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S5E14: From Patents and Trademarks to a Love for Rutgers Law, with Prof. Stanley Tso RLAW'06
202 Plays6 months ago
Adjunct Professor Stanley Tso RLAW'06 joins Dean Bond for a conversation about patents and trademarks, his journey to Rutgers Law School, and the fascinating career of a patent examiner.
The Power of Attorney is produced by Rutgers Law School. With two locations minutes from Philadelphia and New York City, Rutgers Law offers the prestige and reputation of a large, nationally known university combined with a personal, small campus experience. Learn more by visiting law.rutgers.edu.
Executive Producer: Shanida Carter
Series Producer & Editor: Nate Nakao
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Transcript
Introduction to Podcast
00:00:07
Speaker
You're listening to the Anthem Award-winning podcast from Rutgers Law School, The Power of Attorney. I'm your host and dean of the law school, Joanna Bond.
Introduction to Stan So
00:00:22
Speaker
And it gives me great pleasure to introduce to you one of our wonderful alums, Stan So. Stan is honored and delighted to be teaching intellectual property at his alma mater, where his legal career began as an evening student in 2003.
Education and Career Beginnings
00:00:40
Speaker
He received a BSEE from Cornell and an MBA from Duke.
00:00:45
Speaker
Stan serves with the United States Patent and Trademark Office as a primary patent examiner and as an advanced legal education instructor. Before that, he practiced patent law at Weineken Associates, Myers-Wallin, and Lowenstein-Sandler. So, Stan, welcome. Thanks for joining us today. Oh, thank you so much for having me. This is quite an honor and a thrill.
00:01:11
Speaker
Great. Well, thanks.
Personal Background and Inspirations
00:01:13
Speaker
So we always start the podcast with the same question. And it's such a good question. It reveals a lot about people's background and history. But will you tell us a little bit about your origin story?
00:01:26
Speaker
Sure. My mother and father immigrated from China, and I was born in the Catskills of New York, which is about an hour and a half from here. I grew up in a working town, working class town, Ellenville, small town, which was a mix. It was whites, blacks, Hispanics, and very few Asians.
00:01:50
Speaker
So most of my friends happened to be either Jewish or Black or Hispanic, and that's what I grew up. I went to the same school and graduated from there. It was a great experience. That sounds wonderful. And why did you decide along the way to attend Rutgers Law School?
00:02:13
Speaker
Well, actually, Johanna, this was a second career. After graduating with an undergrad, I worked as an electrical engineer in corporate America, worked my way up to an account executive.
00:02:35
Speaker
I think I was like 39 or 40. I had 20 years of experience in corporate America. And I remember at the time,
00:02:45
Speaker
the Reverend Dr. Martin Luther King, I was reading his works. And I remember it was so profound. He said, life's most urgent question is, what are you doing for others? And I thought to myself, I'm doing quite well in a company. I'm doing well for myself. I'm doing a lot for myself and for the shareholders and for the employees and for some of the customers.
00:03:11
Speaker
I'm not sure if that's what Dr. King really meant by what are you doing for others. And I looked around and I saw so many lawyers are doing, to me, what seemed to be, at least from my perspective, more meaningful contributions to society. So that's really the reason why I said, I want to go to law school. That's fantastic. I love that inspiration. And why Rutgers in particular?
Choosing Rutgers and Law School Experience
00:03:41
Speaker
Well, I was working in New Jersey and I had two small children, so I was going to go at night part-time. And I had two choices, Seton Hall and Rutgers. Any place else just wasn't feasible. So I applied to both and fortunately got accepted to
00:04:02
Speaker
actually both, but Rutgers was half the price. So I said, this is an easy decision. So I started going at night school and it's been one of the best decisions I've ever made. Wonderful. Well, we're so thrilled that you chose Rutgers back in the day. And can you tell me a little bit about what your experience was like attending as a part-time student?
00:04:30
Speaker
My initial, well first, it was wonderful. I met so many just colleagues, classmates.
00:04:40
Speaker
Many are still my friends to this day. I mean, if there's a gap, it's been 15, like 17 years since we, 18 years since I graduated. And sometimes there's a gap in time where we don't connect. But once we do reconnect, we just pick up right where we left off. So that it was just a wonderful experience meeting people with similar interests. It's fantastic.
00:05:09
Speaker
And how did you handle the time pressure of working and attending the part-time program and having two young children? Yeah, that was, for me, it was difficult, but not impossible. And everyone, all of my classmates were in somewhat similar situations. We all, at least the people I associated with, we supported each other.
00:05:38
Speaker
You know, my friend, Ron, I'm not getting this. Can you explain it to me? Sure, Stan, this is what it means. Or, Felice, I don't get this, or I would help them. We all work together, and we all got it through. That's great. I think that that's fairly typical of a Rutgers Law School experience, that there's a real sense of community here, and I think people do really look out for each other and support each other. So I'm glad to hear that was your experience as well.
00:06:06
Speaker
And what do you think, looking back on it, what do you think was the most important thing or things that you learned during your time at Rutgers Law School? I really struggled the first few semesters at Rutgers at law school. I think it was a concept, because I came up from learning engineering and finance where
00:06:32
Speaker
This is the answer. And I had struggled with, you learn the law here and it's applied this way, but over here, same facts, same everything, but it's a different, and it just, it took a while to get into that. People are different and people have different ideas and it's not like engineering and it's not like finance. So,
00:07:01
Speaker
So that took a while for me, but I think once I got that, it started to make more sense.
00:07:10
Speaker
Right. It makes sense to me that you would have to adjust to the idea that there's a lot of gray in the law and a lot of gray areas. And so getting comfortable with that, I'm sure, was an adjustment. It sure was. But it was a challenge. But once it started to click, then it made more sense.
00:07:31
Speaker
Sure, sure.
Transition to Patent Law
00:07:33
Speaker
And why did you decide to go into intellectual property law? Oh, that was not by my choice. I've spent the past 15 years doing patents, working private practice patents, and I work for the Patent Office where I do patents, but I didn't take a single patent class in law school.
00:07:54
Speaker
In law school, I was going to do real estate or taxes, wonderful professors and tax. Upon graduation, I worked for a small real estate office, but that was in 2006-2007. There was a huge crisis, financial insurance, and it affected the housing industry.
00:08:18
Speaker
I had no work because the real estate transactions just ground to a complete halt. I still needed to find some income, so that's when I had to reassess and figure out, okay, I have an electrical engineering background. I can qualify for the patent bar just right away. Stephanie Richmond from the career office was really helpful.
00:08:45
Speaker
met with Stephanie and said, you know, help me out. What can I do? I'm out of work, essentially. And she guided me through how to change careers, which really helped. I mean, invaluable. Right. Oh, that's great. I'm so glad. I think that that is the consistent story that I hear about students' experiences with our Center for Career Development. They're really extraordinary.
00:09:13
Speaker
And so I know that you're at the US Patent and Trademark Office now. Can you tell us a little bit about your current role there and also how law school may have prepared you for that even though you weren't studying patents in law school?
Role at Patent Office
00:09:30
Speaker
Right, yeah. So my role is a patent examiner. So essentially when somebody applies for a patent, I'm one of the,
00:09:42
Speaker
persons who decides, yes, you get a patent, or no, you don't. But if you make some changes, perhaps you can get a patent. So the patent examiner is
00:09:57
Speaker
It's sort of like a quasi judge. You're the first level, decide, yes, patent or no rejection. We apply a lot of law and we also have to interview the applicant and their attorneys. Even though I didn't take patent, the Rutgers
00:10:20
Speaker
the clinic I was in with Professor Freund and a lot of the classes I took, Professor Kettle, Burbelsen, Professor Safran, and several others. Forgive me if Professor Francione was terrific. Anyway, they all molded me to be able to work with attorneys to try to find solutions. If you can't get a patent here, maybe we can amend it in a way that we can grant you a patent.
00:10:50
Speaker
It was invaluable. That's great. That's that's wonderful. And so I have to ask what what do you love about the job? What's your favorite and and also what's your least favorite part of the job?
00:11:04
Speaker
at the patent office? Yes, at the patent office. Let me explain it this way. It's an incredible job. There are some of my colleagues who are actually paying money to work there, and I'll explain it this way. The pension's really good. At the time, it's 2%
00:11:28
Speaker
per year of your final pay. There are a handful of examiners who have worked more than 50 years. Neil Abrams, for example, 58 years. You do the math. If he retires, he will get more in pension than what he's getting in salary. But I talked to, I said, you know, why don't you retire? You'll make more money. It's not about the money. It's about
00:11:56
Speaker
It's about the whole culture of the environment. Every year they survey federal government agencies as the best places to work and the patent office and NASA are usually one or two. It's the top place.
00:12:13
Speaker
Now, the patent office is self-funded by fees. Here are these government shutdowns and furloughs. That hasn't applied to the patent office yet because we have money in reserve. We don't have to rely on taxpayer dollars. It's an incredible place to work.
00:12:36
Speaker
And if you had to pick something that is probably your least favorite or at least not the most enjoyable part of your job, what would you say?
00:12:50
Speaker
Honestly, well, it is a little bit limiting on what I can do outside of the patent office. For example, I cannot provide an expert opinion on a patent case. I'm conflicted. I cannot write.
00:13:06
Speaker
and opine on a Supreme Court decision or a Federal Circuit decision on a patent case, even though I want to. But I get it. And if that's the worst thing, I'll take it. Right. That's pretty good, I have to say.
Specialization and Client Interaction
00:13:22
Speaker
So Stan, tell me, do you specialize in anything at the Patent Office? I sure do. There's about 8,500 examiners, and when we're hired, they try to put us in a category that we can succeed in. So since I have an electrical engineering background, my specialty is circuit boards and cables.
00:13:45
Speaker
So for example, most of the applications that I look at are Samsung, Apple, IBM, and so on, with improvements to either circuit boards or cables. So that's how they divide up the patents.
00:14:10
Speaker
That's fascinating. I had no idea. Well, in your case with Apple and all those other companies coming out with new versions of their products every year or so, there will always be work for you, Stan. Yeah, we're not too worried about
00:14:26
Speaker
about redundancies. Even with AI, there's always people wondering, oh, is AI going to replace us? I think that would be hard to do from the patent examiner point because a lot of it is a judgment call on whether an invention is patentable or not patentable. There's a lot of checks and things we have to consider on the checklist that
00:14:55
Speaker
It would be, I think, difficult for AI to replace that judgment. Sometimes it's a feel. Is this really a novel idea, invention worthy of a patent? There's a lot of gray in deciding whether an invention becomes a patent.
00:15:20
Speaker
Well, that's good job security for you. I suppose so. I mean, that's why people have been there for over 50 years and there's always seems to be a need. There's so many people who apply for patents every year. I think it's about half a million applications every year. Wow.
00:15:41
Speaker
So the fees, and it's not cheap to file for a patent. And it's not cheap to maintain the patent once it's issued. That's why the Patent Office or Patent and Trademark Office every year has a surplus of funds. Now it's not a huge surplus because they find good ways to spend that money.
00:16:07
Speaker
And how much does it cost to apply for a patent? Right off the bat, the fees. Well, actually, there is a sliding scale. If you're a major corporation, a large entity, it's one set of fees. Typically,
00:16:23
Speaker
the filing fees might be in the range of $2,000 plus the attorney fees to prepare the application. And then if you're a small entity, it's half of that. And if you're what's called a micro entity, like a single inventor, it's one fifth of the, so it could be about four or $500, but that's just to get started.
Patent Application Costs and Diversity in Law
00:16:45
Speaker
Then as what's called patent prosecution, the back and forth fees are added.
00:16:53
Speaker
And then once a patent is issued, you have several fees, it's called the issue fee just to release it. And then you have periodic maintenance fees, which are fees to keep the patent alive. So they're pretty financially, I think it's a pretty good model for the government.
00:17:20
Speaker
Well, I do like that they have a sliding fee structure so that they can adjust fees for a small inventor or solo inventor. Exactly, me too. They do the best they can to accommodate the individual inventor.
00:17:38
Speaker
Great. So we're going to switch gears a little bit now. Studies show that Asian Americans have been the fastest growing minority group in the legal profession over the last several years, but underrepresented in the top tiers of the legal profession. What has been your experience learning and working in the legal field as an Asian American?
00:18:04
Speaker
Joanna, I'm afraid I have a bit of a myopic view because I've been with the patent office for nine years, and I don't see that at all, at least in the patent office. Now, I can't really opine on everywhere else.
00:18:22
Speaker
And for my limited experience at Rutgers Law School as an adjunct, I don't see that at all. I mean, I see minorities, Asian-Americans in leadership positions. That's wonderful. But is it true elsewhere? Perhaps.
00:18:49
Speaker
Unfortunately, I can't really give you a good answer on that because I don't see it. I'm so glad to hear that. That's fantastic. That's great. We have the pleasure of seeing you frequently at the law school. You're still a regular at the law school in Newark and you've served as an adjunct professor in the intellectual property clinic.
00:19:10
Speaker
And in fact, you accompanied last year's class on a trip to see a client, which was a custom guitar maker, correct? Can you tell us a little bit about that experience? And then I'd like to ask you too about your
00:19:28
Speaker
Engagement with the law school you continue to financially support students by attending events and donating and we greatly appreciate that but but why is it important to you to stay connected so those are really two separate questions tell us about the tell us about the guitar maker and the trip with the ip clinic but then i'd also love to hear about what motivates you in terms of staying connected.
00:19:52
Speaker
Sure. Serving as an adjunct clinical professor was just with Professor Kettle. He is just the best, the best. He did a lot for my legal career. Even I was just one of hundreds of his students, but when I took his class, he taught me that learning can be entertaining as well. And he's got that special knack for
00:20:19
Speaker
It's hard to describe, but in the clinic,
00:20:27
Speaker
We were approached by a guitar maker who was interested in a trademark. Professor Kettle happened to assign it to Lana Lee, a brilliant, brilliant student who helped get this client a trademark in what I thought was record time. I'm like, oh my gosh, what's going on? And I'm looking at the work. Now I work for the Patent and Trademark Office, so I can only look on from afar. But I was looking at it and
00:20:56
Speaker
It was just brilliant. The client was so thrilled that he invited the clinic out to visit his shop, which is in Nazareth, Pennsylvania. Now, he makes custom guitars, but he's also connected with the Martin Guitar Corporation, who's
00:21:20
Speaker
who makes more production, but they're widely known as one of the finest acoustic guitars in the world. That's only a mile away. So he arranged to have a factory tour of Martin, because he knows the people in Martin as well. So from my perspective, it was a great day to meet the client, get a tour of the guitar factory, and I think most students enjoyed it.
00:21:46
Speaker
Oh, I'm sure they did. That's a fascinating glimpse into the inner workings of the guitar factory, but also just getting a chance to spend time with a client. That's important for students' professional development, too. So that's wonderful.
Connection to Rutgers and Advice for Students
00:22:03
Speaker
Yeah, but as far as you asked about why
00:22:08
Speaker
Why do I feel so connected to Rutgers? I love the school. I love the school. Now, I didn't always love it. When I was struggling,
00:22:24
Speaker
in my first year. I didn't do very well. My transcript, I wasn't straight A's. In fact, I got a couple of C's, which was kind of shocking. I'm like, whoa. I remember my transcript, I thought, I just started this. I'm failing at it. I have a long way to go.
00:22:52
Speaker
I didn't think too kindly of Rutgers Law School at the time. In fact, I was ready to leave. Oh, no. And I said, my wife and I talked to it. Why don't we give it one more semester? I took Professor Kettle's class. That was transformative. And I went from hating Rutgers and ready to walk away to graduating. It was a good experience. Towards the end, I enjoyed it.
00:23:17
Speaker
And then after being unemployed, going back to Rutgers, they're really helping. They're really looking out for their, you know, they helped me out. Stephanie, as a Dean Richmond, forgive me.
00:23:33
Speaker
I think it's Dean Stephanie Richmond. I think that's really wonderful advice. Then as time goes on, I really see that Rutgers is there for the students. So it was after I graduated that
00:23:55
Speaker
that I felt Rutgers is part of me and I'm part of Rutgers to the extent that I want to be. And that's available to any alum. And what better way for purpose and meaning to help students?
00:24:12
Speaker
Absolutely. Well, we're so grateful for all of your involvement with the student body. I know I've had the pleasure of seeing you at events and it's wonderful to have our alums stay connected to the institution and really look for ways to give back to our students and to the law school. So we appreciate you. Thanks so much, Stan. It's a pleasure.
00:24:36
Speaker
Let me ask one more question. Sure. What advice would you give to students who are thinking about law school and especially to those who think it may not be possible for them? Well, let me tell you, first of all, it is possible because I did it and I didn't fit the mold. But if you're thinking about Rutgers, come visit. Come. And I think
00:25:06
Speaker
How can you not want to come here the more you can learn about it? Everybody here, everybody, and I mean everybody, is so supportive. I just I hope to see you. I'm talking to the prospective students. Come on over. Yes, of course. Great, great advice. Yeah, I hope I hope they do too. Wonderful. Well, well, Stan, it's been such a pleasure to talk to you today. Thank you so much. I really appreciate you taking the time to join us.
00:25:35
Speaker
Oh, it's been a thrill and my privilege and my honor. Thanks so much. Take care. OK, bye bye. The Power of Attorney is a production of Rutgers Law School. With two locations just minutes from New York City and Philadelphia, Rutgers Law offers the prestige and reputation of a large, nationally known university with a personal, small campus experience. Learn more today by visiting us at law.rutgers.edu.