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35- Can Laura Interest You In...Cultural Systems/Stories and How They Live in Us?
16 Plays16 hours ago
Our guest is Laura Hartley, founder of the Scintilla Centre, which offers classes, salons, and coaching for changemakers. She absolutely blows our minds with her interest—the ways we live out the stories of our cultural systems (even those we don’t align with or agree with). These include systems like capitalism and patriarchy, and stories about urgency and scarcity. She says we often forget our own power to make choices that don’t replicate these systems and that we can, instead, plant the seeds for something more just and regenerative. Yes, yes, yes!
Laura tells us about her inciting incident, which started with her work in climate activism. We hear how people trying to change the world can (and often do) end up mimicking the same energy and patterns of the systems they’re working against. We learn how changemaking starts with doing the work as individuals, rooted in our bodies. She teaches us how to “notice the water” of the cultural systems and stories we’re living in, and how to interrogate these stories.
Along the (fascinating!) way, we get into all sorts of topics, like:
Countercultural ideas versus straight-up conspiracy theories.
The concept of "right relationship."
Ways we’re taught to turn against ourselves, and who benefits when we do this.
Making changemaking something beautiful, both born of longing and yet, rooted in reality.
Even “healthy” concepts such as mindfulness, fitness, and spirituality get highjacked by the capitalist story of “growth at all costs.”
Do the homework along with us! (Preferably all the time, forever and ever) Here’s the homework:
1. Notice when you use the word “should.” Consider: What’s the story there? Is it true, does it benefit me, does it benefit others? What would happen if the story wasn’t true?
2. Notice your body at the same time. What does the “should” feel like? What arises when you interrogate the story?
3. Challenge your imagination. Ask yourself: Why not? What if? Let yourself dream.
Website: https://scintillacentre.com/
Newsletter: https://www.scintillacentre.com/#newslettersignup
Insta: https://www.instagram.com/laura.h.hartley/
Logo design by Marielle Martin
Song: Upbeat Drums with Stomps and Claps by music_for_video
BlueSky: @canweinterestyouin.bsky.social
Instagram: @canweinterestyouin
Email us your interests! CanWeInterestYouIn@gmail.com
Website: canweinterestyouin.com
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Transcript
Introduction & Guest Invitation
00:00:00
Speaker
You know that thing you love that your friends and family don't want to hear about anymore? Tell it to us, Patty and Charlotte. We want to learn all about your weird and wild obsessions or your perfectly normal hobbies that you've taken just a little too far.
00:00:15
Speaker
We want to dabble in your curious interests. Can we interest you in today's episode?
Introducing Laura Hartley: A Coach for Changemakers
00:00:35
Speaker
Hi, Patti. hi Charlotte. i want to introduce you to Laura, Laura Hartley, who is our guest today. And um i learned about her through one of my friends who, and I attended one of the many sorts of like free offerings that she has that are meant to support like people who want to make change in the world.
00:01:01
Speaker
And so she's a coach for changemakers and i feel like she's better than a therapist in my mind i often feel like I've gotten more from going to one of Laura's events or talking with than if I had found a therapist part of that's because my insurance doesn't cover it but anyway Laura thank you so much for coming oh my gosh
00:01:33
Speaker
hi what an introduction. i mean, thank you. I'm so excited to be here and to to chat with you guys. Thank you so much for coming. And we before we started the record, we were all kind of checking in to say where we were coming from. And Laura is calling in all the way from London.
00:01:51
Speaker
Yes. a Amazing. I think that might be our farthest away guest so far. Ooh, okay. Well, I mean, next time if I ever dial in again, I'll dial in from Australia and, you know, we'll just expand it further and further. there There'll be somebody in New Zealand one day. Well, and where are you from? Because it sounds Australian New Zealand to me, but. It is.
00:02:12
Speaker
Yeah. Yes. I'm originally from Sydney. I live in London now, ah but I've kind of done stencil over. Like I lived in Toronto for a while. I've lived in Amsterdam and Dublin and i love travel and seeing the world. So, you know, it's a great life that I get to live.
Burnout & Internalized Capitalism (Q&A)
00:02:27
Speaker
Oh, that's amazing. So Charlotte, what friend introduced you to Laura? And then what was the first event that you attended of Laura's?
00:02:42
Speaker
was my friend Elizabeth, who is a doctor. And so she is no stranger to to burnout. So it was, i believe, a burnout event about burnout, like thriving.
00:02:55
Speaker
Yeah. And it might have been in particular, I think the information about internalized capitalism that I really, like really resonated with me and I brought it into, it's at the time I was supervising therapists. So I like brought it into the supervising groups and individual sessions.
00:03:16
Speaker
So I thought that that was helpful for them. So in a lot of different ways, it was really helpful. I think you even talked a little bit about, i know you've talked to me about that topic and that event, but i I think you might have even touched on it in one of our episodes as well, because man, what a...
00:03:36
Speaker
What a topic, especially I feel like there's been renewed or new individuals kind of coming to the idea of um capitalism as a problem with the administration that we're in right now in the U.S. s at least and seeing kind of like, oh, wow, the power that they hold. And ah this always when I come to something like this, it always makes me think like I sound like a college student who's like, yeah, man, like capitalism. And your parents are meanwhile like, oh, welcome.
00:04:06
Speaker
We already know this. You're discovering this for the first time. but i think it was our it might have been the internalized family systems episode where we talked about it because it's I was talking about it in terms of like just the systems and the world and the stories that we tell. And then this was like, since we were talking about internalized systems as well, family systems.
00:04:27
Speaker
So Laura, obviously you're an interesting person, as Charlotte said, and already those were two pretty broad topics like burnout and internalized capitalism. But what is the what is the interest that you're going to bring to us and share with us today?
00:04:45
Speaker
Oh, gosh. You know, I actually think those are like two good places to start because they intersect with each other. But like, I'm interested in the wider cultural systems and stories that exist and how they live within us.
Activism, Scarcity & Urgency-Driven Systems
00:04:57
Speaker
You know, that's fundamentally what we're talking about when we're talking about internalized capitalism and burnout. How do the systems of patriarchy, systems like white supremacy, systems like capitalism, How do kind of cultural ideas around what is and isn't possible, how do they all not just exist out there as some like abstract idea or, you know, an economic policy, but instead actually live in our bodies?
00:05:21
Speaker
Like what are the ways they're influencing us in our so in our psyches, our values, our actions? So I thought it would be fun to explore. That seems like it does intersect a lot with the internal family systems idea then, because then it's really like turning inward and like noticing where it's living in our bodies.
00:05:41
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. You know, I'm not an IFS expert and I have to say that. So actually like, I'm super curious to hear about like your experiences with this too. And because like, it's true, these things do live in our body.
00:05:52
Speaker
ah They're very much, you know, we have all these expressions in the English language, like things like, you know, that's such a pain in the neck or, You know, butterflies in my stomach or, you all of these little things. have get it off my chest. I have to get off my chest. I have the weight of the world on my shoulders. You know, all of these, like we have them for a reason because like these things are real. It's in our body. But like often when we're disconnected from that.
00:06:16
Speaker
We feel powerless around what we can do. We continue to live out a system that we don't align with, that we don't agree with. And we forget that we have incredible agency in shaping our lives to be something that is beautiful and fun and wonderful and like, you know, really taking the opportunity to live the life that we want to live.
00:06:33
Speaker
And also actually influencing the wider world that we're a part of and the kind of moral responsibility that we have to creating something more beautiful. That part about like, that it transfers to the wider world is important. Cause I think that's part of what we've talked about with the burnout aspect of it is is sometimes it can feel like, I think so many people feel like, oh, it's selfish to to turn inward. Oh, looking at like how I want to live or like what I need to do is somehow not important enough, but then that it actually radiates out.
00:07:06
Speaker
Yeah, you know, I think so much of like how i how I came to this work is always like twofold. You know, there's a part of my kind of journey and story that like, I never in some ways fully know how to talk about, which is like my own experiences in like seeking this kind of path of wisdom and transformation.
00:07:24
Speaker
You know, I had a huge amount of like mental health difficulties and struggles when I was younger that really influenced the way I see the world. And then the relationship I have to stories and understanding them and how they live within us.
00:07:36
Speaker
But I also came to this work through my time in climate activism. And I think this maybe relates to what you were saying there, that people feel like, ah well, yeah, we're supposed to be like out there in the world. My gosh, have you looked outside? Everything is kind of burning and kind of urgent. And what are we going to do about it? And I don't have time to like look within and to do this nice work of deconstructing these pieces and to take time to be quiet.
00:08:00
Speaker
But instead, I actually think that that is one of the most important things we can do in this time alongside taking action. You know, a lot of the time in my experiences in grassroots organizing, we felt this incredible urgency for the work that we were doing, all of which was accurate because I mean, climate change, come on. And we felt this incredible kind of pressure on our shoulders to kind of do the work because often we were operating from a place of scarcity.
00:08:31
Speaker
There's not enough resources, there's not enough time, there's not enough people to do the work, there's not enough funding. We felt a sense of camaraderie and belonging with each other, which was really wonderful. But we also were like, well, we need to get more and more done.
00:08:47
Speaker
And often what ended up manifesting was we would work in ways that were really stretching and pushing ourselves. We would show up to meetings and calls every day after work, after a full-time job. Every weekend we'd be at a different action. um we would, particularly particularly for the women, this particularly female thing, like pick up all the extra admin tasks, all the extra things that need to be done. It's fine. I can do it just until like the next person comes on and then I'll let this go.
00:09:16
Speaker
And ultimately this way of working, this way of like really pushing ourselves, which didn't have any space for reflection, even though we talked about it, didn't have any space for listening to our body, even though we kind of intellectually knew that it was important.
00:09:31
Speaker
It was really rooted in scarcity and urgency, which are two of the pillars we can talk about with capitalism, led to burnout. People would end up feeling so exhausted so burnt out that it was hard to stay with a movement, that it was hard to stay active and engaged.
00:09:49
Speaker
And it would also lead to apathy and feeling powerlessness, which I think is the ironic thing. And so when we're talking about, oh yeah, no, I can't stop. I have to do all of this stuff on the outside now.
00:10:00
Speaker
Like I've been there. I really feel that it's it's really real when you're there. But at the same time, If we don't take time for that alongside the action, all we end up doing is replicating the system.
00:10:14
Speaker
Like all we end up doing is just replicating the exact same thing that we want to change. And so like, yeah, we have to do something different. Okay. That, like, I literally had to like open my mouth and push myself away from the table because That is so true. Like I hadn't put that together of like, oh, okay, cool. You've now created the system that is not working. That puts us in these positions of feeling scarcity, urgency, like inequity. And we don't just do it in activism. We do this everywhere. Like every kind of corporate structure is built on this. Our education system is often built on this. We are mimicking the exact same things that we're like, okay, this isn't working. This needs to change.
00:10:59
Speaker
We are mimicking the exact same energy, patterns, rhythms of systems that are harming this world. I always kind of say there's this is mirror between self and world. And so like all the things we can see on the outside from extractivism through to violence, to domination, they're also here in us as individuals.
00:11:19
Speaker
And if we don't do that work as individuals, we then start to replicate them in our communities. Oh, okay. So... Big topic for your Monday morning. So like, thank you for bearing with this.
00:11:36
Speaker
absolutely No, thank you for bringing this and the work that you're doing. But so, okay. Do you have an example in this grassroots group that you were working with on social activism? And it can be any point along the way where you recognize that as a group and then,
00:11:58
Speaker
We're conscious about saying, okay, hey, we're all doing the things that we've already been doing that got us here or didn't work.
00:12:08
Speaker
We need to kind of like – this is the second time I'm using this metaphor today. i love it. ah Be the Chicago fire because I'm from Chicago. So like burn it all down and then take advantage of the fact that it we are now starting fresh. And so instead of like cobbling together a Boston city – We are like, okay, what should this actually look like? Let's set up our grid system. Let's figure out how we make the lake accessible for everybody. you know like So have you had an example where you've been able to have that successfully work? And it doesn't even have to be like a long-term success necessarily.
00:12:47
Speaker
You know, if I'm going back to that particular time that led to me kind of experiencing this and having these revelations myself and, you know, kind of going down this path of starting to study and understand and teach, well, how do actually do this?
00:13:03
Speaker
I wish I could say yes. um I think we had the intellectual knowledge. Yeah. That's the truth, right? We did. we We knew the things like they were all there and like policies and things we talked about and You know, it was it was said, but what we didn't have wasn't knowledge. What we didn't have was the kind of wisdom and the capacity and the space to, or the self-trust for us to actually do things differently.
00:13:31
Speaker
Yeah. Because, you know, certainly for myself and I'll speak from my experiences here, you know, what came up a lot of the time was fear. Fear that maybe I wouldn't belong as much, that maybe like my belonging was based on my output and what I could produce that, you know, well, would I be as valuable if I said I can't do these things or that I need to take, you know a week off or something like that.
00:13:53
Speaker
Fear came up around kind of FOMO, right? That I wanted to be a part of this and everything was so exciting and like, I love this and this is like my favorite thing ever. Like, let me like dive into everything. yeah um And then actually being like, well, what am I going to miss out on when I might want to dive into everything, but I don't have the capacity to dive into everything.
00:14:17
Speaker
We could talk about, ah okay, well, we need this kind of culture that is based on principles of care, principles of regeneration. Principles where you can step back, where your belonging isn't based on this. But I don't think we'd have the practice of doing things differently. I don't think we'd really seen examples of being done
Self-Reflection & Personal Agency in Activism (Q&A)
00:14:38
Speaker
differently.
00:14:38
Speaker
Right. So it's like you had to create all of the ideation and structures and everything because every time that you've done something in the past, it's been in these ways to level to varying degrees of success or strength. stringency or whatever. But yeah, it's like to think completely differently.
00:15:02
Speaker
And what we're talking about is like this... we're talking about like being in relationship to something. Like I ran a salon recently, we were talking about this idea of right relationship and Charlotte, I think you might've actually been there for a little bit. So like, please like jump in. I'd be curious for this, but there is this concept, which I believe is kind of a Buddhist concept actually. So I had a guest kind of facilitator and speaker in who is more of an expert on this than me, but she was speaking about, you know being in right relationship as this process.
00:15:32
Speaker
And so much of what we're talking about here as well is being in relationship to a different way of being. It's an ongoing practice. And the moment the kind of pressure comes in, the pressure of like, oh, well, your funding is actually gonna be cut.
00:15:47
Speaker
Oh, well, you know, did you know that decision-maker's actually on holidays? So nobody can make this decision or it's fallen down here. Or there's a deadline, even though half these deadlines are arbitrary, like there's a deadline that somebody has set it's going to pass.
00:16:03
Speaker
That pressure comes in and then it's very hard to do things differently unless we have this practice of doing things differently. And I didn't have that at the time. That's something I've started to develop over the last several years.
00:16:17
Speaker
i could see where then the only thing you can really do is turn inward and notice like how to know what that right relationship is to maybe know how you need to feel in that relationship because otherwise,
00:16:33
Speaker
if practically everything around you is part of this system, it's going to be really hard to, to know when you are just going along when, I guess when you're not in the right relationship, because it's just easy to just kind of discount yourself and what, you know, maybe you need to do for like an order not to perpetuate.
00:17:03
Speaker
Scarcity, urgency. Because I do think it's easy to talk about. And then when it really comes down to it, it's so easy to say, oh but maybe I'm just being this way. Maybe I'm just whatever. And then discount those decisions and be like, maybe they're right and I'm wrong.
00:17:23
Speaker
Because it's countercultural. So this is one of the things, like if you want to be somebody who genuinely makes change in the world, We have to be able to do the outer work is important. The work of protest, the work of building new systems, the work of helping people who have been impacted by injustice, all of that matters.
00:17:40
Speaker
And we need to change the way in which we're doing that work because a lot of the time we're mimicking those systems. So like if we're then bringing it back to, well, like how do we actually do that?
00:17:52
Speaker
you how do we even start to recognize the water that we're swimming in? I think is like the first question that we have to ask. you know, we have this um story. Oh my gosh, I know this story. Who, I mean, I've totally forgotten whose story this is, which is actually really annoying because like, I know it so well and I say it all the time. So hopefully it's going to come to me or one of you two will know. But you know, it was the commencement speech a couple of decades ago. And he talks about like two young fish swimming along and in the opposite direction comes an older fish who kind of smiles and nods and tips his hat and, says, morning boys, how's the water?
00:18:24
Speaker
And of course the two young fish smile and nod politely and keep on swimming. And eventually one of them turns and looks at the other and says, what the hell is water? And like, that's the thing. We don't even know the water that we're swimming in half the time. And I think this is particularly so when we start to think about things like capitalism, when we start to think about, you know, a culture that is predicated and built on growth as success.
00:18:51
Speaker
Growth and success are not fundamentally synonymous, but we have attributed them to always be synonymous. But when we consider like the natural world, nothing really grows forever.
00:19:03
Speaker
If it does, it's not something that's usually, it's usually actually something like the cancer cell. It's not something that is incredibly like rooted in natural cycles that operate in seasons, that have a time for ebb, a time for flow.
00:19:18
Speaker
So how do we start to just notice the water that we're swimming? How do we start to notice where we're expecting ourselves to always be growing? Where if we're always supposed to be growing, where are we noticing scarcity? Because why would we grow if there wasn't scarcity?
00:19:34
Speaker
right What are we valuing? at at our expense of growing. Yeah. So how how do you – I mean, because I do feel like even, obviously, like experiences in the world. Because I remember when I met Charlotte, one of her friends mentioning like, oh, I just want to go and live like on a commune of just women and we'll all raise babies together because, you know, the patriarchy. And I was in my 20s and I was like, men aren't bad.
00:20:06
Speaker
Patriarchy, what? And now I like want to slap that girl. I won't because, you know, you didn't know any better and I'm glad you got here. But I'm like, oh, my God. But again, didn't even know what water was.
Questioning Cultural Narratives & Critical Thinking
00:20:20
Speaker
So what are your suggestions of like how do we how do we get more clued in to that?
00:20:29
Speaker
Mm, first of all, me too in my twenties. Like, you know, I was not somebody that like, you know, I, you know, went to uni and then came out with like, like this really radical worldview that was like, you know, smash the patriarchy and like, you know, down with capitalism. I like really came to like these understandings and these views like over a period of time and exactly the same. I look back now and I'm like, oh wow, just such a different world and such a different worldview that I had.
00:20:57
Speaker
Yeah. I think part of how we like come to understand the water that we're swimming in, there's a few things. There's one we can actually learn so people can kind of teach us. You know there's kind of these stories of capitalism that I break down, like what it's made of, and we start to think about it.
00:21:11
Speaker
Like, is that true? Where do I notice that? Where does that live in my communities? You know, oh okay, like how have I always seen it that way? I also think in other ways, just could hold the power of a good question, right? This interrogation piece of asking, well, why does this happen?
00:21:29
Speaker
Who benefits? You know, who doesn't benefit? Who is harmed by this? What would happen if we did things differently? This idea that, you know, we have this idea of the world is just kind of the way the world is.
00:21:41
Speaker
And like everything in this world was once imagined. It was made into being. Somebody created this. Somebody was once like, oh, it should be this way. So like start to interrogate. Why? What does that mean?
00:21:54
Speaker
It is interesting that you say interrogate because just being more politically aware, I guess, in the last o maybe decade or so, it's mind boggling to me how much I just took for, I was like, well, yeah, that's the decision that was made or they did that because of that.
00:22:20
Speaker
And the more the more i learn or read or so interrogate and kind of think about, well, like who is benefiting, it makes me feel a little, and I've said this before, oh my gosh, am I going conspiracy theorist? Like I sound, i I'm like, I'm sounding a little wild in my thoughts, but I'm like,
00:22:43
Speaker
Tell me more about that. It's counterculture. counter to what the norm is. And going to sound But that's so interesting, right? And this is something that you know we start to do. And it's important, like if we are heading into conspiracy theories, we should examine, is there a conspiracy theory? Because we don't want to end up there. But yeah, maybe I'm curious.
00:23:07
Speaker
Tell me more about that. Because so much of what we're talking about is so abstract. And this is one of the things when we always get into this space, it becomes like really, really like heady. And it's like this thing out there, but it's kind of in here. Like, where do I find that melting pot in the middle?
00:23:20
Speaker
But like, yeah, do you mind sharing? Like, what made you feel like it's conspiracy theories or that gas self gaslighting? Yeah, well, and and some conspiracy theories are...
00:23:32
Speaker
True. You know, like so it's like um but the one that kind of had me like, oh, most recently was when the U.S. s went into Venezuela and took their president. Right. And arrested him and brought him back to the U.S. and blah, blah, blah.
00:23:49
Speaker
A, I'm like, why aren't we hearing more about him? What's the latest? What's going on? And they also just came out with information that one of the people that was on one of the teams that went in to get him, like, made money on a betting app.
00:24:05
Speaker
It's like, oh, okay, so whoa, right? Like, that sounds crazy. This sounds like early episodes of Scandal, which was a great show. But... Then i was thinking about like, well, why why are we so hung up on Venezuela all of a sudden, right? Like, what are they connected to? And then I listened to an interview with someone who was like, well, Rubio really has his panties in a bunch about Cuba for forever. And so this is step one to get to Cuba. And because if they take away Venezuelan oil, then Cuba is totally screwed. And they'll be like put into, you know, turmoil. And then it's easier for us to like come in and take over. And I'm like, what? You know, all these like this is step one of a six part plan to like do horrible things. And then I'm like slowly watching these things play out. And so it feels crazy.
00:25:02
Speaker
And yet, and evil, it feels evil, um I think is kind of where some of the conspiracy feels like it comes, like where I feel like it's a little conspiracy theorist for me, because I'm like, no one's that evil.
00:25:17
Speaker
People are that evil. And like, just because it's evil doesn't mean it's not happening. And it probably, you know, I mean, it probably is. So that was one of the more recent ones that had me kind of feeling a little bit like, whoa, where am I headed?
00:25:33
Speaker
I mean, I think Venezuela also has some of the world's largest oil reserves as well, which is, a you know, no small ah sign of conflict of interest here. um But you're right, actually, there's been very little kind of updated on that in quite a while. So I haven't actually, like, heard very much about that case since, obviously, the kidnapping earlier this year.
00:25:53
Speaker
I think, you know, what's interesting there is Is it the doubt that people are can be evil? I mean, for me, there's always a great question around what evil is and where does evil come from? I tend to think people are always operating within their worldview. I don't see a fundamental evil gene that just some people are bad and irredeemable or anything like that that. people are incredibly complex and evil does exist and evil acts do exist in the world. I'm curious, and is it the the reality of facing evil acts that is uncomfortable or is it
00:26:30
Speaker
something that maybe is going against a worldview of people that you know. i hope you don't mind me asking this. No. These are incredibly like personal questions. But like this is part of how we see the water. This is part of how we start to understand like how do we think the way that we think?
00:26:45
Speaker
Yeah. What is influencing why I'm seeing it this way? Right. I think where the evil component comes into like questioning or like feeling like, oh, my God, am I going into a conspiracy theory right now?
00:27:00
Speaker
Because it sounds so far-fetched. You know, it sounds like the type of stories that you would see on QAnon where you're like, this guy, you know, Wayfair is not trafficking children by selling dressers for $10,000 on the website. Like, that's how I would have been before. I'm like, that's because there's that like evil component, you know, of like, oh,
00:27:28
Speaker
people And surely it's not just in such plain sight as well. Like, yeah. Right. Or like Pizzagate. You know, all those things, they felt crazy and evil.
00:27:40
Speaker
And so I think that's where it feels farcical. Oh, not farcical. That would be way too funny. Like it feels um ah like this tale that's being spun to kind of fear monger and things like that.
00:27:55
Speaker
Yeah. Right. And like the reality is like, look at project 2025. Like there absolutely is a plan. There is a long-term plan for how to act things out. So like, is there a six point plan for something? Yeah, probably. Also sometimes is there not, and it's just like a crazy idea. Absolutely. It's wild. Like trying to find the line between the two is like really interesting, but like, this is all these ways that we start.
00:28:18
Speaker
I think what's the most interesting thing there is when we start to doubt ourselves. Yeah. So when we start to say like, oh, well, maybe you're seeing this wrong. Maybe like the way you're looking at this is the problem. Maybe it's a conspiracy. And like, again, interrogate genuine conspiracies, please. Please don't take this as an endorsement of like conspiracy theories. But like that is this act of turning against ourselves that particularly as women, we are incredibly conditioned to do.
00:28:48
Speaker
And people benefit from turning against ourselves, right? The system as it is benefits because then we don't actually contest anything. People in power benefit because again, we start to make ourselves small. We start to say, well, I don't really know enough. I don't really understand it. I'm not really an economist. I'm not really a politician. I'm not an expert in global affairs. I don't know anything about war and the military. And like, actually, like, no, we're all human. We have a certain sense of being able to know what is right and wrong and question things and to sense also intuitively and in our bodies when something isn't quite adding up.
00:29:26
Speaker
I do think that when population is being gaslighted by a lot of the media, that conspiracy theories is no longer necessarily even the right term. It's just the information that's not being shared with us.
00:29:42
Speaker
So like being able to figure out is this information that is just being kept from us. Granted, you know, somebody's potential six point plan that we can't necessarily know, but it it means something different in this type of an environment. Well, it does, right? we live in an environment where like you can make anything with AI. How do you learn what to trust? And you have deliberate misinformation and you have disinformation. So like there are actively people out there who are putting fake stuff into the environment for you to believe something. And like, it it does become really hard to know what to trust.
00:30:19
Speaker
And this is particularly so again, like if we have this habit of distrusting ourselves and of like not listening to our intuitions, to our body, to what it's telling us, then we're more likely again to also struggle to challenge some of this stuff, to think critically about it, about where it's coming from and to find what is what we believe and know to be true to the best of our abilities and to what we not even just know to be true, but as to what we want to, what we understand about the world and the type of world that we want to be a part of as well.
Personal Burnout Experience & Sustainable Change
00:30:53
Speaker
Because then all of this,
00:30:55
Speaker
For me, I see this thread and like, maybe this is like going off a little bit wild and like, again, bear with me. But like in the same way we like distrust ourselves, I don't think that that's too far divorced from the idea of when you start to think or talk about a better world, being told you're a naive or a dreamer or an idealist or like, it's not rooted in anything real.
00:31:17
Speaker
and I'm like, well, no, this is all just ways you're taught not to trust this thing that is inside you and this little voice that is inside you. but so how I guess how did you come to realize these things like given all of the the kind of like very urgent kind of work that you were doing how did you get the space to be able to recognize these the water and the patterns and then to turn this into what you've turned it into which is teaching others about it like i'm just curious about
00:31:55
Speaker
how that came about. Yeah. No one moment and no one thing. i think there was a process, you know, on the one hand, you know, I had my own experience of, of burnout. I had lived in prolonged and chronic stress for a number of reasons that included things were happening in my family. you know, my sister was very unwell. I moved countries one too many times in a short period of time. And I was very stressful. It's a wonderful thing, but very stressful and very expensive. Um, and,
00:32:27
Speaker
I felt all of this pressure from just all of these different aspects, from the urgency of change work, from like being a part of this thing, from pushing my body past any sort of limit, because to be honest, for most of my 20s, I had no idea what was happening in my body. I was completely disconnected. I lived very, very neck up.
00:32:44
Speaker
And so I didn't notice any of the tension in my shoulders or in my back and, you know, things that even now I'm still really learning how to pay attention to. I've had plantar fasciitis, which is like this pain in your foot for like the last year. And if there's one thing I've learned about it is it doesn't just come from the foot. Like it comes from all of these other parts of your body and like this posture of bracing that I didn't realize I had.
00:33:09
Speaker
I had this real experience of stress, the impacts of that in my body, needing to start to take this seriously, where it wasn't just something I can be like, oh, okay, well I've got a headache or I'm a bit stressed or I'm a bit tired. i'm like, no, this is physically playing out in my nervous system. That's not sustainable. That's not going to serve me.
00:33:27
Speaker
I also think I came to these questions around impact for all of our strategy and our heart and our tactics and our gumption and like all of that. Was I having the impact that I wanted to have?
00:33:40
Speaker
Like realistically, no. And that's complex. You know, there's many reasons for that, but Then I had to question, well, what are all these spiritual foundations to change that I understood?
00:33:53
Speaker
Which includes, you know, you cannot keep making change from the same energy. You can't keep like just pushing against a door and expecting it to like pull open. You have to like work with a certain energy. You have to have a certain flow that's being in relationship to life.
00:34:08
Speaker
And I was like, well, am I kind of acting that way? Am i embodying? the world that I want to see? is Are the experiences in this world that I want to see of peace, of justice, of love, of care, of well-being, do they have any sort of seed in my body right now?
00:34:25
Speaker
Or are they just things that out there I'm saying should exist? And a lot of the time they did not have a seed, right? And so I had to really interrogate that. So like it was this long kind of journey that I wish had like this wonderful narrative arc that I could tell you all.
00:34:41
Speaker
But like just lots and lots of questions and stories and ideas that would come to me and that I would start to do this work within myself, within my body. I'd start to kind of question the environments that I was a part of and what they looked like and what we were operating on.
00:34:57
Speaker
And then ask questions, how can we do this differently? And it's interesting that you say that because I'm thinking about different groups that I'm in, including like, a you know, work, but different groups that I'm in where I regularly will, like you said, you know, be like, okay, I'll take on that admin stuff or I'll just do this and I'll just, oh yeah, it's not sustainable. Oh my God, we're working so hard. And and it is like,
00:35:27
Speaker
you know And not work, but other groups that I'm part of where it's like, this is this is important and it is urgent and it does need to be done right now. And yet, the group way that we're doing this, to your point, is...
00:35:45
Speaker
not sustainable and also allowing for few people to be burdened with all of the, like the majority of the work, resentful that others aren't really contributing, not really taking a moment to check in and see like, why aren't you? If you say you want to be part of this group and part of this work and and help, why aren't you? You know, to figure out like, maybe it's not an environment that people are feeling welcomed in or know how to interact with, or it looks so unappealing the way the way that we're, the ones who are doing it are doing it. It's like, why would I want to, why would I want to that? Well, that's a big thing. Like you look out there and you're like, oh, that looks like really unhappy and angry and sad and exhausting. And I don't have capacity for that. Like I, I have to work and like, you know, I have bills to pay and I have like mouths to feed and like, you know, I, I want a holiday sometimes and a weekend and right know this is the thing. and I'm like, okay, well, like how do we make change making something that is beautiful, something that is born of longing, something that is rooted in reality. We're not denying reality in any case. We're never denying injustice, but, We're also planting the seeds of something more just, something more regenerative inside the way that we're working.
00:37:12
Speaker
Because that that's how something is actually born, right? We create the conditions for it. We start to kind of play with it. It's how you would work in nature. You know, you wouldn't just like expect there's something to come out of nothing. If you have dead soil and you don't look after it and you don't kind of offer it the nutrients that it needs, it's not gonna grow what it needs to grow.
00:37:31
Speaker
So we're all just like tending to this like collective soil that we're a part of, but that has to include our bodies. It has to include us because especially as women, we are conditioned to think that it's something outside of us is always more important.
00:37:48
Speaker
And if we believe that story, the systems stay exactly as they are. If we believe that story, we, end up tired.
00:37:59
Speaker
We end up small. We end up self-doubting. We end up hiding our dreams, right? Which is like such a like sad thing for us to do to feel like we can't share those things that are vulnerable to us.
00:38:11
Speaker
And we never get to plant the seeds that we need to plant.
Reimagining Cultural Foundations
00:38:13
Speaker
So we have to kind of do this work of tending to ourselves so that we can go forward. Yeah. It seems to me that that's almost...
00:38:22
Speaker
the only way, going back to what you were saying about right relationship, the only way that we can really do that work continuously is to turn inward and and notice that over time. Because I'm thinking of so many types of like changes or communities or like even you know somebody somebody writes a um a self-help book that's like about something that you know can be really transformative or beneficial and then they're asked to write another book and then another book and then go on tour and like just something that starts as healing and spacious and then slowly the creep begins onto that and then like you know i used to work
00:39:21
Speaker
at community mental health centers. And it's very much like it starts with, we want to serve the community. And then it's like, we got to also keep the lights on. And then it's like, what are your numbers? What are your numbers? How many people are you seeing? It just, the creep it is so strong. Sometimes you have to be able to have some sort of solid foundation to check back in with.
00:39:58
Speaker
think that's great thing. think that's a great think that's great thing. I think that's great thing. think that's great thing. kind of above nature or we not quite nature there's a sign at a te that something called the biodomeme in montreal is' like this massive sign And it says humans and the natural world are on a collision course. And I can't stand that sign because it's, it it's talking about climate change, but like deeply problematic. It's not an event, but also we are the natural world.
00:40:30
Speaker
But these ideas well, this creep that, you know, we're separate from nature, that violence And in particular, like gratuitous violence, like unnecessary violence and domination are just part of life and just a natural thing of being human, that it's impossible for us to operate without it.
00:40:51
Speaker
That growth is always success, that we don't have enough, that scarcity is always present, that you need to be, do, have, give more in order to be successful. All of these are stories and all of these inform the creep, but these stories belong to culture.
00:41:07
Speaker
They are not actually like innate of being human. There are other cultures on this planet that have existed without having these same stories kind of as prevalent in their understanding of the world as we do.
00:41:21
Speaker
yeah We have to recognize that in this time of the world, when we're going through this fundamental reshaping, everything in the world is changing and everything in the world will be changing, very much so, particularly for the next 10, 20, 30 years.
00:41:36
Speaker
We're gonna be feeling this quickening of all of these stories, of all of these myths, of all of these ideas, because they're coming to the surface, right? And they're there and they're increasingly kind of showing their head and we have to recognize then, well, how do I choose to respond to that?
00:41:52
Speaker
What do I want to do in the face of this knowledge? Part of it, they're going to be there. And, you know, this is my work even now is like, oh it's still there. The time scarcity is still there. It's, I still feel like, oh, I've got that that tense shoulders or something I need to like let go of.
00:42:09
Speaker
But can we make conscious choices to do something different and to experiment with doing something different? Like to let ourselves really play with this idea.
00:42:19
Speaker
What would we build our culture on or our ways of working on if it wasn't extraction and if it wasn't endless growth and if it wasn't urgency?
00:42:33
Speaker
What would our infrastructure look like? What would our decision-making techniques look like? what wisdom would we, would we honor, right? Would we just be doing things from the head? Would we include the body?
00:42:44
Speaker
Would we include the natural world? I'm not saying any of this is like a definitive answer, but we have this great opportunity to kind of play with different ways to really reimagine things.
00:42:56
Speaker
And if not now, when? Do you, and it's fine if not, I mean, everything is fine, but do you have any historical or existing cultures? Because I love that you said these stories belong to the culture that you feel like, oh, they had this much better. Like I'm thinking about like native people.
00:43:20
Speaker
of course there were issues, But I'm like, oh, they had it right in some ways of what the little that I know where it's like we live in community. We go out and get what we need, but we're not doing too much extra or whatever. So I'm just wondering if you have any in asking those questions, cultures that you're like, oh, I like I really think that they're doing this portion of of life well. Yeah.
00:43:49
Speaker
You know, I won't say any one culture in specifically. i i think I will always highlight indigenous cultures are like, you know, often far more in a better relationship with the natural world than we are.
00:44:03
Speaker
And there's also a danger then of like exactly just saying glorifying or romanticizing other ways of being as like these things. But You know, the reality is you could look at Robin Wall Kimmerer's work and her wonderful book, Braiding Sweetgrass, where she talks a lot about this idea of reciprocity, right? And a culture built on reciprocity.
00:44:24
Speaker
And that's a beautiful example. I wouldn't say we live in a culture built on reciprocity. I wouldn't say our working patterns, our economy is built on that. And so what would it look like if it was, and this might even be like locally, like what if I was in a a spirit of reciprocity with the people, with my neighbors, what would that look like?
00:44:45
Speaker
you We can look at our relationship to time. You know, very often in our culture, we see time as this like chronically short thing that's like we're always racing against and there's never quite enough of. And we kind of see this as long linear line. And, you know, other cultures have had very different understandings of time. They've seen time as cyclical.
00:45:06
Speaker
They've seen time as something that is malleable. They've seen time as a river. And the question is whether you're looking upstream or downstream is also very relevant there.
00:45:17
Speaker
So like, how does all of this just start to influence us? You could look at the very root in so many religions of, you know, being in right relationship. That term comes from kind of, I believe, Southeast Asian and Buddhist religions. But that idea of being in good spirit, in good stead, of good relationship to something is something that has existed across cultures.
00:45:42
Speaker
So how are we practicing this in a way not to... appropriate other cultures not to go back to some magical mythical past, but instead to actually say, well, yeah, this doesn't have to be this way.
00:45:58
Speaker
Right. Right. We've made it this way, but we can choose something else. So what are the things we want to bring forward? Right. And that there's proof that it can be a different way and function. Yeah. Yeah. just expand our possibilities. Yeah. even within Europe, there's different cultures that have, you know, different understandings of like time and being a way you can kind of have longer for lunch and a bit more experiences and, you know, a little less of the hustle culture, even though it's still very pervasive across Europe.
00:46:26
Speaker
Like, so there's, there's all these different ways that we can start to kind of play with this idea. It's so interesting because if I think about that and this has been, this has been the case for a while where I'll notice thinking about in Europe, there's more of a let's get together and just enjoy each other's company over a meal and some drinks. And that's what we're going to do with our free time instead of hustling to get ahead.
00:46:59
Speaker
And then there's a part of me that comes in and says, but i really want to get ahead or i really want to have success in this realm.
00:47:10
Speaker
and and And it feels like it feels more than like want to. What does it mean to get ahead?
Capitalism, Personal Growth & Spirituality
00:47:17
Speaker
Yeah. i mean, for me, what it means like writing a novel and getting it published. But I mean, part of that is you know, the stories of the culture and wanting to to write that. But like, part of it is like, I just want to know what it feels like to be on top.
00:47:32
Speaker
or But that's, but that's, a like I don't, maybe there is this part of being on top, but like wanting to write a novel and have it published isn't just about like winning and being on top. That's also like a genuine calling. Like there is a book within you that wants to be written.
00:47:46
Speaker
Like, it's also like, there's this line between like, yeah, how do I honor the things that actually want to come forth that I want to create in this world? And then create them, right? Because we're not just sitting passably on the sidelines and do the things we're supposed to do, but in a way that also honors our capacity, that doesn't override our body, that doesn't say, oh my God, when my fingers are cramping and my back is all hunched or I'm exhausted and I'm like, I must write. Like, you know, that we actually like, okay, no, I need to like go be in nature and get creative time.
00:48:18
Speaker
and then Or the opposite, like if I'm in nature and then I'm like, relax more, you know, maybe that's not what I need at that moment. Yeah, no, exactly. It's true. Start enjoying yourself now. you have a limited time. but Yeah, yes this is, I often say this again when we talk about capitalism, like even mindfulness or fitness become hijacked to the narrative of growth at all costs.
00:48:47
Speaker
So like when we talk about capitalism and its story, we're talking about three things. We're talking about the pursuit of growth above anything else. We're talking about scarcity because if you want growth, the number one driver of growth is scarcity. If you feel satiated and like like you're really satisfied and you have enough, why are you pursuing more?
00:49:06
Speaker
It's a really poor driver of it. So you always have scarcity if you need growth. And then you have the devaluation of like our beautiful living body to seeing it as a resource, something you can extract from.
00:49:17
Speaker
That is one of the narratives that underpins our economic system. But that spreads throughout life. And so when you're looking at fitness and mindfulness, you see that same energy.
00:49:29
Speaker
Like if you Google mindfulness, I guarantee you you're gonna find an article on like five ways it can make you more productive. yeah If you look at fitness, you'll see a culture that is less about like loving your body and moving your body, although that exists so much more than it used to, but also about like, leave it on the floor and like, give it everything you've got. You know, you have to, you know, just push through and hustle. And it's like, wow. Okay. That's really intense. Like, does my body need to be in that level of stress just to like benefit from exercise? What is this?
00:49:59
Speaker
So like all of these they exist and live in us in so many different ways. even the way we're approaching spirituality or inner work. Yeah. There's always a, I think there's the risk of spirituality or inner work being like, okay, I need to fix this thing about me. I need to, this thing is broken and I need to find a way to like make it better. I need to be the best that I can be the most enlightened human.
00:50:26
Speaker
Yeah. Because again, I think if we're looking at this kind of culture that we're a part of and its stories, you also have one that is very mechanistic. where things are kind of based on atoms. You have that like Cartesian split where it's like mind and matter. And it's like, well, you know, how can we break things down to the tiniest bit?
00:50:44
Speaker
And so then when we're like, something's not well within us, we're not happy, we're not feeling liberated, we're not feeling whole. We're like, oh, well, something must be wrong. Something must be broken. And we're like, I need to fix or repair or better myself because again, growth is success. You need to always be on this upward trajectory, you know, which is completely...
00:51:04
Speaker
excuse my language, completely bullshit. Like a real human life has periods of loss and periods of grief and periods of darkness and periods where you don't know what you're doing.
Listener Homework & Episode Conclusion
00:51:14
Speaker
And then wonderful periods of like expansion and moving forward and joy. But it's a wholeness that really is what is important. But these these stories all live within us.
00:51:27
Speaker
And so like when we start to examine, well, ah, what are the ways in which I thought life is just this like thing I can just divide into like atoms and molecules and all these kind of other breaking down bits.
00:51:40
Speaker
How might that actually start to impact the way I see myself?
00:51:46
Speaker
Do you, Laura, have any homework specific for us? Because, man I'm, antsy to get like into this topic.
00:51:59
Speaker
Two things, because this has been a massive conversation. I really, really want to highlight I have jumped around to like 15 different ideas and like it is so much to take in. What I will say is two things, you know, one is notice every time you use the word should.
00:52:13
Speaker
Okay. Those are always good indicators to our stories. We inherit at these stories from family, from faith groups, from culture, from school, you know, from media, all of these different places.
00:52:25
Speaker
But every time we say the word should, we have a story there. Is it true? Does this story benefit me? Does benefit others? um What would happen if this story wasn't true? would i What would feel liberatory when I think about maybe if this story wasn't actually true?
00:52:40
Speaker
And like should can easily be replaced it with like some other things they're like supposed to. So start to notice them. And the second is notice your body at the same time.
00:52:51
Speaker
In the same way I started this like conversation with the fact that these things live within us, right? The tight shoulders, the weight of the world in our shoulders, the the pain in my neck or anywhere else. Start to notice your body.
00:53:03
Speaker
What is it feeling? what What actually do you feel in your chest, in your belly, in your arms, if you start to think of something different? If you say, well, what if this wasn't true?
00:53:15
Speaker
What would feel liberatory right now? And let your body exp expand. And just kind of see if there's an inkling of down those paths, because this is never about some way of rewriting every cultural story of doing the work outside of us. It's always about the work we can touch.
00:53:36
Speaker
So start here, I think. I think that's kind of good homework. They'll be curious to kind of see if you start to notice anything else that comes up for you. One other thing, which I'm just going to throw in there, which I hadn't planned to. ah This is a broad thing and challenge your imagination.
00:53:53
Speaker
Ask yourselves, why not? What if? Like we live in a culture that has a failure of imagination right now. So like, That really feeds into the shoulds and the supposed tos in your bodies.
00:54:06
Speaker
Let yourself dream. I love that homework. And it feels very in line with um homework that like my therapist has been giving to about like the whole body, like check in with your body. And as someone who even when I go to the dentist and they're like, OK, and then if you can just move your tongue out of the way and I'm like, where's my tongue?
00:54:23
Speaker
I have no, I have control over that. Like, I have no idea. So someone who's very out of tune with her body, ah it's, it's a challenge and it's, but it's practice, you know, you get better with practice.
00:54:37
Speaker
It is a practice. All of this is a practice, right? It's never a one and done. It's like just bringing more awareness and often it's very uncomfortable. Yeah. Like that's the thing. We're not aware of it because like, Oh damn, I'm like all tight and niggly. And I don't, I don't want to focus on this. I or like, I feel heavy and weighed down, but why not bring awareness and then let things see what emerges.
00:55:01
Speaker
I love that. That's going to be, I think just a very spacious and just really nice feeling assignment. I don't know how how to say that, but like,
00:55:14
Speaker
I'm already imagining. Oh, I'm already imagining. Look at you using your imagination. me I know. I love it. Well, I want to hear how this goes, but I am so grateful for like having had this conversation, which has gone in so many different directions. So like, thank you so much for like having me on and, and taking on this homework and this interest in running with it.
00:55:42
Speaker
Thank you. I mean, for coming on and blowing our minds with knowledge. Yeah. Sharing all of this with us. Like it's a lot of work and learning that you've done. so thank you for sharing that.
00:55:58
Speaker
All right. So I think we have our homework, Charlotte. Yes. I'm ready. And stay interesting. And stay interested. me Bye. Bye.
00:56:09
Speaker
Thanks for listening to today's episode. Please subscribe, comment, and like the podcast. Follow us on Blue Sky Social at CanWeInterestYouIn. Send us an email at CanWeInterestYouIn at gmail.com. And join us next time.