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236- "Veganism is bad for animals"
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Perhaps only the Daily Mail could provide us with a quote to this effect, and so it has proved this week: Former Veganuary communications chief, Toni Vernelli, has provided the seemingly confusing sentiment this week that veganism is actually preventing animal suffering from easing....
No, we weren't quite sure either!
Nonetheless, Dominic, Shane & Anthony attempt to dissect this and eight other bits of news from the vegan & animal rights space over the last three weeks from across the world.
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Enough of the Falafel is a community of people who love keeping on top of the latest news in the world of veganism & animal rights. With the Vegan Week podcast, we aim to keep listeners (& ourselves) informed & up-to-date with the latest developments that affect vegans & non-human animals; giving insight, whilst staying balanced; remaining true to our vegan ethics, whilst constantly seeking to grow & develop.
Each week we look through news stories from the past 7 days in the world of veganism & animal rights.
If you spot any news stories that might catch our fancy, or have an idea for a discussion topic, get in touch via enoughofthefalafel@gmail.com.
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This week's stories:
https://www.rmoutlook.com/lifestyle/floridas-rare-and-controversial-black-bear-hunt-kills-52-11682792
https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2025/dec/29/stingless-bees-from-the-amazon-granted-legal-rights-in-world-first
https://www.farminguk.com/news/dairy-farms-pushed-to-the-brink-as-milk-prices-fall-below-costs_67773.html
https://www.gov.uk/government/news/defra-announces-biggest-animal-welfare-reforms-in-a-generation
https://www.theanimalreader.com/2025/12/30/italy-approves-first-cage-free-farming-fund-in-2026-budget/
https://www.farminguk.com/news/chlorinated-chicken-row-as-us-seeks-leverage-over-stalled-uk-tech-pact_67774.html
https://blog was.simpleheart.org/p/four-takeaways-from-the-shocking
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c4g9y20j259o
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-15416177/Former-Veganuary-champion-quits-run-meat-eating-campaign.html
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Thanks everyone for listening; give us a rating and drop us a message to say "hi"; it'll make our day!
Dominic, Shane & Ant
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Transcript
Introduction and New Year Greetings
00:00:00
Speaker
Hello everybody and welcome to 2026. Happy New Year folks! I am Dominic and joining me for this special episode are Anthony and Shane.
Vegan Week and Humorous Takes
00:00:13
Speaker
But that's enough of the falafel, it's time for Vegan Week.
00:00:17
Speaker
So I think vegans go looking for trouble even when they're not looking for trouble. That's not what butter's used for. Brrr! Take your lab-grown meat elsewhere. We're not doing that in the state of Florida.
00:00:30
Speaker
Should I call the media and say, hi, sorry. True education. younger generation are getting know how brutal these practices are. That leaves a lot of pizza delivery companies in problems with things.
00:00:41
Speaker
What this? What kind of movie is this? It's comedy gold, maybe. Any form of social injustice has... connection with another. As long as you don't get the wee brunions with the horns you'll be alright.
00:00:54
Speaker
Does veganism give him superpowers?
00:01:00
Speaker
I cannot fly around the city. I don't have laser vision. and Hello everyone, this is Anthony. Happy New Year from me too. Thank you for coming along and listening to our show. We're very, very glad that you are here. hey everyone, this is Shane. If you're a new listener, welcome. This is our news show where normally we look through vegan and animal rights news from the last week or so, except we have been on our festive break. So buckle up, we've got three weeks of news to catch up on.
00:01:34
Speaker
But that's enough of the falafel. Let's hear what's been going on over the last three weeks.
00:01:42
Speaker
For more details on the upcoming news stories, including links to our original source material, check out our show notes for this episode available on your podcast player.
00:01:54
Speaker
Excellent. So we have so many stories to catch up on. And regular listeners will know that we're not just based in the UK, where Anthony and I are recording from. We have Shane over in the US and we try and share stories from all over the
Controversial Florida Black Bear Hunt
00:02:11
Speaker
world. And our first story is one from Florida. There is a rare and controversial black belt.
00:02:20
Speaker
bear hunt. It's a really sad story that's taken from Rocky Mountain Outlook. ah Shane, this is something that, you know, living in ah Manchester, one of the northern cities of the UK, I don't know anything about black bears at all. What's this story all about? So apparently Florida had outlawed hunting from black bears since 2015.
00:02:47
Speaker
And this year they opened it up again and they had issued a bunch of permits, and 52 bears were killed. And according to them, this is part of their wildlife management strategy. And I think, as we all know, wildlife management is pretty much a hollow excuse for killing animals, and we hear that over and over again.
00:03:07
Speaker
Opponents of the hunt are concerned because they feel like there was a lack of transparency about the number of bears killed. um Initially, the state refused to report the numbers, and the count of 52 was self-reported. So activists are calling the whole design of the hunt kind of fishy.
00:03:23
Speaker
Now, the good news is that if we are assuming that the number of 52 is accurate, that number is much lower than in 2015, because in 2015, 304 bears were killed. And that whole hunt was apparently so chaotic, it had to be shut down early early. Now, that number might have been lower because either one, the state overestimated the bear population, which again reinforces how much of a lie the wildlife management argument is.
00:03:51
Speaker
Or because, and here's ah ah more good news, conservationists took up enough permits to make a difference. So the Sierra Club, which is an environmental group, encouraged opponents of the hunt to apply for a permit and then not to use it.
00:04:04
Speaker
And they reported that about 50 of the 172 permits issued went to opponents of the hunt. So it's really nice to see opponents doing something and hopefully making a difference in this case. Thank
Wildlife Conservation Efforts Globally
00:04:16
Speaker
you, Shane. It really is ah unimaginable to me.
00:04:19
Speaker
I've been lucky enough to travel around with my work to other parts of the world, and I remember traveling to India, and there being wild tigers out there. But the conservation for that, they had been hunted, the numbers had really, really grown, and there was still very much a let's protect the tigers attitude there.
00:04:38
Speaker
It's a shame that's not currently the case with the bears. But like you say, Shane, there are some good takeaways from that story as well. I've just been doing a bit typing as Shane's been covering that. And we we covered a few months ago the fact that, as as you mentioned here, Shane, there's been folk from an animal rights or environmental point of view who've been trying to block this by buying up the permits. And I just wanted to draw attention to that because I don't think we've ever reported it as it being something that has a financial cost. But from what I can see, it costs a hundred pounds, sorry, a hundred dollars for Florida residents or $300 or non-residents to apply for these permits. So actually, I don't know, i I have even more admiration for these folk who are
00:05:25
Speaker
applying for these permits to try and stop other people doing it because it comes at a cost you know there's one thing us putting ourselves in the way of harm for animals without having to pay but you know having a financial burden on you kind of really shows how important these things are to to animal lovers and and kudos to those people for doing that And this was a lottery, so who knows how many opponents actually applied and then just, you know, didn't make the lottery. But we know about 50 at least did. So that's wonderful.
00:05:55
Speaker
Thank you, Shane. And thank you, Anthony. OK, our next story is a UK story. It's something that took place at the end of last year, just before Christmas.
UK Animal Welfare Reforms
00:06:06
Speaker
And it's from the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs, or EMSS.
00:06:12
Speaker
DEFRA announced their biggest animal welfare reforms in a generation. So often when we're hearing about the UK being called a nation of animal lovers, this only applies people. pets, but ah this does ah actually have impact on farmed animals as well as companion animals. So there are ah reforms on dog breeding practices, there's a consulting on a ban of the use of electric shock collars, new licensing for domestic rescue and rehoming organisations, But also in farmed animal legislation, a move away from confinement systems such as colony cages for laying hens and the use of pig farrowing crates and addressing the welfare issues that arise from the use of carbon dioxide to stun pigs, promoting the use of slow growing meat chicken breeds. I'm not sure what that one means. It does sound like there are some positives. Anthony, am I being overly optimistic with my reaction? What's your take on this? Well, I think it depends on the lens you're looking at. I mean, we've said many times on the show that actually we we can't rely on government to do our work for us as animal advocates, nor should we celebrate too soon with these things. And I i think in a world where our media and our information... you You have to be so careful to not take things too literally. Like one word different can mean a whole world of difference. So they're they're saying here in this document, they're banning trail hunting, whereas they are promoting the use of slow growing meat brands and they are moving away from confinement systems.
00:07:58
Speaker
Those are three very different verbs, aren't they? And actually, all of these things are still at a consultation stage. So nothing is in law, nothing is decided. Whereas our news outlets and our media, including ourselves, we can report these things as if they are happening. So I think we always have to bear that in mind.
00:08:18
Speaker
However, I take this as a real positive story. Yes, there is the chance that none of this could go through. Yes, there's the chance that even if it does go through, the next government, whether it's Reform UK or Tory or Labour or whatever, could reverse it.
00:08:33
Speaker
but Or Green Party, Anthony, or Green Party. Of course, absolutely, absolutely. Up Zak Polanski, up the revolution. But what gives me heart here is you have grassroots activists like Joey Carbstrong, like folk who are raging against Iceland and other people who are promoting these Franken-chickens and things like that. I think that's what the slow-growing meat chicken breeds is is referring to, it's kind of like an inverse of these chickens that grow really quickly in 30 days and are then killed. and And it's really detrimental to their health, as well as their tragically short lives, that the burden that is put on their joints and everything like that is horrific. So I think the government is saying, we're going to promote chickens that live longer than 30 days, which from a vegan perspective, I don't think we really
00:09:26
Speaker
carry me the way, do we? The fact is, I think at least half of these measures that the government is saying they're focusing on or going to have a nudge towards are all things that have been campaigned for or campaigned against in the last few years by vegan animal rights activists. And either that's a coincidence Or that shows that these things have an impact. And like I say, I don't want to get away from the fact that we cannot rely on government to do what is right for animals. However, it shows that us putting pressure on does have an impact. I've just started. volunteering with a local anti-Greyhound racing group. And there's a tiny number of us outside a tiny proportion of the races that happen at this Greyhound racing stadium. However, the idea is to be a constant irritation and to get inside people's heads. And it can be discouraging because we never stop anyone going in. No one turns around because we're there. but we're just planting a little seed in their heads and maybe further down the line, enough pressure, enough taboo, enough, ooh, maybe we shouldn't do this, can change people's behaviors. So I'm really glad to see all these things. You'll see from my pick of the week, there's one of them I want to focus on. in particular. But I think, yeah, the more we can move towards this as a society, the better. The rhetoric of a nation of animal lovers is complete claptrap. um Emma Reynolds is is using words that she thinks as environment secretary will will get her kudos or whatever. But I think as a bunch of sceptical old vegans, we can see through a lot of it. But um definitely news I'd like to start the new year with. So we'll take it. Yeah, it's an interesting time here in the UK. I'm a 46-year-old person and I've always lived here in England and or Wales and mostly we've had a right-wing government. We've had like the Conservatives in power. We currently have our supposed left-wing government, Labour Party, and we could definitely speak for hours debating the various aspects of
00:11:35
Speaker
how are our current Labour government? Are they that left wing? Short answer, not in my opinion. But I think if the fear of giving like the most mild of praise here, I think they could have been worse for animal welfare. They could have been worse. There have been things and I'm a big critic of this Labour government, this supposed left wing government, but they could have been worse. There have been changes and you know let's let's remain optimistic but not complacent let's keep campaigning keep fighting hooray for that so uh over to shane for the next story now uh shane i don't know if you're aware it's a little bit of a running joke here in in the uk If you go, oh, I read it in The Guardian, that's like our most left-leaning mainstream newspaper. And I definitely do read The Guardian. And we've got a story here for The Guardian. And it looks really good news for me. There is... ah
00:12:37
Speaker
a stingless bee species, which is from the Amazon, and it has been granted legal rights. And this is the first time ever in the world that such a creature has been given such rights. So this sounds really very positive. What's your take on this,
Legal Rights for Amazonian Bee Species
00:12:59
Speaker
Shane?
00:12:59
Speaker
I think it's a little bit of a mixed bag. Oh, okay. yeah Basically, this is species of stingless bees that are in the Amazon. They're threatened by all the usual dangers. Climate change, deforestation, pesticides, European bees, which were introduced in the 1500s. These happen to be the planet's oldest bee species, and they were granted legal rights, which means that a mandate is established that is going to require policies for the bee survival And that includes habitat reforestation and restoration, strict regulation of pesticides and herbicides, mitigation of and adaptation to the impacts of climate change,
00:13:43
Speaker
the advancement of scientific research, that's always one that i I wonder about, and the adoption of the precautionary principle as a guiding framework for all decisions that may affect their survival.
00:13:56
Speaker
Now, I'm just not sure how vegan the story is because the article mainly focuses on how the indigenous people of the Amazon have used the bees for honey for centuries. And there's also a lot of information on the special medicinal properties of the honey produced by these bees. What might be something to watch is if the protection for these bees is a catalyst for other bees or animals or other insects to be granted protections because it does say that they're the first insects to be granted legal rights anywhere, but I'm just not 100% sure what that means by legal rights. Well, yeah, it's not it's not stopping them being exploited by the indigenous people, is it?
00:14:36
Speaker
No, yeah exactly that's exactly what I about to say. You're right, that the protections are not from people using them. It's not for humans using them. It's just against extinction. So, you know, are these really protections? Okay, but in some ways a positive move, better that there is a move in a direction in this way than a move in the other way. But yeah, thank you, Shane. Yeah, and it'll be interesting to see if these protections or this turns into something else. I mean, maybe someday this could go to court and they could cite this case and it could give protections to other animals, like real protections, you know? I think there's something as well about the fact that... that
00:15:19
Speaker
this is the first insect that's had legal protection. We've we've kind of had legal personhood for for a few animals and rivers and mountains and things like that. And I think the more commonplace that is, the less of a jump it is for the next case.
00:15:35
Speaker
where And it' they seem to be isolated cases at the moment, don't they, in the early 21st century. But hopefully we are nudging towards a scenario where legal personhood for animals can become more of a norm.
00:15:51
Speaker
We're a long way off that, but but that only comes with more and more isolated cases. And I would say this is another isolated case, but there's a cumulative effect that could have an impact longer term, isn't there? Thank you, Anthony. Thank you, Shane.
Italy's Support for Cage-Free Farming
00:16:04
Speaker
Well, leaving the Amazon and coming back to Europe, but mainland Europe now, our next story is from all the way in Italy. It's from the Animal Reader and it's a story about cage-free farming. Now, those listeners who have tuned into our show regularly know that we often discuss the fact that cages aren't necessarily the be-all and end-all, that some phrases like free-range aren't really that kind either.
00:16:37
Speaker
But progress is progress. seems to be a little bit of a theme of the ah of the news stories this week, that progress is progress. So Italy are approving cage-free fund so to support financially a move away from cage farming. they're saying that they'll provide 500 000 euros in 2026 and then 1 million euros each year from 2027 to support farmers moving to cage-free systems so Anthony what's your take on this let's start with that Anna Maria Pisapia's take on it she is head of compassion in world farming Italy And she points out that that amount is not enough to even help one farm fully transition away from fully caged animals to non-caged animals. So I think that kind of pragmatic overlook is important to bear in mind.
00:17:38
Speaker
However, in terms of symbolic steps, in terms of platforms that we can build on, I think it's an important one. I wonder if it it helps to look at animal oppression differently from the point of view that we as humans are the oppressors. So whilst we might say, well, let's look at the experience of a chicken. Does a chicken want to be inside a cage or does it want to be inside a quote free range barn? Whilst we could look at it from that point of view, I'd just say, well, let's pause the animal's experience for a moment. If we can agree that both of those examples are animal oppression, then we need to look at how we can change humans' attitudes because humans are the people, are the beings who are oppressing these chickens. And it's my belief that our identity is really important in terms of our actions. So if...
00:18:30
Speaker
as this story says, 91% of Italians oppose the use of cages in animal farming. We could say 91% of Italians identify as people who think cages are bad for animals, that the more we can solidify and firm up people's identities as people who don't harm animals, the better.
00:18:53
Speaker
I would say when I ate meat in my teens, I probably would have been someone who said, no, I don't think animals should be caged. I do eat chicken. I do eat turkey or whatever, but I don't want them to be caged. That seems a bit unnecessarily cruel. Of course, that's contradictory. Of course, it's hypocritical, blah, blah, blah. But our awareness can only be raised in so many steps, can't it? So I think getting to a stage where people identify themselves as people who don't want to cause unnecessary harm, that's a step from which we can educate ourselves further, I think. So In terms of outcomes for animals, i don't think this is to make any difference anytime soon.
00:19:34
Speaker
But in terms of reaching a tipping point where enough people identify as people who want to make a difference for animals, I help it i think it just helps build that portfolio of different tools and identities and things for the humans, because it's it's us that's doing the oppressing.
00:19:52
Speaker
So I think the more things that we can have, whether it's ah copies of The Guardian newspaper, hanging around on our coffee tables or little badges that say, I believe in cage-free eggs or whatever. The more things like that we have on our side as a society, I think the more likely we are to stop doing these behaviors. So well done everyone who's campaigned for this. And yes, like Anna Maria says, it's not really going to make a difference in the short term, but Long term, fingers crossed.
00:20:19
Speaker
Thank you, Anthony. It is Anthony who sources all these stories for us. And I am also someone who really appreciates the experience of the falafel podcast that we do because I skim read these headlines and go, oh, that sounds good. And then Anthony's like, but it means this. And that's shocking. That's shocking that like, you know, that seemingly large amount of money isn't all that it appears to be on first sight. I should say a large number of our contributors, including Shane, a part of a little WhatsApp group and news stories pop into my WhatsApp feed throughout the week. So whilst I have the final say on what goes in the show, I'm far from the only one sourcing the stories. So shout out to all of the lovely folk who helped me with that editing job. It's much appreciated. Anthony's a modest person as well. Modest as Well, we've got another story about money
UK Dairy Farms and Milk Price Pressures
00:21:14
Speaker
here. It's from Farming UK. So we don't just peruse ah sources of news that are explicitly vegan. We look at the news across all all sources. And Farming UK are reporting on how dairy farms in Britain are being pushed to the brink as milk prices fall below the costs. So with the rise of alternatives to dairy milk, there's been a great impact on the dairy industry. Shane, what have you taken from this story?
00:21:52
Speaker
Even though I don't 100% understand how milk prices and production all work, what I get from this article is that the cost of producing milk in the UK is now or soon will be higher than the price of milk, which means that dairy farmers are going to lose money. And so that's what these this organization is concerned about. And the blame seems to fall on a surge of milk output in the UK and overseas, And also, according to Farming UK, there's a lack of transparency and fairness by the processors of the dairy milk in the pricing. And there's lots of warnings in this article that farms are going to fail, that jobs will be lost, especially rural jobs.
00:22:34
Speaker
And there's hyperbolic warnings of risks to the milk supply. and while you know while I don't celebrate people falling on hard times, the article does mention that some farmers are considering exiting milk production altogether. And I think the article is saying, oh, no, some people might leave milk production. But I say, go ahead and leave.
00:22:54
Speaker
Now is the time to get it out, get another job, train in non-animal agriculture industry. Because what I suspect is happening in and the UK is what is happening in the United States. is that more and more people are buying and using plant-based milks, and there just isn't going to be the same demand for dairy. And the dairy industry really needs to accept that the demand's never going to return to what it was 10 years ago or 20 years ago. And despite its whining and its finger pointing, it's never going to be the same.
00:23:23
Speaker
Yeah. Some conversations cannot be reduced down to soundbites. And if you have a soundbite of, oh, think of the poor people losing their livelihood, then that's an oversimplification of the story. I remember being in an argument with one person who was a attacking my veganism and coming out with the old trope of, well, if everyone went vegan, where would all the animals go? And me arguing, thinking I had a strong argument, well, you know, animals are bred, animals are created for our consumption. There is a large amount of animals, like this constant, but, and me thinking that was a clear argument that they think that was a bad thing. And then being like,
00:24:10
Speaker
well, that's great, isn't it? More life. That's good. That's a good thing. I mean, like, how can you think that's a good thing? how is we We do need like deeper, ah longer conversations. I just wanted to weigh in and and say that this, you're you're absolutely right, Shane. It's completely hyperbolic, the whole thing of like, oh, that we're going to lose jobs. This is about rural culture and rural livelihoods. I've relocated from one rural area to another. But when we were relocating and choosing where to live, we did get some data on the the local areas and you know what what proportion of people work in different sectors and you know what's the makeup of the community, not in a horrific screening way, but we were just interested. And even in this very rural area that we live in, like two, 3% max of people work in agriculture and that's across arable agriculture as well. So that's that's plant-based farming as well as animal farming. And like you say, you don't you don't want people to fall on hard times. But I mean, as vegans, we still go into shops and buy food. We just buy different food, don't we? And I know some land is not suitable for growing certain things. But to say that, oh, well, if we stop producing milk, then...
00:25:22
Speaker
there's all of a sudden going to be 50% of people in in the countryside without a job. It's just nonsense. people People here have the same jobs as they do in town. People work in shops, they work in care, they work in schools, they work online, you know? And those that do work in Animal Ag can ah will be practical, hardworking people. They're not going to struggle to find other work. It's it's um disingenuous to say that that's a real concern, I think. Is it the case in the UK that most of the farms are owned by large corporations and it's not really the small farmer? So again, this is about large corporations that are worried about losing money because they're really the employers of these people.
00:26:04
Speaker
They're probably renting their land or of giving them the animals for rent or something. Yes. And they're probably the same corporations that will lay off 200 people in one go. So they're not they're not particularly worried about people losing their jobs. It's just when it suits them to say that it worries them, that it worries them. I think. I think.
00:26:23
Speaker
Thank you both.
UK-US Trade Dispute: Chlorinated Chicken
00:26:24
Speaker
Well, from one worrying story to another worrying story, this is also from Farming UK, the chlorinated chicken row. So Britain's facing renewed pressure from the White House to allow American chlorinated chicken and hormone treated meat into UK supermarkets as Donald Trump seeks trade concessions in exchange for reviving a collapsed US-UK technology deal. Now, some of the argument against this has been also that kind of
00:26:58
Speaker
We are a nation of animal lovers in Britain. Allegedly, we've got an animal welfare standard, allegedly, that we want to keep. So there's a big ah argument going on here. ah What's Anthony's reaction to this conflict today? Well, it's one of those where if you just read a little bit into the story and understand the wider context of trade deals and blah, blah, blah, you can start to see that actually there's a lot of hot air being spouted here. I am just finishing a book that I've been picking out over the last two years and by Nick Hayes called The Book of trespass or Trespass. And I thoroughly recommend anybody reading i've learned so much in its 350 odd pages and basically my conclusion from that book is that borders are not a good thing countries and states and things that divide us are not good things and i think politically there's a lot being made of this chlorinated chicken row there are things that we'll do to animals in this country as part of the quote processing of them that is not very nice and yes there's there's a ah difference between how it's done in the us compared to the uk with regards to the fact that in the us there's there are these chlorine baths if you like uh to get rid of bacteria and and we do things a different way in the uk but it's you know it's the pot calling the kettle black i i don't think we can hold up our hands and say Well, everything we do to to chickens and processing our food is completely lovely. So drawing attention to this difference is jingoism. It's xenophobia. I don't like it.
00:28:41
Speaker
And I say that whether it was to do with animal exploitation or not. So i I think it's a really disingenuous thing to focus on. Basically, the the pushback from the US at the moment is to say, no, come on, accept our chicken, accept our accept our chicken because there's been other things in in trade deals between the us s and the uk that have not quite gone the way they want so it's kind of a bit of a concession saying well i know you didn't want our chicken but you didn't accept this so how about the chicken thing again so in in in terms of outcomes for animals i don't think it changes things in terms of attitudes towards animal exploitation and animal welfare i'm disappointed that this kind of
00:29:22
Speaker
Right wing attitude of, whoa, look at what they do overseas. It's far worse. We're far better over here. I'm disappointed that that's getting more airtime. it's a load of old nonsense. And of course, whether you chlorinate a chicken after it's been killed, well, the chicken doesn't really care at that point, does it? So I think from a vegan point of view, it's not really a story to to pay much attention to in terms of how do we advocate when this story comes up, if someone in our workplace or someone in our family brings this up. I think the thing to do as a vegan is to point out that whether you chlorinate it or not,
00:29:54
Speaker
after it's been killed, it's it's still lost its life and it's still unnecessary. And there are still plenty of things that the US could point to in terms of what we do to to animals in the UK before and after they are killed too. So to to think that things are all cosy and blighty and no animal is ever harmed here is nonsense. And I think that's the thing to focus on if this conversation comes up in your conversations at work amongst family or or otherwise.
00:30:23
Speaker
dear listeners, in my opinion. In your learned opinion, Anthony, in your learned opinion. I don't know how well known, I'm going to reference a television show that in the UK, we've got a show called QI. It's been on for donkey's years. And there's like a comedian called Alan Carr, who's one of the regular contestants, Stephen Fry hosting. And on this falafel, I very much feel like the Alan Carr character, because what happens in this show is that they have to respond to things, think if they're true or false. And they have klaxon if someone gives an obvious wrong answer. So someone will go like, oh, you know, what color's the sky at night? Black. No, it's not black. It's a shade of blue or something like that. I feel like, you know, I'm the Alan Carr on this episode of Falafel because I'm going like, oh, coronated chicken, that's bad, isn't it? And he's like, well, actually, Dominic, this, that, the other. I'm like, oh, bees being safe, that's good, isn't it? No, actually, Dominic, which just goes to show what a fantastic learning experience it is, for me at least, being on the Enough of the Falafel show.
00:31:33
Speaker
so Shall I sound the klaxon now as well and point out that I think you mean Alan Davis and not Alan Carr? Oh, look at this! Look at this! I do mean Alan Davis. I do.
00:31:45
Speaker
What I make up. I have no idea who any of these people are. What lack in accuracy I make up for in enthusiasm. I think that's been my attitude to life. Well, we're going have one more news story. Each episode, we ask our contributors to choose a story of the week. And both of these stories are regarding legal practice. So I'm looking forward to hearing this week's Pick of the week. As well as producing these audio-based shows, our podcast hosts at Zencastr also provide the written transcript for each show. This is AI generated, so it might not always be 100% correct, but nonetheless, we hope that this will increase the accessibility of our show. So to access any of these written transcripts, head over to zencastr.com forward slash...
00:32:41
Speaker
vegan week. I'm going to spell it all for you.
00:32:50
Speaker
and a forward slash and then the word vegan, v-e-g-a-n, then a hyphen and then week. Zencastr.com forward slash vegan hyphen week.
00:33:01
Speaker
And then each transcript is embedded with any of the shows that you click on. All right, over to Shane for your pick of
Activists Guilty for Beagle Puppy Rescue
00:33:09
Speaker
the week. And this is a story concerning the law and beagle puppies, I believe. Shane, what's this story all about? So this is about the beagle puppy rescuers that were found guilty in u k court in mid-December.
00:33:25
Speaker
And basically five animal rights activists were found guilty of burglary after rescuing 18 beagle puppies from MBR Acres. And in case you don't know, MBR is Marshall Bio Resources. The defendants were Eben Lazarus, Ben Newman, Hannah Hunt, Nathan McGovern, and Lewis Elliott. They entered MBR Acres and took the puppies.
00:33:48
Speaker
They said they did it. They said they did it to save the dogs from a life of suffering. And apparently this is the first legal case in the UK involving open rescue. And open rescue is basically going in and openly rescuing animals.
00:34:04
Speaker
So that was the first article, which is just a basic facts article. And then the second article we have is from, I believe, I don't know if it's his blog or his sub stack, but Wayne Shung, who's one of the leaders of DXC here in the United States, He um is offering his insights based on his experiences of going to court after open rescues with DXC.
00:34:26
Speaker
And, you know, he has a lot to say about it, but um he really has four main takeaways for why he thinks the activists were found guilty, because I'm taking it that this was a bit of a shock to everybody that they didn't think they were going to be found guilty. So his four main takeaways were first that the evidence regarding animal cruelty and the motives of rescue were disallowed. And this is something we also saw in the Zoe Rosenberg trial in and the United States, that the judge did not allow the defendants to talk about their motives. So the the cruelty was not allowed to be mentioned. Apparently, the judge shouted down one of the defendant's attorney for referencing the abuse in the closing argument. So basically what you have here is them saying, well, we did this, the prosecution thing, there is this burglary and they're not, and the defendants aren't allowed to say yes, but we did it because of these reasons. They weren't allowed to give what essentially is a necessity defense, the necessity of doing this.
00:35:22
Speaker
and The second reason that Wayne Shunk gives for the, the, guilty verdict is that the government made extraordinary efforts to suppress public discussion of the case. And he calls it an anti-democratic attempt to seal the verdict from public disclosure and also to silence the animal rights movement and the media from saying much about the case. I don't I don't know exactly what the government did, but apparently they were trying to suppress this story from getting out. Thirdly, he blames the animal rights activists, saying that they were in an echo chamber thinking that these are dogs, the public's gonna be on our side. He says that they largely abandoned the necessity defense, which is the argument that rescue is necessary as a last resort.
00:36:02
Speaker
I don't know if that's very accurate considering that the judge ruled that they couldn't use the defense. So I don't know how that could be their animal rights, people's, that the defendant's fault. But he argues that they could have had betterty better storytellers on their side. They could have made more of an effort to deliver the story to the jury and the public in a more compelling way. He does end it on a hopeful note. And he says that the defendants won where it matters because they did save 18 beagles and those puppies are out and they will not be experimented on. He also says they won because their case is now going to be up for appeal and they could, in that appeal, use the necessity defense. And so that could establish a precedent for that.
00:36:43
Speaker
um He also says that the stakes were asymmetric and meaning that the history of social movements like the civil rights movement, the suffrage movement, show us that courtroom losses often end up being the biggest victories in history. because they show the public the need for change. So, you know, the public may see this and think, oh, wow, they sentenced these, well, they haven't sentenced them yet.
00:37:04
Speaker
They found these people guilty for rescuing puppies. that You know, that's not right. And I guess we're going to see what happens. a I don't know if they do an appeal first and then a sentencing or if they sentence and then appeal, but apparently that they it's possible they might get 10 years. So I guess we're going see what happens. I'd like to say as well, I think you're absolutely right, Shane, the the fact that people's indignation at a lost court case can can do a lot. but But already now, I mean, petitions to the government don't actually mean anything will get done. But I notice in the Animal Reader coverage of this, dated the 16th of December, It noted that there were 39,000 signatures in for the petition asking the UK Home Office to shut down MBR Acres and rehome the dogs. 39,000 signatures. I've just clicked on it now to sign it. And it's already over 100,000, 100,000 being the critical number that triggers an automatic submission of it to Parliament. And I think it needs to be discussed if it exceeds that number. So the the numbers have almost tripled three weeks. And I assume that is from this story doing the rounds because it is deemed newsworthy and And like you say, it gets people's sympathy and attention. So lots of good can come from this, but it's it's still prickly, isn't it? Hearing that five dedicated activists could be in jail for 10 years. I know Zoe Rosenberg, it was listed as four years she could have got and she got 30 days. But still, I hate being complacent with things like that. It does send a chill down my spine. The thought of good people who who want to make a positive difference being incarcerated for that long.
00:38:53
Speaker
Yeah. Zoe Rosenberg, actually, I think she got three months, but she was going to have to do, yeah, she had to do 30 days in the facility and then she was going to be able to possibly be released on house arrest if she had good behavior. I think she actually ended up doing maybe two weeks and now she's an on house arrest. And then there's other provisions. She may have to pay a fine or so on, but yeah, it was more than 30 days. Thank you, Shane. And thank you, Anthony. And, uh, I'm glad that enough of the falafel
Potential UK Ban on Trail Hunting
00:39:20
Speaker
is also ah spreading news of this story and spreading the capacity for people to also get on and sign the petition and hopefully have a positive impact. We've got one more pick of the week and I'm ready for a big... ah
00:39:36
Speaker
klaxon bell when i say that anthony's story saying that the the bbc news reporting trail hunting to be banned i think trail hunting being bad is a good thing but let's find out what anthony has to say about this what's the story here anthony well My opinion, Dominic, would be that it is the next chapter of the the hunting saga, but it's it's far from ah closed shut case and and and everything like that.
00:40:12
Speaker
So yeah, my Facebook feed is somebody, like I say, who lives in a rural area. I obviously follow lots of animal rights organizations on social media. So my Facebook at the moment is full of this because I've got all the all the folk in in local rural Facebook groups that I'm part of telling me whether roads are closed in my area and and what's on sale at the local post office. That's all full of hunt talk at the moment.
00:40:38
Speaker
All the animal rights stuff is. And it even made it into my family's conversations on Boxing Day. There was a large discussion on it. I wouldn't say it was a debate because ah despite the fact there were two vegans in the room, none of us were saying much. It was everyone else being very indignant about the fact that people still go out hunting. So that was that was pleasant. But it's it's on a lot of people's minds. We cover hunting and SAB's efforts to and other people's efforts to to stop it and suppress it a lot on the show. And yes, as part of DEFRA's new animal welfare strategy that we mentioned at the top of the show, this is part of it. So ah ministers basically talking about whether they can ban it and and what what legal things they can put in place. There's not really many new arguments here. I think really the news
00:41:28
Speaker
I would say just from my perspective, and I i don't know whether Shane and Dominic, and whether it's come into your sphere in the last couple of weeks at all, but it's it's bringing a few people out of the woodwork and and people are, ah are they being pressured? Some people are being pressured, I feel, or are feeling pressured to take a side on an issue that they might not know much about.
00:41:51
Speaker
And I certainly see that in a lot of the local community Facebook groups that I'm part of, you see a lot of people sharing and liking posts that are saying, all good to see the hunt out on Boxing Day because the whole argument of, oh, we're being persecuted, this is our rural way of life, this is our tradition, and it's under attack, that is working with a lot of people. And I'm going to venture an opinion that I reckon most people who are out supporting the hunt or are liking Facebook posts or what have you or just casually saying, oh goodness, it's awful that they're stopping people trail hunting.
00:42:30
Speaker
I reckon most of those people don't know what actually goes on. Maybe that's patronising, maybe it's ignorant of me, but I think most people, if they see what some hunts get up to, some people might say it's all hunts, but let's just say it's some hunts get up to, I think a lot of people wouldn't support that. And I think it's maybe just people not liking the idea of their traditions or local customs being under attack. But the fact is, and as was the discussion in my family's home on um Boxing Day, whether your local tradition is under attack or not is kind of irrelevant. It's what is that tradition? If that tradition is slavery, if it's female genital mutilation, if it's tearing foxes limb from limb,
00:43:21
Speaker
then whether it's been going on for one day or a thousand years needs to stop really, doesn't it? I think we're we're past past those things. We ought to be more educated. So it's going to be interesting seeing how these things go. i imagine there's going to be a bit of a pendulum effect and we'll see we'll see this backlash from people who don't like the idea of their lives being interfered with.
00:43:45
Speaker
But i I wonder whether folk will start to become more enlightened and a lot of those people who have been saying, oh, good to see the hunt out, isn't it? I reckon the more that they can see actually what the good old jolly hunt gets up to, I think we will see that pendulum coming back towards her a pro-animal way of doing things. i've seen I've also seen some posts from a bloodhound group groups that do what's called hunting the clean boots. So instead of following animal sense, which is what trail hunting is supposed to do, they follow human sense. So people run ahead and they are chased.
00:44:28
Speaker
There's still dogs being exploited. There's still horses being exploited. And if you ask me, I reckon some of these hunting the clean boot folk, I reckon if there's a if there's a fox nearby, are you telling me it's not going to get persecuted? I don't know. Anyway, the fact is, it's it's not something I think a vegan is going to vote for, is it? um You know, you're still exploiting dogs. and horses.
00:44:51
Speaker
lot of nonsense arguments out there. lot of people saying, oh, so you're so basically 20,000 dogs are going to have to be killed then. It's well, no, you you don't have to kill the dogs. Have you have you considered rehoming them? Have you considered just feeding them and not sending them out after foxes? So this is the start of a new chapter, I think. And I i hope in 10, 20 time,
00:45:17
Speaker
a lot of folk who are now digging their heels and saying, oh, it's terrible, these rural traditions under attack, will actually look back and say, yeah yeah, we probably shouldn't have done that. I will finish by saying about just over 10 years ago, i used to do a type of Morris dancing where part of our costume was putting black face paint on our face. I'm not proud of doing that. At the time, me and the group or the many groups that I was with that did it, the line that was said and believed, I certainly believed it, was that it used to be soot from the chimney and it was done as a disguise because it was a form of begging. Begging used to be against the law many hundreds of years years ago. So you disguise who you were. And I suppose there was a bit of a shame about begging too. So you disguise yourself using soot.
00:46:01
Speaker
And so that's why we did it. And there reached a point about 10 years ago where the collective awareness all of a sudden was like, no, we really ought not to be doing this. And I'm embarrassed that it took that long. But until that happened, until we reached that critical point, lots of people would dig their heels and in and say, oh, you can't tell us what to do. It's just a disguise. Don't go telling me that I'm being racist. I'm not being racist. I'm not trying to upset somebody. But the fact is that now 10 years on, I can look back and go, yeah, that was terrible. We should have changed that much sooner. It's easier once you're the other side of it.
00:46:35
Speaker
But at the point at which you're under attack, a lot of people's instincts is to dig their heels in and and and say, stop attacking me, stop attacking me, without actually thinking about why they're being attacked.
00:46:46
Speaker
And I think that's what's happening in a lot of rural communities. But it's I think it's probably the the start of, like I say, this next chapter, there'll be a lot of furore, and hopefully, if the Labour government has got any balls, they will push through all the same. And um hopefully, in a few years, people can look back and say,
00:47:05
Speaker
Yeah, that's a bit embarrassing that we used to do that as a community, but at least we've seen better. But ah ah like I say, Shane, Dominic, I'd be interested, like, to what extent has this come on your radar? Is it just my rural centricness that that means it's everywhere for me at the moment?
00:47:21
Speaker
I go into a little bit of a vegan retreat over the festive period. So it's not really been on my radar. What about you, Shane? I never see anything about fox hunting in the United States. I've never heard anybody talk about it. I've only ever read about it in books or been exposed to it through this podcast. So it's not on the radar here at all. I also wanted to say that you guys, on many episodes, you've mentioned DEFRA. And every time I'm like, what is DEFRA? And I have to look it up. So just for our international listeners, DEFRA is the Department of Environment, Food and Rural Affairs, which is responsible for environmental protection, food farming and rural policy in England.
00:47:59
Speaker
yeah So in case you're wondering what DEFRA is. Yeah, absolutely. That's good. Good clarification. I reckon a lot of listeners wonder who this bloke Peter is and why we keep mentioning him. ah That's an international organization. but yeah but Yeah. Anthony, what what you were saying though about people digging their heels in, I think that's true of anything and not just, you know, like you were saying about the Morris dancing and the blackface. That's true of anything, any kind of like tradition that you want to change or anything you want to change, you know, over the holidays.
00:48:27
Speaker
I wanted to change something about ah ah a way that we do things and in ah my extended family. And there was just a lot of pushback, which surprised me because I thought it was something that was for the better. But I think anytime you, somebody, anytime there's any kind of change, people's instinct, human nature is to say, no, no, let's not change.
00:48:47
Speaker
And, and that's what we're fighting against in in some ways. And I wonder whether that is a bit worse at the moment. I don't think we're living through a worse age now than at any time in history. I just want to get that out there.
00:49:00
Speaker
But i think I think that is in the zeitgeist at the moment is this pathetic culture wars thing where you have to take a binary side on every single issue and the people who don't agree with you are the mortal enemy and what have you. And I think fox hunting, it gets a disproportionate amount of cover because it falls into so many elements of culture wars.
00:49:23
Speaker
So you've you've kind of got an upper class versus middle class, working class thing. You've got a rural thing versus city folk. You've got animal cruelty versus not animal cruelty. So I think it it it ticks a lot of those boxes, which gets it a disproportionate amount of cover. Not to, you know, play down the suffering that foxes, dogs, horses, and many other innocent animals suffer, but I think far more animals are exploited at the chicken farm down the road from me than, you know, in one day than the number of fox hunts over the last 10 years.
00:49:59
Speaker
So I think there's an element of that. To share a little positive Fox thing to round this off, on previous shows I've banged on and on and on about this wonderful video game I love called Gibbon, which is to do with the rainforest and to do with palm oil and to do with the exploitation of primates. And there's ah a wonderful video game I'm going to give a big shout out to called Spirit of the North 2, which is another independent video game just by a couple of American guys. And you play as a fox and proceeds of the game. they They give some money to the Save Fox Foundation and they do quite a lot of work on sort of seeing foxes in a positive light. And I say good on them. That's ah a lovely thing.
00:50:45
Speaker
That's my opinion. We're very keen to hear our listeners' opinions. It's not just us talking about what we make of the news. We're really, really keen for anybody to to get in touch with us. And every now and again, we dedicate a whole show to our i think we're overdue one of them. I reckon in a few weeks' time, maybe Shane Anthony and I will do a little mailbag episode. So if you want to be part of that, here's how to get in touch.
00:51:15
Speaker
To get in touch with us, just send us an email at enoughofthefalafel at gmail.com. We see ourselves as a collective, our listenership stretches all around the world and everyone's opinions, questions, feedback and ideas are what helps shape the show.
00:51:34
Speaker
Go on, send us a message today, enoughofthefalafel at gmail.com. Okay, we still have one last story to cover. Now, far earlier in this particular episode, Anthony mentioned that some of our contributors are in little WhatsApp group who send Anthony ideas for stories. Now, I don't take part in that particular WhatsApp group, but our final story is one that I saw and thought to myself...
00:52:04
Speaker
this is going to crop up on our falafel podcast. And here it is. I also spoke about how in the UK, it's a bit of a left leaning cliche to read The Guardian. Well, it's right leaning cliche that people ah read The Daily Mail if they've got views that are perhaps not the views commonly associated with listeners of our podcast. Perhaps The Daily Mail is a newspaper who are reporting on the former Veganuary champion quitting to run a meat-eating campaign.
Former Veganuary Leader's Controversial Move
00:52:43
Speaker
So ah Tony Vanelli has spent a long time campaigning against animal cutre cruelty. ah Tony was actually the head of communications at Veganuary.
00:52:56
Speaker
almost six years. Veganuary, course, the annual campaign to get people into veganism at the start the new year when people are doing their New Year's resolutions.
00:53:08
Speaker
But now ah Tony's saying ah forget Veganuary and claiming its dogma is unhelpful and actively damaging efforts to reduce animal suffering. So she has joined the animal welfare charity Farmkind, launching a new campaign encouraging people to eat meat whilst donating to causes aimed at improving the conditions in factory farming. So she's teaming up with various groups and doing a whole load of social media campaigning. Obviously, this is coming under attack from vegan groups. It's ah it's happening now, so it's the first time ever this is happening. Veganuary are reacting, saying that it's ah deliberately setting a fire and then donating to the fire brigade ah to offset meat consumption through donations ignores the root cause of animal suffering, continued demand.
00:54:15
Speaker
The Veganuary folks have warned that billions of animals would still be bred and slaughtered if consumption levels remain unchanged. So, ah you know, this is a horrific story. And when I first saw it, when I first saw a former Veganuary champion doing this, I didn't realise the length of time with which Tony had been engaging for January. I assumed that this was somebody who'd maybe just like dip their toe in and been involved for a little bit. But for somebody involved for years, I don't know. it kind of makes me think, wow,
00:54:52
Speaker
What is the motivation? What is the motivation? I mean, I think, you know, Anthony spoke about conflicts, you know, your own sort of Boxing Day dinner table with family members. And I'm always a little bit forgiving of like peripheral family members who maybe have views that are particularly well informed because you think, well, we're all ignorant on things that we don't yet know about. We're not born knowing everything.
00:55:18
Speaker
You know, I know what it's like to be ah a vegetarian in the past who was really anti-veganism. I've been that guy and I regret that. You know, I i learned, you know, Anthony's made comparisons to like Morris dancing a bit like, oh, this was a view. This was a tradition.
00:55:34
Speaker
And, you know, you learn and you progress. But to hear something like this, to hear about somebody who has for six years. years been so integral to take what I think is a really difficult and wrong, difficult and wrong, difficult and wrong viewpoint to have. I just i just think...
00:55:57
Speaker
What's going on there? What's going on? Like, what is? It almost makes me a little bit like conspiracy theorist. It's like, is is something, you know, is this, insane is there, is this like behind the scenes that like, you know, he's forcing her do this? It just seems ah It just seems like, you know, to use a comic book reference, it seems like Bizarro Land, you know, like the land of opposites. ah That's my take on it. Shane, Anthony, let's go to Anthony first. what's your ah What's your reaction to this nonsense? Well, I like to try and keep an open mind. my my My gut instinct is we've talked before about, oh, should there be a central vegan movement? Should we all sort of report to the higher authority and be more strategic and all go in one direction or what have you? And this is the opposite of that. So I think it it pulls that that initial, ah, somebody's dissenting. But that, you know, we should be open to to express our opinions. I think...
00:56:57
Speaker
Obviously, I don't know, but I imagine Tony Vernelli has left Veganuary under not pleasant circumstances. Maybe she's fallen out with people or something like that because she was doing PR ah interviews. There's a, if you Google her name, and vegan uh you pretty near the top of the search results there's an interview that she did at the start of 2024 with an animal rights group when she's still head of communications at veganuary so to within two years of that be running a campaign called forget veganuary um saying that veganism undermines things and what have you not only
00:57:35
Speaker
is her opinions on the best strategy for improving outcomes for animals. Not only must that have been changing, but that there must be some bad blood between her and Vigania. There must be. That's really disruptive. You you can agree to disagree, can't you? Or you can say, well, I don't agree with your approach to animal rights, but fine, you carry on doing your things. I'll do mine. But that that's really quite um adversarial, isn't it? And i I mean, there's contradictions in what farm kind say, but perhaps we'll come on to that. I mean, Shane, do you have any thoughts on this before I waffle on for too long? I feel like, I don't know what happened behind the scenes, but I feel like sometimes people, when they really want to see a change and they're very invested in something, and it can be just heartening to not see a change when you work so hard for that. And it can be, it can make you disillusioned and make you want to do anything to have an impact because it's not that she's turning her back
00:58:34
Speaker
on animal rights or veganism. She is joining with Farmkind to, I mean, this I don't know that this is the right move, but to encourage people to eat meat while donating to causes aimed at improving conditions in factory farming. So she seems to still care about what's happening to animals, but it seems like maybe she was just disheartened, disillusioned with Veganuary and felt like this is not making a change in she wanted to see a change and was willing to do something different to see if that would happen. When I was a young lad, I remember being bought a book of comics and this was in my meat eating days. It's like this big collection of funny jokes. And one of them really upset me. And it was this little panel of like, a we're turkeys voting for Christmas. And one of the turkeys like speaking and going, Well, it seems like such a fantastic move. Everyone else is enjoying it. And I remember that planting the seed in my head being like, oh, I don't find that funny, actually. That's made me feel really sad, not love. Like the rest of the book was full of chuckles. And that just really made me like feel awful. This move feels like turkeys voting for Christmas. It's like, you know, in what way can you twist it? that you know animals being bred for consumption is in any way good for animals. It's terrible, terrible. I don't want us to fall into the trap, I don't believe we are, but I don't want us as a movement to fall into the trap of the Daily Mail or or someone like that where we are just going for clickbaity headlines and we're not understanding things. So I think what I would say to Tony Vanelli, if if she is listening, is actually, I imagine a lot of vegans and animal rights folk
01:00:26
Speaker
don't understand the logic of what you're saying. Because I think if you look at Farmkind, it seems to be what she's saying is, well, if you go vegan, that's not actually making much of a difference because you're just one person. Whereas actually, if you're donating to organisations that can lobby government, blah blah blah, blah, blah, then that actually makes a difference. But if you look at the organisations that Farmkind does, gives to, there's six charities that they send their money to, the Humane League, Synergia Animal, Good Food Institute, Vegetarisk Forening, the Fish Welfare Initiative, and the Shrimp war Welfare Project. I mean, the less said about the last two, the better. But like, a lot of what they do
01:01:12
Speaker
is similar to veganism. It's like a cumulative thing. web and and And they'll say things like, well, 15 pounds could save 11 chickens. It's like, no it won't. 15 pounds by itself does not save 11 chickens.
01:01:28
Speaker
It's the cumulative effect of 15 pounds. 100 lots of 15 pounds you know gives you 1,500 pounds. it And that's the same as veganism. One of us being vegan doesn't make a difference. But a million of us being vegan does make a difference. It does. And I think unless I'm completely misunderstanding something, I don't think her argument and it's it's not just her, you know, there's another argument. former vegan activist Tom Norman, who's another co-founder of this organization. I can understand, like Shane says, you work for a long time for animal rights and veganism, and you can be frustrated that lack of progress. So you want to take a more direct approach or a more controversial approach or whatever. Fine. But don't think they're doing a very good job of communicating that because
01:02:17
Speaker
on Farmkind's website, on the Daily Mail summary of this, it doesn't seem to make sense. So if if they are suggesting a different approach for the animal rights movement, I think they need to have another go at communicating it, which is ironic considering her former job. Yeah. I think that we covered story on a few episodes back about certain vegan processed foods changing their marketing to attempt to be less...
01:02:47
Speaker
what could be seen as abrasive to meat eaters, and be more encouraging to meat eaters. And I think in a different article about Tony Vanelli, I think I read somewhere as saying about how, maybe maybe I'm misquoting her, maybe I'm misread, but I'm sure I read something about her saying about vegans having like ah an attitude that did more harm than good because vegans, you know, are seen as, you know, ah you know, just abrasive folks. And that doesn't mean that supporting the meat industry you
01:03:22
Speaker
a good thing. you know like we We can have bigger conversations about, well, how do we approach people without supporting the organisations that she's saying that we support should support. so So here's an angle that she could be taking. Maybe they are saying this at Farmkind and I'm misinterpreting it. But you could say the word vegan is unhelpful. It puts people on the back foot. It alienates people. Don't use vegan. Don't say that you completely avoid all animal exploitation.
01:03:53
Speaker
Instead, we should be trying to persuade everyone to consume animals less. And that would have a bigger and net effect considering almost everyone consuming animal products. I don't necessarily agree with that, but I could get on board with that.
01:04:09
Speaker
But I don't think that's what they're saying. but See, that was kind of how I had taken it, that she was maybe thinking, you know what, people are never going to really go vegan. It's just not going to be the change that we had hoped for. We're not going to get this large enough numbers to go vegan. So why are we fighting people? Just let them eat their meat, but encourage them to donate money to help factory farmed animals because, you know, we're just not making the change that we want. I mean, I'm only going off the Daily Mail story, so I don't know. But I can see that being somebody's attitude. So I could understand that. But then if you look on Farmkind's website, of these six charities, I mean, I just completely dismiss Fish Welfare Initiative and the Shrimp Welfare Project because Sea Spiritsy has completely pointed out the fact that any kind of fish welfare or whatever is is nonsense. Nobody does anything else. So they're a nonsense. The, I'm assuming a European based one, Vegetarist, Forening and the Good Food Institute, both of those, as well as doing stuff to sort of support outcomes for animals, a big part of what they do is encouraging people to eat plant based food. So it's not about improving things for animals at all. It's it's basically ah about to you know saying let's make plant-based food look good, which kind of feels like it's almost against what they're saying. I don't know. I think more better communication from the former. Maybe they sacked her because she wasn't very good at communicating. I don't know. Maybe, maybe. But for fear of going down a really negative path, part of me wonders whether attitudes towards the word vegan have changed so greatly that an article that is as objectively poorly written as this could still be interpreted positive because of attitudes towards the word vegan. To use my city, Manchester, as ah as a case study, you know, where I live If you go back like five years, there was a lot of places five years ago using vegan as a positive buzzword to the point where there were problems that some people use the word vegan incorrectly. So stuff that wasn't vegan here in Manchester, they were just using it because it was the fashion five years ago. It was the trend. It was so cool. All the young folks wanted to be here. And that has changed now. We've got a wonderful business here that's just opened up, uh, in the last couple of years where everything's vegan, but they don't use the word vegan.
01:06:31
Speaker
And that's a change. That's a change that that's the case that like they've got vegan menu. But I've even like queried because they've got things like, oh, in a cheese sauce. And I've been like, well, what does this mean? Like, oh, yeah, yeah, no, no, no, no dairy. And it's like, you know, you've not used like a euphemism like shh. cheese or something like that so it is confusing but you know that that's the the route that they've gone down so yeah like it does make me scratch my head that something as confusingly and seemingly poorly put across as this is written in this way and it makes me think wow is perhaps anti-vegan feeling so high
01:07:14
Speaker
that An article like this could go in such a mainstream publication. Can we also draw attention to the fact that their campaign is called Forget Veganuary, and yet the second word in the headline and three of the first four sentences all include the word veganuary, but you have to wait until the fifth sentence until their charity Farmkind is mentioned. So I think it seems to be doing quite the opposite of making people forget veganuary. Yeah, that is a positive thing. Yeah, yeah. ah we We briefly mentioned ah the Green Party, Zach Polanski, who's a ah vegan ah politician here in Britain.
01:07:51
Speaker
And something that I've been quite impressed by is how um he just takes all the negatives that are thrown at him and just sort of... shines a light on them and just goes, yeah, and uses them to... few Goes out look how ridiculous this is Look how ridiculous this is. And uses it to further the opposing viewpoint, what what he's putting forward as a positive. And I think there's the potential to do the same with this. To just be like... Yeah, you know what? They're saying forget the January. They're saying it because they see the January as a threat and good that they see as threat. Good. That means more power to us. That means that the movement is worthy of criticism. It's enough of a threat that it's worthy of being tried to take down. And it's popular enough that that that people are trying to dismantle it. So hooray for that. Hooray for progress.
01:08:42
Speaker
Well, ah that concludes our very passionate summary of the news. I would like to thank all our listeners for listening. If you've enjoyed the show, we would definitely love it if you could please do us one very small favour.
01:09:00
Speaker
If you've enjoyed today's show, we'd love it if you could take just a few seconds to share it with someone else you think might enjoy it too. We don't have a marketing team or a budget to spend on advertising, so your referrals are the best way of spreading the free Enough of the Falafel Joy further still. And if you haven't already, we'd be really grateful if you could leave us a rating on your podcast player.
01:09:25
Speaker
That will also help the show pop up when people search for vegan or animal rights content online. Thanks for your help.
01:09:37
Speaker
Yes, indeed. Yes, indeed. And um just to reiterate there really that um anything you can do to to spread the show is a great time of the year for people to come across new things, especially vegan things, ah you know, whether it's Veganuary or whether it's just turning over a new leaf as the calendar does as well. So anything that you can do to to spread things is really very much appreciated. We, as well as our usual two shows a week at the moment, we are also re-releasing all of our previous Going Vegan shows. So we've already had Dominic and Nazia's shows um aired this month. And this week you've got Kate and Julie's. And or let me have a look. Who else?
01:10:23
Speaker
Margaret, I think possibly as well, or maybe that's at the start of next week. But anyway, basically you've gotten enough of the falafel podcast in your feed every day of the week in January, apart from Sunday. um So you've got lots of going vegan ones, but we will also be having our timely new exclusive by ah twice a week shows. The next one of which is a vegan talk. That one's coming out on Thursday as per usual. That's the 8th of January. It's with myself and Dominic and Carlos. And we are going to be talking about why vegans shouldn't support greyhound racing. Apologies in advance. I had a very, very bad cold at the time. So I sound like Barry White on, I don't know, it's something that's making his voice even lower. But I think you can just about discern what I'm saying. So Hopefully it's still of value. Anyway, that's enough of the falafel for this episode. Thanks to Dominic and Anthony for your contributions. And thanks again to everyone for listening.
01:11:25
Speaker
This is Shane and you've been listening to Vegan Week from the Enough of the Falafel Collective.
01:11:34
Speaker
This has been an Enough of the Falafel production. We're just a normal bunch of everyday vegans putting our voices out there. The show is hosted by Zencaster.
01:11:45
Speaker
We use music and special effects by zapsplap.com. And sometimes, if you're lucky, at the end of an episode, you'll hear a poem by Mr Dominic Berry. Thanks all for listening and see you next time.
01:12:15
Speaker
This episode may have come to an end, but did you know we've got a whole archive containing all our shows dating back to September 2023? twenty three That is right, Dominic. There's over 100 episodes on there featuring our brilliant range of different guests, people's stories of going vegan, philosophical debates, moral quandaries, and of course...
01:12:36
Speaker
around a dozen news items from around the world each week. So check back on your podcast player to hear previous episodes. And remember to get an alert for each new episode, simply click like or follow and also subscribe to the show.
01:12:51
Speaker
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