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#120 - Daniel Hanlon | From Agency Recruitment to Internal Recruitment
25 Plays3 days ago
After 3.5 years of agency experience specialising in graduate sales recruitment within Fast Moving Consumer Goods, Dan transitioned to internal recruitment at Attensi. Over the past four years, he has been dedicated to attracting top talent across Attensi’s UK, Oslo, and Boston offices. Working alongside the brilliant Talent team, Dan has played a key role in establishing best practice within the function and successfully doubling the company’s headcount.
Shownotes
00:00 - Intro & Context
06:09 - Understanding the Differences in Recruitment Roles
08:53 - The Challenges of Internal Recruitment
15:01 - Strategies for Successful Recruitment
Links
Guest Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/danielhanlon1/
Yeliz Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/yeliz-castillo/
Yeliz e-mail: yeliz.castillo@pplwise.com
pplwise: https://pplwise.com/
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Transcript
Introduction to Podcast and Guest
00:00:00
Speaker
Today's guest, Daniel Hanlon.
00:00:07
Speaker
Hi, Dan. So nice to have you here today. Thank you for having me, Liz. Great speak again. Yeah, of course. ah Yeah, today's topic is actually, i think, a very special one because it's something that I have experienced as well and I'm really excited about it.
Significance of Transitioning from Agency to Internal Recruitment
00:00:27
Speaker
So we will be talking about... going from an agency recruiter or like from the agency recruitment world into the internal talent world.
00:00:39
Speaker
And yeah, first of all, I would love to know why this is an important topic for you. Yeah, of course. And yeah, definitely one that I'm very excited to speak about today. It's... ah I think it's such an important topic for me because I feel like it's been key or one of the key elements of why I've been able to experience success in my current role.
00:01:03
Speaker
Also, when I was in agency, there was almost this kind of worry about moving in house because it was looked at like, oh may If you can't hack agency recruitment, then you move in-house. And I think definitely over the last kind of couple of years or so, there's been a significant change in the market in that.
Comparing Agency and Internal Recruitment Roles
00:01:21
Speaker
So ah really want to help show people that maybe are in agency or have agency experience just how much they can use that to really help them be the best that they can be in their roles.
00:01:33
Speaker
Yeah, totally. So what you say is like the difference between and agency recruiter and an internal recruiter? Yeah, really good question. Well, at the basic level for agency, you're working with a number of different clients to be able to file fill you know a number of different roles unless you're a specialist in ah a specific area.
00:01:55
Speaker
um With internal recruitment, you're working for one business and you might even become more broad in terms of the roles that you recruit for or perhaps even more specialized. It depends on the size of the talent acquisition function and that you would be going into and the size of the company as well. but Um, you know, you in agency, you build strong relationships with your clients and you will, uh, you know, hopefully work with them a number of times, but you're not actually in the business. Whereas internally you're recruiting for people that you're going to be working with, uh, or at least next to on a ah daily basis and and kind of building the company from the inside out.
00:02:36
Speaker
Yeah. It's very interesting. Like I, I, and this is maybe my narrative, right. But I do feel like if you start off as an agency recruiter, Once you've done that, you can work pretty much in any kind of environment, right?
KPIs and Challenges in Recruitment Transitions
00:02:54
Speaker
When it comes to challenge. And I think this is like a stigma that's not just my opinion, but it really comes from the experience itself, but then also, I guess, from the pace, ah right?
00:03:07
Speaker
And I'm not saying there is no pressure or there is no... and like, yeah, no no fast pace in in internal recruitment. But what's your take on the difference when it comes to KPIs or the pressure generally?
00:03:24
Speaker
Yeah, and I think, you know, a lot of things are the pressures that you put on yourselves. If you're in ah agency recruitment or have come from that, you're typically going to be quite an ambitious individual that likes to exceed targets because you've always had targets put in front of you.
00:03:40
Speaker
and And I think that
00:03:44
Speaker
Vice versa, the the pressures are very different because you you think about ah the KPIs that you have in agency hiring, it's gonna be a lot about ah you know how many people are getting to to meet with the clients, how many people that you're placing and and the revenue that you're bringing in from that. you know I knew my quarterly target and I had a rough idea of how much I cost the business each year. So yeah you kind of know what you need to do to keep yourself in that seat and to be able to overperform.
00:04:11
Speaker
Whereas yeah on the the internal side of things, It's not revenue focused. You might be bringing on people who will generate revenue
Transitioning Skills and Challenges
00:04:20
Speaker
for the business. So it inherently more performance focused where the best metric that you can have is that someone's going to have been there for a long time or continue to be at the company for a long time and be performing.
00:04:33
Speaker
you know the The conversations that you have with a hiring manager where they say, oh yeah, so-and-so is getting on brilliantly. you know is inherently that uh money in the pocket that you would have in or money in the business's pocket that you would have had in an agency as well so um different targets same pressures i'm very lucky i don't get put under much pressure and in in well in either of the roles that i've i've had but yeah i'd so i'd say it's pretty much down to you on how much pressure you put on yourself uh give or take the situation that you're in obviously like
00:05:05
Speaker
yeah And would you say the transformation from and agency recruiter to interim is easier or the other way around based on the difference? Well, I can only, i guess, comment from going agency to internal recruiter.
00:05:24
Speaker
But I would say I i think it would be if I was to forget all my agency experience and and then go into an agency, I think the The foundations that I learned in agency have made it a lot easier to transition into an internal recruitment role.
00:05:39
Speaker
um The other way around may be slightly more difficult because of the even faster paced nature of the you know agency recruitment where you're having to learn a number of different clients needs at all times and be able to inherently sell that to candidates in a great way so that they're invested
Strategies in Volume vs Quality Hiring
00:06:02
Speaker
in it. And yeah you have to know a lot of different roles in quite a lot of detail in itself. And I think doing it the other way around where you're
00:06:11
Speaker
you know all of that to then come into ah internal recruitment where you've only got one company that you need to learn the sale for. And inherently, yeah if you're enjoying yourself there, the sale comes naturally because it's the place that you're working and you want it to be the place where other people want to work as well.
00:06:28
Speaker
um And then you learn the roles. So there's half as much in terms of role versus company split to learn in that sense. Yeah, for sure. I remember when I transitioned from, you know obviously we we like the environment I'm working in right now is I'm going into internal companies, but I'm you know from third party provider.
00:06:52
Speaker
I go and stay there for a couple of months and then change again. So I have been an interim recruiter for two years now, but in different environments. And yeah what I do pick up is from the experience in different environments as well, that the biggest advantage I think I had with transitioning to that and the experience as an agency recruiter was volume hiring.
00:07:16
Speaker
think it really does help to pick up the pace and, you know, provide the numbers in a short period of time on a higher volume. That volume is great. and But then also at the same time, i think quality wise, and this is obviously not not something that I'm generalizing here now, but I do think quality wise, when you go into an internal role, the quality of the work you do is so different from a relationship perspective, right? Because you build different type of relationships because those are long term.
00:07:54
Speaker
And then also that the the pre-work to get to a new role or and opening and, you know, everything around it is more thought through than I would say in an agency world. Because again, there is very fast pace.
00:08:11
Speaker
You get the details that you get. Sometimes you get the job descriptions from the client. Sometimes you have to create them yourself. So, you know, it's way more different. What's your take on um those kind of differences in terms of you know the the different types of hiring whether that's volume or qualitative kind of um yeah it's interesting because one of the main differences we always talk about here is the facts of uh in agency know you can be working on a number of different roles uh if you've got five or six roles on you realistically know okay i've got my top three that i will you know almost definitely fill uh and i can focus on those and the others
00:08:51
Speaker
I can, you know, hopefully find a candidate for, but then if I don't, I don't, you know, somebody else is going to fill that role and it will go. In internal recruitment, nobody else takes that role off your hands. You know, the only way that role is going is if the the business decides to to put it on pause or, you know, you fill it
Role Definition and Strategic Involvement in Internal Recruitment
00:09:08
Speaker
internally. So,
00:09:10
Speaker
I'd say, you know, that is where the, as you say, the the quality and relationship building piece really comes in because you can, you know, go through ah tough times with hiring managers where it's just a tough market out there and you can't find the right person. You know, I've, I've recruited for roles that have taken six to nine months to recruit for, and they're always an urgent business need. And, you know, doing all I can to try and find that person. The hiring manager is doing all they can to to help me find that person.
00:09:41
Speaker
But when you form that great, high quality relationship with that hiring manager, it is a team effort and you're able to work together to do that. So, know, I think Volume could be the same across agency and ah you know internal hiring. But as you say, it is very much different in terms of the process of how you get there, the the thinking that goes behind it before the role goes live, and the the resources you have to to utilize to find that right person as well.
00:10:13
Speaker
Yeah, for sure. It's so interesting, right? like it I remember when I first got into the and agency world, obviously, you didn't like I didn't know anything else.
00:10:24
Speaker
So to me, the way of working was so normal, right? Like numbers driven, delivering the KPIs or a hitting the kps or the numbers and then it would go from month to month and you would always like review the whole month and you know like the the way of working was completely different then when i'd like moved into internal recruitment i felt like everything was a bit slower and then we you know took way more time to define the role or define the profile and it went into more almost like a
00:10:56
Speaker
consultative side as well. Obviously you also do that in an agency and ideally you would, you know, consult your client and help and make sure that, you know, you find the right profile. But I feel like you have way more input.
00:11:09
Speaker
Well, ideally you would have way more input in an internal world. How is your experience been with that? Do you feel that is the truth that you also have way more Yeah.
00:11:22
Speaker
Yeah. Right? right Yeah, 100%. And I completely agree with you. I think the the best agency recruiters, you know, they're called recruitment consultants for a reason. People just forget the consultant fit. You know, you are actually there to help advise because you should have some expertise ah in that industry to be able to help the client find that person or adjust what they need to be able to find the person that's going to be able to do the job for them.
00:11:49
Speaker
i'm But yeah, I think you in-house, you're in those conversations right from the briefing call, right through to you know the hopefully the role being filled in itself and everywhere in between. So the best internal recruiters are also, i like to call it a thought partner with the hiring manager.
Enriching Internal Recruiting with Agency Experience
00:12:08
Speaker
They're able to to kind of be on a equal footing with them and say okay well i know this is the exact profile that we're looking for but i've actually spoken to this candidate who i think takes a lot of different boxes to what you're looking for and i really think it's worth you seeing them and you know you build great trust with that, you build a great feedback loop and it allows you to be able to kind of be vulnerable in a way of like, I'm putting myself on the line for a candidate that yeah you might not have seen if it's not for me saying you should see this person.
00:12:42
Speaker
And even if it doesn't go as well as you would hope, you learn together as a kind of hiring group. And that's what That's what I think is really key and and does help. And it's maybe different to the agency side to help you be able to fill more roles with more high quality candidates internally.
00:13:01
Speaker
Yeah, totally agree. So what would you say yeah are the biggest challenges then from going into and agency recruiter into the interim world?
00:13:14
Speaker
Yeah, it's a really good question. I think touching back on what I said earlier around the roles don't go away. ah you know, it, yeah You're not supposed to kind of let roles go away in an agency either.
00:13:31
Speaker
But, you know, and I would challenge any agency recruiter to say whether they had, you know, done that exact same thing. good That, of course.
00:13:41
Speaker
Team growth as well, right? Like there is so much happening and it's so easy. and Like i used to have a team, sorry, I'm i'm cutting off your number. yes and And, you know, when we were growing, which happened obviously quite often or like quick as well, that you wouldn't start sharing roles. And then and if there's someone who has an expertise, it's very easy to then just be like, okay, you can take on this one and I and do this or whatever. So I think that's, I mean, whoever says and and the opposite thing would not be so close to the truth here.
00:14:11
Speaker
I agree. And I would probably argue they don't have enough roles on for that to be, yeah if that is the case. But... be there know what you end up having it internally as a challenge is the fact that this role is going to be and it needs to be filled and uh you can feel almost almost like you're banging your head against the wall even with the the best hiring managers in the world because sometimes luck is not on your side you know we all know luck is involved in recruitment uh you could be in a very candidate driven market which you know is also working against you but i think
00:14:45
Speaker
I don't know, people, i try and be as optimistic as possible. I always think this role is going to be filled. You know, it's it's it's not going to be here forever. We're not going to be talking in two years time about this role that's been going on for three years.
00:14:59
Speaker
It will get filled. You just have to bear with the process and make sure you're doing all of the right things to be able to overcome that challenge. So what would be the top three tips that you could give someone if a hiring position or like position hiring doesn't go too well?
00:15:17
Speaker
Yeah, and I would say the first and and most important thing would be to look at the process in itself, you know, look at internally at yourself as a talent acquisition manager in terms of, uh, you know, who you've been speaking to and the the stats that are going along with that process. So, you know, we have started to track a lot of our recruitment funnel.
00:15:38
Speaker
So how many people ah coming through in terms of applications or sourcing, you know, how many people are getting through to a screening stage with me and then going through to a first stage with a hiring manager and You know, if I'm seeing a lot of discrepancy with loads of people, me sending loads of people to the first stage with the hiring manager and then not getting through to the next case stage, for instance, then there's something there that could be me misunderstanding in the brief and not sending through the right person or, ah you know, me not understanding the person that we actually need or the hiring manager maybe be
00:16:19
Speaker
their role requirements don't quite meet the needs of the people that are actually out there in the market. definitely first and foremost, look internally and and then have a conversation with the hiring manager. you know They're going through that process with you.
00:16:35
Speaker
They are speaking to everyone that you've been speaking to and um'm yeah understand from them what they're seeing and and why we don't feel like we found the right person.
00:16:46
Speaker
you know I've had processes where there's been good people that have gone through, ah but haven't quite made it the whole way through the process. And I've had a chat with a hiring manager and they say, well, look, we have the luxury in this case where we're not really settling for this person being 80% right.
00:17:04
Speaker
They need to be 99% right. yeah And you know, that can kind of ease things for you. It does make it harder to find that person, but also you can be assured that you're finding the quality candidates, but it's just going to take that little bit extra to get the the right person through.
Strategies for Tackling Challenging Roles
00:17:19
Speaker
um And then finally, guess the last point would be don't wait for this to happen. You know, as soon as a role comes on, you'll kind of know what your hard to fill roles are. And I think you should even do this with your easier roles to fill because they can always turn into hard roles if market changes or, you know, things with the company change. So,
00:17:43
Speaker
get ahead of it. and And really, know, I have weekly catch ups with my hiring managers and some weeks the catch up is there's nothing new to update you on. ah We know where we're at.
00:17:54
Speaker
Let's keep going from there. But having those constant check ins, both in terms of the numbers that you're hitting and also just a status update ensures that you're ahead of any hardships. And when they do come up, you've got that open line of communication with a hiring manager to be able to tackle that very quickly.
00:18:11
Speaker
Yeah. If I may add a couple of things as well, I think, um, I have that also where I have roles, actually, I think the most challenging roles I had really in, in, since I'm in the internal world. Um, and, uh,
00:18:28
Speaker
i i What I find what really helps is also starting the role by sourcing with the hiring managers together, like really taking an hour or so in the very beginning to take the time and also so obviously consult and and explain to the hiring managers that this is really useful, this one hour, and really go through profiles together so they see and get a feel for how the market is.
00:18:52
Speaker
And then also for you to kind of understand better what we're really looking for. Because honestly, for like 90% of the time, only when you start talking to people is when you and the hiring team really understands what they're actually looking for, right?
00:19:07
Speaker
Because sometimes you have an idea and you think, yeah, this this and this and this one is what I want. Obviously, unicorn, you know, him and and and all the the the perfect kind and like and attributes and and skills and experiences.
00:19:22
Speaker
And then obviously, you know, you... you you barely find those all in one person so then it's really about okay kid then kind of negotiating okay what's really a must-have and what's the nice to have and so I think those things really happen when you do spend like maybe an hour or so in the beginning to source together and you know go through the profiles and really really get the feedback it's really important to to have this thorough feedback also from the hiring team and then Next thing is also, i think that the, I call it frames of flexibility.
00:19:55
Speaker
So what do we put in our frame? What is really flexible if we realize, hey, we need someone um on site, but then are we flexible in terms of hours? Are we flexible in in terms of, I don't know, commute or the days or, you know, those kinds of things that are really important in the market.
00:20:13
Speaker
I think, you know, to really decide, okay, are we flexible with the c salary? Are we flexible with the them conditions for the role? And so on I think that's very, very important as well.
00:20:24
Speaker
And what I also do find um what helps as well is, as you said, kind of reviewing the full process and really trying things out.
00:20:36
Speaker
i I don't think that yeah one process or all roles is the right way of doing things. Sometimes, you know, you need maybe more input from stakeholders when you want to fill a role. Sometimes you want to, i don't know, and put a case study in or sometimes you want to take one out. You know, i think it's really about constantly reviewing the processes and the procedures you have just to make sure that you really,
00:21:04
Speaker
um have the needs for the role and the profile that you're looking for rather than generalizing everything. Right. um So, yeah, I think if, if, if you have that, and also this is also something as an external recruiter that, you know, you should be able to provide or consult companies on because it's, it's such different market now, I think compared to,
00:21:31
Speaker
how it was a couple of years ago where it was a way more employer driven market whereas most sectors or kind of roles I would say it's definitely a candidate driven market so yeah I think those are really the way forward yeah I agree I think like you know just to to add to that having if we, you mentioned on the agency side, that's what you should be doing too, a hundred percent.
Collaboration Between Internal Recruiters and Agencies
00:22:01
Speaker
And on the internal, internal side, knowing that you have the luxury to be able to do that is the important part. And I think that's where the agency experience really helps is because obviously you want a lot of touch points with your client. You don't want to be annoying, but you know, if they if they feel like you're working towards finding the right profile and and you're kind of keeping them updated on that journey then, ah and they're a part of that,
00:22:26
Speaker
then you're going to form that great relationship. And I really feel like that is something that I brought there from agency experience, gave me the confidence to be able to do that and implement it very quickly ah with my hiring managers in the Tennessee.
00:22:40
Speaker
Yeah. You know, in the very beginning, just at the end, I would like to add this as well. I always thought when I was on the agency side, I sometimes wondered, like, obviously I never knew the the internal side. So i was like, it's interesting. Like they have an internal team, but they still need so much support from an agency. Yeah.
00:22:59
Speaker
being on the other side, i totally get why, because as an internal recruiter, you're so involved in so many stakeholder conversations, you know, procedural things that need to be changed or discussed or debriefs and ah and all sorts that sourcing sometimes is really tricky, you know, and and having the time. So I feel really the combination of both is like the best solution, especially when you have a lot going on and um you know and and you should really take on the consultation of an external recruiter as much as you as an internal recruiter can provide.
00:23:34
Speaker
So I feel that teamwork can really make wonders. Like I've seen it now being on both sides, ah what a difference it makes. which Yeah. And there's definitely a common misconception, at least so from my perspective, that ah internal recruiters hate agencies.
00:23:52
Speaker
yeah I love when I get to work with an agency because you know, the reason why we're going to an agency is either that it's a specialist role that I've never recruited for and, and have don't have the the current knowledge to be able to recruit for that.
00:24:09
Speaker
Uh, so I need support on it or it's a, it's a resource thing. It's time. Uh, and I, as I said, the roles don't go away. So, you know, they need to be filled and there's no point putting the business in a tough spot out of pride. Um, um,
00:24:24
Speaker
And I always want agencies to fill the role as quickly as possible because it just gets it off your
Final Advice for Transitioning Recruiters
00:24:29
Speaker
plate. And obviously being on the other side of it, it's great for an agency too to be able to do that. Totally. Time is money, right?
00:24:38
Speaker
ah Oh yeah, totally with you. So Dan, my last question would be, what's your top tip for someone who wants to go from an agency recruiter into an internal manager?
00:24:54
Speaker
recruitment. Yeah. I would say...
00:25:00
Speaker
treat your internal recruitment role like an agency role um and obviously there's a lot of things that you're going to have to adapt with that you know you're you're not going to be recruiting for many different clients but you can view your uh individual hiring managers as different clients themselves because each of them is going to want different things have different requirements and be able to um Yeah, you have to work with them in a slightly different way. and But also that ability to be able to really learn a company and sell a company and show your investment in that too.
00:25:35
Speaker
I think when you can talk to a potential ah you know candidate or talk to a candidate about the company you're working with, with a lot of passion and excitement,
00:25:46
Speaker
it really is contagious and it and it helps draw people into that company itself so um yeah don't be afraid to to use your agency skills if you've got great training it's going to really help you and the confidence that you've had from being that consultant and being able to really back a candidate that is slightly different but you know could be a really good fit that will be key when you're working with hiring managers as well so yeah use your agency experience
00:26:20
Speaker
For sure. Totally agree. I think and become a hybrid from both. And it's funny that you say that actually with the client, because in the very beginning, I remember when I would say, ah you know, like when I switched jobs, I would tell my husband, I'm like, oh, I have to, i have a meeting with my client. And he's like, hey, I thought you don't work with clients anymore. like, sorry, I mean, the hiring managers.
00:26:43
Speaker
Yeah. So it's funny that you say that. I just remembered I used to do that all the time because it does take a difference. But you're absolutely right. I think you do have to and you know view it just with the same sensitivity of and this is my client. This is my stakeholder.
00:27:00
Speaker
This is who I'm dealing with. I also see from an HR perspective, right? I think for HR, your customers are the employees. right for us like it doesn't matter whether you work in an agency recruitment i'm sorry in a recruitment agency or if you work in an internal team your customers are the hiring teams whether external internal so yeah totally agree great so much dan it was lovely talking to you way likewise yeah all the best to you thank you thanks liz
00:27:37
Speaker
Bye.