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Healing Attachment Wounds, Codependency & Creating Love with Natalia Real | EP 24
78 Plays1 year ago
In this episode I’m joined by Natalia Real, a Somatic Attachment Therapy Practitioner & Love Coach. Together, we explore the profound journey from wounds to wellness, addressing topics like healing your attachment wounds, the 4 different attachment styles, overcoming codependency, and fostering healthy, loving relationships.
We cover:
- Our own attachment styles and how this has shown up in our previous relationships
- The 4 different attachment styles
- The difference between anxious, avoidant and securely attached
- How to navigate rupture in relationships
- Questions to ask yourself if you’re in a relationship
- Why you need to get super honest with yourself
- Healing your attachment style
- Codependency
- Navigating dating
Quick Attachment questionnaire by Diane Poole-Heller's
In depth attachment questionnaire (it's on page 40 of Attached).
LINKS:
- Join Becoming Her, my free 5 day challenge for the women ready to embrace her radiant rebirth and step into your bold, empowered self to receive the desires you’ve been dreaming about.
- Book an Elevate Your Love coaching call with me. For you if you’re ready to unleash your relationship potential and create a relationship transformation roadmap so you can finally get the love, sex and intimacy you want.
- Join the Wild & Free Retreat Waitlist to get the details about my next retreat in Costa Rica.
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IG: @iamstephmorris
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Natalia Real (she/her) is a Somatic Attachment Therapy Practitioner & Love Coach. She helps women heal from insecure attachment wounds, codependency, and self-abandonment so they can co-create healthy, fulfilling relationships. Nat is trauma-informed and uses a holistic mind-body approach that's faster and deeper than talk therapy.
https://www.instagram.com/notesfromalovecoach/
Instagram and TikTok: @notesfromalovecoach
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Transcript
Do you need self-love to find love?
00:00:01
Speaker
A lot of people say you don't need to love yourself before you can find love with someone else, and I disagree. I was a big fan of a silent treatment. Very unhealthy. I didn't know how to feel or process my emotions. I was avoided. Your partner affects your health. It affects whether you're more likely to have a heart attack due to stress. If you're unhappy,
00:00:21
Speaker
and you ask your partner to work on it with you and they say no, why would you stay?
Welcome to Unfiltered Femme
00:00:26
Speaker
Welcome to the Unfiltered Femme podcast. Your new world to get the lowdown on all things pleasure, sexuality, the mysterious female body, dating, relationships and everything you need to know to step into your most unfiltered, unapologetic, empowered and turned on self.
00:00:44
Speaker
I'm Steph Morris, a love, sex, and intimacy coach, and along with some incredibly fabulous guests, I'm here to spill the tea on those topics that are typically hush-hush. The juicy things that you want to know all about that have maybe been a little bit too shy to talk about.
00:01:00
Speaker
Think of me as your fearless guide and partner in crime, creating a space for the unfiltered, the raw, the authentic chats where nothing is off limits and there's no such thing as too much. The Unfiltered Femme podcast is all about breaking down those walls and celebrating what it means to be an unfiltered, feminine being. I hope you're ready for a wild ride. Let's dive right in.
00:01:25
Speaker
Welcome back to the unfiltered firm podcast. I am so excited for the conversation today. I feel like this one is going to resonate with a lot of people. My guest today is Natalia Reel.
Meet Natalia Reel: Healing Insecure Attachments
00:01:37
Speaker
She is a somatic attachment therapy practitioner and love coach who helps women heal from insecure attachment wounds, codependency and self-abandonment so that they can co-create healthy fulfilling relationships.
00:01:50
Speaker
Nat is trauma-informed and uses a holistic mind-body approach that's faster and deeper than talk therapy. Welcome to the podcast, Nat. How are you doing today? Thank you, Steph. I'm great. I'm happy to be here.
00:02:03
Speaker
I'm literally buzzing to dive into this conversation because I know a lot of women in my world have this anxious attachment style and are desiring to create really healthy relationships. So I can't wait to explore more and help people understand what this is about. So I'd love for you to share a little bit. What would you say, in your own words, is a mission that you're on? It's succinctly put, I'm here to
00:02:27
Speaker
help women stop putting up with bullshit and love and claim what they truly desire and give them the tools to go after it. I love that. Yes, no more bullshit. I'd love to know a little bit around your story of what inspired you to getting into this work and into this path.
From Anxious to Secure: Natalia's Personal Journey
00:02:45
Speaker
Yeah, it was hitting rock bottom in love multiple times. There was a time in 2015 and I was like, I can't live like this anymore. Like I go on one or two dates and decide that the guy is the one. And then I'm heartbroken and they leave.
00:03:03
Speaker
And so I hired my first love coach at that time. And that's when I learned about attachment styles. And I was like, oh, I'm a classic anxious attachment style woman dating avoidant men because of daddy issues textbook. And as I started learning and healing, everything changed, right? And it's, I haven't earned secure attachment now. And that took two, three years.
00:03:32
Speaker
And since then I've been refining it because it's really, that's one piece of it, right?
The Power of Communication and Boundaries
00:03:38
Speaker
But then their skills, how do we communicate? How do we fight? How do we set boundaries? How do we ask for what we need? How do we learn to discern people who are healthy for us versus people who are not healthy for us?
00:03:51
Speaker
So it's a long process and everything keeps getting better as I go on it. I love to hear that. And it's super inspiring when women or practitioners in general have gone on this journey, reached that point of no more. And that's inspired you to go on your own journey, but then to share that. So I'd love to know what was the tipping point for you from experiencing going on these dates, being like, this is not the way that I want to be. I want to change something.
00:04:18
Speaker
hiring a love coach, what was the transition point from you doing that work and seeing results yourself that made you go, I want to be sharing this with other humans?
Unexpected Path to Coaching
00:04:28
Speaker
Yeah, I actually wasn't planning on it. And a few years ago, I embarked on a coaching certification program. That was a year long, very intensive. And I was like, Okay, I'm gonna do this for me, because I want to keep healing, right? And I don't know if I want to coach
00:04:45
Speaker
And then when I got to the point where I was coaching my peers, we were coaching each other to practice the tools. I was like, oh my God, this is one of the most rewarding things I've ever done. This is the closest I've ever felt to my life's purpose. This is fulfilling. And that's when I was like, okay, I'm gonna coach. But it was not my plan at first. I love that. Because so much goes into it.
00:05:11
Speaker
So much. It's really cool though that you felt that intuitive nudge to go towards doing a year-long program, but to deepen your own awareness and your own practice and your own growth. I think that's so inspiring for people to hear because so often we can
00:05:28
Speaker
Commence ourselves as reasons as to why we don't need to invest in something that's purely for ourselves without A specific outcome that we're seeking or desiring so that alone is very inspirational I feel like such a nice permission slip for people like you don't have to have a purpose
00:05:43
Speaker
or some big reason for choosing or saying yes to something. If you feel that nudge, then clearly it is for you and you now do this for a living. So it was obviously the right thing to follow that nudge. So I love hearing that so
Understanding Attachment Theory
00:05:58
Speaker
much.
00:05:58
Speaker
I would love for you to share, we've not had anyone on the podcast to explain to the people, what is attachment theory? What is it like in the most basic terms for people? I feel like there's a lot more being shared on social media now around anxious about avoidant people are starting to have a little bit more awareness, but a lot of people like, I don't know where to begin. How do I identify what it is? So what is attachment theory?
00:06:22
Speaker
Essentially when we're growing up, the relationship that we have with our main caretakers wires into our system, how we relate to other people, or at least to our significant other when we are adults. So when we grow up, we come to relationships with this imprint of either, I have to chase,
00:06:44
Speaker
To get love, I have to earn love, or love comes to me easily. I can trust people. Or if you're avoidant, no, you can't trust people. You have to depend on yourself. So however, what you learn as a child stays with you unless you consciously work to change it.
00:07:03
Speaker
or you're very lucky and you just happen to end up in a relationship that's very healing for you and you get to relearn that. But usually it has to be an intentional change. So how do people identify and what are the specific differences in anxious versus avoidant and the other types of attachment styles?
Exploring Adult Attachment Styles
00:07:24
Speaker
Yeah, so therefore anxious is very common among women.
00:07:30
Speaker
So when we feel very insecure, we're always looking for reassurance. If somebody doesn't text us back right away, we might be like, oh my God, is he sick of me? Is he not coming back? Or is he with somebody else? That sort of, it's not a very nice word, but paranoia really can take over.
00:07:48
Speaker
and that I need to be close to this person all the time to feel safe, to feel that they still like me, that they still love me. Then on the other end of the spectrum is avoidance, where instead of finding safety and connection, they find safety and isolation. They find that intimacy and having hard conversations is very challenging. And so they tend to be the ones that run away. There's a combination of anxious and avoidant. My last long-term partner, my previous one was anxious avoidant. It was very challenging.
00:08:17
Speaker
Because it was like, OK, I need some alone time. I need you to go. And then he would get anxious and be like, oh, I'm having an emotional emergency. I need you to come over. And it was this constant roller coaster. That's actually the most complex attachment style. So you really want love, but you're afraid of it. That's the anxious avoidance that inner tug of war. And then something that surprised me a lot is that the forest attachment style is secure. Actually, most people have it.
00:08:42
Speaker
It's supposed to be something like 50 to 60% of the population is securely attached. It sure doesn't feel that way when you're in the dating pool. Yeah. And these people are the most comfortable expressing their feelings, owning up to, yeah, I'm into you. I like you. I love you. I want to be with you, right? But not feeling the need
00:09:02
Speaker
They're not clingy, they're not constantly seeking reassurance, and they're also not running away. They're stable. And those are the people that as if you have an insecure attachment style, and you start working on it, and maybe you start wanting to date someone who's securely attached, you might be like, oh, but this is boring. There's no drama. They tend to be just more easygoing. I wonder if this has happened to you before I did any healing work, because I didn't know about any of this.
00:09:32
Speaker
Whenever I would meet a guy who, now looking back, I'm like, oh, he was securely attached. Someone who was clearly interested in me. I did not have to work for it, just wanted to spend time with me. I was like, that guy's weird. There's something wrong with him. I don't like him. It wasn't familiar.
00:09:50
Speaker
Has that happened to you? It has not happened to me because I've been a relationship woman for my whole life until last year. I've been in relationships for the last 11 years. So I never experienced dating until recently. So this whole dating thing is actually very new to me and it's very interesting being in the dating pool for the first time in my life essentially, but with this awareness.
00:10:14
Speaker
understanding attachment styles and somatic healing and myself and all of these things. I'm like, part of me is it's easier not to know in a way because I'm almost like psychoanalyzing everything of like, where is this person? But yeah, it's definitely interesting. So I, previous relationships, so question on this, and then I'll share more. Do you believe that you can change attachment style from relationship to relationship or is it more set?
00:10:42
Speaker
That's a great question. So typically we have a baseline.
00:10:46
Speaker
but different people can trigger different attachment strategies from us. I remember one of the guys I dated before my current partner would just get on my nerves and I noticed behaving in kind of avoidant ways toward him for a few weeks. But I was just like, oh, this isn't right for me. Oh, this guy's getting on my nerves. And I was like, oh, he's texting me again. Oh, is he calling? But I'm not avoidant. So that can absolutely
Can Attachment Styles Evolve?
00:11:10
Speaker
happen. And then if I am dealing with somebody who leans avoidance,
00:11:14
Speaker
that person will trigger my anxious strategies. So even though I haven't earned secure attachment now, it's every now and then if there's a very strong trigger, I will be like, Oh, interesting. Here's residue from my anxious attachment. What's great is now I'll see it. I'll notice it happening so I can choose how to act.
00:11:37
Speaker
Yeah, which is the powerful piece of self-awareness, right? Knowing, being like, these things still come out. We still have those tendencies and then being able to take a step back and be like, okay, I'm not going to, I'm not going to respond in that way. So when you're saying, are you saying earned secure attachment style? And is that different from secure because you have worked towards it?
00:11:59
Speaker
Exactly. Yeah, when you go from anxious or avoidant or anxious avoidant, and you get to secure, it's called an earned secure attachment. It's funny. Amazing. Yeah. All the work you did. I'm definitely like waving the flag. I would say I'm earned secure. So I'd love to actually dive into a little bit from my previous relationships if you're open to it, because I'm curious about this. I am one of those women who has more avoidant attachment style. And
00:12:29
Speaker
That's definitely not so much in terms of afraid of commitment, but very much had used to be closed off from emotions. I was a big fan of the silent treatment. Like I would do the silent treatment for days. Like my poor partner, he was so patient. Yeah. Like it was very unhealthy. I didn't know how to feel or process my emotions, but let's go back to my first relationship.
00:12:49
Speaker
Looking back at the start, I was avoidant. So I think that's like my baseline is the avoidant. And then there was a switch. There was like a switch that flipped. And he then became avoidant and I became anxious. It was probably like six months to a year into the relationship. I can remember it when I started to feel like
00:13:11
Speaker
Yeah, it completely flip-flopped and I became really anxious in that relationship and he became more invoident. And that was the way that it was for the next, we were together for four years. So how do we analyze that? Is that possible? Does that mean that I was anxious avoided? Or is that just that relationship and the dynamic with him was like bringing out different tendencies that were already there? My guess would be that was that relationship. Can I ask how old you were? Yeah, I was 20 when we met.
00:13:40
Speaker
Yeah, my guess would be that it was that relationship. When I think back to my first relationships that were not serious when I was 13, 14, 15, 16, I was a player. Okay, I have a boyfriend I'm gonna make out with him. You're like, all right, I'm tired of him. Okay, it's over. Let's go to the next one. And then sometime around 20 also, I realized, oh, I'm anxious as hell now. I didn't have the language for it.
00:14:09
Speaker
And yeah, I wonder if there's something about the seriousness of your relationship. Once you notice that it got serious, you're past the honeymoon phase. Shit got real. Then you might've been triggered into the dynamics of childhood being subconsciously reminded of.
00:14:30
Speaker
Yeah. It's interesting too, because with that relationship, I moved to Australia to be with him, basically. So actually was a bit long distance at first. So I almost wonder if that there's like circumstantial pieces too, that can affect it because my whole life was wrapped up with him. So I'm like, does that make sense? Then that it would almost trigger that anxiousness because it's not just a relationship. It was like my life that I was so.
00:14:54
Speaker
attached and then almost became codependent in that dynamic with him for my whole life. 100%. Yeah, you left behind your support system. You left behind all your anchors, right? Suddenly you were dependent on him and if he wasn't responding in a way that made you feel safe and held and supported, it makes a difference that your system would be like, we need reassurance. This is really scary, right? We don't have our friends and family and community here.
00:15:23
Speaker
Yeah. Oh, I'm loving this. This is so interesting because I'm doing such reflection at this stage of my life. I'm seven months post-separation from my ex-partner. And so I'm doing a lot of reflection and working on myself around relationships and trying to dissect like, what are the past relationship patterns from these two relationships? So there's like perfect timing for me because I'm like, this is just fascinating too.
00:15:47
Speaker
reflect back and see different habits and tendencies and behavior that was showed up. So then going into my previous relationship, which was amazing in so many ways, I was so avoidant. So again, my tendency at the start was avoidant. I'm like dismissive. It's not that serious. Being pursued starts like my thing is I get heavily pursued by people. And I think as in the start, they're more anxious. And then they're like, Oh, this is a challenge though. Like I'm gonna
00:16:16
Speaker
I'm gonna conquer her and then I eventually I'm like okay yes but in that relationship very much avoiding I never displayed any anxious tendencies and my ex was a little bit more on the anxious side and I can see very clearly we were committed very quickly again I did move from one side of the world to the other to be with him which is apparently what I do
00:16:40
Speaker
So I'm like, I'm not moving again, warning to my future partner, I'm not moving countries. But I'm curious, that's very interesting to me. So I'm not that avoiding, because that's obviously very big commitment. But in terms of like the dynamic of communication and sharing, and I would have to process alone, I would run away, I couldn't co
00:16:59
Speaker
regulate like in that same situation until years later when I discovered about attachment styles and was like, oh shit. So I thought that's interesting how different relationships can bring out different tendencies and people. Yeah, definitely. If he was anxious and he maybe happened to be clingy or wanted too much of your time or anything like that, I could see how that would bring out the avoidance strategy in you.
00:17:28
Speaker
So how can people really clearly identify what attachment style they have?
Identifying Your Attachment Style
00:17:34
Speaker
Is there a quiz that they can do? Is it questions that they can ask themselves? Is it some journal prompts? Is it working with a coach? What do you recommend so that people can be really clear about what style of attachment they have?
00:17:48
Speaker
You can definitely take a quiz. I would look for one by someone like, for example, Diane Poole Heller is one of the world experts on attachment, and she has a quiz on her website. Or if you buy a book on attachment theory, sometimes it will have a quiz in there. I would go with that, because there's so many nuances to it. In the book Attached by Amir Levine, he doesn't talk about the anxious avoidant attachment style, but there's a link in there. I can find it if you want it for the show notes. There's a link to it first.
00:18:17
Speaker
That's very thorough and it's great because you can create an account and save it and take it now and then take it like in one year and a year later and see your progress.
00:18:29
Speaker
I got to see for myself. And it also breaks it down into what's your attachment style with your mother or primary female caregiver versus father or primary male, right? Romantically and with your friends. And you may see that it's different depending on who you're dealing with because the dynamics are totally different. Wow.
00:18:49
Speaker
Yeah, I would love that, Link. I'm gonna do that myself after this and see where are we at, hopefully, in the unsecure bracket. Attached was one of the first books that I read on attachment theory, and I think it's a little bit confusing if you dive deeper into it, the fact that he doesn't really talk about the anxious avoidance, he's just simplifying it, which I think is good for people to understand. Obviously, it's a pretty complex topic in system that
00:19:16
Speaker
is very simplified for people to understand. So how can people work to become more secure this and secure badge?
Achieving Secure Attachment
00:19:28
Speaker
Oh, what a question. That's great. I think it's going to depend a little bit on where what your starting point is.
00:19:37
Speaker
But the common theme for everyone is we're looking for safety, right? If you're avoidant, safety for you is outside the relationship and with yourself. If you're anxious, it's with somebody else. And in the end, you have to start finding safety in yourself first. A lot of people say you don't need to love yourself before you can find love with someone else and
00:20:00
Speaker
I disagree. It's been my experience and that a lot of clients that if you don't have that safety within yourself and that appreciation and care and respect for yourself, it's extremely difficult to try to get it from somebody else because either you won't recognize it when you see it or
00:20:17
Speaker
they will give it to you, but it will feel so foreign to you because you're not used to what love feels like, what peace feels like, what safety feels like, that you'll push it away. Because your nervous system will be like, what is this? This isn't what's familiar. This is not what feels safe. Even if what feels safe is unhealthy, right? If what feels safe
00:20:35
Speaker
is I have to chase people. I am dismissed. I am disrespected. If that's what feels safe, AKA, familiar to you, that's what you will chase. So you have to change that baseline before you will use a partner who is really healthy for you. So what you attract changes, but I think what's even more important is who you choose. Because if you keep attracting people who are a bad fit, but you keep saying, no, thank you, universe. I'm going to send this back. Send me someone who's more like this.
00:21:03
Speaker
And it doesn't matter who you attract. You'll find someone who's good for you and you'll choose them.
00:21:08
Speaker
I think that's really insightful and powerful for people. So I'm curious, do you believe that people can have happy and healthy relationships while they are still displaying anxious avoidant or anxious avoidant tendencies or attachment styles?
Challenges of Insecure Attachment in Relationships
00:21:25
Speaker
It's so hard when it's rooted in what happened to you in childhood, right? There can be so much fear. If I tell this person what I really want, he's going to leave me.
00:21:36
Speaker
So how do we learn what is healthy versus what we've been doing, right? Like unlearn. I had to unlearn a lot of what love was, pretty much everything. Back at my relationships at my childhood, my first coach was like, what did you learn about love? What is, what does love look like? And I was like, there's drama, there's a lot of fights, like all this stuff. And I had to scrap all of that and start from zero.
00:22:01
Speaker
It's really beautiful, deep work. It's heart-wrenching, but then you get out the other side and there's light and you can see more clean. You don't feel like you're stuck between a rock and a hard place anymore. But I think if you're actively working on it, you have a partner who's on board, right? Maybe they're helping you or they're working on it with you if they're all so insecurely attached, then you can make progress together. Working on it is get a book and practice what's in it, apply it.
00:22:30
Speaker
or hire a professional if you can to dive really deep and take years off of your healing journey. Are you actively trying to do things different? And if you're both committed to that, I think that's pretty healthy. So what do people do if there is someone listening to this and they can identify at least somewhat from this conversation and they're curious to explore more, that they have one type of attachment style and their partner has another?
00:22:55
Speaker
And they're like, okay, I want to get the books, I want to do the exploration, I want to do the healing with my partner. Any advice you have for how they can enroll their partner in doing that work with them? Yeah. Your partner has to want to. You know, if you're begging your partner to do it, they might
00:23:20
Speaker
They might do it, but not be fully in it. Right. So I think be really transparent. Like I care about you. I care about this relationship. And I really think that to have a relationship where we both feel fulfilled, we have to stop with this drama. We have to learn a better way to talk to each other. So we both feel heard and we both feel safe and we both feel loved. Do you want to do that with me?
00:23:51
Speaker
And the answer might question. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, and even if like with my earned secure attachment, right. And my partner actually learned he also has an earned secure attachment. I thought he was securely attached, but he actually got through a lot of stuff from his childhood. We ran into a big rupture some weeks ago. And I had to be like, if we're going to stay together, I need you to go address this with somebody.
00:24:20
Speaker
I'll help you find someone, but you have to do this. Will you do this? And he said, yes, I will. And then we decided to actually take couples coaching sessions together. So we started doing that. And we've been together for a few years.
00:24:35
Speaker
So it's not even a one-time thing, right? If you want to be with someone for the rest of your life, things happen. And sometimes we need some, and I think one of the most important, most supportive things you can do to have a healthy relationship that lasts is choose someone who wants to grow with you. Choose someone who wants to do this work with you, not someone who's, Oh, inner work, whatever. Oof. What happens when you run into a problem? Yeah. Shit hits the fan.
00:25:03
Speaker
What would you say to people? And I'm asking this question because I know a lot of people right now who are in this position. Let's talk about women specifically who are in a relationship and they want to ask their partner, will you do this work with me? And they know the answer is no. What do they do? You have to make a decision where your needs are not getting met. Where you have a partner who could work toward having a better relationship with you, but chooses not to. Who doesn't put their relationship first.
00:25:33
Speaker
Right? Or do you want someone who's your actual team member, your actual partner, someone with whom you don't have to carry the whole relationship by yourself? I think I'm going to go. What happens otherwise, if you're unhappy and you ask your partner to work on it with you and they say no,
00:25:52
Speaker
Why would you stay? It sounds so simple, doesn't it? When we're looking at it from the outside perspective. And I love that share and the questions that you're asking because it's helpful for people to remember that if their partner is not actively working on the relationship, they are not choosing to. It's not because of
00:26:14
Speaker
them so stressed out at work, or they have all these things on, I think we're so easy to dismiss and excuse people's reasons as to why they're not choosing to prioritize the relationship, but it is still a choice. And we can't
00:26:26
Speaker
allow that kind of to happen, a lot of people do, but it's not how we have to live and when your needs are not being met.
Impact of Partners on Well-being
00:26:32
Speaker
So everyone having honest conversation with yourself, are your needs really being met in relationship? Because I'm seeing a lot of people settling in relationships that aren't truly meeting their needs and fulfilling them and not bringing them happiness, but they're too afraid to be really honest with themselves and to ask these kinds of questions. So hopefully this conversation can
00:26:50
Speaker
shine a light and allow people to be honest with themselves about where they're at in relationships. It's the most important relationship that we have. You're spending a lot of time with that person, sleeping in the bed with that person. That's going to impact your health and overall happiness and success and fulfillment in life. Yeah. Yeah. There are all these studies I read about last year about how your partner affects your health. It affects whether you're more likely to have a heart attack.
00:27:15
Speaker
due to stress, if you're gonna die sooner because of stress, like we're together, our systems co-regulate and your baseline changes and you become more like your partner and they become more like you. So it affects your health, your income level, everything. That is something that I did not know until probably even like a year or so ago, what I really realized on myself
00:27:41
Speaker
like in the partnership that I was in, how his health and his state and his nervous system was massively dysregulating mine. And it's literally impossible to sleep in the same bed as someone and to not attune to that nervous system and to pick up.
00:27:58
Speaker
what they're feeling essentially. And this is why I love sleeping with my dogs now because I get that beautiful little tumour. I'm like, come regulate me puppies, give me that unconditional love, get me into this high vibrational state of being. And being really aware of that, I think is really important and powerful. I know so many people aren't though, and they don't realise the impact that's having and how much it could potentially be holding them back. And
00:28:24
Speaker
affecting their longevity and health. It's just wild. So it is a very important, very important decision to be making. So thank you for sharing that. I'm curious if you're open to sharing with your previous relationship where you've had to make that hard decision. What was the signals from your body or the sign that you received or that point where you were like, okay, no more. This is it for me. Yeah, it was
00:28:54
Speaker
Hmm. Yeah, I can speak to a couple of relationships if that's helpful with the anxious avoidant guy. We're still friends. His name is Steve. He's a good guy. I was so stressed out that I was getting physically sick. I would keep getting colds and I was just
00:29:16
Speaker
I was taking all these herbs for anxiety, right? Like, be like, rhodiola and, you know, lemon balm and all these, I was like, I can't, like every time he would reach out, it was like, my body would kind of clench up. But the clear sign for me was that I was getting sick. And I was like, I can't fight with you anymore. I keep getting sick. Like, this doesn't work for me. And it actually coincided with my attachment healing.
00:29:44
Speaker
because I was anxious when I met him, but I was already working with a love coach. And then by the time I ended things, I was already testing on the quizzes secure. And so I was a lot more clear on what I deserved, a lot more clear on how I wanted to feel. I wasn't super sure. It was pretty early on in my journey, but I was still like, this sucks. This doesn't work. And I remember after I broke things off,
00:30:12
Speaker
For a month, I would come home from work and just be sitting in my living room crying. And I was like, this is still better than being with him. And with another ex-partner, it was an on again, off again. And when we got back together the last time, I was like, I need these three things from you if we're going to be together because I was very
00:30:32
Speaker
unhappy with those things and he promised to do those three things and one by one he broke the promises and when he broke the third one I was like even as codependent as I was like oh it was okay that he broke one promise I didn't love that he broke the second one but when he broke the third I was like
00:30:49
Speaker
This is intensely disrespectful. This is not okay. I think that's another really big part of why we should all try to heal our attachment styles if they're not secure, because when they're insecure, we're a lot more likely, especially if you're codependent, to put up with miss mild treatment, right?
00:31:09
Speaker
It's like you don't see it, like you're a frog in hot water. But when you are securely attached, you're like, no, I know what I'm worth. No, I know this is what I want. And you get to know yourself better, especially if you've earned it because you've done so much work.
00:31:24
Speaker
that you start noticing like, oh, this feels bad in my body. You start noticing more shifts within you of dysregulation and more signs of them. Now my body is my compass. So there's a lot of different ways to know I would say depending on what you have access to at the time. What do you think?
00:31:42
Speaker
Love the, I love it and I totally agree. The body is always speaking to you and. Imitation for people to really listen to what are those physical symptoms that keep coming up that you're putting down to something else that you're not actually correlating that it could be the relationship that is so stressful and the lack of certainty and the lack of having your needs met or lack of safety.
00:32:08
Speaker
Constant stress is literally making you sick and you're not correlating it. Again, people in their own timeline, cause I know we're pretty good at lying to ourselves and being in denial. Speaking from personal experience here multiple times throughout my life, it's just easy. It's easier to deny until we're ready to face the truth. And I think that's, we have the connection to our body. It does make it that little bit easier because it's less.
00:32:33
Speaker
mind analyzing, and it really is gets to a point where you just can't ignore the information and the symptoms that your body is sending you. So thank you for sharing that. I'd love for you to share a little bit around how someone can identify
00:32:47
Speaker
what codependency can look
Recognizing Codependency
00:32:50
Speaker
like. I think there are some ways that some people might think it's really only extreme cases, but I think that codependency can show up in more subtle ways that people maybe aren't seeing when they're in it. So how can someone identify whether their relationship is codependent and then going into new dynamics as well, perhaps moving into that part of the conversation, warning flags to look out for whether you're in a relationship or seeking one.
00:33:15
Speaker
Yeah, one thing I did with that off again, on again partner, and this was over 10 years ago, when I met him, I was going to hot yoga, I was going to martial arts classes. And after we started dating, I just, I stopped doing all that just to spend all my free time with him. It was a red flag carnival, right?
00:33:37
Speaker
and I had no idea. So it's losing your sense of self. What are you doing where you're giving up what's important to you? The things that you enjoy. You're making them less important and you're prioritizing this relationship with one single person out of eight billion. That's not healthy no matter what. Then also there's different schools of thought. There's a school of thought that's like
00:34:02
Speaker
You should be happy no matter how other people around you are feeling, right? I don't believe in that anymore, but I think it's not black or white. If your partner is angry at you, if your partner lost their job and is upset or lost someone they love and they're grieving,
00:34:22
Speaker
it makes sense that you're going to feel their pain, right? And it's going to affect you greatly, especially if it's like you where you're with someone for over a decade, such a long time. But we have to be discerning of that distinction between ourself and our partner, right? And that one has a lot of gray and a lot of nuance in it. But it's
00:34:46
Speaker
Make sure you're not being swept away by this other person, by their feelings, by what they're going through. Of course it's going to affect you.
00:34:54
Speaker
but don't fall into it like you and them are merged, right? You should be interdependent. Yeah, you affect each other, you support each other, you help each other, but not codependent. You can't live without them. But it's getting really dramatic and really intense. I would invite you to question that. Are you prioritizing what's important to you still? How are your relationships looking outside of this romantic relationship?
00:35:22
Speaker
What about your heart and your work? Are you abandoning? And a lot of people do this. They abandon their friends when they start dating someone. It kills me. And part of it is not our fault. It's our culture. Western culture just prioritizes romantic love over all other types of love. And that's not healthy, actually. That's not a good thing.
00:35:50
Speaker
so agree with that and I'm so grateful that I'm in a phase of life where I'm obsessed with the platonic friendships I have. My connections with other humans are so deeply intimate and loving and incredible and fill me up so much and I definitely
00:36:09
Speaker
Okay, so it's interesting. So looking back, I can see that I experienced codependency in both my previous relationships, but I was not aware. The first one is obvious to me, but the second one, the most recent one, this wasn't obvious to me, that obvious to me at the time, even though there were clear signs. But so for instance, because I moved countries to be with him, I didn't have any friend base. I moved countries twice for both men. I didn't have friend base. I didn't have any of those things. So my reasoning was, I'm giving up.
00:36:38
Speaker
the friends I'm giving up that it was like, I didn't have that established. So that kind of became the status quo in my life. So it's almost like it wasn't supposed to be codependent. But naturally, when you don't have a lot of friends in your space, you end up spending all of your time with one person, it's almost can that then develop and become the normal?
Maintaining Independence in Relationships
00:36:58
Speaker
Even though you don't intend it to be? Does that make sense? Yeah, that's such a tricky situation, right? It's like your baseline is gone. Yeah. And
00:37:08
Speaker
and you have to put all this energy into creating new friendships and creating a new community. You're so enamored with your new person. So I can see how that was so difficult and how you didn't see it coming. Yeah, wild. But yeah, I think that's what's really shown me since the separation. I'm like putting more than ever into my friendships and relationships that I have. Obviously, I'm a single woman now. And it's exciting to know that going forward,
00:37:37
Speaker
There'll be a very clear indicator of, okay, let's keep that baseline. But my question for you is how do people navigate that when they are entering this new relationship and you meet the person and you're obsessed with them and you're like, we want to spend all our time together. We're having like.
00:37:54
Speaker
people are like, we have 12 hour long dates and we're seeing each other three to four times a week. How does that not become codependent? What is the best optimal way of navigating that? So you're not falling into that status quo of codependency really early on. I'm going to invite those people to restructure how they date. So if you're seeing someone four times a week, I would say that's too much. And remember that this is a new person.
00:38:23
Speaker
You don't know them. Only time shows you who someone is. You need to see what they're like when they're angry. What they're like when they feel rejected. When they feel defeated. When that takes time. How do they treat other people? Service workers. If you're just starting out, I would say maybe see them once or twice a week. It helps you keep your wits about you. And remember, this is a person I don't know. This is a stranger. Literally.
00:38:54
Speaker
especially if we come from that background of being codependent, we're very used to letting our minds fill in the gaps.
00:39:03
Speaker
We look up their Instagram, we go on two dates, and then it's, oh yeah, I'm sure we have all these things in common, and oh my god, I'm sick. But yeah, I'm sure if I told him he would bring me soup and he would be the best caretaker, you don't know. We don't even notice that we're making up these stories. And the best way I know how to stop the stories in their tracks is to slow things down.
00:39:25
Speaker
It's gonna be super fucking uncomfortable, right? Because you want to see them all the time because you have all these dopamine hits happening whenever you see each other.
00:39:35
Speaker
And the oxytocin that feels so good when you're hugging, when you're making out, when you're having sex. But they're all chemicals. The reality is, who is this person? We don't know. And the only way we're not going to get swept up in it is if we slow it down. We have to stop texting all day long. We have to stop canceling plants with our friends to go on these dates.
00:39:58
Speaker
practice being like, okay, write down. Be like, I want to see this person twice a week maximum. And I don't want to spend more than, I don't know.
00:40:06
Speaker
15 minutes, 30 minutes, texting them per day. Just decide what sounds reasonable and sane to you. That's an example of that, that worked for me. I learned that from my first love coach. She was like, you have to slow all this down and settle these things. I didn't like it at all, but it makes a lot of sense. And I'm a very sex positive person. I'm not going to tell you to not sleep with them, but if you can wait,
00:40:32
Speaker
See how long you can wait and see if... Let's see. With my partner, my current partner, I really wanted to wait because I was looking for something serious and I was like, I don't want to get swept up in anything. I think I said six dates. That was a few weeks, like a month. And I've had long-term partners where we had sex on the first date. That's fine.
00:40:52
Speaker
I'm not against that. But if you have that tendency to get swept, if you have an anxious attachment, if you tend to be codependent, just know that it's going to be a lot harder for you to discern what's really going on if you have all those hormones in your system from sex and from spending a million hours with them all the time.
00:41:12
Speaker
literally as you're sharing this, not the sex part because I have more avoidant tendencies. I'm like, I'm fine. I can keep the separation there. But as you're sharing like the healthy style of dating, I'm literally thinking, I know that if I met an amazing dream guy, I'd be like, I want to spend every day with him.
00:41:28
Speaker
So I'm like, this is like good notes to me taking notes here. Once I'm ready and attract that amazing guy that I feel like I want to get to know more and spend more time with, it will be a test for me because I know all of this stuff and yet it's still, we're still humans and we still have our tendencies and want to hang out with someone and spend all of our time with them. So I'm like, note to self, Stephanie, to remember this.
00:41:55
Speaker
when that time rises. It's hard though, isn't it? When you get really excited, you want to be with someone. So how long are you saying recommended to have around two days a week for how long into that dynamic? I would say as long as you can, a few months. There's a timeline that's popular in the attachment healing and relationship coaching world, and that's 90 days.
00:42:18
Speaker
that if somebody is lying to you, if somebody's putting up a facade, a lot of people cannot do it for more than 90 days. There are folks who do that and lead double lives and people find out a year later, decades later, but on average, it's like the first 90 days, consider it a trial period. Let's see who's still showing up after 90 days. Love that. And so you're saying no making any big commitments, especially in the first 90 days as well.
00:42:47
Speaker
No, no, no, no, I mean, like, you're so precious. They have to earn you. They have to earn your commitment. They have to earn you moving in there. They have to earn your energy. You shouldn't just give it away to anyone. You're not passing somebody a napkin. It's you. You know what I mean?
00:43:14
Speaker
And that comes back to doing healing work, because after you do healing work, you're like, God damn it. Yeah, I am amazing. Oh my God. What was I doing? No, I'm incredible. I'm sexy as fuck, right? But when we have low self-worth, which is often tied to insecure attachment, then we're like, I'll take what I can get. What if nobody else wants to date me?
00:43:37
Speaker
Or what if I don't sleep with him now? Maybe he won't want to go out with me again. I used to think that I used to think if I sleep with this guy soon, he's going to move on to the next person. Let him. Exactly. Good fucking riddance. Are you kidding me? Oh, my God. Now, when I met my partner before we even had sex, he gave me a full body massage. He was coming over.
00:44:03
Speaker
paint a bookcase, which basically meant he was doing it and I was looking. He just wanted to please me and cherish me and worship my body, right? Which is actually what I was looking for. And it wasn't like he was doing it to his own detriment. He was very happy about it. And I was giving him things back.
00:44:20
Speaker
but it's look for someone who puts in the effort, someone who's really respectful, who's not trying to push you into anything and let them show you who they are. Let them earn you. 100%. How do people navigate this currently for the single folks? How do you navigate this in the...
00:44:38
Speaker
URL world of dating apps. This is very difficult to discern people's energy and people's attachment styles from an online dating app. What is your advice for people there?
Using Dating Apps to Gauge Attachment Styles
00:44:51
Speaker
Or do you have to just, once you meet them in person, that's when you're going to get those insights? No, I don't like to wait. Every guy I was going to go on a date with, I would send him a link to an attachment style quiz and ask him to take it if he didn't know. No way. Oh yeah.
00:45:07
Speaker
And there were a few avoidant ones that I was like, it's been so nice getting to know you. It's not going to work out. I'm not interested in dating people, then avoid an attachment style. Thank you. Did these guys actually do it? What was their response when you're sending them this attachments quiz? This is amazing. They were like, no, what do you mean? No.
00:45:28
Speaker
Like they wanted me to give them a chance. And I was like, no, thank you. Were they all up for doing the quiz or were some people just, no, I'm not going to even do it.
00:45:37
Speaker
Every now and then there was someone who was not interested, and I was like, okay, great, it's not gonna work out. If you're not open to trying new things, to learning more about yourself, I'm looking for someone who wants to learn a lot about me, a lot about themselves, is interested in psychology, and wants to always be improving. So that already tells, you're saving me time, thank you so much.
00:45:59
Speaker
That's fucking genius. I love this so much. Yes. Okay. That was actually genius. That's like giving me answers here because I feel like, especially as a woman who has done so much of this work, and this is obviously my life and the work that I do not attachment specifically, but somatic work, work around sexuality, work around.
00:46:19
Speaker
intimacy and relationships. I have been wondering about this dynamic on the apps. So I'm like, this is great. We'll be doing this. I need somebody that's going to work on themselves if they're not, like not interested whatsoever. So if you're not going to take the quiz, we're not going on a date. I love it. What do people, like the average person, do you think that's fine for like everyday person who doesn't work in this field to just be like, do this quiz. How do you request that?
00:46:48
Speaker
Well, before I like to ask the big questions before going on a first date, because I see that as a big investment of my time and my energy. So I would be like, you know, who did you vote for in the last election? Where do you stand on these political issues? What's your attachment? What's your sign? And if
00:47:09
Speaker
I would think if somebody doesn't know what their attachment style is, they might be like, oh, can you tell me about that? And I would tell them, or if they just said, no, I don't know what it is, I would be like, would you mind taking this quiz to find out? And most of them were like, yeah, sure. And then they would just send me a screenshot of their result. I don't think it's a big deal at all. I think it's a very reasonable question.
00:47:31
Speaker
It, especially if you use a simpler quiz, it takes five minutes. And if somebody is genuinely interested in getting to know you and wants to go on a date with you, they'll be more than happy to do that. Setting the standard. I think it's a really great way, a really great way of having someone show you who they are before you've met them. Genius. I love this. This is amazing.
00:47:52
Speaker
Awesome. Yeah. There's a lot of people who are like, Oh, I'm going to wait until like date three to ask these big questions. The way I look at it is like, why you could have just wasted hours and hours of your time texting with them, phone calls, dates.
00:48:08
Speaker
when you were just hoping that they aligned with you with certain very specific values or compatibility traits. Just be discerning what are the things that are most important to you. I was like, I want someone who's not avoidantly or anxious, avoidantly attached because that's triggering for me and I don't want to deal with that.
00:48:26
Speaker
political values and that's it to start. So decide what's important to you and you can ask for it. Love it. This is amazing. So much value. Is there anything to cap off this conversation that you feel like you want to add, that you want to share for people who are in relationships or dating, any final nuggets that we didn't get to? Yeah, I would say adding on a little bit to what we were just talking about. For example, there was a guy who was like, I'm avoidantly attached, but I'm going to therapy and I'm working on it.
00:48:56
Speaker
So maybe that's enough for you. At the time for me, I was like, okay, great. That works for me, you know? But before we even got to the first date, he already started displaying avoidant tendencies. And I was like, okay, not going to work for me. Thank you. But, you know, decide where you're at. Because maybe if, for example, you're anxiously attached and have not done any work on it, it might not be very fair to then be like, I'm only going to date a securely attached person. Yeah.
00:49:25
Speaker
Right? So maybe taking that time to sit with it and be like, you know, where am I in my process? Do I want to make any improvements or changes? Who do I want to attract? Kind of look at it more holistically and more thought because a lot of people go into dating and they're not, they're just like, I just want to see what's out there. I don't know what I want. And it's wasting everybody's time.
00:49:50
Speaker
So I would say if you can be more thoughtful about it, that's going to benefit you and everyone you come across as well. It's just a way to bring more kindness and respect into the dating space with so many people saying, oh, dating is horrible. We're all the same people. What can we do to bring more kindness and respect into the process? Hmm. I love that. I love that approach. And it's.
00:50:13
Speaker
creating your impact on the dating space versus being part of the problem of just complaining or going into the space, not knowing what you want, wasting other people's time. Cause the ripple effect of that on the whole dating pool in general is probably a net negative versus a net positive. So I really love that approach. And I'm curious from the example you were just sharing around the guy who displayed avoidant tendencies before you even went on a date. What were some of those signs or tendencies that he displayed? I think it was something like he said, he,
00:50:42
Speaker
was going on a trip and he was going to get back to me, I don't know, in a couple of weeks or a week or something. And then I next heard from him like a month later. And I was like, that's not going to work for me. I'm looking for someone who does what he says he's going to do. Look at the best things you can look for when actions match words. That's a fantastic, wonderful quality and a partner that you need to have someone you can rely on. 100%.
00:51:06
Speaker
Wow. So juicy. This has been so jam-packed. I have got so much value personally from this conversation as well. I've actually loved it so much. Thank you for sharing. I would love to cap this off. I have three questions that I always like to ask my guests who come on to the podcast.
00:51:25
Speaker
So I'm going to ask these to you. I would love to know, what are you celebrating right now? I'm celebrating that I'm reorganizing a lot in my life this year. And I just started work with a couple of coaches, kind of going all in for the next several months.
00:51:42
Speaker
And the courage that it takes to do that, a lot of ugly crying, a lot of restructuring things that aren't working. And rather than settling, I'm like, no, I'm not settling. What if this is my one life, right? I'd like to believe in reincarnation, but I don't know. If this is my one life, I want to do everything I can to be happy in this life. So I'm celebrating that.
00:52:02
Speaker
Hmm. I love that. Thank you for sharing. It's really inspiring to hear that even when you are coaches or therapists or these kinds of things, it's still important to be investing in this area. So I love this. I'm celebrating you as well. Thank you for sharing. What is something that is bringing you pleasure right now? Turning off the TV earlier.
00:52:25
Speaker
doing yoga to unwind, going to bed, reading a book and getting extra sleep. Right there with you. Right there with you. I absolutely love that. And my final question is, if there were one thing that every human on the planet could know or experience, what would you wish for that to be?
00:52:45
Speaker
I wish everyone could experience having someone else delight in you. Not everybody gets that. If we're lucky, we get it from our parents when we're little. They also, we get that in adulthood, right? I get that from my partner and he gets it from me, but I haven't gotten it from every partner. So maybe you get it from friends if you're lucky, but you don't get it from everyone. And I know people who have never gotten it from anyone. And that breaks my heart.
00:53:14
Speaker
I hope everyone gets to experience that and appreciates how valuable it is, how special. I love that so much, honestly. What a way to cap off this episode and for people to take that nugget with them. Is that something that you delight someone else and you receive that from someone else? Oh, so good. So good. I love it so much. Thank you for this amazing conversation that I love it so much. I would love for you to share.