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Ep 32: Is College Worth It? A Former College President's Honest Guide for Moms (Dr. Beverly Daniel Tatum)
37 Plays6 months ago
Is college still worth the investment? As a mom, you're asking the tough questions about your child's future, and you deserve honest answers from someone who's been inside higher education for decades.
In this essential episode of Mommas Who Lead, host Laura Caroffino sits down with Dr. Beverly Daniel Tatum, former President of Spelman College and author of "Peril and Promise: College Leadership in Turbulent Times." Dr. Tatum reveals the insider secrets every parent needs to know before their child steps foot on campus.
What You'll Discover:
• Why 70% of college students don't graduate and how to ensure your child isn't one of them
• The ONE question that predicts college success (that admissions officers don't want you to ask)
• How to evaluate college costs beyond tuition - and why sticker prices are misleading
• The mental health crisis affecting college students and practical solutions for parents
• "Intrusive advising" - the support system that could save your family thousands
• Questions to ask colleges that don't appear in glossy brochures
• How to spot red flags that signal your child won't get the support they need
• Navigating political tensions while protecting your family's values
• The ABCs of inclusive community: Affirming identity, Building community, Cultivating leadership
Dr. Tatum brings 13 years of college presidential experience plus decades as a psychologist and educator. Her insights on leadership, student success, and navigating turbulent times in higher education are invaluable for any parent making this crucial investment decision.
Perfect for:
- Moms with high school students researching colleges
- Parents concerned about college costs vs. value
- Families wanting to protect their values while investing in education
- Anyone questioning if college is the right path for their child
- Parents of first-generation college students
About Dr. Beverly Daniel Tatum:Psychologist, award-winning author, and President Emeritas of Spelman College. She recently served as interim President of Mount Holyoke College during challenging times. Her book "Peril and Promise" offers an insider's guide to higher education.
About Mamas Who Lead:The podcast for purpose-driven mothers building faith-filled businesses and raising confident, mission-minded children. Host Laura Carafino interviews experts and leaders who help moms navigate life's biggest decisions with wisdom and confidence.
Resources Mentioned:
- "Peril and Promise: College Leadership in Turbulent Times" by Dr. Beverly Daniel Tatum
- Connect with Dr. Tatum: BeverlyDanielTatum.com
- Join our community: LauraCarafino.com/resources
Keywords: college admissions, higher education, parenting advice, college costs, student success, college preparation, mom podcast, parenting podcast, education podcast, college planning, Dr. Beverly Daniel Tatum, Spelman College, college president, student mental health, college graduation rates, purpose-driven parenting
Subscribe to Mamas Who Lead for conversations that help purpose-driven mothers lead with confidence in every season of life.
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Transcript
Introduction and Episode Focus
00:00:00
Speaker
Hi friends, welcome back to Mamas Who Lead, the space where motherhood meets mission, purpose, purpose meets power, and every day women are reminded that their leadership matters at home, in their businesses, and in the world.
00:00:13
Speaker
I'm your host, Laura Carafino, and today's episode is for every mom who's ever looked at the college decision process and thought, is this the right move? Or maybe you've asked, is college still worth the cost?
00:00:25
Speaker
Will my child be safe? How do I know they'll belong? How do i let go and lead them well into adulthood? If you've had any of those thoughts, this episode is for you.
Guest Introduction: Dr. Beverly Daniel Tatum
00:00:37
Speaker
And today I'm joined by someone whose wisdom and leadership have shaped generations of students and family. Dr. Beverly Daniel Tatum. She is president emeritus of Spelman college.
00:00:51
Speaker
She's a psychologist, award-winning author, and one of the most respected voices in higher education. She has just launched her newest book, Peril and Promise, College Leadership in Turbulent Times.
00:01:04
Speaker
It's part memoir, part leadership blueprint, and full of wisdom for anyone raising the next generation in today's shifting world. So whether you're guiding your high school senior through college decisions, preparing to launch a freshman into the unknown, or reflecting on your own legacy as a mother and a leader, get ready to be both grounded and inspired.
00:01:26
Speaker
Dr. Tatum has spent her career helping students thrive, not just academically, but emotionally, socially, and culturally. In Peril Promise, she helps us understand what's really happening in higher education and how we as mothers, leaders, and advocates can show up with both wisdom and confidence.
00:01:44
Speaker
Dr. Tatum, ah welcome to Mamas Who Lead. I'm so honored to have you with us. Well, I'm delighted to be with you, Laura, and looking forward to our conversation. ah Likewise.
00:01:55
Speaker
Okay, let's start.
Dr. Tatum's Career Journey
00:01:56
Speaker
um What first stirred your heart towards leadership in higher education? Well, you know, I was a professor of psychology for a long time, and I really enjoyed being a professor. You know, I enjoyed working with my students and doing my research and all the things that professors do and being a college leader.
00:02:17
Speaker
in an official administrative capacity was not on my mind at all for a long time. But ah after I had been promoted, when when you become a professor, you start as an assistant professor and then you become an associate professor and hopefully you will eventually become what's called a full professor.
00:02:36
Speaker
And full professor is like the top of the pile in terms of that that professorial hierarchy. And when I became a full professor, i had been teaching probably about 17 or 18 years and was feeling a little restless. You know, there was kind of like, OK, I've achieved this goal.
00:02:57
Speaker
Now what? And I wasn't sure what would be next. But I had the opportunity to serve as the chair of my department. Now, I say opportunity. I didn't really want to do it.
00:03:10
Speaker
bad but but ah But in higher education, it's often the case that the person who runs the department is a rotating role. People take turns doing it.
00:03:21
Speaker
And it was my turn. You know, my colleague said, Beverly, it's your turn. So I was getting ready to do that, but thinking, this is not really what I'm looking for. What what can challenge me? What would be the next exciting adventure professionally for me.
00:03:39
Speaker
And I was thinking about this and talking to a friend and she said, you know, I think maybe you should be the dean. The dean at that time, I was working at Mount Holyoke College and the person who held the position of dean of the college was stepping down.
00:03:53
Speaker
And she said, I think you'd be perfect for that role. And I thought and said, Who in her right mind would want that job? I didn't think it was, you know, I just imagined it would be one long line of boring meetings.
00:04:05
Speaker
And she said to me, you are not using your imagination. If you were the dean, those ideas you have about how to make the college better would some of which you've been writing about in your books, you could put those things into practice.
00:04:19
Speaker
And I thought, well, there's an idea. Maybe it would be more interesting than I thought. So I was kind of persuaded to test it out. And I applied for the dean position and was selected.
00:04:31
Speaker
And I quickly learned that it was really interesting and that those meetings that I thought might be boring were much more interesting when you get to plan the agenda for them. right You know, when they're your meetings.
00:04:44
Speaker
ah and And it was possible to innovate and to do things differently than had been done previously. And I really enjoyed it. Once I had that dean experience, it was a short leap to then start thinking about being a college president.
00:05:00
Speaker
Wow, that's, that's remarkable. I'm sure I like putting your twist on things. um Definitely helps and keeps it interesting. Yes, for sure Was there any moments like early on where you doubt you doubted maybe your place in leadership at all?
Leadership Insights and Influences
00:05:15
Speaker
Regularly, regularly. um But one of the things that I did, you know, maybe it's the professor in me, I did, I started reading about leadership. You know, when when I was a psychology professor, I taught in my area of leadership.
00:05:31
Speaker
expertise, but I wasn't reading books about leadership. um But when I became a dean, I did, I read everything I could find about leadership, women's leadership in particular, but not just that.
00:05:42
Speaker
And, and I found those books really interesting, and some of them quite helpful in thinking about what I needed to do, particularly around things like strategic planning, or, you know, team building,
00:05:56
Speaker
And I really believe that effective leaders don't lead alone, right? You need a team around you and getting that team to share the vision and to, as I like to say, get everybody rowing in the same direction so that you can really make progress is essential.
00:06:16
Speaker
And think read a lot about how other people had done that and practice some of those things myself. But there are certainly the first time I had to um terminate someone by that, I mean, fire, you know, i mean, that's an awkward thing. And you don't, you know, um never easy, never easy.
00:06:35
Speaker
But i I learned a lot from the process. You know, i thought of it all as a as an opportunity to learn. And um you make mistakes, of course, but you grow from those mistakes, too.
00:06:47
Speaker
Do you recall any of the books that you were reading at the time that really stand out to you that helped you? Yes. one My favorite one, and I often give it to people when they become new leaders, was titled Leading with Soul.
00:07:00
Speaker
um Leading with Soul. And it was um an allegorical tale about a ah leader who was struggling and met with a mentor who offered wisdom and it and the But the fundamental idea, which I really appreciated in the book, was the idea that you lead from who you are, right? Who you are as a person is at the core of your leadership style.
00:07:30
Speaker
And so if you're confused or struggling, maybe it has to do with an inner struggle that you're having. You know, maybe it has to do with getting clarity about your goals and what it is you're trying to accomplish.
00:07:45
Speaker
But I found that book really, um really helpful. And in the book, there was a um ah poem that was quoted.
00:07:55
Speaker
And the line that I'm going to remember is that, you know, work is love made visible. Oh, I love that. I do too. that That sentence, work is love made visible was so meaningful to me because, you know, when you are in a leadership role at a mission centered organization, leading ah you know leading a college is all about the mission.
00:08:20
Speaker
And if you are really trying to deliver that mission for students every day, it is a form of love that you're expressing and your work is love made visible.
00:08:32
Speaker
It is. I love this, especially having, you know, having children that go to college and I attended college too, but, um, having your child, you want to have your child to go to colleges where the president, the leadership staff is thinking in the, in this capacity and thinking this way. And with, I love that leading with love, um, yes and love showing up visible. i love that.
00:08:56
Speaker
Um, now I'm going to get into some little, um, more challenging question here sure you. You stepped into leadership at a time and in spaces where women were rarely seen at those tables, right?
00:09:10
Speaker
And even fewer women of color. so what gave you that confidence to take up that space and keep showing up with strength? Cause I'm sure you met some challenges and I would love to hear those.
00:09:21
Speaker
Yes. I'm happy to share some, but let me start by saying that I, grew up in an unusual circumstance perhaps different from what maybe many Black women would have experienced.
00:09:34
Speaker
So um I'm going to tell this story from the very beginning because I think it's meaningful. Love it. But yeah um I was born in 1954. I don't mind saying that.
00:09:46
Speaker
ah So I'm soon to be 71. My birthday is in September. and um When I was born in 1954, my family was living in Tallahassee, Florida.
00:09:58
Speaker
am the child of educators. My parents both went to Howard University and my dad became an art professor and he was teaching at Florida A&M University, which is historically black college or university in And back in in 1954, when I born, dad had and nineteen fifty four when i was born my dad had an undergraduate degree from Howard, and he had a master's degree um from Iowa State University.
00:10:29
Speaker
And he wanted to get a doctorate. I should say my dad was a veteran. He benefited from the GI Bill. That's how he finished his education and was able to go to um graduate school with the GI benefit.
00:10:45
Speaker
But in higher education, to advance, you really need a doctorate. And so for him, he needed to get his doctorate um in art education. That was his specialty.
00:10:57
Speaker
And he wanted to do that at Florida State University, which is also in Tallahassee. So just across town from where he was working. Unfortunately, in 1954, Florida State was a whites-only institution.
00:11:10
Speaker
And even after Brown versus Board of Education, that famous Supreme Court decision that made school segregation unconstitutional, The state of Florida was slow, like a lot of southern states, was slow to implement the desegregation process.
00:11:27
Speaker
But they were required by law to provide access to graduate education that he was seeking. So the way they did that, rather than allow him to attend Florida State, they provided his transportation out of the state.
00:11:43
Speaker
So my dad actually earned his doctorate at Penn State, commuting between Tallahassee, Florida and State College, Pennsylvania, where Penn State is located. And the state of Florida didn't pay his tuition, but reimbursed his train fare.
00:11:58
Speaker
So when he finished his degree, which he did in 1957, now I'm three years old, and my older brother, they had another child at that time who was, you know, two years ah older than me.
00:12:09
Speaker
My older brother was five, almost six, about to start school. And my parents decided they did not want him to go to school in that segregated system in Florida.
00:12:20
Speaker
And my dad was looking for a new opportunity. and got a job in Bridgewater, Massachusetts, and became the first African-American professor at what was then called Bridgewater State Teachers College, now known to today as Bridgewater State University.
00:12:35
Speaker
And Bridgewater is about 30 miles outside of Boston, and that's where I grew up. We moved there in 1958, and grew there. and i ah grew up there And I say that to say was a small New England town, very few black families living in the town.
00:12:50
Speaker
And as a consequence, I was the only black kid in my classes most of my schooling from first grade through high school. So, you know, being the only one in the room is not an unusual experience for me.
00:13:03
Speaker
You know, I learned early on how to navigate those spaces. And I did have a certain self-confidence because i was a really good student.
00:13:14
Speaker
And in fact, my mother taught me to read before I got to school. So when I entered first grade, I was a very strong reader when a lot of my classmates were still, you know, learning.
00:13:30
Speaker
And, um, I think that gave me a lot of confidence because I was the only black kid in the class, but I was also the only one who could read. but so the um So my um experience in life has been of being in spaces where I felt very competent.
00:13:49
Speaker
you know I was a competent first grader and you know that continued to... through my schooling. So fast forward when I became a president, um you know, walking into spaces where I was the only Black woman was not an unusual experience, but I felt confident in my ability.
00:14:08
Speaker
rooted in my childhood, really. Oh, my goodness. your Your story is incredible. I didn't realize how incredible it got. But just starting from the beginning, um oh my goodness, your parents did an amazing job raising you guys and to be resilient, to stand up for yourself and your confidence along the way. Just remarkable story.
00:14:33
Speaker
um but Now, what would you say to the young woman that maybe don't have that advantage of being raised by strong leaders? um You know, maybe they're beginning there, you know, it may be a teenager or they have dreams of possibly leadership or, you know, in spaces that maybe are mostly held by men or mostly held by predominantly white. If, you know, that may be the case they're looking for.
00:15:00
Speaker
What would she do? What would you tell her to do?
Advice for Young Women and Book Motivation
00:15:04
Speaker
One, somebody, um I have a colleague who said something to me once, and and that it was this expression. She said, there is a teacher and a learner in every seat.
00:15:15
Speaker
And what that means is that everybody has something to learn. Everybody has something to teach, right? So, you know, there's a teacher and a learner in every seat. And what I would say to that young person is that there's a teacher and a learner in every seat.
00:15:31
Speaker
You have things to learn, but you also have things to teach. And so there are things that you will learn from others in this room, but there are things that others in this room are going to learn from you.
00:15:42
Speaker
And don't deprive them of that opportunity. right You need to be willing to share what you know. and And everybody knows something from their growing up experience, from what they've studied.
00:15:53
Speaker
you know They're just um who they are as people. you know Each of us has something unique to offer. And to understand that just as that person has something to offer, so do you.
00:16:05
Speaker
I love that. That is that is really good to know um remember whenever you're going through stuff. you know I always like to say that I'm a lifelong loer learner. continue like i don't know everything, obviously, and I want to you know continue that aspect. and um I love that message.
00:16:24
Speaker
So let's talk a little little bit about your your latest book, Peril and Promise. Yes. Why was now the right time to write it? And what promise do you hope women, especially moms, maybe take away from it?
00:16:39
Speaker
Well, you know, um i served as president of Spelman College for 13 years from 2002 to 2015. And when i left my job in 2015, it was with the idea that I would write a couple of books.
00:16:54
Speaker
And um I had two very specific writing projects in mind. And the first one was an update of a book I wrote quite some time ago. That book is called Why Are All the Black Kids Sitting Together in the Cafeteria and Other Conversations About Race.
00:17:10
Speaker
And the publisher, it was originally published in 1997. The publisher asked me to update the book for a 20th anniversary reprinting, re-release, um which was going to happen in 2017.
00:17:23
Speaker
So from 2015 to 2017, that's what I did. I worked on that book. But then the second book idea I really wanted to reflect on my own leadership experience at Spelman and write a book that might be inspiring to other college leaders.
00:17:41
Speaker
However, that project got delayed and and it got delayed by the success of the first book, right? When that 2017 book, it became a bestseller and i spent a lot of time traveling around talking about that book and um and also the events of the pandemic and the murder of George Floyd, all of those things converged to create um a lot of speaking engagements over Zoom, mostly because of the pandemic, about um racism in the United States and how those were some of the issues I'd written about in my in that other book.
00:18:20
Speaker
But by the time we got to 2022, I was ready to do something different. ah you know I was tired of that activity. It was kind of draining. I found it draining.
00:18:32
Speaker
And I wanted to do something different. And so I thought, well, now's a good time to think about that book. And then my phone rang and I was invited to come back to Mount Holyoke College, a place I had worked as a faculty member and as the dean. um ah they Their president had resigned unexpectedly, and they needed a president to fill in while they did a new presidential search.
00:18:57
Speaker
And so the board chair called me and asked if I would serve as the president. one And i agreed to do it for one year from 2022 2023.
00:19:06
Speaker
So when I took on that job, my friend said to me, Beverly, have you lost your mind? You know, it's that this is such a hard job. Why would you come out of retirement to do this?
00:19:18
Speaker
And parents um and people, you know, strangers sitting next to me on a plane, you know, ah ah lots of people asked, like, isn't that such a hard job being a college president today?
00:19:30
Speaker
And, you know, I don't understand why colleges aren't like the way they were when I was a student. You know, I was getting these kinds of questions and comments all the time. So that kind of changed my mind about the kind of book I should write.
00:19:44
Speaker
And what I decided to do when I finished my year at Mount Holyoke was to work on a book that would really kind of an insider's guide to higher education. Using my decades of experience ah having...
00:19:59
Speaker
been an academic all my life really, and translate how colleges work, how financial aid works, how enrollment works, how ah student protests get resolved on campuses when they happen, all of those things that many people wondered about. Higher ed has been in the news a lot lately.
00:20:21
Speaker
And yet people ah who are not up close and personal with college environments as employees or as leaders are confused by the way colleges work. So I thought I would try to give it a user's guide in a way.
00:20:36
Speaker
i hate it It's good. is so good. um And if you know, you're listening, pick up this book, Parallel and Promise. It is so good.
00:20:47
Speaker
And i absolutely love it. I wish I would have had it when my daughter was first looking at colleges. And you know, and it came out the perfect timing because you, you were actually leading during these most culturally tense moments in education.
00:21:04
Speaker
and um You know, there was just a lot going on on college campuses during this time and still, unfortunately. But what does it look like from the leadership um aspect during these times for you every day? Like how as a leader in that position?
College Leadership Challenges and Opportunities
00:21:22
Speaker
Because I i don't think people understand how difficult it really is.
00:21:26
Speaker
It is a challenge. Sometimes I say it's kind of like being mayor of a small town, you know, running a college in the sense that, you know, you've got all these different departments, but at any moment, something can go wrong.
00:21:39
Speaker
Right. You know, the water main can break, you know, the Literally and figuratively, the water main on campus could break. um ah You know, something can go wrong or, you know, there can be a student emergency or there can be, um you know, a strike, ah unionized workers, or there can be.
00:21:58
Speaker
um a pandemic and you have to send students home. You know, there's, you never know. In some ways, that's what I liked about the job, that you never knew from day to day what exactly was going to be happening. So it was always challenging, never boring.
00:22:13
Speaker
but But kept you on your toes. Yes, yes. and And I, you know, one of the things I say in the book is that there are as challenging as the job can be running a college.
00:22:25
Speaker
There are things that really are sources of joy. One of them is the people you meet, right? You meet incredible students, incredible um scholars, but also people.
00:22:39
Speaker
the parents of the students, the people who come to visit the campus, who come to give talks. You just meet a you know the donors who help support the institution. You meet out a tremendous array of wonderful people who you might not ever have otherwise had a chance to meet.
00:22:56
Speaker
But you also get to solve problems. And, ah you know, why is problem solving fun? You know, like, why do people do crossword puzzles? You know, big it engages the mind. It gets you focused. And there are important things that you need to think about in the company of other creative problem solvers.
00:23:14
Speaker
Problems let problem solvers shine. And that is um also exciting in a way, you know, overwhelming sometimes, but it can be exciting. But really, the most important thing is the purpose.
00:23:28
Speaker
What is the purpose of higher education? You know, if you take young people, and they're not all young. I mean, some of them are older returning students, you know, veterans coming to school after having served or um somebody making a career change.
00:23:43
Speaker
But when someone comes to college or a university, they're looking for an opportunity to develop themselves in some important way. um And the kind of transformation that can happen when someone is exposed to new ideas, new people, when they have the opportunity to test their own creative problem solving is really very exciting to watch and to be a part of.
00:24:08
Speaker
And ultimately, our society, not just the person, but the society benefits from folks who have learned to think critically, who have become creative problem solvers.
00:24:21
Speaker
We have complex social problems that need to be addressed. And we need people who have learned how to engage with people different from themselves, um who have learned to think critically, ask good questions, to be part of that ah problem solving process.
00:24:38
Speaker
I love that. And as we're talking about like um that process, so many of our listeners are moms walking with their kids through college decisions or, you know, even consider maybe going back themselves, having that career transition.
Guidance for Moms on College Visits
00:24:52
Speaker
What are three questions that they should be asking that don't show up in those glossy brochures? One question for sure they should ask is not some, I'm gonna describe it as an experience, right?
00:25:08
Speaker
And that question is, am I in the picture? What does that mean? You know, when we enter spaces, whether it's a college environment or a work environment, we want to see ourselves reflected in that space.
00:25:23
Speaker
You know, we want to know, are there people like me here? um Not that everybody has to look like me. I don't mean that. But are there people who will understand where I'm coming from, who will see me, appreciate what I have to offer, and acknowledge the contributions I can make?
00:25:43
Speaker
and And you might say, well, how will you know if that's... going to happen or not. um One way to get a hint is to see whether you find yourself in the environment, right?
00:25:58
Speaker
So I use an analogy in my book. I talk about affirming identity as something that every college should be doing. And what does that mean? It means that if you, let's say you're a single mom and you are coming back to school Are there other single moms who've come back to school there?
00:26:16
Speaker
Is there a program to support parenting students? Is there, um you know, do you see yourself reflected in the way the college is structured and organized?
00:26:26
Speaker
Some places have programs specifically for non-traditionally aged women returning to school. Spelman had one of those programs. Mount Holyoke has a program like that.
00:26:37
Speaker
There are places that do. And those places are likely to be more affirming, more supportive than places that haven't thought about that, as an example. um For, you know, um when I was taking my children around to colleges, my older son, who at the time seemed kind of shy, definitely an introvert.
00:27:01
Speaker
I worried that he'd make friends at school. You know, these were the kinds of things that as a mom I was thinking about. And when we were visiting colleges, he had a particular interest in um Japanese animation.
00:27:14
Speaker
And he loved a particular movie that had been produced by a famous Japanese animator. And when we visited the campus that he ultimately chose, it was in part because he saw they were screening that movie.
00:27:30
Speaker
Oh, wow. On that campus. He saw a poster advertising the movie being screened. And that single signal to him, there are people here who share my interest. Right. And that was ah that was a signal.
00:27:42
Speaker
So looking for those signals, places where you can find yourself in the picture. You know, if there's a photograph, you see yourself in it. That's what people are looking for. And if you find that, that's a good clue. Yeah.
00:27:54
Speaker
But another very practical question is to ask about graduation rates, right? Because everyone who starts college thinks they're going to graduate. That's the plan, right?
00:28:05
Speaker
But we know that at many colleges, the graduation rate is not that great. It can be as low as 20 or 30%. That means 70% of the people are not graduating. So I would always ask, what's your graduation rate?
00:28:19
Speaker
And then... Ask further, what's the graduation rate or how many um students like me have been in your area of interest?
00:28:30
Speaker
Let's say you've got a daughter who's interested in studying physics. Are there any women in the physics department? There are some campuses where the answer to that question is yes, but there are a lot of campuses where the answer to that question might be no.
00:28:46
Speaker
If she's really keen to be in the physics department, she might find she likes philosophy or psychology better, and there's no reason to not change her mind. You know, the students change their change their um majors all the time, but you don't want people to feel like they are being pushed out of a field because somebody thinks they don't belong there.
00:29:08
Speaker
So that's, you know, particularly women in STEM, for example, is a place where I'd want to know, what is the percentage of women majoring in STEM? I know you've got a fabulous computer science department. Are there any women in it?
00:29:23
Speaker
You know, those are the kinds of questions that I would ask. That would have been a good question. My daughter is in STEM. So that would have been a good question to ask. Luckily she does have, there are women in her, um, her sciences. And so she's, she's doing okay, but i'm glad I wish I would have asked that before. And I'm like thinking like, this is so brilliant. Like how, how did I not know to ask that?
00:29:47
Speaker
Um, But I also want to talk about something you mentioned it in the book, and that was intrusive advising.
Intrusive Advising and Student Support
00:29:55
Speaker
That was another key thing that I thought was very important to know.
00:29:59
Speaker
I didn't even think about it because my daughter has struggled. um She is in forensic science. That's her major. And she had issues with organic chemistry.
00:30:12
Speaker
A lot of people have organic chemistry problems. But I didn't know how bad it was. If I would have had that, you know, even asked if they did that, that would have been a key factor. So I'd love to say, you know you know, this is where schools are proactively, they reach out to support students.
00:30:29
Speaker
I know for me personally, that that would have been a game changer. Why do you believe that is, especially for first generation or underrepresented students? Yeah. It's so important. So for people who are wondering, what do we mean by intrusive advising?
00:30:43
Speaker
It's advising where the um the university, using data that they collect, is able to track how students are doing and intervene early on before the problem gets too great. So for example,
00:30:58
Speaker
yeah um there's a chemistry class and a student has missed a couple of the labs. You know, there's a way for the professor to let the advisor know, gee, you know, Beverly wasn't in lab today. She wasn't in lab last week.
00:31:14
Speaker
You know, I'm really so worried she's going to fall behind. We've got a midterm coming up. My advisor in an intrusive way doesn't wait for me to show up and say, oh I'm having trouble in that chemistry class.
00:31:26
Speaker
He might or she might reach out to me and say, Beverly, I see that you've been, you know, your professor's telling me you've been absent. I am wondering what's going on. And then I might say, well, actually, you know, I'm a commuter student.
00:31:41
Speaker
My car broke down. haven't been able to get to campus. um And so that and, you know, it's a $500 repair. I don't have any money ah to fix it. I don't know what to do.
00:31:53
Speaker
There are some institutions, Georgia State University is the model of this, that has emergency loans. You need $500 to fix your car so you can finish your chemistry class. we I can help you with that. you know there's There's a fund specifically to help students to solve those kinds of problems so that they don't get derailed by something. you know Why let your education go down the tubes?
00:32:19
Speaker
for the lack of $500, right? right We can solve that problem. um That's just one example, but it might be something else. It might be um intrusive advising, might be you need to, you know, i I'm coming to class, but particularly, as you said, like a first gen student might feel like, you know, do I really belong here? Everybody else seems to know what they were doing.
00:32:44
Speaker
You know, they went to high schools where they had a chemistry lab and they learned the techniques. my high school didn't have a chemistry lab. I didn't learn the techniques. I'm really feeling pretty insecure.
00:32:54
Speaker
um maybe there's an intrusive and intervention that's not about, you know, you need some money, but maybe you need a tutorial. Maybe you need a lab partner that can, you know, show you the ropes.
00:33:09
Speaker
Um, we can set that up. Maybe there's an opportunity to, um, get more academic support, at least at the beginning. But this notion that some students feel like if they reveal that they're having trouble, it will ah validate their fear that they don't really belong there.
00:33:31
Speaker
You know, there's a term for that. It's called stereotype threat. If I'm worried that raising my hand and saying I'm having trouble is going to confirm the stereotype that women don't belong in STEM, maybe I'm not going to raise my hand and ask.
00:33:48
Speaker
But if I don't raise my hand and ask, I'm going to remain confused. How can a professor or advisor interrupt that? Here's one way they can do it.
00:34:00
Speaker
For example, a professor could say, everyone, expect to see everyone in my office hours at least once in the first three weeks of class.
00:34:13
Speaker
Just come and ask a question. You don't have to be having a problem, but I want everyone at least one time to come visit me in my office hours. that normalizes help seeking, right? you know Because if I'm hesitant to reveal my vulnerability, I don't wanna show up at the office hour.
00:34:32
Speaker
But if the faculty member says, I expect to see everyone at least once, then I'm gonna go. And in the privacy of that conversation, I might feel more comfortable saying, I had this question, I didn't wanna raise my hand in class, but you know this is what's going on with me.
00:34:48
Speaker
Dr. Those kinds of interventions are used in some places, but not always in other places, and you can get a hint about that by simply asking do you have intrusive advising or what supports are in place for first gen students ah some. um some places have programs that are specifically designed to support first-generation students.
00:35:13
Speaker
We often talk about legacy students. Those are the students whose parents graduated from an institution, and so they're the legacy. um at Spelman, we used to have legacy students, but we also had what we called Genesis students.
00:35:28
Speaker
And those were students who were starting the legacy, right? You're the first one to come. um And so there's something special about being a Genesis student. Absolutely. i love that.
00:35:40
Speaker
I wish more colleges and and i think you probably, and based on the type of college it is, private, nonprofit, five or public, I think that also may have a factor maybe about that. Like, why wouldn't all...
00:35:57
Speaker
Colleges, universities offer this, I would think it would they would benefit, especially the graduation rates. Yes. Well, you know, we often think about some some of the things I'm describing.
00:36:07
Speaker
You might think, oh, well, they do that at, you know, small liberal arts colleges because it's a small community, more personalized, etc. But I really want to, again, lift up the example of Georgia State University.
00:36:19
Speaker
It is a large urban in the center of Atlanta, um but they have really done a great job of harnessing technology. They are running their computers every day, checking on the data that they have about student attendance. what you know Sometimes students, again,
00:36:40
Speaker
because they don't always know what the best choices are. ah student might say, I want to be a chemistry major, but that requires to take certain courses in certain sequence. You know, you have to have intro or, and then you have to have organic, then you have to have inorganic.
00:36:55
Speaker
You know, I'm making this up. ah But ah my point is, if you don't follow the sequence, you can't get all the courses you need. in a timely way, and that also can be derailing.
00:37:08
Speaker
But if there's someone who is looking using computer technology at what you have registered for in the first week of the semester, and they see that, oh, you want to be a chemistry major, but you didn't register for this required course, someone can then alert you to say, look, you're goingnna if you want to follow that sequence, you're going to need this course that you haven't signed up for.
00:37:32
Speaker
um That kind of feedback is being done on a large scale, and Georgia State has erased um the graduation gap between low-income students and middle-income students.
00:37:47
Speaker
They're graduating for at the same rate. um that They've erased the graduation discrepancy between Black students and white students, first-gen and middle-income students. not first gen students, students who have coming from a college going family background.
00:38:03
Speaker
It's been quite remarkable. They've gotten a lot of um kudos for it. And other institutions are starting to say, how can we do what they're doing? But it's a very large public institution.
00:38:14
Speaker
So I think it's important to say good practices can come from all parts of the higher ed sector. Hopefully more will start adapting that process. Yes.
00:38:26
Speaker
Because I know my daughter would have benefited greatly from that. um And even myself many, many years ago. um What do you think are some of the lesser known pressures that students face once they're on campus?
Mental Health and College Costs
00:38:41
Speaker
And how can moms help their kids be emotionally and mentally prepared?
00:38:47
Speaker
Yes. One of the things that is was really striking to me when I first came ah back to Mount Holyoke was the growing demand for mental health services on campus.
00:38:59
Speaker
I worked there in the eighty s and 90s. I returned in 2022. So I'd been away from the campus 20 years. And in that 20-year period, the demand for mental health services had really escalated.
00:39:13
Speaker
Some of that prompted by, i think, the stresses of the pandemic um you know on that generation of students who really suffered in terms of social isolation, not being able to connect with friends in the usual way in their adolescence.
00:39:31
Speaker
But more than anything, I think we see the impact of that handheld technology, that smartphone, right? You know, you see people walking down the street.
00:39:42
Speaker
What are they doing? They're looking at their phones. It's a wonder we're not all tripping and falling a more, you know. but um But you see people so engaged with this technology And research is showing us that the more you use that phone, that screen, the less likely you are. and even if you're engaging with people on the phone, you know, you might be, you know, texting, you might be doing Instagram, you might be engaging in social media, but it doesn't take the place of face-to-face contact.
00:40:17
Speaker
And our human psychology is organized for the benefits of face-to-face interaction. So there's an epidemic of loneliness among this generation of young people, lonelier than old people. We often think about, you know, old people living alone, being lonely. The most lonely demographic right now are, you know, the college age students.
00:40:43
Speaker
And research shows that if they reduce their phone use, their screen time, they feel better. They're happier, less depressed, less anxious, more likely to be engaged in interactions with you other human beings in person.
00:41:03
Speaker
And so there's a recommendation in the book that says doing anything It doesn't matter whether it's going bowling or taking a walk or, you know, studying together in the library. Any activity that has you off a screen is likely to increase your mood and you're going to feel less depressed.
00:41:23
Speaker
So if there's one thing that we could say to our young people, it would be put the phone down. but Put the phone down, at least for a little while. Yes, I agree with that one 100%. I took a social media break for a while and I i am enjoying myself without it. um It's amazing how much time you use up when you're, you know, scrolling. easy.
00:41:48
Speaker
And, you know, my younger kids, I'm like my, my little ones, they don't obviously have anything like that, but my older, i mean, they're are adults, so they do. And I'm like, okay, let's go, go do something. Go see a friend, please go do something. Get off your phone.
00:42:04
Speaker
Yes. It makes a huge difference. And so, and i I agree with that. My, my kids, I had one that graduated during the COVID um pandemic. And then I have, the little one was born during that pandemic and even speech delays because of not the interaction, but um huge, huge difference.
00:42:24
Speaker
I want to touch on one thing, a couple of more things real quick before we get off of here. um And maybe we can get through them. If not, maybe I'll have to invite you back. it This has been such a great conversation and I think very needed to.
00:42:37
Speaker
um There was one thing i saw while I was reading, and that is about the cost of college. yeah How can families evaluate whether college is worth it now?
00:42:49
Speaker
And what are the right things to focus on beyond just the tuition? It's a great question. The first thing that I would say is that when we talk about college costs, many people are concerned about debt.
00:43:05
Speaker
You know, I don't want my child to graduate with a lot of debt. And There are many choices, but there's one choice in particular that should probably, um that is the the riskiest choice.
00:43:20
Speaker
The riskiest choice is attending a for-profit institution. Now, what do you mean by that? There are you know large public universities, state-funded.
00:43:31
Speaker
There large, small public institutions, small private institutions, large private institutions, but they're all not-for-profit, which means their major goal is to educate the students.
00:43:44
Speaker
But there there are some businesses which are under the using the college label, but fundamentally they're businesses, they're for-profit businesses.
00:43:56
Speaker
And those for-profit businesses are all sometimes referred to as career academies, or um but but the pride when you're if you're defined as a for-profit business, your your number one priority is not the education, it's the business, it's making the money, right?
00:44:13
Speaker
So for-profit organizations are, often advertise in low-income communities, often are advertising in places where people are looking for an opportunity that because they don't have access to a college nearby or something like that.
00:44:31
Speaker
And the graduation rates are very low and the debt ratios are very high. So people pay a lot of money to go. And then because for-profit institutions generally speaking, don't have the same credibility in the workplace as the not-for-profit organizations do.
00:44:52
Speaker
They don't necessarily translate into the employment opportunities that the person is hoping for. So graduating with debt and having a limited opportunity is a really bad combo.
00:45:04
Speaker
Mm-hmm. Most, however, institutions that your listeners would be considering are not-for-profit. And those not-for-profit organizations, again, I would ask, what's the graduation rate?
00:45:18
Speaker
And what is the average cost? You know, you can um find today colleges that cost as much as $100,000
00:45:30
Speaker
you know There's some really well-known, highly selective institutions. ah Vanderbilt, I think, was the... Vanderbilt University, I think, was the first one to hit the $100,000 mark.
00:45:43
Speaker
but Very few people are going to pay $100,000 because they're going to offer a lot of financial aid. And that sticker price sounds a lot, but maybe somebody is only paying $15,000 a year or $20,000 a year.
00:46:00
Speaker
So you really have to, um what I would say is don't be scared off by sticker price. Ask what the financial aid packages typically are.
00:46:11
Speaker
Because there's some places where students, if their family incomes are low, are going virtually for free. And so it's not necessarily a choice between ah school I can't afford and um you know, a lot of debt.
00:46:29
Speaker
But in the book, I try to explain how you can assess that and why it's necessary. Sometimes people just say, well, why does it cost so much? You know, can't you just lower the price?
00:46:41
Speaker
And the problem there is that colleges, the number one expense on any college campus are the people who work there. And, the you know, if you have, I'm going to make these numbers up.
00:46:53
Speaker
If you have 200 faculty members and those 200 faculty members want to raise, which they do because that's, you know, inflation and, you know, prices escalating. Those 200 people want to raise, where is the raise money going to come from?
00:47:08
Speaker
For most institutions, it's going to come from what students pay. Mm-hmm. So if I need to give you a raise, I'm going to have to charge somebody else some more money.
00:47:18
Speaker
um Now, if I could admit many more students, the overall cost would go down. But in most cases, I'm not able to admit many more students. But some colleges have solved this problem. One college that solved this problem is Southern New Hampshire University.
00:47:36
Speaker
And how did they solve it? They went online. And by going online, they were able to reach many more people still with the same number of faculty members, right?
00:47:47
Speaker
um So they were able to reduce the cost overall. But that is a fundamental problem. And I think it's a social problem. How do we invest in the next generation?
00:47:58
Speaker
There's some places, some countries in Europe where college is free, essentially, because the government pays for it, um because they think it's important to provide that kind of development for their citizenry.
00:48:11
Speaker
Here, we think of it as private good, therefore, you should pay for it yourself. Right, right. I mean, yeah, it's, that was another big thing we were navigating.
00:48:24
Speaker
I, but I just paid off my college tuition a couple, about a decade ago. So um it's it's a long process. And I know that's that was one of the things my daughter was that she's like, whether or not does she go on for grad school?
00:48:40
Speaker
And she's like, well, or do I work now? I don't want to have a lot of debt. I'm like, don't worry about that piece right now. was like, you know you know, think about the longer, the benefit. But um I'm going to have her read your book too, because I think it's going to give her incredible insight as well, instead of just listening to what mom and dad says. Yeah.
00:49:00
Speaker
um Well, there is another, i hope we have a couple, do you have time for a few more questions? A few, sure. Okay. um There was one powerful thread in your book.
Navigating Political Tensions and Inclusion
00:49:11
Speaker
ah It is about the rise of political tension and anti-DEI policies.
00:49:16
Speaker
How do we raise kids who stay grounded in who they are, even in these environments that might not reflect their values? You know, it's a great question. And there is an example in chapter two of a young man who was raised in a family that would be in the anti-DEI camp, right?
00:49:39
Speaker
Was raised in a white nationalist family. um And so he came to a college where he met people that he had not had a chance to get to know before.
00:49:51
Speaker
He got to know Jewish people. He got to know people of color. Some of those people became his friends. And through those relationships, he abandoned the um ideology that his parents espoused.
00:50:08
Speaker
Now, some people would say, well, he didn't hold true to the values of his family. And his family certainly was upset that he did not. um But from his point of view, he felt like he had
00:50:24
Speaker
learned more about the world and could see for himself that people that he'd been taught to mistrust or even to disparage were people who had something to teach him that he could learn from and that he did not want to leave those people out of his life.
00:50:46
Speaker
So in that sense, his values changed. Now, was that a good thing or was it a bad thing? um from my point of view, it was a good thing, right? Because he became more open, more welcoming.
00:51:00
Speaker
But from his family's point of view, it's not what they wanted him to do. was not what he they wanted to happen when he went off to college. It's not what they expected or wanted.
00:51:12
Speaker
So I think we have to Think about the fact that when we come to when ah when a young person enters a new learning environment, they're going to engage with people different from themselves.
00:51:25
Speaker
They're going to hear new ideas. They're going to learn history they didn't know before. They're going to have experiences that open their minds and their thinking may shift in ways that we can't always predict.
00:51:40
Speaker
That's part of the learning process. That said, if the values are values like keeping an open mind, being kind to others, you know, treating people the way you want to be treated, you know, i think you'll find that most institutions support and encourage that kind of social responsibility.
00:52:04
Speaker
Yes, I think that is so good advice. and And there was another thing that I loved that in your book was you introduced the ABCs of inclusive
The ABCs of College Leadership
00:52:14
Speaker
community. Yes, share a little bit about that.
00:52:17
Speaker
Yes, yes. So, you know. When I became dean back at Mount Holyoke in 1998, I had ideas about what I wanted to accomplish.
00:52:30
Speaker
And at the very first meeting of all of the staff who reported to me, I said to them, Our goal should be to affirm the identities of all of our students, to build a community where everyone feels included and we're all working toward a common goal, and where we are cultivating the leadership of the next generation of leaders. Our students, is that you know they are the next generation of leaders.
00:52:57
Speaker
And so we need to be thinking about how what we do collectively does that. How does it affirm identity? How does it build community? How does it cultivate leadership?
00:53:08
Speaker
And that question that I posed came to be known in that community and ever since as the ABCs. A, affirming identity. B, building community.
00:53:19
Speaker
C, cultivating leadership. We talked a little bit about the affirming identity part, the fact that we all want to be seen, heard, and understood and the identities that are most important to us.
00:53:32
Speaker
We all have a lot of identities. you know You can describe yourself as a mom, as a lifelong learner, as a spouse, as a woman, you know as a a veteran or ah part of a military family.
00:53:46
Speaker
um i can describe myself in lots of different ways too. some of those identities are more important to us than others. But the parts of our identity for me, if I say I'm a black female, I want people to acknowledge my blackness and also my femaleness.
00:54:01
Speaker
And, you know, and maybe also that, you know, I spent a long time in school and have a PhD and, you know, all those things are important. um But having said that,
00:54:13
Speaker
When we enter spaces, we want to feel as though we're being recognized and acknowledged in the identities that are important to us. Sometimes that's our racial identity, our ethnic identity, could be our religious identity.
00:54:25
Speaker
um An example of affirming a religious identity at Mount Holyoke, there was a Jewish population, not large, but, you know, the Jewish holidays, the Rosh Hashanah, Yom Kippur usually happen in September, sometimes early October.
00:54:45
Speaker
And it's common to celebrate the end of the fasting period with a meal called the Break the Fast meal. And I wanted to affirm the identities of our Jewish students to let them know that we saw and appreciated their presence by hosting a Break the Fast dinner for the Jewish student organization.
00:55:06
Speaker
They came to the president's house, we had that dinner. um And it was a lovely event and they could bring friends if they wanted to invite some friends who were not Jewish. But it was an opportunity to say, we see you, we recognize you, we acknowledge your presence at a time when you're having a special celebration.
00:55:25
Speaker
Let's acknowledge that. That kind of thing affirms identity. It also builds community when you bring people together, but it also models cultivating leadership. um Because if you haven't grown up in a very diverse community, you might not have had much opportunity to practice.
00:55:42
Speaker
You might not have had time to think about or practice thinking about what other people's needs might be. But when you see it modeled, you start to learn how to do it.
00:55:53
Speaker
And we want that next generation of leaders to be able to go out in the world and engage effectively with people whose life experience is different from their own. Absolutely.
00:56:04
Speaker
What gives you hope about this next generation and the mothers raising them? I think the fact that someone like you is having this podcast, meaning asking questions, you know, assume, not assuming you know everything, but trying to hear from folks who might give you a new perspective.
00:56:23
Speaker
I, not everybody I know has a podcast, but I know lots of women who are trying to do that. you know who recognize maybe they didn't have as much opportunity to get to know people outside of a particular demographic.
00:56:38
Speaker
And so they're reaching out to be what I call border crossers, to get to know people whose experiences are different from them. And moms who are brought border crossers, and I'm talking not geographically, but you know ah symbolically, moms who are border crossers have children who learn how to be border crossers.
00:56:57
Speaker
And that, whenever I see that happening, I feel hopeful. I love
Societal Benefits of Education
00:57:02
Speaker
this. Thank you, dr Tatum. This has been an incredible conversation, an empowering conversation.
00:57:09
Speaker
Is there anything else you would love to share with our listeners before we leave? What I would simply want them to remember to think about is that education is not just a private good.
00:57:21
Speaker
It is good for the individual, you know, gives you more opportunity economically. Many benefits come from a college education, but it's also important for our society.
00:57:33
Speaker
It's important for our democracy. It's important for our place in the global community that we're all a part of. And it's important for people who are learning to think critically, to apply that trained intelligence to the complex problems of our day.
00:57:50
Speaker
That matters to all of us. I love it And lastly, where can our listeners grab parallel and promise and connect with you further? At any bookstore near you, ah it's widely available.
00:58:04
Speaker
And for those who like to order online, bookshop.org will benefit your local independent bookstore. I always like to say that. well And i have a website, beverlydanieltatum.com. You can find me there.
00:58:19
Speaker
I will, I'll put all of this in our show notes below as well. And to the mama listening, i hope this episode gave you the space to breathe, reflect, and remember, you don't have to have it all figured out.
00:58:30
Speaker
You don't have to do it all perfectly, but you are called to lead right here, right now, whether you're raising a future future college freshman or stepping into your own next season, let this ah so episode be your reminder that leadership starts with presence.
00:58:44
Speaker
Go grab Dr. Tatum's book, peril and promise college leadership in turbulent times. The link is here in the show notes and this episode resonated with you. Please send it to another mom who's walking through the same season until next time. Keep leading, keep growing and keep believing in what is possible.
00:59:03
Speaker
You've been listening to Mamas Who Lead with Laura Carafino. Thank you for joining us on this journey today. Each episode, each story, and every piece of advice we share is a step towards building a community of empowered, resilient, and inspiring mama leaders, just like you.
00:59:21
Speaker
Remember leadership isn't just about the title or the workplace. It's about how we navigate our lives, uplift those around us and pave the way for future generations. As we close today's episode, I encourage you to carry forward the insights and inspiration you've gained.
00:59:37
Speaker
Apply them to your life, share them with your tribe and continue to lead with heart and purpose. For more empowering stories, strategies and support, make sure you subscribe to Mamas Who Lead on your favorite podcast platform. And don't forget to follow us on social media for behind the scenes content.
00:59:55
Speaker
community discussions, and much more. Until we meet again, keep embracing your unique journey of leadership and motherhood. You are capable, you are powerful, and you are exactly where you're meant to be.
01:00:08
Speaker
Lead on mamas.