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VOY: "Relativity" (s5e24)
92 Plays6 days ago
PING PONGIN' SEVEN. It's a time travel romp as Seven of Nine gets roped into a game of chicken with a vengeful Captain Braxton previously seen (and played by a different actor) in the "Future's End" two-parter. Will Bryan & Kristen TREK, MARRY, or KILL it?
The grades begin at (20:30).
Recommended
Transcript
Trailer and Podcast Introduction
00:00:00
Speaker
Next on Trek Mary Kill Braxton, Psychosis, Ping Pong Energize Expect more in May on UPN. 7 of 9 is the hottest thing in the 24th century. And Wednesday on an all-new Voyager. Take cover! You've seen up one, but two of her. We must apprehend him. He's trying to destroy Voyager. It's 7 of 9, like you've never seen her before. Stop him. Your future depends on it. And twice the 7. Meets twice the action. She's dead. Voyager.
00:00:38
Speaker
Trek, Mary Kill.
00:00:44
Speaker
Hi, I'm Brian. Hi, I'm Kristen. Welcome to Trek, Mary Kill, a podcast that judges episodes of Star Trek from every time period in Star Trek history. This week we're discussing Relativity. It's the 24th episode of Star Trek Voyager's fifth season, also known as the anti-penultimate episode.
Voyager's 'Relativity' Episode Overview
00:01:02
Speaker
ah It premiered on UPN May 12th, 1999.
00:01:06
Speaker
25 years old. It's crazy anyway. Yeah, sorry. Just can't believe it anyway. Teleplay by Brian Fuller and Nick Sagan and Michael Taylor from a story by Nick Sagan. And it was directed by Alan Eastman. Memory Alpha describes it. Seven of nine is recruited by a starship from the 29th century to save Voyager from being destroyed in the past. But Memory Alpha isn't telling us so The starship is called Relativity, name of the episode, and it's the destruction of Voyager in the past caused by a vengeful and psychotic Captain Braxton from Future's End. The very same. He's back, recast, and he's picked up. Yeah, I was gonna say, that doesn't look like the same guy.
00:01:52
Speaker
He's mad at Janeway for being stranded on Earth for 30 years, even though at the end of Part 2, he claims to have no recollection of the timeline that they fixed or
Brian's First Viewing Experience
00:02:03
Speaker
changed. So was he lying? Or were the writers like, let's just pretend people didn't hear that? Who knows? I don't know. I mean, I know they say they like can merge the versions.
00:02:19
Speaker
Yes, just like or in gray tomorrow just like in tomorrow is yesterday, where Spock just does that mumbo jumbo of like, oh, well, if we beam Captain Christopher at the right time, he'll merge with this past self and it will be like it never happened. So kind of a nice coincidence.
00:02:35
Speaker
that all of these episodes we've just been watching are kind of coming to a head here. I say all that because I like to ask, was the first time when was the first time you saw this episode? I'm going to guess this is the first time you've seen the episode. That is correct. You would be correct. I'm going to tell you, I've got a big confession to make. I did not see this episode until like maybe 18 months ago. I had somehow never seen this episode.
00:03:02
Speaker
Wow, I'm actually surprised by that. I am, too. But looking at the timeline, 1999, May of 1999, you know what I was doing? I was getting ready to graduate high school. And I guarantee you that Star Trek was not on my radar. Yeah. You're like, I'm about to be 18. Or you aren't you probably were 18. I was 18, yeah. Things are going great. Everything's coming up, Brian. That's right. So senioritis. Going to go to senior prom. That's right. Senioritis. Make some poor decisions.
00:03:32
Speaker
Cinderitis included, uh, not caring about Star Trek, my studies. That was a study that got neglected.
Temporary Shift from Discovery Reviews
00:03:39
Speaker
Um, but if you're a regular listener, then you know that we're disrupting our Star Trek discovery season five reviews. Cherise the sci-fi Savage. She's joined me. We're going to cover all 10 episodes from the final season, but we're interrupting it because.
00:03:56
Speaker
In a couple of weeks, we're going to be doing our episode on Face the Strange, which is the fourth episode of Discovery's fifth season. And it kind of was inspired by this episode and in the one you and I, Kristen, will be discussing next week. So I just thought it'd be fun because, again, there's 950 episodes of Star Trek.
00:04:17
Speaker
to kind of look at, layer in the the inspiration or the seem sound alike kind of episodes um when we have an opportunity. And, you know, just you're not going to watch Discovery for the show because like and you're not going to jump in on season five. No, I want to torture you with that. Yeah, I know. I appreciate that. Thank you.
00:04:38
Speaker
But boy, Jared, we're all pretty comfortable with. So um expect that. So Charisse will be back in a couple of weeks is my bigger point. And this week and next, we're going to do two episodes that set up that Face the Strange episode. Anyway, one thing in this episode reminds me of.
00:04:54
Speaker
It's something that not a lot of shows do, but it's happened throughout the course of TV, mostly in genre. And it's kind of a fun trope. We usually see it towards the ends of shows. um You know, Next Generation kind of very famously did that, their series finale, but basically an opportunity to revisit the past. And so I kind of like when TV recontextualizes things with time
Time-Jumping in TV Shows
00:05:17
Speaker
jumping. Maybe was it Back to the Future Part Two? Maybe that was kind of like the big, the seismic shock that made this more of a standard trope of shows or movies doing this where it could be like, you can run into your old self. Yeah. or Or just like Back to the Future Part Two of like, what if we spent the second act in Back to the Future Part One? You know what I mean? Just yeah go back and redo it and see it from a different angle. Sometimes that can be fun. This isn't quite that. It's like before Voyager launches. You know, we've got some so it's not like tied to anything specific. It's just like revisiting eras of the of the show. um So I just thought that was fun, although maybe you didn't catch this. When we start the episode, Voyager is in space stock, basically having been completed.
00:06:10
Speaker
My impression of Caretaker, it was not that Voyager had just launched. My impression was that they had been together for a period of time, and this one makes it text that nope,
00:06:24
Speaker
like Voyager is being launched to go specifically on the mission that they're on in Caretaker. So between that and Braxton in season two saying, I don't remember that happening, and him saying, here, there's a lot of continuity mishmashing, which didn't need to happen. I don't think they needed to tell the story that way. But it's just a good thing to know, you know, Star Trek's been doing this forever. And here's a quite an egregious one, I think. And did I misread the, did that not register for you, Kristen?
Voyager's Mission and Continuity Issues
00:06:54
Speaker
um It sounded like to me that yes, they were going to go on that mission, but like a couple of the crew were known to Janeway, but not they hadn't really been together before that. So I remember and when I first saw this, because it was not that long ago.
00:07:14
Speaker
Yeah. Going like, cool. we Way, way back. We get to see that hot Betazoid Ensign Stadi or Lieutenant Stadi. Here we go. Oh, no. Get that. She's moved on. That's right.
00:07:27
Speaker
That's one thing you're looking for forward to. Once I knew where they were in the time frame. Like, oh, boy. That's Lieutenant Stadi. Yes. Revisited and nope. They probably did not. By the way, they probably did not even it didn't not even occur to them.
00:07:44
Speaker
to No, they had no idea how much of an impression Lieutenant Stadi left on. teenage boys watching. Like one specific teenage boy, perhaps. Even though Tom Paris is hitting on her very hard in the episode. No, they don't. They didn't remember that. So and by the time season six, this is Brandon Braga. ah He's the showrunner. And dude is is if he's not burnt out, he's pissed off.
00:08:15
Speaker
if you go through and read all the background stuff of memory alpha which i've done before especially during lockdown you just i just would go through each episode and just scroll down to the bottom and read the notes and they're taking a lot of excerpts from like the voyager companion and all these interviews and all that stuff and if you just track it it's like brandon braga you know was not the showrunner of Voyager when it started. He would then eventually graduate into that role. And he started to become insular and pull away because he didn't like what the writing staff was doing. So he was just like, let me write it. Let me rewrite it. Let me do this. You could like slowly see this person just becoming more and more detached and I guess approaching burnout, which is what we get when we get to enterprise.
00:08:58
Speaker
Um, and so I just thought that was kind of like a funny way. Is this the same person you said was an A-lister? I said an A-list screenwriter because- Well, you didn't say the screenwriter part at first. you know But within well the you three minutes span, I clarified.
00:09:17
Speaker
Yes, but then he also then started dating Jerry Ryan and was in a relationship with her for multiple years. So at least an A-list from a male perspective. I wanted it at both ends, as they say. That's right. So speaking of Jerry Ryan, this episode is basically the end of her second season on the show. She's been working on it for two years.
00:09:39
Speaker
And what sticks with me is sort of the way, the if not a pivot, but like a very strong seven of nine saying like Janeway is great. Janeway is great. Janeway is And I wonder if this is the culmination of two years of frustrations of like UPN saying like, can we shove the old lady aside and put the hot blonde in her place?
00:10:03
Speaker
And they're kind of like the first that half of the episode is seven of nine focused. And then the second, the last two acts are like Janeway's in the story now, even though it actually starts on Janeway. But my point is like, she's not quite the hero of the episode until the end. And then she kind of is. And then, but then it shows that they, how much they've grown closer together. I wonder if this is like an edict from the top, you know, Brandon Braga, you know, with, it he's got it the girlfriend, they have consolidated power.
00:10:31
Speaker
cable grew knows that she can't really torture Jerry Ryan anymore. So everyone's kind of calmed down. And this is like the end of a long season. And they're like, let's just make them friends. And, you know, I have many memory alpha notes, so I'll try to run through them quickly. Very rarely do I spot that memory alpha tells a joke in the way that it formats its notes, but I'm going to throw this at you,
Episode Writing and Production
00:10:55
Speaker
Kristen. And you tell me but what's going on here.
00:10:59
Speaker
This was the last of five Star Trek Voyager episodes that Nick Sagan wrote for the show. And yes, he is the son of Carl Sagan, famous sci-fi writer. um He later reminisced. Sagan found this to be an enjoyable episode to write. He later reminisced.
00:11:14
Speaker
I think that might've been the easiest one I worked on because the goal is simply to have fun. With the others, they felt a lot of different loyalties to character this, character that. For some reason, this one came together very quickly and it was such a joy to write because we were just trying to please ourselves. Then the next note, executive producer Brandon Braga did a lot of uncredited rewriting on the episode. I bet. ah So some editorializing there, I thought that was pretty funny. Sagan also then said,
00:11:44
Speaker
I don't think it's an episode that needs to be studied per se or ruminated upon. You just go with it like a roller coaster ride. Sorry, Nick Sagan. we're We're going to study it and ruminate upon it. That's what we do here. This episode is the fifth time that Voyager is shown destroyed.
00:12:01
Speaker
Kablooey. Yes. In in very 90s TV visual effects, like this show should be remastered just to make the CGI look better. The ship shots, not all of them look very good. So the Utopia Planitia sequence that opens the episode It was like very basically described of like Voyager is in space stock being built or finished and that was it. And the visual effects people were like, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. We want to do something cool. So they basically did a lot of free work to populate it out and make it look like this is our first real opportunity to look at these shipyards that get have been talked about for so long. So they really blew it out. And that's, you know, love and passion, you know, and not Star Trek geeks being like ships.
00:12:48
Speaker
space stocks, ship construction. So that's cool. Apparently in the ping pong game, Kristen, Paris's winning strike is an illegal move. And it would have resulted in a point for Harry Kim and Bolana Torres. Oh, is it what did he do? I don't remember.
00:13:08
Speaker
he was gonna basically do like a so like a slam dunk or like you know slam it down and i guess you can't do that i don't i didn't know that what you do that never anyone who's ever played ping pong with their friends does exactly that so i don't know I this could just be some i mean like an Olympic table tennis. Okay, well, whatever.
Relativity Bridge Set Design
00:13:29
Speaker
That's what they're saying in memory off here. Okay, well, ah not having been a science fiction fan prior to her work on Voyager, Jerry Ryan found this time travel episode script difficult to follow. It was a challenge just keeping the timeframe straight, she admitted.
00:13:47
Speaker
And then according to the unauthorized reference book, Delta Quadrant, the bridge of the relativity, this shocked me, was a redress of the enterprise E bridge from first contact and insurrection and nemesis with interior design elements from both enterprise E and Voyager. So that, and then if you look at it, like, yes, that is basically the shape of the enterprise E, I guess, but what have they done to my beautiful boy? It doesn't look good at all.
00:14:15
Speaker
uh some casting tidbits we already mentioned Bruce McGill replaces Allen G Royal as Captain Braxton I think it's kind of a shame because I we both I think it's a huge shame actually because we both enjoyed uh his work in the other one uh actor Jay Carnes who plays Lieutenant Duquesne This is my note. He would appear again in Star Trek, but as a different character, Agent Wells. Or was he? But this was in Star Trek Picard season two, the worst is ah the worst season of Star Trek ever made. Just an awful dreadful season. We've killed all 10. People might want to say, oh, the first episode or two in the last episode. No, no, no. It was all bad.
00:14:52
Speaker
Just forget it ever happened. But he played a different character. And for half a minute, there were people online being like, is is that actually Duquesne? Because he's from the future and he travels back in time and as lean actor. But no, no, no, this is Agent Wells, who was a little kid, accidentally ran into Vulcans who were visiting Earth. And before they could like mind meld to erase him, they were beamed away because the Vulcans are stupid for dramatic purposes. It's dumb. See, when I explain it, it's even worse.
00:15:22
Speaker
This is stupid. Dumb. All right. Let's get into the grades. Oh, wait. Before we do, though, yeah can we have at the end, can we please add the Astra Burger word for bad food styling? I have a nomination for this okay episode. ah We need to do our pickup. I forgot to put that in the notes. Oh, that's okay. What was our last? Okay. All right.
00:15:42
Speaker
And it's just the hot toddy. Yes, let me. OK, let me. We don't have to do it because it's not that bad. because It's just a cup of milk. Kristen is correct. we We talked about putting this in and then we forgot to do it. So we're doing it now. The Astroburger Award for for best or worst.
00:16:00
Speaker
Food styling? Yeah. Okay. Just the Astroburger Memorial Award. I mean, Astroburger's still around, but... Yes. um Yes. So, I would like to nominate the hot... Aunt, whoever's hot toddy. Aunt Adele's hot toddy. Aunt Adele's hot toddy. Yes. That is looks like milk with maybe some water in it. And then Riker has to drink it. It looks pretty bad.
00:16:27
Speaker
Fair enough. And then you have one for this one or now there is no? Yeah. Do you want to do it like at the end or like at the end of the regular grade? Let's do it now. Let's just do it because we needed to remind everybody that we were going to do this. So just for this week, we'll we'll put it here next week. I'll make sure I'll put it in the list. So my nomination for Astra Burger Award for worst food styling is that horrible pot roast that Neelix is carrying around the mess hall. I have so much to say about the pot roast. Yeah.
00:16:56
Speaker
That pot roast looks terrible. The pot roast looks like it's on. It's on what? Like Astroburger. Yeah. If Astroburger sold a whole pot roast, this is where they got it. They got they went and got if it's even real, it might be plastic food. It looks like they like went and got a pot roast at the Vons and like microwaved it. So it was like really tough.
00:17:25
Speaker
and then like painted it or something. If it's even really food, because I'm not sold on that, it could be plastic. Oh, it's tough. on What would you say? A whole head of lettuce for garnish? A green leaf lettuce? I don't think Asher Burger would even put that garnish on it. it would just you know that i get They're like, oh yeah, ah make sure he's holding pot roast. By the way, pot roast usually is in like a pot That's why it's called Pot Roast. Yes, it's it's in the name. All right, then let's play a quick game of Fuck Mary Kill, Kristen Braxton, Duquesne, and then Admiral Daken Matthews, who's walking around Janeway at the beginning. Whoa, um I'm not prepared. we We're talking about Pot Roast.
00:18:21
Speaker
Well, one of the naked Matthews looks like a pot roast in that admiral's uniform. Oh, he does. God. OK, so Braxton is going to like murder everybody, so I'm going to kill him. Yeah. um I guess the admiral for practical, per wait, wait, this is admiral. Do we know, is he actually like stationed at Earth? Yes. Oh, OK.
Humorous Character Game
00:18:49
Speaker
Okay, so fuck that guy then marry the time ship guy I'll never see again. I mean, he's fine. Why would you marry the guy you're not going to see again? I don't particularly like any of their company, I don't think. I don't have any fondness for any of them.
00:19:13
Speaker
Fair enough. Yeah. ah i Are the three of them better or worse than the pot roast? I'm going to say they're better than the pot roast. Yeah, bad I don't want that pot roast. I mean, I guess so. If the if the admiral were not stationed on Earth and I didn't have to seem very much, then I would switch the fucking marry there. I think I would marry the admiral because I wouldn't have to fuck him and I would fuck Duquesne just because he's actually younger and absolutely you have to kill the threat of. Yeah.
00:19:42
Speaker
Yeah, but I mean, I don't know being married to old man doesn't sound like fun. But you're you're you are also a man. So maybe it'd be more fun for you. Like, you i don't know, ah well a young woman being married to an old man is just sad. He's so a feat and weak. I just feel like the woman could be settled and so or like still have a life that he can't do anything about. What's he going to I mean, I know he's in bed by seven. So you don't know that.
00:20:12
Speaker
You're just assuming that, like, he's old, so therefore I was like, no sex drive and isn't gonna, like, start groping me in the middle of the night. That's just not the case. They could do that at any age. Yes, that's what I'm saying. And therefore, I don't i don't have any affection for this person. All right, great scenes. Okay.
00:20:35
Speaker
Basically, I'm just like, who can I marry who I'll never have to see again? Yeah. yeah yeah and it's If it's a person I don't actually know. All right. Okay. I have like four, I think. Okay. So Jamie walking onto the ship for the first time. It's It's nice. It's nostalgic. Okay. um And then um when the doctor is treating seven of nine, and she's like, Oh, no, I did a self-diagnosis diagnostic. I have this ancient human disease.
00:21:08
Speaker
The, yes, the WebMD, proto WebMD scene. Yeah. And he's like, ah no one's had that for like 200 years. like Yeah. I like the contrast between when the doctor first cut we first see the doctor on the first day of Wager to him being like, I have a bedside manner now. ah Yes, that's that's a nice writing contrast. But i ah the way Janeway looks and the way he acts is still not quite right.
00:21:39
Speaker
Like she's first of all, Kate Mulgrew, I think is a beautiful woman and a great actor, but she clearly does not look like how she looks five years earlier doing the show. So that was tough. But also he was still in the current doctor mode. He his voice. Do you remember his voice was lower and much more serious and clipped. Yeah. And and now it's more like more of like and a rolling thespian actor. And he was still kind of in that mode. But yes, from a writing standpoint, I was like,
00:22:07
Speaker
That was pretty great. Like no bedside, then he had it. and also And then the scene where we learned that Braxton actually did have to do a bunch of serious rehabilitation after being stranded in the 20th century for three decades and like roaming the street as a homeless person. i just because those i We were wondering, like, they just left him there?
00:22:31
Speaker
Right. To run a prison cell, probably. That's why it actually makes more sense if Jane we have been like, you said you didn't remember this time. It's like, yeah, why like that would have been just as fine. Yeah, I lied because of of the temporal prime directive. I had a lie, but it turns out maybe that's the only way they they could have gotten out of it that way, I think. Yeah. um And then I'm just going to put like.
00:22:59
Speaker
The whole act of finding out it the bad guy is actually Braxton and him going, yes, I am crazy, obviously. And then the the chase. Yes. Then it's on. Yeah. That whole sequence, the whole, all those scenes I really liked.
00:23:20
Speaker
Any other ones? No, that's it. But that is almost like the entire last act of the show. Although last two acts of the show I didn't define it quite that cleanly. Like I didn't leave it that open because there's some goofiness with having character actor Bruce McGill running, which I thought kind of robbed, ah robbed it of its like intensity. But yeah, like, Oh, yeah, he' going to catch up to him somehow.
00:23:44
Speaker
I liked, but I liked the beat or the moment where the doctor responds to the medical emergency and sick bait. And then that's how we learn that there's time fracturing. He shows up before the actual call that he received. I thought that was like a cool Star Trek mystery and neat idea. I liked the moment where Seven of Nine is trapped in the force field and she's confronted by Janeway. And of course, Janeway is like, I will let time fall apart. I will destroy the dynamic of reality.
00:24:13
Speaker
If you don't answer my question. but Yeah, that's that's how Janeway is. Yeah. but So I liked her confessing and explaining the situation. I thought that was a great scene. Nice acting by ah Jerry Ryan and cable reacting to her. And then the scene where Duquesne explains everything to Janeway about why they need her help.
00:24:34
Speaker
And then she kind of agrees and is dragged in the situation because it's it's kind of goofy. And ah maybe Kate Mulgrew is almost playing it too goofy to rob it of its seriousness. But I had in my mind, because we just watched it, just like these time paradoxes. Fuck them. Like the past and the future. like And so she's playing that in a way. Like you can see this through line of she's like, yes, it's serious, but I really don't like having to think about any of this stuff. So I thought that was great. So those are my three best trek tropes. OK.
00:25:05
Speaker
The doctor is such a sassy fucking little bitch. it's i i he like They program this doctor to just be like, In some ways, like a real doctor. Right. And then we have seven of nine is mega awkward around people, especially men. So when she goes back, when they already kidnapped her, and then send her back in time, she's trying to interact with one of the male crew members. And it's just like super awkward for her. That's a great one. I never I didn't realize that. No, that's a perfect one. ah Good Voyager trope.
00:25:42
Speaker
ah space sickness seven
00:25:49
Speaker
Captain Janeway knowing the ship inside and out and like she correctly saying inertial dampers ah That the scripts that's what they're technically called nerds Star Trek geeks is dampers But in the later shows and other and other times it's been dampeners because that intuitively makes sense You're dampening the effects of grant of gravity but the actual technical term at least the way they installed it in technical manual dampers and of course Janeway knows that so she said the correct word so anyway but yeah temporal violations yes
00:26:25
Speaker
And Janeway has had enough of this time traveling bullshit. Perfect. I have two technical Star Trek tropes that just made me laugh, even though as I just said, they robbed the last act of some of its intensity. And it's basically one of them is Star Trek acting. So Bruce McGill Braxton has to act like he's run into a force field. And and so I can just imagine him doing that against, ah you know, air there's still on the set. He just looks very funny doing that. But the same is like shaking when the ship shakes and all that stuff. So I just look funny and charming in a way. So I like that. But then the other one is Jerry Ryan acting against herself in a split screen of
00:27:10
Speaker
very obvious with screen. Yes. But like great Star Trek technology all the same. So I appreciated those just because it's like this episode is kind of like p it's just basically pulpy.
Nick Sagan on Episode Style
00:27:23
Speaker
You know, it's just like a p like as Nick Sagan says, a a pulpy good time. But maybe Brandon Braga is like, it's not as fun as you thought it it it was. I had to do some work.
00:27:34
Speaker
ah Worst Trek tropes. I have a few. Well, she could die. Who cares? We but can't contaminate the timeline. One thing to track through Star Trek history, at least from next generation on, because in the original series, the chance for Shatner to catch a falling woman, he's like right there. But like something in next generation on, like women falling, just watching how the men react to that, like over time, it's just they're kind of like, ah yeah hu should we help her now?
00:28:10
Speaker
any um that's kind of it i didn't really have any like i have for bad ones but i i don't know i have two mean ones and apologies to the diehard voyager fans out there so i'll start small Cause I only have three, the carpet, like even knowing that the timeship is a redress of the enterprise E bridge that carpet they installed. Cause I don't think that's in there for the enterprise E bridge. I think there's a lot more like metal plating or, you know, rubber or whatever. It looks terrible. And just knowing that they're in the 29th century really kind of ruins the effect.
00:28:52
Speaker
that it's carpeted just like their normal 24th century sets. I don't know. It was distracting and I didn't appreciate it that. Although do you think the carpet, as we saw in Strange New Worlds, if it's if it's not carpeted, people are s slipping and sliding and can't even do a simple dance number down the corridor. A simple, very simply choreographed with regular shoes.
00:29:21
Speaker
ah There's been so many interviews with with the people making that show, that particular episode, and I have not heard the the floors question come up. And that would be my first one, and it would, yeah I feel like it would derail the interview immediately. Because I would say, phrase the only way to phrase it is, is the reason why the choreography was was limited, is because the floors are so slippery. Or, or they dancing on them is so loud.
00:29:49
Speaker
that's like difficult to concentrate. Because again, it's like slips. It's like sounds like a basketball game. I should put in some sound effects here. It sounds like we're running a pick and roll out there.
00:30:10
Speaker
yeah
00:30:14
Speaker
They call them globetrotters, right?
00:30:18
Speaker
yeah
00:30:22
Speaker
like The scenes where they have choreography, they're like in a different set where I think you could put down like something, a different floor, like some grips or something.
00:30:35
Speaker
antilip I just got Anson Mount running the fast break up in my head now. He's downtown. Yep. To be clear, his his jersey is the apron and he's wearing yeah all shorts. No shirt is the apron. Yeah, just like the little undershirt. I'm glad we had this. Yes, I'm glad we had this laugh before I got a little mean. Oh, OK. One of my other worst trek tropes is Neelix.
00:31:04
Speaker
He looks so yeah dumb with that pot roast, just holding it. and Put it down. A guy just fell in the mess hall, which you are in charge of. And you're still standing there holding stupid roast because they all like. It reminded me of. ah The two weeks of episode where Jane weighs, like, actually, his food's much better than Neelix's. And I'm like, I like that. Just sticking in my head and like.
00:31:33
Speaker
Tuvix was like more competent, but of course we would have lost Tuvok if we hadn't split the two, but. Also the morale officer is keeping score in a little tiny pad. There's not like a scoreboard or like he's not dressed as like a cheerleader. That would have been funny. You know what I mean? Like, but it just, Neelix just an awful idea, poorly executed but every time.
00:32:01
Speaker
And then the other one is the Voyager crew being dumb, which is a normal thing we we tend to do. But um I guess dumb is is too mean, but basically being not really Star Trek-y. So a ping pong ball freezes in midair and they all just stand there with their mouths. and you Not one of them goes, what is this cool shit? That's similar to much cool shit we experience on literally Voyager.
00:32:27
Speaker
every week there's something weird going on and they're all standing there like they've what you've never seen a ping pong ball freeze suspended midair before you're on a starship with variable gravity like there's lots of reasons and they're looking at it like they're in a like in a horror movie or something they just like but if that happened to any other star trek crew it would have been a different reaction. Like someone would have gotten out of tricorder at least. Well, that's what seven does. And it's like, yeah, maybe that's part of the capable person. Yeah. Seven of nine is constantly doing this stuff. but im Like when, uh, yeah, there's been episodes where there's been time fractures and then data pulls out his tricorder, but Jordy would have been like leaned forward and been like, Jordy would have been all over that shit. and they They would have been curious and they weren't curious. They just looked like idiots. So I just.
00:33:17
Speaker
Yeah. Also, I think Jordy and Data would have smoked anyone on Voyager at ping pong. it would so Yes, Data and Jordy on one team and then Worf and Riker on the other team. That would have been. ah Yeah. Worf would not be good at ping pong and he would now he wouldn't bothered by the game of ping pong. He'd be bothered that he wasn't winning at it, no. And then when he went to slam the ah ball and Neelix, that's an illegal move. He would have murdered, like torn Neelix's head off or something.
00:33:56
Speaker
ah Most cosplayable character a moment. Having said all that, Kristen, I said Neelix holding that stupid pot roast would probably be the best cosplay. Yeah, i think that my I think that yes. However, I did like just the ping pong tournament of everybody on a like around a ping pong table that might be a fun cosplay. That'd be a good one. With a ball in the middle, floating in the air on a fishing line.
00:34:22
Speaker
Yes, if you were dressed as Neelix, though, you could, again, like attach something around your waist where there's like a ping pong table, and then you could have the Playmates toys of all those characters. yeah And then you could be like, I'm Neelix, keeping score. But Neelix carrying the fucking pot roast, honestly, it looks like a the shape of a ham that they like dressed as a piece of beef. yeah Yeah. I mean, honestly, if he was my morale officer,
00:34:53
Speaker
I would have just jumped down to space a long time ago. Now it's time for the line, Mr. John. Here, great lines. um When Tom Paris tries to get Seven of Nine to be on his ping pong team, or play ping pong with him, ah Seven of Nine says, you're attempting to appeal to my vanity. And Tom says, is it working? Yes.
00:35:17
Speaker
And then when Seven of Nine is on the time shift with Braxton, uh, he's explaining to her how many times they brought her back. And then he's like, and that bringing her back too much could kill her. And they're like, but in your case, we're hoping third time's a charm, eh?
00:35:38
Speaker
Uh, your captain has a knack for sticking her nose where it doesn't belong, especially when it comes to time travel. Oh, that you got to back up that line a little bit more because that is one more thing. Watch out for the Janeway factor. I was like, hell yes. That bitch left me.
00:36:01
Speaker
That was the subject. Sent the Santa Monica PD after me. I was 51 15. Yep. She rolled her eyes and pretended not to know me and they took me away. Filled me with primitive pharmaceuticals. Yeah. Was a Cardassian totalitarian. Yeah. And then when Janeway says, is this part of the tour ah when Like all hell's breaking loose. Right. so Yeah. Waka Waka. Duquesne to Seven of Nine. So he's explained. ah It was cool. You know what? I didn't put it as a best trek joke. So maybe I need to put it in here.
00:36:45
Speaker
time travel and paradoxes and the fact that in the 29th century the time ships the you know star fleet will have time fleet whatever will have different paradox rules and so they're explaining like the pogo paradox the dolly paradox all that stuff the pogo paradox is basically brain and braga writing in like that movie i wrote star trek first contact the plot is a part of that so ducane says so in a way the federation knows its existence to the borg and seven of nine says you're welcome But yeah that was a funny realization. Braxton, when he's walking seven of nine through what they needed her to do, he says, thanks to you, we've learned the temporal disruptor was and will be concealed here. I gave up trying to, sorry, thanks to you, we've learned the temporal disruptor was and will be concealed here. I gave up trying to keep my tenses straight years ago. That is probably a cool
00:37:37
Speaker
you know, idiosyncrasy of working in the temporal investigations or time department, right? They're just like, nah, we talked this way. but Yeah, the best has been. ah Tuvik. I put Tuvix. Oh my God. Tuvok. Oh no. Tuvok's line. RIP. Like most time paradoxes, it's implausible, but not necessarily illogical. Okay. but I just thought it was a great line. It's funny. And then the best line of the episode for sure is just Bruce, a closeup on Bruce McGill as Braxton saying, Janeway.
00:38:13
Speaker
Janeway. Yes. This is, I mean, making jade way, basically a rascal or a fly in the ointment is robot house. yeah that's right ah Would this be a fun home novel to play out?
00:38:28
Speaker
Um, I think possibly it's got a like on safe mode.
Potential of Temporal Transport as Play Setting
00:38:37
Speaker
You don't want to feel the effects of temporal transport. No, because I mean, a lot of people are puking their guts out. Yeah. We don't see it on screen. Thank God. Cause puking on television for a very long time, standards and practices in those networks did not allow that. Yeah.
00:38:53
Speaker
until a horrible show called Fear Factor came out. but Anyway, fun story. It's true. um Yeah, I think so. I think it could be like kind of a mystery-ish kind of thing to try to figure out, but it wouldn't be the most fun one.
00:39:09
Speaker
Oh, you know, I think it would be in the top tier. It'd be one of the more fun ones jumping around eras that you were maybe already kind of familiar with, but we're seeing it from maybe a slightly different perspective. i Anyway, the Anton Caridian Award for Best Performance. um Who do you have? Because I was thinking about giving it to Jerry Ryan.
00:39:31
Speaker
Yeah, that's who I had. OK. I mean, this this is not a particularly emotional episode. There's not really it's not really about anything. So then it's just seven of nine having to play different moods and being believable in all of them. Like when she sees herself dying.
00:39:47
Speaker
You know, she's reacting as like, oh, shit, I'm dying. And then the dying version of her is like, what can I like, you can see her performance in her eyes register as what can I say to myself to cut through all of my hesitation, you know, cut the bullshit and like set myself on this goal. Go find Braxton. That's all that matters.
00:40:09
Speaker
And then you can see the performance give into that. And then we've seen Kate Mulgrew look at Jerry Ryan with a lot of contempt that since Seven of Nine joined the show. And I thought she was if only because she was tired of fighting this for two years. Like you could just see her being like invested or like this is a person I when Jerry Ryan or Seven said all those kind things.
00:40:37
Speaker
She kind of, it looked like it could maybe be playing on two levels, but, um, but that's because Jerry Ryan seems sincere when she said all those nice things. So it's got to be, also, I'm happy for her that she got to wear just a regular uniform for some of this episode, instead of yeah the, um, you know, the cat suit, yes the, uh, torture device they call the costume. Yeah.
00:41:00
Speaker
Uh, and there was a note in memory alpha that I just didn't mention, but like she had just a few days before she got the script had been on like an AOL fan chat or something. She's like, they're like, when are you going to wear like a normal uniform? She's like, Oh, that's never going to happen. And she didn't explain why cause it was the nineties. Uh, and then like, literally a few days later, she got that script. So she thought that was funny. Uh, the Shatner then. Uh, Braxton. So that, okay. So that.
00:41:25
Speaker
is definitely going for it, but I think he's more bad acting than, like, you know, committed to it. I think he seems... Yeah, couldn't it be both? It could be both, but I wanted to offer Kaitlyn Grew as a shadow, because she's going for it. In the beginning, she's playing remember cable who is very tired by the end of a 26 episode season where she's been denied seeing her kids and all that stuff in the five years on the network TV show. And she looks kind of tired in the beginning, even though she's supposed to be playing a much younger version of herself. And so she's trying to go for by being all peppy and excited. And then she's doing a lot of eye rolling and a lot of huh, when they're explaining all the time stuff.
00:42:13
Speaker
the time jargon so yeah kind of just going for it in the moment of like this is ridiculous i'm just gonna act like this is ridiculous because jane way would think it's ridiculous uh so that would that would be my suggestion she's just going for it to convey and i just think bruce mcgill doesn't know what he's saying half the time and so yeah he doesn't know where he is is Oh, he's very clear. Once he's very clear on like, I point a gun and I hate this person. Got it. Like, then locked in. He's like, I'm playing a bad guy. Got it. So I don't know. but Well, we'll see a tie or you want. It's fine. It doesn't matter to me that much. All right. Shoot to thrill. Most exciting image or sequence. I'm going to say the space doc. Oh, OK. That's all right. We'll go with that early.
00:43:04
Speaker
And I'm glad that you touched on it earlier, that I, you know, that they fleshed it out a whole bunch, like the shipyard and everything. So it looked impressive for a reason. That's great. No study though. So, uh, I think I, for me though, I honorable mentioned moments before the ship blows up. So it's good that we get to see the yeah thing that happens. It's, you know, they're all, and Janeway's also like,
00:43:30
Speaker
Kate Mulgrew's performing of like, oh shit, I didn't complete the premise of the show. I didn't complete our mission. Like we're not getting home. We're not getting it. Like it's just, you kind of feel the hopelessness and all that stuff. So I thought that was like a really interesting sequence ah as well. So what part of this will he teach at Cirque Fleet Academy? Like the chrono particle, whatever they called.
00:43:53
Speaker
things. The chronaton variance. The chronaton variance, whatever. Detects, yeah. ah Well, I said nothing because you can't they can't tell anyone what happened. But true. and start Well, they're not teaching them the correct rules of ping pong. That's for sure. yeah Not teaching them about ping pong. That's for sure. Or how to make a pot roast. even though Yeah, that's what they should. Yeah, they thought they need to have a cooking 101 in case.
00:44:18
Speaker
Like cooking with a replicator one on one and the ah students are going to be Christopher Pike and nele even though they didn't really have replicators to the same extent. So because this episode takes place in the 24th century and the 29th century, we can then extend it out to the presumptive 32nd century Star Trek show Starfleet Academy.
00:44:45
Speaker
does not come out yet. It only just started filming when we're shooting. Oh, it's supposed to come out. It's supposed to take take place in the Discovery era. Yes, in era. So they would actually be able to teach lessons about this episode because it would not, you know, it would be, it wouldn't. I thought the first episode of Discovery took place.
00:45:06
Speaker
much earlier. This is why I'll never torture you. Sorry. I would never drop you in ah at this point. After season two, the season finale of season two of Star Trek Discovery is them taking Discovery into the distant future, the 32nd century. And so it's from season three, four, you know, season three, four and five. So when is it supposed to take place in the first season then?
00:45:33
Speaker
in the 23rd century, about 10 years before the original series. That's what I thought. Okay. Jumps to the 32nd century and they hit the ground. Looks like you talk about yeah Spock. Yes. Seems like that would be ancient history. Season one, yes. ok It is, it is, but ok anyway. You know, I don't think that shows for me.
00:45:56
Speaker
It's not for a lot of people, but so because this takes place in the 29th century as well, it's conceivable that some lessons from that would survive into the 32nd century. In this case, like how the Borg... Oh, they like the Lieutenant Duquesne Center for...
00:46:17
Speaker
Well, I wanted to do this. Yeah, for a mutiny avoidance or something. I don't know. That's right. Because Duquesne mutinies in like a in like a ah minority report situation. Yes. Yes. I always put that down, but I'm like, it's not really a Star Trek trope.
00:46:34
Speaker
Right. It's still tough. It's like I haven't done anything. Yeah. It's like, well, but you will. Yeah. And then we actually have proof positive. Yeah. Is it you telling me that in my terrifying fear of being arrested or killed enough to change the future? Nope. No. Or we don't care if it did. We, we gotcha. Uh, but what What we know in the 32nd century that encompasses all the previous history that they could teach is what Duquesne says to Seven of Nine, which I always thought was, which I thought was weird ah when it was written, because it's like, wait, you're saying that the Borg implants can see the time variance, which their sensors, it's better than what their time tech
00:47:22
Speaker
You know, like there is this relativity has dedicated technology to detecting variances in the timeline and all that stuff. But nope, this Borg receiver can actually is better at it. And so that was weird, but it makes more sense if you consider that in Star Trek Picard it season three, ah Picard and crew basically ended the Borg. And that was in the 25th century, the very beginning of the 25th century. So.
00:47:47
Speaker
So it's been a long time. So that would be something that they would teach for sure. Probably. Yeah. And I'm glad i hope they stick to that cause I'm kind of sick at the board at this point. Right. Yeah. Could this episode have been hornier? And with that, it made it better.
00:48:04
Speaker
I mean, there wasn't really any horniness was there? No, we had the awkwardness that you pointed out, which is, yeah, recall that's yeah not the same. I mean, Neelix wasn't even lusting for that pot roast.
00:48:17
Speaker
Um, there was no, Harry Kim wasn't, uh, flush playing the flute or whatever. Yeah. Physical activity of flute or the clear net. Uh, who cares? it's Yeah. I mean, he's playing across from seven of nine, who he ostensibly has a crush on and they're doing a physical activity together. He's like, not even looking at her like, you know, so yeah.
00:48:43
Speaker
Uh, but I, Duquesne, there was a vague hint that maybe Duquesne was, was, was vibing on Seven of Nine. Yes. Yes. And she might have- But we had to keep it profesh for this one. For the, for the, for all for the time. yeah the time all time yeah the the the For the timeline. For the future of Voyager. But the,
00:49:07
Speaker
if this episode had been about anything, and I think we are pretty well cemented on it, was not about anything except a romp. Like you could have taken that moment where Seven of Nine seems a little awkward and is not here and, or like, she's like, he's very professional or he knows more than I do and I can learn from him and somehow that's attractive to me. Or I just like the way he looks, you know what I mean? Like, but they hadn't yet done boy Seven of Nine tries out dating in this intro. Oh, okay.
00:49:37
Speaker
So maybe that's why. Also, so in season two of Loki, they do this exact same thing with someone going back over and over again for like ever and ever. And there's no horniness in that either. And that bothered me. Like you're spending all this time and you not even going to. Like try. I'm not even going to try. Yeah, yeah I can take a break.
00:50:04
Speaker
I kind of feel like that's the this is the the stake in the ground of what's happening to us culturally where you have a woman dressed like seven of nine and we're just not going to say anything about it because it's not for the people in the show. It's for the people watching the show or flipping through channels and what will make them stop boobs.
00:50:27
Speaker
Just like that. Yeah, they they could they're like, well, we can't have them just out. Yeah, right. that it That wouldn't be professional in the workplace. Right. So let's have her in the skin tight thing, but in this like plate under her breasts that accentuate them. Yeah. Otherwise, she'll just have to wear a regular uniform like everybody else. And we don't want that. And the costume has to be built in such a way that only high heels make sense. Oh, my God.
00:50:58
Speaker
i I mean, it's so horrible. I mean, you could just hear the winking of the people approving these designs. I know. like It's just. but Just put her in a fucking miniskirt then. Like if it's, you know, like, I don't know. This reminds me, the NAA Visitor has written a book, Star Trek opened a channel. Oh, I did see that. So check that out. It's about her experience and many of the women in Star Trek's experience ah being women in the franchise. And i think I can't wait to read it. I think it's going to be a vital perspective after all these years. If there's people who have a close mind to this, then I kind of feel like, well, if you've been taking every part of the buffalo, I guess, learning everything you can about Star Trek, this is pretty important because women have been treated in this franchise different from the men.
00:51:54
Speaker
but That's what that's inarguable. It's like so it's ah can't wait to see it. ah Jerry Ryan has been very open in convention circuits and interviews and all that stuff. So maybe you get this and you won't hear any. Yeah, we're not saying anything that she hasn't said already. Yeah. ah But ah Marina Sertes is the only one who's doesn't have like a fresh interview in this one of the people who are still alive. She just didn't want to do it. So Anyway, it's, yeah, it's weird. When you think about it that way, it's like, okay, so it's just titillating for the viewer and it's not connected to the story, which makes it even, which, how could you connect it to
Episode Enjoyment and Rating
00:52:35
Speaker
the story? I don't know, but to always deny it. You know what I mean? It's like, it just makes it clear. Like, uh, this is, uh, anyway, trek, marry, or kill relativity. Um, I actually enjoyed this episode, so I'm going to give it a trek. What?
00:52:51
Speaker
ah Sometimes you say it that way and I'm like, what do you mean by that? I actually do you think i don't think you'll enjoy it? is I think you probably don't think I enjoy Voyager episodes. Oh, no, no, no, no. Oh, OK. I don't know what you think about a lot of the shows. I hope you know that I go in every Voyager episode half tuned out. OK. Like I'm it's not like I don't dread Voyager at this point. I used to dread it. The only shows I dread revisiting for sure are Enterprise. Yeah.
00:53:21
Speaker
and for sure Discovery, which we're doing season five right now and i'm and that's not a tease on my grades. at I actually like season five quite a lot. so And of course, Star Trek Picard season two. And season one, we're gonna be revisiting and I'm not looking forward to that.
00:53:41
Speaker
Yeah. So I give this one a trek as well, but I will say that I think as much as you like the opening sequence on the utopia, Planitia and all that stuff, or on Voyager, the first, until we figure out what's really going on, until Seven of Nine, the episode for me doesn't really kick it until Seven of Nine, the one who. Oh, agree and after yeah I agree, because I literally was looking at I stopped.
00:54:08
Speaker
the, I paused it and made sure I was actually watching the right episode. Yeah. Because I was like, Oh, shit. Am I watching the fucking pilot again, accidentally? and I don't want to get 15 minutes in and realize I'm watching the same because Paramount Plus is not the easiest thing to navigate. huge that They changed the interface again. So you used to easily switch toggle between seasons. And at least Oh, yeah. um No, you can't do that. like And you can't do it. It's um And also, if you press like resume, it will not play the last thing of that show that you were watching. it's Learn that the hard way when you have like a five-year-old who's like, this isn't the Paddington episode that I was watching before I took a bath. So thanks, Paramount+. plus Yeah, exactly. This episode, though, has no juice for the first 15, 20 minutes, yeah I don't think. and And so the fact that it picks up
00:54:59
Speaker
and it picks up to a very, I think, entertaining degree is what saves it pretty well, so. And we see her boy Braxton again, although it I was like, that ain't him, but. I know. it's so I mean, I wonder what the story with that is. Instead, they're like, well, you know Bruce McGill, he's a great character actor. He's certainly been great in other things. if you're If you're online a lot, if you're on film, Twitter, you know the most famous scene for a certain cohort of online Twitter fans in the year 2024 is his lawyer scene in The Insider. And he's great. i just like But throw techno babble at him, and he's got like two days to shoot.
00:55:34
Speaker
12 or 15 pages and he's got to play different versions of himself. No, he's not. That's not was not a strength. But he and Deacon Matthews, I think, have done like, you know, they've been in a lot of stuff. So nice to see them. Next week, though, Kristen, this is going to be a Chakotay centered time travel episode.
00:55:57
Speaker
it's ah It's an adventure, and it's called Shattered. And in that one, it's much closer to the Face the Strange episode of Discovery. And that one, on every deck, it's a different era from Voyager. That's what's going on there. OK.
00:56:13
Speaker
ah Anyway, ah we're on the web, trekmarikillpod.com. Check that out for all of our standings. Trekmarikaypod on social media. Stay tuned in our Discovery episodes for our announcement about our Star Trek Discovery Complete series.
00:56:27
Speaker
Blu-ray giveaway and what you need to do to give yourself a chance to receive that giveaway. Oh, and don't forget to check out our animated spotlights. ah We've started those up again. Katie Hampton and I looked at episodes three and four of Lower Decks ah second season. You can check those out. One of those episodes includes Tom Paris in it, so even more Voyager.
00:56:49
Speaker
for everybody there. um The commemorative plate, which is one of the best Lordex gags that they had, for sure. The idea of just putting to that anyone would care to put Tom Paris on a commemorative plate is tickles me. It's great. All right, so check the all that out. Look forward to all that. And until next week, TMK out. Bye.