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36- Cultural Systems/Stories and How They Live In Us: The Follow-Up
21 Plays2 days ago
In this episode, Charlotte and Patti debrief the homework given to them by Laura Hartley, founder of the Scintilla Centre, coach for changemakers, and all around brilliant thinker.
First, we jump into our check-ins, and get updates on Charlotte’s journey to find an agent for her novel.
Then, the question: would you want to know when and how you were going to die?
Patti tells us about pool time with her (human) family, plus, her growing family of mini non-human animals.
Charlotte updates us on her half marathon experience and the absolute miracle she witnessed.
At about 25 mins, we get into the homework.
The Homework:
1. Notice every time you use the word “should.” Consider: What’s the story there? Is it true, does it benefit me, does it benefit others? What would happen if the story wasn’t true?
2. Notice your body at the same time. What does the “should” feel like? What comes up when you consider what would happen if the story wasn’t true?
3. Challenge your imagination. Ask yourself: Why not? What if? Let yourself dream.
Here are a few of the (American) cultural stories we interrogate:
If you’re passionate about something, you should try to be the best at it, you should try to monetize it.
Not everyone gets or deserves to have their basic needs met.
Bigger is better.
More is better.
Success has a static definition (money, numbers, etc)
We also discuss:
How the idea that anything could be possible can feel overwhelming, and consider whether that prevents us from dreaming up better ways of living.
Seeding ideas, rather than trying to “solve” everything.
Focusing on mindset and energy or approach.
Talking to kids as an entry point to questioning our assumptions.
Ways that we learn to discount our own intuition, and how can we can relearn how to trust ourselves.
Example: Action St. Louis, a grassroots organization that arose to combat the failures of the government in addressing tornado damage in North City, St. Louis.
Can we work within the literal system of capitalism without internalizing the cultural stories of capitalism?
Which industrial complexes benefit from which stories?
“Shoulds” that we actually should follow. (Warning: we go down some weird paths.)
Level of Integration Scores (LOIS). Ways to continue engaging in this work.
And, accessibility!
Website: https://scintillacentre.com/
Newsletter: https://www.scintillacentre.com/#newslettersignup
Insta: https://www.instagram.com/laura.h.hartley/
Action St. Louis: https://actionstl.org/
Logo design by Marielle Martin
Song: Upbeat Drums with Stomps and Claps by music_for_video
BlueSky: @canweinterestyouin.bsky.social
Instagram: @canweinterestyouin
Email us your interests! CanWeInterestYouIn@gmail.com
Website: canweinterestyouin.com
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Transcript
Introduction and Personal Updates
00:00:00
Speaker
You know that thing you love that your friends and family don't want to hear about anymore? Tell it to us, Patty and Charlotte. We want to learn all about your weird and wild obsessions or your perfectly normal hobbies that you've taken just a little too far.
00:00:15
Speaker
We want to dabble in your curious interests. Can we interest you in today's episode?
Charlotte's Manuscript Journey
00:00:36
Speaker
Hi, Charlotte. Hi, Patti. How are you? ah I'm doing all right. This morning I got a another rejection for my manuscript from an agent. And while I know i'm gonna there's going to be a bunch, it's just like never great fun. But it's like there's there's like the good feedback and everybody's always like, oh, if you get any kind of feedback,
00:01:05
Speaker
yeah I mean, and even having your manuscript requested is great. Feedback is great, but it's like, ultimately, it's still a no. Right. ah It just feels meh. But I have already been planning to do another revision and and like a smaller, hopefully revision before I send out any other query letters. But I have, i mean, I still have a few people who have the manuscript.
00:01:41
Speaker
So it's like, there's still some sort of hope, but right I think it's in need of another something. another. using um and And so, yeah, I'm so sorry that that must be just hard. Even if you logically can tell yourself all those other things, it's like, it's still physically in sucky. And I'm curious, the revision that you're going to make, does that, is that to incorporate some feedback you received or just feeling like thoughts that you've had?
00:02:15
Speaker
It's going to incorporate some feedback. And just the parts of feedback that that are like resonating with me, like I do think that it could be a little bit more... Because nowadays, your your novel has to like make people want to read and read and read.
00:02:41
Speaker
Like there's not a lot of room for there to be not ah like plot, and not necessarily plot excitement, but just that you're like enticed to want to read on to figure out like, what happens here? Why did this person do this? Like what's going to happen with them? And i think that there just could be a little bit more of that in mine. And the stakes are maybe a little bit not good enough.
00:03:15
Speaker
Raise the stakes. Raise the stakes. I have always have a little bit of trouble with that because I understand in books at what point the stakes make me feel like, oh my gosh, I'm really invested now or, ooh, that's interesting. But then when it's your own, it's harder to to recognize, like, is that going to the same for somebody else? Yeah.
00:03:39
Speaker
Right. And because it's a different kind of cadence because it's not new to you. So yeah it feels like it's just an entire, i would imagine, like an entire world that you live in versus like this start to finish plot, like story that you're reading.
00:03:58
Speaker
Right. Like for me, I'm like, oh, people will want to keep reading because it's just delightful. isn't it isn't it and that's so not that's not always why people want to read and also maybe it's not delightful enough to keep people wanting to read they need to know like hello is this person's life going to be over or not?
00:04:25
Speaker
yeah ah but Okay. Yes. That's, that's stakes raised and there has, it has to be, and how is their life over? Like not just a, oh, they lived a nice long life. How nice. Yeah. Yeah.
00:04:40
Speaker
The book that I'm reading right now is the second in a series. And the first one was – I'll find the title. Hold on for a second. So the first in the series was called How to Solve Your Own Murder. Yeah. And i can't remember how I came across it. You know, i add it to my Goodreads list and then I'll check my Goodreads list against the library and whatever's available is what I'll go get. So this is now How to Seal Your Own Fate. And so it's the second in the series. But the first one, How to Seal Your Own Murder, was this woman who...
00:05:16
Speaker
peony lane so a play on penny lane but the word the flower peony she was this kind of mystic who told francis that she was going to die by being murdered like she was going to be murdered and so francis's entire existence was then trying to avoid being murdered which is hard to do And in the end, like she, she did get murdered spoiler, but she also lived an incredibly long life. So, you know, it's like, well, also you we all know we're going to die. So I guess, does it matter how right?
00:06:00
Speaker
Like I'd prefer not to be murdered, but like you said, it could be at the very end of life. Anyway, that's probably not the point. Uh, but That's a pretty good stake.
00:06:13
Speaker
I also, yes, a good stake. And I also would not want to know how I, i don't want to know how, how I'm going to die or when I'm going to die. Don't want to know. How about you? ah Yeah. I want to know when I'm going to die because oh I am an, yeah, I'm an incredible procrastinator. So it was, that information would really help me. It's like a good motivator. Like, Hey, don't wait, just do it now. Yeah.
00:06:37
Speaker
Well, kudos to you, A, for getting getting a book finished, for sending it out to agents, and for now making changes. That's yeah just your persistence. It's very impressive.
00:06:52
Speaker
Thank you. It helps that I know and am prepared for an incredible amount of rejection. And it's very good exposure therapy for anybody who does not like rejection, which is pretty much everybody. yeah it's It's very, i mean, potentially, good exposure therapy, but potentially traumatic and not, you don't want to ever do it again. And that's understandable too.
00:07:21
Speaker
So it might not cure you of not wanting to be rejected. Yeah. Right. Right. You gotta, you gotta know and expect it and know it's part of the process and that it doesn't necessarily have to mean that that's going to be the outcome forever.
00:07:38
Speaker
And, uh, how are you?
Patty's Family Time and Hobbies
00:07:41
Speaker
I am okay. My parents were here this weekend. It was kind of cute. My mom was just like, I just miss you guys. So I asked your dad, like, can we drive down to St. Louis? So they came on Friday and then they left this morning. So it's always so, it feels so short, but it was lovely to have them here. And then the Emilio and Layla came with me on a walk.
00:08:02
Speaker
We took Bosco for a walk and we were all so just too hot. Like, It wasn't, you know, it was 11 o'clock in the morning and it was already so thick. So then we went to the pool and David came with us too. And that was really fun. We went to the, the YMCA has a pool and it's kind of become a little bit of a tradition that we go at least one of the days of the weekend. And so today I was like, we can only spend an hour because I need to get back in time for an appointment. So that was good. But man, being in the pool, just it felt so like I, I, there's no diving allowed. So I was like in the pool and then like dove under the water. And I was like, when you're just hot, and then you get to like, refresh yourself in cool water, there's few things better than that feeling. It was just so nice.
00:08:53
Speaker
That is nice. I kind of want my goal or a goal over the next year to to resemble your goal of learning to do that flip in so the water. I kind of just want to learn to swim correctly.
00:09:10
Speaker
Yeah. I'm thinking that might be good because you're right. It's so nice when you can just be, it but like when I'm in the water, it's, there's a lot of flailing. There's a lot of like, there's a lot of me thinking that maybe this is it. And I'm going to This is it.
00:09:34
Speaker
She went out doing something. She didn't really even enjoy that much. Um, Well, the nice thing, i I know that they say you can drown in even just like an inch of water, but the nice thing about this pool, yes, there are lanes that are go from five to nine feet, but where the kids section is and like where we were is all pretty much three feet.
00:09:55
Speaker
And there's a section where it's three feet, six inches, because that's where the big slide comes out. So by and large... I'm not even swimming. you know I'm standing or like making myself float or I'm on my knees you know just to enjoy the water. but That sounds good. And there's a lifeguard. That sounds even better. Yes. And today there were – so there are usually a mix of genders of lifeguards. Today it was both boys – They were definitely less than paying attention. Like there were a few times where because I was with three of them and David knows how to swim, but you know, I like to keep track of all three of them. So I'm constantly like looking around if I'm not with all three of them. And then I'd look at the lifeguard and be like, Oh, you are not, you are currently looking up at the ceiling where no one is swimming.
00:10:50
Speaker
yeah. okay know this one kid just kept like biting his nails and like kind of look looking at them and i was like are they waiting for screaming or how are they gonna know when something happens yeah right because they say so um drowning is incredibly quiet it's not s flailing and things like that so wonderful and yeah um And I got another new fish. So I know I said in a different recording that'll come out after this, that I now have a fish tank, a 10 gallon fish tank, because upstairs they have guppies and
00:11:33
Speaker
the gupp be The one guppy just kept having babies, so I took some of them. And yesterday I went to get some plants to add to the tank, and so i let David choose his own fish. So there's a new fish in the tank, and the tank looks lovely. It's very nice to have it there.
00:11:53
Speaker
Very nice. You have like ah ah sort of like a zoo of mini animals, like guppies and worms. true you should get like an ant farm too just oh my gosh that's funny because Layla said she wanted I was feeding the fish up the worms yesterday and she said can I make a worm well first she said can I have one of them as my pet I'm like they can all be your pet but they just live here in this these containers but then she wanted to make
00:12:26
Speaker
a hotel for
Creative Ideas and Childhood Memories
00:12:29
Speaker
worms. And I was like, that would actually be really cool if the furniture was made out of food because then like they'd come to it. A little ottoman made out of a strawberry. And then it's like, ottoman's gone. ate it.
00:12:46
Speaker
But yeah, an ant, that that would, an ant, um what are those? Yeah. Ant farms. You're right. I think, yeah. Ant farms. i mean you could also do what were those little do you remember when we were younger and there were different kinds of little pets you could have i mean or there was like chia pet but there was also the little thing where you add water and then the little shrimpies would turn into actual living moving animals
00:13:18
Speaker
No, I knew the ones that were like in those capsules. And if you added water, they like, they were dinosaurs basically, right? And so then it like came out of the capsule, but those were made out of foam. Wait, so there was something that was a fish?
00:13:30
Speaker
I mean, a shrimp? I think so. it would be like a little swimmy thing. I'm going to look for for that and find it because I remember that. I cannot remember what the what the heck. should Should we look it up now? Well, and the the way that you just moved made me think, were sea monkeys a real thing? Oh, yeah. Sea monkeys. That's what it was. wow A hybrid of brine shrimp sold as novelty pets.
00:13:58
Speaker
Uh-huh. Their eggs can remain in suspended animation for years. oh When placed in warm salted water, they hatch into active aquatic pets within 24 to 48 hours. That is insane. Wow, these are weird looking. They are. I had some when I was younger.
00:14:19
Speaker
Oh, how cool. Yeah. And I remember the the term. And then I'm now looking at all of their habitats that, you know, are definitely sold geared at children. And what a cool idea. Okay. How long does a sea monkey live though? ah Oh, one to two years.
00:14:39
Speaker
Okay. good Although they only live for months. well Duh. Like it could live for a day too. That would be very sad to give children ah pet that just lives for a day.
00:14:53
Speaker
you're going be so happy. Like goldfish from a Yeah, true. That's interesting because at the pet shop, they did have shrimp. And I've been seeing a lot of information when I look up stuff for guppies. they so Shrimp is another thing. And so I was looking at them just because I was curious. And they're very, very small. Yeah.
00:15:15
Speaker
But the lady did tell me I'm at my capacity and um because otherwise I'm going to need a bigger tank. ah Once you get to a bigger tank, it's there's a whole, yeah, you might have to aerate. Are you currently aerating? As if I know what that means. I know. Well, and that's a thing. like Because I only ever had like a betta fish or goldfish growing up, and we always had to clean the tank ourselves like once a week, and that was always so disgusting. Mm-hmm.
00:15:45
Speaker
But this has a filter, a filter, and the filter puts out – no, so there's a filter. Yeah, so I guess they're together. a filter and a thing that pushes out like the water, keeps it flowing. And I do wonder – so I think that that helps aerate it. I do think also because I've added real plans. So now I have currently – four plants in there. i have a fifth that I need to just prep and get in there. So i I'm hopeful that that will help create more oxygen for them too.
00:16:24
Speaker
And I was saying to one of my friends that I was like, I feel like I just keep creating situations where I'm feeling obligated to worry about whether or not thing living things happening.
00:16:38
Speaker
happy and enjoying life. Like i'm always like, but is my dog bored? Should I be doing something more? Are these fish bored? Do they need, do they need something else? Like how can I make sure they're happy?
00:16:52
Speaker
stop Keep them out of your house. I think it's important to care about that. um While, yes, maybe it's the getting it into the situation in the first place. that's the That's the issue. I've had many a pet or a situation where it was like, well, I had an impulse and now the next 18 years of my life are decided. Yeah.
00:17:21
Speaker
yes yeah i've made a huge mistake yeah i'm like i adopted some cats i am allergic to cats they live a long time this was a big mistake but actually also also wonderful if you don't count the allergy attacks otherwise wonderful I mean, I think the problem is that I'm allergic to so many things that it just didn't really register to me that I was allergic to cats. It was just like, well, this kind of normal, right? And then finally it was like, oh, oh no, it's the it's the beings that are living with you that are making it worse.
00:18:01
Speaker
and so Yeah. And they really, i mean, they carry their dander and theyre all the things that are troublesome are with them at all times and really easy for them to spread around. Just share. One of them always wanted to sleep on my head too. I i didn't let her after a while, but she always want to sleep on my head, like right near all the orifices that get allergic really easily. She was a murderer.
00:18:30
Speaker
She very, very slow murder. yeah Hasn't come to fruition yet. No, but she was trying. Yeah. She didn't live to see the the benefits of I outlived you. i win.
Half Marathon Experience and Reflections
00:18:48
Speaker
um I also, though, was thinking that maybe I should provide an update on the half marathon because I had not really, you know, talked about it since it happened.
00:19:02
Speaker
But that happened, i guess, like like a month ago or something. Yeah. and Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. oo Mid-April. Oh, mid-April, that's right.
00:19:14
Speaker
And it it was very interesting, a very unusual experience because within the first half mile, there was a a man who collapsed and, um and needed CPR basically. Yeah.
00:19:32
Speaker
yeah He had like stopped breathing. um and I mean, luckily people were already giving him CPR by the time I, i like ran up on on them um because oof i i don't know that i'm strong enough to be like the best person to do that but there are already like six people snapping into action and i'm pretty sure they saved his life because he started breathing again and moving oh my god while i was i was just kind of hovered to see how things were going and yeah because it felt weird to keep running But then then when the you know the EMTs came, then I just kept running. Everybody else stayed. And that was actually weird because then everybody else had yeah like had like moved up ahead.
00:20:26
Speaker
Nobody was behind. i was just running for a while by myself. Solo. Yeah. Wow. And were there people along like cheering or not really in that section? Yeah.
00:20:38
Speaker
Not really. um Later on, i think closer to a few of the relay points and um maybe closer to the end. But along the way, it was just really quiet. And so it also made me think if this man had collapsed at any other time, that who knows if there would have been a bunch of people around him or not.
00:21:04
Speaker
So yes, very fortunate. But i will say that the idea of having an unexpected health event during the race was always, you know, it's always something that I think is a concern if you've never done it before. And so seeing it happen at the very beginning was not great for not envisioning that along the way.
00:21:31
Speaker
Right. Yeah. Such a mind mess. Like to then just be like, okay, and now continue on. And especially since running, especially like long distance running is such a mind sport in that you have to kind of distract your mind. Convince your mind to keep going, all of those things. So then to have this weird experience that's disturbing to be the thing that your mind is has just most recently seen, cannot imagine.
00:22:07
Speaker
yeah But it was also kind of amazing. it was like, oh, I think I just witnessed the equivalent of a miracle. Given that that's that CPR does not always have the greatest success rate, but it was immediate that they started it. So just unbelievable. was like, i kind of feel like all those people should receive some sort of recognition.
00:22:37
Speaker
but I don't know how you do that. They they can just know that they saved a man. Well, and so when you said you don't know that you would have been able to, do you know CPR? I have learned how to do CPR many times over the years. So I'm sure I could have done it. I could have done it. yess But it takes a ton of work on the person doing it. So it is like ah it is a group's event, like a group activity.
00:23:05
Speaker
Yeah, there was like one person directing traffic, two people switching in and out to do the chest compressions, one or more people doing the mouth to mouth part, two people on the phone, trying to get people to come out like the paramedics, and figuring out where we where they were. And it was so it was just this huge joint effort. It was amazing.
00:23:32
Speaker
That's incredible. It does make me think, oh, I should probably learn that. And it's one of those things that you hope you never have to use, but also because you use it so infrequently and maybe a long time after you've learned it do you really, you it's like you don't know if you know how to do it until you're doing it.
00:23:58
Speaker
Yep. Yep. That, that would be my fear is like, what if I do it wrong? if I do? But I think in those moments, it's like, you just, if you are the person who has to do it, then you just have to give it a try. You have to do it. I'm pretty sure my parents saved the life of one of their friends by doing, it was either CPR or the Heimlich. it Oh, wow. Yeah.
00:24:23
Speaker
Yeah. So it is useful. It's useful to know. Yes. And what a, just an amazing human moment too, to see everybody coming together and yeah saving someone's life.
00:24:40
Speaker
Yeah. Unbelievable. I do recall that it's supposed to be like the chest compressions are to like staying alive, right? Yeah. Yeah. Which is so very appropriate. Yeah.
00:24:55
Speaker
I know I talk a lot about the the random athletic endeavors that I get myself into, much like you and the pet situations you into. Good for you, though. So you finished.
00:25:08
Speaker
Yeah, I finished and I ran the whole time, except for when I stopped to drink Gatorade. And at one point, a teeny mimosa that they some random dudes were offering towards the end.
00:25:22
Speaker
ah And a half marathon is 13.1 miles, right? So just in case people are not aware, that's a long freaking time to run. yeah um And how did you celebrate? Did you do anything, eat anything good, drink anything great, take a nap?
00:25:42
Speaker
ah Let's see. Well, my whole family was there. at the end, which was really nice. And then I sat down right after the finish line, which your you should not do, i learned.
00:25:56
Speaker
Then I started cramping up. I was like, ah, ah, ah. And ah so then I walked around a bit and then later got some ramen, some noodles. And honestly, I don't remember anything else about the rest of the day.
00:26:13
Speaker
so like was i breath It was a blur. yeah I'm sure i probably just laid on the couch and just enjoyed not doing anything. Actually, i will say that that probably ties into our homework that we'll talk about because it's like I feel.
Mindfulness and Personal Growth
00:26:34
Speaker
most at ease when I've done something like that and can be completely exhausted. And then I'm like, ah, doing nothing. So wonderful.
00:26:45
Speaker
And I feel like people can relate to that where you, the only time that feeling nothing feels okay sometimes in our current productivity obsessed society is when we're like, well, I deserve it.
00:27:02
Speaker
you know really, yeah, I did a lot. And so therefore I could have this break to just be Right. Like I paid my dues. And so now I'm allowed to have this.
00:27:16
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. Good segue. yeah I talked to two different people who had listened to our episode and it was funny because my friend Laura was like, oh my gosh, she's, she's so smart.
00:27:26
Speaker
Laura, the, the guest. So Laura was talking about Laura and i was like, yes. And i said, my mom said that when she listened to the episode, she thought it was so interesting and it made her tired. And Laura said, I'm so glad you said that because I felt the same. like And I think it's partially because the idea is so overwhelming.
00:27:54
Speaker
yeah So can feel energizing, can feel overwhelming. And even today when I was trying to explain to my sister what the last episode's topic was about, i said I was going to be recording with you, the follow-up. And so she asked what it was. i had the hardest time even putting it into a brief enough description. It's like it's it's so large and 100% I would agree because I think one of the things that I found... Well, let's I guess let's recap the homework itself. That might help people know why it was quite a big, very interesting, but potentially overwhelming um homework. so
00:28:40
Speaker
The one part of it was to notice every time you say should... And recognize that there's a story here. Is it is that story true?
00:28:52
Speaker
What would it do to change that story? Well, and like what would happen if it wasn't true? Does it benefit me? Does it benefit others?
00:29:05
Speaker
And then the next part of it was notice your body at the same time. Like what does the should feel like? What comes up when you consider what would happen if the story wasn't true?
00:29:18
Speaker
And what would it feel like to be liberated from that feeling? Like challenge your imagination and let yourself dream.
00:29:28
Speaker
What if? What else? m So, oh, I think I was going to say about the overwhelming part. i think that what's overwhelming about it for me is that...
00:29:43
Speaker
the stories are in some ways all we have. And if we don't have those, there's just like an infinite number of possibilities for what the story could be instead.
00:29:58
Speaker
And that's a lot. So sometimes the known feels easier than unknown. i mean, I can give an example. Like one of the things that that I was noticing. Because I think that the idea of like thinking about shoulds, I do that a lot because i' a therapist and with cognitive distortions, which is a cognitive behavioral therapy term.
00:30:28
Speaker
It's like noticing when you're having thoughts like should or black and white thinking like this is either this or it's this, but it's nothing in between or where you're kind of projecting things either into the future or guessing what other people are thinking. So and anyway, like thinking about should comes up a lot for me. So I feel like I noticed that a lot. So i was trying to notice also certain impulses within me that
00:31:02
Speaker
There are some impulses that I actively like don't act on because, you know, we have a million thoughts all the time and they're not all winners, you know? And so some of them come up and I'm like, okay, I know that's coming from some sort of societal story or something. But then that's sometimes the extent of it. So then like continuing to look at it is it opens up a can of worms.
00:31:32
Speaker
Like an example would be, was thinking about when I'm talking to kids that if they say they're interested in something, I have like this impulse to be like, oh, you like reading?
00:31:45
Speaker
You could become an author. Or you like this sport? You could be the... the The World Series. You know, like, it's always like, you could take this to the highest possible level by our current definitions. Right. Or even if you don't, how are you going to make money doing that interest? Yeah. You could monetize this. You could make this your identity. And I really actively try not to. to go down that path, I might say something like, cool, do you ever write?
00:32:20
Speaker
Or cool, have you ever heard of this thing you might find interesting? yeah But looking at that impulse is is interesting because like who benefits from that story Everybody, because colleges who want to recruit students, sports teams, people who sell paraphernalia, people who coach, people who like there's just an entire complex, industrial, complex sports industrial complex. I don't know that's what you'd call it, but that is tied to it. Gambling, like there's there's so many things that.
00:33:06
Speaker
that to unravel that story would create a lot of ah just instability. Yeah.
00:33:17
Speaker
And thinking about what you said about especially when talking to kids, that was the one time where it's almost easier for me to start to question or even notice those assumptions that I have of this is the way society is.
00:33:34
Speaker
where they'll ask questions that the man on the side of the road is we're getting onto the highway. Why is he there asking for money? like, well, the sign says, you know, he's homeless and doesn't have a job. Why doesn't he have a job?
00:33:49
Speaker
Well, that's complicated. Sometimes it's hard if you don't have a house because you don't have an address and you don't have a place to get... showered and there are many reasons why people don't have homes or jobs. And, well, why can't he just have a house? Why does he have to pay anything for it? Why do we pay for it? And it's like there's one part of it that's like, well, duh, we don't just give things away for free.
00:34:14
Speaker
Okay. That's questionable too. But does it make sense that someone could have a job and still not be able to pay rent, that rent is not affordable.
00:34:30
Speaker
shouldn't Shouldn't rent be affordable? In that, if this is what you're paying a minimum wage, this is what rent should be. Why are people making millions, billions, whatever,
00:34:46
Speaker
Off of people who have to pay rent, which is a basic thing, you know, so and and just looking at answering those questions and how it'll often be complicated or I don't really know the answer. And saying to myself, well, that's because that's how our society was set up.
00:35:04
Speaker
Okay, well, what if it wasn't? What if it was something different? Is a really helpful place for me to kind of question some of those things. Yeah, because even the idea that housing costs money is something that could be questioned because why?
00:35:22
Speaker
Right. Why would something that we all seem to really need cost money when not everybody has the money for it? Right. Why isn't that something that's just a given?
00:35:35
Speaker
And I remember thinking too, a while ago, like as I was kind of questioning these things, how did it even start that we had different types of cars and different levels of cars? Shouldn't there just be a car? But then that gets too close to, and I always have a hard time remembering the difference between communism versus socialism. But does that get us too close to that? Where you know they did have just blocks of housing where it's like, this was what the government provided you and you will all live in the same kind of housing. Everything's equal. That has its own issues, right?
00:36:09
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. And I think that that's that's a good question because I thought about that too, is like where does it get to that point?
00:36:20
Speaker
But I think that then that's where some of the creativity comes in because sometimes then we think like, okay, well, something like that would inevitably look like communism. i think communism is probably the one that you're thinking of because socialism, um it doesn't end up looking like, I don't think it ends up looking that like authentic, fair to me.
00:36:44
Speaker
Authoritarian, but I don't know. they have to look into that more. But i think that then, you know, that's what people some people will do is say like, oh, well,
00:36:56
Speaker
we've already seen that in these situations, therefore this cannot be done. And then it shuts down any kind of creativity for like, how about aspects of it that we're working? What about other options? Do we think that we've thought of every single possible way of doing society? no Right. Right.
00:37:22
Speaker
Definitely Yeah. And I think to your point of saying, well, these are the ways that I know. And so if I take out any idea of what I know and say anything's possible,
00:37:33
Speaker
What feels overwhelming to me about that is there's a lot of effort that has to go into figuring out whether or not some an idea is viable. And so that feels very overwhelming to be like, okay, I'm going to run with this seed of an idea. And not like blindly, of course, thinking through some of the logistics and whatever. But if you follow the seed of an idea,
00:37:57
Speaker
to the point where you can figure out if it makes it makes it or not. That's a lot of effort and time. And then what if it doesn't? And now you're back at square one again and you have to start all over. And there's some beating that you're...
00:38:12
Speaker
imagination takes and your resilience takes by having failures, as we were talking about earlier, that maybe you're less likely to try again if you might fail.
00:38:25
Speaker
Well, one thing that, because Laura Hartley is the one who we talked to in the last episode, and she has a lot of like courses and things that she's written and a lot of just information and ideas on her website, which is Centilla Center spelled like the Australian way, C-E-N-T-R-E. But she talks about the, and I think she mentioned this a little bit when we talked to her, but like seeding ideas, but then maybe that's, maybe that's it.
00:39:03
Speaker
Maybe you seed, parts of like the the world you want to see in some sort of way, even if it's just how I interact with people or how this small community that I have relates to each other and then see where it goes.
00:39:24
Speaker
But yeah to your point, it can take off and go in any direction. So there is that element of like all right well it could go in this really weird and wild direction which you know like the united states currently has gone off in a direction that i don't think was intended initially and what does that do and then at what point do you do you say well this is a failure or yeah we need to just keep on working with the system we have and adjust it
00:40:04
Speaker
Yeah. People of different opinions. So I saw this article about in the UK, there's a group of women who bought a large property and they all live there and it's different ages, but they're all doing that.
00:40:21
Speaker
So it's not a retirement home, but it is a an intentional community And they don't know each other, but they're there to like just kind of watch out for each other and allow them to age in place. And they were saying, yeah, we don't all like each other. we don't all get along all the time, you know, but we have this one goal at least in mind. And so is that enough um as well? Because what if, you know, you and I decide, okay, this is what we are going to do, but then we realize we have –
00:40:54
Speaker
different ideas of what that should look like you're dealing with people is what I'm trying to say so that always makes it trickier than but it doesn't have to it I mean I guess it depends these are all such like abstract ideas that I'm talking about here but but like community doesn't have to be just everybody who gets along well and agrees with the same things but what are those tipping points I do think that a society where everybody agrees with each other and gets along is called a cult. A cult.
00:41:32
Speaker
Yeah. e um Great point. Nobody joins a cult. It's what it becomes, right?
00:41:43
Speaker
But I think that even like looking at maybe smaller scale things, like the mindset of, let's just say, it's talking about hobbies or sports or things like, but like with the, this podcast, one of the things that we're interested in is, people's literal interest, almost like that energy or vibe of being enthusiastic about something. And so when we measure it based on that, like, is that what we are cultivating and being curious about and cultivating curiosity?
00:42:22
Speaker
That is great. That's a world that I'd like to live in. When we almost inevitably with a lot of things, try to go based on how many listens do we have? um How many, how much social media engagement do we have? Right. It just becomes something different.
00:42:45
Speaker
So changing the story of what feels like success or meaningful, what feels meaningful. And like what the goal is. It's like, oh, that's not, that's not necessarily the goal.
00:42:59
Speaker
Yeah, I was even thinking about that with it's dumb, but there's a game that I play on my phone. And so you have to watch ads in order to do it. And so one of the ads that they constantly show is, I can't even remember what the name of it is, but it's like a town where this person is like, okay, have them go and pick the corn and then bring the corn to...
00:43:22
Speaker
here And then that corn goes to the chickens and the chickens lay the the eggs and then you start selling the eggs to the people who are coming up. And now you've made money. So now use that money to buy a tractor and have the tractor do it for you and hire people and have people do it for you. And it's supposed to get just bigger and bigger and bigger. And I'm like,
00:43:41
Speaker
Yes. But how interesting that it's like, if you find something successful, how can you make it more successful? How can you get it on a bigger scale with this kind of questioning things and looking at where is capitalism and everything? I'm like, yeah, why was that the goal? And that here in St. Louis, especially, there are lots of Walgreens that are closing down.
00:44:06
Speaker
And it's like, well, okay, Walgreens has probably gotten hit pretty badly by Amazon, because you no longer have to really go to a Walgreens for some of those things, and then also mail order.
00:44:22
Speaker
But why did we even need Walgreens? Couldn't it have been that it was fine for the mom and pop pharmacies to continue carrying on? But then Walgreens did well. And so they like continued to. expand, expand, expand. And I don't i assume they did in in St. Louis too. But at the time when they were expanding, I was still living in Chicago. And I remember they were just popping up on almost every single corner. And so it's like, you're doing well. So just keep going to and do more. you know You could say the same thing with Starbucks. They were then everywhere. And then you get too big and you have to close down. And so, yes, some of that is just
00:45:02
Speaker
I was going to say just the way things go, but why? Why do they go that way? Why is it when you're you have some you have something that's successful that the second step is or the next step is to be more successful? And who is that success for? It's for very few people within Walgreens, within Starbucks, within anywhere that are actually seeing that success.
00:45:29
Speaker
Yeah. And... I like what you were saying earlier ah about like talking to kids because I feel like when I was a kid, I had a sense of like, or kid and even ah a teenager maybe, a sense of like, okay, but if we're constantly wanting to grow, what happens when it's too much? or like and I think I had this sense about garbage too. was like, where is our garbage going? Isn't it going to be too much at one point? And then after a while, you just start –
00:46:04
Speaker
Potentially. like I think I started just thinking, well, everybody seems pretty sure about this. So um surely somebody must have thought of the fact that the garbage is going to kind of get to be too much at some point. So I guess I'll just accept that that's that's the way things are.
00:46:24
Speaker
But if we were to really pay attention to that kids like child mind questioning, that would help us. Right. Yeah. The why, the why, the why. And like, why does it have to be that way? And also, right, exactly what you said, assuming that there's a reason for this or that someone else is in charge of it or that we've already asked that question. It's like, no, we're all kind of, yes, people have. And we're all moving forward in our life and age being like, this is just the way it is.
00:46:58
Speaker
you know, somebody will take care of it at some point. Right. It's the ultimate procrastination. It was also just the year anniversary of the tornado that hit down in St. Louis. And since then, there is still North City, so the north side of the city and that that area, that were predominantly black neighborhoods and still are that got hit really hard. so a couple of other areas and neighborhoods around there also got hit hard. And they surprisingly, you know, right by Forest Park, which is where the hospitals are and the large park and so really nice housing and, you know, fancy restaurants, they got hit hard and
00:47:46
Speaker
bounced back very quickly. And to no one's surprise, North City still has not. And even for days after people's entire homes were blown away and so much damage was done, the government just like didn't show up.
00:48:07
Speaker
Like nobody showed up. And so there was this group called Action St. Louis that did And they organized. It was just a group of friends that live in the area or grew up in the area and decided, well, we better put together food drives and we better put together ways for people to come and get toiletries and water The basic needs. And then they organized these and got volunteers to help. And they are still the ones who are doing so much of the organizing and including, you know, talking to media and the government to say, hey, we're still here and it's still not fixed. And and so that feels to me like an example of people who said,
00:49:04
Speaker
out of necessity, but okay, the way things are, aren't working for us. And so we need to do it ourselves and think differently. But the unfortunate thing is that in order for it to be actually fixed, you know, like they did a great job thinking outside of the box and doing things differently for the immediate need, but for it to actually be addressed on a long-term scale, they need to work within this the system.
00:49:37
Speaker
who And so it brings me back to what Laura had said of so often we're trying to do things differently, but going through the steps of capitalism.
00:49:50
Speaker
yeah I think that it sounds like They just had to go ahead and do what needed to be done. But it does sound like the fact that they're addressing things on a more like a broader level that they potentially could do a lot to change the story behind it, like or to get it known, at least like what's going on here.
00:50:18
Speaker
And why was this the case and make people question the story. But that's a great example because I feel like that's like a little microcosm where you can make a huge impact. And it's making me think about the part of the homework that we haven't talked that much about, which is like noticing how your body feels. Because I wonder if in their situation,
00:50:40
Speaker
it probably felt like this is ah an urgent need that I, that we need to address. And then they did and they helped a bunch of people. And then is it something that still feels like it's giving them,
00:50:55
Speaker
energy like it's the thing to do? Or does it start to feel like I'm being being pulled in different directions by this system? Or I'm like having to respond to these needs that feel urgent all the time?
00:51:10
Speaker
Like, yeah, I wonder about that part. One of the things that they're doing to address, and they're continuing to support that community in so many ways,
00:51:23
Speaker
is that they have these cohorts of new individuals that come on and do a um basically a class for, i don't know, a couple months.
00:51:37
Speaker
And they're learning grassroots activism. I mean, I wonder if that's, because that seems like a good way to, like, I'm thinking about, okay, if you bring in new cohorts of people, these are people with energy to do the work that needs to be done. And that could potentially let the people who've been doing the work for a while, take a break, and then cycle back in. And they'd have to actually make sure that people did take a break, because I think that's the the part that becomes tempting is like, well, there's always going to be urgent needs.
00:52:13
Speaker
And you have to say, but listen, can i can I keep on going or do I need to take a break? Exactly. Thank you for going back there. So I think there are so many types of career fields where the model is sort of you go hard until you burn out and then you just sort of retreat and do something a lot easier for the rest of your life.
00:52:42
Speaker
And that sucks. That just sucks. Yes. So here it is. I found it. People's Response Fellowship. So it's a six-month paid leadership and organization program for residents of North St. Louis neighborhoods impacted by the May 16th tornado. It equips fellows with political education, grassroots organiz organizing skills, and the tools to lead long-term recovery recovery efforts and advocate for equitable investment in their communities. Okay.
00:53:15
Speaker
Ooh, I love it. h So six months and you get paid. Like how different is that too? It's like an apprenticeship.
00:53:26
Speaker
So here you can really focus on this because you are getting paid. I don't know what they're getting paid, but, and also showing that there's value in this. Yeah. And that it's for people in the community. So the people who were hit the hardest at least have opportunities that are available to them and can take what's happened and transform it into something that can potentially have like a large impact.
00:53:54
Speaker
Great. We have one example that seems great. But again, it's like they even have to work within this framework and And not all not all that exists is broken or wrong, but they are very much working within the same capitalist rules structure framework that is the problem.
00:54:24
Speaker
Yep, but they don't have to necessarily internalize like the stories of those systems. Thank you. So they they work within the framework, but if they work in a way that's not growth at all costs, you must must be always feeling like you're behind or you need to do more.
00:54:48
Speaker
Everything's an emergency. Then they can kind of recreate or create a different way of doing it. Yeah. And even the fact that they're working from a point of our community is valuable. Our community deserves this is better and different than those that are in the government who clearly don't believe that. And so haven't shown up for them.
00:55:18
Speaker
I think that like looking at it from the point of view of like how those stories live within us does help with that feeling of overwhelm and the kind of helps to be more grounding because if we think about it, like, and then project to how can this be on a bigger scale, I guess technically that's part of that conversation.
00:55:47
Speaker
internalized capitalism because it's like how can I expand this already how can we make bigger yep already and I think I'm definitely prone to that where I'll think you know one thing and then it and then it's like okay well if this was in the whole town or state or country, what would it be like? But it's like, okay, start it in yourself.
00:56:15
Speaker
That's a hard enough job to, I mean, things like time scarcity constantly, constantly on my mind is like, do i have enough time?
00:56:27
Speaker
It's, it's just probably like the number one thing for me. And so like attending to those kinds of things within ourselves I think is a challenge enough, a place to start.
00:56:40
Speaker
Like the song, let there be peace on earth and let it begin with me. That is a hard thing to do. It is hard. I did find that to be. something that was also a challenge is some of the shoulds that i noticed within myself ah are really quite valid. Like I should do this work that I ah said I would do.
00:57:06
Speaker
I should wear where this to like the something where it's completely inappropriate um like there was was at a the kids soccer game and there was this little toddler who was just like paying next to the like behind the net and like Only a small toddler can do. Yes, everybody's looking. i was like, you know, that's a should that I should not do. It's fine for this kid. It's kind of hilarious. But good I'm going to say no for me. That's this yeah certain basic things. but
00:57:48
Speaker
But that now I don't remember what I'm saying. Yes. Don't wear something super inappropriate to that soccer game also.
00:58:00
Speaker
Although today at the pool, Layla, when we were leaving, there were some guys coming out and didn't have their shirts on. And Layla's like, it's just not fair that boys don't have to wear shirts and girls do. And that's so dumb. And why do we? And that's another one where it's like, then I start to explain it and it's so dumb. Like it is so dumb. It no sense. Yeah, it makes sense. and she's like i heard there are certain places where you can go swimming and you can be totally naked and i was like well there are new nude beaches and she's like why does it have to be like a designated area and i'm like well because
00:58:32
Speaker
kind of have to make sure that everyone's in agreement like you're not gonna be weird that i'm naked And I don't know what the other side of that is, but basically like, hey, we're all okay that we're naked and no one's going to be weird about it. Or if you're not naked, you're not weird about the fact that we are. And she's like, i just don't get it. And I'm like, well, some of that's because you're eight, but also why, you know, all those things that come along with it are very interesting. And I'm like, but I would never want to be naked. And I'm like, but why? Yeah. Yeah. Because also,
00:59:05
Speaker
Yeah, well, I guess somebody could, like, if we all were just used to peeing in front of people, that would not be, or if we were used to being naked at the beach. But that's why it's like a little bit of a, like, it just, it's messing with my mind because it's basic things that we think are basic that are not basic.
00:59:28
Speaker
Right. And I do agree, though, about I'm still on board with don't pee by the goal. For hygiene reasons. Cleanliness. Exactly. yeah That's the only reason why.
00:59:39
Speaker
Yeah, that's a good one. client But then the nakedness at the beach, I think that the the bathing suit industrial complex is benefiting from that. And then like pornography and that kind of thing benefits from, oh, these things should not be shown. These things on your body that that everybody's got some parts of their body that ah that other people have too. But we don't show them. And therefore,
01:00:09
Speaker
We can create some industry around, oh, now we're going to show them to you. Yeah. And even that that can be then be like really unhealthy because it's so secretive and taboo and. Right.
01:00:26
Speaker
Like even the fact that there are people who might be weird about it comes from the fact that it's not considered Yeah. yeah like nobody's like and you know in different societies different parts of the body are not appropriate to show whereas here you could show just basically practically anything except yeah like the areolas yeah and you know the places you pee from
01:00:58
Speaker
Yeah, right. Yeah. and And that was one thing, i like, a long time ago, i was like, is it just because, like, liquid comes out of it? Like, like potentially, this is something where milk could have come.
01:01:11
Speaker
I don't know. A lot of disgusting things come from my nose. Great point. We should cover those.
01:01:24
Speaker
We've gone down. There are so many paths that we could go down. Yes, yes. Which is also where it's just, yeah, so overwhelming. But it has been so eye-opening. I love having these other...
01:01:37
Speaker
opportunities to just think about things differently and question it. And for my sister, who is somebody who very much thinks differently about many things and always has kind of been like, well, maybe I'm going to try this and maybe I'm going to do that. I am appreciating more and more just how valuable that is and also kind of getting on board with some of those things.
01:02:03
Speaker
I guess that brings us, I mean, brings me to the lowest where I just feel like it's something that I will not be able to not continue thinking about. And I think that's a good thing.
01:02:15
Speaker
Yeah. So one to a hundred level of integration for you. Probably a 75 and only because there are still those times where I'm just lazy or just in the go with the flow kind of BS, you know? Mm-hmm.
01:02:33
Speaker
Yeah. You? ah I've taken several of Laura's courses and she's got like a salon and all that. So I feel that over time it's become much more integrated into my thinking because of that. So for me, I feel like it'd be like 100%.
01:02:53
Speaker
yeah But also that's because with writing and writing novels, I want that to be part of what I'm doing there is creating opportunities to see things differently or to question things. I do feel like what I write, that's kind of my goal is to take things that are currently in our society think Just so that we can see how absurd some of them are, because some of them are hilarious and some of them are scary and hilarious. And then and then some of them are.
01:03:32
Speaker
I don't have a third one. That's all I got. Just two. Rule of three is stopped at two today. your Your point is a good one in that you have, it's one thing for me to be like, and I'm just going to keep questioning it.
01:03:48
Speaker
But there is something to adding to that learning more. discussing more, talking to people who have done a lot of work on this. So the the part of it of being like, oh, I should check out some more of Laura's, any of Laura's, because I haven't done any of them, you workshops or salons, reading things that she's written and other people have written to kind of just expand that thinking and also what can what can replace, what can help me answer some of those questions and what can replace Laura's the thoughts that felt like, well, duh. It's like, okay, but if if that's gone, then what could be there instead? And again, not to a cult level, but to do some more of that work is is necessary.
01:04:35
Speaker
And I think that therapy is also really good for that, too, because it's tuning into your own intuition. So not that there's specifically certain stories that are correct, but more like, how is this feeling for me?
01:04:51
Speaker
am I attached to this story or not? Cause it's not just, that is another thing that I found in thinking about the homework and is that there's family stories, there's stories of like the the type of work that you do, the stories that, that people have in those fields, that kind of thing is also present.
01:05:14
Speaker
So, and just to be a little less like attached to them as people, definitely true that we can be more flexible with them. Cool.
01:05:27
Speaker
Accessibility. Super accessible. I think. Yes, and it also feels like a luxury. like it's a soup Anybody can be thinking about things. It does feel like a luxury, though, to be able to question things.
01:05:41
Speaker
to like have that time and that mental space to not be so survival mode to be able to think about these things. Of course, I do think people that are in survival mode also do question, like, why the F am I in survival mode if I'm working three jobs? and live with four other people, why am I still in survival mode? So I guess yes and no. I just i just am realizing that that feels like a there's something about this that feels like a luxury to be able to spend time thinking about. And I might be wrong.
01:06:16
Speaker
Well, I think that i I hear what you're saying about that it's a luxury to like even to question a system, you know, to to like outwardly question a system is a luxury because not everybody has that ability or the power to do that.
01:06:34
Speaker
But I think that the part about like noticing what your body's telling you, noticing, like just being more in tune or in touch with your body can be very accessible. But yeah I think that at the same time, it can be triggering for people who have trauma potentially. so in those cases, therapy could be helpful, but then that might not be that accessible. Yeah.
01:07:07
Speaker
So, yeah I think it's potentially quite accessible to to just develop a closer relationship with yourself and listening a little more to like what my gut is telling me and trusting that.
01:07:23
Speaker
But then following up on it, it not it's not possible always for everybody in every situation. Yeah, very true. Yeah. And again, because it's such a broad number of topics that we're talking about, there are some that are yeah more accessible or than others.
01:07:42
Speaker
I think in the the application of it, but in like the the basic stories of like, why am I feeling so rushed right now? Part of it might be because my boss is making me know that I'm rushed. But part of it might be like because that's how I learned to be And do I need to keep believing that?
01:08:04
Speaker
Any other thoughts, notes? I think that the other thing is that the the concept his is a little abstract and it can take a bit to sit with.
01:08:20
Speaker
And so... Just the concept itself is like pretty cool, but is such a mind shift that it's potentially it for accessibility sake, it could just take a, take a lot.
01:08:37
Speaker
And that sometimes we might be very attached to our stories that we have. Big thank you once again to Laura Hartley, the change maker, for sharing this interest with us and also for you and then also Elizabeth for finding her and the work that she's doing to have even known about her to come on. It's really valuable stuff.
01:09:06
Speaker
Yeah. I think it's the coolest. All right. Well. Why don't you stay interesting?
01:09:15
Speaker
And stay interested. Oh, I was like, then who gets to say that part? All right. Bye. Bye. Thanks for listening to today's episode. Please subscribe, comment, and like the podcast. Follow us on Blue Sky Social at CanWeInterestYouIn. Send us an email at CanWeInterestYouIn at gmail.com. And join us next time.