honest with you guys. Here's the thing. You can be feminine. You can be feminine and have gen and have masculine traits, though.
00:41:08
Speaker
You can be masculine and have feminine traits. that is I agree. So there you go. Okay. Now you can answer you can answer my question, but you already did sort of, but you did traits. I feel like by answering this question the way I i know that I need to answer it is going to go against everything I stand for. It's on need to my lower not really at all. if you If it's what you, this is funny.
00:41:36
Speaker
Okay, I know how to play this. Tell me, you guys tell me an answer to the question. No, this is about you. We have you on the show because it's about you. Goddamn therapists, always trying to bounce it back. Motherfuckers. I'm not trying to mouth it back. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. She's like, oh, you guys, tell me. And I will listen. That's what you're saying. She tried the whole, this is a spectrum. I'm like, yeah, every word has a definition for a reason. I think I have some extra information. We have a societal agreement on what they mean.
00:42:04
Speaker
I have some extra information and maybe we'll help you like maybe help me yeah Okay, so Sex and gender are two different things. Yes, we talk about things that are more so People that Statistically in the world, people who were born with XY exhibit these traits because of societal norms would be XYZ. That's not a good example. That's the only way I could answer it. Because there's women that are born with XY too. Very rare though. It is, but it happens.
00:42:46
Speaker
But that's the thing, that there's no clear answer. Like even chromosomally, there's people with XXY, XYY. That doesn't change what is societally acceptable as a trait. With lifting weights, is that a masculine trait or a feminine trait? Both. No, just because a woman does it doesn't mean it's not masculine.
00:43:07
Speaker
but why well why why is it the evolution of lifting I'm just saying if a woman is a weight lifter what would the average man say she is she looks she looks she looks manly yeah i understand that's what people would say but that's not right no just because it's not right that's not what we're asking yeah that's how i see the world no i understand but you're you're telling me but you're telling yourself
00:43:47
Speaker
up there for no I know you're tying yourself up in knots trying to avoid things that are like that are just fucking say stubbornness. Okay, I'm just gonna say it. um ah even tempered. But listen, I'm saying though, but seriously, like you can be, you can have masculine traits and still identify as a woman. Absolutely. I don't know what you're running from. there's So you agree with that, but then you avoid the questions.
00:44:16
Speaker
i need to describe i have just i never describe someone right write for an instruction So what do you define as masculine? I'm going to describe i'm gonna just i'm gonna describe someone right now.
00:44:28
Speaker
Okay. And you're strong breadwinner, caring, angry at times. I wouldn't know. It would be a 50 50 guess. And that's, that's, that's the point. That's the point. That's where I'm coming from. That's the point. that's instantally that that's that's my mom Do know what I mean?
00:44:55
Speaker
But that could have easily been a a masculine man. like exactly Exactly. So the point is, a woman too women can women can have those masculine traits. The question is, which you what what you goes my live which of those masculine do you think are useful?
00:45:23
Speaker
All of them. All of them for different reasons. Oh, so. Oh, so. So wait, wait, this is interesting. I don't think so. This is two against one. Not at all. Not at all. Not at all. Because wait wait you think all masculine traits are good. But I need you to give me your dictionary what masculine means. It's it's it's based on your. Are you saying it's common sense? No, it's based on your perspective. your perspective And I'm telling you my perspective, my honest perspective. wait Wait, you just said there's no such thing as a bad masculine trait. But I take that back. I will answer that question. You need to define to me what does masculine mean to you? Because I feel like we're you're talking Chinese and I'm talking English. We got your point. We got your point. But you're also dodging the fact that as a whole, as a descriptor, there are things that you would call a masculine trait to describe it to somebody.
00:46:22
Speaker
Just because a woman doesn't mean just because society doesn't, I mean, just because a woman doesn't doesn't mean that she's masculine. It just means she does that one thing that is considered masculine. That some people may consider masculine. Can you do like this considered masculine? Ma'am, you call it a gendered language. you That's why I kind of lean towards they because she's like,
00:46:48
Speaker
It's like when a girl gets married and want to keep their maiden name like I really have been more cool like you guys are saying feminine throughout my life but now I devour more they because I am you changed your name when you got my didn't you for cultural reasons.
00:47:04
Speaker
Oh, yeah. Yeah, that's cool. It bothered me to this. I was going through some shit and I was outside of my family. I've got some trauma. So I didn't want to identify with the name anymore. That makes sense. That makes sense. Yeah. Actually, we went there tonight. We went to a sex shop like two years ago and I was paying and in my credit card, I started my maiden name on it.
00:47:28
Speaker
Random and I told her oh it my because I she's like, can I see your credit card? I'm like, what year is this? Can you see my credit card from my freaking thing? Okay So she's she looks for the car. She's like, oh, I'm like, oh, that's my mayor name Well, she got her soapbox just like I am right now. Like you get the get hyped She got her soapbox. She's like, you know, you didn't have to take his name. And that's such a man thing to do that I take your name. And what about your identity? And I was like, in that moment, I felt like, like, trust me, we're on the same team. Like, if you understood my why, you would be like, I got you girl. Yeah. Did you not find it weird that she had to go with you? Because
00:48:12
Speaker
You chose for cultural reasons or whatever. It doesn't really matter what fucking reason you chose to take his name. Yeah, that was triggering for her. But she's having a go at you, but she's having a go at you saying you don't need to take his fucking name. but She's probably she's out be fine with telling you what to do. That's such a fucking weird I know. Okay. I'm going to, I'm going to bring up an old, I'm going to bring up an old, an old thing I've heard before. Okay.
Cultural Influences on Gender Roles
00:48:39
Speaker
You guys both understand what a chair is, right? ah You mean a seat that I'm sitting on? A chair. Nina, you know what a chair is, right? Yes. Define it. Don't be a jerk. Define it. Oh, actually this is perfect. This will help exhibit mental exercise. yeah A piece of furniture. Wait for Nina. Oh.
00:49:04
Speaker
uh chair something that you could something that you can sit on and hold you up it has four legs uh apart for your butt or three legs is a camel a chair you like is a horse a chair you can't use it's got four legs do all chairs have four legs it depends are you using it for traveling or sitting You sit on it either way. yeah but Also, but no no just I'm not trying to make anybody feel foolish. There's really no answer to this because everyone just understands what a chair is. You know what I mean? No, I know. That's the point. I'm honestly a very little overwhelmed. Oh, no, no, no, it's OK. Oh, Nina. No, no, no, Nina. It's OK. No, no, no, it's not OK. No, I'm glad. I want people to hear this. This is not your guy's fault. This is my own trauma of not feeling heard. And I get like... Oh, yeah, yeah no, no. We're going to let you talk.
00:49:53
Speaker
Yeah, I think This is my every day this is how I see the world I feel like um, i'm very um um like I just i'm a logic person. That's why i'm a Atheist that's why i'm existentialist i'm a very logical person makes total sense so as soon as I thought of this thought of mass masculine. i'm I love sociology and then in culture and the evolution of culture. So things were defined as masculine and feminine over time. And I totally agree. But what I am coming from, I'm like, I have a hammer and I'm trying to hammer that down because putting those terms on those different traits or It is more harming and I think ah that's what like can can I explain something to you because I was just gonna say this but you just had this you had this little you had your little your break and I wanted to hear you out but I was gonna tell you that the only reason we were pushing on it is but to show people the different ways of people see perspectives on things. No, i I love that you did. I never judge. I would never judge you. be No, no, no. Well, that is why I brought up the chairs because I was gonna go down the avenue that everyone just understands what a chair is and
00:51:06
Speaker
but it's almost impossible to define. So that and you kind of just jumped the gun of where I was going. The other side of this is there's what i'm saying yeah okay the walls that you're trying to break down. Okay. yeah Are very recently constructed. Very recently constructed. Of what masculinity and femininity are. We're talking about the last 100 years. Yeah. If you go pre to that very different set of rules, if you look at Greek and Roman culture and things like that. Yeah, we're trying to survive. Yeah. Well, not even that far back. Even King's high heels and stuff were made for men.
00:51:52
Speaker
That's because they were short kings. Yeah, and stockings too, like put your best foot forward comes from showing off your calf muscle. That's why it's like high heels are masculine or feminine, but neither. Did you guys see my thing I shared on this ground the other day? It was a teacher and he had like a permethium board, like a projector. And he was showing different things asking his students, okay, boxing gloves for boys or girls. And I was like, why? He's like,
00:52:23
Speaker
And then he's like going through all the different things but not only I am like Behaviors and this time the other and then he's like in the end is like is both is because we've constructed that so because of that I'm just like I hear you guys and I appreciate you guys took the time to like hear me too, but it's And explain that to me, because it's true, like understanding that this is hot off the press, hot off the press. So our our whole point here is that masculine is ah this the definition is dependent on the person for the most part. So pushing that by pushing you. at a different
00:52:57
Speaker
Yeah, and in my opinion, by pushing you, you have you just straight up flat out or like, nope, I don't care. Yeah, like that's so by pushing you, and we weren't trying to make you upset or anything, but we actually brought on the perspective that nobody else has had on the show yet. So that's why I kept pushing because I wanted you to keep saying it. And then I was like,
00:53:18
Speaker
Then I was like, you know, I'll do the chair thing that I've heard you're trying to explain it. Yeah. you're Oh, no, no, no. I'm trying to. I'm trying. I want people to hear other perspectives. That's why we do the show. You are the first one to come this way where you just flat out refused. So by pressing enough. Yeah. So by pressing you, we made sure that that was really what you believed. You know what I mean? yeah You should see me listening to the other shows too. Like and that's the thing. Like I that's something for me to to journal on or go go restart therapy on. Something I honestly want to chomp on is where where' is this coming from that I become so um um like closed off and very defensive when it comes up when you like gender and all that comes up. See if I'm getting emotional. So yeah, there's something on top there that I discovered today because I didn't know it was that
00:54:13
Speaker
fierce could that be because one, you've had questions about your own place on the gender spectrum. Yeah, for sure.
00:54:30
Speaker
I think too, like if you if you've always had some kind of secondary thought about like where you actually belong and in your culture, pressing you so hard to be like this feminine version of your culture. because it is aul oh maybe I'm glad you brought up culture because in the Cuban culture, right like in and certain Latin countries, well most of them, the man is like more powerful, more this, that, and the other. like And I think that as a young, rebellious teenager in America, I was like,
00:54:59
Speaker
says who yeah says who like says who so i think maybe that's where that's coming from where i'm like says who all that's masculine why because it that's a better to have no that's true like as just I want to fight it. And because I know I could be done for that man. Like I could do this better than I could like, no, strength isn't equal man. Yeah. I know traditionally, but it's because women had to raise children and how to do these things and survive and cook and then the hunting gather. So I just, that's ferocious of me, but I feel stubborn. The other thing I was going to say was.
00:55:36
Speaker
I am going through the process of figuring out whether or not I have ADHD. My therapist is pretty fucking confident. and Most people around me are pretty fucking confident. and And part of that is, I mean, I didn't realize until after Claire left, how good she was at dealing with that. She knew whenever my social battery had depleted to the point where I needed to fuck off and be on my own for a while. Or like if I was in the middle of a discussion, shall we say, because I'm very black and white ones and zeros, very logical bit like yourself. And I get to the point where my brain just goes,
00:56:26
Speaker
and No, thank you. Oh, all the time. Yeah. And do you think that maybe some of that is there? That's kind of what I was saying to you. I kind of understand how you get to that point. Do you know what I mean? Yeah. Because it is a thing where your brain just goes like, you're firing on so many cylinders that they start to misfire. And you're like, what? I'm about to do the most hypocritical thing ever. I'm about to say.
00:56:52
Speaker
So a a she there I'm gonna walk away i' gonna get up back you in fuck you I think it's having two men I've never been in it like maybe in the Air Force I was in the military but it's been a while that I've been in the room with just two other people and there's other things that are intimidating but maybe um
00:57:19
Speaker
Maybe it has to do with the mess. No, I don't think so. Never mind. It's just too like it's the two against one. We weren't two against one. We were all arguing different things. it true And the masculine thing. um Yeah, but you got your point across. and you were You held firm and I'm fucking proud of you for it. Yeah, it was awesome. It was great. Am I a mom?
00:57:38
Speaker
Am I a man? I'm a man. ah You can spread across his chest. If I quickly saw you, I would say, yes, you're probably a man. But the thing is you can't, you can't assume. You can't. You don't know. You don't know. You could you don't know. i Oh my God, I'm so pissed. I was actually planning to come with a mustache on today.
00:58:04
Speaker
fucking love you i fucking love ah damn notice this look good yeah i really want ah would come with a mustache I Cut my hair off when I was in middle school like off and they fucked it up. So I had a buzz cut school They would split up the kids at lunch like boys and girls and if I wasn't in a skirt I They were like, go that side. I'm like, I'm a girl that go that side. I mean, my mom's the fucking teacher at the school. Like, you know me. Why did you But I went to like a super cuts and I wanted this like cute little fringy Mandy Moore moment and they the lady. So you're short, too short.
00:58:53
Speaker
And also I don't have white people here, which that's another thing. I just realized, oh my God, I actually don't have straight white people here. is When you're like in the between as a white person, I don't have white street. I don't have street hair. I don't have my. But a Latina as a Latina, all my Latina friends had curly hair. So white to us was like, oh, straighter hair, like easy, easier to manage. So now that I realize, oh, yeah. So when I went with this kind of hair, she did it and it became a puff and I had it. Was it like a bob or something? No, I short short hair. than that No, I mean, I'm saying is that what you were going for? It was like a bob kind of look.
00:59:30
Speaker
yeah like an electric
00:59:46
Speaker
That just makes you knowledgeable they may get inside the overexciting and say fucking grand oh mi i loved it Oh My god, that was good Where was I going with that? Oh, yeah. So, yeah, I had a little like I had it. I went home and I just shaved it. It was at my dad's house. My parents were divorced. I was up in Georgia and I came home and I was like, what the fuck? But that was a struggle. Yeah. yeah And I don't know. And also if we talked about um attraction and sexuality, that's a whole other podcast because that's another topic I'm obsessed with. I kind of brought that up a little asking you about Darren. Yeah, you did. Yeah. What do you want to talk about?
01:00:27
Speaker
We got a few more. Bring up something. Ask something. Do something. Be a therapist. Ask a question. I'm going to say something controversial, but this is only in Nina's universe.
01:00:41
Speaker
On my universe, what you're attracted to. So, okay. I'm not good with my words. I can write the fuck out of anything, but if I had to say it, I struggled very much. I have to like picture them.
01:00:56
Speaker
So um I lost it because I've been drinking and smoking. Next. What were we going to ask? Well, I was going to say, you want to talk about like sex, gender, relationships. Ask us something. We've been barraging you with stuff. Ask a question.
01:01:10
Speaker
o So if you had. A Venn diagram. Okay. Y'all have a Venn diagram. Yeah. And one side for the sake of the freaking assignment, I'll put masculine. And then for the sake of the assignment, I'll put feminine on the other side. And you have a Venn diagram, right? The middle class is over. Start. It could be objects. It could be a noun. It could be a verb. It could be a adjective, whatever you want to use. Start like putting them where they belong. This is ridiculous homework.
01:01:47
Speaker
are masculine depends oh my god that's so i know i'm aware but that's not my fault that's it's not my fault either but then why do you know you don't have to keep that but here's the thing i would say car masculine but if i name a car feminine that's why i said it depends feminine That's fucking weird. So it's it towards the middle of the fan diagram. Thank you. on spanish In Spanish, um most words that, like for objects you that can be penetrated or you enter are feminine. So like, and certain objects that are masculine are masculine. Like desk s antorio is with O because it's more masculine. What's Spanish for butthole?
01:02:37
Speaker
I don't know. muho I can only translate it in a girl that doesn't speak Spanish as well as she should and her ancestors would be disappointed. waco the kula What's that mean? Whole of ass. all of us That's not that's definite we know what they call it. So is that feminine or masculine? That's my masculine. I can be in the middle. No, no. By your language he's asking.
01:03:01
Speaker
but Oh, I don't think so. Because you said, you said anything that has been entered. Asshole in Spanish. It ends in L so it's masculine. In Cuban. I believe if it ends in O, it's masculine. If it ends in A, it's feminine. That's kind of how Italian works sort of. Oh, bendeja. Oh, they're going to have bendejo or bendeja. Mm, excuse me. All right. So we all could be assholes. Nice. Good to know. I should have known that one.
01:03:30
Speaker
like Give us some more objects or things or nouns and we will place them on the Venn diagram. Cell phone. right That's in the middle. Changing a baby's diaper.
01:03:44
Speaker
feminate that Feminine. That's feminine. It naturally, I know it's not. I have done it. I've done a lot of it. Just because we're saying something is feminine or masculine does not mean that it's between man or woman. Yes, it is. This is going to be the episode that actually cancels us. Should you realize that? Yeah, for sure. Thank you. That's what we care for. No, I'm so proud of you guys. Keep going, keep going. This is the best thing for two people who identify as men to make a podcast like this is fantastic.
01:04:13
Speaker
that's what makes it even better. Because on the outside, no, you see like people who traditionally look men manly and identify as men and you guys even share that you identify as men and it's just but also we are aware that that they are just traits as descriptors as a way to communicate and not so much that it defines a person as that thing. You know what I mean? Like just because I have a beard and that is a masculine thing to have does not mean that I would necessarily automatically be a man. You know what I'm saying? So even though we do...
01:04:57
Speaker
I identify as a female, I'd be as ah she, her, I would say, cool. And you didn't even change a thing. It's not going to happen. I'm already an honorary lesbian, and so we're good. That's true. But honestly, like just because we do that and we it's more for in my in my view, it's more of a way to communicate a thing to somebody. It's not so much that I believe that it is a gender specific thing.
01:05:24
Speaker
Do you understand what I'm saying? i i I have a couple I'm going to throw out to you that I have this argument with my children with. So real quick, I just want to say Nina, I do understand and I actually do agree with ah your sentiment and how you say things. I just want you to also understand.
01:05:39
Speaker
the way that we use the words yeah and the reason we say those traits. It's more of a communication thing than yeah reality, if that's a better way to put it. What do you think, Stuart? Is that a good way to put it? Definitely. I'm just want like so viciously against cultural norms that it's gone.
01:05:57
Speaker
it the The pendulum has swung. Yeah, I got you. Where I'm like, no. Right. Right. Right. Might turn to the Vayne diagram. Okay. So I have this argument with my children all the time. Here are two girls. And so. keep it Oh my God. doll Dolls. In the middle. I need specifics. but In the middle. Oh, that's. In the middle. In the middle.
01:06:25
Speaker
He specifically said Barbie. Baby dolls in the middle, in the middle. That would be a feminine thing, I would think. I would put baby dolls in the middle. I think it would depend on it. Barbie dolls would be feminine. Baby dolls I would put in the middle because if your child wants to play with a doll, what are you going to teach them to be? I'm fine with them playing with either. A good father? Fuck off. Do you know what I mean? That's it. It's not going to make anyone gay. No. That said, I would let them play with the Barbies too if they wanted. Yeah, no, absolutely. I don't think there's anything that you can say that I won't say one or the other. OK.
01:07:02
Speaker
Because there's been people who like inside oh Oh, that's in the middle. What was that? That's in the middle for me. In the middle. That's the middle for me. The middle. Lipstick in the middle. No, it's not about that one. That's feminine.
01:07:19
Speaker
It's very feminine. The baby I had to think about, but it doesn't mean that if I had a kid, I'd be like, here, you want to play with the baby? I don't care. But the thing for me about... like but I buy stuff for my kids, right? Oh, yes, you have kids. I love buying them nondescript Lego because it makes them just build random madness, okay? Yeah. yeah ah But if you look at the sets of Lego for girls,
01:07:44
Speaker
They're all Lego friends. But all for girls. right Yeah, but it's the ones that are specifically marketed towards ah female presenting humans. All right.
01:07:59
Speaker
that are LEGO Friends, which are houses, shops, florists, pet shops, groomers, you know, that type of shit. yeah yeah And then you look at the ones that are for male presenting humans. They are ah LEGO's Technics, which are cars, robots, spaceships,
01:08:27
Speaker
all of this shit. And that's the kind of thing that drives me mental because girls can be engineers too. Do you know, do you know what I mean? Well, to be honest, if I had kids, I wouldn't be like, you can have a Barbie cause you're a girl. I don't, I don't think I would even do, but here's the, now here's the thing that's going, here's the kicker, right?
01:08:52
Speaker
I'm you obviously, from the way I'm talking, you can understand how I feel about that particular situation. And I feel it's the same way. Cora, obsessed with everything that's pink, obsessed with princesses, obsessed with Barbie dolls, babies, things like that. Zoe, I'm like i was just playing with dolls. I goes, can I play with you? He goes, these are for girls. And I'm like, what are you talking about?
01:09:21
Speaker
She goes, these are for girls. They're dolls. They're doll ah for girls. I goes, but see that fucking Batman up there? That's my doll. And she goes, exactly. Oh, OK. But we clearly didn't put that on those children. So why do they still have that social norm? Great question. I could not have thought of a better, like,
01:09:49
Speaker
Time to bring this up. I've dropped it down because ADHD life i'm fully was I know involved in what you're saying But if I didn't write it down, it would have been lost forever plus the substances. Um That's another area of psychology is a class that I love so very much is developmental psychology and how um, if you look at different cultures and you see people Humans don't come out naturally wanting to dress as one or the other, play with one or the other. It is so slowly, hour by hour, it is in our media, it's on TV, it's within our culture. So if you go to a culture where women stretch their necks by putting the actual thing or men do certain things. Yeah, it's a cultural thing, so they grow up
01:10:35
Speaker
And then they just, I mean, if you some cultures, if if you don't do it, you there's that. Like boxing your feet, like shrinking your feet, the old Japan customs. This is beautiful. Everything is um is cultural. This is like relative. For sure. So, developmentally,
01:10:56
Speaker
going to Stewart's questions, like, where did she pick it up? She picked it up in school. She picked it up on TV, movies, on shows, um any little, anything she's ever been exposed to. If she was kept in, let's say, a box, please know. I'm going to make it into a party. But here's the thing with, when it comes to Zoe, Zoe's first two and a half years, she was in a box, essentially.
01:11:22
Speaker
That's true of Covid. Because we she was born during Covid and she was in the house, she didn't meet really anybody else. Yeah. So please I find that she still has that thing and we're very much, no, no, no, you can do what you want. You want to go up and be a scientist, be a scientist. If you want to go up and look after children, grow up and look after children, doesn't fucking matter.
01:11:54
Speaker
Uh, humans are just the way we develop is so like intricate, right? So it's the the littlest things it's finding I I got a tattoo. It says why because this is just like the question Why are we the way we are and there's so many variables like there's so much research talking about uh The order of birth and how far you are from your other siblings and where you are in your life so when your first child was born and was developing and maybe to the age of like ah before they were aware of they're aware of their awareness and say three or four, they got a different you and your, and her mom versus your next child.
Parenting Styles and Personal Development
01:12:34
Speaker
She was exposed to a different you guys. And the different world too. I have said that on here before very much. So whenever Cora was born, we treated her like a porcelain doll. Yeah.
01:12:47
Speaker
because we were scared she was going to break yeah because of everything that went on with her. And and it's the same same goes for all parents. Their first child, they're like, holy fuck. They're so breakable. But once by the time you've had the second one, do you know they'll bounce a couple of times? They're fine. um So you're not as careful with the second one. And the second one is generally an absolute fucking head kiss because you're less anxious around them. and fucking yeah zoe cheese yes But you're less anxious around them. You're less stressed out that they're going to break. So they feel more freedom because their parents are less hovering over the top of them.
01:13:32
Speaker
See, that's insight I would never have. I've never had kids, so that's really interesting. I never thought of that. Yeah. but it's I mean, I have lots of friends who have multiple children and we all have said the same thing. It's like the first one is generally but pretty much to straight down the line, you know, worried about stuff and things like that. oh The second one is generally a fucking mental case. Menace. Menace. True story. She's awesome. We're both awesome.
01:14:00
Speaker
I wrote down something else that goes along with what we're talking about is nature versus nurture. So within the scientific community, it's debated as to what percentage is nature and that what percentage is nurture. And I am a diehard. I had to write a paper about it and you know I'm stubborn as hell. I am a diehard nurture. ah definitely there too But I'm a nature worker because I'm just like a socialist.
01:14:30
Speaker
But truly, nature is sociologists. That that can be and found in their genetics. And it's crazy because there's a lot. But a lot of who they are is their touchstones through their life, you know? have you Nina, have you ever seen the movie Gattaca?
01:14:53
Speaker
Why does that sound familiar? If you haven't seen the movie Gattaca, you should see that. It's more, it more relates to physical. It's more and more relates to physical thing, but basically it's genetically engineered humans versus not like normal, natural born. You know what that made me think of? Because I just looked it up. You should watch them. I think I would really like that. Yeah. In 97, even better. I love 90s movies. And it has, what's, is that,
01:15:23
Speaker
It's Ethan Hawke. Why do I always confuse Ethan Hawke with Kevin Bacon when they're young? It's Ethan Hawke and what is it, Jude Law? I haven't watched it in a while. You confuse Kevin Bacon and Ethan Hawke. Not Ethan Hawke. What? What is happening? All right, I gotta go now. I'm just getting too out of here now. I'm getting too crazy now. No! I can't remember if it was Jude Law, but I think it was for some reason. I glowed Ethan Hawke. Oh, you see, I'm delirious.
01:15:52
Speaker
Damn, I learned a lot. i My expectation, I guess, i had my assumption, before coming in, I thought, everyone thought this way. No, um that's kind of why we do the talks because I've noticed um some of the younger younger generations basically don't see like much
Masculinity and Mental Health
01:16:10
Speaker
like you. They don't see you know seem much of a reason to have gender. and there there's some some there is there's ah There's another generation that's between us that kind of seems to be struggling with masculinity and what it means to them and how to be that way. And it's led to certain podcasts and other things becoming more and more popular for no reason. And it's led to a lot of other issues that I see, like a lot of facades and a lot of like peacocking is the word I've been using lately, like flaring out and acting tough. And you think that's how it is and like being the boss of your house and your woman and all that shit. like Yeah. Yeah. Because you have, yeah, because you were born with
01:16:51
Speaker
those genitalia, you're a man, and this is how you should behave, yeah. And anyone that- They've clung on, somehow they've clung on to these traditional values have circled back around, and some people are like that now, like recently that fucking idiot that's a white, self-proclaimed white nationalist was talking about, like your body, my choice, that kind of shit. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like that kind of mental thing, in my opinion, that does not make you a fucking man, that makes you a fucking little bitch.
01:17:20
Speaker
um like the Texas protesting going on. There was stuff with like things that are property, women, slaves, cars, like on these protest signs and the students ran those fuckers out. um That kind of shit does not make you a man, in my opinion, that makes you a fucking idiot and you're a piece of shit. You're just trying to use somebody that you can't get on your own. So you're trying to force them to be part of your life. um Yeah.
01:17:41
Speaker
But there's people that are seriously lost. From a mental health point of view, there's a lot of insecurity. There's a lot of insecurity. We're definitely not saying it's bad to be masculine or have masculine traits. Oh, of course. Yeah, whatever. You'll find it. Yeah. That would make me a hypocrite and see the way I look. Yeah. What we're saying is that what do you think being a man is
01:18:04
Speaker
isn't probably right. No. And the other thing that goes along with people listening and getting their stuff from podcasts, there's this dude I follow, Bo, the fifth column, he said a line once talking about masculinity. He said something along the lines of, if if somebody has to tell you what matter if you're masculine, you're not.
01:18:22
Speaker
Yeah. And I kind of really liked that line. It kind of stuck with me. That's pretty good. um So, yeah. It's a good place. I think this has been an awesome conversation. It's been a really good conversation. And I have very much enjoyed that you allowed us to press you so you could push back and really like hammer down your beliefs because it's very different than anyone else that's been out here. And I very much enjoyed that. That's why I kept laughing and saying, this is fun.
Embracing Identity Beyond Norms
01:18:48
Speaker
And if your birth gender and what you were assigned um does not fit with how you feel like if your self-esteem is down because you don't feel enough You don't have to comply with the definitions that you were taught of that gender. So if right now you're struggling with that You're enough like you're you're girl enough. You're boy enough. You're in the middle enough. You're human enough like You don't have to fit in these boxes. You just have to be happy just find you're fucking happy So Nina, we only really have two questions. The first one. Oh, sure. Did you answer the first one? Anyway, so. hey And then the second question. The second question is, what's the manliest thing you've done this week? I hate you guys. You know that it's part of the show. What is the fuck, y'all? I need another hour. Part two. See ya. That'll happen. ah man ah Right now. But yeah, that'll happen.
01:19:47
Speaker
Yep. It's kind of a fun, lighthearted question, but it makes people think. Yeah. It's not a lot harder for me. It's triggering as hell. What's the manliest? ah I don't know what that means. We do ask everyone that question. I know. We're not going to say anything else. We're just going to ask you, what's the mass manliest thing you've done this week? The manliest thing I did this week was dye my hair. Okay.
01:20:16
Speaker
That's perfect. I love it. It was really fantastic, Nina. Thank you very much for coming on. I hope that sometime down the line, you'll come back on and talk to us again.
01:20:31
Speaker
ab And push more boundaries some more boundaries. I like i love it. push boundaries It was good. This is the environment to do it with people you trust and love. Yep. Awesome. And I am very happy that you did that because nobody else has really pushed that way before. yeah So I'm very happy. It's been great. I really appreciate it.
01:20:51
Speaker
there's a construct
01:20:54
Speaker
All right, everybody, this has been fun. I love you guys both. Bye, everybody. Bye. Have a good week. You say bye. Bye.
01:21:06
Speaker
with