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#85 - Celia Southier | Head of Talent Acquisition @ Moss
115 Plays4 months ago
Celia has over 10 years of experience across recruiting and HR, mostly within large tech organizations but more recently within start-ups. She is currently the Head of Talent Acquisition at Moss, overseeing a small team of TA partners across Berlin and London. In this role, she’s been responsible for professionalizing the company’s hiring approach and interviewing practices. Prior to Moss, Celia spent six years at Amazon in London, where she held senior positions in talent acquisition, focusing on tech recruiting delivery, and change management programs across EMEA.
Shownotes
00:00 - Intro & Context
06:54 - Erfahrungen im Tech-Recruiting bei Amazon und Wechsel zur Personalplanung
11:51 - Herausforderungen und Veränderungen bei Moss
16:54 - Die Bedeutung von Recruiting Operations und Datenqualität
Links
Thomas Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/thomas-kohler-pplwise/
Thomas e-mail: [email protected]
pplwise: https://pplwise.com/
Recommended
Transcript
Challenges in Measuring Productivity
00:00:00
Speaker
Today's guest, Celia Saltier.
00:00:07
Speaker
First of all, there was 25 recruiters on a lot of capacity and then you said productivity. How did you measure productivity and what does this mean for you? So back then there wasn't any measure of productivity. Like the the initial problem was the date we couldn't rely on the data that we had in our system. So people were hired like outside of our ATS. And so we couldn't really track back hires. And then there were all these freelancers that were. also kind of being loosely used within this whole ecosystem. So, I mean, I couldn't really measure productivity. All I could say is if you kind of looked at it on an agglomerate level, there were obviously um some people that
00:00:50
Speaker
that weren't doing as much as others. But it was it was difficult to make that assessment. The only kind of thing that helped there is is you know we did have to visit visit the headcount from what it was initially. um and And then you know it was no longer we're hiring 500 people, but it's maybe you know half or less. than ah okay So the team that was built to hire 500 people is not going to have to hire you know a lot less. so So that's kind of what led us to you know really have to downsize that team significantly. um and But yeah, it just was impossible to really measure productivity. Now it's a difficult story, but we're talking about back then and back then it it was it was really challenging to do. How is it now?
00:01:42
Speaker
So now, I mean, the data that we use is is a lot. um So everything is in our ATS. um You know, the hires that we make are are all tracked. and We also um can trace it back to like, you know, the recruiter and who it's credited to. So productivity, I look at, there's the absolute numbers, which is like how many hires per recruiter. And, you know, I don't love that number, but it it does give you a bit of a sense check of, you know, what do you expect someone that's fully ramped up to produce? Obviously, it's different across tech and non-tech and things like that. But, you know, if you do have someone in your team that
00:02:22
Speaker
you don't know why they're not making any hires consistently, then that's a first signal. But what I really care about in the team is more about um the quality metrics, so kind of the the pass-through rates along um our process, you know the time spent in each stage, the candidate experience. um That's really what I look at um every month with the rest of the team to say, okay, well, we're a small and nimble team. We have to use our time the best we can.
00:02:56
Speaker
And so the best way to kind of optimize for that is making sure that, you know, the candidates we speak with and the candidates we decide to pass through, um they're going to do well at the next stages so that, you know, in terms of efficiency and time, it it is something that helps us also be more productive um in that way. And also looking at our channels, ah which channels um you know are We get the biggest bang for our buck, you know employee referrals, um maybe for some jobs it is LinkedIn sometimes, um maybe it's you know other other channels um out there, maybe it's sourcing only.
Transitioning to Data-Driven Recruitment
00:03:38
Speaker
In that case, you know does it even make sense to publish the role? We always publish the role, but you know those are kind of the some of the questions to look at also in terms of productivity.
00:03:52
Speaker
Cecilia and I talked about the quality of hire, how to transition from an environment where you cannot rely on data to an environment where you can backwards plan, forecast scientifically what is possible but not and why. And um along the way, we also philosophized and discussed what quality of hire could mean, what it means for Moss, what it meant for maybe Amazon, and what um was really important in terms of considering when measuring and interpreting it. So I think it's a very, very valuable episode with very specific stories, specific insights, um and just super useful for everybody in talent acquisition.
00:04:39
Speaker
Then you can build trust and then you can spend less time communicating and more time just getting shit done. Then I went home and and thought about this
Celia Saltier's Career Journey and Experience
00:04:46
Speaker
sentence. We basically put it on the table. Hiring takes time. People are trained. How to objectively judge certain situations. It's very, very, very, very hard to change things. That was the learning. Entrepreneurs with empathy. To the people's side. Great to have you finally on my show, Celia. So I think we met two years ago at a dinner organized by Ashby. um Then we always met somewhere, um never really did a podcast. Then we also did a dinner, which I organized and very recently just met again. um I saw you in a lot of events and now we are finally here talking about quality of hire and um what to measure, what to not measure and why. And um I really love the background you have as well for that, but maybe we can start with a short introduction by yourself um to give us some context first.
00:05:36
Speaker
Yeah, for sure, yeah. ah Super happy to spend a bit of time with you on on this podcast for sure. um So in terms of my background, so um maybe that's, ah so I'm originally from from Switzerland, I'm from like the French speaking region, but I haven't lived in Switzerland for about eight years and that coincides a little bit with kind of when I got into recruiting. um So I moved to London, um felt like I needed a bit of a breath of fresh air and and kind of moved from Geneva to
00:06:14
Speaker
to London and then I joined Amazon there um and I was working in tech recruiting in the the crazy days um of of that time where um we were having, I don't know, 40 interviews per week. We were going on to these and interview events abroad um it was it was really exciting but it was um you know it got to a point where it was a bit always the same thing you know you kind of rinse and repeat you're always hiring the same software development engineers it's very high volume so at some point i wanted to kind of shift my focus on more of like a hands-off role so i moved internally within amazon to a program manager role which is
00:06:57
Speaker
typically kind of um a group of people that roll out, I don't know, automation or change management programs um across the company. ah Did a little stint actually, because it was during COVID that I kind of made that move where um I joined this COVID task force at Amazon where we had to essentially build and hire um anything needed for a lab to test frontline employees. So got a bit of a taste for like the startup speed because we essentially did all of that in three months because we needed to kind of test our frontline employees um at Amazon and then kind of got back into the normal rhythm of of Amazon and felt, you know, after a while um I had learned a lot, but I needed a bit of a change of of of scenery and moved to Berlin, joined a startup, um which is um Moss. i'm still I'm still with Moss. I'm two years in.
00:07:54
Speaker
um and started with ah recruiting operations at the time the company had not really any interview processes, not really any checks and balances in terms of like the headcount planning. um So I kind of rolled that out and then um started kind of heading the the TA team, which is my current role. So I'm i'm managing the time acquisition team at Moss in Berlin, um small team of of six people. um And yeah, that brings us to so today.
Scaling and Recruiting Operations at Moss
00:08:28
Speaker
and I think also Moss really scaled up from zero very rapidly back then, right? Wasn't that the case? Did you really hired crazy?
00:08:39
Speaker
Yeah, it it was, I think, you know, like ah when I was interviewing with startups, this was like end of 2021, right? Like that was the peak peak moment in terms of scale ups and hyper growth. And so most like a lot of scale ups at that time was just growing, um you know, like like crazy. There were some and insane numbers kind of thrown out in terms of like who we needed to hire in 12 months. um But there was a deliberate focus on having someone in recruiting operations to kind of set the foundation in order for that to scale, but it was already a bit too late, I think. um So when I joined, it was already it was already really big. um And it was kind of on this trajectory where um like a lot of other companies had to course correct.
00:09:29
Speaker
um And so since then it's it's a totally different company like honestly um I mean obviously a lot of people have have have left and a lot of new people were hired but also how we operate it's it's so different we really. For example, our interview process, we call it attribute-based, but it's like skill-based hiring, right? So um we have like intentional set of skills that we assess in the interview process versus like a series of conversations without
00:10:01
Speaker
any sort of aim and then at the end you know a sort of random decision that's made which was a bit of the case before. um So yeah it it feels like a completely different company but for for the better it's not perfect. um There's still a lot that we need to work on but I think we've there's been a massive learning curve for sure and and me included and the rest of the organization yeah. It's really cool and um When you started, let's say with the whole recruiting operations focus project or um area, what was the situation and how did you prioritize
Prioritizing and Streamlining Recruiting Operations
00:10:41
Speaker
it? Because I think that's so valuable that you did that and that also companies hiring into recruiting operations. And it doesn't have to be always a full role, but it has to be a ah priority phase to set it up in a certain way.
00:10:56
Speaker
um yeah What did you find and what did you then end up doing? Yeah, yeah yeah it's it's such a good point because I was having similar conversations for similar roles in other companies. um And some of those companies were way larger, you know like Series C or or even D. um And they were kind of like hiring someone in recruiter recruiting operations at that point in time. versus Moss was a lot smaller but kind of saw the signs and were like, you know, we need help. um It was still a bit too late, I think, but um it was still, you know, something that stood out to me. And it's also one of the reasons why I joined Moss. I was like, okay, if these people are starting to think about it in this way, then it gives me kind of a good signal in terms of how they think about hiring, um right? So,
00:11:48
Speaker
um So that, I guess, was was a really great sign and and also led me to kind of join join that team. Yeah, when I joined, it was... So was a team of like 25 people in recruiting, which is in completely insane. um And ah it was really hard for me to figure out where to start because um the data we had in our systems were we were using greenhouse obviously of 20 different people using it 20 different ways. All these verticals we had like commercial, international, like all of them were doing their own thing in terms of how they were structured and how they would organize work and
00:12:32
Speaker
thing. So yeah, it took me a while. And honestly, when I joined, I i also, ah my manager wasn't there. So it was kind of like thrown into it, um which sometimes is the perfect way to to start. But yeah, it was super challenging. Also, I had only worked in big corporations. So it's already a learning curve when you go from like a big corporation to startup. But when you join a startup that's kind of like peaking and you're trying to build a roadmap for something that has never existed. No one knows what recruiting operations is in ah in a startup at least at that time. um Yeah, it was it was really tough. I think um I got um a lot of help at the time from also there was a strategy team. It was very focused on um essentially our our commercial positions. We kind of could see that
00:13:26
Speaker
it was breaking. Obviously, it's our it's our revenue engine. So if we don't get that right, like the rest is is gonna is gonna ah be challenging. So there was, I guess, an initial focus to say like, we need to fix commercial. So meaning like our, our sales positions, which are mainly kind of sales development representatives and account executives, um because we're hiring all these people and we're hiring we're onboarding like 10s and 10, 20 people every month, but we're just not seeing them becoming productive. And some of them are are just um starting and then failing and things. So it was the first thing to fix. And when we looked into the interview process, yeah, they were you know there was no intention in terms of like, what are we exactly assessing? What's the hiring decision based on? um What are the skills that this person really needs to have apart from
00:14:23
Speaker
trying to hire people that have that experience before, um which, you know, if you have experience doing sales, it doesn't mean you're any good at it. And it doesn't mean that um you'll be good at it. um You know, again, yeah and if you have the right experience, right for the right for the right idea customer to sell to for the right industry for the right market. And so on you mentioned several points now, which are really interesting. First of all, there was 25 recruiters, a lot of capacity. And then you said productivity. How did you measure productivity? And what does this mean for you? so Back then, there wasn't any measure of productivity. like the The initial problem was the data we couldn't rely on the data that we had in our system. so People were hired like outside of our ATS. We couldn't really track back hires, and then there were all these freelancers that were also kind of being loosely used within this whole ecosystem. so
00:15:16
Speaker
I mean, I couldn't really measure productivity. All I could say is if you kind of looked at it on an agglomerate level, there were obviously um some people that that weren't doing as much as others, but it was it was difficult to make that assessment the only kind of thing that helped there is is you know we did have to visit visit the headcount from what it was initially um and and then you know it was no longer we're hiring 500 people but it's maybe you know half or less and okay so the team that was built to hire 500 people is not going to have to hire
00:15:54
Speaker
you know, a lot less. so So that's kind of what led us to, you know, really have to downsize that team significantly. um and But yeah, it just was impossible to really measure productivity. In case you like my show, please subscribe. I would really appreciate it. Now now it's a difficult story, but we're talking about back then and back then it it was it was really challenging to do. How is it now? So now, I mean, the data that we use is is a lot. um So everything is in our ATS. um you know The hires that we make are all tracked. and We also um can trace it back to like you know the recruiter and who it's credited to. So productivity, I look at there's the absolute numbers, which is like how many hires per recruiter.
00:16:47
Speaker
And you know i don't love that number but it it does give you a bit of a sense check of you know what do you expect someone that's fully ramped up to produce. Obviously it's different across tech and non-tech and things like that but you know if you do have someone in your team that You don't know why they're not making any hires consistently then that's a first signal but what I really care about in the team is more about um the quality metrics so kind of the the pass through rates along um our process you know.
00:17:22
Speaker
the time spent in each stage the candidate experience um that's really what i look at um every month with the rest of the team to say okay well we're a small and nimble team we have to use our time the best we can And so the best way to kind of optimize for that is making sure that you know the candidates we speak with and the candidates we decide to pass through, um they're going to do well at the next stages so that you know in terms of efficiency and time, it it is something that helps us also be more productive um in that way. And also looking at our channels, ah which channels um you know are we get the biggest bang for our buck, you know employee referrals, um maybe for some jobs it is LinkedIn sometimes, um maybe it's you know other other channels um out there, maybe it's sourcing only.
00:18:19
Speaker
In that case, you know, does it even make sense to publish the role? We always publish the role, but, you know, those are kind of the, some of the questions to look at also in terms of productivity.
Structured Recruitment Processes for Efficient Hiring
00:18:30
Speaker
Yeah. And what was the timeline that you could get from, you cannot rely on your data. You don't know how to measure productivity to now work very focused backwards plan based on the capacity you need to fill and what resources you need. If you have enough, you have the right skillset, what is expected from everybody. and then plan accordingly. So what did you actually do and how long um did it take? Yeah, honestly, I think it took um it took a year. i think it you know I don't want to say that um this is how long it takes for everyone, but for us, because
00:19:08
Speaker
we had to you know essentially shift to skill-based hiring. We had to also structure our interviews to be to be structured interviews um and and create these interview guides and then train managers and so on. And then also train the rest of the team on like how to use um our ATS better. um it It took a year for really the team to completely pivot um in terms of uh practices and and data um so that's our personal story i'm sure you know you can make that pivot a lot quicker um but we had a lot of things to fix to help us also get there i think there's the data problem
00:19:52
Speaker
um But it's always kind of hand-in-hand with like how structured and predictable are your interview processes. So I think, you know, you can fix one, but you'll always have to kind of also look at the other things that are part of, you know, how you gather data, um what do you do with that data? You know, if you have a consistent interview process and you have more or less the same stages, it's a lot easier for you to kind of make these working backwards plans because they're similar across most of your roles and you can kind of look at them and compare them across different roles um as well whereas says if you have every single role has its own version of an interview process it's a lot yeah more difficult. yeah
00:20:38
Speaker
especially gets a bigger problem once you get bigger, right? Because suddenly the request is not, hey, we need to open these five roles. Okay, you can talk to everybody, everybody knows each other, communication flows in a way that you um can take it case by case. Once the request is, oh, we actually need 500 more roles, then yeah you need to understand on a macro level or overall, What does it mean in terms of interview capacity? What does it mean in terms of also maybe onboarding capacity? What does it mean in the budget? um How many recruiters need to be allocated where? How many managers do we have? How many recruiters do we have? What's the password rates right to backwards plans? When do we need to kick off which role? How long does it take to kick off? How long does it take it for a candidate to enter the funnel?
00:21:25
Speaker
How long are the candidates in the funnel? And how many do you need to end up with a certain number you need to hire? And when are they starting? And when are they onboarding or onboarding ramp up? So that's in a different way. And if you don't have one process where you say, at least for certain role groups, it's similar and identical, and everybody is trained on the same level, you just will fail. yeah yeah Yeah, so sometimes just the path to like you know recruiting metrics or data is actually one of you know a lot of other things that need to to happen for sure. So um so yeah, it's it's not it's it's not easy and it's not like a quick ah quick fix um for sure. And then you need some checks and balances like also we
00:22:12
Speaker
We have a weekly kind of audit of our data so if there's like stuck that have like candidates that have like fields that are empty or are in a stage for more than like two days then we have these alerts to kind of be like. let's just keep it clean. we have ah um We changed ATSs over time, so we used to call this, and this is ah actually someone that um used to be in my team that kind of coined the term, but we had oh what did it we called it ah Greenhouse Cleanhouse Fridays, and now we call them Tidy Ashby Fridays. so we It makes sense.
00:22:54
Speaker
to clean clean up our ourques and and make and how how did you incentivize your team that they understand that this is valuable because I saw this in many companies being the case like admin or clean up our hour or whatever it is and then it was more a bit the annoying hour you need to spend time and the blaming hour and oh this person missed that so you feel bad right how did you make sure that people like to it and also see the value in it Yeah, that's a great question. I'm i'm pretty confident that when we started doing that, that there was probably the messaging and how we positioned it was was probably not clear enough to to recruiters. I think it's when you start kind of using this data and you kind of discuss it as a team and you look at it every week and you look at it every month. So we have this kind of like
00:23:49
Speaker
weekly cadence of looking at these pass through rates, um high level, you know, we don't spend hours on it, but we kind of look at it every week and we comment on it. And then we have our our review every month to look at them like, I think when the team starts seeing like, okay, well, this is What we do with this data um it's then something that we discuss like there's a you know there's an imperative there to to work off something that's accurate because um you you know there's also a bit of i guess accountability on the line if you have.
00:24:23
Speaker
your pass-through rates there are out there in the open. You want to make sure that they're like really correct. um And you know nothing is more annoying than if you know you're you're a recruiter and I'm i'm still hands-on. And you look at you know last week, you had three intro calls and you're like, no, I had 10. You know? And this is my actual pass-through. I think it's it it helps with um understanding the value of it. um But for sure, it's it's it's not it's not easy. And and you know I think that's one way we it's helped us is is just because we use that data on a weekly and monthly basis.
00:25:02
Speaker
And we use it to make decisions and we use it in our working backwards plans and and we share it with stakeholders. So it's very like visible and it's very transparent. So it's in your interest that like whatever is put out there in the world about you and or your candidates is is is accurate. And so. I think that I try to call this this way of recruiting scientific recruiting because everything is measurable. Everything is based on hypothesis because if you plan and backwards, is not it's nothing more than a hypothesis of what you most likely need to deliver to fill the need, right? yeah um And then you also need to underlie it with data and you also need to be fundamentally not just relying on past data, but you're also on the way of doing it.
Quality of Hire and Scientific Recruiting
00:25:43
Speaker
gather data and iterate the hypothesis that it's getting more mostly realistic, right? So this is what I call scientific recruiting and what I also tried to do. um But I think that's just one way to look at it. The other way to look at it, okay, the outcome ultimately needs to be valuable for the business. And this could be measured in the quality of hire. And we just had a bit of a um discussion around it previously. But now maybe we talk about um the quality of hire, how you measure it, how you think you measure it, and what's the difficulty in doing so because it's not easy. Yeah, quality of hire is tough. and um i When I was at Amazon, there was a whole like team of data scientists and researchers working on this. And they still when I left, which was two yoga two years ago, they hadn't figured it out.
00:26:29
Speaker
um And that was one way to go about it, which was like very scientific. They were kind of trying to consolidate um you know objective data, which for this case it was developers, so they were looking at like guess the quality of the code that they submit and they were trying to consolidate that with like a manager evaluation and like a 360 and things like that. And so I don't know where where that went. um But you know, it's just to say that like, I don't think anyone has fixed this yet. And, and, and big companies are um big companies are no exception, in terms of quality of hire. So
00:27:16
Speaker
and it's so And at Moss, we haven't like figured it out yet like to be very transparent. It's something that's kind of come up as ah one of our objectives this year is is to come up with some sort of indication of quality of hire. And it's coming up so much more now. I just went to an event a few days ago where um you know this was kind of mentioned as like this one metric that has replaced maybe, you know I don't know, time to hire used to be a big one a few a year or two back because it was all about speed at least at moss and it was about like how can we get you know how can we be quick how can we um you know have have the best candidate experience
00:27:59
Speaker
And now it's a lot about quality of hire. So, okay, you're hiring these people. How do I know that the hiring decision that I'm making now is better than it was a year ago? And that's the question that I get from my my leadership um is, you know, we moved to scale-based hiring. um We've implemented all these structured interviewing practices. tell us now, is it making our hiring decisions better? um And, you know, it's hard to put a number on that or like, you know, a hard metric to say, well, yes, the quality is is higher. And so that's, I think, at least for for me, is where there's the context of this quality of hire kind of imperative now to say like, let's start measuring it.
00:28:47
Speaker
um I love that we're going into quality of hiring. We're not sticking to just the recruiting metrics. um So I love that we're talking about like hiring people that can be successful, hiring people that bring something to the organization. um and not just fixated on on our recruiting processes. Same with attrition, by the way. like It's not to say that it should always be attached to recruiting and recruiting is accountable, but we should be always thinking about like the impact we have as a TA team.
00:29:20
Speaker
um in terms of who we bring in and how they're successful and and so on. In case you have any feedback or anything you want to share with me, please send me an email on thomas at peoplewise.com or hit me up on LinkedIn. And in case you really enjoyed the show, please subscribe. I would really appreciate it. And also I think ah big a big a big um aspect are the managers, right? Because they ultimately make the hiring decision and they then also lead the people. And I think that's an aspect which should be way more holistically considered in the whole employee journey, independent from just recruiting only, but also then the overall lifecycle of an employee.
00:30:00
Speaker
And um I think this really needs to be intertwined.
Role of Managers in Holistic Employee Management
00:30:03
Speaker
And um companies that have good management, um I think, do way better in recruitment, um if they also have, of course, a recruiting culture and so on. But this is usually part of managers job to recruit and to hire, right, and to to get the best people and then to also really find a way on how to find them and retain them. um Ultimately, that they have a certain value for the overall company and this is hard, it's tough. And I think if if it's not holistically going well, um then it's a problem and you cannot blame recruitment for a bad hire, for instance. Of course, it should be responsibility there, but it should not be blaming.
00:30:45
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, for sure. We're we're there to, you know, to to guide them towards the best outcome and bring in best practices, but there's shared accountability for sure. And so um I do also, I don't like also the term of like quality of hire because it's, you know, It's not just about hiring, right? It's about like how this person was onboarded. Also, how did the hiring manager get to this hiring decision? So I don't love the term either because it's it's the quality of the hire versus, I guess, the quality of um not just hiring, but you know the onboarding and you know the scope of the role and the manager involvement and so on. so And the constraints you have. Yeah, exactly as well. yeah
00:31:35
Speaker
um so um So where we are starting, and this is still kind of very early days, but um we we first want to figure out like what What is quality for MOS? What is a quality hire? Is it someone that you know does the job better than people that are in that role? Or is it someone that adds has skills that no one has in the organization? Or is it someone that brings something that we don't have in terms of, I don't know.
00:32:09
Speaker
but perspective or current culture or whatever. So I guess it's it's we have to start with that and then we also have to start with you know ah what is ah quality like what is quality um in you know our product manager role versus like an SDR, it's not the same thing. And so it's quite hard to kind of find a sweet spot between, I guess, a simple way of assessing quality of hire, but also one that has the nuances of of ah set as an SDR versus a product manager. So that's what we're we're trying to figure out now. We also, um to your point around like people managers,
00:32:52
Speaker
um We also know that if we send them a survey now and ask them like, are you happy with your hire? We're not going to get anything that's insightful. So, you know, how do we how do we get this data? And then what do we do with it um is also a big part of where we are now. It's just like, we're in this discovery phase and scoping it out because there's so many questions that you kind of need to get a bit of clarity before you go on to the open and ask managers or or send them a survey about quality of hire. I know there's some tools out there that kind of offer that function, but for us, it just wouldn't work to just send this survey. ah Managers need a bit of education on it.
00:33:37
Speaker
um And we need also to learn a bit better like how they would assess this quality. And it needs certain validation in my opinion, right? So yeah if you would not validate what what's there, because I think of it in in three attributes. um One should be the overall strategic contribution to the company. um It doesn't have to be always strategic. It can also be tactical or operationally, but I think it just needs to have some company layer. Then second, I think it needs to have a cultural layer in terms of, um is it value adding for the team dynamics? um Does it fit as well? And is it not something toxic? And the third aspect is something functional, right?
00:34:22
Speaker
Do the people also learn from it and or are they functionally doing many things so good that overall there's positive impact on the company's success? And then the questions was how to measure it, right? And again, as you said in product or sales or tech or general admin roles or customer service, role it's all different. I think you need to have several quality metrics for different functions and also for different company phases. And then it will just changes and it is dynamic. And the problem with it is, it's dynamic, but it also takes so much time to measure it. So what is the right model for your executives case at the moment? And what do you believe in, right? Because I think it's also a question of belief.
00:35:06
Speaker
And then the managers, the overall business, the talent acquisition team, the business partners, whoever is involved, I think everybody needs to be validated as well against each other for the rating, if it's really making sense. Because if you get your ah in your performance review in your rating, um a key metric to say, hey, you are measured by the quality of hire. And of course, no manager will, even if it's the case, say, oh, I did a not call it the hire because maybe it impacts your performance and your pay. but Yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure. and the It's so true that part around like beliefs, because we started to have these like exploratory conversations about like, what do you think it takes um to be, you know, a highly performing and highly valued team member in in the company. And when you have these conversations, you realize the like underlying belief system of um the leaders and the hiring managers, because yes, there's
00:36:03
Speaker
the performance per se, in some cases it's quite um it can be quite straightforward to measure if you know someone is like generating revenue, then you know that's and a part of the performance. But then there's the whole underlying belief about like what's the quality of hire? Is it someone that you know works a lot um and doesn't care about the hours? Or is it actually someone that you know, ah brings, um you know, bring something to the team, you know, can lift the team with their, um with their demeanor, or they're very good at like coaching others. And so when you have start having these conversation, you kind of realize, okay, there's this whole other part of like, hat, what you believe is like a quality hire, which is very different across um even, you know, leaders in the same company. um And so that's quite
00:36:53
Speaker
Also, that's an extra challenge. And in those beliefs, sometimes you'll find some biases that you also have to address, you know. um so So, yeah, and its it's hard. It's tough. um And, you know, I'm not here to say we found a a solution, um but I know that it's it's a common challenge with this quality of hire. Let's do it like this. Once you have a solution, we do another podcast talking just about how you figured it out. Okay. yeah Yeah, let's do that. I'll tell you like how it's going and like what are what are the challenges and what's working well, what what isn't for sure. yeah Yeah, in a couple of months, ah we can do that. Cool. see that Thank you. We are already at the end. I really enjoyed the conversation. Very insightful, a lot of stories, a lot of insights. I really appreciate your time and have a great weekend. Awesome. Thanks, Thomas. See you. Bye.
00:37:55
Speaker
you