Transcript
Speaker: Hi, Navid. I'm really happy that we can do this episode. Andreas Schmitz connected us and we will talk about a few interesting topics today. How you became um self-employed and are a very successful consultant and coach now um after a corporate career and also um um more insights about um your book and also um the transition. So I'm really looking forward to this. You're sitting in in the Emirates, I guess, right?
Speaker: um But maybe we start with a quick introduction about yourself. For sure, for sure. First off, thank you, Thomas, for welcoming me to your show. It's a real honor and pleasure to be part of the podcast.
Speaker: And yes, our good old friend, Andrea Schmitz, had me as a guest on his show. And he said, hey, I think you and Thomas should connect and speak. So I, ah yeah, how do I introduce myself? I'm a former HR executive.
Speaker: I spent 26 years of my wonderful life working for some of the world's most admired companies. And I did that at the country, at the regional, at the global level.
Speaker: And it was in the year 22 when my wonderful book launched. And ah to my surprise, and I think it's fair to say also to my publisher's surprise, it became a number one new release release on Amazon on its first day of being launched.
Speaker: And ah it became a bestseller in the US, became a bestseller in Germany, Switzerland, UK, and by now it's an its international bestseller. And just a fun fact, how How did you do that?
Speaker: Yeah, well, that's a long story. Friday, five weeks ago, my book was on the number one rank on Amazon. Not once, not twice, but three times.
Speaker: So this is three years and five months after the original launch. So it's Mastering Executive Transitions. Is it this book, right? Correct. Yes. Yes. Why did you write it? What was the idea behind it So I always felt and I still believe that every single person has at least one book inside them. So that's a belief that I've held for a long time.
Speaker: um So it wasn't really a new idea that I wanted to write a book. I just wasn't too sure if I'm ready for writing a book. And it took me seven years, which clearly shows that I wasn't entirely ready.
Speaker: But i'm I'm glad I did it because i took my time with the book And I really went deep on the research side and I went really heavy on practical implementation side of the same. So I really wanted to create a book that is here to stay. And I'm really, really happy to see that touching wood by all standards and and and rankings and KPIs, it seems to be doing exceptionally well.
Speaker: And what is the... um the the main, I would say, um content. So um who is it for and what what can you get out of it? Sure. So the book is written for three different audiences.
Speaker: ah So any one of these audiences would actually benefit from reading my book and and thinking about their practical implementation side of it. The first one is executive leaders, you know, of which supported many in my HR roles over the 20 years, but I obviously was an executive leader myself. so So that's kind of the first leadership and audience for the book.
Speaker: The second one is HR leaders and or talent directors, someone who is in charge of the transition process in a larger organization.
Speaker: And the third audience are coaches like myself, who want to go all in to have the latest research, the latest knowledge, and the latest applicable tools to their coaching transition practice.
Speaker: So those are kind of the three audiences that would benefit from reading my book. Nice. And you were 26 years in the corporate world and you also had a um a great career trajectory there, right? So I believe that you have been in a very great um position. and You were settled, good salary, and then you quit and start um by yourself.
Speaker: Why? Yeah, that's a good question that my ah my wife asked me at the time as well. like Are you really sure? Which was her way to say you are completely out of your mind.
Speaker: well Well, a few reasons. One is I really felt that I probably have jumped ship after 25 years. I feel 25 years is a long time to give to anything unless it's your marriage or your child.
Speaker: So 20 quarter of a century, he just feels like a good period of time to say goodbye to something. um But we had the pandemic, you know that kind of delayed my plans for two years.
Speaker: um That's the first thing. The second thing is, you know at some point, we we all have our vision boards. We all have our, you know what? One day, i would love to do this and I would love to do that.
Speaker: And I really saw with my own parents, who both have passed away by now, how quickly you start to deteriorate um at the at a high age and and you just don't see that coming, right?
Speaker: um So that was the second thing in the back of my mind. But I think that the strongest push, or I would like to say pull, was the publishing of my book. Thomas, I mean, I had random people sending me a LinkedIn message to say, hey, we got our leadership conference coming up on this date.
Speaker: Can you come and do a speech for our top leaders? I had people like yourself. um This is the 42nd podcast I've been invited to speak as a guest in the 39 months since the book has launched. So my my run rate is more than one a month.
Speaker: um to say, hey, can you come on my show? And I would love to you know connect you with my audience. And I just realized that having a full-time executive role is not going to allow me to do these things.
Speaker: um And then the the last part of it was, I'd been coaching on the side for about seven and a half years. So I've been a coach now for 11 years. And I had a wait list of about a year.
Speaker: So let's say if you wanted to work with me as your coach, I would have to kindly ask you to be patient for about 12 months until I could sign you up. Because as I said, had my day job and that was a full-on role. I mean, in my last role, I was in um charge of HR for their finance function globally at Vodafone.
Speaker: That included supporting, from an HR point of view, 27,000 employees in 24 countries. right And so it was not like, oh, well, I come in at nine and I finish my job at five and all is fine.
Speaker: It was a full on role. And so that means that I could only coach three leaders at the time. And so... When the book launched and I had all this love and interest and excitement coming away my way, I thought to myself, if not now, when?
Speaker: And it just felt the right time with everything else that I had broadly planned in the background to jump ship and do this more full time and be serious about, you know, doing what I love doing on the side now full time.
Speaker: So, um I hear two things. at At some point, realization that time is limited. And second also, um opportunity.
Speaker: um But still... You need to make the decision and go for it because I bet that you did not make more money with your book than with your corporate salary because I think that just takes time to build that up. um And second, what I see is that you started already 11 years ago when you said coaching um and you had a waitlist there, right? And I think what a lot of executives say at some point when I do all my executive dinners and so on, that They are not sure about the next step. Do they want to do it again? Do they want to be all involved with the dynamics what a corporate executive role springs with it? There are politics, there are strategies, tactics, allies. you you You not just need to do your job.
Speaker: Don't you want you to spend your time differently maybe at some point, right? So this is, I think, what a lot of people realize. um And maybe also at some point they they made some money that and they don't need more to have a better life, for instance, right? So then these questions come.
Speaker: But of course, you still need money and you still need an income. So how do you really... um be tactical and strategic about it. So um maybe let's go back 11 years before kicking it off.
Speaker: What was your realization or what what was your trigger in just saying, hey, I do something on top of it, um on on top of my corporate job. And I bet that you were already busy with your full-time job.
Speaker: Yes. Yes. As a matter of fact, I waited for two years. So first thing, I was always intrigued by the outcomes of transformational coaching. Really, what can a great coach achieve with a great client over a relatively short period of time? If you think of it, six or 12 months is really not that long.
Speaker: Having 10 or 20 sessions is all there is that you get as a coach in ah in a six or 12 on-site period. but But then if the results are phenomenal, that was always my intrigue. That was always my fascination with what actually happens in the room.
Speaker: I mean, I was the HR leader and this is a true story. We had a leader that had nominated someone in his department, he was the sales director at the time, to become his successor. This was the succession management planning meeting as ah as an executive committee team.
Speaker: and Thomas, the minute he spoke out the name of the gentleman, hell broke out in that room because essentially half of the room that had an opinion on that gentleman that he was nominating as his own successor had a strong vote against that individual.
Speaker: And so, you know, ah will I won't share those words with you, but like over my dead body or or the equivalent of that. Now, I had to step in to say, look, nobody is questioning the actual performance of that individual, right?
Speaker: And nobody was because he was a strong, the strongest sales person in the entire company. Would you be happy if I got him to work with someone to help with his leadership side of his performance?
Speaker: Sure. assuming nothing is going to change anyway. Anyhow, 12 months later, and I kid you not, Thomas, I'm sitting in the same room. With two exceptions, everyone else was the same participants as the year prior.
Speaker: That guy was a little nervous to share again the same name because he saw like guns being pulled out and shooting him. And when he did that, two of the gentlemen who said a year ago over my dead body, were actually questioning whether that role is good enough for someone like that, or whether we should think something bigger outside of our time in country here.
Speaker: So, and you tell me what happened in the room with that coach and I was not the coach, right? What happened in the room between a leader and a coach over 20 sessions that really transformed his leadership?
Speaker: Now, that was my intrigue and that's why I wanted to become a coach, not necessarily to become a full-time coach. I never imagined that to be the case. And as a matter of fact, the first three years of my coaching journey, I was the only in-house coach.
Speaker: So I gave away my coaching for free, yeah, to waterfront leaders because that's all I had. And so my idea about training myself to become a coach was always that it makes me a better leader, a better listener, and a better human being.
Speaker: That was always my excitement and interest about that, not necessarily to say goodbye to corporate life and become a full-time coach. um ah Definitely, but still I think a lot of people are afraid, right? Even if um the value is there, they maybe get opportunities, they get messages on LinkedIn.
Speaker: um I see a lot of executives, they just don't even respond to recruiting requests or headhunting requests. And I think a big um first step could be, or even a small, that could turn out being a big step.
Speaker: Just respond, take the call and not and be very clear that you're not looking for the next full-time gig, but you're available maybe for consulting on the side. And this is my limitations. I have a full-time job. This is priority.
Speaker: But one to five hours a week, if it's planned out well, can work. And this is my day rate. Be my guest because sometimes a lot of companies hire executives um and target executives in hiring.
Speaker: which they don't even can utilize fully, right? Because they are too big for the role, for instance, but still a fraction of their knowledge and expertise could really 10x decision making.
Speaker: And I think there you just don't need to be in this employee mindset of saying, no, I'm not allowed or... um No, no, no. When I do it and I want to do it right and I want to do it fully.
Speaker: Why? Yes. Why not being opportunistic enough there? So um how did you start and how also did it impact your income? Because you said you had a family, right? And um you were, um i think I think, the main provider of um everything, right? from men That's right. Yeah. Salary step-by-in and income step-by-in. So, yeah okay, can you walk us through this yeah process and and what's actually happening here? Of course, whatever you can share, but I think that's really interesting as well to others.
Speaker: So the first thing I want to say is on the day I decided it's time to jump ship and I agreed everything with my employer and I worked my notice and all that, I made a big announcement on LinkedIn to say, and at the time i had...
Speaker: I believe 7,000 followers, something like that. um I said, look, it's time for me to say goodbye. I had a very catchy image with Borch Khalifa behind me and the Vodafone speech mark.
Speaker: So kind of split image. One is to say gratitude and thank you. And the other one is the future is um The best is yet to come is my my my hashtag.
Speaker: um And I also announced on LinkedIn to my only 7,000 followers at the time, I think it was actually 3,000 followers when I jumped in, that I am open for business.
Speaker: And those of you who had maybe considered working with me and were scared by what, I'm not gonna wait for a year to work with this guy, are welcome to hit me up.
Speaker: And I kid you not, i actually took out the entire summer as a relaxing time. i mean, after 26 years of being in a hamster wheel, I mean, you need a month or two just to relax and wind down.
Speaker: And it wasn't so much of a relaxing because we also moved house, we moved country, we moved continent, we moved everything. We had to find a new school for my son, all those things. Anyway, but it was good that I didn't do work work during those two months.
Speaker: So I had only left of 22, September, October, November, December, four months, right? Now, hear my words. In those four months, I earned more than I earned as a full-time executive and a full-time expat. I was an international assignee in London.
Speaker: The company you f paid for everything, the housing, the schooling, denying the nanny, the business, the dad, the car, the pension, the the shares, that everything. in those four months.
Speaker: So I thought to myself, oh my goodness, this is just some lucky, you know, sometimes people win the lottery. I just won the lottery. That's what I thought of it. Then I had 23, which was a full year, right?
Speaker: 12 months. I actually knew only worked 10 months any given me year. So you take one month out in the summer, you take December out and that gets you to 10 months. In those 10 months or 12 months, I earned clearly more than I earned in the four months.
Speaker: And I had 24, which was, again, better than 23. So what I can now say with a degree of confidence is that what what am i what What I am doing clearly seems to be valued by the organizations and the leaders that come to me.
Speaker: And of course, the book sales is a part of that, but it's a very small part of that total income. um but By far the biggest, more than 80% of that is the pure coaching that I do.
Speaker: And um then you have maybe more freedom, but of course you also have commitments, right, towards customers and clients and you just need to need to deliver and there is nobody um that um can ah say what you have to do, right? You you choose by yourself, but...
Speaker: It needs to work and people need to value that by paying the right price, right? And also you need to write the right amount um to match that. But you you you did it, right? So you made more money, you had more freedom, but what about the fears?
Speaker: Yeah, well, the fears started to fade away as soon as I saw that I am doing what I love doing. And not only that, it's liberating. I mean, Thomas, I cannot tell you, and this is not about Vodafone or Adidas or GE or any of the companies I used to work for.
Speaker: You do have this thing called politics in any organization. Nobody likes to admit it, but it's a reality. I have zero politics in my life and I've had it for almost three years now.
Speaker: I have zero meaningless meetings. Can you believe how many meetings I had in my diary that I had no control over? 100% I can imagine. They were just put in.
Speaker: and you better show up because this sponsor or this stakeholder, this senior guy wants to see you there. Well, okay, sure, i' a better show up. I have none of that. And the best part is, and I've actually had two clients that I've turned down in the three years now.
Speaker: One I questioned, his coachability and you know my my kind of coaching is all about getting results for the client. And if I feel already in the chemistry session that they're not really in it, I might as well say no.
Speaker: And the other one, because he was so disrespectful towards his own direct reports in our chemistry conversation, and I thought, I can't work for someone like that. I have now the privilege to be able to say no to those clients. Whereas before,
Speaker: I was a generalist in HR. It was like forced marriage. Meet your new business partner. And I'm thinking, oh my God, out of all the leaders we have in the company, I'm supposed to work with this one. Well, that's just what it is. It's a corporate thing. You never get to kick your boss.
Speaker: um I can also say the same. and So I think what was really um great recently, I think one or two years ago I started doing it, I cut every one-on-one. I don't have one-on-ones, but everybody can call me anytime and specifically go through a certain agenda with me, even if it's the night, if it's the morning, if it's on WhatsApp, if it's a Google Hangout.
Speaker: But I don't do this just sitting there waiting and let's talk about... something just that we talk, right? But everybody can have direct access and just call me up because that's that's relevant.
Speaker: And then really I'd rather spend my time outside in nature than sitting in this meeting and just doing it because not really questioning why. um Okay, but let's switch topics.
Speaker: How do you get into the C-suite? Yeah, well, that's a big, big question. And there are multiple ways how one can do that. um I actually did that as part of a project when I was working for Rush, the pharmaceutical company based out of Switzerland.
Speaker: So I went around and interviewed the most senior 100 leaders. At the time, Brosh had 85,000 employees. So this is like your less than top 1% of the total company.
Speaker: And i there was no chat GPT at the time, sadly. So I had to do that all manually. And I wasn't quite sure what's going to come out of it. but But it just so happened that what I then came up with, so I read through all those quantitative interview answers and then tried to theme them into something that makes sense.
Speaker: And I came up with 12 themes, are actual experiences that leaders need me to have in order to be considered for their top positions.
Speaker: And the the three dimensions were the business domain, the people domain and the self-development domain. And underneath each one of those were four experiences. So this became the the experience map.
Speaker: It actually won two awards because of the pragmatic, practical application of it. And because it was really done based on research. I didn't just guess what people must do in order to get to the top.
Speaker: I actually went and interviewed top 100 leaders. And that's how I arrived to that conclusion. um So yeah, there are many things leaders can do in a more systematic way to help them break into the C-suite.
Speaker: um And although that wasn't one of the 12 experiences, I can certainly say that working with the right coach can also be a game changer for those leaders as well.
Speaker: But what are attributes, what you can see that really work and help to get into the C-suite? One is system systematic approach. So this is what I can also think it's it's really a pro that you are organized, systematic, and you are able to to build systems and see them. um what What else do you think is there?
Speaker: Yes. So bear in mind, when I did this exercise, I was not chasing for attributes or anything in particular. was just curious to hear is... what is the route to the top job.
Speaker: That's all I cared about. So I wasn't necessarily looking for, oh, what are the top 10 competencies of, you know, breaking into the C-suite or anything like that. So if I wanted to share some more ah concrete examples with you,
Speaker: um in terms of the three ah areas I just mentioned to you. right I did mention to you that this is something that um yeah is is very concrete. So when I say the business domain, one of the key areas for leaders to develop was to understand the commercial aspect of the business.
Speaker: Now, this may sound simple to you, but the reality is, especially in what I call support functions. So this is HR, finance, IT, t communication, legal, right?
Speaker: It's not common and certainly not the case that every one of those people actually spends time understanding the value drivers of this business that I'm working for.
Speaker: So that's the first one. The second one is that you need to work with a variety of client groups, right? So if I look back at my own career, I worked with commercial leaders, I worked with scientists, I worked with functional leaders, I worked with all sorts of different type leaders, because guess what? They each will challenge me in a different way, and that's going to keep myself sharp and on my toes.
Speaker: One of the other experiences that came up was international experience, meaning living and working in different countries. So I am privileged in that I have been living and working in five countries and I call now the UAE home for the second time, but I may have as well just being based in one country and still kind of made my career.
Speaker: um And then the other aspect was to work in a variety of business scenarios, right? I remember when I worked in Western Europe all my corporate life and then had my first assignment into the Middle East, I was really lost for,
Speaker: ideas as to how to grow a company. Because all I had done before was to kind of keep it flat, maybe grow it by 1% or decline by 3%. But I'd never ramped up a company. So when I joined BAT in Iran at the time, the company had 70 people on the on the payroll.
Speaker: And by the time I left the role two and a half years ago, after that, we had 1,000 people, right? So how do we go from 70 to 1,000? I never did that before. So working in different business scenarios also helps you to stay sharp.
Speaker: And so a hundred percent these are just some ideas as to how leaders can work on concrete experiences, accumulate them over time so that as and when they are ready to move up, they are considered for those kind of top moves.
Speaker: Okay, then I'll try to summarize. So overall, um some helping, um let's say, factors to get into the C-suits are, first of all, Being and staying sharp, understanding the commercial side of the business slash the value drivers, then having a diverse experience um with um working with different functions or groups and leaders within these groups within a company um in order to stay sharp again. right um
Speaker: Also get coaching and be able to um see and build systems. Yes, yes. And gain international perspectives by moving And gain international perspectives.
Speaker: Yes. Yeah. Yeah. so Yeah. and sure Totally makes sense. And what are the biggest mistakes you see when you are in the C-suite? Oh, wow. That's a big topic. So the first thing I see is when I start working with a leader that may not be
Speaker: fully convinced on the people side, right? So they are great with the business side, they get the numbers, they get the value drivers, they're great with customers, all that. It will eventually dawn on them that they could sit in that corner office, beautiful views over the city for as long as they want. If they don't have the right team, not much is gonna happen, right?
Speaker: And that's sometimes a hard realization. So that's, ah if if if I were to point out just one thing that a lot of leaders underestimate as of when they make it into the C-suite is that you can be as good as you are, you're only as good as you are.
Speaker: And so you need a whole army of people to help you move in the right direction and to execute all the wonderful strategies and the blue picture sky thinking you have in your mind.
Speaker: So that's that's the one. The other one I want to cite is actually from a fellow transition coach. His name is Dr. Ty Wiggins. He's a searcher partner with Russell Reynolds.
Speaker: He just published his own book, I Met Him In Dubai, called The New CEO. um And he has interviewed, I don't know how many CEOs, I think it's over 100 or so.
Speaker: And he asked them the question, what is your biggest regret? And believe it or not, Thomas, in hindsight, obviously, like he interviewed them a year after they had been appointed CEO, first time CEO.
Speaker: And by far, I don't know what the percentage is, 60% or so, cited the biggest regret being that they didn't move quickly enough to replace one or two leadership team members.
Speaker: Although they had significant doubts, they just didn't feel it's the right thing to do or they wanted to give them more time or they wanted to be more fair, they wanted it to be whatever, and only to realize that all they collected was incremental data points to something they inherently knew to be true three or four months into the role.
Speaker: So that is by far the biggest regret of CEOs who don't move quickly on one or two team members, especially those that they have significant doubt as to whether they can deliver what they want them to do.
Speaker: Great. We need to wrap up. Thank you so but ah so much, Navid. um So what we will do, we will add and the links to your book and everything in the show notes and then everybody can connect and and follow you from there on.
Speaker: Thank you so much. Thank you, Thomas. My pleasure.
Speaker: Bye.
