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S6E2: Human Rights & Transnational Law, with Prof. Jorge Contesse
189 Plays2 months ago
Professor Jorge Contesse joins Dean Bond to discuss his work as the founding Director of the Rutgers Center for Transnational Law and as a member of the United Nations Committee against Torture.
The Power of Attorney is produced by Rutgers Law School. With two locations minutes from Philadelphia and New York City, Rutgers Law offers the prestige and reputation of a large, nationally known university combined with a personal, small campus experience. Learn more by visiting law.rutgers.edu.
Executive Producer: Shanida Carter
Series Producer & Editor: Nate Nakao
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Transcript
Introduction of Jorge Contessa
00:00:14
Speaker
I'm your host and dean of the law school, Joanna Bond.
00:00:24
Speaker
It gives me great pleasure today to welcome one of my colleagues at Rutgers Law School, Jorge Contessa. Thank you so much for joining us, Jorge. You have a fascinating history and expertise. and And as a fellow human rights scholar and lawyer, I really appreciate the work that you've done in this area. ah But I want to start with with your early history. I know you were born in Chile at a ah volatile time in its history.
Growing Up Under Pinochet's Regime
00:00:51
Speaker
Can you please tell us a little bit about your origin story?
00:00:55
Speaker
Thank you for the invitation. It's exciting to be here. um and but yes I was born and raised in Chile during the military dictatorship of the infamous Augusto Pinochet.
00:01:10
Speaker
And in my in my case, it took me a while. ah My family was not directly involved in politics. So it was really by way of seeing as I was growing up things that were strange, that I could not fully understand that um that was that was happening. and And the moment when it really kind of dawned on me that something big was going on in the country.
00:01:36
Speaker
was by the time that um I started and in in in school, ah I started seeing people, students, new classmates who looked like me, but had I went to French school and they they came mostly from France or similar countries.
00:01:55
Speaker
and they spoke perfectly ah French, like perfect accent. And it was like something, why is why is this person, um why does he look like me, has a ah name, but has a Chilean name, and his accent is just like, he can't really speak Spanish. And that was my first as a child kind of understanding that, OK, this is something that's related to those things that I cannot fully understand. And then I started kind of asking questions. And then I understood that these were the children of exilees, people who were returning to the country as the country was opening up and we were somehow leading into the process of transition to democracy. um So that was really the the big kind of awakening. And then um my parents, my mother,
00:02:46
Speaker
She she started buying books and literature. So as I was starting to understand but sort of the world around me, I started seeing books, you know, in my house. And I just went and I've read everything that that I could. And and and that was the kind of the big moment of understanding, OK, this is what a dictatorship means. And this is what massive human rights violations look like.
00:03:16
Speaker
What a fascinating story.
Journey into Law and Social Justice
00:03:17
Speaker
and And I can only imagine the sort of gradual realization of of what what had happened in the country and and what you were seeing around you. Is that what led you to study and teach international human rights law and and comparative constitutional law? I think i think I think it is. I mean, it it it was not conscious, of course. was what um My conscious decision was that I wanted to become a lawyer. I wasn't fully sure why. My first kind of my intuition was, on the one hand, I i i thought that you know the world of litigation and and and cases and and oral arguments
00:04:00
Speaker
ah was attractive, even though oral arguments was not part of the legal landscape in Chile back in the day, it was much more of like what do you see in films. And then it was really combined with this understanding that something really serious was happening and had happened. And that drove me to the world of kind of social justice and and human rights. So when I started law school in Chile,
00:04:25
Speaker
I wasn't sure what I wanted to do. And it was really the the effect that full-time professors had on me. um I went to a law school in which this was not the rule. It was kind of rare to have a full-time faculty and and people who were sort of professional academics. And a law school which has as an ethos human rights and social justice and public interest law. So my my interest in litigation kind of started transitioning into an interest in the understanding of the normative parameters and the contours of the law and the study of the law, combined with litigation, which was the first work that I do as ah as a clinician, actually.
00:05:08
Speaker
So, yes, it's the combination of I was the first lawyer in my family. um im um I do not come from a family of lawyers and that was not part of, you know, Sunday lunch conversations. So it was really my kind of self-made understanding of the world and the injustice around me, really, that drove me to to this path.
From Chile to Rutgers: Academic Pursuits
00:05:28
Speaker
That's fantastic. And I love that you saw the potential in law to really have an impact on the world. ah Well, what specifically was your path to Rutgers Law School?
00:05:38
Speaker
So I came to the United States to pursue graduate studies. So I studied law in Chile, and that's five years. You know do you have to do another extra year to actually obtain um the law degree, which you work kind of as a professional practice really for like nine months.
00:06:00
Speaker
um So I worked as so sort of a junior research assistant or something for a couple of years, three years. And then I came to the United States to pursue graduate studies. I stayed here a little longer as a human rights fellow at Fordham, and then I was kind of planning on staying here, um and the law school in Chile asked me to return. Kind of an emergency. It's like, we need you here, and we need you to run the Human Rights Center. I was like, well, I'm not um not just ready to go back, but this is really an interesting offer. And and so, okay, I'll do it, which means I need to put on hold my JSD dissertation,
00:06:39
Speaker
um So I went back to Chile for like four, five years, came back to the United States to finish my dissertation. And while I was in that process with my idea was to just return, you know, to go to go back home.
00:06:53
Speaker
And someone here at Rutgers says, Rutgers is looking for someone who to teach international human rights and international law. You should send your materials. And I was like, well, I don't even have an updated CV. I'm working on my dissertation. It's like just chapters and memos. And like, I don't have Forget about a job paper. Right. And like I was not considering this. I didn't even like know that it was past the deadline of the, you know, like it was completely out of. um And so they insisted and say, OK, well, you know, I'm going to send my materials to Rutgers in Newark. and And I don't know. I was actively looking for a job because I was I was I would had already stepped down from my previous law school position in Chile. So I was looking for new places in Chile.
00:07:42
Speaker
And so I sent my materials here and long story short, I got an interview and then a callback. Like I didn't send my stuff to anywhere else. It was just like this one place. and That's great. I love it. it's Yeah. and and and And then, well, here I am. 11 years later. The rest is history. Right. Well, it's to our great benefit that that that colleague mentioned that Rutgers was hiring. I'm so glad that they did. I have to ask, what was your dissertation on?
00:08:10
Speaker
on the interaction between international human rights law and domestic constitutional law, looking at specifically, looking at the case of of indigenous people's rights, so which is a major topic in Chile. So I was working you know as a case study looking at how Chile had um ratify a particular international treaty and what that meant in terms of the conversations that take place when you have two different legal orders. One is international, the other one is domestic, which really informed my research for, I would say, a decade. That's fantastic. Wow. That's great. And let me ask you about teaching for a moment. what What's your favorite aspect of of being in the classroom and teaching?
Teaching Philosophy: A Jazz Analogy
00:08:56
Speaker
ah That's a great question. um I think the way I think about teaching is similar to I have a friend who is ah a jazz guitar player. And I tell him that I don't think that our jobs are quite different.
00:09:12
Speaker
in the sense that he's working at home, he's practicing, he's rehearsing with his trio, and then he has this major gig or minor, but he has to present you know live, and that moment is just that unique moment of live music.
00:09:32
Speaker
That's how I think of teaching. That's how I think of presenting at a conference. But teaching in particular has this this thing of you kind of build sort of any ah a relationship that that takes place in a room with a group of people, with a group of people, especially with, you know, first year students, first semester, they're like so thirsty, they're so alert. And so the the atmosphere that you that that's created, I always think that you know, there's just one moment and then the following second, that moment is is gone. And I always tell students, think about your your legal education. it's It's just three years. You'll be out of you know this building in three years. But next semester, you're going to miss some things that you didn't do while you were sitting in your first semester and so on. So the this is a long response, a long answer.
00:10:25
Speaker
like is the feeling of the live moment that cannot be repeated. That's just unique, especially when you have those mini instances of someone who you're looking at their, you know, their faces and they're like, I just understood this, right? Like that that that light bulb moment, that light bulb moment of yeah kind of that building up tension. And then suddenly there's like this click um And it's just so such a beautiful, powerful tool that you know any professor, any instructor, any teacher really has. um I would say that's my favorite kind of part of of being in the classroom.
00:11:06
Speaker
Even in in virtual classrooms, I have to say, I mean, it's not the same. um right But I've i've taught like fully online courses and and seeing some of the reactions of students who are understanding this new world of online education, which I think I at least do not fully understand. um But it's nothing like that live moment, which is comparable to being you know at a jazz club.
00:11:30
Speaker
I love that metaphor of teaching and jazz, like that that improvisation that happens in both environments is yeah is really wonderful. And that's that's definitely the most beautiful description of of academic discourse I've ever heard. So I love that. um Thank you for that. What would you be doing if you weren't teaching? Can you imagine an alternative universe in which in which you weren't an academic? And what would that look like?
00:11:55
Speaker
um Gosh, the the last year of high school, you know that in Latin America, you go straight from high school to law school, which is kind of crazy, I think, for a 17-year-old to know that, oh, this is what I want to do for the rest of my life. I think that's just not how it should work. But anyway, that's how it works. But I remember during my last year of high school, i I kind of knew for a while that I wanted to go to law school when I was in high school. um But then during my last year,
00:12:27
Speaker
I had a moment of maybe I do want to pursue music. I like music. I like playing music, but its just like an amateur. um But I thought maybe maybe this is something that I could do. um Because I couldn't think of anything else, really. I couldn't think of, oh, this is another career. that it It was very clear that I wanted to do something related to this space. And again, there's a connection. I think there's an interesting connection in how we think of our profession um and how musicians think of of of there. So um because I cannot think of anything else really, that's that's what I would say. But it's hard for me to think
00:13:11
Speaker
outside of not even being a lawyer. I when I when I but when I finish my studies in Chile, you you have to take this exam. And one of the one of the professors who took my actually he was the constitutional law professor. So after the exam, he and I, yeah you know, we we run into each other on the street um and he says,
00:13:36
Speaker
the yeah at my office that we can talk about what your plans are. And I remember I was wearing a Jimi Hendrix t-shirt after my exam. So it's like, just make sure you, you dress up. Okay. Cause this is an actual law firm. So but don't come like this. And, and I went there and I remember, so he was sort of introducing me to the work and the office. It was really very impressive. All these, you know,
00:14:03
Speaker
modern law firm. And at some point says, okay, so um he wanted me to join the law firm, the firm. And he says, um you know, this will be great. Look at this. You know, it's fantastic. and And I remember asking, so what did you do today? Like to understand what you do? or I mean, he's been talking for an hour, but what did you actually do today? And he says very proudly, well, we just purchased a bank.
00:14:32
Speaker
And I remember thinking, that was the moment when I said, okay, this is exactly what I don't want to do. Like, I don't want to go home right and tell someone, guess what I did today? I bought a bank.
00:14:45
Speaker
That's an important realization about what you do and don't want professionally. It was very important, yes. In fact, I ended up working with him, but as a research assistant on a project that was really interesting on the right to privacy and the jurisprudence of the Supreme Court of Chile on the right to privacy. And I understood very clearly, this is what I like. This is really what I like. So I've been really fortunate, even as a young lawyer, and then coming here, I feel very privileged, really, that I can do what I do. That's wonderful.
00:15:15
Speaker
That's great.
Founding the Center for Transnational Law
00:15:16
Speaker
Very quickly, what instrument do you play or do you play multiple instruments? or do you say play I I mean, my instrument is the guitar. That's what I played. um But I know how to, you know, juggle with other things here. That's fantastic. That's great. I love it. ah You're the founding director of the Center for Transnational Law here at Rutgers, of which we are very proud. How did it come about and and what's the purpose of the center?
00:15:45
Speaker
um The center is, I have to give credit to my, our colleague Suzanne Kim, because she pushed the idea, I had joined the law school, just I had been here for just a couple of years, maybe three years, and she says, you should consider doing something um on your, you have such an you know interest in international law and comparative law, there's nothing really here, and you could use my center, her center,
00:16:12
Speaker
on sexuality and gender as kind of a hub. and And she was like, you know, I can offer you this platform if this is something that you would be interested in.
00:16:23
Speaker
And that that felt like, OK, I can't say no to this. she's someone This is really um you know an interesting idea to explore. And so that's what I did. So for a few years, I i got some funding from the chancellor's office, and I was able to set up this initiative. It was a transnational legal initiative.
00:16:44
Speaker
and And then ah a few years, just a couple of years later, maybe, it was upgraded transnational law. And the idea was there's so much interest and experience and expertise that's kind of disseminated here in the law school ah from both faculty and students.
00:17:06
Speaker
So we really need something that can kind of gather and bring this interest and views and expertise together. And that's how the center sort of that that that was the idea behind the center, having a permanent institutional platform where people who share interests on international law and comparative law, whether it's human rights taxation, international commercial law, can meet and kind of encounter and and develop projects and initiatives.
00:17:35
Speaker
So that's the big idea behind it, like having this hub for radical law school, um where people who share this interest can kind of interact. That's fantastic. Well, as someone who shares those interests, I'm very excited that that it exists. And I'm very happy that you're one of the faculty affiliates among many other of our colleagues. Thank you. I know that our students benefit tremendously through association with the center and and some of them are able to take advantage of study and work abroad through the center. Can you talk a little bit about that?
00:18:07
Speaker
Sure. So the center funds summer internships for those students who have an interest in being exposed to other, not just countries, but really legal cultures. I mean, you yourself have done this. You've gone to other places, spent time kind of you know, trying to understand the legal system and it makes you a better lawyer. Your thinking is only more complex and sophisticated when you've been exposed to how other people do things and think about similar things, about the same problems.
00:18:38
Speaker
um I always do this when I'm teaching, I don't know, first-year criminal law, and I bring my understanding of civil law jurisdictions. and And I see how students appreciate this. And so for them to have the opportunity to actually work with local partners, NGOs doing, you know, social justice work or human rights work,
00:19:00
Speaker
um in Latin America. now and Now that I'm a member of the UN Committee Against Torture, I'm hoping to expand this into the world of the United Nations. You know, it's it's it's such a great opportunity for students. and and not I can, you know, there's so much that I can do. I wish I could do even more because there's so much interest. They they they want to understand the world. They want to be exposed to other cultures, to other legal you know thinking. And the center just tries to do that by supporting students to to do that kind of work.
00:19:31
Speaker
Well, I'm so happy that you mentioned your appointment to the Committee Against
Role in the UN Committee Against Torture
00:19:35
Speaker
Torture. That is something that we here at Rutgers are so proud of. ah It's really one of the most prestigious roles in international human rights law. ah So I wonder if you can talk a little bit about your work with the committee and and how that came about and what it looks like on ah on an annual basis. Sure. And the first thing that I'll say, because we're on the record, I want to ah ah acknowledge your support. And it's at some point that it was so good that you are the dean. I didn't have to explain to you because you've done work and research on 3D bodies and UN 3D bodies. So it's not like, let me explain to you this weird animal that we call a human rights 3D body.
00:20:20
Speaker
Right. So that's what the Committee Against Torture is. There are major human rights treaties ah in the United Nations, and each one of these treaties has its own kind of supervisory body. And what did what they do and what the Committee Against Torture does is this is the 10-member committee that meets ah three times a year in Geneva to engage in dialogues with states, states that are parties to the Convention Against Torture.
00:20:50
Speaker
And under that convention, they have an obligation to report periodically to basically explain how they are complying with their obligations under the convention. And so what we do is we meet with them with state delegations. We look at the reports. We look at reports from other sources, such as civil society organizations. And we interact. We ask questions. We gather information. And then we make recommendations on how, in our view,
00:21:20
Speaker
a state can do better when it comes to implementing the convention. So that's one part of the work. And the other major part is individual communications. So individuals who, for example, face deportation to a country where they fear they may be tortured or subject to ill-treatment, they can come before the committee and ask for the committee to review that case.
00:21:45
Speaker
If we believe that there are in fact grounds, you know reasonable grounds to believe is that that person may be subject to torture or ill treatment, then we will ask the we we'll request the state ah not to deport, not to extradite that particular person. That's that's in one minute what what what we do. um And yeah, well, now that you know students are working with me actively and ah my plan is to expand the work that students can actually do with the committee.
00:22:15
Speaker
You and I have talked a little bit about that. and And as you know, I'm so excited about expanding opportunities for students to be involved in this work yeah because it is such important work. It's transformative for the people involved. ah And for students to actually see what human rights work looks like up close, I think it is really ah an unusual opportunity. So thank you for continuing to think creatively about involving our students in this. It's such a rare opportunity. ah I want to ask a little bit about um your scholarly
Engaging with International Scholars
00:22:48
Speaker
work. I know ah you present at conferences quite a bit and organized conferences here at the law school. Can you tell us a little bit about why it's so important to collaborate with with other scholars and practitioners um in in both research and and sort of the you know the practical issues of human rights that come up?
00:23:06
Speaker
um I think the answer to the question is is really embedded in your question. you know it it went If you're working on human rights, if you're thinking about international law, if you're thinking of any of these topics, I i couldn't think of being a good scholar without integrating you know into the conversation the ways in which those human rights standards and those rules and norms and doctrines are being implemented or not implemented.
00:23:34
Speaker
and And that means, of course, um having conscious interactions and conversations with folks on the ground, but but certainly with people who are in other places. To me, that is just inherent in in the work that I do. Maybe if i my area was you know something different, i i I wouldn't feel, I'm not sure that I would, but maybe I would not feel as compelled as I do um about engaging with folks who are in other places. So having conferences and and and and going to conferences and organizing things here so that once again, you know the community can engage with and have exposure to how people in other places think about things. I mean, one problem that we have here in the United States is really that we we are too
00:24:24
Speaker
We're too quick to to think that this is how things you know are done, and and that's it. um And I'm glad that that's not the sort of the prevailing thinking of Rutgers. Once again, the Center for Transnational Law kind of realizes there are so many people who already think that it's important to engage in comparative analysis and and who are actually coming from other places.
00:24:46
Speaker
so That's just part of, to me, it's natural. It's organic to, with people who are in other places, to try to understand how other jurisdictions think about the same problems that we face. And once again, to see how the interaction, how international law can have an effect on on our domestic conversations.
00:25:08
Speaker
That's brilliant. and And it really does break down this kind of insular view of of the world from ah from a US perspective. What legal accomplishment are you most proud of? Well, let me change that and say, what what legal, professional, or scholarly accomplishment are you are you most proud of? Oh, I think, I i don't know, probably I should say being elected by the state parties to the UN n Convention Against Tortures, that's an incredible thing and I'm very proud of. But at the same time, I'm very proud of when I was working, when I started working as a very young lawyer and we were
00:25:53
Speaker
you know, thinking of cases to bring in the human rights clinic in Chile, and we would just think so hard, like, here's the victim, how how can we, you know, do something about this? And and i I would, I feel very proud of of being a young lawyer and having that interest and motivation. And and it's, to me, it's like,
00:26:17
Speaker
It's not different from what I'm doing now, 20 years later. there' Once again, this is coming from a band that I like, um but it's really coming from sort of like people only change to become more like themselves. And I think that's also how I i see you know my young self 20 years, even 30 years as a student.
00:26:39
Speaker
thinking about this the same issues without fully understanding what they mean and how they can be implemented and now being a ah scholar and and and a full-time member here at the law school, the faculty, and thinking about the same issues with a much you know, richer understanding and and sort of an attitude to work on the same issues. um So both as a young lawyer and an analyst, I don't know if I'm a senior person, but someone who has already done a few things that I feel as proud as I was when I was 20 something.
00:27:13
Speaker
That's wonderful. i I love the idea of thinking about this as as an evolution of what was really a core aspect of your identity, you know the focus on social justice and how that sort of carried through your career and now manifests in slightly different ways as a more senior professional, but but that thread runs all the way through your career. And and that's just fantastic. It's wonderful. Thank you. um Before we wrap up, Jorge, let me just ask you, is there anything else you'd like to add? um I mean, there's so much, but there's like one minute, right? We just have a minute. That's right. i i'm i'm just I'm just grateful. And I think this is a good opportunity to, you know, in a conversation with you, um as the dean, you know, someone who is really
00:28:02
Speaker
leading the law school and and and and i'm someone i'm I'm grateful being part of this community for the things that we do, for the things that we stand for.
Reflections and Future Aspirations
00:28:13
Speaker
um <unk> There's so much work that needs to be done, especially when you're an international lawyer and we're living in these times.
00:28:21
Speaker
And just to be a reminder of where you know our ethos and the the things that we have done so that once again that informs and kind of illuminates the places and the things that we want to do, the places where we want to go, the places we want to you know, the things that we want to achieve really as a as a community, as a law school. So thank you for being a, you know, the leader of this project um and looking forward for the yes, I think, you know, wherever is coming that it needs to be better than what we've already done. Well, I i appreciate that and and I share your sense of gratitude to be part of this community that is really
00:29:02
Speaker
um devoted to thinking about how the law impacts the lives of real people. And and that is sort of in the institutional DNA of of the law school. So ah you're very much a central part of that. And and i'm I'm so grateful, too, to have you as a colleague. But ah lastly, grateful for you to come on this this podcast and talk with us about your incredible experience. ah So thank you very much for joining us, Jorge, and ah really appreciate the conversation. Take care.
00:29:33
Speaker
Thank you, you too. The Power of Attorney is a production of Rutgers Law School. With two locations just minutes from New York City and Philadelphia, Rutgers Law offers the prestige and reputation of a large, nationally known university with a personal, small campus experience. Learn more today by visiting us at law.redkers.edu.