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From Military Life to Civilian Employment – a conversation with David Nordel
23 Plays9 days ago
David Nordel, Retired AF Command Chief Master Sgt is the founder of Max Fab Consulting, a specialist in supporting employers to being Veteran ready.
With their Veteran READY Certification and Training Program Max Fab assists employers to create a vibrant and inclusive veteran-READY culture that attracts and retaining highly skilled veteran employees.
In this episode of the Abeceder podcast The Independent Minds David explains to host Michael Millward the challenges that many veterans face when transferring to civilian employment and what employers can do to support veterans through that process.
David shares his personal experiences and reflects on the reality that whilst society thanks veterans for their service it can still be difficult to get a job.
Sources of help and support for veterans
- UK Armed Forces Covenant: guidance and support
- UK Career Transition Partnership
- UK Royal British Legion
- USA US Department of Veteran Affairs
- USA Jobs for Veterans
- USA USA Cares
The Independent Minds is made on Zencastr.
Zencastr is the all-in-one podcasting platform, on which you can create your podcast in one place and then distribute it to the major platforms.
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Find out more about both Michael Millward and David Nordel at Abeceder.co.uk
Travel
David is based in Billings, Montana USA.
The Ultimate Travel Club, offers trade prices on travel to Montana and everywhere else.r You can become a member at a discounted price by using my offer code ABEC79 when you join-up.
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Transcript
00:00:05
Speaker
Made on Zencaster.
Introduction to The Independent Minds Podcast
00:00:06
Speaker
Hello and welcome to The Independent Minds, a series of conversations between abecida and people who think outside the box about how work works, with the aim of creating better workplace experiences for everyone.
00:00:22
Speaker
I'm your host, Michael Millward, the managing director of Abecedah.
Transition from Military Service: Challenges and Opportunities
00:00:26
Speaker
Today, I'm going to be talking about the employment after military service with David Nordell from MaxFab Consulting. David is a specialist in helping veterans transfer from military life to civilian employment.
00:00:42
Speaker
As the jingle at the start of this podcast says, the independent minds is made on Zencaster.
The Role of Technology in Podcasting
00:00:47
Speaker
Zencaster is the all-in-one podcasting platform that just makes making content so easy. If you would like to try podcasting using Zencaster, visit zencaster dot.com forward slash pricing and use my offer code ABACEDA. All the details are in the description.
00:01:06
Speaker
Now that I have told you how wonderful Zencaster is for making podcasts, we should make one. One that will be well worth listening to, liking, downloading and subscribing to. As with every episode of The Independent Minds, we won't be telling you what to think, but we are hoping to make you think.
David Nordell's Military Background and Transition Story
00:01:25
Speaker
Today, my guest independent mind is David Nordell, a military transition coach, which means that he helps veterans move from military life to civilian employment. David is joining me from Billings, Montana, USA. The very name of it makes me think about the the Wild West.
00:01:45
Speaker
But Montana is not somewhere I have visited, but it is, I believe, one of the big sky states with big horizons. So visiting is definitely on my to-do list.
00:01:57
Speaker
When I do arrange that trip, I will make my travel arrangements with the ultimate travel club, because that is where I can access trade prices on flights, hotels, trains, and holidays, and all sorts of other travel related purchases. You can as well, if you remember, there is a link and a membership discount code in the description. Now it is time to make an episode of The Independent Minds. Hello, David. Michael, thanks for having me on.
00:02:25
Speaker
It's a great pleasure. I really am looking for forward to having a conversation with someone who's as interested in the transition from military life to civilian employment as I am. It's a really important issue. But before we get into it, please could you give it give me a little bit of your background and what led to you being interested? Sure. So I went in the American military at 19 years old and I served 30 years, six months and 24 days to be exact. That took me from, you know, entry level, you know, in our world, a private or airman, all the way to being the command chief and the command chief of
00:03:05
Speaker
all of the intercontinental ballistic missiles in and the United States. So a lot of people, a lot of responsibility and you know well prepared to do that. And that sounds like a long time. I went in in 1984. I came out in 2014. I was involved at some level with probably every conflict that the United States was involved in at that point in time. And that sounds, you know, that's that's a pretty full career and it's taken me through a lot of a lot of journeys and and those types of things. But what's been most difficult is the 10 years of transition.
00:03:34
Speaker
through my transition and then kind of pulling back off of it and saying, why is this so difficult? And finding out that it wasn't me, it's kind of a ah phenomenon. It shifted my my work to, how can I better train, teach, and coach veterans to some extent, a business and entity, an organization that employs people and and can get excited about employing veterans. However, once the veterans get in their organizations, they tend to leave. And currently in the United States, 50% of all veterans leave their job in the first year.
Cultural Shifts from Military to Civilian Employment
00:04:05
Speaker
And it's a phenomenon. it's ah It's a shift from one culture to the next. So imagine living in Billings, Montana one day, and that's all you know. That's the only place you've ever lived.
00:04:14
Speaker
And somebody puts you on a plane and you land in Madagascar. There's a phenomenon, a shift in your culture and things that you have to learn. Everything from food to language to what's acceptable living conditions and how you do just your day-to-day activities of living. So you're going to feel out of place and you're going to feel uncomfortable and you're going to want to look for things that make you comfortable.
00:04:39
Speaker
that can make you settle in. And you'll probably tend to do more of those things in Madagascar that look like something in Billings. You know, you're gonna look for something. If that's not there, you may be on the next plane out of Madagascar back to Billings or someplace that's more familiar because that's kind of how we are as humans. And so this phenomenon is exactly the same from what the institution of the military is and the things that go along with that, and we'll cover some of those things, the things that go along with that to civilian employment's back into the civilian you know mainstream, there's a lot of differences there. We really don't have any formal governmental you know processes that do that. It's just kind of a pickup game. So some people have an easier time of transition and some people struggle mightily. So so that's ah you know that's my journey to to where we're at.
00:05:29
Speaker
It's a very useful analogy to make. You're going from one country to another country that is completely different. As soon as you've mentioned Montana and Madagascar, I thought, like how is he going to cope without the snow in Madagascar? right There's no snow.
00:05:44
Speaker
But that is what we're talking about in terms of moving from an organization which has a very strong culture to the military, regardless of which country you are in, a strong culture within the military, strong sense of belonging, strong sense of feeling supported. Your buddies will always be there for you.
The Need for Structured Transition Programs
00:06:05
Speaker
to moving into a much more relaxed type of culture in the civilian world where and people will be working there one week and then decide to work somewhere else next week and they're no longer there. um How do you cope with all of those all of those types of changes? It's a great analogy to use. Thank you very much. But you also mentioned that there is no sort of official structure for that transition period within the US military.
00:06:36
Speaker
So, correct. And I think there's a couple of reasons why. You know, our, our Department of Defense or any, the Ministry of Defense or any, any Defense Department is focused on, on taking care of the internals so that soldiers, sailors, airmen, Marines, or whatever branch of the service that you're in, ah so that you can be the most effective when the country needs you to do whatever that is. Protect, defend, fight, do with those, do those kinds of things.
00:07:04
Speaker
But as you transition out, there's no structure from those defense departments or the ministry of defense or however your country's structured. There's no, there's no structure in there that quite frankly um is is adequate enough for you to. They should make that change. i suppose Yeah. Well, it's it's a financial thing. I mean, if you tried to build that structure internally and then follow the person out of the military, it would just drain from your core mission. yeah So in America, we have a Veterans Administration. They do more health care things and they're focused on those type of things. They're really not focused on the individual's transition. so
00:07:43
Speaker
That's what this phenomenon that I'm that i'm addressing has created 64,000 veteran service organizations that are all run by guys and gals like me ah because we have these gaps. yeah um You know, Michael, I think here's you know here's the human phenomenon behind this. I tend to think that you know a large percentage and the high 90th percentile of humans are good people. They're just good people and they want to do the right things. yes And our country is a hole in your country for sure.
00:08:13
Speaker
is very respectful of people that have served or continue to serve. you know It doesn't matter if it's one year or 100 years. They're very respectful of that, and they admire that. But you don't know what you
Employers' Understanding of Veterans' Needs
00:08:23
Speaker
don't know, Michael. and and as And as well intended as you can be, if you don't know all of these things, you did a great introduction to that. All of these things that you mentioned, purpose, camaraderie, team, structure, strategy, clear vision, communication,
00:08:39
Speaker
Uh, the guy to the right and the guy to the left or the guy, the you know, the, the, the lady to the right, you know, the gal to the right, the gal to the whatever, whatever that all of those things that you're looking for, that you desire that have nurtured you up until that point in time. If I show up into your organization and, and I don't, first of all, I don't articulate these needs. And second of all, you have no idea that I'm looking for these things or this phenomenon is occurring, this, this transitional phenomenon.
00:09:09
Speaker
going from an institutional environment to what is a non-institutional environment, less structured, less disciplined, less reliant on the person to the right or left of you, more based on time and economics and bottom line. If I don't know that that exists, I can't create an environment for you. I can't be empathetic at a level that helps me helps me help you ease into the transition pace.
00:09:34
Speaker
So there has to be a subject matter expert in there that does that, that takes the two sides and puts them together in an organization and says, here's some of the struggles. Here's all of the great things that you can mine from a veteran. Here's what they're going to bring to your organization. Let's get those. And then here's how you keep the veteran in your organization. And here's how you can learn, lose the veteran in your organization. So you teach some of the stumbling points, the pitfalls, but you also teach the cultural tweaks. We're not talking about a huge cultural change, but we're talking about the cultural tweaks that you do, the little add-ons that you do for this section of your
00:10:12
Speaker
of your organization that you're bringing, you do those cultural tweaks and you can create an environment where not only the veteran transitions well, they can identify with things and then they can actually learn the new culture that they're in, no different than the Madagascar explanation. If they can get comfortable in a couple of places, they'll gradually integrate elsewhere, but they'll feel comfortable, safe, wanted, you know, they want to ride for the brand. They want to be part of something.
00:10:38
Speaker
And so you got to have to, you have to create that environment. Yes. Just want to go back a little bit and say that in the United Kingdom, our ministry of defence and government as a whole, we have the military covenant, which is our commitment as a nation to those people who have served and their relatives.
Support Systems and Employer Roles in Veteran Transition
00:10:57
Speaker
Part of that is that we do have a transition service, a part of the Ministry of Defence, which helps people transition. It puts in a lot of work to prepare people for civilian working environments. It works. It works for lots of people. It doesn't necessarily work for everyone. I've seen people come out of it very successfully and other people who have struggled more. I think that what you've said,
00:11:24
Speaker
is that we have all sorts of different things contributing towards that successful transition process. ah One of those key ingredients in the success of that process is the role that the employers play. Accepting, I suppose, that when you take someone from a particular environment or a particular culture or even from your nearest competitor. As an HR professional, every time I've changed employers, I have changed industry. It's been fantastic. But if you've spent 20 years in in one culture, moving to another culture, it's going to be difficult.
00:12:00
Speaker
The big question is, you I could say, like what is it that employers get wrong? But it's more a case of what could employers do better to make that transition process easier? And whilst we focus on military veterans, it is also worth remembering that when you bring anyone in with any type of experience from a different organization,
00:12:26
Speaker
there is going to be a period where they feel uncomfortable, unloved and lost in many ways within a culture. You have to learn the culture. What we are saying is that the civilian culture and the military culture can be very different and the problems of people making that transition are multiplied. So what is it that employers need to do differently? Well, let's break employers up into a couple of subsets. Okay.
00:12:56
Speaker
large companies, large corporations, the big ones, right? A medium-sized company with maybe hundreds of employees. And then your small mom and pop, your small business with maybe between 10 and 50 employees. A few different approaches. ah The large companies usually need some diversity and intellectual capital.
00:13:20
Speaker
And we all want that to be cheap, right? We don't want to hire a whole, everybody can't be just a college graduate that has, you know, basic learning, but they need experience and they have to be, you know, they have to be trained on pieces of equipment or pieces of technology and those types of things. And so there's a need for a balance in there, which veterans bring. So some of it is,
00:13:41
Speaker
yeah Are you vet ready? So when you do outreach, right? Because a lot of people want to hire veterans because they have all of these skills. and The schools that they've gone through in the military are exactly the same schools that you would send somebody to to get them squared away. So you get this quantum leap, right? You hire this person, and they're already maybe two to two to three years ahead of or or what an entry-level employee would be.
00:14:07
Speaker
going to interrupt you there for a moment David because I'm listening to you there and I'm thinking like are we saying that because of the way in which people who are served in the military have been trained that they can arrive in a civilian employment knowing more, understanding more, being having greater competence in soft skills, for example, than a comparable person of a similar age who hasn't had that military service. Right, right. So the phenomenon there is is that most veterans will end up taking a job that is about two levels of experience and organization in the organizational chart, two levels below where they got out of the military for the exact phenomenon that you explained.
00:14:49
Speaker
Because most of them go in at a level that the company or their organization
Veterans' Skills and Misinterpretations in the Workplace
00:14:54
Speaker
thinks that they are they fit because the resumes look look wonky. they When you interpret it, you go, gosh, I don't even know how this this military job equates to where we're at, but they have some experience with this and those type of things. And so we'll put them in here. And they always companies that do not take the time to do this diagnostic will always misdiagnose.
00:15:17
Speaker
where the where the person should fit into the organization. And this causes, this is a friction point. So for instance, if you've worked in the equivalent, and this is was my experience, i my last almost 10 years in the military, I was working at the key equivalent of a C-suite. A lot of people, a lot of money, a lot of moving pieces and parts, and I was intimately involved in the high level strategic decision making that ran the whole organization.
00:15:44
Speaker
When I took a job that was a couple layers lower, i'm very I'm very stereotypical. When I took a job that was a couple layers lower, I would say things in the room like, yes, I've been where you're at. And you know we used to use these moant you know these modes and modalities of of handling certain things. And it might be something for you to be interested in. And you know based on that, you know here's my recommendations. yeah People would run away from me. I mean, it would just petrify people. For a chief executive, anything, to hear somebody say, I've done what you've done, so here's some suggestions, you automatically become a negative. It's a threatening thing, because that's the normal human reaction. They're going to take my job. They know more than I do. And so they say silly things like, well, that's just a military thing, or it's not the same. And those types and it's it's very hurtful. It's very hurtful that you know some of us
00:16:32
Speaker
that have gone to combat and taken people to combat and gone through those things are, the way we see things is completely different. These larger companies that know what they want, know how they want to utilize military people, especially to fill these these this intellectual capital need, have got to understand that they come with these other cultural prisms that they see things through. And they may show up and fit the technical piece of your organization perfectly, and it's the person that you want.
00:17:01
Speaker
but within a year, they'll be gone because how you've set the culture, how you present yourself every day and then how you approach them um and it really comes down to kind of respect how you approach them. If you don't put the time and effort in to do the soft the soft pieces of this to understand but how they tick and what you know what makes them work and you know why they would say something in a room like that and find out that there's probably value in it and defer to that level of expertise without having ego be in the way, you can be successful.
00:17:32
Speaker
but culturally we're not set up for that. Yes, it makes me think that we have senior executives, managers in organizations who might ask a question, but there the last thing that they want is the answer to that question. And certainly not from someone who's thought about it in a different way. You're almost describing a situation where I could say, well, that management team are looking for yes people, people who are going to agree with them, rather than people who are going to have separate ideas. And that's almost like a
00:18:05
Speaker
a problem that is an organizational issue that impacts the military veteran, but isn't really a problem of the military veteran. is it's the It's an example of that clash of cultures. Correct.
00:18:20
Speaker
correct if we if we talk about when people say diversity in teams makes the team more effective more productive then we have to start learning how to deal with how to interact with how to manage people who are different from us. And that's not necessarily that they are a different gender or have different racial identity or whatever. It can be as simple as I have one set of experience and this other person has a different set of experience. We need to understand how we're going to share that experience before we can actually derive value from the combination of our experience.
00:19:01
Speaker
There's a lot of traits that veterans bring to organizations that are positives and negatives simultaneously. One of those is competence. It can be perceived as cocky. It can perceived be perceived as arrogant. It can be perceived as asumptive to a point that it's dangerous. Most veterans have worked in asymmetrical environments where their decision making has to be so refined that they can do things that a corporate board would take three to five months. We can do that in about three to five minutes. Yes. One of the pieces of advice that I was once given whilst I was working in North America
00:19:39
Speaker
was that, Michael, you have to remember that there is a very thin line between enthusiasm and arrogance. And it's a long time ago I was given that piece of advice whilst I was working on a project that I was very enthusiastic about, but with other people who weren't as confident, went as enthusiastic, my enthusiasm was interpreted as arrogance and that message has stuck with me.
00:20:08
Speaker
Where we are at the moment in terms of veterans is that we're talking about this clash that happens because neither party really understands the other. True. you know We'll all be very Veterans Day, Remembrance Day, Our Forces Day, whichever day you have to celebrate our own forces, we will do that. You would not want to be seen without your poppy in the UK in November.
00:20:33
Speaker
But celebrating, commemorating, and being proud of is not the same as understanding.
Meaningful Engagement with Veterans
00:20:41
Speaker
Yes, you know, we get a lot of thank you for your service here in the United States. And then I tell people to stop that, because it's usually said with a straight arm, because after thank you for your service, they're really not interested in the rest of the story, because it's some of it's very hard to digest.
00:20:56
Speaker
But if you stopped a veteran and you said, tell me your story, it would start off like, I didn't i didn't belabor you at the at the beginning, but it would start off as something like, you know I grew up here, I went in the military at this point in time, here's all the things I've done, here's all the places that I've been, and and it's very superficial. you know If they're comfortable, they'll tell you war stories, that doesn't happen very often, but if they're if they're comfortable, they'll do that. yeah I lived in the UK for six years total, three years with a gap, and then three years back, and My wife is adamant about wearing poppies, so she's always got a puppy. And I love it. And i saying sometimes people will be like, oh, that that flower is cute. you know And then she explains what that's all about. And that stuff is very important. But the harder part, Michael, the real harder part is this human resource management piece that people don't want to adopt because, one,
00:21:47
Speaker
Anytime you talk about changing culture, it's, it's fatiguing for people because then they have to go back and they have to have original thought, they have to shape things. You have to sell it. I mean, you have to, you've got to, you got to tell your organization, we value this and we value this at a level that it's going to be one more thing that we need you to focus on until it becomes natural and cultural. Well, that doesn't happen overnight. Sometimes it doesn't even happen in a year.
00:22:11
Speaker
But as long as we use that as an excuse, because there's a little bit of fear and a little bit of pain, which are the two things that drive us to inaction, as long as those exist at the corporate level, you know, if you're running an organization, have the the the global internal courage to take a step forward into a place that you know nothing about. Grow yourself, grow your understanding. And once that happens, it puts you so far ahead of your competitors or anybody else in the world that doesn't have that doesn't have that that ability to take that step forward. And this is what we're talking about. So i would I would never tell anybody that this venture that I took on is easy. I mean, the amount of nos that I've gotten from well-intentioned people that have a lot of respect for veterans, but they just don't want to do this. And so as long as those gaps exist, we're going to sit in this and this really difficult environment for veterans to
00:23:07
Speaker
to transition back into. and And unfortunately, we have some a-barencies and the outcomes of that in our and our veteran population, all the way in up to including suicide. So we need to be really careful with that. And we just need high functioning, high intelligent people, emotionally intelligent people that are willing to take it on and understand that it's not gonna make them look bad. It's only gonna make them look better. And to do the work is is actually noble and admirable.
00:23:34
Speaker
Yes, you mentioned there are different types of employers and the size of an employer indicates the amount of resources that they have that might be put into making the integration of military veterans into their workforce a lot easier. From what you're saying, I think I get the feeling at least that the the issues, the challenges are universal regardless of how big an organization you may have or how much resources you may have to actually deal with the problem. The problems are very much universal. It is simply that, yes, we want the skills, we want the knowledge, we want the experience, we want all of the things that we think we understand about military veterans.
00:24:19
Speaker
But we don't actually know how to learn, how to integrate someone with all those valuable experience and tools and knowledge, et cetera, into an organization that will be as alien to them as their previous organization would be to many people who are civilians, whether they have served or not. It's it's making that individual cultural shift where the real challenge comes in.
00:24:48
Speaker
Let me give you an example so that there's a, how do I do this or what's ah what's something that's fairly close. If somebody showed up for a job interview that you really wanted to hire because of their expertise, yet they were deaf in their right ear and they were in a wheelchair. While you were interviewing the person, you would already know what their office space needed to look like, what you would tell the rest of the staff, how you would evacuate them in an emergency.
00:25:12
Speaker
what your stairwell should look like and what your elevator should look like, your lift should look like. All of those, all of those that you already know that. And in the United States, we have a ah law called the American Disabilities Act that tells you exactly how to do that, how to integrate somebody that doesn't fit into the basic standard culture based on ah on a physical disability, how to integrate that.
00:25:33
Speaker
and we know how to do that. And in fact, there's even some tax breaks if you have a certain amount of people that work for you that are disabled. It's the same with veterans actually in the United States.
Addressing Veteran Transition Challenges in Organizations
00:25:42
Speaker
yes So how can we do that so easy and then struggle with this veteran phenomenon?
00:25:49
Speaker
I think the answers are twofold. One is there's no law that tells you how you have to show you have to shape your culture when veterans are brought on board. And I don't think that we need to legislate it, even though that may be the the end to making this more universal. The second thing is is that we don't think veterans are yeah wheelchair bound or have deafness in a figurative sense.
00:26:10
Speaker
We think veterans are strong and resilient and tough, and I just hire them there because they can handle anything. I do a little drill with executive teams where I ask them, give me some one-word descriptives, some adjectives that describe veterans. And it's all strong and independent and and you know problem solvers. and it's ah They're glowing, glowing, glowing reviews of veterans. But then at the same time in the same room, I have the veterans say,
00:26:34
Speaker
ah give one word descriptives of your transition. And it's disconnected, lost, no purpose, stressed, frustrated, you know, all the, and that when I, when I have them all in the same room together, I've literally had the non-veterans have shed tears over the gap of the perception of the veteran and their transition and how these people see them.
00:26:57
Speaker
It's an amazing thing. I do it right on it right on the very front end of any interaction that I do with executives. And people are like, wow. And I'm like, so here's how you fix it. And there's there is still, Michael, there's still a point. As soon as you say, here's some of the things that you can do internally, even the easy things, like put their pictures on the wall. They just kind of, you can just see a shift in them of that's too hard. It's just one more thing. And it's because they're plates full of a lot of things. And um and and so here again, without without wanting to sound arrogant. I've been in their shoes. And I understand what one more thing feels like. And I understand it about 10 more emails. And I understand about project deadlines. I understand about problems that you're working on on a day to day basis. But I guarantee you, if you threw this in the pile of all of the priorities, it would not be it would not fall off of the list of the need to do's. But you could find something else that you could you could probably stop doing to do this. Yes. And so it just takes the time and the effort and the thought. The willpower to do it.
Conclusion and Resources for Veteran Support
00:27:54
Speaker
It's very thought-provoking, David, and yeah I've been involved in this area on and off in in various different ways as a volunteer for for quite some time. I will put some links in the description to some of the organisations that can help. It is just very enlightening and to hear someone who's on several thousand miles away talking about a situation there which I have seen happen here as well. I'm sure we will come back to this this topic again in the future, but For the moment, David, it has been great. Thank you very much. It's a real privilege to hear about your experiences. No, I so appreciate being on with you, Michael. Thank you. Thank you. The things in life that we're the most proud of are the ones that have been the most difficult and we had to put the most effort towards accomplishing.
00:28:39
Speaker
And what better legacy to leave as a business owner and and an employer of of humans than to be able to to give a veteran, not only you know to maintain their pride in their service, but to give them a place to live and thrive and be healthy and happy spiritually, emotionally, physically.
00:28:59
Speaker
And that's that can if you take on that responsibility, I think that that's for a pretty noble cause that competes with anything else in your world. So take a hard thought about that. That's great.
00:29:10
Speaker
rat Thank you very much. It's been a very interesting and pleasure. Thank you very much. I am Michael Millward, the managing director of Abecedah, and I have been having a conversation with the independent mind, David Nordell from MaxFab Consulting in Billings, Montana. You can find out more about both of us at abecedah.co.uk. There is a link in the description.
00:29:34
Speaker
I must remember to thank the team at matchmaker.fm for introducing me to David Naudel. If you are a podcaster looking for interesting guests or if you, like David, have something very interesting to say, matchmaker dot.fm is where matches of great hosts and great guests are made. There's a link to matchmaker.fm and an offer code in the description.
00:29:56
Speaker
If you're listening to the independent minds on your smartphone, you may like to know that 3 has the UK's fastest 5G network with unlimited data. So listening on 3 means you can wave goodbye to buffering.
00:30:09
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There is a link in the description that will take you to more information about business and personal telecom solutions from three and the special offers available when you quote my referral code. The description includes links to all sorts of different sources of information, both here in the United Kingdom and in the United States of America.
00:30:29
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which means that that description is well worth reading. I'm sure you have enjoyed this episode of The Independent Minds, so please give it a like and download it so that you can listen anytime, anywhere. To make sure you don't miss out on future episodes, please subscribe. Remember, the aim of all the podcasts produced by Abbasidah is not to tell you what to think, but we do hope to have made you think. Until the next episode of The Independent Minds, thank you for listening and goodbye.